Latest / Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories / The Healing Power of Nature for Neurodivergent Kids: Empathy, Confidence, and Outdoor Learning with Amy Giannotti

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The Healing Power of Nature for Neurodivergent Kids: Empathy, Confidence, and Outdoor Learning with Amy Giannotti · Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories

• 0:01
  Speaker A: Welcome to the Inchtones podcast. On today's episode, I have a new dear friend of mine, Amy Giannatti, who is an environmental scientist and educator. She has lived many lifetimes being just leaning into her best skills. And our connection comes from desiring to tell our stories and share out loud. But in realizing the connection to Amy's love of nature and experiencing her own moments with special needs and autistic children, I found such synergy in forming not only a friendship, but a real understanding of how we can work together. So, Amy, thank you for being here today.
• 0:40
  Speaker B: I am so excited. Sarah, thank you so much for having me and for seeing the value, I think, in environmental education, not just to save the planet, but it helps all of us so much in many ways that extend beyond conservation.
• 0:56
  Speaker A: Yes, the, the biggest thing, and I'll jump right into it, is my children's sensory needs are so vast and different from a typically developing child and realizing how much nature and getting out in nature and you know, my, one of my things is choosing to interact with the world, right? Getting outside, leaving the door, leaving our home, the safe place. But nature can be so calming and give such peace to my children who have a crazy sensory diet and inputs that I don't necessarily know exactly what they are. But nature can serve as such a balm to their peace and give them such input from just being natural and in our backyard. So, you know, talk to me about maybe your experience with that and your day to day.
• 1:49
  Speaker B: Yeah. So I am a classically trained environmental scientist. And then while I was in graduate school, I decided to, well, I had to teach undergraduates. And at the time I thought I don't really want to be a teacher. But then as I got into it more and I was teaching college kids, man, I fell in love with it. And so after graduate school, I went and I taught secondary ed at a private school for a number of years. And what was so neat and so remarkable was I had the opportunity and the support from a really amazing school president and administrator to take my kids out in the field. I would take them on 34 day Marine biology field trips in the coast of Virginia, sea kayaking. Anyway, this, this all built up and got bigger and more complex and ended up taking kids to Mexico, working in the jungles of the Yucatan. And what I love about environmental education is it levels the playing from traditional academic settings. So and by that I mean you get a kid who's, you know, straight A's and does really well and is by all of our traditional accounts of measuring Success, just a, you know, a gifted kid, right. And you get them out into nature and suddenly sometimes those kids struggle and they find new challenges for them. And I, what I saw were my kids who were really struggling in the classroom with the traditional assignments. Man, they became the stars when we put them in the field and hands on education and experiential learning. And I loved that. And I know for one young man, that experience alone is what gave him the confidence to eventually apply to college because it was never on his radar screen before. He was not only a high achiever, he really struggled with everything academically, but hands on, he was a star. And in the natural world, it's just a, it's a different classroom for everybody.
• 3:41
  Speaker A: Yes. And it is a classroom. I think that that's what I try to remind other parents such as myself who fear new experiences and. Because you don't know how children with specifically non speaking autism are going to react. Because I believe, you know, all behavior is communication. But what I do see is that even in an attempt to be in nature, whatever that looks like, I have yet to see anything but a. Give a positive balance to their being, like literally who they are, like crunching leaves. I mean, you can't even, it's. It sounds so simple, but it gives so much. And I think that that is just what I want to shout it from the, from the mountaintops about what nature can give these kids.
• 4:33
  Speaker B: I agree with you 100% and I love that, you know, now we're talking so much about STEM these days, Science, technology, engineering and math. And we throw the A in there for art. Really, nature is so interdisciplinary, no matter the subject that you're teaching, you can put that in outdoor education or environmental education. But what I also love, like you mentioned, it's a balm. I think it cultivates empathy in all of us. And for kids or people who are, you know, maybe neurotypical or sorry, neurodivergent, they're looking for a connection. And sometimes a traditional classroom or a playground may not have that same setting, but when they can connect with the plants and the animals and the water and the dirt and the earthworms, it opens up a whole new treasure trove of discovery for them, you know, and I like that. I think it's true for all of us.
• 5:26
  Speaker A: Yes, I agree. I mean like, I think about like.
• 5:28
  Speaker B: Textures, sound, art, how, how much my.
• 5:31
  Speaker A: Son specifically seeks out sensory input from different textures and. Right. You can buy, you can go to Lakeshore Learning and you can buy blocks that have Russell's on it bristles all these things. Or you can just go outside two blocks from my house and walk up to. To the park on this little loop. And yeah, our shoes are gonna get messier. But like, you know, fall in the northeast has really shown off this time of year. And we have gotten leaf crunching like I've never, like I've never experienced in the last 20 years. Cause we haven't had. Obviously there's been a lack of rain, which is sad, but high leaf crunching abilities right now and seeing and just that alone has given my son a being outside, fresh air, getting grounding. Sometimes he's running outside without his shoes on in this weather. It's okay. I know what that's giving him. The grass beneath his feet. I mean, it can be as basic as that. And that's something so cool about leaning into using nature as part of a sensory diet for a child, for sure.
• 6:33
  Speaker B: And it doesn't, like, just like you said, it doesn't have to be a formalized curriculum of education, just exploring, you know, with your five senses. I remember, I remember as a little kid just going in my backyard and literally looking through the grass and watching the ants, you know, and I. I didn't have a textbook there. I didn't have an adult there with me. I was just like, watching them crawl, watching them move and, you know, seeing what their day was like and.
• 6:58
  Speaker A: Right.
• 6:59
  Speaker B: So I have a nephew who is neurodivergent. And one thing that I, you know, I want people to know that everybody brings something to the table, right. In all walks of life. It's the, like the stone soup theory or whatever. But one thing I think that I see with him that is so incredibly amazing is his ability to observe and like, collect data. So for him, one of his huge interests is all of the specific details of luxury cars, like which accessories are on which model and this and that. But he has such an encyclopedic level of knowledge of that, you know, and. And so for him, one of his favorite things to get out and do is go to a car dealership or go stand in the park and watch the cars go by and we talk about them. And that's not as wild as just being in nature, but that is experiential education. That is learning in the field. And he brings a lot to the T when you start those discussions. He knows way more than most of the sales reps.
• 8:06
  Speaker A: It's the awareness. It's a level of awareness to detail. And I believe that it, it is filling to them in a way that a typical brain or a typical neurotypical person can't understand how fulfilling that is for them to notice. And I always find it so interesting, because isn't staying curious in life, isn't that what we're. What we're, like, supposed to do? Right. Thank you. Even in relationships or, you know, just in school, we always say, like, no question is a bad question. That's. And the irony, I always say, with having children like Millie and Mac is that that's all they know how to do. That's all they know how to do, is to pay attention and to stay curious and probably not be conditioned by what they think they should do or how something should be used. They just see it for what it is, and they try whatever they feel that they could do, you know, with it.
• 9:02
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it opens. I mean, I also think their curiosity is magnified to a level that, you know, sometimes we forget how much fun that can be and how much. You know, as a scientist, one of my favorite things to remind especially older kids is that don't be afraid to fail. We learn more from failing than we do from success. Right. Like, if we. If we all stopped trying to walk the first time we fell, we would all be still sitting on the floor, crawling around, whatever, you know, we have.
• 9:33
  Speaker A: To be able to. And we. And we encourage falling like that.
• 9:37
  Speaker B: Right, Exactly. And as we get older, that becomes a real fear for many people. But in science, it's absolutely critical because that continuous curiosity and, you know, don't be afraid to fail. Don't be afraid to try something new that drives innovation and exploration and learning. You know, it causes you to ask new questions. It causes you to reframe how you think in, you know, conducting an experiment. And I think in younger kids, and especially in neurodivergent people, that's so natural for them. They. They don't think twice about how excited they get about something or how in detail they get or. Well, this didn't work. Let me. Let me do something differently. And those are lessons for us all my favorite things.
• 10:19
  Speaker A: And then I want to ask you going to. Talking about water, because I know you and I both have a lot of desire to share just the healing properties of it. But before I get there, I want to say that Millie, when you. When you talk about looking at something differently, we went and we're decorating cookies and she has a talker, you know, that. That she is learning to express herself more and more on. And create full sentences. And we were Decorating cookies. And she said, where is the rice? And I'm looking around going, rice? Like, where's the rice? And she's like, I want the white rice. And my oldest daughter, Morgan, goes, oh, she means. She means the sprinkle, the clear sprinkle. But there wasn't a word. She didn't have sprinkles on her list. So she found the next closest thing to describe the sprinkle. And I thought, that's something that a typical child might learn to be conditioned to not ask because they don't have the word for it. Or they think, like, that's. I know it's not rice, so I'm not gonna ask. But she just used it. And that's one of the coolest things about the autistic mind and the neurodivergent curiosity to things.
• 11:24
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's.
• 11:25
  Speaker A: I mean, not being afraid to fail.
• 11:28
  Speaker B: For sure. I. I agree. And it. And it surely is just a different way of thinking. Right. Like, we encounter people who think differently all our lives, but it's so neat to see it in kids. And like I said, putting them in nature, it's just. It just. It peels off the layers of, you know, anxiety or concern sometimes, and. And they just can be themselves. And there's. There's literally so much to learn. Like you said, it can be tactile, it can be kinesthetic, it can be visual, it can be auditory. And they're learning just while they're exploring. And that's, I think, one of my favorite things.
• 12:06
  Speaker A: That's exactly. And that's what I want to hammer home on this, is that even just getting out to the walk or to the park and knowing, like, sometimes I joke that, you know, my life is like, all right, set the bar low. Nope. Go lower. Nope. Nope. Still have it. Nope. Okay. But expectations is really low. But because of that, it allows for. Well, there's also a possibility that we could be out here for an hour and they might be so receptive to it. And I find that when I engage with nature and with water, play or any sort of medium outside the home that is natural, there is something that keeps them interested. And it just speaks to the power of science and nature and their environment for children on the spectrum. Because in general, you're not going to find there's anything similar with every child on the spectrum. Right. There's a reason they call it a spectrum, because their behaviors are so different and they exhibit so differently. But the one thing that seems to be rising up for me so much Is their desire to be in nature. And it's a reminder then to me, I always think, like, what a cool reminder to be like, yep, Sarah, you gotta go outside today, right?
• 13:14
  Speaker B: Yes. Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's the best therapy. It's the best medicine. And it doesn't have to be a trip to an exotic location, just like you said, crunching leaves under your feet. That is so much fun.
• 13:26
  Speaker A: So it's so much fun. And sometimes we make it so complex, it doesn't have to be.
• 13:31
  Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. But I think there's a. You know, there's kudos to you for getting them outdoors. You know, there. There are a lot of students. I live in Orlando and was doing a program. Well, this is almost 20 years ago now, so don't do the math, but over near Daytona beach, there's a high school that is less than two miles from the ocean. And there were students there who had never seen the ocean. These are high school kids that, you know, you think should be running around on a bicycle or on their own.
• 13:55
  Speaker A: Two feet or should be surfing, like.
• 13:57
  Speaker B: Yeah. And some of them. But I. I think some. A lot of that comes back to what are parents helping their kids explore and find.
• 14:07
  Speaker A: Right.
• 14:09
  Speaker B: And that's a. You know, that's a free trip, and it's. It's a short trip, and everybody could get there. But, you know, I had encountered a population of students who had not been given that privilege. And my heart hurt because I was like, gosh, there's some. You know, what if there's so much there, like you said, for your emotional wellbeing and not to mention the potential for learning and connecting with nature and with other people in nature. Those are all the types of people that I gravitate to.
• 14:37
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 14:38
  Speaker B: People who love the outdoors. It's just that.
• 14:40
  Speaker A: That, like, that thought of just being in nature. And the input I always think about, like, the input is so different from what children on the spectrum need. And my son specifically has a lot more sensitivity. Sensitivity to the. To auditory stimuli. And I find, though, that auditory stimuli in nature doesn't exhibit the same meltdown as maybe a buzzer at a basketball game or a screech of someone's shoes. Like.
• 15:10
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 15:11
  Speaker A: So that, to me, that informs me of something. So that informs me that it's not just the sound. It's the source of the sound when. Which is positive to him. And you can just start going down this list of reasons. And, like, for my son, he would live in water. I mean, he would live in water. And the the joy that water gives him is different than the joy that it gives to Millie. Cause they are totally different kids. But, gosh, it brings him such joy. And, you know, you and I both share a love of the book the Blue Mind and how we are. We are drawn to it as a species. But why specifically is someone with a neurodivergent mind drawn to it even more? And it's just so cool.
• 15:48
  Speaker B: I absolutely agree. And. And there's so much there that's calming. There's so much there that's soothing, even if you. There's also a whole lot to explore, whether it's a mud puddle or the ocean. There's texture, there's temperature, there's depth, There's. There are ripples. There's, you know, calm water. It. It's just. There's. There's so many places you can go with that. And I. I echo your same observations about the source of the sound with my nephew. Same thing. I feel like the sounds when we're outdoors, you know, loud waves at the beach, it doesn't. Doesn't have the same effect, like you said, as a basketball buzzer or a train whistle or something. But, yeah, maybe. Maybe it's also too. Because in nature, you know, our. Our heightened awareness, we might be aware of what's around us, but we're more calm in doing so. You know what I mean? Like, it. It sparks a curiosity and. But also a. Brings calm and peace so that maybe those sounds aren't as triggering. I don't know.
• 16:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know either. I mean, it's. Even with a late ADHD diagnosis, my neurodiversity is so different in obviously a muted way. I always wonder why my children love being on the shore. And like, Millie, like, loves the waves. And I always think, oh, it's because she knows the next one's coming. Like, she's able to prepare, mentally predict, because waves and predict the waves. And then I think, oh, it's also pattern seeking. She seeks out those patterns. And then I think, okay, that's why she got really into the leaf collecting a few weeks ago. My best friend's family lives in Florida, and every year we send them a big box of northeast crunchy leaves. Because, like, because she grew up in Pennsylvania for a few years of her life, and she doesn't have it in Jacksonville, so we collect it. But Millie was only picking up the one kind of leaf. And I realized that the first couple leaves she put in, she's like, now I'm collecting these ones and There were a few other varietals of leaves, but like, that's so satisfying to them. You think about patterns and recognizing that it's a skill that these minds have. They find it in nature, then they don't have to look for it that hard. They don't have to look. It's just there.
• 17:55
  Speaker B: And it's not something that, that, that the rest of us might even pick up on as a pattern. And I think that transitions well to, you know, when they grow up and they begin looking for jobs. Like people need to understand and realize there's a huge propensity here for such unique skills in terms of data collection or record keeping or.
• 18:19
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 18:20
  Speaker B: So much potential if we all under. Take the time to understand their way of thinking and their way of observing.
• 18:28
  Speaker A: Totally. And I always say they'll be the. They'll be your best employee because once they realize that they're good at that, they're. They don't want to miss a day. They don't want to miss a beat. Like, they want to keep doing it. Like stopping. Stopping Millie from collection of patterns or collection of something that's like. She's like, I know how to do this and I've mastered it. Dare you to pull her away from it. It's like, sweetie, we gotta go. It's time. It's gonna get dark. The coyote comes out this time of day in this one park. We gotta go. Okay.
• 18:58
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 18:58
  Speaker A: But like, again, she probably wouldn't even pay attention. And the coyote probably wouldn't even pay attention to her. Cause like, that's. I just think they're, they're. They have a sense about them that gravitates towards it and then it. Get whatever that input is and gives to them, allows them to have a peace about other things. And I think it's just such a reminder to us as adults that like, we can get that too.
• 19:18
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 19:18
  Speaker A: And by living that way and by choosing to interact with nature, we are given so much back.
• 19:26
  Speaker B: Yeah. And it's. I think the other thing that I. I noticed with my nephew is a. Loves order and structure, you know, and so I think that goes along really well with, with patterns and predictability. And nature can deliver a lot of that. I mean, we, we see it sometimes as like, oh, there's, you know, the world is your oyster. There's so many things out there, but there's also so much order, so much structure that if you're looking for it or if you're a person who keys in on it, you're going to See it, you know, pop up in so many different places among living things or among the physical parts of nature that support life. It's just. Yeah, it's. It's my favorite thing to do is just environmental education and.
• 20:05
  Speaker A: Well, I love it. And one of my favorite stories that I'll share with you about Millie is we were in a hike somewhere upstate a couple years ago, and Millie of any preferred food, like in her food pyramid, like Sour Patch Kids are to your Oreos to her. Okay.
• 20:19
  Speaker B: Yeah, there we go.
• 20:20
  Speaker A: And she. There. It's like she has never met a Sour Patch kid she doesn't love. And on a hike, it was, I believe, in, like, the late summer. And there were a lot of salamanders out on the. On the hike. And I picked one up and I had it in my hand. And gosh, does a. There's a tiny little baby salamander that's bright orange look a lot like a bright orange Sour Patch Kid. And she almost put that thing in her mouth. And I thought to myself, my gosh, like, this is where she's realizing that there is an outdoor life of things we can ingest and an indoor life of things we can ingest. So. So nature also can provide humor. I think it can provide funny moments, you know, like.
• 20:56
  Speaker B: Absolutely.
• 20:57
  Speaker A: And that's connectivity, too, I always say. It connects. It allows for conversation. You know, I love seeing people on hikes together. Right. I love what it gives. So I. I applaud just the work that you're doing. I'm so thankful that.
• 21:09
  Speaker B: Thank you.
• 21:10
  Speaker A: Because I think you're not only affecting younger generations just through your teachings, but you live it. And it's really nice to see someone. I mean, you practice what you preach. Your whole life's mission is on this.
• 21:22
  Speaker B: Thank you.
• 21:23
  Speaker A: And it's. And it exudes from you. You know, I've also met your offspring. I met one of them, and she is incredible to boot. So you also have the. Have the results, too, Amy. You have great children, too.
• 21:34
  Speaker B: Thank you so much. That means a lot to me. And, you know, from a. On the neurotypical subject, my youngest, who you haven't met yet, she is the one who volunteers with the center for Autism and Related Disabilities at UCF University of Central Florida. And it's so cool, Sarah, because they. My two daughters took this class as siblings of an autistic kid because their cousin is. And he lives down the street. So they did this back just, I think at the beginning or just before COVID And there was a. There's a Younger group and an older group, and they got a lot out of it. So much out of it. And then my younger one went back and started sort of being an intern teacher. And then the professor asked her to co present at a conference with her. And it's so neat to see. See, she got hired the summer to teach swimming lessons at a swim school because of her experience and knowledge about neurotypical kids, how they think, how they respond, you know, what ways can you give them instruction and have them be a successful swimmer? And she just, I mean, just took that and ran with it. And now she's gonna major in psychology, I think, with an early childhood emphasis because of a lot of that. And I often laugh. People, you know, know that we live in Orlando, and they're like, well, can you tell me something about the parks? You know, I'm like, I know nothing about the amusement parks, but I don't actually got. My kids have, like, we know all about the nature stuff here because that's what we do. And I kind of was afraid a little bit as a parent when they were growing up. Gosh, like, all the other kids are hanging out at the amusement parks. Are these. Are my kids gonna feel dejected? And it's so funny. They don't, like, they don't miss it. They don't. They're not even really curious about it.
• 23:13
  Speaker A: They don't even know. That's the thing is, like, you don't know what you don't know. Right. And as a parent. And as a parent, we, you know, I. My parallel to that with Morgan is like, people are always shocked at how much I take her into New York City. Like, I love New York City. I. It. I love just the. The world is your oyster in New York, right?
• 23:29
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 23:29
  Speaker A: But like, it's not easy to take children to New York. And I take Mac and Millie in too. And I think, I. I think so much about, like, we have the ability to choose how our children interact and engage with the world and to limit them to only things or, or roller coasters or all these different things. Like, those are great. And trust me, Millie's a thrill seeker. That girl sister loves Space Mountain. She loves Space Mountain, but if she could only go on Space Mountain, she'd be fine. She doesn't have to see anything else at Disney. She just likes the thrill. Right? And so it's using all those things that are already out there that are in your backyard. You know, whether it's like you said, the blades of grass and getting a microscope or a magnifying glass or out in the park and crunching leaves and collecting pine cones to decorate the holidays. It's so simple, but it's so worth it, and it gives them so much.
• 24:21
  Speaker B: It is so worth it. And, you know, as they get older, there are tons of jobs and careers in these types of things. Like, you know, for me, I knew I couldn't work inside. I had to work outside. And as I was coming up through the ranks of school and academia, you know, I kind of toyed with maybe environmental law or being an environmental scientist. And I'm like, I can't be indoors. Like, I just can't.
• 24:42
  Speaker A: Yes, yes.
• 24:43
  Speaker B: And that's literally what steered me away. I mean, my mom was a surfer and taught me a lot about the ocean. My dad was a forester and a wildlife biologist. So I grew up in the outdoors. But to be able to also take my passion and turn it into a career and then also helping others is. It's super rewarding. Not only is it rewarding, though, I learned so much from the people that I'm teaching, like, just new ways to, you know, explain a concept or make an observation or. And, you know, my connection to Schoolyard Films, which is the little nonprofit that I work with, we have kids of all types in our nature films so that other kids who are watching the films can see their peers, you know, exploring nature or doing science or experiencing something, you know, hands on. And then they're also the experts in the film, too, so that you can, you know, grow up and be a bear biologist or an octopus or whatever.
• 25:43
  Speaker A: We have to model that to our children. And part of modeling is showing them through films such as that you guys produce, is saying that, like, this is what other children can do with you. This isn't something that your parents are. I grew up. My parents are very outdoorsy, too. And so, like, I grew up, like, at this one park in Pittsburgh, like. Cause my parents were runners and they were. Okay. One goes for one place with me at the park, the other one goes for one place with me at the park. But, like, I have such deep childhood memories from growing up in parks and the children that were around that and the other children that being out in nature and like, going to camps that provide outdoor experiences. I know that it's from the modeling of the parent.
• 26:24
  Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. I mean, as an adult, it's so funny because, yeah, my. My circle of friends are the people that I gravitate to. Every single one of them has a love of the outdoors.
• 26:36
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 26:37
  Speaker B: And many of them an appreciation for education and helping others too. But. But people that don't, you know, I'm just like, don't really have much in common. Why don't you go do a little more open minded?
• 26:50
  Speaker A: Why don't you do a little soul searching? I'll be here whenever you're ready.
• 26:53
  Speaker B: Well, I think, you know.
• 26:56
  Speaker A: Literally go take a hike.
• 26:57
  Speaker B: Yeah, Literally, go take a hike.
• 26:58
  Speaker A: Literally, go take a hike.
• 26:59
  Speaker B: Yeah. Or jump off a pier or something.
• 27:01
  Speaker A: Exactly. But seriously, jump off and enjoy the water, Right?
• 27:04
  Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. No, it's, it's. There's so much to learn.
• 27:08
  Speaker A: Well, thank you so much. This is such a wonderful conversation. And it's just a reminder to other parents like myself that getting out, being proactive about that one step in front of the other in the woods in your backyard can provide so much to these kids for their bodies and for their mind, more than. And it'll pay dividends in ways that we probably can't even qualify and quantify.
• 27:30
  Speaker B: Absolutely.
• 27:31
  Speaker A: We can feel it.
• 27:32
  Speaker B: Aside from the academic learning and the exploration that they get, just the self confidence, it builds that and it builds, I think, their empathy with the connection to nature. That is. It's hard to teach. You know, it's just like they have.
• 27:46
  Speaker A: To learn how to teach it. You just got to learn it. Right?
• 27:49
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 27:50
  Speaker A: All right, Amy Giannati, thank you so much. And we'll see you next time. We'll see you all next time on the Inside Podcast. Bye, y' all.