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Activating Sustainability | Ep 57: Leading through Uncertainty · Activating Sustainability

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:08
  Speaker B: Welcome to Activating Sustainability, the Anthesis podcast. I'm your host, Chris Peterson. Today's discussion is all about leading through uncertainty. And in this moment, on this episode, we're speaking with Ben Wielgus, head of sustainability at Informa and a dedicated sustainability professional working to make value creation for multiple stakeholders, such as something the business wants to and can deliver. Ben is speaking today as a thought leader in the sustainability space and the opinions he shares are his and not necessarily those of Informa. Along with Ben, we've got Ben Heyman joining us, who's an executive director in Anthesis Group's leadership and Change team and was one of the lead authors on the recent Leading Through Uncertainty research. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for doing this now.
• 0:51
  Speaker C: You're very welcome. It's good to meet you all.
• 0:54
  Speaker A: Thanks for having us.
• 0:55
  Speaker B: Maybe to get us started, given the depths of both of your experiences, how are you seeing and thinking about the current moment of sustainability?
• 1:04
  Speaker C: Yeah, I was thinking about this in advance and the truth is I think we all think sustainability is in crisis at the moment, but I don't think it's the crisis we think it is. And I'm increasingly thinking it's of our own making. So sustainability has always been challenging and like a lot of trends, we had our moment in the sun over the last few years and all of a sudden the situation has changed. And persuading people to do things that are sustainable is proving more difficult. We're not just doing it for the moral reasons that we were a few years ago, we're actually having to justify it and build a business case again. But this is exactly what we went through back in 2008 during the last financial crisis when we moved from CSR. Let's give money to charities because it's a good thing to do to sustainability because it makes our business viable in the long run. And I think we just have to get back into our discipline of explaining to people why sustainability is so great for business and for the world.
• 1:55
  Speaker A: Yeah, I feel the same way. I think in the industry can get lost in our own narratives around sustainability and they might be positive while they might be negative. And anyone who's attended a sustainability conference over the last five years will probably have left feeling frustrated that they've either heard it all before or there aren't enough in the way of solutions or new ideas. But actually a lot of progress is being made and I think there's some areas of the way the that we've set out businesses that are now you can't go backwards. And despite sort of prevailing narratives around the challenges around change, particularly in North America and particularly with difficult economic conditions, I think there is a momentum behind the sustainability agenda that has become really sort of positive and powerful. We shouldn't forget that. I also think at the same time that there's frustration. I feel the frustration that we're not pushing on enough with enough confidence, enough energy, enough positivity, enough aggression sometimes to, to actually the change that we want to see in the world. Because as the people who are experts in the discipline, I think it falls on us to set the bar for what good enough looks like. And I think there's a danger that we slip into compliance mode as we are more heavily regulated or that there's, there's more requirements for reporting rather than in pioneering mode where we are actually looking to set about creating and maintaining that positive change. So I think for me it's two sides. Yes, there's positivity and momentum and we shouldn't forget that. But, but I think we also shouldn't conversely rest on our laurels and we should push harder.
• 3:24
  Speaker C: That positively momentum is really key, I think, because we tend to focus on the things we haven't done yet. And the press loves to focus on the few companies that are stepping back because it's a good scandal and it's unprecedented to step back on sustainability. But by and large, I think the majority of companies are still moving on because it makes economic sense. If renewable power is the cheapest power on the planet, of course we're going to by that and invest in that. So I think we've got to stop kicking ourselves and worrying about the stuff that isn't happening and focus on how do we actually go forward.
• 3:54
  Speaker A: I think while there is momentum making sure that we then understand how to use that positive energy, but also the facts around the change that we're experiencing and let other people in organizations that we work in understand and relate to the idea of positive change through sustainability in ways that will connect with their agendas as well and not just say, oh, aren't we fantastic? Isn't it wonderful that sustainability moving on and progressing at such speed or with such consistency. Let's make it as relevant as possible to different stakeholders as well.
• 4:25
  Speaker B: Maybe there's a couple pieces I'd love to unpack within that. So one is the sense of clients versus pioneering that Benham and you, you mentioned. Right. And I think the CSRD experience has been an interesting chapter in the sustainability story over the last little bit. And so maybe Ben could you reflect a little bit on how you've seen that within the space?
• 4:46
  Speaker C: You said the magic acronym there, didn't you? Csrd. We've almost done this to ourselves. It's sort of that the challenges we're facing are somewhat self inflicted as a profession because we really wanted to measure everything. And we love a bit of regulation because in theory it makes our job easier because we've got a stick now we can go and hit people with. And it got us lots of attention. But what's happened, I think, is that we've become so focused on measurement and compliance, we've forgotten to do the stuff that inspires people to change. And a lot of what we're trying to do as a team, as colleagues, is figure out what do we have to measure and how rigorously do we have to measure it. And then let's put every ounce of energy we've got beyond that into making the change and tell people about that. Because that's what's going to make my colleagues and my peers step up and go, actually, that's cool. I want to be part of that. I want to be part of that change. I want to make my product better. I want to help my customers have a better experience. Not that we've been able to measure something to the incredible detail that the CSRD pushes us towards. And to be honest, I'm hated in the organization sometimes when I turn up and talk about csrd. But if I talk about a cool new product that we're doing on sustainability or how we've helped a client solve a problem, I think that's really exciting. And I don't want to say we're going to get back to basics because so many people, basics is reporting. But we need to stop ourselves hiding in that safe space of reporting and instead go back onto the frontiers as Ben you talked about, and put ourselves at risk of being pushed back on. Because what we're doing is trying to persuade people of a different way of doing things rather than making them do the compliance.
• 6:12
  Speaker A: I think to build on that as well. Ben, I think we've become so focused on CSRD and other kind of regulatory requirements, we forget what the broader business really cares about. And you know, plugging into those metrics I think is really, really important as well. And we can't ignore compliance and we can't ignore what good practice in measurement looks like and reporting looks like. But we also need to get our heads up and go, well, what do people across the organization, what do my colleagues care about? What are they measuring what are the business obsessing over, what are the shareholders or stakeholders within the business really focus focusing on right now? And how can we contribute to that story or at least integrate our offer into that story as well? Because we can. I mean, more often than not we can. It's just that we're sort of looking down and in rather than up and out. It was one of the points that came out of the study that we've done recently around leading and uncertainty that the kind of imperative or requirement for sustainability leaders to align the agenda with the broader business agenda. Otherwise you get lost or you get bucketed somewhere which isn't part of core business and core performance success, which is really, really important.
• 7:15
  Speaker B: Really keen to dig in in terms of like how do we get past this as we go forward? But just before we do, there's one other piece that Ben, you had shared when we had a chance to connect previously about kind of the exhaustion in the field at the moment. What I thought was really grateful and valuable context and kind of getting the facts on the table as we think about where we go from here.
• 7:35
  Speaker C: Yeah, I think you caught me in a vulnerable moment when we were talking about that. So I think this is true. One of the great things about what we've been through as a sustainability profession the last few years is that we have been front and center. We were the flavor of the day. We've got over two or three years. People were really excited about what sustainability could deliver because everyone wants to come to work knowing they made the world a better place and it links with the wider purpose conversation as well. People want to feel like what they're doing has meaning and not creating harm on a day to day basis. So sustainability was famous for a while. We got extra resources, we were trying to do big projects, we had the bravery to that. We hired more people, but we also got new regulations, new frameworks. The expectations were more internal audit and external audit started showing up like the wave of change and growth that came over us meant that we had to grow as professionals. I've never worked so hard in my life and many of my peers have worked even harder than that. And I think we're tired and I think now that the resistance is there again, I don't know how, how the people listening are feeling, but I think sometimes it's quite hard to get up, go out and put yourself at personal risk and risk of looking like a fool and try and persuade people to change. Whereas it's quite easy when you're tired to sit at the computer and open up an Excel sheet or whatever reporting platform you use and just, just check some data and see if we can refine the data a bit, because that's safe. No one's going to come and bother me. No one's going to shout at me. No one's going to call me a fool or a hippie, tree hugger or sheeple or whatever else. But I also realized that in doing that, we're not doing the stuff that sustains and gives us energy back. So we're staying in a safe space that doesn't drain our energy, but we're also not doing the stuff that drives and thrives so many of the profession. And so what I'm, I'm very conscious of is this is an inflection point for the sustainability world where maybe we, we drop some of the workload because we're not quite as under the public eye as we used to be, but we choose to go with the stuff that gives us the energy to go and make change in the world rather than hiding in that safe space of reporting and compliance, because that's not going to solve the problems we've got in the crisis that we're facing. I think we need to reflect on. We had an amazing few years. We've all grown, but we've had very little time to invest in ourselves and think about what is it that will keep us going over the next 10 years of change?
• 9:45
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, I love that insight because that aligns with so much of what Ben Heyman and I and our peers and colleagues are hearing across the space, but articulate in such a. A valuable way. So I'm going to shift us to how do we inspire change within the organizations? How do we build this momentum? And as you both think about kind of big picture, what are some of the things that you're finding working today? Or, Ben, as you think about that challenge, how do you shift gears and find that next kind of bucket of energy to keep moving?
• 10:17
  Speaker C: There's so many things I could talk about here. I think some of it is remembering that sustainability bit. Like the medical profession and a few others, we do have a tendency towards martyrdom. We'll work extra long, we'll work extra hard. Chris, just before we started the call, you were saying how you'd been involved in a development project in Africa and it's possible to throw every hour of every day into that and skip meals and give that to the people that you meet, but then you're not able to do the work that you do. So that idea of just being aware that you need to look after yourself and recharge is key. I think we've got to recognize we've got to do the basic job we've got to do around reporting, compliance, indices, measurement, and we have to do that well. But being honest with ourselves that maybe there's some places we can just duct tape it together and move on. You know, there's certain metrics that I just don't feel are going to make a strategic difference the business. And if we're required to measure them, let's do it to the minimum level of quality we need to. And if we don't have to measure it, let's not measure it. But for me, the stuff that really flips the narrative rather than that self care and safe space stuff is find the allies out there who can really work with us. And we've had great experience over the last five years working with Ben, with your team, with given an AMP thesis. And we come out of those sessions energized because we can find the way forward. And then I think if, for me, if I don't get out in the business and talk to the people in the business on a really regular basis and find the stories that they're proud of around what they're doing on sustainability responsibility, I just, I sort of lose momentum myself. So I know I've got to get out there. It's quite hard to do, it's expensive, you know, it takes time. But when you're out there, you hear all of the amazing things that people are doing and think, well, how do I share that with others? How do I catalyze that so that it's not me haranguing people, but we're going out there as, as, as storytellers and champions of the great stuff people are already doing and helping them do that? And we, we a few times in our team is how do we help people be the human beings at work they want to be? Because as I said, they want to actually walk away from that at the end of day and be proud of what they're doing. Ben, I mean, we work together a fair amount. I mean, how do you keep your energy levels going because you're working with a lot of people trying to inspire them to do more.
• 12:14
  Speaker A: That's a really interesting one because I think for us as consultants and advisors and partners as well, I think, well, personally I get a lot of my energy from that variety. I think that's just the way my brain works. It's, you know, I enjoy working with you and your team. And I enjoy having to toggle, to switch to another challenge in another type of industry and another type of team. So I certainly get a lot of personal energy from that, like, requirement for dexterity. And the other thing that I think provides energy is, Is learning. So you learn something new, you achieve something personally, which is sort of. It could be the accumulation of knowledge, but ideally the accumulation and use of that knowledge. And I think that is massively rewarding and that provides energy. So as a consultant or advisor or partner, that is a very useful kind of reciprocal relationship that we have with our clients. We advise and we provide guidance based on our experience and our analysis of the situation. But we also get. Well, again, I can't speak for all my colleagues, but I get a lot of energy from the interactions that I have with you and your team and my other clients as well. And it's very positive because as you say, there are lots of people in the space who are genuinely nice, hugely insightful, massively experienced, and really interesting and very ambitious as well. So I think once you're on a program of work, you get a lot of collect of energy from that experience. I think where energy dissipates slightly is where you then have to try and put that change into practice. And you see the stuff that pulls you down is where you get into the quagmire of the bureaucracy of the organization that you're facing. Or suddenly something gets slammed down, a door gets slammed in your face that you thought was open, and the agenda shifts within an organization. And suddenly the work that you're doing becomes a report that exists on the shelf rather than a set of actions that exist in a plan. And that, yeah, that's hard. That feels hard to take. And more than losing energy, it creates frustration. And I think the danger there is that frustration, it turns to detachment. And if you become increasingly and continually frustrated, I think you start to think, well, what's the point? You know, what is it that I'm actually doing? What is the change that I'm creating? Because no one gets into this industry just to tick boxes or stay comfortable for a couple of years. Everyone. Everyone's here because they want to create change. And we know that it's important that that change happens quickly. So I think everyone's restless for that. So I think anything that stifles that or puts a lid on that can create, yeah, frustration and ultimately detachment.
• 14:41
  Speaker C: I'm chuckling away because with a few notable exceptions, I think our profession is exceptionally bad at recognizing our achievements. Because we're always looking at, oh, there's another problem we've got to fix or we haven't done it perfectly or there's still people who need help. And actually, whenever I gather my team together, which we've been lucky enough to do once a year, is to bring the whole team together, we do an exercise at the start where we reflect on how things have moved on in a year and how much we've achieved. And it's always shocking. There'll be 100, 150, 200 post its on the wall of stuff we've achieved. And I'm sure that's the only tip of the iceberg. And it's not just my team that does that, it's the whole organization that's been incentivized. And you can sit back now after three or four or five years and go, wow, actually we are in such a better place than we were because although we're always focused on changing solutions, we've seen 50 or 80% reduction in waste in carbon, we've hundreds of thousands of people connected, but we sort of forget that because we're always looking at the next bits. And I think, and I think that's a source of resilience for me. I have to do that and I have to find, I bring that to the team and help them see that as well. Because when you're in the depths of the spreadsheet, that's a problem. We can all come up with these lofty plans. But that bit, that magic of transforming the plan, maybe even deciding which bits of the plan you don't do yet. But these are the open doors. And that's actually how I got my job, was I was able to demonstrate that I'd taken a 31 point strategic plan. Don't know how you can have 31 points in a strategic plan. And we actually went around a business and we implemented it in 30 different operating divisions by picking the two or three bits that each will do and celebrating the 10 or 15 bits of that plan they had already done. And we try and do that now. If I might go back though, I think you also touched on something else and this is going to make me sound terribly arrogant, but bear with me. In talking to my boss, one of the things I try and get him to realize is I think sustainability professionals, particularly those who've been here a while, we have to be not a jack of all trades and master of none, but almost a master of all trades, or what you might call, I think, a polyglot or A Renaissance man or a renaissance woman. Because I can't think of many professions where in a day you'll go from talking about building energy management to talking about diversity, to doing with your budget to then doing some people management, to then talk about politics and working in 30 different countries in any given week with different phone calls and having to be able to do an incredibly robust auditable spreadsheet whilst being able to write an incredibly engaging piece of comms, whilst being able to present in a leadership team meeting and then go out and inspire a group of facilities managers that need to be chameleonic is both one of the things that gives the business absolute joy, absolute interest, because we're constantly engaging with people from all sorts of backgrounds. But it is all utterly exhausting. Like you're going to really royally mess up in doing that. And if I get through a week where I haven't really screwed up or really embarrassed myself once, I count that, a very successful week. But also maybe I've not put myself out there as much as I need to to try and get in there and engage and change. So I sort of find that the variety is great, but it's also double edged swords. But it's the stuff that if you get it right, it can be really engaging.
• 17:46
  Speaker A: There's an interesting thing in there as well, Ben, about your role within your team, because you're a leader within your team, so people are looking at you for inspiration and they want you to be inspired as a pioneer. So actually they want to see you putting yourself out there and taking risks and doing things. But also you're going to need to embody consistency and surety and give them comfort that you're doing the right thing. So how do you manage that tension? Because we all have different hats that we wear within the context of the profession.
• 18:14
  Speaker C: I think as any leader, you need to run the gamut between someone who creates and champions a vision, someone who fosters collaboration, somebody who takes the blame when things go wrong. Because it's always you who's next on the line. You have to be an authoritarian sometimes. And I think one of the hardest things to me, but one of the things that's most important to acknowledge as a sustainability leader is in our team. Probably once a month I'll find myself saying it's okay to not know what we're doing because nobody's ever done this before. We're the largest in informal, we're the largest organizer of events in the world and nobody's done most of what we're trying to do at the moment. So I constantly feel like there's a risk of imposter syndrome. In fact, I talked to our chairman about this quite, quite a while ago and they can't believe that there's a sense of imposter syndrome because sustainable professionals are experts, but we're experts at figuring how to solve problems that haven't been solved yet. So helping the team be uncomfortable with that level of uncertainty is key. Helping them find the solutions to it and the method of finding that solution and being comfortable with a degree of ambiguity in that we don't necessarily know what CSRD is going to look like. So how do we put ourselves in the best position? We don't really know how our suppliers are going to respond to initiatives. So how do we test that water? And so how do we give my team the confidence to trust in themselves that they do know what they're doing and to know where to go when they need the sense check rather than just plowing on ahead? And it's difficult, but it's actually one of the things that gives me the most pleasure is seeing some incredible young professionals in sustainability, and maybe not so young these days as well. Absolutely. Step up. There's one person who's been with us since an intern and she's been promoted four times and another person who joined us through an acquisition who radically changed the way we do things and now has been promoted twice as well. And it's enormously rewarding. Our job as leaders is to create the conditions where they thrive and we're successful through their success. I always prefer as a leader not to go into the board or into the common say, look at what I've done. In fact, I feel deeply uncomfortable. The CEO talks about Ben's sustainability team. It's the company's approach to sustainability and what thousands of people are doing. But I do love being able to show off when someone in my team has done an amazing job because that's them stepping to be their best performing selves. Sounds really cheesy. Sorry.
• 20:25
  Speaker B: No, it's amazing and it's so inspiring. And Ben Heyman, to your earlier point, we get so much inspiration from being able to see what our partners are doing within the space and creating those types of safe spaces and enabling conditions for that kind of success of the team is so fascinating. Ben Heyman, I know you just participated in a recent research study looking at that kind of leading through uncertainty and there were a number of strategies that came through that. And I'm curious, kind of reflecting on Ben's comments and what you saw within that, Are there some that kind of jump out to you?
• 20:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. I mean, the. The leading in uncertainty report that we've just created was based on a research study of employees in UK organizations. And we were largely asking them questions about the qualities and attributes that they were looking for in leaders in difficult and challenging times. And we're particularly looking through the lens of purpose and sustainability. And when we asked the question what are the key attributes or qualities of leaders in navigating difficult times? The answers were really clear and also massively simple, which is what I really liked about them because it gives any leader a very short checklist of things that they should be doing every day and an easy way to control against either sort of laziness or sloppiness or distraction because we're all distracted by multiple things at any time. The top three qualities that people were looking for in their leaders were clear communication. So that was number one by some considerable margin. So clarity in what you were telling people and how you were showing up. And again, I think it's easy to forget how important communication is when you're focused on the doing or the delivering or the complying or the conversations that you should be having with your stakeholders. Clear communication to the people that you're leading. And not just seeing your team as the people that you're leading, but if you're in a position like Ben, is that the whole of the organization? So how do we communicate effectively with a really diverse, dispersed group as well? So it's a challenge. It's a. It's an easy thing. Again, easy thing to say, difficult thing to do to clear communication was one then the second was positive energy, which I really love as well. Going back to our earlier conversation, because what we're doing is tiring and what we're doing doesn't always feel positive. And certainly the conditions that we're working into and the insight that we have around the state that the world is in now, whether it's socially or environmentally, can feel really draining. But positivity is absolutely key for leadership. And people are looking to their leaders to provide them with some of that energy that we talked about to go again, you know, to push harder, to be the pioneers. So we have to work out ways of topping up the tank as leaders. And remember that, that when we walk into the room or when we join the call or when we stand up in front of a crowd, that people are looking at us, they're looking at our demeanor, they're looking at how we show up, they're listening for clues as to how they should be behaving or how they should be perceiving the level of success that we're experiencing. And that positive energy is absolutely critical in leading to uncertainty. And then the third, which was very gratifying, was having clarity and consistency around your purpose. So this might not be a solid articulation of every individual's purpose or every organizational purpose, but being consistent about what it is that you believe in and your long term agenda and the way you might achieve that long term agenda may change, and that's by virtue of necessity. And it often is the case that we have to adapt in order to achieve our goals. But being clear and consistent in your purpose was really, really important to people. Again, I say that's gratifying because this is an area of work I focus on a lot, like organizational purpose and the sort of the why or the North Star. And sometimes that idea is diminished slightly because it doesn' focus on your immediate quarterly reporting and your, you know, the financial concerns and the political realities that you're operating into. But what we heard from employees was that that is really important in leaders. That's what drives the long term followership. We talk a lot about followership. So preconditions for being a good leader, you need to remember that you are looking to inspire a group of people to follow you. That's the point. And you need to enable that and think about that. So positivity, good communication, but also that clarity and consistency around your purpose. I've got some more information on the kind of actions that you can take to achieve those. But for me, it's just a really great tick list to think about how you show up. So am I communicating clearly? Am I showing up with positivity? Am I staying consistent and true to my purpose as a leader and on behalf of the organization that I work for? That's simple stuff.
• 24:55
  Speaker C: It was a really interesting report to read, actually, because you can almost as a leader, go through it and audit yourself against it. You know, how do I feel about that? And for me it was quite provocative reading that because those three things on one level are really easy, and another level they're incredibly difficult at the same time. But clear communication, by the time you reach a leadership position, you should be clear, you should be able to articulate. But doing that in the heat of the moment and consistently at all times, giving people the stability during unstable times. And the words that resonated with me across was authenticity. You know, like, how do you show up Every time knowing you're a leader that people can trust because you've got to guide them through uncertain times. I think there's, there's an integrity to it. You know, if you are going to have to change your targets or if you've missed a target, be really clear why and what's the decision there. And sometimes it might just be you got screwed over, but a lot of times it's actually we're needed to balance people, profit and planet. Sometimes planet doesn't always win out. And there's an old word, I think, which needs to come back into fashion, which is the idea and concept of honor and honoring the stakeholders that you work with and honoring your team that you're here to help support them, be great, rather than trying to kind of self aggrandize yourself. And I think that's what, when you hear clear communication, it's not about being able to put a PowerPoint slide together. It's about always showing up in that right way. I think that comes with energy because if you bring your authentic self, of course it's going to have energy. The vision some ways is the hardest because it's that difference between what you as a leader want to achieve and what the organization and the world can accept. And I think we are entering a little bit of a difficult time right now because a lot of people had 2025 targets and 2025 strategies. Some we've hit, some we've missed. And what does that pivot look like? Are we going to be able to build on it given the 25 targets many organizations had, were crazy ambitious. They were never going to be achieved, but they were good things to aim for. And how do you do that without feeling like it's a retraction? And even if you're trying to be clearer in your targets, because things like Science Based Target Institute are moving goalposts, how do you not make it look like you've stepped away from a target just because you've had to articulate it more clearly? So I think those three things you talked about are going to be essential over the next 12, 18, 24 months, as so many organizations have to grapple with the promises they made and the reality they're living with.
• 27:01
  Speaker B: One quick reflection I'll share, just from a North American context that's been really interesting, has been kind of the dramatic shift in DEI and getting to work with a number of procurement departments, et cetera. And it's been fascinating to see the organizations that are so clear on their values and that this actually provided an opportunity for them to really demonstrate that commitment outside of necessarily the communication or the PowerPoints, as you were saying Ben, but really in terms of, you know, engaging with those organizations, you could hear a big difference with those organizations. With that our values are not shifting at all, our actions will remain the same. The way we talk about it externally may vary, but like that confidence in the organization, that authenticity came through really clearly. And so it's fascinating to see how that translates throughout the organization and relation to reflect on this both as a challenge but as an incredible opportunity to demonstrate that those are our core values, right or these are the things we believe in and this is our purpose outside of the external drivers. And so it really is that kind of opportunity to prove those commitments when the going is tough.
• 28:08
  Speaker A: As you said, I think, you know, there's a whole adage about integrity being what you do when nobody's watching, but I think in this case is what you do when everyone's watching, you know, so it's how do you deliver that clarity and purpose and the integrity and equality of your values when there's greater scrutiny on what it is you're actually doing? Another scrutiny that some of the time you're going to be breaking the law unless you're careful. So you have to be overconscious of that without losing sight of why it is you're here and why is your people are here as well.
• 28:36
  Speaker C: I think I'm worried about the green hushing where they're doing this anyway. They're just doing it below the radar because I think that creates a sense of retreat where maybe exists. And I think ultimately we've got to hope that culture and human beings will prevail. But sometimes it is quite difficult to be human beings on a quarterly profits targets. And that's also what I think sustainability and DE and I have been trying to do is help us all be decent people in sometimes structures that don't necessarily create that long term thinking.
• 29:04
  Speaker B: So curious as both of you look ahead to the next kind of 6 to 12 months, what are some of the priorities or tactics that you're thinking about putting in place to execute on some of these ambitions and approaches?
• 29:17
  Speaker C: A lot of stuff and I think maybe lessons for myself probably come out throughout this conversation is the first thing is you need to sustain yourself as a leader. You know, how do I make sure that I've got the energy and the resilience to show up for my people? I think there is an element of being confident in trying to stick to your guns and your principles, but recognize where you might need to bend. And ultimately I think we're gonna have to make some really tough choices about where we put our personal and corporate energies and resources. And I'm a massive believer in what I've often called the MacGyver approach, or just duct taping stuff together so that it keeps going while you focus on the stuff you really need to change. And for me, there's one strategic program that I want to in five years time know. If I do nothing else with my life in the next five years, that's the thing I want to look back on and say I gave it everything I could because it will make the biggest legacy difference. And I think as long as I know what that North Star is where I want to put my time into, I can be comfortable with everything else. But I also know it's a five year goal. So I've got to have the team and the energy and create the excitement for everybody else because you can't get there by yourself because you will have a milk out. So I think that all kind of links back to what you said, Ben. Really clear with myself and with others what we need to do and turn up with the energy to have that positivity where people know that it's going to be all right at the end of it.
• 30:34
  Speaker A: Well, as a kind of partner and a guy from multiple different types of businesses at different stages in their journey towards sustainable performance, I think my job in the next next few years should be enabling people to take that reset moment that Ben's described. Enabling people to see the successes that they've achieved, but also challenging them to push further and go harder and move faster. And I think that's difficult as a, an advisor because I've always been schooled in really understanding my client's business, providing pragmatic approaches to ensure that we can actually get stuff done. And however small it is, we can incrementally create a sort of positive change in understanding both the culture and the operation that we're working into. But I'd love to challenge myself and to challenge my colleagues within anthesis to push our clients harder, to enable them to feel the confidence and courage of their convictions which we know obviously exist and give them more resources to sort of fight the good fight. Because I think our clients, Ben and others don't need us to be yes people. We could be provocateurs, we could be challenges. We could be people who provide our clients with more energy and courage and support. And I'd love to make that Happen more for the people that I work with. I think that's a personal challenge as well as one that I will encourage my peers to think about because that's the role we need to play in the world. Right. It's not just getting the job done, doing the simple stuff well, picking the low hanging fruit. I think we've got to see ourselves as the people who are going to be partnering with the pioneers within industry, within businesses who are going to be, be, be making the big change and doing the hard things really, really well. So that requires extra reserves of energy and it requires us to be better at pushing harder, which is sometimes difficult. You know, that's not an easy thing to do. The only other thing which I think is really important is the idea of a broader base of education that we can provide, all of us can provide in the sustainability industry for people across our businesses so that they are both inspired to act and to get involved, but also have sort of of base levels of understanding of some of the things that we are talking about. So it is less othering. It doesn't feel like something that exists somewhere else in the business. It feels like something that is relevant to what I do, whoever I am, wherever I work.
• 32:46
  Speaker B: Yeah. Amazing. We'd love to get just a final word of wisdom from each of you as we look ahead or reflecting on this conversation or others you've had within the space.
• 32:55
  Speaker A: A final word of wisdom. Well, I think the final word is just to remember to do the simple things really well if you're a leader within sustainability. And we should all consider ourselves to be leaders in this space because we need more followers. Followers. So I think our role naturally has to be leaders. Whatever we do, whatever our job title, communicate well, show up with energy and understand your purpose and stay consistent. I think it's really, really important that we repeat and repeat the good things that we could be doing rather than invent and invent the new things that we could be doing. So let's do those three things well. I think it will make a difference.
• 33:27
  Speaker B: Love it. And then Ben, final words. You.
• 33:29
  Speaker C: Yeah, well, after, after 25 years in sustainability and long enough that I had a full head of hair when I started in the profession, I think I have learned too importance of looking after yourself so that you can show up for others and help them be the leaders they can be in the future. And I think you do that through keeping telling the stories of all the successes that other people are having and being very authentic in the fact that you want to lead people towards that.
• 33:52
  Speaker B: Well, thank you both so much for all the time and insight. Really appreciate it so much to take out of this conversation. So thank you again.
• 33:59
  Speaker C: Thank you.
• 34:00
  Speaker B: Thanks, Chris, and thank you all for listening. We'll include links to the report Ben Heyman referenced leading through uncertainty in the meeting notes and is available on our anthesisgroup.com website where you'll also find past episodes and lots of valuable resources. Thanks again and take care of.