Latest / The Birth Lounge Podcast / Ep. 473 Taking back the title of boy mom with Breeze wood

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Ep. 473 Taking back the title of boy mom with Breeze wood · The Birth Lounge Podcast

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I didn't realize this was, like, controversial."
I think the reason it's controversial to some people is because they are very committed to the idea of what masculinity looks like, and if it doesn't look the way that they think it should, they feel it as a threat, and they get very defensive.
Even on my own socials, when I do get negative comments, it's often from men who are very upset about something I'm saying, even if it's not, you know, toward them.
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All right.
I am officially on the six month plus side of having a baby.
It has been an incredible journey so far.
I absolutely love being a mom.
There is literally nothing in the world that I love more than being a mom, and I did not know that that was going to be my experience, and goodness, I'm so grateful for it.
And within that, I've also had a lot of lessons learned.
I just recently shared on one of the episodes about all of the things that I was super unprepared for and I didn't expect in motherhood, and one of those things is actually boy mom culture.
Now, I was lucky enough to have a boy, not that I would not have loved a girl, but I just felt that Saggy was a boy from the very beginning there.
I, I shared this with you.
There was just no doubt in my mind that he was a boy.
And in fact, when he was born, he was a boy.
And I started to obviously get fed a bunch of algorithm stuff that was boy mom culture, and there's this place in boy mom culture that can be really, really weird.
I did not know about this until I had a boy.
And It reminds me a lot of the Oedipus complex, right? Which states that children experience unconscious sexual desires for their opposite sex parent.
And while also I should add that in this in this theory, it also states that you often view the parent of your same sex as a rival, right? And so it reminds me of this, it's not quite like this, but there is this piece in boy mom culture where moms will unintentionally, I do not think intentional, it's an unintentional, like almost sexualization of their little boys.
They will refer to them as things like your boyfriend or there are these yucky reels that go around that say like, "I'm already prepared to like be mean to any other woman that ever loves my son."
Like, just really weird.
Like, why would you want to be a monster-in-law to your future daughter-in-law? It makes no sense.
Or, you know, you have these reels, and these are a little funnier, but then deep down, you're, you kinda question and like, "HeHe, what?" And it's like, you know, they show a, a small little clip of their like four or five-year-old, and then it's the mom hysterically crying.
And she's like, "Sorry, I just got caught up like thinking about him like being married and having a wife and not loving me as the only woman in his life."
And it's like, ha ha ha, it's so funny.
And also like underneath that, that's kinda weird.
Like, don't you want your child to grow up and be in a healthy relationship? Don't you want them to have the same relationship that you have with your partner that's loving and safe and kind and, and a person to go through life with? Don't you want that for your child? And that can't be you.
You're, you're not their romantic relationship, right? Like, you, you have a different relationship with your child.
You are their mother.
Yes, you're safe.
Yes, you are the first love of their life.
Yes, you are their caretaker.
But at some point, they break off and they're independent of you, and you, you should want them to have a healthy and flourishing relationship.
And so I was really caught off guard by this part of boy mom culture.
And so I started to pull away, and I was like, "I don't know that I wanna be part of boy mom culture.
So where is my place?" And I have found a little pocket of the internet that calls it being the mom of boys.
And someone who I have been watching for a long time, and I've learned a lot, and she actually has a house full of boys, uh, you may know her as Breezel Weasel Breeze is a perinatal mental health therapist, content creator, and a mother of five, and she loves creating content about being a millennial mom, being a therapist and comedy.
It's really so funny.
Like her reels crack me up.
But what I'm most interested in is actually something, uh, that she's in the middle of.
It's the series that she's calling The Better Boys Project, where she records conversations about important topics like privilege and menstruation, and what does it mean to actually be a masculine male, and how do boys show up in the world and interact with girls.
And, you know, she really has this aim to help her boys and encourage other people to do the same, to raise men who are going to be helpful in dismantling the patriarchy You can find her at breezelweasel_ and like I say, give her a follow.
I find her account hilarious, but more so her Better Boys Project series is so fun to watch and it, it gives you tangible steps.
And so today that's exactly what we're gonna talk about.
We're gonna talk about how are we raising these boys that are going to be feminists, they're gonna be safe spaces for women, they're gonna be good husbands, they're gonna be involved and engaged dads, but they're not losing their masculinity.
How do you talk to young boys about consent, and weaponized incompetence, and being helpful, and menstruation, and what does it look like to actually have an emotionally intelligent husband? Plus what to do if you realize that maybe your partner is not emotionally intelligent.
Breeze is also gonna tell us about how she is practicing keeping open communication in her home, and what she's doing to foster a good relationship with her boys so that hopefully as they grow, they are these strong men, but also they protect women in their life and they protect women's rights.
I'm super excited to have this, and we're probably gonna touch on some things that some people consider controversial.
But I know that for me, this was really helpful.
And as I think about raising more children in this world, and I think about raising young boys that are gonna go on to be husbands and dads, I want to know that I am equipped to do my very best, and I am equipped to help them navigate this world and be a safe space, and also keep themselves safe.
And I wanna model for them what that looks like.
And, and I also want to have that relationship with my husband where he's on board with that, and we're doing this as a whole family.
And so buckle up because that is what we're diving into today.
So boy moms or shall I say moms of boys, unite.
Grab your pen and paper and let's go.
Without further ado, Breeze, welcome to the show Thank you.
So excited to be here.
You, I'm, you have no idea.
I'm super excited.
I'm so excited for this conversation.
Before we started recording, I told you a little bit about, you know, I've always pictured being a mom.
Yeah.
It's so funny the things that once you're a mom, like, what actually matters versus what doesn't.
And everyone- Right talks about those things, right? It's like- Yes "I'm never doing free time."
And fast-forward, it's like my child sees me answer text messages and emails all the time every day.
Right.
Like- Yes.
Mm-hmm you know? Mm-hmm.
But deeper than that for me, something that has come up, and it was so funny.
You know, I'm super commit- call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'm so convinced our phones are listening because- Oh, they are as I started...
Definitely.
As I started to- learn about boy mom culture- Mm-hmm your profile popped up.
And you had- Oh this, like, boy mom project or raising good boys project.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I started to be like, "Oh my God, this is what I need."
Like- Yes boy mom culture is really weird.
It's like- It is so split, and there's multiple- Mm-hmm camps of it, and I was really- Yeah caught off guard by how, I told you before we started recording, like, I don't have a better word for it, but, like, almost yucky some- Yeah moms are in the way that they- Mm-hmm like describe their relationship- Mm-hmm with their little boys.
Mm-hmm.
Just a couple weeks ago, I was having dinner with some people, and I knew some people, and I didn't know- Yeah some people at this dinner, and there was two moms I did not know.
Never, never met them before, and they were describing their sons as their boyfriends, and I was so- No disgusted.
And I was like, "Oh my God, I'm really freaked out."
Like, I need to get home and hug my baby and, like, let him know- Yes he's not my boyfriend.
He never will be my boyfriend.
Yeah.
And, like, if he brings home a partner, like, I, I will, I will love them just the same.
Like, he, he- Yes is not my boyfriend.
Daddy's my boyfriend.
Mm-hmm.
But you're not my boyfriend.
Exactly.
You're my baby.
Exactly.
Like, I am your mommy.
Yeah.
Like, and I just thought it was so weird.
And so today's episode, I'm hoping to just kinda, like, dive into this.
Like, what is it like raising boys in today's culture? Why do we think- Yeah this mommy culture has turned in such a, like, yucky, borderline sexual...
And I know that's no- no one is, like, trying to sexualize- No one's ha- yeah, they're not thinking that.
I- But the language is very odd, right? It's weird.
Yeah.
Like, what is it? Mm-hmm.
Tell us about it.
Yes.
Yes.
I feel like it's very complicated, honestly, because I think the idea of boy mom that has kind of been co-opted by these, like, kind of strange things, like you're talking about, right? Like saying, "My son is my boyfriend," or, like, there's, like, big trends like TikTok, Instagram, where you'll see moms who are, like like talking about, like they have, like, a toddler son, and they're like, "Oh, I already hate my future daughter-in-law."
Like, just weird, or, like, that type of vibe.
So weird.
They're not saying that.
Yeah, it's very, very weird.
And I think, I mean, I feel like it's so complicated.
I feel like a lot, like you said, I don't think pe- like these moms think they're being weird or, like, I don't think they're trying to, like, sexualize their kids because I think sometimes they, like, people get offended.
I don't think that's their intention.
I think what happens is, well, I think it's a lot of things.
I think number one, I think if you're in a society, especially beyond just, like, our society, right, like in, in the States here.
But, like, if you're in a society that really says all your value is only in motherhood, I think sometimes things kinda get ramped up a little bit, and it gets kinda weird because you're like, "This is my only..."
And motherhood is amazing, obviously.
I've chosen to do it many times.
But- I think if you think that's, that's what all there is for you, then sometimes that importance gets to, like, levels that kind of don't make sense.
Like, so that's weird.
I also think sometimes, not always, sometimes these women have really amazing partners, but I think sometimes they maybe are, like, that relationship with their son is they're getting a lot of needs met, and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that.
But I think it's like, And you know this, all moms know this, boy or girl, no matter, non-binary, I don't care.
Whatever your kid is, you know that when your baby is, like, they love you.
Like, they don't know how to do anything other than just, like, love you and, like, they're so happy to see you.
Like, I understand how it goes down that road, because I think they're like, "Oh my gosh, I've never felt this unconditional love before," but then it just kind of gets weird.
So, that, that's that.
Okay.
So, I never thought I would have all boys.
Uh, I for sure thought I was gonna have girls.
I don't know why I thought that.
I don't know why we assume anything.
Um, but I thought I would for sure, like, have girls and, like, do girly stuff, and like, "Oh, we're gonna have nails done together," all these things.
And so when we, uh, had our first, we found out really he would be a boy, and I was super excited.
I was like, "Oh, I mean, that's a surprise, but great."
And then we had our second, and it was another boy, and I was like, "Wow."
And they were also very close together, so that was a very overwhelming time.
I was like, "Okay, well, I would love to have a daughter one day."
And then our third was also a boy, and I was like, "I think, uh, this is the only thing that's going to be happening, is having boys."
And I was right.
Now I have five boys, and I, and I do love it.
But I don't feel like the boy mom mentality ha- or the boy mom culture, whatever we wanna call it, has always been there.
Because I think that, like, when my first was born, he's now 11 The, the term boy mom, as far as I know, did not have a negative connotation at all.
Like, it was just like boy mom, girl mom, whatever.
Girl...
I don't ever hear boy dad.
That's really interesting.
Uh, girl dad, whatever.
But I feel like it was only in maybe, like, the past five, six, seven years that, like, the tide started to turn, and maybe it's a little because of the social media stuff.
But it's very strange.
I think a big part of this is, uh, just living in a patriarchal society.
Mm.
It's like we're really elevating our boys in a different way than we're elevating girls.
Um, it's really interesting that, like, people will say, like, "I'm a girl mom," but it's not the same type of thing as a boy mom, right? It's like it becomes your whole identity.
And that really does fall in line with patriarchal ideas.
Like, let's center the boys.
What does it mean to raise a boy? So I'm giving you such a roundabout answer to say raising boys can be really, really complicated.
And I think sometimes people say things like, "Oh, raising boys is so much easier.
They're less dramatic.
They're less whatever.
Like, they're just rough and tumble and, and ballsy."
And that maybe that is your boy, but that's not true.
They're just as emotionally, you know, nuanced and complicated and sweet and crazy sometimes as girls.
So- I think it's just we're painting with too broad of a brush with, uh, with boy moms.
And I've found that there's a lot of moms out there that are trying to reclaim this title, kind of like you.
Um, I have a friend, Payal.
She's amazing.
If you don't follow her already, her name's...
So it's like P-A-Y-A-L.
Yeah.
She's amazing.
She does a lot of, like, boy mom stuff that's like anti-boy...
raising boys to be kind and all these things.
So it's tricky, but also it's very much worth it because regardless of if our sons grow up and do have a partner one day, they're gonna have friends, they're gonna have employers, they're gonna have people in their lives, and we want them to be like these fully realized people, not just like, oh, boys will be boys, or, you know, emotions aren't important to you because you're a boy, or you, you can only do this because you're a boy.
Like, we're raising people to be adults, right? So it's hard and it's complicated, but I think if you're intentional about it and you think about this person's gonna be a fully realized human being functioning in the world one day, then it's like, okay, this is worth the work.
And also, we're not trying to raise Ted Bundys.
Like, no one wants to raise a psychopath- Right where you, like- Exactly didn't teach them how to treat women in their life or, like- Yes interact with women.
And- Yeah so like, what kind of things are you doing around your home where you're like, "I'm raising feminist boys who care about women, who are gonna stand- Mm-hmm up for women without- Mm-hmm being controlling, masculine men," right? But you don't wanna- Yeah lose that masculine.
You wanna help them- Yeah stand in that masculine, but healthy masculine.
It is very complex, right? Exactly, away from the toxic masc- masculinity.
That's the thing.
Yes.
And I think sometimes you...
I know before we started recording, you were like, "I didn't realize this was, like, controversial."
I think the reason it's controversial to some people is because they are very committed to the idea of what masculinity looks like, and if it doesn't look the way that they think it should, they feel it as a threat, and they get very defensive.
Even on my own socials, most of my...
I don't get a lot of ne- I mean, I've built a very supportive community, which is wonderful.
When I do get negative comments, it's often from men who are very upset about something I'm saying, uh, even if it's not, you know, toward them.
So when we talk about, like, raising feminist boys, so what I started a few...
How long ago was this ago? Maybe like six months ago.
I'm so bad with time.
I, there was, um, I, I had started recording conversations that I had with my sons without showing them.
So it's like video of me.
You've seen them, right? It's like video of me, 'cause I don't show their faces online anymore, and, um, just having conversations.
So one of the first one was after the Olympic, uh, men's team won, and they said some, like, disparaging remarks against the women's team.
And honestly, that really pissed me off watching that.
And I was like, this is making me mad because in, in a time where it's supposed to be unifying, like the Olympics is like, you're like, "We're together as a country.
This is so cool.
We wanna celebrate each other."
It was like immediately these men said things, and then on top of that, they were like, "You guys are too sensitive.
It's not that big of a deal," whatever.
So that was one of the first videos I did with them, and it was just like a frank conversation.
And my boys rage, range in age from, the youngest is three, so he's really just sitting there listening.
He's not doing a lot of input yet.
But the oldest is 11.
So we have a big range there, and we just talked about, like, why do you think this is an issue? Like, what do you think, like, how do you think it would feel if, you know, someone was talking about girls that way in front of you? Like, why do you think they felt that they needed to say that? And I think we also forget, like, kids are very intuitive and insightful, and they also don't have the worry that adults have of, like, I shouldn't say this, or whatever.
So sometimes they'll say things and I'm like, "Ooh, no.
Not quite.
Not quite."
But most of the time they're like, I'm like, "Yes.
Exactly.
Spot on.
You know why this is wrong."
So we started there, and then after that I was like, okay, I feel like I, I need to be more intentional with this.
So I started doing little lessons with them.
I called it, uh, the Better Boys Project.
Yes.
Anyone can watch along with these.
It's not just for boys.
Like, girls need to hear this.
Everyone needs to hear this.
But essentially we did little, these little videos And it would be me teaching them about something, some topic that I find important.
So we did, um, we started off with, like, what, uh, myths and truths about what boys should be.
'Cause like, things, you know, people say, like, boys don't cry, or boys don't do this, or boys shouldn't, uh, wear that or like that, or whatever it is.
So truths about boys, myths about boys.
Gave them some good, um, like, diverse characters of masculinity, kinda like you're talking about.
Like, Mr.
Rogers is just as masculine as Jason Kelce, right? Like, and we showed Jason Kelce having his exit interview, and he's, you know, crying because he loves the sport.
He's sad to say goodbye, and yet he's this, like, big, hulking football player dude that looks rough, right? And then you have Mr.
Rogers, who's showing inclusivity in, back in the time when this aired, having, he had a Black police officer on his show, and it was, like, this big thing, and he And so how inclusivity is part of masculinity, too.
Like, it's a very wide range, and it's not just being tough.
So honestly, I started doing that and, and people asked a lot.
They're like, "So can you teach us how to do this? Like, we like watching your videos, but what should we do?" So I made a little, like, guide.
I put it out there.
It's not very expensive.
But it basically just walks through, people through these topics.
So, like, what do we talk about? We talk about consent.
We talk about, uh, weaponized incompetence, which is a big one in our house, let me tell you.
Uh, and let's see, what else do we talk about? There's so many things.
Um, we talked about periods and menstruation.
That was a funny one.
My kids real- And they're so, they're so unembarrassed when they're young.
Like, even I as I'm teaching it, and I know you probably don't have this, 'cause it's, like, your job.
Like, this is your whole thing, so you're like, "What? I talk about this stuff all the time."
But I was like, "Okay, we gotta talk very bluntly about these types of things," and they were unfazed.
And so I think if you, if we come with that approach of like- It's never too late to start, but if your kids are young, they're going to be unfazed by this stuff, and then it just becomes part of their vocabulary, their vernacular, and then they're not adults saying, you know, like when they sent the woman, woman to the, uh, into space and they were like, "Is 100 tampons enough?" Or whatever they said.
Like, we're avoiding that.
So that's what we're trying.
We're trying to...
I don't do it perfectly, but I feel like these, these little lessons have done so much for my kids, but they've also done so much for me to unpack, like, how am I actually, like, making sure that I'm raising them in this way? 'Cause there's a lot of things that are deeply ingrained in us, even on accident, just from the world or, or how we grew up or whatever, that it's like, oh yeah, no, I shouldn't say that to my kids.
I never really thought about the deeper meaning there, or whatever.
So it's been a ride, but it's been great, and we've had some, like, I've had some very great feedback about people feeling more able to tackle these topics, and that makes me feel great, so.
Yeah.
I think it's hard to have these conversations, especially when you grow up in homes that didn't have these conversations.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I also come from a home that i- it's just me and my sister, so we were a girl home.
We didn't have boys.
Right.
Right? Right.
And so the conversations were really different.
It is, it was more so for me like, "You're tough, you're strong.
You can do anything-" Yeah "that you want to do."
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Like, "Oh, you don't see a girl being that job? Go be the first girl that has that job."
Right.
Yes.
Like, that's okay.
You don't need- Yeah other girls to have that job- That's amazing if that's what you want.
Mm-hmm.
Right? But- Mm-hmm there was not any space for the balance, 'cause we didn't have boys.
Right, mm-hmm.
So there was no conversations about what does healthy masculinity look like.
Luckily- Right I have a great dad, and he was a great role model.
Yeah.
But- Yeah I think now being the mom of a boy, not a boy mom, the mom of a boy- Um, not a yucky boy mom, at least.
Yep, yep.
You know, I am learning how to have these conversations, and I think you make a really great point and it does probably come very naturally to me because I do this for a living.
But- Yeah It is just talking openly with your children so that these things become normal and you remove that taboo.
So all the taboo that a lot of us feel- Mm-hmm come from those silent lessons that we got at home, right? Like- Yeah sex is not really anything to talk about, or like- Right periods are, like, a girl thing.
So, like, put the tampon- Yeah up your sleeve, walk to the bathroom.
Like, don't- Right don't pull out your tampon.
Don't say anything about- Mm-hmm your period.
Like- Mm-hmm it's quiet.
It's a hush hu- Like, no, periods exist.
It's something that girls- Mm-hmm go through.
Yeah.
Also, we don't choose that.
That's literally- Yeah given to us um- Yes, exactly so if I have to do it, you have to know about it.
Um- Exactly you know, and I think it's just really healthy to have these conversations with our boys because the messaging online is probably not doing that, depending on where you're hanging out online.
Yeah.
I think there's been this rise, and it's super scary to me, and I, I just watched that, um, The Manosphere- Oh, yeah documentary on Netflix.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
There's this rise of men that hate women.
Yes.
And it is terrifying to me.
And there's another one.
What's the one about the teenagers? Yes.
I didn't even, I, truthfully, I didn't even watch that one because I didn't think I could handle it.
So me too.
I was just about to say I haven't- Yes watched it because I'm actually- Yes honestly scared.
I will eventually, but I'm like, I gotta be in a good head space before that one.
Yeah.
But it's true, and I think the scary part is a lot of those men, m- like, those are some Like, obviously, you know, it's, it's made for entertainment in a way, so, like, there's a lot of extreme cases there, and those are very real.
But I think a lot of these men in those like, online communities, they don't think they hate women.
Mm.
Like, they're like, "No, I ha- I don't hate women.
I have a sister.
I have a mom.
Like, I have a wife."
But they're, things that they're doing and the way that they are responding to women and women's issues, it's, like, very transparent that they do.
So I think that's what's a little bit scary is, like, sometimes we see these things and they're so obvious.
Like, okay, that's obviously incel culture that they're blaming women for all of their problems.
But that's, like, the fringe isn't that fringe anymore.
I think that's what we're seeing is, like, a lot of these men are not really nervous about, about how they feel.
They're being very loud about it.
They're like, "No, I think you're not as good as me," or, "I think women should do this," or whatever.
And it's very easy for anyone, including our young boys, to stumble upon on the internet.
And that's why I think when you have these conversations with them, you're prepping them to say, "Huh, okay, this isn't the first time that we talked about consent or weaponized incompetence or what boys should do."
So when they stumble upon, because they will, your kids are gonna be on the internet one day, right? If they stumble upon those things, even by accident, they're not going, "Oh, this is the first time I've ever thought of this."
Because, right, our brains, our brains are, uh, do work in kind of annoying ways sometimes that it's like if we see something, like, for the first time and we absorb it, we kind of do, unless it's really, really out there, we do absorb it as truth.
So if your kid is k- stumbling upon, you know, some, like, red pill incel Andrew Tate nonsense and that's the first he's ever heard about it, how do we expect them to say, "Something's wrong.
Something is weird there"? Like, existing in a, in a household with a sister or a mother or knowing girls or anything like that is not enough.
Like, we have to be very, very consistent- Because those movements are very consistent, and they are trying they're trying to recruit your kids.
Like, I hate to say it, but it's true.
Like, they're like, "Believe this.
This is how you, this is how you're a man.
This is how you get power.
This is how you get value as a boy, as a man," is all of these things as being, like, macho or being, you know, strong in this very specific way, being dominating, being all of these things.
And so if you start from the beginning and saying, and show them like, look at this guy.
Look at like...
I know this is kind of a silly one, but we watched, like, in that Jason Kelce Mr.
Rogers we did, uh, we showed, like, Indiana Jones.
We're like, okay, look at this.
Sure, adventuring guy.
He's cool.
He's awesome.
He's also smart.
He's also, like, whatever, he's like a professor, whatever.
Whatever, all these things.
So if we start that at home, then they can go, oh, wait, like, that's not the only way I can show that I...
If, like, if, if that's important to me and I wanna feel masculine, whatever that means, like I can actually decide what that means.
Mm.
Like, this random guy on the internet is not gonna be the only one to ever tell me.
So how are you fostering the relationship with your boys where they feel comfortable telling you things? You know, as a mental health therapist, like, what do parents need to know about keeping that open line of communication? Because I feel like, I mean, you're, you're kind of in it and/or about to be in it with that preteen phase.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
This is where a lot of relationships start to kind of deteriorate and crumble because a lot of parents, it, there's that tension there, right? Of like- Yep you're not an adult, but I wanna give you some freedom.
The child is like, "I need a lot of freedom," and you're trying to strike this balance.
Yes.
But i- and communication can really break down here.
So what are you doing to keep that open? Mm-hmm.
I think this is one of the hardest things for me, and I think...
Well, I think it's hard for all parents, but I think the hard part is, is like you cannot start that when they become a teenager, and that's something that I have to constantly remind myself.
Like, you can't start, you can't have, you know, your one, two, three, whatever year old and not hear them out on things, and then all of a sudden they're 13, 14, 15 years old and you're like, "Tell me about X, Y, Z."
No, you have to start immediately.
So sometimes, and I know this, this is gonna sound terrible, but it's not, okay? Sometimes your k- the kid is gonna talk to you about things that you don't care about.
Do I care about Minecraft? No.
Absolutely not.
So boring.
But if they wanna talk to you about Minecraft, or they wanna talk to you about, "Mom, I made up this game," or whatever, I'm not saying you have to, like, answer every single bid for attention.
But when they're telling you about something that they care about, even if it's your, it's like, this is literally mine, nothing, like boring, or I have stuff to do or whatever, those opportunities will matter later, and that's what's can be very difficult for me.
I'm just, totally honestly, partially because it's like sometimes I'm like I have a million things to do, and you're telling me about this thing, and, uh, like, what is the point of the story, right? Like, I love you, but what is happening? What are you even saying right now? Or I have five kids, so, like, there's just, like, a lot of kids to listen to.
But I think then when your kid is a little older, and again, my oldest is only 11, so I'm, like, just on the precipice here.
But when they're older and you go to them and you're like, "Hey," like, "What's going on with that friend?" Like, "Something seems weird there," they're not gonna wanna share that if you didn't listen to the Minecraft, if you didn't listen to the show I watched or whatever it is.
And- I mean, that's not a guarantee, but it's likely, right? It's like a friendship that you have.
If a friend only, like, pays attention to you sometimes, you're like, "Oh, I don't really know if I can rely on you," right? And so that plays out in a lot of ways.
I think sometimes it's, like, hearing my kids out when there's, like, a fight between them, and it's...
This is where it comes into play that's very hard for me, is when it's so obvious that I'm like, "You did a wrong thing."
Like, "I don't wanna hear you talk about why you did it."
Like, "I don't wanna talk, like you were mean to your brother.
I don't wanna hear 'but, but.'"
But I do, as much as I can, because even if the repercussions are the same, like, "Hey, you gotta go take a break by yourself 'cause you're kinda out of control," or you're losing a privilege or whatever it is.
Even if those things are the same, they still deserve to be heard and listened to in that moment, and then go, "I get it.
I get how you're feeling, and I, I maybe even understand why you reacted that way.
It's still not okay."
So I think that if you can just start from a place of- Openness.
I know it, it's like that sounds so simple, but it's really not that simple.
That's hard.
I think that's how you start.
It is hard.
And I, it, I...
Here's the big thing, and I actually have her book right here, Dr.
Becky, she's up here.
One thing in her parenting book that she talks about is how you essentially have to re-parent yourself.
And this, this is no shade to my parents, but you have to re-parent yourself a little bit in, in parenting.
And you'll notice these little, like, difficult spots that come up where it's hard for you to show up for your children if your parents didn't show up for you in that way.
And you can have the best parents.
This is not a you have to have like, awful parents or a traumatic childhood.
The best parents did not show up for you in every way, because they were only human, and they did their best most of the time, right? So whatever way your parent missed, whether it was unintentional, whether it was trauma, anything, it will come up in your kids.
And you'll go, "Oh my God, this is so hard."
For me, it comes up with, like, my kids have really big emotions, and they, like, uh...
I mean, my parents were the parenting where it was like if your kid was kind of out of control, you send them to their room until they calm down.
That was very common of the time, so again, don't blame them for that.
But now when my kids do that, I'm like, it makes me, I'm like, "Oh, I, I wanna send you to your room so bad."
And sometimes there are times where I'm like, "You need to go take a breath."
But sitting with my kids and hearing them have these what feels like irrational emotions and hearing them explain themselves and all these things can be really, really tough.
But again, it fosters that openness.
It shows them that all of their feelings are welcome, even if the behavior is not.
And I hope, I mean, again, you know, talk to me in a few years.
We'll see how things are going.
But, um, I think so far it has helped.
I think my, my eldest is very, he's very, like, quiet.
He kind of, he always has been that way.
But still, he does share with me, especially if the questions are asked, then he'll share.
Or maybe sometimes he shares with my husband, 'cause we, my husband is doing the same thing here.
But yeah, so that's the hope, and I feel like even though I don't have teenagers yet, I do often, uh, have clients who are teenagers or I have parents of teenagers, and I do see the parents who have really tried their best to foster that connection, not perfectly, but they've said like, "You can tell me anything," and then they actually follow up that with action.
Then their teenagers are more open.
They don't tell them everything, 'cause teenagers actually aren't supposed to tell you everything, but they are more open.
So I think it does help.
We can't control everything, but I think that's what we can do.
Yeah, I mean, and perfection is never the goal, right? Like, perfect doesn't exist.
No.
So striking that 80/20 balance or even- Yeah a 60/40 balance is probably plenty.
Like, you kind of said it in the beginning.
It is.
Like, your kids are programmed to love you unconditionally, and I think for a lot of us parents, that's very comforting.
We can- It is rest assured that when we mess up, we're not messing up our child and we're not destroying the whole relationship that we have with them.
No.
Yes.
And it really does come down to repair.
So talk to us about that.
How are you repairing with your boys- Mm-hmm as a mom? Because I, I feel like the dynamic between dad and son is very different than- Mm-hmm mom and son, which is probably very different between mom and daughter and dad and daughter.
As a daughter- Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah I can say that.
I, I can say- Yeah that my relationships are different.
But, like, as a mom, how are you going to your boys to repair when things get hairy? Yes.
Okay, I love that you brought this up, because I feel like especially like this was a very, this is still a very comforting idea to me, but especially, like, in the earlier years, like toddler years, and as they get more, like, their personality comes out more, I had this, such a fear of, like, ruining the relationship.
I don't know why I thought that.
Like, I think I was just, you wanna be a good parent, you know? Yeah.
So I think any time there's, like, the rupture, right? So whether it's essentially like a disruption of the connection is what, how I think.
So sometimes that means, like, oh, maybe I yelled at my kid or maybe I, like, scolded them for something, whether it was warranted or not.
Maybe I missed a bid for attention that was really important for them.
Whatever it is.
I can tell you, one, recently one of my kids I'm like, he probably wouldn't care that I share this, but I'm gonna give, not give too much detail.
Basically qualified for, like, a, like, a high-cap thing at his school.
So, like, highly capable, whatever, which is great.
Um, but they said, "Hey, we need you to do one more little test at home and just to, like, qualify you or whatever."
And so, I gave it to him, and he was like, "I don't know how to do this part."
And I was like, "I can't help you, actually.
Like, I can't help you.
It literally says in the directions," which makes sense.
Like, I can't help you.
It's for Like, if you, if you don't know how to do it, that's the point.
And he's like, "I don't know how to do this."
Like, he's getting really upset, and this child of mine does not get upset like this frequently.
And I, I made, number one, I made the mistake of having him do this after a long day.
I didn't realize the deadline was coming, so it's like all these factors that came into play.
It was just not good.
And I said to him, which in the moment, this was not a purposeful rupture of the connection, but it was one.
I was like, "If you don't know how to do it, then just don't do it, because that's the point.
If you're not ready to do this," I think it was like division or something.
It's like, "If you're not ready to do this division, then you shouldn't be in that specific pullout class, 'cause you won't be ready for it.
It'll be too challenging.
So like just don't do it."
And I said it just like this, okay? So I'm like, "It's fine."
And then I go in later, and he's, like, crying in his room, and I'm like, "Oh my God, what happened?" And so my first response is like, "Wait, what is happening even?" Like, not even a, like, upset, but I'm just like, "Why is he so upset? What's going on?" And luckily, I am married to a very emotionally intelligent and attuned husband, and he was like, "I know what you said, and I know what you meant.
I think what he heard was you're not smart enough."
Mm.
"That's not what you said, but I think that's what it meant."
So the repair in that instance was going back to him, and I said, "I hope you know I would never tell you that you're not smart enough, not good enough, or anything.
I was trying to not make you stressed out, that, like, you don't have to do this if you don't want to."
And he's my one He's actually very much like me, that, like, sometimes it's hard to, like, move on from something.
And so with him, specifically, I, like, if I can in- interject a little humor and, like, make him laugh, it's like, it, like, kind of breaks the ice.
And so I said, "You know, like, math is stupid, and it doesn't really matter.
Like, it's dumb.
Like, who cares?" And he started, like, he kind of, like, giggled.
And I was like, "I mean, it's great that you're good at math, but, like, I don't really care about that.
And I, I, if I made you feel like the math was more important than how you feel, I did not mean to."
So sometimes it looks like that.
Sometimes it looks like, "Hey, I'm sorry I got upset with you.
It was not that big of a deal."
But I think somet- like, so sometimes it's a big conversation.
Sometimes it's a small one.
But I think at the end of the day, it goes back to, like, restoring the connection with them.
So whatever that means for your kid.
Um, one of my kids, he's like, he needs, like, physical touch afterwards.
Like, he needs to be hugged.
He wants to sit next to you, like, when there's been some sort of, like, conflict or disagreement.
The one that I was just talking with, it's like, he kinda needs a little redirection, a little, like, let's laugh, whatever.
So I think at the end of the day, like, we all know our kids best, but if you just seek restoring the connection with them, then that's the repair.
And it's not all on Okay, hear me when I say it's not on women to fix this problem of how men are treating women.
But I think when we do things like this, when we have the repair conversations with our sons and we say, "Hey, I'm sor-," like, if we did something wrong, we say, "I'm really sorry that I did that."
Um, that's, or, "That's not what I meant," or whatever it is, then we add things to the tally of women, or anyone who's not, like, a macho guy, is not my enemy.
Like, I think sometimes the, those communities really play on if you had a very domineering woman in your life, and again, not a responsibility, but it's helpful.
Like, they go, "Oh my gosh, yeah, your mom made you feel that way.
You had an ex-girlfriend that made you feel that way.
That's because women want to XYZ," or whatever.
So I think any time that we can model, like, this is what a good relationship looks like, regardless of gender.
This is what a healthy parenting relationship looks like, and then hopefully- Whatever other relationships they get into in our lives, they carry those things of, like, being able to say sorry, or be, having some, like, you know, there's nuance to things, or t- taking on someone else's perspective.
I think all of that goes into that column of, okay, I am not gonna...
Like, being a feminist is a normal thing for a human being, men included, to be.
And so I think it just helps us get there.
And it doesn't mean you're some weasely, weak man, right? Like, you're not trading your masculinity, your healthy masculinity- Right for feminism.
Like, actually- Right some of the most masculine men are feminists- Mm-hmm because they know that it's a coexisting relationship.
Like, men and women- Totally need each other, right? Like- Yeah we want to be with each other for the most part.
I mean, I don't wanna be- Mm-hmm with every man.
Like, some of them s- Yes.
And I mean, some women suck, too.
I don't support all women.
Yeah.
Some of them, I'm like, "I would literally never be your friend, and I hope I- Right never, ever run out, you know- run into you out in the, the real world."
But, like, for the most part, we, we can have this really beautiful relationship, and I love that- Yes you talk about, you know, modeling these things for our boys not only teaches them that apologizing is good and something to do- Mm-hmm it models how you do that.
Yeah.
And it sets them up for what they can expect in future relationships.
I think a lot of times when we grow up in homes, so for example I did not grow up in a home that apologized.
Me neither.
I did not learn how to apologize- Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm until I met my husband.
And even- Mm-hmm now, we've been together for, it'll be 12 years in a few months, and- Yeah been married for three.
We just had a baby.
I'm 35 years old, and I still struggle with apologizing because- Oh, same.
Yes it's so hard to do when you weren't taught how to do it.
And, like, my husband- Yes my husband's so good.
He's a great apologizer.
He's really good at repair, and I suck at it.
I'm really, really bad at it.
Yes.
I try to be good at it- Yeah, I know.
Mm-hmm and I, like, really want to be good at it.
It is so, it almost feels, like, ingrained in my DNA.
Like, it's crazy how much- Yes resistance I have, and I, like- It's so uncomfortable oh my God.
I will actively, like- Yeah literally avoid it.
And I'm like, why are you being so resistant to this? Like, just- Mm-hmm apologize, Haley.
Mm-hmm.
Like, you know- Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm that you need to apologize.
Like, just go say you're sorry.
Like, you know what- Yeah you did wasn't right, or you know the way that you said that was snippy, or you know that, you know, you hurt his feelings unintentionally by saying something- Yeah that you thought was fine.
Yeah.
But, like- Yeah the way that he heard it, much like your son, like, hurt his feelings.
Like, it is crazy how much some of the things you just, like, I don't know, the silent lessons that you grew up with.
No one in my family ever said, like, "We don't apologize," but it was- Right there was- Yeah never any repair in our family.
Yes.
And so now I am having to truly work so hard to unlearn those things, and it is like- Yes oh my God, I've been working at it for, like I say, 12 years, and it's still so- Yeah hard.
It, it is one of those things where I'm like, am I ever gonna be good at this? Yeah and I don't know that being good at it is the goal.
Like, am I getting better every time? Yeah.
Yes.
And that's- Well, can I just do it? Yeah.
Like, sometimes, like, even if I suck at this, that one, I went back to my son.
I didn't even include this, and I love that you're saying this, because this, that dynamic with my husband and I is exactly the same.
He's so good at apologizing.
He will admit he's wrong, and then suddenly he's like, "And do you have anything to add?" And I'm like- And you're like, "Thank you- "Sorry" so much for saying what you said.
Goodbye."
Yes.
Yes.
Exactly.
I'm like- I have to go now I'm glad that you know that you're wrong.
Bye.
Uh, yeah.
No, it's literally so hard, and I think, a- again, I think part of it, you know, we h- all have individual family dynamics, but I think that, I'm guessing our parents are the same, similar ages, because you and I are the same age.
So I think that generation, it was very much like- Parents need to be in charge.
And I think back then, being in charge meant you don't show a crack in the foundation type of thing.
Mm-hmm.
Like, don't apologize.
Like, and it wasn't because maybe they didn't feel sorry or because they didn't make mistakes, but I think it was very hard Like, no one was modeling to them, their parents certainly were not modeling to them, like, that an authority figure can make mistakes and admit those mistakes.
So I think every generation we're like, "Okay, let's do a little bit better.
Let's do a little bit better."
And that's kind of like you said that you're like this unlearning.
When I'm having a hard time with anything, whether it's apologizing or, you know, something that I grew up with that I'm, like, trying to not do with my kids, all I think of is I am hopefully creating something for them.
Like, making their childhood something they don't have to unlearn.
Because man, it is painful to unlearn thing as an adult.
And like, we'll, I will I'm sure traumatize them in some way.
They will need therapy in some way.
That's fine.
But I know it won't be these ways.
That's, like, that's what we can do.
And I think lots of times that's what I have to remind myself is I'm like, "This feels uncomfortable for me right now.
I do not like this.
No one ever taught me how to do this, but I don't want my kid to feel this way when they're 35.
So what do I do now to try and make that the reality?" But I feel you.
I think a lot of, and I think a lot of parents are in the same boat with this stuff, and it's so much easier to avoid these conversations because it is much more comfortable.
And it's like, puts us in the space of like, I can just do what was modeled to me and everything.
But I think if we can try really hard to realize we don't have to be perfect when we have these conversations.
Number one, they happen, which is great.
But also what we're modeling to our kids is that it's okay to try things and be bad at them and then come back and say, "Oops, I didn't do that very well.
I need to fix that."
Like, even when we were talking about like the menstruation and stuff with my boys, there were many times I had to go back and use more inclusive language at, because that's something that is newer to me in my life.
Not that I haven't thought of that way, but like I was not raised using that type of language and so I kept saying, "Sorry, I meant to say blah, blah, blah."
And like, they're, they're like, "Okay, whatever."
Like, they're unfazed.
But if they can see, look at mom and dad and other adults are learning and they're changing their mind and they're learning something new and then they're deciding to do something different, that's actually really, that's like a, that's something they will, they will learn from and they will be shaped by in such a positive way.
So let yourself mess up with your son.
Like- It's okay.
And say, "I messed up."
And then he'll go, "Oh my gosh, wait, if my mom can mess up, that means I can, and that I'm okay still."
And that's actually, like, top-tier parenting.
Well, think about the pressure that that takes off your kid.
So I live in Boston.
Mm-hmm.
And around here, there are so many very prestigious high schools, and we have a lot of teacher friends.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, when my husband and I first moved to this city, we were very, very poor, and we had to have- Mm-hmm a roommate, and she was a- Mm-hmm guidance counselor.
We lived with her for many years.
Yeah.
And all of these people have shared the anxiety and the mental healths that are running rampant right now in high schools- Mm-hmm because these kids feel such immense pressure.
And I think- Mm-hmm it comes from seeing parents that you perceive as being perfect, and- Yes the pressure that our parents can put on us to be perfect.
Mm-hmm.
And so I think that modeling, "Oops, I messed up," and like, "Oops, I tried that and I wasn't very good, but here's what I'm gonna do next time to be better," or- Yeah you know, "I changed my mind.
I want- Yes to do something in a different way.
I want to make a different choice," it opens up that option for your child, and you- Mm-hmm may be the only person that has given them that message.
Every- Yes body at school may be given the message, you have to be perfect.
Right.
Every single thing that they hear is, "Study for your SATs.
Make a good ACT score."
Mm-hmm.
"Have the perfect body.
Have the perfect hair flip."
You know- Mm-hmm whatever this- Mm-hmm like, chiseling to the max.
Spend hours- Yeah in the gym, like, be nine years old- Yes in Ulta Beauty, like- Yes what? How have- Yes we gotten here? And I do think that there's so much responsibility on parents to- Be that place that your child can land imperfectly.
Like- Yes.
Yes they don't have to be this perfect person at home, or to please you, or to get your love, or to get praise.
Like, let them show up imperfect and then show them that you also show up that way so that they know, "Hey, the people that I love and I respect more than anything in the world also are doing these things."
Absolutely.
I think, I'm trying to, I was trying to think as you were talking, I think it was, I'll have to go back and find it.
It, I think it was Jen Hatmaker has a quote about how I think a lot of parents are, they're trying to prepare their children for the world, and so they're like, "Well, the world's not gonna treat them that way, so, like, I need to, like, not treat them that way either or they're gonna have, like, a, a rude awakening type of thing."
And she talks about, like, being that s- like actually, that's exactly why you need to be the safe space for your kids is because the world won't care.
Like, and it's not that they won't have, like, wonderful friends hopefully and all that type of thing, but, like, in general, people are not gonna greet them and welcome them with the same level of love and care and softness as you can at home.
And so it doesn't do them a disservice by, by giving them that place at home.
It actually will probably make them stronger because when the world kicks their ass one day, they can come home and say, "I know I can come be vulnerable and sad or whatever at home, and that's okay."
And that's fine.
Like, I think all of these are so good.
I think it, it goes to, like, when we show- our kids a wide range of everything, right? Like, whether it's the masculinity or, like, different types of people, like, uh, like appearance-wise or backgrounds or professions or whatever.
It's like they don't question themselves as much because they're l- they're not like, "Oh, well, I don't fit in that box."
Like, "I don't fit in that box of what it means to be a boy."
Or, like, for example, I try very hard to follow on social media for myself, like, people who look all different ways, who have all different backgrounds, who, all these things.
Because if I'm only following, and this is no, this is not anything negative towards these people, but if I'm only following people who are living in big houses, and they have new outfits every single day, and they're thin, and they're blonde, and they're all these things, all of a sudden my brain starts going, Why don't you look like that? Why don't you have that? Why aren't you like that?" But when I see all of these things, I can go, "Oh my gosh, wait, I think all of these people are, like, beautiful and wonderful, and they have all these, like, these, this purpose that is so different in so many ways, that when I don't fit into the box of what it looks like to be a mom or a woman or anything, whatever it is, then it doesn't feel like I'm wrong."
So same thing for our kids, whatever that looks like.
Just like, "Hey, look at all these people.
Isn't this great?" And then they're like, "Oh, wait, I can do that."
Just like you said your family, which I love, that your family was like, "Oh, you don't see, you know, a woman in that profession? Maybe you could be the first one."
Like, that is such a wonderful thing to have ingrained.
And think of, like, how different it would be if, like, we didn't have the, have a hard time apologizing ingrained, but we had a, like, all these other things ingrained younger in life.
It would, like, so wonderful.
So hopefully we can do that for our kids, you know? And what if, so bear with me here, you guys.
Stay with me.
What if you being your safe space, your child's safe space, that gentle space that they can land, that they can show up imperfectly, teaches them that's actually what relationships are supposed to be like, so the people who- Mm don't treat them that way- Mm-hmm they're like, "Ding dong, this is weird.
Maybe I don't wanna- Yes date this person.
Maybe this person is not meant for me to marry.
Maybe- Mm-hmm I don't want to be this person's friend because they don't allow me to show up in my true authentic self."
I think so much of our- Mm-hmm mental health problems in this country, which I'm not the therapist here, but- I just think a lot of it is because, yes, social media, but it has warped our brain into thinking that who we are authentically is not good enough.
It kinda goes back to what- Yes you were saying.
Like, if everyone- Yeah in your feed is skinny and blonde and wears glasses and drives a Mercedes and has this spotless house- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm which by the way, if they just panned their phone, it was, it's probably a disaster.
Exactly.
You know? But, you know, what, what if- You could show your children actually real, authentic relationships that are- Mm-hmm genuine and gonna carry you through life look like this.
So if it doesn't look like this, you should reevaluate.
Is that safe? Is that- Yeah good for my mental health? Is that a relationship- Yeah that I want to keep? Is that a person that I want to continue to be, you know, in con- in connection with? Like, what if us modeling that at home could really rewire what our children then go out and accept or don't accept in the world around them? Yeah, totally.
That's, seriously, very beautifully said, and so true.
And I think beyond just, like, yeah, beyond just being a safe space is, like, hopefully then they go and seek out relationships that feel like what they were modeled.
And then the cycle perpetuates in a good way.
Like, I think that could be, yeah, I think in so many ways that could heal a lot of things in our world.
So that is the goal.
And I think it, for anyone listening, 'cause I feel like sometimes we are like, "Oh, my gosh, wait, I've been parenting my child this certain way and maybe I'm not doing it right," never too late.
I don't care if your kid is a toddler- Mm-hmm is 10 years old, or if you have adult children, I think, and this is my perspective with being a therapist as well, obviously not in extreme situations, but just, like, typical relationships, that it's never too late to do something different.
Whether you're going back and saying, "Hey, I'm really sorry, that's an, I, I approached, uh, things in this way and I meant it differently," or, "I should've done things differently," or you just change your behavior.
Like, it's never too late to do those things.
So, I, when I was kind of jokingly talking about the Minecraft stuff, I actually read this book, which is, like, not a parenting book.
It's, like, a nonfiction, like, thriller, so this kind of seems random, but it was called Wrong Place Wrong Time, and it was about this mom who essentially, like- I kept going back and reliving these different days in her life, trying to figure out what happens to her family.
It's complicated, time travel, whatever.
But the idea is she basically is going back and forth, and her son, like she goes back to when he's younger, and he tries to tell her something about his science project, and she's like, "I'm busy, I'm busy."
And then she flashes forward, and he says, "Oh, I'm doing the science thing."
And she goes, "Oh, tell me about that."
And he's like, "You've never cared before.
You don't care about that."
And I went, oh my God, what? So in the book, she kind of mends that, but I was like, whoa.
It seems so obvious, but I think like in our minds, like our kids, when they're five and up, you know, and they're trying to talk to us about these things, sometimes it's like, okay, well, this isn't...
Like, I love my kid, but this thing doesn't really matter.
But like that five-year-old is going to be a 15, 16, 17-year-old adult one day, and they're gonna remember the feeling of did my parent care about what I had to say? Like, yeah, maybe they were busy.
Maybe they couldn't always hear me out.
That's normal.
But generally, if I had an interest, did they think that was cool? Did they...
If I had something exciting, were they excited with me? And that, reading that book, so like seems so random, but I was like, whoa, okay, that's what I'm gonna do.
So never too late.
Start now, wherever you are.
And we talk about how, and maybe you disagree, maybe this is my opinion can we talk about how it's the parent's job to initiate that repair? So even if you are- Oh, yes an adult child, and you have a feudal relationship with your parent- It's not necessarily your job to go to your parent and say, "Hey, you messed up this, these things," and like, "Hey, it made me feel this way when you did this."
Mm-hmm.
And, "Hey, like I, I'm having all these hard feelings because of the things that were done to me or said to me- Yeah or the way that I was raised."
Like, that falls on the parent, but that can feel really hard as an adult child, especially if you long for a good relationship with your parent.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
If you're now becoming a parent and you're like, "Oh, I have this fractured relationship with my own parents that I want to repair," talk to us about that from a mental health standpoint.
Totally.
No, I, I completely agree with you.
I think if you are an adult who wants that relationship and there's some sort of, you know, rupture in the relationship whatever it is, and you feel like it's able to be repaired, of course you can go to your parent and you can say, "This is, this hurt me," or whatever and, um, like have those conversations, but I do agree.
I don't think...
I think the person who did the harm, whatever the harm is, big, small, whatever it is their responsibility.
And I think what's difficult is that, again, it depends how old your parents are and how old you are and the background.
Like, there's so many factors here.
But I think that often it's really hard to admit that, especially if the childhood is over.
They're like, "Well, I can't do any..."
Like, a lot of parents say this, "Well, I, I did the best I could," or, "I didn't mean to do that," or, or whatever, and it feels very dismissive.
So I think if you f- if a person feels like, "I need to have this conversation with a parent and I know they're not gonna initiate it-" Then you're welcome to do that if it feels like it's worth the risk, I guess, to you.
I know that in my own therapy journey, there were things that I was like, "Oh my gosh, yeah," like, that did happen.
And it wasn't like my parents did something horrible to me.
Like, it was more like I was the eldest daughter, and so I felt like no one ever wanted to help me with things, and I, like, had to do it all on my own.
And my therapist very lovingly pointed out, she's like, "Do you think that your parents saw you doing fine and they thought, well, she doesn't need my help, so then you kept doing it by yourself.
And then they kept thinking, well, she still doesn't need my help, 'cause she's so independent.
She does all those things."
She's like, "So I'm not saying your parents couldn't have helped you, but, like, maybe they were noticing things that you were doing and they were like, 'She's good,'" right? And so I did have a conversation with my...
I had a conversation with my mom, because in that instance, I knew that my parents didn't really know that's how I felt.
And so I went to them and I s- I was like, "I always felt like no one wa- like, I felt like my siblings got help or got asked how they were, all these things, and I didn't."
And they were like, "We never felt like you needed us in that way."
And these are my parents that showed up for me in so many ways, but, like, in this one instance.
And so in that instance, I went to them because I don't think they knew.
And that's not an, uh, like absolving them of responsibility, but I, I genuinely, they did not know.
And so I started the conversation, and then my mom was like, "I had no idea, and I'm so sorry.
Like, I thought we were doing the right thing, and, like-" That conversation really helped.
So I absolutely agree with you, but I also think, like, we are 100% able to take on responsibility to go, "Okay, if I want this repaired and I know the other person is not gonna start it, but maybe they'll, maybe they'll join in if I open the door, then let's try it."
If you also know that that person will not, then there are other ways to process that, right? Like in therapy or talk- even just ta- I mean, I obviously endorse therapy, but, like, even talking to other people in similar instances of being like, "This is how that felt," like just talking through it.
And also, like, if there's not the ability to repair that relationship, whether it's you're estranged or maybe your parent has passed or whatever, whatever the reason, then there are ways to kind of, like, gently re-parent yourself.
Like, one thing that is one of my favorite things, I have it right here, and I keep this here because I love her.
She is me, by the way.
I have this little picture of me by my desk, and- You're blonde.
Oh my gosh.
I know.
You have blonde hair.
Those are all my kids, too.
They literally...
My kids just look like this.
So, like, I don't show them on the internet, but basically just copy and paste.
Um, but I have...
One thing that I love doing with myself and I tell clients to do often is when you're thinking about things that happened either in your childhood, whether it's someone, like, in a relationship or just, like, feelings you had as a child or, or experiences, whatever, is, like, looking back at that little picture of yourself and saying what that little version of you needed to hear.
And whatever that is.
Like, "Hey," like, "it's okay that you didn't do a good job in school," or, you know, "That's not the only thing that matters," or, "You know what? I know you feel like you didn't fit in, but you do.
You do belong," or whatever, or, "You deserve to have someone hug you after that hard day, and I know that nobody did," you know? And at first, I was like, "This feels, like, a little woo-woo for me," but then once I did it, I was like, "Oh, this is so healing."
So I also don't want people to feel like if there's not a chance for repair in the way of, like, pers- to, like, face to face with that person, that doesn't mean that you can't heal from those things in different ways.
Okay.
Talk to us about having an emotionally intelligent husband, because I too have one of those, and I feel- Mm-hmm very, very, very lucky.
Um- Yes you know, it, it makes- It makes life easier.
My God, I don't feel like I am having to parent him.
Mm-hmm.
I credit my mother-in-law so much.
Mm-hmm.
I love having a partner that is introspective to himself.
Mm-hmm.
He understands me.
I'm really lucky that he had a sister, so he did grow up in a home with a, a girl, a female.
Mm-hmm.
So I didn't have to teach him any of that stuff either.
I feel so bad for women who write in sometimes on my Instagram or email or in public and in, in events- Yeah in, in person, and they'll just share like, "My husband's not interested in like being an equal partner.
My, my husband's not interested in doing this work.
My husband's not interested in teaching my boys these things."
Or maybe the opposite, "My husband is stuck in that toxic masculinity, and I'm trying- Mm-hmm as the mom to like strike a balance," right? Yeah.
"I don't want my boys- Yeah to like pick up everything from their dad because I can- Mm-hmm I can see, and I often am the recipient of a lot of toxic stuff.
And so I want my boys to go out into the world and, and be better and know better and do better," but it's hard when you don't live at home like you and I do, and your partner is not on board, and they may not be as emotionally intelligent.
Mm-hmm.
What do the women out there need to hear about that? Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Okay, this is such a com- this is so...
I'm like, as you're talking, I'm like, I know we can't- Dump him.
Leave him.
Oh, yeah.
I know that's what you wanna say, right? I'm like- Harass him and get a new one.
leave your husband.
Leave him right now.
That's what I wanna say.
No.
Okay, so which truly, I'm like, I think that in an ideal world, if you had a partner who was not on board with being an equal partner or, like, helping you, not even helping, standing alongside you and doing these things, yeah, that would be great.
I understand that's not the reality for so many people.
I think, I think that you can start with conversation, hopefully.
And I think it's a different story if your partner is not even open to the conversation of like, "Hey, let's talk about division of responsibility in our house.
Let's talk about the way that we're talking about other people in our house," like, all of these things.
Like for example, like my- like I said, my husband has always, he's, like, always been very, like, sensitive, in tune with his emotions.
Like, he's a musician, so I feel like that's kind of like the vibe, you know? Like, he's always been, like, I can talk about my feelings, whatever, probably better than me, honestly.
Kind of j- funny that I'm the therapist.
But so that's never been, like, a huge issue, but there have been things that, especially with us both being raised in, like, religion, that we've had to come...
Like, we've been on a little bit of different journeys with the way that we see things, and it's never that we've been...
I think it'd be different if we were, like, completely different opinions.
But it's more, like, he very much takes his time to, like, process things and learn.
And sometimes I'd be like, "Come on," like, "Why don't you understand what I'm saying? Why don't you..."
And it was more, like, he's like, "I just, I'm absorbing.
I'm all of these things."
I think it's a different conversation if your husband is not open to that.
Or I say husband, partner, whatever, whoever.
Whoever it is.
It doesn't even have to be a man, okay? Whoever you're with, if they're not open to learning and growing, then that's something different to com- to, like, contemplate, right? But I think if you can go to your partner and you can say, "Here's how I'm feeling," and it can be anything.
It can be the way you're raising your children.
It can be, you know, making sure there's, like, fair- the whole, like, fair play method with, like, a division of household stuff.
It can be anything.
If you can go to them and say, "This is how I feel.
Can we figure this out in a way that we both feel, like, aligns with our values and our beliefs and our capabilities and, like, our capacity for things?" Then that is a great place to start.
I often tell my clients who are in positions like this it's hard not to assume the worst.
And this is obviously not talking about if they're, like, talking in a demeaning way to you, or any sort of abuse.
That's a completely different topic.
But let's say, like, your spouse is really not showing up in chores, for example.
Like, they kind of expect you to do everything, and you're like, "I think it's really annoying," so it's easy to be like, "They just don't wanna help me," whatever.
That might be true.
But what if you sit down and have a conversation and say, "Hey, this is too much.
I know that you care about me, so, like, how are we gonna figure this out together so I don't feel like I'm carrying much of the mental load and the parenting and all of these things?" And then you try it out.
It's like an experiment.
You try it out together, and you see how it goes, and then you revisit it.
And I mean, that's like a relationship, right? But I do think, and this is not a like everyone needs to divorce their husband if they're not perfect, but if your values are different, that is something to, especially if you're able to see, like, a professional about this, is have that conversation and say, "At what point is this a learning conversation, and at what point is this," especially if there are children involved, "are they counteracting what I'm teaching my children? Like, can these values live in harmony in our house?" Because it's pretty...
I, and I have, I have women write into me when I talk about the Better Boy stuff often that are like, "What do I do if my husband does this?" I'm like, oh gosh, that's really hard, because you can teach them so much, but if they have this male model in their house that is the polar opposite of what you're doing, that's pretty tough.
That is pretty tough.
If you, they have an influence outside of you, like whether it's...
I also have a lot of women that write in, they're like, "Oh, this is, like, my ex-husband," and, like, for a reason.
And, or they, "I have a parent who's very much in the, like, approaches it in this way."
I think that is the type of thing that's like, if there's nothing you can do about those things, they're not a part of your household, then you just have to keep doing what you're doing, and then again, be very intentional about modeling healthy things to them in other ways.
I think I'm very lucky.
Like I said, my husband is a great role model to my sons.
My dad is a great ro- role model to my sons.
Like, we kind of have an ongoing joke that my dad cries at everything.
Like, we're like, "Are, are you crying yet? Are you crying yet?" And he's like, he's like, "Shut up!" But I joke, but they know like, oh, like my kids know like, oh, Papa is, like, sensitive, too, and that's okay.
Um, or like something as, this is like does not matter, but my side of my family is really short, and for boys, they make a big deal about being tall.
So sometimes we'll talk about, like, oh, but you know, like Papa played soccer, and he's not very tall, and he was so good at soccer and whatever.
So it's all of these things of, like, again, being...
And this goes for girls, too, when you talk about what does it mean to be you.
Like, if someone sa- says, "That's not feminine," is that really true? Like, who really cares? 'Cause when they see it all, then they worry less about the definition and more of just, like, being who they are.
So the healthy models mean a lot.
I think- If, if there are women out there that are like, you know, "There's someone in my home that's undoing all of the work that I'm doing," then that is really worth contemplating.
Like, what can you do? I know, I know not everybody, it's, like, not that easy to just be like, "Well, I just won't have a relationship with that person anymore."
But that's really, really tricky, and it's, it's hard to counteract that, I think, when it's in your own home.
Yeah.
I mean, 'cause you're also walking the balance of like, I don't wanna say like, "Look what your dad did.
That was bad."
But then I also- Right.
Yeah do wanna point out that like, "Hey, the way he treated me wasn't okay," or, "What he said about that woman in the parking lot, like, wasn't nice."
Yeah.
"Or the way he spoke to our waitress- Mm-hmm not okay.
Like, would he have done that if our waitress was a waiter?" You know? Like- Yeah.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
It's just, um, yeah.
I don't know.
I mean, hey, I'm not a therapist.
I'm just the host of the show, you guys.
I, I don't know.
Oh, my gosh.
Well, and that's why I don't see couples.
I'm like, "Mm, I think I would be too blunt."
Yeah.
I would like to see you by yourself at 9:00 AM on Monday.
Yeah.
Girl, divorce him.
Girl, get out while you can.
Yeah.
Run, run.
Yes.
No.
That's...
I'm always like, "No couples.
I can't.
Sorry.
It's too tricky."
Yeah.
"I'll see you after."
Yeah.
It's hard.
Look, it's hard being parents, and it's hard being in a relationship, and it's hard parenting together.
And, you know- Mm-hmm you and your partner were raised in two different households with two different belief systems and in some- Yeah cases, in two different religions or two different cultures- Yeah or two different places in the world or the US or whatever.
And I just think that- I think you, you hit the nail on the head when you were like, "The goal is to do better than what we had."
Not because everyone had it bad- Right.
No but because you're never going to get it completely right.
Like, I, I love that you joked, like, "My kids will be in therapy."
Like- hopefully all of our kids will be in therapy.
I hope so.
Therapy is good.
Like, we want everyone in therapy.
Yes, yes.
We just don't necessarily want them to be like, "My parents traumatized me because of X, Y, and Z."
Like- Yes maybe they're just learning things that we didn't have the capability to teach them because that stuff wasn't around.
Like, I always- Right think about how gentle parenting was not around when we were little.
Like, it was- Yeah spank your child era, right? Like, and we- Right never once thought, like, "Oh, if we teach children that hitting them is the way to get them- Yeah to comply, are we going to raise a violent generation?" It wasn't- Right until a generation- No started to be violent where we were like- Mm-hmm "Hmm.
Hmm.
Maybe hitting them- What is causing this? is not the answer."
Could it be that they're whipping them? I don't know.
Like, you know.
Who knew? It's like, yeah.
And so it's like, right, it's a balance of like, okay, yeah, now we can, you know, hold people accountable and go, "That, that wasn't the best thing," but also that's what people told you to do.
So exactly, I think you just try.
We know better now, so we do better hopefully.
That's the goal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, and look, there's a lot of shame in parenting.
I think that- Yeah a lot of times you can listen to podcasts like this episode and think like, "Oh, God, well, three years ago we had this rupture, and I didn't apologize, and I wonder if my six-year-old hates me now."
And it's like, no, your pro- Yeah your, your three-year-old probably doesn't even remember that now that they're six.
No, yeah.
But going forward, start now when they're six, right? Like- Exactly if you're like, "Oh, God, my child is 12, and I've never repaired before, 'cause I've, I didn't know how to do," maybe you get some therapy.
Learn how to repair.
Yes.
Start implementing that in your home.
Mm-hmm.
Be open with your child about- "Look, I listened to a podcast.
I realized I wasn't doing everything right.
Mommy's gonna get some support.
I'm gonna start doing some awkward things like apologizing to you."
Yeah.
"It might be a little weird at first- Yes but I just want you to know that I love you, and I make mistakes too."
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
"And I'm always supposed to keep you safe, and even when I mess up, I will come back and, and realize that maybe I didn't keep you safe, or maybe I made you feel scared when I yelled at you."
Mm-hmm.
"Or maybe I'm a little snippy because I'm super stressed.
I'm working on these things."
And I think just having- Yeah those open conversations with your children is a great start.
I don't know that it's the answer, and I don't know that there is- Yeah one singular answer, but I do think- I don't think there is, yeah that it's a really good start that a lot of us did not get in our childhoods.
100%, yeah.
No shame here, for sure.
I'm glad that you said that.
I don't want anyone to walk away from listening to this and feel like I'm doing something wrong.
I think it's just maybe there's a little nudge in- internally that's like, "Oh, wait, I haven't done that.
I should try that."
And again, I think y- if your, and if your kids are old enough, and saying to them like, "You know what? I'm gonna start doing something different.
And it, yeah, it might be kinda weird, and, you know, I'm sorry that I haven't done this before, but I'm gonna start now."
I think our kids respect us more when we're able to admit mistakes.
And again, it makes them feel safe to make their own.
So no shame, just start where you are.
Start even in small ways.
It makes a big difference.
Mm-hmm That's all you can do.
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Look, parenting is hard, you guys.
It is.
Nobody taught us how to do it, and- and- I know nobody taught our parents how to do it.
And so- Right you might have good role models, but you might not have great role models, and I don't want you to feel bad if you're like, "Well, nobody taught me how to do this."
Look, nobody taught Breeze and I how to do this either.
Like- Yeah we're just kinda winging it, too.
Right.
Exactly.
We're just sharing what's working for our family, so.
Exactly.
You know, where can people find more about your Better Boys project and download your curriculum guide? Yeah.
So you can find me on Instagram and TikTok.
My name there, I'm sure you can, like, link it or whatever, is breezelweasel.
It's my nickname that my dad gave me, actually.
So you can find me on bose- both of those platforms, and if you go to, like, my highlights on Instagram, I have all of the videos in a highlight, so you can go and watch all of those.
And then there's also a link that I just have it listed on Etsy where you can download it.
It's, like, a, a, a digital file PDF or whatever.
If you have any issues finding it, send me a message.
I check my DMs all the time.
Um, and I share this type of content all the time on both platforms, so happy to have anyone who wants to join this little community, um, and ask questions and, you know, hopefully raise a, a better generation together and improve the world together.
That's the whole goal.
Do you ever think about the weight of that? Because I think about that all the time.
I do.
Like, oh my God, like, Saggy is eventually gonna be someone's husband.
Like, I will eventually have a son-in-law or a daughter-in-law, and I, I will like- Mm-hmm I'll have to take another child into my home, which at that point they're probably adults at that point.
But, like- Yeah do you ever think about that? Like, I'm shaping the way that he's going to date and think about women's rights- Mm-hmm and think about- Mm-hmm interacting with other men and- Mm-hmm you know, the way that he's gonna be a dad one day.
Like, I think- Yeah about these things, and it can feel so- Yes scary and heavy.
Yes.
It can feel scary and heavy, but I also think, number one, the fact that, that you're even thinking that shows that you are a good parent.
Mm-hmm.
Like, I think that if a parent is not thinking, "Oh my gosh, the way I just had that interaction is, like, important," then that's something to look at, right? So I think you can have a little security in that, and then I think you can also remember, like, yes, so much of what our kids learn is at home, but we're not the only ones.
That's why it's good to have a community, whether it's grandparents or teachers or friends or families that are around you, that, like, those people are influencing them, too.
So absolutely it's a big responsibility, but again, if we're coming at this from openness and being accepting and affirming and loving toward our child and being open to any of these conversations, then- that's really what you can do.
So while it feels heavy, it also can feel very comforting to know that your kids and with all their unique personality, and quirks, and interests, and talents, is that, like, they get to bring that to the world, and you get to help them arrive there, right? So I do get it, but I think the worry is sometimes it's a good motivator as long as we don't let it consume us.
Yeah.
And it is a privilege.
I mean, it genuinely is a privilege to be able to raise the next generation.
Like- Mm-hmm I'm so excited to see what the next generation of kids look like because- Yeah I just think we're doing things so differently, and I'm excited to see If it works.
I'm excited to see how it turns out.
Yeah.
So, oh my gosh.
Breeze, thank you so much for being here.
Yeah.
You gave us your Instagram.
You gave us your guide.
Mm-hmm.
Is there any other way that people can work with you? What if people were looking for a mental health therapist? Are you taking clients there? Do they have to live in- Yeah a certain area? Tell us about that.
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
So if, um, you're looking for a therapist, I am in Washington State, so send me a DM and I can, like, and then we'll communicate over email if anyone's interested in that.
I am certified in perinatal mental health, but I do, I see a wide variety of clients.
So teen girls, uh, young adult women, moms, postpartum, whatever is kind of my niche there.
But I am accepting new clients, you just have to be in Washington, 'cause they're really strict on that stuff.
So just reach out to me directly if you are interested, and if, if I'm not a fit, then I can help you find somebody who is.
Hmm, I love it.
Oh my gosh, I love that you mentioned that too, because your therapist should be like your care provider, like your OBGYN- Yeah or your midwife or your doula.
Like, they do need to be a fit, right? Yes.
You don't wanna be seeing someone who is not aligned with you and/or- Mm-hmm isn't able to help you reach your goals.
Look, take it from me.
I've talked about therapy for, on, on here for ages.
I love therapy.
Yeah.
I've been through- Yes many a therapist and done multiple different types of therapy.
That's amazing.
I just finished with EMDR and, um- Oh, I love that stuff it's just, you guys know, I think therapy is a way of life.
And it doesn't mean that something's wrong.
Like, you should actually get into therapy- No not necessarily because something is wrong.
Like, just having an extra set of eyes that can help you- Yes navigate this crazy life is so, so, so good.
It is.
Oh my gosh, Breeze, thank you so much for being here.
You guys, thanks for- Yeah, this was great yeah, thanks for hanging out with us today, you guys.
This was super fun, and I hope that our boy moms out there listening- I hope that this was helpful.
I know that it doesn't come with an instruction manual, and I know that many of us were not necessarily raised in the house that we wanna raise our children in.
It doesn't mean that it's good or bad, it just means that we wanna do things different, and I think that's great.
That's so commendable and, and I love that for you, but I also know that so many of you are like, "Okay, I wanna do it different, but I don't know how."
I hope this conversation was a starting point for you.
I hope you use it as a launching pad.
I hope that it got your wheels turning, and now you have a couple of resources that you can go to.
Breeze mentioned a couple of books.
We can link those in the show notes.
You have The Birth Lounge.
Breeze is a resource.
Her Instagram is a resource.
Get her guide, and I will see you guys in the next episode.
Be sure to follow Breeze on social media, and you can find me at tranquilitybyhehe and at the.birth.lounge.
Until next time, head to your app store and download The Birth Lounge app for evidence-based childbirth education and data-driven postpartum support delivered straight to your phone.
Bye.
Bye.
Thank you so much for tuning in today.
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