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More Democrats Call for a Ceasefire · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Pardon Turkey, Jon Lovett.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: That's pretty bad.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Leave it in.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: On today's show, President Biden celebrates his birthday with more
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: bad polling. That's such a dickish way to say it. Sorry.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: That's how he feels about it.
• 0:41
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: I'm just telling the truth. Trump tries to wrap up
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: the primary in Iowa, and Fox News kicks off the
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: holiday season with a war on woke Christmas. Then ProPublica's
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Andrea Bernstein joins to talk about Supreme Court ethics in
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: her new podcast on right-wing judicial activist Leonard Leo. And later...
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: We inaugurate a new Thanksgiving tradition. We're going to pardon
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: some of our own turkeys.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: All right. But first, President Biden said Monday a deal
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: that would release hostages held by Hamas is close. And
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: this comes as the number of House Democrats calling for
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: a ceasefire has grown to 37. A group that now
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: includes three Jewish Democrats, Becca Balint, Sarah Jacobs and Jamie Raskin.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Over in the Senate, Jeff Merkley became the second senator
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: to call for a ceasefire, and Bernie Sanders released a
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: statement saying that, quote, not one penny should go to
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Israel until they stop the bombardment, allow displaced Gazans to
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: return home, and pledge not to pursue a long-term blockade
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: or reoccupation of Gaza. Other Senate Democrats, like John Ossoff,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: who's also Jewish, and Chris Van Hollen, have also started
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: to talk about putting conditions on the $ 14 billion in
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: aid that Biden has requested for Israel. Let's listen.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Mr.
• 1:52
  Speaker 6: President, I fervently want Israel to succeed both in defeating
• 1:57
  Speaker 6: the threat posed by Hamas and as a historic effort
• 2:02
  Speaker 6: to secure a safe homeland for Jews. But I do
• 2:07
  Speaker 6: not accept that the total deprivation of millions of innocent
• 2:12
  Speaker 6: civilians is necessary for Israel to secure its objectives, or
• 2:19
  Speaker 6: in the national interest of the United States?
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: How Israel conducts this operation is important. And so many
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: of us learned just a few weeks ago when one
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: of the White House national security spokesperson was asked if
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: the United States has any red lines. And the answer
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: was no, which means anything goes. And that cannot be
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: consistent with American interests and American values.
• 2:44
  Speaker 7: So that's why we're asking these questions.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: It can't be consistent because that's not the policy for
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: any other country that the United States provides military aid to.
• 2:51
  Speaker 7: That's right.
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: Look, we have a policy of trying to make sure
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: that our funds are used in a manner that advances
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: our interests and our values. And if you look at
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: what's happening right now in Gaza, the desperate humanitarian crisis,
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: clearly that's more that could be done.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: So Biden wrote a Washington Post op-ed this weekend where
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: he again rejected calls for a ceasefire at this time.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: And Punchbowl reported on Monday that the administration won't accept
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: conditions on aid for Israel. Tommy, let's start with the
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: calls for a ceasefire. What's your take on these ceasefire
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: statements that have been coming out from Democrats? I know
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: you just talked to Congressman Raskin right before the show.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: So just so folks know, I mean, the ceasefire deal
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: that is reportedly being negotiated between the U.S., Israel and
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: Hamas would have Hamas release at least 50 women and
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: children being held hostage in exchange for maybe like a
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: five-day ceasefire. There's a lot of details in there about
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: sequencing and there's speculation that Israel would then release Palestinian
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: women and children in Israeli prisons. But that's kind of
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: what's being reported on. You're right, though, that the calls
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: in Congress for a ceasefire are definitely growing. And it's
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: not just the most progressive Democrats who have been more
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: willing to criticize Israel. It's more kind of normie Democrats.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: And Congressman Raskin's name jumped out at me because he's progressive,
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: he's Jewish, and he's also just an incredibly thoughtful guy.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: So we talked briefly this afternoon. I mean, he wanted
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: to stress that he is in no way trying to
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: micromanage the negotiations or the administrations. He basically said the
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: specifics of what talking about are up to Tony Blinken
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: and the Biden team. But what he wanted to do
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: was to speak out, to lay out some moral and
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: political imperatives, and just move the conversation away from this
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: kind of false binary that you're seeing of, you know,
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: people declaring that you need to care for one side
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: or the other, Palestinian or Israeli. He wanted to just
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: focus on the common humanity. And so I personally, like,
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure how you can not call for a
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: ceasefire if your goal is getting back hostages and reducing
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: civilian deaths. I think the odds are that the way
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: you'll get the most hostages home is going to be
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: through some sort of negotiated deal. The way you'll protect
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: the most civilians in Gaza is through getting more aid
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: and reducing airstrikes. But Congressman Raskin's coming from a place
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: of he has constituents that have lost family members in Gaza.
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: He's met with the families of hostages. And so he's
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: just focusing on the humanity of it all and valuing
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: and protecting lives.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: What do you make of Biden's writing that op-ed, rejecting
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: calls for a ceasefire again. Do you think partly this is, like,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: he's in the middle of these negotiations over a potential
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: temporary ceasefire in exchange for hostages? Do you think that, like,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: what's the administration's reasoning for continuing to reject calls for
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: a ceasefire or more public pressure on Bibi as this
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: war continues?
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: I don't know. It continues to frustrate me enormously. I mean,
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: what Biden has said is he supports humanitarian pauses, which
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: are sort of like brief cessations and hostilities to allow
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: aid in or people out. But also we know that
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: the Biden administration is trying to help broker the broader
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: hostage exchange deal that I mentioned at the top. So
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: obviously they would be in support of some sort of
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: ceasefire deal that got out dozens of hostages. So maybe
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: they're just trying not to get ahead of the Israelis.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: That has been kind of their approach to this situation
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: from day one, just to kind of back everything Israel
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: does in public and then sort of push and prod
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: them in private. But I agree with you. I mean,
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: the op-ed was a little bit muddled because it was
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: about Ukraine and Israel. And I assumed they kind of
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: mixed those threats together because we were going to build
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: up to a point about the need to get Congress
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: to pass more aid, but it didn't even really do that.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: So I'm a little bit confused by the messaging there.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: Love it. What was your reaction to seeing a number
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: of Jewish Democrats in Congress call for either a ceasefire
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: or conditioning aid to Israel?
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: Well, first thing is that it does seem like when
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: you use the term ceasefire, it gets a lot of
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: coverage and attention, but people seem to use the term differently.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's, it's, I believe there should.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Be a ceasefire.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: The violence should stop immediately. It's, it's a moral abomination,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: which it is. Other times, these are calls for a
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: ceasefire conditioned on hostage release, conditioned on, uh, other changes
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: on the ground. But regardless, like what I appreciate both
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: from Bernie's statement, from Ossoff's statements, from all of these
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: statements is they do have a kind of moral clarity.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: And to the point Tommy made are moving away from
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: this binary. It's like very heartening to see, you know,
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: in many ways, I think sometimes like American politics puts
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: America at the center of every debate, right? And like
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: calling for a ceasefire is like a bank shot, right?
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Like it's U.S.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Members of Congress calling on another country to heed their
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: call or calling on Biden to do something. I do
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: find the debate about conditioning aid to be really interesting
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: and important. It was something that was sort of off
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: the table for a really long time for political reasons.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: But I think it's a very good thing that it's
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: a part of the conversation. Again, you know, this is
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: not like the idea of telling people a country to
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: which we are giving billions of dollars of aid, that
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: we expect certain things in return for giving that aid,
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: I don't think should be seen as some like lefty concept.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: It was something George H.W. Bush did when he made
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: aid conditional on not expanding settlements. So it doesn't have to,
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: first of all, it is something that has happened in
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: the past. It is something that has worked in the past.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: And even just that one example makes clear it's not
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: like some far-fetched lefty from the river to the sea thing.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Like it can be an important way the U.S. helps
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: achieve its goals. And look, I don't understand the difficult,
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: complex result of what it would mean to condition aid,
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: how something like that would be implemented. But I think
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: the fact that the politics are changing is important. And
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: I think in a common sense way, providing this aid,
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: I think, should mean we are in a position to
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: make demands of what we view not only as Israel's interests,
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: but our interests in the region.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, I also think that the debate that is
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: coming up around the request for aid to Israel is
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: sort of like a key moment in this, because say,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: you know, every Democrat in Congress or most Democrats in
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: Congress started calling for a ceasefire. Say they were able
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: to pass a resolution in the Senate because they probably
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to in the House. Say then Joe
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Biden woke up. This is just imaginary. Say that Joe
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Biden woke up the next day and was like, I'm
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: going to tell Bibi that it's time for a ceasefire.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Netanyahu could say no. I don't want I'm going to
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: do what I want to do. But now that we're
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: talking about sending aid to Israel, that's where we actually
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: have some leverage. And I I don't see how any
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: Democrat could just vote for really any member of Congress.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: But I don't expect much from Republicans could just vote
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: to give Bibi Netanyahu. someone who does not even have
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: majority support in his own country that has just been
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: through this horrific terrorist attack, doesn't even have majority support there,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: a blank check to continue a war where he has
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: not told us what his objectives are, where he has
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: not proven that he's trying to avoid civilian casualties, where he,
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: as of this recording, still hasn't brought back any of
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: the hostages? It just seems bizarre to me. And again, Tommy,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: how likely is it that you think Congress can actually
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: impose conditions? And if they did, do you think that
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: could force Israel to change its approach?
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: I mean, at the moment, I think it's unlikely because
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: Republicans will probably uniformly oppose this proposal, which kills it
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: in the House. And then even among Democrats, I'm not
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: sure there's consensus opinion on what conditioning aid means.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: I agree with Lovett.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: I think it's a no-brainer. It's basically a diplomacy. It's
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: like a carrot and a stick approach to get someone
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: to do what you want to do. But Biden is
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: asking for $ 14. 3 billion in additional funding.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: The U.S.
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: Already provides $ 3. 8 billion in security assistance a year to Israel.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: It does, to me, seems incredibly reasonable to say this
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: aid will only be provided to If the IDF agrees
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: to some basic standards to reduce civilian casualties, which the
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: level of civilian casualties in Gaza right now is intolerable
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: and indefensible. And I think, you know, you could also
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: argue like these weapons must only go to uniform members
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: of the military because recently there was this right wing
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: national security minister of Israel, this guy named Itmar Ben-Gavir.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: He posted a photo of himself handing out rifles to
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: members of these like civilian militia groups. you would want
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: to make sure that these weapons, these rifles aren't being
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: used in the West Bank or given to extremist settlers.
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: But back to the broader problem, like you mentioned at
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: the top, John, I mean, Bernie wants this to go
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: much further. He's saying the US should only give Israel
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: more assistance if they rein in airstrikes, promise to allow
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: displaced Gazans to return home, promise not to reoccupy Gaza,
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: free settlement expansion. So these are conditions that go far
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: beyond the current conflict and get to the core underlying
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: tensions and challenges that you know, that are the driving
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: sort of the tensions here. But, you know, again, to
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: your point, like there's no guarantee that Netanyahu is going
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: to listen, even if these bills are passed. Like I
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: do think, though, the fact that Congress is having this
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: conversation is a major inflection point in U.S. policy towards
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: Israel that goes beyond frustration with this military campaign in Gaza.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: Because part of my frustration at times with President Biden's
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: messaging and policy towards Israel is I feel like it
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: gets the talking points don't evolve. We're still talking about
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: Israel in the same way we were decades ago. But
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: the reality is this current government is super right-wing, ultra-nationalist, ultra-Orthodox.
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of extremists in this coalition. And Congress
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: seems to be updating its view to reflect that reality
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: faster than the White House is.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: The two things that I took away from it were one,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that, like, what's happening in Congress, what Bernie
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: is saying, what Asif is saying, what a lot of
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: these members are saying. It has a moral clarity and
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: it gives a place for progressives to go that's somewhere between,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: I think, a more anti-Israel position and then some of
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: the kind of strident right wing or kind of hyper
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: pro-Israel positions that don't reflect the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: The other piece of this, and maybe this is glib,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: but it's very clear that, like, Whatever is going on
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: behind the scenes, at one point, even Netanyahu referred to
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: the fact that Biden facing his own political pressures. And
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: there is like a little bit of like good cop,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Zionist cop, you know, that like political pressure from Democrats,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: including Democrats that support Israel, like that will carry a
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: lot of weight.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean, I appreciated that Ossoff and others
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: are making the argument that like, look, you can argue
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: that a blank check to Bibi is not in the
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: interest of a secure Israel or getting the hostages back.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Or or achieving any of the aims that like the
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Israeli people hope that they achieve as well.
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Like it's just not this idea because I saw a
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: couple of members of I think I saw Congressman Gottheimer say, oh,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: if you condition if you condition the aid at all,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: that's just help. You're helping Hamas. You're helping Hamas. And
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: it's like, well, that's crazy.
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Like, I don't think that is not true.
• 14:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: Listen, I just, a lot of people are listening to
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: this and frustrated and being like, why don't you call
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: on Hamas to release the hostages? Why don't you call
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: on Hamas to renounce terrorism? Like, I do all those things, right?
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: They're a terrorist organization.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: They're evil.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: What happened on October 7th is indefensible. Where I'm coming
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: from on this now, though, is I just firmly believe
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: that if your priority is protecting civilian lives in Gaza
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: and getting hostages back, the way you do it is
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: through diplomacy and and a negotiated agreement. And I really,
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: really worry the volume of airstrikes that the IDF has
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: been conducting in the Gaza Strip is unprecedented. You're talking
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: about like a year's worth of airstrikes on Afghanistan happening
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: in a month in a place half the size of Manhattan.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: Like I worry that's going to kill the hostages as
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: well as civilians in Gaza, which is why you want
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: to hit pause on this, negotiate and see if you
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: can get people back.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: And it's not going to end up creating a safer
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Israel or a safer Gaza or a safer Middle East,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: you know, like, and that's something that's in everyone's interest.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: And all of these Jewish Democrats and a lot of
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: these other Democrats who put out the statements over the
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: weekend specifically said, we agree with the goal of rooting
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: out Hamas, of getting rid of Hamas's leadership, of getting the, like,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: we agree with all of that. This is the way
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: we think we can do that. This is the better
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: way to think we can do that. And look, we
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: used to, I mean, again, I know you guys have
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: talked a lot about sort of the lessons we learned
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: from 9-11, but like we went through all these arguments
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: at post 9-11 and around the Iraq war, like where
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: if you had a difference in strategy on the war
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: and you didn't want to give a blank check, suddenly
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: you were, you know, against the troops and for terrorism
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: and all this bullshit. Yeah.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: Look, in the near term, you can degrade Hamas's military capabilities.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: You can take out its leadership. You can take out
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: the tunnels. You can take out the rockets. But the
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: long term, like you can't bomb the idea of Hamas away.
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: You cannot bomb away the underlying political challenges that led
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: to the creation of Hamas that have led to this movement, right?
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: And that's where I think you're seeing people like Raskin
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: and others talk about the need for the long-term negotiations
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: to solve the underlying political challenges. And that is the
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: only way in the long run you will get to
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: a peaceful Israel and Palestine living side by side.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you have, even in Raskin's statement, you're referring to
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: just sort of the rebuilding effort that's going to have
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: to take place in Gaza. And the one condition you
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: didn't mention that Bernie also includes in what he would
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: make conditional for aid is peace talks, like the broad
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: peace talks that would have to begin. And like the
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: idea that the U.S. would not make giving a country
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: billions of dollars conditional on the talks that we believe
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: and everyone believes are necessary for the lasting peace in
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: the region, it just doesn't make sense to me.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: I'll just make one more point on the aid package
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: itself and the negotiations in Congress before we move on.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know that this is going to get done
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: because they want to package together Ukraine aid, aid for Israel,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: and border security funding, and potentially policy changes around the border,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: at least that's what Republicans are asking for, all in
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: the same supplemental bill that they want to pass around
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: the holidays, or at least right after the holidays. And
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: if you separate it out, aid for Israel just on
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: its own. And it was a clean $ 14 billion request
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: that they debated. You could see it passing the house
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: because it's Republicans control the house. And then they get
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: some Democrats too, especially more moderate conservative Democrats. And then
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: you're right. Like you could see it past the Senate
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: as well, because again, you have all the Republicans supporting
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: it and you probably get enough Democrats that support it,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: even if a bunch of progressive Democrats said no. So
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: you could probably pass Israel aid on its own, but
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: you throw in Ukraine and Now you have a bunch
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: of Republicans in both houses that don't want Ukraine aid.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: So if you lose those votes, plus you lose the
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: votes of the Democrats who don't want to give a
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: blank check to Israel, to Bibi Netanyahu, and then you
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: throw in Republicans demanding border policy changes. Like, I just
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: don't know that any of this is going to get done.
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: Let's just be honest. A bill that's $ 106 billion, some
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: for the border, most for foreign countries, foreign militaries, is
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: wildly unpopular.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Wildly unpopular. I mean, it's just.
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: If you pulled the side of a random voter and said,
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: what do you think about spending $ 100 billion this way
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: instead of any other way, they're probably not going to
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: support this. So yeah, I'm with you. It's challenging.
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• 19:42
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: In addition to all those challenges, Joe Biden also turned
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: 81 on Monday. And what a birthday it was for
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: the first time since 2019. 2019, NBC's poll has the
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: president trailing Donald Trump 46 to 44 percent. Only 40
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: percent of voters approve of Biden's job performance. Fifty seven
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: percent disapprove. It's the worst rating of his presidency, driven
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: in part by a huge drop in his approval among
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: 18 to 34 year olds, which is down from 46
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: percent in NBC's September poll. to 31% now. Biden's also
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: getting record low ratings on foreign policy, low ratings on
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: handling Gaza. Biden's age continues to be a concern to voters,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: though he did try to joke about that again on
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: his birthday. Let's listen.
• 20:25
  Speaker 8: And by the way, it's my birthday today and they
• 20:28
  Speaker 8: can actually sang birthday music.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: I just want you to know it's difficult turning 60.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Difficult. He also, when he was doing the turkey part
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: in said that the first one was 75 years ago,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: and he said, don't worry, I wasn't there. That's funny.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: But then he went on to confuse Taylor Swift and
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Britney Spears. So that's tough. So you win some, you
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: lose some.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: Who hasn't done that?
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: You win some, you lose some. Before we get to
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: the age conversation, for the hundredth time, what did you
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: guys think of the NPC poll in general? Love it?
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: It was a pretty dismal poll. I will say, though, like,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: You know, we're pulling out the Biden age question. And
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: I would like to just point out that more broadly,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: it's awful in a bunch of other ways, too. It's
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: worth pointing out one number that really stuck out to me.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Forty seven percent of registered voters say they prefer a
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Republican controlled Congress to 45 percent that prefer Democrat. And
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: I think they should. That is it. That to me, like, look,
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: we can talk about Biden's 40 percent approval rating, not
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: where you want it to be. But the fact that
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: this right now, given what we have seen over the
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: last year with this Congress that right now in a poll,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: 47% to 45%, people basically flip a coin, don't give
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: a fuck which party controls Congress, tells you. I think
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: you step back and blur your eyes and you see
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: a pissed off country that's not fully engaged on the
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: substance of the issues and not keyed in to exactly
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: what kind of threat Republican control in Washington would pose.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I almost saw that as good news, oddly.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Because it's one of the first polls that has showed
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Republicans leading in the generic ballot. And it makes me
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: wonder about the sample and about, look, we could, we're
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: not going to unskew polls here, but there's a lot,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: there's non-response bias is a thing. Non-response bias is when
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: like one side is getting horrible media coverage. And then
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: a lot of times those voters just don't, don't answer questions.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean that there's actual shift in support.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: It's just like who you're getting to answer the polls.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: And so I'm sort of wondering if something like that's
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: going on with this poll.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: That number was not that number is worse than it
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: was before, but not by much. It's just sort of
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: part of a slide down.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Well, that's still just that's the I mean, you're going
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: to get a divided country to like you just like
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: control of Congress. Even even if Biden didn't have his
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: age issues, even if Gaza wasn't happening, like you would
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: still be like just a 50 50 country when you
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: get to the electorate, which is really tough. But yeah, no,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: it's not good. It's not good. Tommy, any any thoughts
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: on some of the numbers?
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: I think you guys nailed it. I mean, you know,
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: like you turn on the TV and all you see
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: is horrifying images out of, you know, Ukraine and now Gaza. So,
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: of course, you know, I mean, Joe Biden, Joe Biden
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: doesn't have like a magic fix it switch that he
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: could flip if he wanted that he hasn't. But I
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: think what it reflects is people are pissed off. They
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: feel like the country's on the wrong track and things
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: feel very unsettled around the world. And that's just that's
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: the nature of the job. It's really hard.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and just on Gaza, because they went pretty deep
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: in this poll on Gaza, they asked about funding for Israel.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Voters approved of sending aid to Israel, 55-41 in favor.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: They also approved of sending aid to Gaza, 58-36, but
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: even more. But 49% of Democrats oppose sending aid to Israel.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: They asked, is Israel justified in what they're doing right now,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: or have they gone too far? 47% of voters say justified,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: 30% say too far. But when you ask Democrats, 51%
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: of Democrats think Israel has gone too far and only
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: 27% say that it's justified. So it really is an
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: issue that splits the Democratic Party, even if there's majority
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: support in the country, which is particularly difficult for Democrats.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: And in terms of issue salience, they asked people, is
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: there an issue that you feel so strongly about that
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: you would vote for or against a candidate based on
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: this issue? Number one is democracy. 19% chose democracy. Number
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: two is abortion, 18%. Immigration, 14%. Don't think we're getting
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: a lot of those. Guns, 9%. And then Gaza popped
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: up as 5%. And just in case, you know, they
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: did approvals of different figures and organizations. They did poll Hamas.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Hamas only has 1% approval in the electorate, 81% disapproved.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: So I guess that's good. We like that.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: But they haven't, right, but that's before, you know, Hamas
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: got the bin Laden bump.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that the Bin Laden standing on TikTok was
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: happening during this poll, so they didn't quite capture it yet.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: That's right. It takes a while for that kind of
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: a message to really resonate and see it in the numbers.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be testing it in a few weeks.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: Hamas is beating Chris Christie in Iowa, is my.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Take on it.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: I do wonder on the democracy numbers, what percentage of
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: those are Democrats who are worried about Trump destroying our
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: democracy and Trump supporters thinking that the election was stolen.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: You never know.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: It's probably a potpourri.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Well, we do know that, though, because there was polling
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: that showed that there was some huge percentage of people
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: concerned about democracy, but it was more Republicans than Democrats.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: That's right. That's right.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: So, you know, not a great poll.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: So, and again, why we keep going on about these polls,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: because a lot of discussion after the New York Times poll,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: it's one poll, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All the polls.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: All the polls are like this. And again, we also
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: say polls are a snapshot in time, but trends are important.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: And the trends of these polls... especially the trend of
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: the NBC poll, which back in August had Biden up
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: on Trump by four points. I think it was 49-45,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: and then it was tied in September, and now it's this.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: So not a great trend, but, you know, year to go.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Two more headlines from the weekend that I know the
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Biden folks must have been psyched to see. In the
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Washington Post, quote, Biden campaign works to ease Democratic anxiety
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: over reelection chances. Classic of the genre. And in Politico, quote,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: Biden campaign facing heat over plans to deal with age.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Anything you guys think the campaign can actually do to
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: ease those anxieties about age or anything else beyond what
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: they're already doing, which is Biden's out there joking about
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: his age. He's doing a lot. He's traveling a lot. He's,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: you know, he's communicating a lot. Like, what else? What's
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: going on here?
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: One thing you could do is take one of these
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: anonymous high dollar donors, march them to the center of
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Lafayette Square and.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: Cut their fucking heads off. Just send a message. Send
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: a message to the donors.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: It's a class warfare argument. So it's a good message.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: And it will let all these anonymous donors.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: I do not advocate violence against any supporters.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: If these anonymous donors, if these Divano's donors have such
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: really powerful feelings that they are feeling the anxiety and
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: they're not getting the answer they want from mommy and
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: daddy at the DNC, they don't need to go run
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: to Uncle Politico and say how mad they are at
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: their parents. Because like Biden's age, It is his biggest liability.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: It could cost us the White House and perhaps America.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: That's all true. That's absolutely true. But like these individual
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: sort of paroxysms of anxiety do nothing to address or
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: change the fundamental situation that we're in. Open to positive pitches,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: open to answers. What I am sort of done reading
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: is another donor saying they called a friend at the
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: DNC and their concerns were dismissed. Because if you call
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: somebody up that's working all day trying to figure out
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: how to elect Joe Biden, and you're just some rich asshole,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: be like, I'm worried about his age. He's like, yeah, yeah,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: us too. Call you later.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? I would just like to
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: explain to people why we're in this situation, because I'm
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: sure there's some people with anxiety who do not want
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: my co-host to put them to death in Lafayette Park.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, not listeners.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Some of them are don't, but some of them are
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: probably thinking, well, I'm worried too.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: We're all worried.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: Worried all the fucking time.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: I haven't had a solid shit in a month and
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: a half.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, that doesn't seem like it's related to Biden. Plus,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I've been reading the news. Jesus Christ.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: What, it's our last show for Thanksgiving. Gobble, gobble, bitches.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: Hey, I'm going to log off. I'll see you guys later.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: So, you know, we've said this a bunch before, but like,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: I think the time, like, there's either Joe Biden steps
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: down or Joe Biden doesn't step down. That's right. In
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: the Joe Biden doesn't step down scenario, you're going to
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: need a challenger. We got one now, Dean Phillips. In
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: this poll, you know who's beating him by eight points
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: in the Democratic primary? Marianne Williamson. She's at 12. Dean's
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: at four. So that one's not working out so well.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: You want Gavin Newsom to run? Go talk to Gavin Newsom.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: See if he's going to run.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he fixed the highway fast.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: You did fix the highway. You want Gretchen Whitmer to run?
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Go talk to her. You want Josh Shapiro to run?
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Go talk to her. No one's going to run? Go
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: run yourself. Seriously, there's just not, there's only so many
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: things you can do. You need a candidate to run
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: against Joe Biden first. The Democratic Party is not preventing,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: there's no magical DNC that's preventing these candidates from running.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: They're making their own choices. If you want them to
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: make another choice, go talk to them. Then there's Joe
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: Biden stepping down, right? Like, he's certainly not listening to
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: all these newspapers.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he sees the newspapers.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Some of his very favorite columnists and TV hosts have
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: been saying this. That's not working. David Altshuler went out there. Yeah. Yeah,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: speaking of Lafayette Square.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Speaking of Lafayette Square. He went out. There's a news
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: cycle about that. And then where are we? Nothing happened.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Nothing really happened. So it's like, again, it's Joe Biden's
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: going to make a decision. Yeah. a lot of the
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: filing deadlines for primaries are have have passed more about
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: to pass in the next coming week. So, again, unless
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden wakes up tomorrow morning or next week or
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: probably at the latest next month and says, I'm too
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: worried about the polls. Then he's running. And in that case,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: it's like, hey, all hands on deck because fucking Donald
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Trump could win the presidency.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: Poor David Axelrod's got to wake up in the morning,
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: open his New York Times, start reading his Maureen Dowd column.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: And it's like, David Axelrod is not a prick. It's like, oh, well,
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: you know, that settles that. That's not an ideal sentence
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: to read about yourself.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: And he's not.
• 30:17
  Speaker 9: It's true.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: He's not a prick.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: He's absolutely not. But when you're not a prick, you
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: definitely don't want to read about how you're not a
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: prick in the newspapers. That's not a fun way to
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: learn the news.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Right. If it's a question that's being answered, something's gone
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: wrong for you.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Axe has all kinds of weaknesses. He'll be the
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: first to admit. I'm sure the Biden people aren't too
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: happy with him, but he's not a prick.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: One of the nicer guys I know.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Well, one of the nicer people. Not a prick. Maybe
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: he's wrong about Biden. Maybe all the anxiety is for nothing.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: But everyone, I think it's all coming from a good place.
• 30:45
  Speaker 9: Everyone.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Everyone. Everyone's deeply concerned. And it's not just because it's
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: like Democrats who want to win. Democrats, Republicans who are
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: scared for the country that don't like Trump.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Journalists and two drinks.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Journalists and two drinks. The whole country is on edge.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: We do not want Donald Trump to win again. So
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: that's where all the anxiety is coming from. Meanwhile, Donald Trump,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: the leading contender for the presidency at this point. He
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: sounded as presidential as ever at a rally in Iowa
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: over the weekend that was short on substance and long
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: on crazy.
• 31:17
  Speaker 5: He was with four hookers. You think that was good
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: that night to go up and tell my wife, it's
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: not true, darling.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: I love you very much.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: It's not true.
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: Actually, that one she didn't believe because she said he's
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: a germaphobe.
• 31:28
  Speaker 7: He's not into that, you know?
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: He's not into golden showers, as they say they call them.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: He's not.
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: He's strong. I know him very well. President Xi of China.
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: And he's standing there. You know, he's a fierce person. Now,
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: the press doesn't like it when I say good things
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: about him.
• 31:47
  Speaker 7: But, you know, what can I say?
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: He runs 1.4 billion people with an iron hand. Our
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: leader is a stupid person.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Our leader can't get off this stage.
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: You see this stage? When he's finished with a speech,
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: by the time whatever it is he's taken wears.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Off, That's just a spry, sharp individual who could really
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: right this ship and probably bring peace to the Middle East, right?
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: Really unintentionally missed a revealing comment there when he was
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: talking about the golden shower video when he said, that
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: one she didn't believe.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: What were the other ones? Wow.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Wow, Tommy, good point.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: Good point.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: Nice close read.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: She's believed several of the allegations.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Some of which judges have believed as well and juries.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: When I saw this speech, it was also like one
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: of the criticisms, jokes aside about murdering donors in public squares.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: The point that like, why aren't we doing more to
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: make this about Trump and make this about Trump's age issues?
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: And I think like, actually, you're starting to see that.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: And I think that's very good. But it is just
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: a reminder that like we do have to point out
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: that like people are concerned about optics. You see all
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: these stories about Joe Biden and people go to pains,
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: I think, to truthfully say, I have been in meetings
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: with him. He can hold his own. He is completely
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: and totally mentally all there. He is a ferocious as
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: like as an interrogator during briefings. He just seems old
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: and he seems frail. So he is. He is fit,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: but doesn't seem fit to people when they see him
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: on television. Meanwhile, you have Trump.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: So it's a perception more.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: It's a perception. And then you have Trump. Trump, who
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: we all know, including a lot of his biggest supporters,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: that he is mentally and emotionally unfit to do the job.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Biggest supporters and people who worked closely with him at
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: the highest levels of the White House over and saw
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: him every single day.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: That was a Washington Post headline that came out today.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: Most of Trump's former aides no longer support him.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: And yet he is, I think, more energetic on the stump.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: And so.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: He's got that crazy energy.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, he does. And by the way, we have no
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: idea what's going on in the fucking green room before
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: he goes out there. But when he says things like,
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: I wonder what happens when what he's taking wears off.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: There have been many reports over the years that Donald
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Trump is not afraid of putting a little pep.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: In his step. Whatever he's using, let's give Joe some
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: of that.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, share.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: I will say the post headline about the speech was, vulgarities, insults,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: and baseless attacks, which is a completely accurate description of
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: the rally, of Trump's speech, of the speeches that introed Trump,
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: which were also batshit crazy. But the whole thing gives
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: me some 2016 vibes in terms of what matters most
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: to voters. Tommy, I think you were talking about this
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: a little last episode, too. It's just like, I really
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: keep wanting to separate out these are things that Trump
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: is going to do to affect your life if he
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: gets a second term versus... Oh, could you believe he
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: talked about the pee tapes or the hookers, which again,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: I found entertaining and crazy, but, um, I don't think
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: that's going to move the, I don't think it's going
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: to move the needle.
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: I don't think it's gonna move the needle. I also
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: think like, it's kind of why those people are all
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: there at these rallies, like their, their body and their
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: fun for them and their entertaining. And like, like the,
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: the golden shower little bit there, it was weird, but
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: it was pretty funny and everyone laughed in the room
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: and like, no one thought less of him seemingly that
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: was a supporter of his to begin with.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: So yeah.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: I don't know that calling out his vulgarity is the
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: path to winning. I do think the Biden people are
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: basically approaching the age issue in a couple of ways,
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: which is to say, hey, look at us going to
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: war zones all the time. We're on top of it. Two,
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: Trump is old too, and he keeps saying loopy things
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: like confusing who's president of the United States, saying it's
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Obama all the time. And then three, but we have
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: a better record. Look at what we're doing. Let's make
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: other issues more salient. I think it's an open question
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: about whether you can convince people who have decided that
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: you're too old that you're actually not. I do think
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: you can probably make other things the more higher on
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: their priority list in terms of when they're voting than age. But,
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: you know, it's going to take some effort.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's just like, I don't know that
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: you can make Biden seem younger, but you can point
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: out the ways Donald Trump seems quite old himself and
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: then make it a referendum between, you know, good grandpa
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: versus evil grandpa.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, it's not just old. This guy is... Dangerous.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: Dangerous and an idiot.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: You know, there's both. I mean, like, some of the
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: stuff is just... It doesn't sound like he is losing
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: a step necessarily, though I think he is, Donald Trump. But, like, he...
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: In 2016, he was saying shit that made people be like,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: this guy can't lead the country. What, are you crazy?
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: By the way, some osteopath put out a statement saying
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: that Donald Trump is as spry and fit as ever,
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: and he's losing weight because of diet and exercise? Excuse me.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: From one Ozempic bro to another, okay, diet and exercise.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Good luck.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: Just throwing out all kinds of.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: Just an unfounded sense.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: See what happens when you're not here in studio, Tommy?
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: This is like a defamation potluck today. This is great.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: Trump also got some good and bad legal news. A
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: state court judge in Colorado ruled that Trump did incite
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: an insurrection on January 6th. You might be wondering, well,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: then what's the good news? Well, the judge rejected the
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: argument that the 14th Amendment prohibits Trump from appearing on
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: the ballot because he incited said insurrection. She basically ruled
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: that she wasn't sure the framers meant the provision applies
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: to former presidents. Lovett, you talked to law professor Larry
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Tribe about this. I don't know how long ago, some
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: point on this show. Did you see this coming? What
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: was that?
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, here's the thing. Just two top legal minds
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: going back and forth, me and Lawrence Tribe. But like
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: my take on this was like, look, the people at CREW,
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: which is the organization doing this, like they're incredibly smart,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: progressive people. caring people trying to figure out how you
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: face a fascist menace, which I like completely respect. But
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: like my non-lawyer view, just looking at it from the
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: outside was like, we're not going to get Trump on
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: the fine print in the constitution. Like the idea that
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: like a judge is going to say, yeah, like it
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: turns out we, I can use my power to disenfranchise
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: the millions of people who want to vote for Donald
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Trump in a kind of never before explored circumstance for
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: the using of the this clause of the 14th amendment
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: But so, you know this judge said no it could
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: still go further But of course the place it will
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: end is the Supreme Court regardless of the legal merits
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: which I am obviously not expert in to me like
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: it always felt like a distraction because We can't decide
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: what judges are gonna do with a case like this.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: We can't make them rule one way or another and
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Regardless of what happens in this one case. There is
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: a rising fascistic Dangerous extreme right-wing movement that wants to
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: disenfranchise millions of people and seize and control power at
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: all costs We have to beat that we have to
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: beat that and like we got it we got and
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: we got to persuade people to join us in voting
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: to defeat.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: Them and there was a Method of making sure that
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Trump never ran for president again was disqualified and that
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: was convicting him in the Senate which Mitch McConnell decided
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: that he was not going to whip enough Republicans and
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: to do, even though he wanted to. So they blew
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: that play. And now we have Trump running for president again.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: And we also have him being held accountable in courtrooms
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: across the country.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: He's slowly being held more accountable than any person ever
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: has before. He's going to go from never facing a
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: fucking consequence to maybe all the consequences at once.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: And again, though, because this is a democracy and voters
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: have the ultimate decision here, If he gets convicted of
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: those crimes, then it's up to the voters to decide,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: do you want someone convicted of X, Y, and Z
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: crime to become president again?
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: And then it goes from old grandpa versus evil grandpa
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: to old grandpa versus imprisoned grandpa.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Or at least convicted.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: At least convicted.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Out on bail grandpa.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Awaiting sentencing grandpa. Because he is currently out on bail grandpa. Yeah. Finally, finally,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: the war on Christmas, it's back.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: It's back.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: At least according to our boy Jesse Waters, who dedicated
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: an entire segment on his Fox News show last Thursday
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: to complain about all the woke Christmas items on sale
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: at Target. Let's take a listen.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: Gay nutcracker.
• 40:33
  Speaker 8: Complete with a rainbow hat, a trans flag. Full price, $ 12,
• 40:38
  Speaker 8: but right now it's on sale for $ 8. Target also
• 40:41
  Speaker 8: sells Santa ornaments, but Target's Santa is in a wheelchair
• 40:47
  Speaker 8: and is black.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: I think majority of people, parents especially, they can acknowledge
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: that gay Nutcracker and black disabled Santa has gone way
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: too far.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Look, there's... What the fuck? There's so much that divides us.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: I think we can all agree. We can all agree
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: that gay Nutcrackers and black disabled Santa is going too far.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: First of all, people see.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: What are you talking about?
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: The Nutcracker... Listen, I don't care what Target's selling. The
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Nutcracker's been gay from the beginning. All right? That's a
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: gay fucking musical or whatever it is. I don't even
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: remember what it is.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Is it a musical?
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: It's a ballet? Okay, yeah. No, but it's straight? Come on,
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Jesse Waters. You know what the fuck the Nutcracker is?
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: If I don't know, you don't know.
• 41:31
  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: Should I jump in on that?
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: I'm losing it.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sure.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Jump in, Tommy.
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, what I think is pretty remarkable and downright
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: admirable about Fox is if you were an NFL coach
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: and you ran the same play every year for 20 years,
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: you would probably get fired and be unsuccessful. Fox has
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: been running the same play every Christmas for as long
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: as I can remember, for like 4, 8 p.m. hosts ago, right?
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: It was back when we were all laughing at Bill
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: O'Reilly for mistaking a loofah for a sex toy or
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: whatever it was that came out in his court case.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: And they're still doing this shit and it still works
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: and it still gets clicks and people still believe there's
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: a war on Christmas somehow.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was wondering that. That was my question, which
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: is like, did they successfully open a new front in
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: the war on Christmas with this?
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: I think so.
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: It's getting a little boring. I don't know. I even
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: feel like their heart wasn't in it.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: I don't think people are really going to get all
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: riled up over a black Santa in a wheelchair. I
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: don't even know what the problem is. It's still pro-Christmas.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: It's really just anti-black and anti-disabled people.
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it always has been.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: I think that was the point of the segment. Well,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: presumably before, if.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: It was like, we don't have Santa, we're only doing
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: happy holidays. Like the war on Christmas was about how not,
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: that's still a Christmas theme.
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: No, Megyn Kelly famously announced that Santa is white.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: It's the same play. It's the same shit.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: Rinse, repeat, new idiot saying it. No happy holidays. No Santa.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: No inclusivity.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Older, older white man. No inclusivity.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: Of any kind.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: All the nutcrackers are straight.
• 43:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: Everyone's straight. All the Christmas characters are straight.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: The Nutcrackers, they love hot chicks and lacrosse. That's it.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: These Nutcrackers are so incredibly straight. These Nutcrackers, that's all
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: they want.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: The holiday season is full of cishet white characters as
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: far as the eye can see.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: The Nutcrackers watch Yellowstone, and that's it.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: Brown liquor only for fucking nutcrackers. They won't even have
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: a martini because it's a little bit faggy in those
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: tall cups.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: Can we get a studio gag order?
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: What's the process on this? I can stop now.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's honestly, Tommy, you're not here. You can't tell.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: It's fucking crushing in here.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Listen, I can tell.
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: Everyone, I'm at home because I have COVID and I've
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: been subjected to 45 minutes of this. I feel better, honestly.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: Love It thinks it's killing it here. Everyone's got their
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: masks on.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: I hear laughing.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: They're smiling with their eyes. Anyway, a few quick housekeeping
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: notes before we go to break. This week, shop the
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: Crooked Store's Black Friday deals from the comfort of your couch.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: Everything is 20% off, plus you can look out for
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: surprise flash sales all week long. Head to crooked.com slash
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: store to shop and make sure you're signed up for
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: the email list to find out the moment each flash
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: sale starts. Seems like a lot. Pods of America has
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: only two more live shows left in the year. You
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: can catch us in El Cajon on December 7th and
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: San Jose on December 13th. Get your tickets at kirken.com
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: slash events now. And when we come back, Tommy's interview
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: with reporter Andrea Bernstein about Leonard Leo, the Federalist Society,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: and all the ways they're influencing the U.S. court system.
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: I am so excited to welcome to the show today
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: Andrea Bernstein. She is a reporter for NPR and ProPublica,
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: two of the best in the business, as well as
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: the host of the We Don't Talk About Leonard podcast. Andrea,
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: it's great to see you.
• 45:16
  Speaker 9: It's great to see you and talk to you too.
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: So I want to talk about your podcast in one second,
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: but this interview is perfectly timed because the Supreme Court
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: just rolled out a bunch of new ethics guidelines for
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: themselves and Folks might remember that judges like Clarence Thomas
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: have been taking all kinds of lavishly paid vacations by
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: rich donors, and it created a bit of a kerfuffle.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: The court is now saying, essentially, we're going to watchdog ourselves.
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: We'll keep an eye on ourselves. What do you think
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: of these new rules, and do you think they're enforceable?
• 45:52
  Speaker 9: So probably not.
• 45:55
  Speaker 7: The rules have been pretty widely panned by the legal
• 46:00
  Speaker 7: community for a couple of reasons. I've heard the criticism
• 46:03
  Speaker 7: that they say, unlike the federal judge rules, which say
• 46:08
  Speaker 7: a federal judge shall not, they say a justice should not,
• 46:13
  Speaker 7: which is sort of more conditional, that they expressly carve
• 46:18
  Speaker 7: out some permissions for things like fundraising, which I think
• 46:23
  Speaker 7: was understood previously prior to this set of rules that justices.
• 46:26
  Speaker 9: Should not do.
• 46:27
  Speaker 7: However, all that said, I feel like it's a good
• 46:32
  Speaker 7: thing that there are some rules out there. But that said,
• 46:36
  Speaker 7: having a code, I think, means that two things. First
• 46:39
  Speaker 7: of all, I think it means that the Supreme Court
• 46:41
  Speaker 7: lives in the real world. There wouldn't be a code
• 46:43
  Speaker 7: if there wasn't all of this outcry and all of
• 46:45
  Speaker 7: this journalism.
• 46:47
  Speaker 9: So that's a good thing.
• 46:48
  Speaker 7: I think that the accountability to the extent there is some,
• 46:51
  Speaker 7: has to come from public opinion and public pressure and
• 46:55
  Speaker 7: from the journalistic light that's shed on it.
• 46:58
  Speaker 9: So it feels to me like the beginning of a conversation.
• 47:01
  Speaker 7: Like, no, this probably doesn't mean that you can impeach
• 47:05
  Speaker 7: a justice or do any of the things that people
• 47:08
  Speaker 7: might think a code should provide the basis for. But
• 47:11
  Speaker 7: I do think it creates an opportunity for a real
• 47:14
  Speaker 7: discussion about what justices should and shouldn't do. And it's
• 47:17
  Speaker 7: pretty detailed. I mean, I think that there's a lot
• 47:19
  Speaker 7: of things in there about, you know, you shouldn't do,
• 47:21
  Speaker 7: your wife shouldn't do, your spouse shouldn't do. That is
• 47:26
  Speaker 7: really useful to have on paper.
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: Don't storm the Capitol, nor shall your spouse. That's the thing, right?
• 47:34
  Speaker 7: I mean, it's sort of like, I mean, I've covered
• 47:37
  Speaker 7: so much, you know, Trump legal stuff.
• 47:40
  Speaker 9: Stuff forever.
• 47:41
  Speaker 7: And I feel like, you know, a long time ago,
• 47:43
  Speaker 7: like 2017, 2018, people were asking, OK, is there a
• 47:46
  Speaker 7: crime that he's committed? Now Trump is charged with 91 felonies,
• 47:51
  Speaker 7: but that hasn't solved the problem of Trump. And I
• 47:54
  Speaker 7: think that shows you, you know, what it means to
• 47:56
  Speaker 7: rely too much on a written code versus on trying
• 47:58
  Speaker 7: to sort of enforce norms and change the way people think.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about fundraising and big donors and institutions,
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: because your podcast, we don't talk about Leonard. investigates a
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: guy named Leonard Leo. He's a big Republican muckety-muck. He's
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: a donor. He has been running the Federalist Society for
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: many years. He's part of a bunch of legal advocacy groups.
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: And frankly, I've been in politics a while. He was
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: on my radar screen, but he was one of a
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: handful of people of his ilk that I was aware
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: of and I knew they had influence. But then late
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: last year, there were these jaw-dropping reports about a massive,
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: massive donation to a new organization that Leonard Leo had created.
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
• 48:46
  Speaker 7: Well, there was the donation to this organization called the
• 48:51
  Speaker 7: Marble Freedom Trust, which Leonard Leo exclusively controls, for $ 1.
• 48:57
  Speaker 9: 6 billion. With a B. With a B. Right, billion
• 49:01
  Speaker 9: with a B. The largest... political.
• 49:04
  Speaker 7: Dark money contribution at the time in U.S.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: History.
• 49:09
  Speaker 7: And here was Leonard Leo, was somebody that people barely knew.
• 49:15
  Speaker 7: I mean, one of the things about doing this podcast
• 49:17
  Speaker 7: is I would say, OK, we're doing a podcast about
• 49:19
  Speaker 7: Leonard Leo. And people would be like, who? And then
• 49:22
  Speaker 7: I would say, oh, yeah, he was the guy who
• 49:23
  Speaker 7: made the list for Trump of potential Supreme Court nominees.
• 49:27
  Speaker 9: And people would say, oh, yeah, that guy.
• 49:29
  Speaker 7: But that guy had $ 1.
• 49:30
  Speaker 9: 6 billion.
• 49:31
  Speaker 7: And that was sort of the starting point of our research.
• 49:34
  Speaker 9: Who is he? What has he done?
• 49:35
  Speaker 7: And what does he want to do with all of
• 49:37
  Speaker 7: this money?
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: Can you tell listeners who maybe haven't heard of him,
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: what has he accomplished at the federal level? Let's start
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: with the Supreme Court.
• 49:45
  Speaker 7: Clarence Thomas and Leonard Leo became friendly when Clarence Thomas
• 49:50
  Speaker 7: was serving as a judge in the Federal Court of
• 49:53
  Speaker 7: Appeals in Washington, D.C. Leonard Leo, just out of law school,
• 49:57
  Speaker 7: went to work on Clarence Thomas' confirmation. And his job
• 50:01
  Speaker 7: was doing research. And for those of us who remember
• 50:04
  Speaker 7: that or those of us who've studied the history of that,
• 50:08
  Speaker 7: Clarence Thomas's, one of the big part of his efforts
• 50:11
  Speaker 7: was doing negative research on Professor Anita Hill when she
• 50:14
  Speaker 7: came forward with her allegations of sexual harassment. So that
• 50:17
  Speaker 7: was the beginning for Leonard Leo. Fast forward to the
• 50:22
  Speaker 7: Bush administration, George W. Bush, he becomes the outside advisor
• 50:27
  Speaker 7: for confirmations. He basically steers through the nominations of Justice Roberts,
• 50:34
  Speaker 7: Justice Alito, which was contentious at the time.
• 50:36
  Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
• 50:38
  Speaker 7: By that time, he had three members of the U.S.
• 50:41
  Speaker 7: Supreme Court that he had helped to get there. But
• 50:45
  Speaker 7: when Trump came along, Leonard Leo did a pretty bold thing,
• 50:48
  Speaker 7: which is he offered Trump a list of justices that
• 50:52
  Speaker 7: he thought were vetted by the conservative legal community. And
• 50:57
  Speaker 7: Trump said, I will only pick from those lists. And
• 51:00
  Speaker 7: Leonard Leo and Trump both made good on that promise.
• 51:03
  Speaker 7: All of Trump's nominees were Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett were
• 51:07
  Speaker 7: suggested by Leonard Leo and were vetted for not just being,
• 51:12
  Speaker 7: it wasn't just important to Leonard Leo to have conservative justices.
• 51:14
  Speaker 7: It was important for him to have hardline conservatives who
• 51:18
  Speaker 7: would vote in a certain way. And the sort of
• 51:22
  Speaker 7: main thing that we looked at in our podcast was
• 51:26
  Speaker 7: with all of that, appointing six justices to the U.S.
• 51:29
  Speaker 7: Supreme Court, that wasn't just what Leonard Leo did. He
• 51:32
  Speaker 7: built an entire machine to get the right opinions and
• 51:38
  Speaker 7: cases up to the Supreme Court so that they could
• 51:41
  Speaker 7: decide in a way that he favored and that his
• 51:47
  Speaker 7: donors favored.
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: Some right-wing ideologues might be content owning six Supreme Court justices.
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: Not our boy, Lenny. He has done a lot of
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: work at the state level. Can you talk a bit
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: about that? And in particular, I was... kind of jaw
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: dropping discussion of the Missouri plan in the podcast.
• 52:06
  Speaker 7: So, you know, just 20 years ago, Leonard Leo said,
• 52:09
  Speaker 7: I'm going to start working on state Supreme courts. And
• 52:11
  Speaker 7: he went right from, uh, justice Alito and getting him
• 52:14
  Speaker 7: on the U S Supreme court to making a real
• 52:17
  Speaker 7: run at state Supreme courts. And he came out and
• 52:19
  Speaker 7: he said, 90% of cases are decided in state Supreme courts.
• 52:23
  Speaker 7: They went for Missouri because Missouri has a nonpartisan selection
• 52:27
  Speaker 7: system whereby, you know, a panel of lawyers and, uh,
• 52:32
  Speaker 7: justices and, uh, gubernatorial appointees select the next, the, the
• 52:38
  Speaker 7: possible candidates for the next Supreme court justice. And conservatives
• 52:42
  Speaker 7: didn't like this because they felt that it produced candidates
• 52:44
  Speaker 7: that were too centrists, uh, or too left.
• 52:47
  Speaker 9: So they decided to try.
• 52:49
  Speaker 7: To destroy the Missouri plan and they got deeply involved
• 52:54
  Speaker 7: in trying to derail the nomination of a justice, Patricia Breckenridge,
• 52:59
  Speaker 7: who just resigned last month, uh, And Leonard Leo went
• 53:04
  Speaker 7: right to the chief of staff and the governor and said,
• 53:06
  Speaker 7: if you select this judge, the fury of the conservative movement,
• 53:10
  Speaker 7: the likes of which you have never seen, will come
• 53:14
  Speaker 7: down on you and the governor. And this was being
• 53:17
  Speaker 7: involved on a really granular level on a state level.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: But that was just one.
• 53:22
  Speaker 9: Part of it. We saw after that Leo.
• 53:25
  Speaker 7: Fundraising for justices all over the country in states like Wisconsin,
• 53:31
  Speaker 7: North Carolina. dark money groups that he sponsored, really pouring
• 53:35
  Speaker 7: money into these elections. And I know that you and
• 53:39
  Speaker 7: your listeners have talked a lot about the Wisconsin judicial
• 53:42
  Speaker 7: race that just took place back in April and the
• 53:45
  Speaker 7: sort of outcome of that where there is all this
• 53:47
  Speaker 7: discussion about, you know, maybe impeaching the judge, Judge Janet,
• 53:51
  Speaker 7: Janet Perseus, who won. But that is the system that
• 53:56
  Speaker 7: Leonard Leo and his allies have produced because they were
• 53:58
  Speaker 7: the ones that started pouring money into state Supreme Court's
• 54:02
  Speaker 7: a decade and a half ago, with the desire to
• 54:06
  Speaker 7: make a system that was more partisan and more conservative.
• 54:09
  Speaker 7: And in some states, like North Carolina, they really succeeded.
• 54:13
  Speaker 7: In Wisconsin, this time around, they didn't. But they broke
• 54:18
  Speaker 7: the system. That's what justices of both political persuasions have
• 54:21
  Speaker 7: told us, that you have a system where the future
• 54:23
  Speaker 7: of the republic... depends on the outcome of a single
• 54:27
  Speaker 7: Supreme Court race in Wisconsin that costs, you know, I've
• 54:30
  Speaker 7: heard estimates up to $ 80 million, $ 50 million officially. That
• 54:35
  Speaker 7: is the place that we have been brought by the
• 54:38
  Speaker 7: work that Leo and, you know, the people that he's
• 54:41
  Speaker 7: sort of harnessed and worked with have.
• 54:43
  Speaker 9: Brought to us.
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they built like a baseball farm system that just
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: didn't exist, it seems. So, I mean, these donors to
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: the Federalist Society, to Leonard Leo, I believe, guessing they're
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: not doing this out of the goodness of their own hearts.
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: You looked at whether judges put forward by Leo or
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: the Federalist Society may have had been able to provide
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: a financial benefit through their rulings to some of these donors.
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: Can you talk about that?
• 55:09
  Speaker 7: So it's obviously impossible to say with certainty. But one
• 55:13
  Speaker 7: of the things that we know, sort of Leonard Leo
• 55:15
  Speaker 7: from all of our reporting and, you know, back to
• 55:17
  Speaker 7: high school was fiercely anti-abortion and was a real moral conservative.
• 55:23
  Speaker 7: But understood pretty early on that the moral conservatives and
• 55:28
  Speaker 7: the economic conservatives had to work together. So he began
• 55:32
  Speaker 7: working with donors like Paul Singer, the hedge fund magnate,
• 55:36
  Speaker 7: like Harlan Crowe, the real estate magnate, like Robin Arkley,
• 55:41
  Speaker 7: who is a very shorthanded California mortgage magnate.
• 55:45
  Speaker 9: And these are the people that he set.
• 55:47
  Speaker 7: Up with these trips with the justices. So, for example,
• 55:51
  Speaker 7: when Sam Alito went on a fishing trip, in Alaska,
• 55:55
  Speaker 7: he went on a fishing trip with Paul Singer and
• 55:57
  Speaker 7: with Robin Arkley, and it was Leonard Leo that brought
• 56:00
  Speaker 7: all these people together. They didn't all know each other
• 56:02
  Speaker 7: before this fishing trip. So here's Leonard Leo, and he
• 56:06
  Speaker 7: sets up these trips, and it's tremendous access for these donors,
• 56:10
  Speaker 7: who then give to these sort of moral conservative causes
• 56:14
  Speaker 7: that Leonard Leo cares about, and it's this machine. Samuel
• 56:19
  Speaker 7: Alito has said, there's no influence, Clarence Thomas has said
• 56:24
  Speaker 7: there is no influence. But there is a system where
• 56:26
  Speaker 7: these very wealthy people, through Leonard Leo, can do something
• 56:31
  Speaker 7: like have a dinner or sit around a campfire or
• 56:34
  Speaker 7: have a drink with a Supreme Court justice. And it
• 56:37
  Speaker 7: sort of circles back to the ethics code that we
• 56:39
  Speaker 7: were talking about. They have an access that most people don't.
• 56:43
  Speaker 7: So you take the money of the economic conservatives and
• 56:48
  Speaker 7: you harness it to the fervor of the moral conservatives. And,
• 56:52
  Speaker 7: you know, that is how, from their perspective, they get
• 56:55
  Speaker 7: what they want. And they've been so effective.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: Well, and also for some of these big donors, be
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: it a Paul Singer, be it a Harlan Crowe. I mean, look,
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: if you can do things to elect a bunch of Republicans,
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: odds are down the road, they'll try to pass a
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: big tax cut that will benefit you. But it also
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: does seem like some of these donors had issues before
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: the court. Like, for example, Paul Singer, I think, was
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: trying to make a ton of money off of Argentina,
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: off their sovereign debt, right? And that case reached the
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: Supreme Court as he was building a relationship with some
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: of these justices. Am I summarizing that correctly?
• 57:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 57:29
  Speaker 9: I mean, that's exactly right.
• 57:30
  Speaker 7: I mean, he went on this fishing trip with Justice
• 57:34
  Speaker 7: Samuel Alito and, you know, they became friendly as manifested by,
• 57:40
  Speaker 7: you know, public speeches. I mean, there's this one dinner
• 57:43
  Speaker 7: that we have in the at the Manhattan Institute, where
• 57:47
  Speaker 7: Paul Singer has been on the board for many, many
• 57:49
  Speaker 7: years as a conservative think tank. And he's introducing Justice Alito,
• 57:52
  Speaker 7: and you can just sort of see the warmth and
• 57:54
  Speaker 7: the friendship. He had, not him personally, but his company
• 58:00
  Speaker 7: had a stake in a case that went all the
• 58:02
  Speaker 7: way up to the Supreme Court about Argentinian debt. And,
• 58:05
  Speaker 7: you know, Alito's response has been, well, I didn't know
• 58:08
  Speaker 7: it was Paul Singer, even though it was widely reported
• 58:11
  Speaker 7: at the time.
• 58:12
  Speaker 9: I mean, come on.
• 58:13
  Speaker 7: But, you know, that is what you have. I mean,
• 58:15
  Speaker 7: it was a 7-2 decision. It wasn't like it was
• 58:18
  Speaker 7: the deciding vote. But I think, you know, all of
• 58:21
  Speaker 7: us who've sort of worked and covered and paid attention
• 58:24
  Speaker 7: to politics for years understand the way it works, which
• 58:27
  Speaker 7: is it's not nobody's, you know, going around saying, I'll
• 58:31
  Speaker 7: give you this if you give me that. But by
• 58:33
  Speaker 7: the closeness, you can, you know, convey a set of
• 58:36
  Speaker 7: views that other people do not have that access.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: And listen, you know, All politics is about personal relationships.
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: We're all human beings. If someone's mean to you, you
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: won't like them. If they're nice to you, you will.
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: I think all of these justices, for example, we all
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: saw this firsthand at Brett Kavanaugh's hearing when he had
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: a meltdown and talked about punishing his enemies, right? Like
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: these guys end up feeling like everyone is against them.
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: There's this vast, you know, sort of left wing group
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: of monsters like us who are trying to attack them.
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: And then there's people like, you know, Paul Singer or
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: Harlan Crowe or Leonard Leo, who got their backs, right?
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: And I think that's an incredibly meaningful feeling when you're
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: making a ruling down the road.
• 59:16
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 59:16
  Speaker 7: And I mean, I think one of the things that's
• 59:18
  Speaker 7: so interesting is, you know, from the beginning of Leonard
• 59:21
  Speaker 7: Leo's career, you know, when he was very young, he
• 59:24
  Speaker 7: felt aggrieved.
• 59:25
  Speaker 9: He felt like, you know, the left is.
• 59:27
  Speaker 7: Winning and we conservatives need to stand up for ourselves.
• 59:30
  Speaker 7: And early on with the Federalist Society, there might have
• 59:33
  Speaker 7: been some truth to that. What was so fascinating to
• 59:35
  Speaker 7: me is that there's a speech that Leo gave just
• 59:39
  Speaker 7: a year ago in Washington at the Catholic Information Center
• 59:41
  Speaker 7: where he talks about barbarians at the gates. And even
• 59:45
  Speaker 7: though by then he has his $ 1. 6 billion that he
• 59:47
  Speaker 7: entirely controls, He has six members of the U.S. Supreme
• 59:53
  Speaker 7: Court that he personally has been involved with. And he
• 59:57
  Speaker 7: has won something that was a huge goal of his,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 7: which was to overturn the constitutional right to an abortion.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 7: But even with all of that, he expresses aggrievement. And
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 7: that is, you know, one of the reasons why we
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 7: wanted this podcast, because he is somebody that clearly doesn't
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 7: think his work is done. And it is very much ongoing.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a real apocalyptic tone to it all. So listen,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: listening to your series, talking to you now, it makes
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: me think about an old Hillary Clinton line about a
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: vast right-wing conspiracy. You know, these donors, the judges, the
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: Federalist Society, they're all kind of bound together here. And then,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: but the opening scene to your series is at a
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: party that really drove that home and made me think,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: maybe there really is a conspiracy. Can you tell us
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: a little bit about that party, where it was, who
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: was there?
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 7: So Leonard Leo, you know, spent a lot of his
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 7: life around, professional life around Washington, D.C., living in McLean, Virginia.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 7: But during the pandemic, he moved to Bar Harbor, Maine.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 7: And quite a few of his neighbors in Bar Harbor
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 7: started paying attention to Leonard Leo. In June of 2022,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 7: the night before the Dobbs decision, they noticed a U.S.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 7: Coast Guard boat outside of Leonard Leo's house. protecting a party,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 7: a party with a big white.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 9: Tent and, you know, lights. And we thought, huh, that's interesting.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 9: What were they celebrating?
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 7: So we did a lot of reporting. We scoured the internet.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 7: We filed freedom of information requests. We went to the U.S.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 7: Marshal Service, to the Coast Guard. What was that? And
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 7: basically what we found out at the end of the
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 7: day was this was a party for some two dozen
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 7: federal and state judges, very conservative judges, many of whom
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 7: owed their careers or could owe career.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 9: Advancement to Leonard Leo.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 7: And they were having this lavish party with champagne and
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 7: deconstructed seafood chowder and a tasting of American rare whiskeys.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 7: And they had come to Bar Harbor for a consortium
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 7: that had been put on by George Mason University. But
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 7: there was this party, this private party at Leonard Leo's house,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 7: where there were U.S. Marshals wearing earpieces, Coast Guard. And
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 7: to us, all of this was just showed the sort
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 7: of power that Leo had drawn and was he the
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 7: host of this party, but he was there with three
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 7: judges who were just one level down from the U.S.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 7: Supreme Court. But everybody at the party, according to people
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 7: who described it to us, wanted to talk to Leonard
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 7: Leo because they understood that he was.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 9: The power person.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 7: And this is something that is widely understood among members
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 7: of the judiciary. I mean, one of the things that
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 7: surprised me was so many current and former state justices
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 7: spoke to me Some, you know, of both parties. And
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 7: there were many Republicans who said, you know, we were told,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 7: talk to Leonard Leo.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: If you want to.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 7: Advance your career, go to Federalist Society events. So this
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 7: is something that judges and justices have come to understand.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: Again, remind me what news broke the day after this party.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 7: So the next morning, 10 a.m., it's official. The right
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 7: to an abortion is overturned. This is a lifelong goal
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 7: of Leonard Leo's. His high school best friend told us
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 7: that he had been working on this in high school
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 7: and getting into raucous arguments with his classmates. So this
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 7: group of conservative judges and justices has a party at
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 7: Leonard Leo's house. And the next day, the right to
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 7: abortion is withdrawn.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: On the eve of one of the most monumental Supreme
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: Court decisions in decades, Leonard Leo has a party with
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: a bunch of his most conservative judge buddies.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 9: You can hear all about it.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 7: It is, as you say, the opening to the podcast.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 7: And it's a symbol to us of the machine that
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 7: Leo has built.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: And honestly, you guys do such a great job of
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: setting the scene. We learn about the sommelier, the wines
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: that are being served. It's some damn good reporting on radio.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 7: We got the dinner, the menu, pursuant to a freedom
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 7: of information request.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: That's so great.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: I love investigative reporters. They'll just fucking go and go
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: and go until you got it all.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: Last question for you. I bet there's some people listening.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: feeling very sad and very depressed, knowing that there's this
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: massive ecosystem and structure on the right to put forward
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: all these judges. And they're wondering if there's anything equivalent
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: on the left.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 7: Well, one of the things that we look at at
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 7: the end of the podcast is the pushback. The race
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 7: in Wisconsin that we were talking about, you know, certainly
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 7: was a.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 9: Big, big, big mobilization.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 7: But, you know, I mean, when I talked to, you know,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 7: and there are some there are two former Republican appointees
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 7: on state Supreme Courts that are in the podcast that
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 7: you can hear. And when I talk to them about it,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 7: I mean, they're concerned because, I mean, they don't want.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 9: To sugarcoat it.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 7: They say the way that people look at the judiciary
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 7: beginning with these state Supreme Courts is as super legislators,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 7: is as people to ratify the decisions of legislatures and
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 7: in states like Wisconsin and North Carolina, where the electorate,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 7: as you know, is roughly 50-50, but their state legislatures
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 7: have these huge Republican majorities because of gerrymandering that Republican
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 7: courts have backed up. So, you know, what has happened
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 7: is there's this huge arms race and the system is broken.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 9: And there is no easy fix.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 7: The fix isn't simply just pouring more money into it,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 7: because what ends up happening is that people don't trust judges.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 7: And the idea of the judiciary as an independent branch
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 7: is slowly crumbling. Now, I mean, there's a lot of
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 7: reasons for that. And, you know, the former president is
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 7: a very big one. But it is not an encouraging
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 7: trend to see the judiciaries and the state judiciaries being
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 7: controlled in this way.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: Well, listen, I do think One part of the solution, frankly,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: is for a long time, coverage of the courts, especially
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: the Supreme Court, was a little bit too chummy, a
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: little bit too credulous, and needed to be a bit
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: more adversarial. And so I want to say thank you
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: to you. Thank you to the team at ProPublica for
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: doing unbelievable, long-term, brutally difficult investigative work to get some
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: answers for all of us. And the podcast is We
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: Don't Talk About Leonard. I cannot recommend it enough. If
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: you want to understand how money in Washington works. If
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: you want to understand how the right wing has packed
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: the courts full of judges, it's just incredibly well done.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: So Andrea Bernstein, thank you so much for joining the show.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 9: Thank you. It's really great to talk to you.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: Lovett, do you have something planned for us turkeys?
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: Earlier today, President Biden issued pardons to two turkeys, Liberty
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: and Bell, though he did refer to one as Kamala
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: several times in honor of this annual tradition. We'll be
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: pardoning turkeys of our own. We each will draw a
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: political turkey and make a case for why they should
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: be pardoned. Pardoned legally, pardoned socially, pardoned by God, whatever
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: you want. Could someone please bring me Brian's Babadook hat,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: which contains the names of said turkeys?
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Farrah.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: All right. Since Tommy is remote, I will draw for you. John,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: why don't you kick us off? Great.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: All right. Mike Johnson.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good one. Oof.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: I just have to pardon him.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: You just have to, yeah, express some reason why he
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: deserves pardon. Just pardon him.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: He deserves pardon because he has been very good all
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: year as his Covenant Eyes app has told his son.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's right.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: So he hasn't been looking at any porn all year
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: because his son's been his accountability partner and he's been good,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: so he gets a pardon.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: Not a jerk, you're saying.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: Not a jerk. Not a jerk.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no jerks around. Unless he's got a burner
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: phone like a mobster, which I wouldn't be surprised by,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: given that he also has no bank accounts.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: Stroke of genius, Tommy.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: That was good.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: We had the president on this show recently.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: Maybe for the last time.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: Tommy, I'm drawing for you.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: Lauren Beetlejuice Groper Bobert.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: Oh, you know what?
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: She's just a human being going through a divorce, doing
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: the best she can. She just absolutely deserves a pardon.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: The media comes down too hard on women in politics
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: in particular, and she deserves a reprieve.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 6: Oh, okay.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: I actually believe that.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: Coming down too hard is what got her into this
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: mess in the first place.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: Hashtag, I'm with her over here.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, look at this guy. Break that highest, hardest glass
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: ceiling off.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: If you look at all the terrible things members of
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: Congress have done, that is just like the lowest one
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: on my list.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, totally, totally.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: Very entertaining. Except the, do you know who I am?
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: That's the worst part.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: The groping, fine.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: No hero's ever said you know who I am. Alright,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: I'm choosing, I'm choosing. Jim Jordan.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 4: Yuck.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: Here's what I'll say about Jim Jordan. Jim Jordan... is
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: so unable to not be an asshole that a bunch
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: of people wanted Jim Jordan kind of in a disguise
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: who wasn't as loud and had good manners to be
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: speaker of the house. And it literally created Mike Johnson
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: from scratch. Like Jim Jordan being so shitty as a
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: person being so unabashedly gross that he can't hide it.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: I respect that. I respect that way of being.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, that went a few different directions.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't know how to defend Jim Jordan. Yeah.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: He sucks in every way. All right, John, you go again.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 7: Oh, boy.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: Chris Christie.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, come on.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: Hey, he gets a pardon because you know what? He
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: turned over a new leaf this year.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: And decided to go after Donald Trump.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: Once.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: And he made it through an interview with John Lovett.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: Doesn't matter when you got woke.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: Pardon.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: Took him a while to wake up.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: All right, let's do Tommy next. OpenAI head Sam Altman.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 3: Who does he deserve a pardon? I read a New
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 3: Yorker profile of him from about five years ago where
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: he talked about being a.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: Look at this guy.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: Fucking Tommy in the stacks. He's looking at microfiche.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: Five years ago?
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: He talked about in this profile being a doomsday prepper
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: because of his fear of AI. And then he went
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: on to start an AI nonprofit, which he converted into
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 3: an AI for-profit, which he got pushed out of. Then
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: he went to Microsoft. So I guess I'm just trying
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: to make a point that he's the biggest hypocrite in
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 3: the history of the world. And sometimes the superlatives get
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: a break from us. He's the number one hypocrite. in
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: my book, so he gets a pass.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, you got it. Some of these answers are a
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: little bit like from all of us, he cares too much.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 3: He cares too much about AI.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: All right, here we go.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: I'm going.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: The QAnon shaman who is now running as a libertarian
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: in Arizona. Here's what I'll say. Look, you can fight
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: from the outside for as long as you want, but
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: if you want to kill Mike Pence, sometimes change has to.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: Come from within. Oh my God.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: You got to pass a fucking law. You can't do
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: that as just a protester. You got to actually get
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: in there and get into the nuts and bolts of
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: changing laws. Because you can't, you know, he's working inside
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: the system now. I think that's a good, what?
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: I was going to say, the best case for his
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: pardon is he served his time. Recidivism. Now he wants rehabilitation.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: I'm sure his platform is going to be very progressive.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: Why don't we just wait and see?
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, why don't we wait and see?
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: Why don't we wait and see? All right. How many
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: of these are we going to do?
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: That'll be the last one. You finish us up.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: You finish it. Sam Bankman Freed.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: Okay, great.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: Why does he get a pardon? I don't know. A
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: hundred years seems like a long time.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: It's a hundred years?
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: That's too long.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: That seems like... I mean, I think that's... It could
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: be up... We haven't had sentencing yet, but.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: I got an easy one for you. He gave a
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: lot of money to the Democratic Party.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: What are we, Bob Menendez now?
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: So he gets a pardon.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: Gold bars.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 3: That's how it works.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: The check's cleared.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: We didn't know. It was, you know, we didn't know.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: We didn't know.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: I'll see if we can do one more for the road.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: One more for the road.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: Will and or Jada Smith.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 5: Oh.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: Well, you know what? I hope, I pardon them. I
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: hope they find whatever happiness they're looking for. And I
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: hope they find it offline. Yes. You know, I want
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: them to be happy and I want whatever psychosexual drama
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: is unfolding inside of that house to stay inside. Keep
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: it inside. It seems important. You seem like you genuinely
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: love and hate each other, and I get that. And so, like,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: keep that, just keep that in there. Keep that in there.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: You know, keep it all in there.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: All right. Well, we need a break. So we will,
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: everyone have a wonderful Thanksgiving.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: Have a great Thanksgiving, boys.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Andrea Bernstein, for joining this pod. You couldn't
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: have known what the rest of it would sound like,
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: so that's tough for you. And we'll see you after Thanksgiving.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: Hey, thanks to you both.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: I'm thankful for all of you. All of you in
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: the studio, all.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: Of you on the Zoom. Every one of you listeners.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: All right. Feel better, Tommy.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: Thanks, guys.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers
• 1:13:50
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• 1:13:53
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• 1:13:57
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• 1:14:00
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• 1:14:03
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