Latest / Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce / 243. Why “Gentle Parenting” Might Fail After Divorce—And What Actually Works to Support Your Childs Attachment Style Needs

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243. Why “Gentle Parenting” Might Fail After Divorce—And What Actually Works to Support Your Childs Attachment Style Needs · Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce

• 0:49
  Speaker 1: On today's episode we are diving into the real, real-life complexities of parenting after divorce.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Not the Pinterest-perfect kind, but the messy, beautiful, growth-filled kind.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: My guest, reem Rauda, a parenting expert who's redefining what it means to raise resilient, emotionally healthy kids in the middle of major life transitions.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Emotionally healthy kids in the middle of major life transitions Whether you're co-parenting, solo parenting or figuring it all out one meltdown at a time, this episode is for you.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Hi love, welcome to Dear Divorce Diary, the podcast helping divorcees go beyond talk therapy to process your grief, find the healing you crave and build back your confidence.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, dawn Wiggins, a therapist, coach, integrative healer and divorcee.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Join me for a fresh approach to healing grief and building your loves.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: We are so lucky to have reem rada with us today.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: She is a parenting expert known.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: If you don't follow her on ig, like rush to follow her on ig, right.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: She is a parenting expert known for helping caregivers raise emotionally healthy kids without losing themselves in the process.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: With a background in psychology and a heart for real-life parenting, not perfection, she guides families through transitions like divorce with empathy, clarity and practical tools.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Her mission is simple to help parents break generational cycles and build deep, lasting connection with their kiddos, even in the messiest seasons.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Reem welcome.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: It is a long time coming.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: I feel like to have you.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: I'm super picky about guests, like super picky, and I found you on Instagram one day and was so excited to see your journals.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Right, you have multiple journals and I immediately bought one and then featured one of them on the podcast and then that's it right.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: We connected on IG and I'm so excited.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: But your content on IG is so profoundly spot on, right.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: It speaks to the heart of the issue.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: You deliver a lot of very hard truths on there and responding positively.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Do you agree?
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, I get a little nervous each time I press.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: You know share I love hearing you say that Because I know they are, you know, raw and bold and you know truth bombs.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: But that's you know why I post them.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: They are truths that we need to hear and need to face and need to understand and look in the mirror and face these, you know ugly truths, because these, the this is the only way to you know change and form.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, talk about that a lot over here.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Number one I know our listeners have this desire to break the cycle, but then in the cycle breaking it often feels lonely, hard, like endless challenges, right.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: But also we talk about that idea that a person can only grow in direct proportion to how honest they can be about like facing themselves and the things they really don't want to see or understand about their own selves.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what you do.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: You show us our yeah, yeah, I mean.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: I.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: I hope it doesn't seem like it's coming from a higher place.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: It's coming from an experienced place of you know being at rock bottom and you know having a breakdown, mental breakdown and literally shattering, and then starting fresh and having that experience of you know a before and after with my, with my child because of that.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: So I share it, to inspire, to help and to really um show that you know they're not stuck, because so many of us, like I, felt stuck.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: I felt okay, wow, this is extremely challenging and this is how it's going to be.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: And then that's not the truth at all.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Once I had my moment, had my epiphany, you know, did the work and all the stuff that's in Foundations, the journal, it's such a it lifts weight off of you and you see that parenting isn't so hard.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: It isn't, it shouldn't be that hard.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: We make it hard for ourselves, I know, but I think that and this is a different tangent we don't need to go down, but I think we've been sold that lie on so many levels that we're supposed to stay moderately sick and everything's supposed to be.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Parenting is hard and health is hard and menopause is everything's hard yeah.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: We're not supposed to be this out of balance or out of alignment, and we're certainly not meant to be chronically out of alignment the way we seem to have just been told like, oh, that's, you're just, that's just how it is.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, exactly.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: So I have some beautiful questions for you.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: So you can, you know, teach us all the things we're missing.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: I love that you said it's not coming from a higher place and I love that you shared the rock bottom that you came from.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm sure there's people who are committed to seeing you as someone who thinks they're better than but I don't read your content that way at all.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: I think you share a lot vulnerably about the things you've transformed and to me your content reads as very integrated, someone who's speaking from experience and that and science right, and I think those two things combined are so powerful.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Good.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: From that experience and that wisdom that also science adds to it.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: We talk a lot about emotional safety these days and I sort of don't love that concept of emotional safety because I think a lot of times we too often are trying to outsource our emotional safety to our environment right, and we have to own that.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: So I'd be so curious to hear what your take is.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: But what do most people misunderstand about creating emotional safety in parenting, especially to do with divorce?
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Well, I think the idea or what we hear when we hear emotional safety is calm, collected, peaceful, and that's not it at all really especially after divorce or during divorce, there is conflict, there is not a lot of calm, and maintaining emotional safety during I mean, during the hard times, but always is not about keeping the peace.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: It's about being so present that you allow all of those feelings, you allow all of those big, big emotions, and that your children know they can have them, and you're not going anywhere and you're not shaking, and your, your, your acceptance and understanding I mean, that's part of it, though is that we need that understanding to have to not self abandon.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Right To not self abandon.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: I'm seeing a lot.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you, I'm going through a divorce right now and my going through a divorce right now and my, my son, who's seven, is having a lot of behavioral changes and emotions and and conflict which we would expect right.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: If he wasn't, we would say something's off.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, and it's been, though, extremely challenging, just because of the new defiance, the new hitting the new, all the stuff that's coming, which is that is so not normal in our home, and reacting, responding in a way that I truly have to just go so bare to the bone and see what is actually happening, so that my nervous system, so my triggers, so my ego, so my hormones, don't react, you know.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: And and he needs my emotional safety more than anything in this whole world right now, in those hard moments, and can I show up, can I give it to him, can I hold him when he's literally hitting me, or do I?
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: You know, I know we're human and it's.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: I've had moments where I've yelled and I've, you know, I just broke, because I'm getting it from many different directions right now and it's almost impossible to, day after day, be able to hold your child the way they need to be held.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: But let me tell you, it is extremely hard, but emotional safety is my anchor, that is what I keep telling myself my child needs and that's what is keeping me anchored in that moment.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: And so it's about holding space, it's about you having capacity for his emotional expression, yeah.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: And then it sounds like there's a lot of discernment involved in knowing how to respond in that moment, based on what's unfolding, right.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so how would you, for instance because I'm sure there's a redirect around hitting right, but knowing when and how to implement that takes that presence you talked about being really, really present.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: And then also, where are you going to dump your rage and your anxiety and your panic and your whatever?
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: Because that's what he's doing, right, he's expressing appropriate rage and distress and whatever.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: But then, yes, to your point, it's like, okay, you have cultivated this amazing nervous system capacity to tolerate his big emotions without your ego getting all in the way.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: But that is an energetic exchange that then you have to discharge yourself.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I've been leaning on my friends more than ever.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: I'm usually not the type to call up a girlfriend and be like I need you, but I am.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: These days I'm like I need you.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: I just need to vent.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: I need to.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: I need support.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: I'm doing the best to keep my self-care routine like long walks, baths.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: My sleep is very important.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: I'm meditating more than I normally do, so I'm taking care of myself.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Adaptogens, teas, all day you know doing all the things.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: A little story a couple of weeks ago my friend had us over for a barbecue and my son was having a hard day and refused to get out of the car and was very, you know, kind of people watching expecting me to, you know, be really rigid, yeah, but expecting me to be more stern, and they were seeing his defiance as disrespect where I was seeing it as hurt, and really that's underneath all tantrums is hurt, especially around the D word.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: So it was just so interesting for I just felt so like this is what the traditional Projections and judgments that the things they project onto yeah.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: And then my way, which is completely different.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: It really is different, I mean, to the traditional way, and I'm trying to bring people more on my end because if I had done what they would have suggested or they thought I should do, it would have broken my son in a million more pieces than he already was, you know.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Right Then we have suppressed and repressed nervous system distress in the body.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, and so I it's.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: It takes a really bold parent to first educate themselves on what's really going on, because without that understanding, it's all you know, it's not authentic and it won't.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: It won't you won't have it to find.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's not capacity right, Information alone is not capacity in the nervous system.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: So we have to truly, truly see the behavior for what it is, which is an expression of hurt and it's not.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: You know, you can't take it personally, you can't, you can't get offended.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: You might, but it's, I do, you know.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: But where is that going to get you and then you will react with anger and frustration and you will just widen the gap.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: So it's, it's trust.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: It takes so much hard work to get there and and healing and understanding your wounds and your triggers and your pattern patterns and your condition beliefs, and that's why, um, it has to be done if you really want to show up, break the cycle.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, do you ever do any somatics with your son?
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Like we're big fans over here of like pillow throwing, like you know, like discharging stuff, like physically?
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, do you do that stuff with him?
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: The only thing I've done with him.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: We do breath work together, yeah, yeah, and I've taught him to take long, deep breaths, hold it a little long, exhale.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: I've told him he can punch pillows, but he hasn't gotten there yet.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he prefers me.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: No, but it's.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: It's the breath work does make a big difference and I'm so glad that you know, I've seen, I see him do it, doing it on his own sometimes, which is great, yeah.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: I love the idea of pillow punching or throwing together Right, because then you get to discharge from your nervous system while he does.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know what your take is on this, but my daughter's 10.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: And you know we've certainly been on this journey for years and years, but sharing with her, in an age appropriate level, my challenges to intercepting with her challenges like teaching her.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: I think I got down this, I got to this place with her where I thought well, if I just teach her all the tools, then she'll be resourced, and if I hold all the space, she'll be resourced.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Right, If I have all the capacity, she'll, and then she'll reach for the things when she needs them.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: But I think what I saw is that human nature still gets in there, right, we still want to default to.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: I want somebody to fix it for me.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: And so the older she gets, the more I've had to say to her okay, this is the moment where you have to choose to use the tool and I think there's a big difference between seven and 10, but seven is really when this top brain just starts to come online.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: From a brain development standpoint, yeah.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but also holding her accountable for using the tools when she would really rather just melt down and have me, you know, do it for her.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I've seen that Cause I think I told my own self that had I been given the tools as a child, you know my life would be different.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: You know both things, maybe like I needed the tools, but also like anywhere we can.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: You know Brene Brown talks about blame is another way we discharge pain Right that we as people we love.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, a lot of that going on in this house right now.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: In your house, in the world, yeah, yeah, that's the thing.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: All right, what is something a child might never say out loud?
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: You've already alluded to this right, but they might never say it or speak it out loud after their parents divorce.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: But they'll show us in a thousand other ways, and you've already said hurt, but tell us more about that right.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Like what will they not say out loud, but their behavior will show it?
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, so definitely number one is the hurt that it is hurt.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: It will come off as a lot of parents will see it as disrespect and rudeness and maliciousness and spoiled entitlement.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: And it's not that at all, you know.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: So that's number one.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: I also think in the divorce arena maybe they would be afraid to say that they think it's their fault.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: That would never come out of their mouth, probably, but they would definitely feel what's the word Responsibility.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, responsible, like I should have done something different.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or it's because of me this is happening because of me, or he's mad because of me, and maybe if I had done that, so that and then just you know, maybe that they're not sure who to trust or like when there's a loyalty issue.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Right, that's so big yeah.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Who to trust?
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Because I think each parent assumes that they are the one that knows better, right, and they're sending the same message to their kids Like no, I'm the one you should trust.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Oh bless so hard.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: And and one thing I've learned I'm because I'm learning this as I go with the divorce.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not an expert in divorce at all, that's not where my expertise lays, but I'm learning that it's still.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: It's still who we are and what we model and what we embody that translates most powerfully than our words ever could.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: That's right, how it feels, and I think one of the things that I will say to you it's the long game right now, right Is how it feels one year from now, three years from now, 10 years from now.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: And that consistency over time right.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: You have to trust that in the tight space it's so hard.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: It's so hard yeah.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: But we ideally want our kids to be able to trust both parents on some level right, absolutely.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: I mean they have to.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: That's their need, that's a core need.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: They cannot, they're not meant to choose or lose love for one or the other or be confused or mistrust.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: That's creating them to disconnect from themselves.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: So it's a serious issue that we have to navigate in this process to make sure at all costs that that inner conflict is not happening.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: But it does happen in so many homes so that one's a hard one because sometimes there's no control over the other.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: More often than not, there is no control yeah yeah, and then when we try to control, it is when we really get stuck ourselves yeah because then we don't feel safe yes, so a lot of this is, is is being you know, hyper aware, but letting go at the same time, if that you know what I mean, but letting go at the same time, if that you know what I mean.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: But aren't.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Aren't most of lives like in life?
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Most of the aligned paths are paradoxical.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because we can be so attuned and so concerned and so worried and do all the right things, but then it can backfire if we also don't surrender and have faith also in you know faith in what I'm providing is enough.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: My you know.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and I I've never read any of your content about this, so like, ooh, we're getting into a sassy little place here, but I believe that the kid chooses their parents, right, spiritually speaking.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: That like we all come into this life choosing our parents and choosing our timeline and choosing whatever right and we can't eclipse each person's own spiritual life journey.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like we don't get to be perfect enough, mothers, that we eclipse their need to have their own hero's journey.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: We don't we don't get to be that arrogant, you know.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: And.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: I read this research study once, where they do you remember the movie biodome with Pauly Shore?
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: That's like no, no, I never thought.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: But anyways, um, apologies if you loved that movie with Pauly Shore, uh, but they, they recreated a concept like that where they built a biodome and they tried to recreate nature within the biodome so that they could see, like, can we sustain all these species, all these you know natural earth cycles inside the biodome.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: And so they were able to like, have all these species really thrive, thrive in ways that often they do not in our natural environment, where we take advantage of the environment and all the things.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: But you know what happened is the trees ended up falling over.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Really.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Because they didn't develop the root structures that come from the wind.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow, wow.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: Isn't that something?
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Wow yeah.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: So we need the wind, our kiddos need the wind, right, our kiddos need the wind, and that doesn't mean that we want to subject them to more than they ideally.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: But sometimes we have to trust.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: Like in life, there's wind and we cannot stop the wind.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, not good for them.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow, I love that.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, and there's a lot of guilt guilt, I know, for many mothers who decide to to do what's best for them in terms of their marriage and perhaps giving it up, and I, I'm, I'm very protective, as we all are, and I think taking this step is kind of the biggest way that we can show our children that we also matter and our happiness matters, and we have boundaries.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: We have boundaries and ultimately, because I know so many of us carry guilt, for you know what we think we're inflicting on the child, which there is, we can't deny that they are going to be inflicted, right, but that their greatest interest and what we ultimately want to give them is much more.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: And you know there is a light at the end of the tunnel, so it's just always yes, yes, and so I just keep that also to.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: You know, there's, there's something bigger, better, and there's a reason for the wind right now.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, yeah.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: And we don't have to do it perfectly right, we just have to be accountable.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: And I think that's what you're telling us when you talk about presence yeah, being present Within presence.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: We can be accountable.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: When we set our egos aside, we can be accountable.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Right, we are present, we can be vulnerable and maintain connection and we can co-regulate and do all these beautiful things.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Right, it's, we can't block the wind, but we can be present and stay connected.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: And that is where safety truly, I think, comes from.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Right Is that sense of safe is connection, connection.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a hard place for a parent to get to.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: Naturally, I think that wake up call, that you know that rock bottom Sometimes I think that it only can really hit someone through severe grief or or like a big, huge transition or something hitting them so hard that you can't deny it or bypass it or avoid it or excuse for it.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, that your ego literally shatters and then you see the truth, Then you can awaken, Then you see.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: But it's very hard to just tell somebody that's asleep to wake up.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: So it's really really hard.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: But if, when a parent does start questioning everything their existence, their childhood, their everything that's the greatest, greatest.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Freedom from the matrix?
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I mean, that was certainly my journey, right?
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Is my ego shattered and there was no denying it, and it was massive grief and I had to reevaluate everything.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: But it's the biggest blessing in disguise.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, right, yes yeah.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, what is a seemingly small parenting moment that actually creates massive long-term healing for kids in any transition right, but especially divorce?
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: I think repair is probably number one and then also getting those feelings out, just making sure.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: You know, I have a ritual with my son before we sleep every night I say so tell me how you're feeling, how is your heart doing, do you, do you feel angry, do you feel upset?
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Like tell me, tell me, tell, I just need that release because I I don't want him to hold onto it and I want him to feel safe with everything, but also just repair, because there's.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: So when there is conflict and chaos and confusion, repair can completely change the story that our children hold right and it could end the story as well.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, right, and we don't.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, I remember all my stories that are still playing in my head from when I was six or seven.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: But if I had, if there was repair in my head from when I was six or seven, but if I had, if there was repair, they might not.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: I might not be thinking about them in my forties Right, so I love that your answer was repair.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: I think that's a magical.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: So often I tell clients great circle back.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: So often that's how I deal with when you know, I freaked out, you know, as I circle back and I say, you know, I've been thinking, you know, and this is what I could have done better.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry for that, or whatever.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: It is Right, but you know, what's interesting is I actually got into a fight with my husband a couple of weeks ago, because I don't know if you relate to this I bet you do but I have always been willing to set boundaries for her that maybe I wasn't willing to set for myself or I was willing to make cycles for her before for me.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Right, I'll just swallow it, I'll handle it, I'll boost myself.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Right, but I will advocate for her more fiercely.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Right, so there's a problem in there also, that's a different episode.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: That's a different episode.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: And so my daughter and my husband got into a fight the other day and it was sort of that typical thing that they fight about, right, or that he and I fight about.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: And I think we've come far enough in our healing journey to know that we are all often circling the same issues, right, but ideally from a higher perspective.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Higher perspective, right.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Our capacity is increasing.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: We're chipping away at it a little bit at a time.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: So I like held it together until he and I were alone, as so as to not to fight in front of her, right, and I was like I am so upset about X, y or Z, and he was like, okay, and so he's gotten really good at repair.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: He's like, okay, I'm going to handle this, I'm going to handle that, I'm going to go talk to her, I'm going to go whatever.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, but wait a minute, I actually don't want you to repair this time.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: And he was like what?
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: And I said, because how many times in the last year have you gone back to do repair on that thing?
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: But you haven't actually handled the ego thing that's coming up for you in that moment.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: And then do you run the risk of going and doing repair and her no longer receiving repair.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: You're not actually doing the behind the scenes.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, to increase your nervous system capacity.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: So it's like repair is such a beautiful answer, but also you better be doing the work behind the scenes.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, actually I don't.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: I'm using repair, I think more because there's a lot of chaos going on, you know, during a divorce and I think it's a great answer.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but, but I want, but I have to say that with my clients and in in my practice and in my every day, though I always tell parents I'm like, but we don't want to just know how to, you know, turn off the fire, like we need to stop igniting the fires in the first place, like we want to.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: We don't just want to know how to be amazing at repair, you want to prevent those situations from happening, right as well.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: So there doesn't need to be so much repair at the same time, right.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: So that's again selfness.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: What keeps repeating the patterns that the patterns are are telltale sign of what's really going on and what we have to.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: And I think that if you had been a fly on the wall, like, you would have said like, absolutely, his moment of ignition is very much tied to his childhood and what he didn't get Right, and then that's what she's able to ignite in him, and then, from a place of scarcity, you're like why didn't I get this thing, or why didn't I feel important, or whatever right?
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: That's always where we get ignited in parenthood is when we something we didn't get in childhood.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Is that what I'm saying?
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, always, yeah, yeah.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so interesting so interesting, I know.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, what is one piece of parenting advice you've actually completely changed your mind about over the years, so something you used to believe about parenting.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: You've changed your mind about it over the years, and why.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Well, my first two years, my son's first two years, I was a different parent.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: I was, like you know, the typical behaviorist you know, and it was all compliance.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: And that his behavior was a reflection of my parenting and that obedience meant I was a good parent and how much control over I had.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: Him meant my parenting.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: And I mean that's completely out the window now.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: Now that I know what's really going on, absolutely Now, I see behavior, as you know, a symptom of something much deeper.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: It's a sign, it's, it's usually a cry for help.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: There's that saying if we knew nine times out of 10, if we knew the problem, the issue behind a tantrum, it wouldn't make us angry, it would make us cry, and that's you know.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: So true, and I don't want to come off as like no, yes, there's still boundaries, there's still have limits, you can still have rules in your home, and I'm not saying you know, be permissive parent.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: But I am saying that children deserve our understanding and they deserve?
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: yes, and they deserve.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: We need to reassess our expectations of them and we and start having more clear understanding of where they are developmentally and what they are capable of capable of, because they are fighting because they cannot meet our expectations, right?
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: So that's, that's one exercise I always have parents do is like let's look at your expectations.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: And are they even?
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: is the brain realistic yeah.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, is the brain development even capable?
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Does this?
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: make sense and, and I said you know I there's, there's things that, yes, your non-negotiables around health and safety.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: Those are mine.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: And toxic things I'm, you know, I have my non-negotiables, but we have, you know, it's not, it's not a bad thing quote unquote to be more flexible.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: I think we need to be more flexible.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: I think we are too rigid with that whole idea of what you know our children, how they should be, and that's just creating a disconnect that won't.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Well, I think both ends of the spectrum are true.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: I think, conversely, there are also parents who have been so dysregulated or don't know how to set boundaries or don't have capacity in the other direction, and I've seen this trend, you know, where it's like I've raised my kids to be feral, kind of thing, where it's like the opposite end of the spectrum, where there's no wind around boundaries, right.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: And for any type of capacity for self-regulation.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: So I do think both ends of the spectrum are out there.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: And because, at the end of the day, children crave boundaries.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: They need them to feel safe, for safety.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Dr Vanessa LaPointe always says think of them like walking crossing over a little rickety bridge with no handrails, like the boundaries are the handrails and they expect them awesome right, and they expect them of us.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: But I just think, of course, yes, they need them and but we need to uphold them, not the child.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: That's up to us, we not.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: That's not their responsibility to turn off the TV at this certain time.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: We make sure it's done.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: Or we don't bring ice cream in the house if we're going to fight about it every day.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, I've seen more of the other side of too heavy handed, too perfectionist oriented, yeah, and just just lacking the emotional side of it, like of the why just, it's just too much, what not enough?
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Why Right, like they did this, but no question, why?
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Why do you think they would do that?
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Why do you think they would say I hate you?
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Well, but you know curiosity, you bring up an amazing point, because curiosity is one of the key indicators that we're grounded in a sense of capital, a self yes, when we can be curious, it means that we're integrated, we're not dissociated, we're present, we're grounded, we're give or take right.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: Well, and yeah, a lack of curiosity absolutely is a real yeah.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: Or as a parent, right, I am not grounded.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, and, and it's.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: It's more of a robotic thing where, as we must be curious, that's, that's really the answer.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: Why is it so difficult for them?
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: Or why am I getting so activated by this?
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: I want to ask you the biggest, hairiest question that was not in our interview prep pack, and then, if you hate the question, we can edit this out.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Where do you land on vaccines and how they affect children's overall nervous system capacity, behavior, emotional regulation, all the things?
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm not, I have to say, I'm not that educated too much, but I did get into it after COVID, of course, and started getting, and I, I'm just, I'm pretty holistic, I have to say, in terms we are super holistic over here, okay.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, like we I didn't get vaccinated for COVID and we don't do the flu vaccines and my son but my son was, you know did everything except when I started.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: When I woke up and realized then I stopped, actually like we were supposed to get the second one, I said no, it's okay.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: And you know, I, I now I'm just more, I'm not, I'm not.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: I was kind of a sheep before and just did everything.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: And you know, and now I'm the opposite.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: I'm like, no, I'm not, you know, I'm the only one that didn't do it and I'm, and I'm, thank God I did it Right.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: But but you know, in terms of behavior I could, I mean it's, it's, it's mind and body are so connected, so connected, you cannot associate them.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how can we, how can we say and I've heard too many scary stories that they don't make me feel comfortable at all, and I just think it's not misinformation, I think it's information, information and curiosity is key.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you for rolling with that question.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: I think I've woken up, you know, in air quotes, multiple times.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: In my life, and certainly post COVID, I had, like you know, another wake up right and which is really when I started practicing constitutional homeopathy, which is energy medicine to recover, right, and I, as I was practicing with my daughter, she had all these food allergies, ocd, anxiety, insomnia, all this stuff Right, as we started unwinding all of that, how much of it was actually tied?
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: Not all of it, not by any stretch stretch all of it, but certainly some of what ended up looking like behavior vaccine related, so interesting yeah.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, Vaccine-related Really.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: So it's super interesting yeah.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, I'm not surprised, but yeah, it's tough.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: I mean it's hard, but I also.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: It's so hard, I mean, when I refused the last one.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: It's so hard to go against.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: But then you worry, I'm like what if I'm putting my child's life in danger by oh girl?
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Constitutional homeopathy has all the answers.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Like can prophylax any of the diseases that are out there, like there is homeoprophylaxis for any and all of them.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: But yes, I think it is scary.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: We need to talk about that then.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, but any time you're going against what popular culture is saying it does, it feels scary Like why am I doing this differently?
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: I'm outside of what the tribe, yeah, and then we feel this mass rejection which are nervous Like that's yeah.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: But then just one thought of actually doing it, then I'm like no, absolutely not, you know what I mean.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: And I go back to like no, this this makes more sense, and I feel our bodies are designed.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, tell us a little bit about your journals, right, and your favorite one, and where they came from and how they came to be, and just give us the rundown there.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, bound bound was my first and it a parent-child connection journal for ages 6 to 12.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: And so it has a question every day for your child, something that opens them up, that, you know, kind of boosts emotional intelligence and trust between the parent and child and self-worth, and you know a lot of different topics and just open-ended questions.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: And then each week has parent reflections for the parent which are pretty profound into the parents, you know, growing and becoming more aware of the energy that they are bringing into the room with their child in the relationship.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: And then foundations is my most recent, and this is an eight week deep healing for parents Like this is.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: It's not it's for the faint of heart, no, because you know I go there, we go there and I go there hard and fast, but we answer all the questions and I we have to, as Dr Dan Siegel says, we have to connect the dots, we have to make sense of our childhoods and it's not a dwelling in your, in your childhood, it's, it's a, it's a healing guide for your parenting, just how you parent, but it touches, of course, on your childhood so that you can make sense of it.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: And just not at all for blame.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: This is not at all about blaming anyone.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: It's about connecting the dots and breaking the cycle, right, yes, and we know how to do it.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: I think that's so much of how I know.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: I fell into patterns in my first marriage, picking my first partner in my first marriage.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Fell into patterns in my first marriage, picking my first partner in my first marriage, all the things.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Because I didn't know any different.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: I did what I thought was, quote, unquote, normal, yes, yes, I thought I was making choices that were healthier because I hadn't connected the dots in my own body, I was still traumatized, I was still dissociated.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Right, I hadn't done that deep diving and so, yeah, it's not about.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the deep dive is literally your saving grace.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Unless you do this, that inner work and the connecting of the dots and looking at the truth without the blame, because actually it just brings you more compassion for your parents and their story and their grandparents and their story.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: It's not about blame, but it's the most transformational tool, like when I help parents with their kids' behavior.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: We go to the inner work because that's what creates the most change.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: It's not about tricks, it's not about techniques, it's not about no, because if they're not integrated or embodied right, Like you said at the very top of the episode, like it's not going to translate, it's not going to come across as connection, it's going to come across as chronic and controlling.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, and that's why I'm against quote unquote gentle parenting, because I think it's really an act Unless you've done the inner work.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: It's a performance.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: Sorry to go there at the end, but like it's true.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: It's like you're just trying to use a softer voice when you're raging inside and your child.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: That's just dissociation, yes, and and you cannot be gentle when you're full of unhealed wounds.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: It doesn't, it's not possible.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: It's unsustainable and the the number one line I've heard from hundreds of parents I've worked with is we tried gentle parenting and it didn't work because it wasn't authentic, there wasn't connection, yeah, which means there's a breach, there's a rupture, an attachment.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: There wasn't connection in the parent to themselves.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, and then how can there be sustained connection between the parent and the child?
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Yes, you can have maybe a little more connection, but not sustainably.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: So the number one most important job of any parent is to heal.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yes, I know it's like I would do anything for my child.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Well, would you?
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: So I love the reason.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: I think I just got so excited about Bound, even your first work, and not the second one.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: I think it's because when parents, especially women, are going through divorce and they're in the thick of it, right, it's like I don't have enough capacity to, I'm not fully recovered from all these things.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Right, I haven't completed my deep dive, I'm not grounded, and so bound is such a like.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: Here's the curious question for you it's already been for you it's like.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: I don't have the level of grounding that I'd like to have a year or two or five years from now.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Right and so bound is just sort of on a platter, like here it is.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Here's how to talk to your child.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Here's how to ask the questions.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Here's the conversations to have.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah Now, yeah, you don't know what to say, I think, as a marriage and family therapist with a divorce podcast, right, because so many people coming to marriage counseling, they waited too long, they didn't do the work, they didn't do the things you know, and so so many people mess up that moment of telling their kids how they're you know that they're getting a divorce or whatever.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Like I mess up, right, but it's just not well executed.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so it is what it is.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: Bygones.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: Let's move on Right, and I think it does such a beautiful job of creating that sort of structure.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Here's the roadmap for these conversations during this season of life, so I just thought it was particularly suited for women in this stage or this Thank you, yes, I could.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: It's helpful, right?
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: It's very kind of like takes the weight off and just gives you what you need to do.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: It's not already automatic, you know yeah.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of our talk with our children is small talk.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: How was your day?
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: That's small talk.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: They hate that question, yeah, and they never end Okay, good, you know.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: So I wanted to give questions that actually mean something and open them up and make them want to answer, and make them feel closer and make them feel trusted and make them feel empowered and important.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: What else would you add that maybe I didn't think to bring up or that you know is super relevant for these major life transitions, maybe especially divorce, and if there's nothing, if major life transitions, maybe especially divorce, and if there's nothing, if we covered it like great, I think we've done like we've covered some cool stuff today.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: Just that our own managing our own emotions is the focus.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: As much as things can get chaotic within our children, it's and we can in our children, it's and we can put it on them or just focus and dissect on what they're doing and how they're behaving, we don't have to deal with our own.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like you need to be dissecting yourself.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: That's who you should be dissecting, and you should just be focusing on your behavior the most and become, you know, become a witness to yourself.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, because regulating our emotions doesn't mean suppressing or bypassing or just containing emotion.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: Right, it's about witnessing and then getting curious.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: What is this that I'm feeling?
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Why am I feeling it?
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: What am I going to do with these feelings, right?
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: Am I going to push them down or am I going to find some healthy way to get them out?
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: And then make that such a habit, right yeah.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: And I think and learning to sit with them as well.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, like, do you have to call someone right away and talk to them about it, or can you just sit and sit in in it?
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: You don't feel it, and can you?
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: And then that will open your eyes to.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: Can you let your child do the same?
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: You know, when I see my son sad, who he has been sad lately, can I get comfortable with my discomfort of?
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: his discomfort, you know and and and allow it.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: And you know, that's the big thing too, is is just allowing those feelings.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: It's just I think I learned that truly for the first time ever when I was going through divorce, because I would phone a friend, right, if I was triggered or whatever, I would phone a friend, some person on my support system.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: And then those moments where nobody answered, it was like well, shit, now what?
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: And then, yeah, you got to find a way to deal with that and I really do think that that was integral to my transformation while I was getting divorced early on.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: I think so many people, when they see their kids, have painful emotion like A.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: It taps into our unprocessed, painful emotion.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: So we want to stop it like rest, yes, right away.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: But then there are so many of us that want to break the cycle that we've sort of erroneously fallen into this, like I have to solve that for them so that they don't feel pain rather than like no, actually I have to teach them how to deal with the wind, right?
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: And.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: I think we have traded resilience for like pacification, right.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: Like I want to take them somewhere, I want to distract them, I want to entertain them, I want to buy them something, because if they're happy, I'm happy, and that is the definition of codependency.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah and yeah.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: And you know tears are healing, so healthy they detox the liver.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: Know tears are healing, so healthy they detox the liver.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: And we've been told to literally say stop crying and stop their healing.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: You know they are releasing the cortisol and the stress and and and let them.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Let them, let them feel sad.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: You know it's causing, you know it's causing disease if we don't let it out.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Right, that's right.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: It's healthy first for them to feel it.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: It's a part of life.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: But also we feel so much guilt and responsibility, as parents and mothers especially.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: But we like that's the surrendering part where we have to say you know, yes, they chose us, this is a part of their story, this is I can't take their pain away, that's not my job.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: It's just, it's me, it's my job to support them through it and stay here and hold them through it, but not take it away, you know, and that's the best gift you can give them actually.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Love it Dream.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: I am literally a fangirl.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: I just admire your courage.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: You say the hard things, you do the hard things right, like being at the party or the cookout or whatever, and doing it differently, I know, you know, let's say like when we started doing homeopathy and nobody else around was doing it, and it's like what is happening started doing homeopathy and nobody else around was doing it, and it's like what is happening, you know, like to do it very differently than what your community is doing takes an abundance of courage and I'm proud of you and I'm grateful for you.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: There are plenty of times.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: I repost your stories because they're things that people need to hear, and we'll definitely put your Instagram handle in the show notes along with your two journals.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: We can have you back one day.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, of course I would love to.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: You're so sweet.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: All right, you can check out Reem in the show notes and if there's something you would especially like to hear her talk about, send me a DM and we will have her back and we will ask her.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: Whatever it is, you're in the trenches, parenting through divorce.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: Curiosities are Dear.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: Divorce Diary is a podcast by my coach, john.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: You can find more at mycoachjohncom.