Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / 178: Sonya Palmer | How Your Law Firm Can Rank Higher on Google
Transcript
- SonyaPalmerAud === Davina: [00:00:00] Hi everyone and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. I am so glad you're here and I am really glad that Sonya Palmer is here for those of you who love the law, her podcast like I do, that you are familiar with Sonya and what a tremendous interviewer she is. She had me as a guest on the show and I had questions for her and wanted her to, to get her on the show. Davina: She is the VP of operations for rankings.io, and that is a company that helps personal injury law firms and other elite law firms get that precious Google ranking that we're always looking for that search engine optimization. And so these are real pros in, in SEO search engine optimization, and I'm happy to have Sonya here to talk about it. Davina: So welcome Sonya. Good to see you again. Hi. Sonya: Yes, yes. Thank you so much for having me. Davina: We have so many questions about everything, the law, her podcast at hand, rankings [00:01:00] dot iOS at at seo. So we're gonna jump in, but before we do, give me a little bit of, uh, give me the elevator pitch for rankings, do io and what, how you guys serve your clients and tell me about the company. Sonya: For sure. So rankings.io. We do SEO for personal injury lawyers. We specialize in PI and we provide SEO services. And we're very good at, when I say SEO, that typically looks like content link building, local SEO. We're trying to generate leads and cases for these firms using Google search engines. Davina: Wonderful, wonderful. Sonya: We've done SEO for years. We've just started doing design, web design and um, looking to offer maybe some more services to lawyers in this upcoming year, Davina: you actually have a degree in web design, or you taught web design at a college, right? What's your degree [00:02:00] in? Sonya: Correct. My degree is in instructional design, so like educational design, but I, I have an associate's degree in web design and yes, I did teach it for a few years. Davina: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I've done web design and I much prefer to outsource it to others now because it's. Uh, it, although you can do it now without, without knowing code, it's still mm-hmm. It's amazing to me how many people don't understand the design part of web design and, um, it, it's really important how, not only how things perform and how they look as well. Davina: So it's interesting you guys are adding that then to your sort of stable of services. Sonya: For sure. It, the line was getting very blurry because. The user experience is extremely important to SEO. Google pays attention to where those clicks happen. So if your site is not designed well, and it's not friendly to users, not only are you not gonna get leads in cases, people aren't gonna click, they're not gonna contact you, but Google's largely gonna ignore, ignore you [00:03:00] as well. Sonya: And then the speed. Last summer, Google actually introduced an algorithm update. That was just for speed. So if your site didn't load correctly, particularly on a phone, uh, again, you were, Google was kind of gonna not reward you if your site wasn't fast enough and it couldn't perform well for a user. So yeah, we entered design largely because it's extremely important to SEO now. Davina: Oh, interesting. Interesting. Alright, so before we get too deep into SEO, 'cause I do have more questions about that. Um. Tell me about your journey to working with rankings.io and becoming their VP of operations. Where, where were you before? What were you doing before? What was your, your vision for your career when you were younger? Sonya: Yeah. I, I don't know that I had one. Uh, it was an evolution. I think I was ruling out as much as I was ruling in. I was always very good with technology. I was the kid that [00:04:00] was fixing your VCR and had a talk boy in your face. And so a a I studied then design. I didn't really wanna do it, that, that didn't really feel like my vibe. Sonya: But you know, as computers and the internet became part of our daily lives, I got really good at building it, fixing it, troubleshooting it, so it made sense to study it. And, um, that's what I did. I did web design, I did instructional design. But while I was studying, I actually had to take a photography course, and it was one of the old film photography. Sonya: Um, and I really liked it. I was really good at it. I got a lot of really good feedback from my family, my friends, peers, professors, and they're like, you need you, you need to do this. You need to, you need to charge for this. You need to do this as a career. So I did. I opened a, I opened a photography business. Sonya: Oh wow. Um, I did weddings, I did baby portrait, you know, for years, senior, anything I could owned, owned a business, you know? So I was [00:05:00] responsible for finding new clients, finding new customers, and that's how I sort of taught myself digital marketing. I did my own no-go, built my own website. I put myself on the Facebook, you know, anything I could, and. Sonya: Trying to do that. That's how I learned about SEO. And I optimized my site, little small town in Ohio, and I was ranking number one in major metros like Columbus, Toledo, Cleveland, which was easier to do back then, but um, still difficult. And then people started coming to me instead of photography. They're like, who did your logo? Sonya: Who did your website? How not with the Google. I'm like, well, let me show you. And, um, started working with small businesses. I got a lot of Main Street businesses online, got their first websites, um, got them on social media and was really, really good at it. And I hated freelance. Um, I [00:06:00] felt it was probably just me, but I I You work really hard for a little bit of money. Sonya: Uh, yeah. And then started working with agencies. So still projects, still contract work, decided I, um, would like to have health insurance. So I got my portfolio together, I got my resume together and rankings was the first job that I applied for and I applied. They Davina: snapped you up? Sonya: They interviewed and was hired within 48 hours, so Awesome, awesome. Sonya: Yeah, I started as a SEO specialist, so I was doing the work immediately. Fell in love with legal. I really love. I respect lawyers and attorneys a lot, particularly firm owners, um, after having a business, after having done it on my own, my dad owned his own small business. I really, really respect what they're doing, and I just, I love the drive, I love the [00:07:00] commitment, the dedication, um, and the service that they provide for their community. Sonya: I think it's really, really special. So I immediately, and it's very, very competitive, so. I started as a specialist. Um, I saw ways to improve the way things were being done, um, in our products, in our services. So they just kind of kept giving me more to do and then more to manage. And here you go. Here you go. Sonya: Here you go. And I now have, um, a team of almost 20, I think. Wow. Yeah. I, yeah, we, uh, Davina: yeah, Sonya: we, Davina: that's wonderful. So how long, how long have you been with rankings? Sonya: Uh, six and a half years. Davina: Six and a half years. So that's pretty quick to advance from SEO specialist to VP of Operations. Sonya: Yeah, Davina: I imagine that learning to be a manager was probably had a steep learning curve because when you come from the do it yourself, bootstrapper, freelance world, which [00:08:00] is a lot, a lot of solo firms do that. Davina: One of the challenges that anyone in a small business that starts out bootstrapping and grows. Is realizing that we have to manage maybe when we don't have any experience or training in management. What do you think the biggest challenges for you have been in that? Sonya: Y yeah. You are absolutely correct. I had great leadership. Sonya: Um, our CEO, our president, um, they really understand it. They were, they were fantastic role models. They set great examples. You hear, you hear a lot about delegation and for good reason, right? But I think that sometimes. People see delegation as a task. I'm gonna delegate this task when really it's more about I'm gonna delegate this responsibility. Sonya: And then even beyond that I'm gonna delegate control. And that's really, really, yeah. Control. Yeah. I can give you, I can give you a list of tasks to do. [00:09:00] Right. And that might help me a little bit. That might grow you a little bit. Not to the point that we're gonna need to, to really both kind of propel forward. Sonya: And if you can get comfortable with a team, build a really good team, get the right people a good vision, like our, our visionary, we know exactly where we're going, right? Communicate that. Then I try, this is still something that I am shedding, you know? Yeah. I try, here's what I, here's what we want in the end, here's the end result. Sonya: You figure it out. Um, and that has, that has definitely been, I was very bad at it in the beginning. I think I've gotten better, but I definitely still have room to just let my team figure it out and delegate. Not a task, but the control. Davina: Yeah. I, that is so, that's such a profound observation and so true. And I think that's where most women law firm owners and.[00:10:00] Davina: You know, coaches, creatives, whoever is trying to grow a business, it's where we struggle is especially high achieving women are used to doing everything themselves. Yes. It's what gets us through our education. It's what gets us through starting the firm to begin with. And then there comes this point where we're at our limit. Davina: Capacity wise, the only way to grow our capacity to serve more people, to make more money, to achieve bigger goals is to. Bring in a team and start hiring people. And I think it is one of the biggest challenges facing women law firm owners who wanna scale their business is management. And so I think you make such a wonderful point about it is not just the task that you're talking about, the hardest thing to do. Davina: 'cause we can give task and then we're wondering why we're still. So inundated and it's, it's because we haven't given authority with the task. We haven't said you have authority and that, and accountability. So there's it's couple, there's two pieces [00:11:00] to it. You can have, you have accountability for it and you also have authority. Davina: And I think authority is where a lot of us really get hung up. Like we want people to be accountable, but then we don't give them authority to make decisions. Mm-hmm. And you know that that's a huge stumbling block for a lot of people in management. So that's a wonderful. Observation. I'm glad you shared that. Davina: 'cause I think a lot of people would benefit just from that whole nugget. Sonya: I, yes, completely. And I see it specifically with female law firm owners where they can't even imagine growth or imagine scale. Because they're so in the weeds and if they can do this now they can kind of rise up and, and now they can get into that mindset, okay, here's how I'm gonna grow, here's how I'm gonna be this many million dollar firm. Sonya: So it it is, it's the starting point. So, and I, I did, I, I saw it, it was given to me. The autonomy was given to me. [00:12:00] So it was then easier to hand off. So, Davina: yes. Yeah. Yeah. So you, you learned by example, you were given autonomy and you were given authority, and you were given, given accountability for results. Sonya: Yes. Davina: And then, and then you were better able to, to pass that along to others. Mm-hmm. Uh, it is, and I think it's the control piece. It's, it's the part that. The fear around, well, I know my strengths and weaknesses, but I don't know, and if this person doesn't deliver, it's on me. And I think you made a wonderful point when you said people, they're so in the weeds that they can't even imagine what it's like and what it takes to get out of the weeds is really stepping into outside the comfort zone, really. Sonya: Mm-hmm. Davina: Right to to get to that. Yeah. Sonya: I interviewed Jen Gore. Who is a personal injury lawyer out of Atlanta and her team, they did a test run of her like completely absent for a week. Do not [00:13:00] contact me for seven days and then we're gonna come back and see how that went. And I loved that attitude. Uh, yeah. Sonya: Okay. You figure it out and then we'll revisit and then, you know, I can come back in and maybe like, I didn't like the way that this went. I think that is, especially for, for women who are growing firms, that's a great place to start. Don't wait for the emergency where you are gone for six weeks or you wanna go on vacation for weeks, practice with your team, go AWOL for a week and see how they do. Davina: Yeah. Practice might that. Sonya: Mm-hmm. Davina: Yeah. I love that because that, that is something that usually it ha gets down to crisis is it forces, it forces law firm owners to, of so, or small firms to, to. Change overnight. I've seen that happen, yes. With, with certain clients of mine. Either they'll get hit with, usually it's illness, there's some illness that is a very serious illness that they, the [00:14:00] doctor just says, that's it, you, you can't continue with this level of stress. Davina: You can't continue and we have to, or we have to go through treatments or whatever. And it's amazing what people will do to cover things, to cover their business. Yes. When they are placed under that kind of pressure, it, and they do it, they manage to figure it out. And yet, um, there will be people who will go months and months and months and never figure it out. Davina: And what I always say to them, the reason why is because your comfort zone, the enemy of great is not good. It's your comfort zone. It's, it's, you're too comfortable with where you are and it's gonna take, and if, you know, if you don't make changes, life's gonna happen. And suddenly you're gonna be forced to, and then you're gonna see what you're really made of. Davina: Right. So, definitely, definitely. Well, I wanna talk about the, we're gonna shift gears a little bit, talk about the law, her podcast, because when did you decide, I noticed that you have a pretty male heavy. [00:15:00] Leadership. Right. You're, you're it, you're the girl, right? So what made you decide that you needed to do a pod, a podcast, and especially a podcast for women lawyers? Sonya: There's two of us now. Davina: There are two. Yay. Sonya: So we have two women now. Yes. Uh, and it wasn't my idea, it was our CEO's, um, Chris's idea to do this. And it was largely, he hosts pi. Which is the Personal Injury Marketing Mastermind and had done it for a little over a year, had been very successful. And in being sort of like in the podcast network, the podcast world, we realized that this, that women were, we needed to shine a light on them that they were not. Sonya: In the spotlight, in the focus, in the same way that their male counterparts were. And they exist. They're out there, right? But they just weren't getting the opportunities. And we have them on pim. But we really felt like [00:16:00] just dedicating, uh, a space to highlighting these women's stories was very needed. And, uh, it was new for me. Sonya: Um, I had never hosted anything before. Um, I, I consider myself an outgoing introvert, so I was just naturally, Hey Sonya, Davina: you wanna host a podcast? Sonya: Like, Davina: okay, yeah, I can try that. Sonya: And then they told me the name, which was LA her, and I was like, okay. All right. I'm, I'm in. I'm all in. And, uh, it has just been, we have just gotten incredible feedback. Sonya: Um, every single guest we've reached out to has been like, hell yeah, I wanna be on this podcast. Even though we were new, even though, you know, we didn't have, um, a huge presence yet. Um, it was just very, very, very well received and well needed. And we've created already just this little network of very powerful women. Sonya: And the more that I have interviewed so many [00:17:00] incredible women. Over the last year, there's little pockets of us everywhere. Right, right, right. And two, yeah. There are so many other leaders, people in this community that have carved out a section and I just, I, I feel all that tightening up, you know, and just becoming a much larger network that's not even female centric necessarily, but, um, just people, lawyers. Sonya: So, you Davina: know, it's, it's, it's interesting coming from that, his observation and coming from that place because it's one of the things that led me to start the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast is that I find so, I have so many colleagues that I know from my marketing days, and I've known through years ago my podcast, I mean my law firm, and I just found that there were a lot of men, particularly white men mm-hmm. Davina: Who would start podcasts. Or do you know, not start networking groups. And [00:18:00] I would go through and see who they've in interviewed and I would see a lot of, first, a lot of white faces. All almost all white faces, and then a lot of men. And there'd be very few women. And I would think to myself, well, there's gotta be a woman out there who does the same thing this man does. Davina: But there's not the thinking of, let me go find that woman. Right. Putting the effort into it, it was like, let me talk to my buddy who does this right. Yes. And so this, that was what, you know, you probably have the same thing when you started looking out there and actually started looking at these legal podcasts and seeing that they're great, but where are the women's voices? Davina: And I think that women face still face, first of all, we have a unique perspective, right? Just Sonya: a hundred percent Davina: from our, our position in the world. And then also I think we have. Really interesting stories. I'm always amazed. I'm sure you have this experience when you're. At like when you're [00:19:00] talking to somebody and then, then they go, so, oh yeah. Davina: I also do swing dancing and collect whiskey. Like, you know, you, you get these really interesting women. Oh yes. I've written two novels as well, and so it's so fun to talk to women lawyers because you find out there's all these really interesting other things other than so interesting being lawyers or being moms that they do, right? Davina: Yeah. Sonya: Yes, yes. I was very. Surprise. When we sort of had the idea, which it's an interview style podcast for female lawyers. I was like, how? How can this be different? And I've not had a single one that was even similar. Truthfully, they have all had such a unique story and a unique perspective and outlook over and over and over again. Sonya: It's completely different. I love about Davina: it. 'cause you think you're gonna be interviewing them and everything after a while is gonna be the same like. How did you grow your business? What did you, how many people did you hire? How did that work? It's never like that. There's always never something that is special that comes out from, from the person that you're interviewing and being able [00:20:00] to share their story. Davina: And I think it's so inspirational. I know I get inspired interviewing people and also listening to other podcasts with women lawyers because I go, wow. You could do this, you could do that. She did this. This is amazing. Right? And you just feel so inspired by the things that other people are doing and, and it expands your vision of what you can do with your life. Davina: It doesn't have to be this traditional way of being a lawyer, showing up and in the Navy suit and you know, whatever the vision of a traditional law firm is, we're seeing women who are doing all kinds of different things in the law. And I find that inspiring. Sonya: Absolutely. I've also been really surprised, the wrong word, but just impressed at the different places the female lawyers are at. Sonya: You have women who are at the top of their game, they own firms. They are killing it, [00:21:00] and they have this incredible story and how they got there. And then I've talked with these women who were kind of in the middle. They've left the firm that they were working at, they've started on their own. You know, they have a lot of room to wiggle. Sonya: And then you get the, they've just graduated. They've just passed the bar. This is their first job. They're dreaming big. And I've loved how different those, and each perspective is different and unique and you can learn from some, learn something from all of them. Right. And that was another thing that surprised me. Sonya: Um, just how different people in different places in their journey. Um, Davina: yeah. Yeah. I also find that we learn about different challenges. If you can get people to share some of the challenges that they face, there are different. There, there are some challenges that men have as well, but there are a lot of challenges that women face that men don't face. Davina: And, and, and people of color face that. White people, Caucasian people don't face [00:22:00] and don't even realize until you start having conversations and asking questions and asking people to share their stories. And then you're like, oh, wow, I, that never occurred to me or I never knew this. And, and I think for our male, you know, I think we have probably have a lot of men who listen to our audience. Davina: Even though this is geared to women, I suspect there are a lot of men who like to listen because they wanna hear, they want tips and tricks on how to grow their law firm and. Hear those insights as well. And so I think it's a wonderful thing to have more of these types of podcasts because you're really educating, you're educating by just like, by letting people share their stories. Davina: You know, what a difference this makes. I Sonya: Yes. I, I completely agree and I, I think even with the statistics that are not promising, right? Uh, that, you know, there are more women in law school than men, but still only 22% are partners and it's, it's way less than that, that even own their own firms. And that's getting better. Sonya: That's changing. But I [00:23:00] think despite those statistics, even though I, they're not what they should be, there is kind of like what we talked about really. It's that growth mindset, you know? Right. It's not, I can own my own firm. Right. Um, I can grow this business. I can have employees, I can have 50 employees. Sonya: I can be the dominant law firm in my city. You know, so it's to take it that step further, dream bigger, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And that's where those, those opportunities present themselves. You see straight white men on podcasts because they're the ones that are thinking, I got a podcast because that's gonna give me exposure and that's gonna bring me business. Sonya: I want the. People of color and the women to, to have that mindset. Um, Davina: correct. Sonya: Yeah. Just having your firm, yes, good, but think bigger. You could have the biggest firm in your metro, you know? Davina: Right, right. You have. Somebody out there like Grant Cardone, who's saying the 10 x [00:24:00] factor, like, like picture, I want a million dollar firm. Davina: Well, instead of saying that, I want a $10 million firm. Right? Yes. I do find that in coaching and working with women, it is one of the challenges that I'm always Sonya: Yes. Davina: Um, I recently had a client who, um, who's was doing on track to, to she'd grown her firm. She'd made some changes. It was really a challenge for her. Davina: Then her husband also an attorney, hid it big with a case. Mm-hmm. And made all this money and she dialed back immediately and I was like, no, don't do. But it's not my, it's not my life, you know, it's not my dream. So people get to choose what it is that they want ultimately. But for me, like being on the mission that I'm on, to get women law firm owners, to get women lawyers too. Davina: Expect more for themselves To ask for more for themselves. Sonya: Yes. Yes. Davina: And not ride side saddle, you know, and I think that I, I mean, [00:25:00] there's a whole generation of young women who are coming up that don't, you know, just think completely differently from the, my generation Yes. How we were brought up and certainly here in the deep south where I live. Davina: So, um, it's really encouraging, exciting for me, very to hear their stories as well as the stories. Of the women who, like me, were showing up in places at a time when there weren't a lot of other women to model for you, and so you had to go in and you had to play the game to get anywhere that you wanted. Davina: So I love hearing those stories because I think that lets us know on whose shoulders we stand. Right. Yes. And then I love hearing the new energy where people are coming in and they're going, yeah, but why do I have to settle for that? Why do I need to Sonya: mm-hmm. Davina: Do it your do it this way or that way to get what I want. Davina: So it's, it's very exciting journey. We're not there yet, but it's, there's a lot of movement happening and a lot of changing happening. Changes happening. Sonya: Yeah. Yes, I completely agree. I [00:26:00] think that is one of the benefits of, um, digital social media, Davina: right. Sonya: Virtual because the pioneers, people like you who set off kind of on their own to carve a path. Sonya: You are able to directly see the impact of that on the younger generation. And that's not always been the case. You didn't see it until long after it had happened. And we're getting to see sort of the fruits of the labor when it was really hard in this younger generation and our current, our current generations. Sonya: It's having that effect, but how, like, how rewarding and how amazing to know that they will not have the same struggles, so I love it. Davina: Right, right, right. And, and. Can't even imagine, can't even imagine the circumstances of that struggle. That's the part where, you know, that you, that things have really shifted. Davina: Right? And some of that I, I, I mean, I do think the internet, like, so I remember, so I was working at an agency [00:27:00] when law firms were asking, do I need a website? What's a website? Do I really need that? And that was what our agency was doing, was building websites for mm-hmm. Law firms and other professional businesses that we, and they were like, okay, so this is like a flashy brochure that we have online, that we have to have online. Davina: And they didn't think about people searching it, trying to, and then they didn't realize that one day we replace the phone book, you know? Oh, Sonya: yeah. Davina: And so, and then when social media came along, boy that just blew everything up. And there's a lot of downsides to social media that there's a lot of danger the way some of these mm-hmm. Davina: You know, companies are run for sure. Yes. But there's also, it you, I thought the internet and websites level, the playing field, because you could have a small firm compete with a larger firm because you wouldn't be able to tell, you have this gorgeous website and, but now it's even. It's even bigger shift because now you have lawyers that there's not even an office to go to and they're running big firms with remote [00:28:00] employees everywhere and, and able to grow faster because they don't have the overhead and expense of an office, even though there's some who still like that. Davina: You know, I, so it's really been amazing to see the transition happen. Um. I think the law is one of those areas that is typically, it's like a big, it's like a big ship that's really hard to turn and we still have these, you know, monolithic law firms, you know, that are, that people know. But I think you're seeing a lot more people wanting, we think that technology is going to take away the personal service and actually technology is helping us get more personal than ever. Davina: And I think, I think that is gonna be really interesting 10 years from now where we are. Yes. And we're talking about SEO. I wanna, before we run out of time, I wanna talk about SEO particularly because, Sonya: yes. Davina: Not only because it's the service [00:29:00] you guys offer, but because I think a lot of people think, uh, first of all, a lot of people, a lot of attorneys think, I don't wanna think about SEO because it's too much. Davina: I know from a web design standpoint when we're talking about doing SEO for our website, all the different things that must be done and it's ongoing. And so also I think people think there's a lot of expense associated with it, and then they think, well, I can get the plugin and do it myself, and then of course they don't do it themselves because who's got the time for that? Davina: So first of all, tell us. What it means when you say search engine optimization. What's the goal? What's the end outcome we're trying to get? And then let's talk about how to get there. Sonya: Number one on Google. Davina: Number one, that's our goal number. You think? Think that's possible for lawyers, for small firms, because I think number one on Google is Justia. Davina: It's LegalZoom. LegalZoom's, the largest spender, and [00:30:00] the ones who set the, you know, the, the marker for everybody else. And it's, uh, fine law. They're on the front page. And then usually you have your big firms like the John Morgans of the world who are on the Sonya: mm-hmm. Davina: Front page. Sonya: Mm-hmm. Davina: And so is it even possible for other firms to get on the first page of Google? Sonya: Absolutely. A few things. Google, Google's smart. Google's smart if you are. SEO is a production game and therefore the production of it, there is an expense to it. Okay? That number one spot on Google has a dollar amount assigned to it, right? Somebody is paying, you gotta find out what that is and then beat them. Sonya: But there are a lot of things that come into play. So you mentioned Justia and Finelaw, some of these other directory like. Sites that aren't, they're not a true [00:31:00] representation of what the user's really looking for. And a, a year ago, even dominated search results. But Google's gotten Google. Google knows when you type that in. Sonya: That's not exactly Googles everything, what the users' looking for, you know? And I think that is what separates SEO still from any other digital marketing, from social media, even PPC to a certain extent, but it's more expensive. Um, email newsletters. The grassroots is the direct intent, right? There isn't really a whole lot of other platforms. Sonya: I have just been injured in a car accident. I have just been arrested. Um, I'm going to search car accident lawyer. This person is ready to retain a lawyer. Social media can't replicate that. It's a great brand awareness and a trust factor. But that intent, that very important intent alone speaks with Google, right? Sonya: So it is, it is expensive. SEO is expensive, but [00:32:00] there are things that you can do to get yourself ready for when you can make that investment when you're ready to grow. Um, so, or on first page of Google, now you have, um, local service ads, which are at the very top. This is a paid. Local on verification that Google offers, it's, number one, costs money per click. Sonya: Uh, number two is typically paid ads, right? Uh, legal personal injury in general is one of, if not the most competitive spaces for pay per click. Those clicks are extremely expensive intent there, uh, you're probably gonna get a case that's gonna cost you. The third one is Google Business Profile, which is free. Sonya: This is a free service that Google offers to local businesses. And that's kind of where I would encourage those smaller firms that may not have a huge budget to start. So you can rank there, especially [00:33:00] proximity, which is a huge, if you have an office in a major metro that has just given you a huge leg up. Sonya: Uh, 'cause Google bases it on proximity. The next thing that Google is looking at is reviews. So. I don't know that Google measures a review, but it measures a click and users, myself included, when I'm looking to buy a service, I check the reviews and whoever has the most with, uh, a realistic rating, you know, five's unrealistic, probably that's who I'm clicking on, and Google pays very close attention to those clicks. Sonya: That's a vote of confidence. So someone who doesn't have a giant budget for SEO can get a Google business profile. They can set it up and they can start a review process in their firm. Um, it, it is so important even today, like you don't have a budget for digital marketing. Create that process. Train your entire team.[00:34:00] Sonya: And you look for those opportunities. You have had a good interaction with a client. They're saying, oh, I'm so grateful for you. I'm so happy I called you. Awesome. Please leave us a review. And then you're gonna follow up with them with an email you're going to call them and make sure that they follow up. Sonya: That is one thing that a small business, no matter how, how small one person, that's something that you can do to set yourself up so that when you do have the budget. You have the intake system 'cause that is also key and you're ready to grow. You are set up for success. Um, and then content. The bulk of what SEO is is good content. Sonya: So if you can't pay, if you don't have the budget yet for that massive production or the super, um, you know, the amount of content that the big firms churn out, focus on good quality writers content that. If you don't want a legal library, that's not what users are looking for. They want information on how [00:35:00] much a settlement's going to be or what to expect when they get to the courthouse. Sonya: You can get really, really good content, um, that you update that will naturally attract back links. And then again, when you're ready to invest, you're ready to use a company like rankings. You're already set up for success and we're just gonna take that and amplify it. Davina: Yeah. Sonya: So it is, it is possible. Um. Sonya: Yeah, it's definitely possible. Davina: So I think you're gonna have people listening and going, okay, well if rankings doesn't do all that, what does rankings do? I don't understand. So can you go a little further into like how you ignite this little spark that we've already created? What kinds of things do you do? Davina: Why? Why would we want to hire an SEO services company? Sonya: Sure. So the one thing, several things, they all sing, they all are married to each other. Um, the website [00:36:00] matters. You talked about, you know, you can build a website without knowing code. You can, it's probably going to be slow. It might look pretty right, but it's not gonna perform the way that a custom built site. Sonya: That's what rankings does. We have a custom legal WordPress theme that we apply to all of our sites. It's the fastest thing I have ever seen. Wow. And that's saying something. So you're paying for a website that Google is going to love. And like I said, you can. You can get a theme, you can do a Wix site and all of those different things. Sonya: Google's going to love them less because they're not fast enough, they just aren't. So that's the one thing that we do. So it's, it's a site out of the gate. It's, we have years of experience working with PI lawyers, so we know exactly how to design them to capture Google, but then also convert the user. So it's twofold there. Sonya: We also do us [00:37:00] huge content development. We are looking for what content are you missing, what content does your competitor have? What content could be better? What content needs deleted? What content just needs optimized? Um, our, our engine is really content. Um, again, this is something we have done over and over and over again where we have been able to rank people in their metros for the most competitive terms, sort of with our, our method. Sonya: I also do local SEO, getting that set up, optimized correctly, and then we build links which. Yeah, Google tells you exactly what you need to do, right? Right. SEO Google gives you a whole list of stuff. Check, check, check, check, check. But the real sort of beauty in SEO is knowing when to disobey Google. And, um, building links is some, is a very specific strategy. Sonya: Um, you wanna work with Google and then sometimes work [00:38:00] against it to kind of generate the results. Davina: Yeah. Interesting. I think we need to, Sonya: to address, it's ongoing. You have to update it constantly. You have to touch stuff. Davina: We have to publish. I think we need to, exactly. I mean, I think that's something it's, it is something that's ever evolving. Sonya: Yes. Davina: I think we need to talk about keywords and keyword research. 'cause I know we can't have a conversation about SEO or Google without talking about keywords and I, and that is something that I think a lot of people find confusing. Remember those days when people were wai creating websites and they were keyword stuffing. Davina: So they were just, they had these, oh yeah, these are my keywords I wanna be searched for. And so all my, all their content was just the most awkward, awful content because it was stuffed with these keywords that they were hoping people would search. Obviously Google got wise to that. Um, so talk to us about kind of the, that process and why it's Sonya: important. Davina: Sure. Sonya: And this is another one. Google changes its mind. All the time. What worked six [00:39:00] months ago is not gonna work today. What worked five years ago is definitely not working today. And you, we saw that, uh, I still run into sites where you have, you know, people in law firms who are in marketing that created a page for every keyword that wanted to rank for, so they would have. Sonya: Detroit Car accident lawyer page, Detroit auto accident lawyer page, Detroit car crash page. And that, that works. Oh wow. Oh, oh yeah. Pages, thousands of pages with the same keywords. Very little useful content. And while that may have worked, then that is gonna work very much against you today. You want one page that's gonna attract that. Sonya: And for a long time we were seeing that, um, the word count is really what mattered. Um, we found that, you know, 1800 words, keyword density, you know, you want a, a good ratio to not overdo it. 1800 words seemed to be the sweet spot, and that worked for a long time. And then if the longer your content, the higher you ranked, well, that was [00:40:00] easy to replicate. Sonya: That was easy to do. Google's kind of nixed that with their most recent update. Now it's really about boiling the information down so that it is an exact match to that user intent. And it's actually less content, but less words, but better, higher quality. That's kind Davina: of what people was asking for now. Davina: Yeah, I always wondered about that because I always, from a, the way users use con access content now, and also designers, I mean, it's a knife in the heart of every designer when they're trying to design this beautiful page with lots of white space. It's gonna be appealing to human eyes and human beings, and they're like, oh, but you have to have. Davina: 2000 words on this page and designers are going, oh my God, no. And so that's a good change. Oh yeah, it's a good change because a lot of things, when people are writing 2000 words, it'd be more powerful. It would condensed into, you know, 500 words. Right? It would get more to the point and get what as [00:41:00] opposed to that kind of thing. Davina: Yes. But I think Google's reasoning at the time was, you're a more credible authority. If you can write that much. You're not some. That somebody's hired to write some quippy thing. Mm-hmm. There's something, there's something substantial here, right? Sonya: Mm-hmm. Davina: But that's changed Sonya: this. Oh, that's, and that's where the expertise comes in. Sonya: We are the ones that are paying attention to this. And the truth of the matter is sometimes you can get 2,500 to 3000 words to rank. Sometimes Google does still want that. Then other times they reject it. No, we want, we want 900 words. That's super dialed in. So that's sort of that line to know when to disobey Google and then when to do exactly what Google is asking. Sonya: 'cause if you do exactly what they're asking, you're probably, you'll do well, but you're, you're not, you're not gonna hit number one. You have to know where to tweak it. Davina: Wow, that's so interesting. Sonya: It's very fun Davina: and yeah. Yeah, so it sounds like quite the game. And what's interesting to me is [00:42:00] personify Google too. Davina: Pretty Google. Like this is per, but Google is really a collection of people whose whole jobs are just a mess with the minds of other people. Oh Sonya: yeah. Davina: Much like Facebook. Same, Sonya: yes, Davina: same principle on meta. Sonya: I enjoy, I enjoy Punking It. I do. I really do. Davina: Right, right. I could tell you really, you really enjoy that, that kind of puzzling. Sonya: Yes. Davina: And I think that it's something that, you know, I, I, I hope people are listening to this and they're thinking to themselves, oh my God, I don't have time for that. I hope that's what they're thinking. I don't have time for that because it should not be you doing this. Like, if I, if I could be more clear, you know, not be more clear, um, but you should not be the one doing this. Davina: This is not a self-study program, not a self-study course. It's something where you hiring people to help you with this, you just don't have time for it. Even if you have an interest, if you're running a law firm business, this is one of those areas that is an outsourced area. You don't wanna spend the weekend sitting there with your, you know, plugin on [00:43:00] the back or trying to write long articles so that you're long enough, but not too long Articles. Davina: That's not where you should be putting your efforts in this, right? You agree? Sonya: Yep. Oh, absolutely. You can check an SEO box. Okay. Installed my plugin. I did the stuff. It's not, you're not going to rank. It's too competitive. Um, it is expensive, and that's where the things you, you can do to get ready for an investment. Sonya: Like SEO, don't install a plugin. Don't hire your nephew. Okay? Um, that's where, like I said, generating content, good, unique quality content that will serve you in the future that we can then take, make better. And then like I said, putting a review process in place. Those are the sort of the two things that you can do as an owner to get ready for an investment like seo. Sonya: The other thing that we do is, uh, attribution. So to be able to [00:44:00] offer a strategy, Hey, you know, we are seeing that you're getting a lot of clicks on this blog article. We want to beef it up. We want to do this internal linking. Um, you know, your, your local stuff's performing really well. We wanna put some more effort there to pay attention every day. Sonya: Look and see, oh, you're ranking five. Oh wow, we got you to three. We're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. Lawyers do not have time to do that. And if they do have time to do that, like it's probably not gonna serve them very well. Davina: Yeah. They have other strategy in their business if they're, if they're dealing with that. Sonya: Yes. Davina: It's fun though. Yeah, I love all the tips. Uh, and also I want to address the expense issue because I do think that, you know, I'm always telling my clients not to say that everybody listening to this should go out in higher rankings. I don't think, you may not be there yet, you may not be the right client yet, but, or even other firms as well.[00:45:00] Davina: But, uh, so I love all the, the prep, but I also wanna shift some mindset around the expense part of it, because I do think. When, when you are at the point where this is a smart investment, that's where you have to start looking at what will the return on my investment be? Because that's it. Yes, it's, yes, there's an expense associated with, but there's also a great reward associated with it if you hire the right company. Davina: Right. You wanna tell us maybe some about, uh, about some of you, do you have any case studies in in mind? I know that's kind of put you on the spot, Sonya: but Yeah. No, we have, we have a couple case studies. Um. I will get you a link so that you can kind of, um, if you wanna share it. What, yes. What we have seen is when people are ready to make an investment, um, they need to have their ducks in order. Sonya: They need to be ready, they need to have their intake system ready. They need to have their case management stuff, [00:46:00] all of that, because it will increase their leads significantly. SEO needs a little bit of time to bake. That's what we've launched firms, small single owner firms into million dollar firms with SEO because that ROI of being that first with the intent car accident lawyer, that person is ready to sign Mass Torts. Sonya: We're seeing that right now. That is a huge return on investment from lawyers for PI lawyers. If they can get that number one spot, they get a single case, it will pay for us. You know? Right. So SEO still is when you're ready. Like I said, when you've, when you're ready to grow, when you've got your systems, you've got everybody in place. Sonya: It is hands down still the best ROI. Um, it's like social. You can pour a ton of money into videography and branding and photos and, um, producers and all of this different stuff, [00:47:00] and it's good. Like, it's a great. Brand awareness. It's a great trust signal, but it is not gonna generate a case the way that organic SEO is. Davina: It's not a directly magnet, right? Sonya: Yes, Davina: you are. And I think you make a great point about the intake system. You've mentioned this a few times. I, so what I often, the way I often put it to clients is I can hand you the keys to a million dollar multimillion dollar law firm right now, but you are not the person who can run it right now. Davina: All of the processes that you go through. The mental and emotional evolution, the expanded mindset capacity, the, and then setting up all of your systems, your intake, your, your, you know, can you have to, you have to set all that up because if I suddenly just pour opened the faucet and gave you all the clients in the world that you say you want, you'd be sitting in a quarter in the fetal position crying. Davina: I mean, I know that, and that it's just the way people are because you have to [00:48:00] evolve. To become the person who can handle it. And your law firm has to evolve to be at a certain we, yes, we're ready for the capacity. Because if you don't have the team, if you don't have the systems, if you don't have it re ready to be on go, then what's gonna happen is you'll suddenly get a flood and then you'll be worried about losing your bar card because things are gonna fall through the cracks. Davina: So very important. Um. Thing to share with everybody. I'm glad that you did that all. So we need to end, um, I, yes, I, I have a lot more questions I could probably ask you, but let's go ahead and wrap it up for today. I think there's a lot in here for people to think about and a lot of gold nuggets for people. Davina: So tell us how we can learn more about rankings.io and how we can connect with you, um, and other people on the team. Sonya: Yes, please, uh, rankings.io. Come to the contact page. We'd love to take a look at anybody's site, um, no matter kind of where you're at in your digital marketing journey, uh, please come talk to [00:49:00] us. Sonya: Of course, we have the law, her podcast that, uh, comes out every Wednesday, and then our PIM podcast too, that Chris Dryer hosts. Um, just focus specifically on personal injury marketing, and then you can email me. I'm sonya@rankings.io. Davina: Great, thank you. I do wanna ask one touch on, one thing that I forgot to ask you is that, I know I noticed on the website there are other verticals that you work with. Davina: So it looked like criminal, uh, defense was one. Um, you had real estate, maybe some other, you have some other verticals are, is that something that you're scaling down now or is it something that you're still servicing those clients or, Sonya: yes, we still work with all firms. We just specialize in pi. So, yes, and like I said, we do have other services. Sonya: We've now opened design and we're looking to, to move into paid ads, um, and maybe some other services for legal. But yeah, we work with all, all different types of law firms. We just specialize in pi. Davina: [00:50:00] Wonderful. Sonya, thank you so much for being here and sharing, and I appreciate, I appreciate you coming on to the Wealth Woman Lawyer podcast since we had such a wonderful interview and getting the pleasure of talking with you for another hour. Davina: So thanks so much for being here. Sonya: Yes. Thank you. Happy to be here.