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Pure Undistilled Evil · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Appoche Production.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann.
• 0:16
  Speaker 3: I'm your host, Adam Shann does Evil Ever Mellow with
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: age Alistair Farquh. McCrae is a quadruple murderer who killed
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: four people, including three members of the same family. After
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: almost four decades behind bars, he's now seventy seven years
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: old and fighting for his freedom. But can the passage
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: of time make a man who committed such terrible crimes
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: safe to be in the community again? Or does the
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: capacity for extreme violence remain regardless of age. When sentenced
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: for his crimes, even with Craze said he should never
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: be released as he could not function as a normal
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: member of society.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: So what's changed today? I'm joined by former.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: Victoria Police Assistant Commissioner Noel Ashby, who examined McCrae's crimes,
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: his bid for release, and the question at the heart
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: of every parole decision involving a multiple murderer that's seventy seven.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Does McCrae still pose a danger to the community?
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Can I know?
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Adam?
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Good morning, Yeah, pleasure to have you on the show mate.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: It's been a while.
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: You worked in the homicide squad, you worked all across
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Victoria Police, you dealt with crooks at all kind of levels.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: Do they change over time?
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: Some do, some don't, And I think I don't think
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: we can landly say across the board everyone's the same.
• 1:30
  Speaker 4: We've got to look at individual personalities, individual psychology and
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: that should surely be the key as to do people
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: change or do they become a danger or do they
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: continue to be a danger.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: Because you think it's seventy seven, after all that time
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: behind bars, I mean, I think he was happy to
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: stay there.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: I think his son agitated for him to.
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: Seek parole and that was granted conditionally, I think in
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, pending a review. Now that's going on
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: and there's a debate going on about him. But even
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: he said that back in the day that wouldn't be released.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: I'm a danger to the community.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: And you know, I.
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: Wonder with also being in jail for that long, you're
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: some institutionalized, you're pretty much useless for life on the
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: outside anyway.
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's the very strong support for that, you know,
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: And there's seventy seven and there's seventy seven. I hate
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: to say it, but you know, there's and he go
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: back to and I mean not only physically. You go
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: back to what are their connections? And you had to
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: look at McCrae. His history was he was just imbued
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: socially as he grew up with violence. The violence that
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: he displayed to others was frightening by any standard. That
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: they weren't acts of passion in any sense, and they
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: were completely transactional and without feeling nor regard for anyone else.
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: And how does someone come back from that and then
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: in any way vaguely become a contributing or benign member
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: of society.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: And it's very.
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: Hard to see how McCrae would do that, coming from
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: his background in the seventies and eighties in the organized
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: crime environment in Melbourne.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's worth looking back at what he did.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: So in July nineteen eighty five, he shoots a guy
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: called Dominic Mara Fiote, who was a Mildura Marafioti, who
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: was a greengrocer and Mildura they were doing some sort
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: of marijuana deal and McCray decided he was just going
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: to murder a Marafioti and bury him in a pre
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: dug grave in the chicken coop on his property there. Merbin,
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: that's right, and then not content with that for some reason,
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: he drives to Adelaide and he kills Dominic's parents, Rosa
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: and Carmelo Marafioti, at their Woodville North home.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: You think, why would you even do that?
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, maybe they had some knowledge that Dominic was
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: going there, maybe or just an insurance policy.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: But it's exceptional. They're cruel.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: And six months earlier he done something similar to a
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: guy called Albert O'Hara. Like Dominick, he was lured to
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: McRae's property as part of a marijuana deal.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: He was shot dead and buried on the property as well.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, I can't believe you you'd want to murder
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: someone and bury them when you own property.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: For a start. That's one cold unit.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: And he had a history going back into the seventies.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: As you say in Victorian organized crime. He was caught
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: up with a guy called Jeffrey.
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: Lamb who ran an empire of massage parlots.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Give us a bit of background on Lamb. What was
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: he like?
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: Lamb was the Lamb was the head of the empire.
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: He was the king king and there's debate about the
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: number of massage partlers he had.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: You've got to go back.
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: To Melbourne and think about some Kill the road at
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: that time and you look at some Kill the road
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: now it's completely different, leafy residential towers, office towers.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: It was wall to wall massage.
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: Parlors and red lights, gearish garish girls being flashed out
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: electronically onto the street and people would think, is that Melbourne,
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: but it actually was. You also extended up towards Carlton,
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: up along Nicholson Street where there was a row of
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: parlors there and Lamb was at the forefront. Now I
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: know at this time because I was a young policeman
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: in the mid seventies and in the eighties, and I
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: was at Sekula Road and Seculda at that time, and
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: so I know what's se cooler it was like at
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: those days. Sinkuila Road was like in those days. And
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: Lamb was brazen. He used to turn up in a Lamborghini,
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: which was a couple hundred thousand bucks back then, and
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: he visited the parlors all the time, was constantly.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: A presence and his strong man even or it was McCrae.
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: And I'll get onto what I thought of McCray when
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: I first met him. But he McCrae was the enforcer now.
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: At the same time, people were dying of overdoses of heroin,
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: principally heroin. There wasn't so much other drugs around like
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: there is is today, but heroin was the scourge then
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: and they were dying in the streets, in the lanes,
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: even back in the mid eighties when I was at
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: Saint Kilder for two years as a sergeant after being
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: promoted for homicides, God back to uniform as a sergeant,
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: which was the process back then. You know, in the
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: two years I was back at Saint Cildan sergeant back
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: in the mid eighties, you know, fifteen young people died,
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: thirteen of them women on the street of Ods, just
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: Od's Inns and Kilda, forget about Footscray and Dandy Knong
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: and Frank's and other hot spots, plus year handful of
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: country places. So the girl were dying in the massa parlors.
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: A number of them that died, their deaths were written
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: off as overdoses, and it was true the girls that
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: ended up in parlors were at the bottom of the
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: tree in terms of their dependence on heroin and were
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: doing anything to score they're up to two grand here today,
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: back back in the mid seventies to mid eighties, two grand.
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: How do you regenerate that?
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Well, that's right.
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: And also I guess an accidental overdose looks pretty much
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: the same as a hot shot. And you would think
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: that experienced users would know their dosage, know the strength
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: of the gear they're buying, and would try to avoid this.
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: And I mean, I think this is something that goes
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: to the current review if there's any connection between McCrae
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: or Lamb and any of these deaths, and I think
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: I don't want to be telling charitablock the way things
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: were investigated back then, But I don't think ladies of
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: this got the same service as ladies in Tuac if
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: they were murdered.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Is that a fair thing to say?
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: I think it is a fair thing to say. But
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: I'll say this, when a lady the night, if you
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: want to call later a prostitute was killed in the
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: homosip field, and they did happen from time to time.
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: There was no lesser effort in that sense. And I'll
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: explain what I mean by that. Explain what I mean
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: by that, because there's someone that out there who's killing people,
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: and it's only a matter of time. I'll do something
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: else more heinous and expand their operation, if you want
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: to call it that.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: The thing is with the.
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: Young women that died in the massage parlor industry. They
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: died of what was immediately assumed to be a heroine overdose.
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: There was no assessment made at the time, and the
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: same as it would have been of a young guy
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: who is a law student living interact with his parents
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: who perhaps got under heroin, was using it and had
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: a hot shot in his bedroom and died, it would
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: have been the same approach, would have been written down
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: as an accidental death as a consequence of our heroes,
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: and people probably forget it was really we look back now,
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: we wouldn't tolerate that now it was an epidemic. And
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: as I said, some killed a Nick Nicholson street car.
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: They were were they were fronts for they were an
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: affront to civilized society as we know it in Melbourne there.
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: But they were at a front two normal behavior has
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: said there was whole houses and the whole apartment blocks
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: rented just for sex and and heads the lights.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Hence that maybe this is not a coincidence.
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: Had killed a police headquarters, the Victoria Police it was.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: It was a good location to keep an eye on
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: the mayhem.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: Well, well back in the originally Lamb was knocking around.
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: There was a little police station called Sekilderade Police Station.
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: It was indwhen Crescent which is right on the corner
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: where four one twos and Killer Roade, which became the
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: crime essentially the crime department headquarters. Back in the day,
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: they were low level flats or apartments and they were
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: It wasn't four one twos and Kilarade as we know it,
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: and police were centralized into Russell Street, so they weren't
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: there in any numbers. They certainly didn't have detectives from
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: the robbery squad at the homicide squad or the major
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: crime Squad, all trapesing in and out. I would venture
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: to say sine Cuilier Road would have looked something completely
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: different if that happened.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: Right now, I think we're still in the days of
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: taken down to Russell Street, you know.
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, we are all the Scott's based in Russell
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: Street and sin Kilda Road for all. It's the heart,
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: but it was the heart of the vice area in Melbourne.
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: Standing down into Saint Kilda was police by a sixteen
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: hour police station with about a uniform police all very junior.
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: So I don't want to weave a theory from information
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: that's just anecdotal or coincidental. But we look at Lamb
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: in those days, he was untouchable and of course you'd
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: remember the fact that he was caught up with several
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: Victoria Police members who were accused of looking after him,
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: taking bribes, even blowing up rivals, massage parlors.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: And there's McCrae alongside.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: Lamb and yeah, so just gives a bit of background
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: what was going on with Lamb and Victoria Police.
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: Clearly, the Consulting Squad were a squad that existed in
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: Crime Partner Victoria to keep an eye on criminal movements.
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: There was a crime called consorting and there was a
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: process that needed to go through with the Consorting Squad
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: essentially monitored where people who've been convicted of s is
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: crime and organized serious crime went and policed from that
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: from that perspective, now, Paul Higgins, Paul Strang and Phil
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: Glair I think were in a crew together. They worked
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: in cruise. I think the Consulting Squad wasn't a large
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: squad like the robbers or the homicide squad, but they
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: are a smallish crew and I think there was either
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: two or three, so they would have been a saying sergeant,
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: two sergeants and two detectives or three sergeant two detectives each.
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: So in Cruise and Higgins led one of the crews,
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: and that consisted of Strang and Glare, and they then,
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: in their normal course of inquiries, got themselves involved with
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: Lamb and McCrae and as a consequence, became their protectors
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: in some way and their enforces in some way. And
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: the oversights didn't exist then as they would now perhaps
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: and perhaps even the ninety two thousands, but the oversights
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: didn't exist to hold people like you know, Higgins, Glare
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: and Strength to account to see what they're doing.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: They virtually operated as a law.
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: Unto themselves, and they could warn people off and they
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: could say, got some major inquiry going on with this blake,
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: and we're looking at him.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: So it was well known that Lamb.
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: He'd turned up in his massage parlor with in his Lamborghini,
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: and he often had a gun under the sea. Now,
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: the young uniform police were or wanted to pull him
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: up and get the gun and put him up before
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: the courts for possessing a pistol.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: But that never happened. And I was one of them.
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: I was one of them as a young uniform constable
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: and that was something we were largely focused on enforcing
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: them from that level. But at that time Higgins who
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: was considerably seen of a teteki sergeant at that time,
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: and I was a constable and.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: He was a hero back in those days.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Look.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: Look, he was well known at the time as and
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: well respected I might say in many much of what
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: he did, but there's always an edge. There was always
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: an edge, and was a big carefledge, a fairly good
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: footballer and sportsperson in his day too, and he played
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: VFL footing as it was back then, and he was
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: well regarded and thought to be a really hard at
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: the ball operational copper that sometimes went over the line
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: but never seemed.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: To get caught for it, but to be suspected of.
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: The organized crime that he was finally convicted of through
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: Operation Copper. I think it was run by the internal
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: security unit of Victoria Police.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: I think it shocked a lot of people.
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean he died back in I
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: think twenty sixteen.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: Hi cans on you him as well.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: I met him through Brian Francis Murphy, who was arguably
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: higgins mentor and Victoria Police or.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: I always tried to drag Murphy into this corruption situation
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: with Higgins and they failed.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: Remember from Assistant Commissioner Bob Falcon, I said Murphy was
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: either the most corrupt man in Victoria Police or the
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: most misunderstood.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: He couldn't work it out.
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: And Bob Falcon was actually when I was an inspector
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: at Ethical Standards Department, Bob Falcon before he went to
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: a West Australia as a Commissioner of Police, was the
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: Assistant Commissioner for Ethical Standards, and that would have that
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: was then at that stage in the nineties, and he'd
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: come to the view, he'd come to the view that
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: skull Murphy was perhaps the latter, not a crook, he
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: was perhaps the smartest person in on the block.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: I remember when I wrote the book about Murphy and
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: I said, this is getting a little bit. But I
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: asked Murphy, I said, listen, is it part of you
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: that felt that Higgins did your jail time and you
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: tee it up actually, and I think there's a little
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: bit of guilt about what happened, because Higgins ends up
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: getting a heavy lagging.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: I think he got nine years, didn't.
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: He Like it might have even been something like twelve
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: with the minimum of nine, so twelve on the top
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: twelve and that is a fair crack.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Well it is. I mean, you look what was going on.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: I think from memory Higgins was picking up about two
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: hundred and fifty bucks a week from Lamb. And this
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: went on until mid nineteen eighty sometime when Lamb becomes
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: upset because Higgins is having an affair with Lamb's wife,
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: which which must have thrown the cat amongst the pigeons,
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: and there's McCray alongside all the time, and he gets
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: charged with living off the earnings of a prostitute.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: I think in nineteen eighty two.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Act.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Right, So things are changing at this time, aren't they.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: You know, like this close relationship between Higgins and the
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: other police officers and Lamb and McCray is changing. Suddenly
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: mc cray gets charged. There must have been a shock.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: And so what happens after that, I mean, I believe
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: in the end Lamb turns on Higgins, and McCrae as well.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: What happened there.
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: What happened there is that the empire started to unravel
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: and the laws changed too in regards to massage parlors,
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: and there was a lot of criticism at the time
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: that they had to be then properly licensed and be
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: licensed through health authorities as well as licensed through local government.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: So it introduced a whole.
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: New layer of essentially not bureaucracy necessarily which it was,
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: but necessary bureaucracy. It also introduced some accountabilities where people
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: coming in on the outside were able to make independent
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: assessments and thought.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Is this behavior right? Should these parlors be allowed to
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: operate in this?
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: One knocked down the road when the law that was
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: in you just think by the Kane government said there
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: has to be registrations of these places and to be registered,
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: you have certain standards have to be met, and that
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: really that that would have hurt Jeffrey Lamb's financial empire immeasurably.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: And these people aren't people that then go along and
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: generally let's not again generalized, but they're not people that
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: go along and necessarily by investment properties or then look
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: to see what BHP is doing. On the market and
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: can we have a look at the NASDAK and put
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: a few bucks there because it'll really look after a
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: stance stream. They spend their money and you go back
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: and do the CPI on two hundred and fifty plus
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: a week just back in the mid eighties to now
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: going on and on and on.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: That's a lot of money.
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: So the dynamics changed suddenly. Through information that was received,
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: confidential information, we ended up with the Internal Security Unit.
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: Now the Internal Security Unit, we're an arm with the
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: Ethical Standards Department.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: They were not.
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: Based or the old ideas it was Internal Investigations Apartment.
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: They weren't based with them. They had separate premises in
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: South Melbourne and it was highly secret, if you can
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: use that term, and no one when Graham and I
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: went there, we we didn't just roll up. It had
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: to be arranged and we had to be vetted. And
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: it was like visiting Asus headquarters in Canberra. You just
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: don't walk in and there it is. And they received information,
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: they took it. I think cal Gleair was the chief commissioner.
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: They took it to the top and would have horrified
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: cal Glare to find someone by the name of Phil Glair,
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: who's so you can't choose your name? And long story short,
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: we ended up with the Internal Security Unit setting up
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: Operation Cobra. I think it was there was another operation
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: over that as well, but it was Cobra from memory,
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: and they targeted initially Higgins, Strang and Glaire, and they
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: targeted them as a consequence to see if there was
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: organized crime, not to establish it, let's have a look
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: and see. In the process they turned with not much
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: pressure when you really think of it, they turned Lamb
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: and McCrae. Now by that stage McCray was starting to
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: have he had other bigger problems to bear, and it
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: was a monolith his life that had become with crime
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: and murders and things of this nature. And hanging over
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: it also was the fact that there was about thirteen
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: or fourteen women that just died of overdoses in these
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: massage parlors. And you look back now at all that scenario,
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: and you look back at the investigative practices of the
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: day compared to now with telephone intercepts and DNA, etc.
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: That a lot of those women, most certainly you could say,
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: did not die of overdoses, rather forced overdoses.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: So you'd have a.
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: Look then at Lamb and McCray and McCrae's the enforcer
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: and the enforcer and the strong man. He actually operated.
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: He manipulated this. He didn't manipulate the system the word
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: I'm looking for. Perhaps he fooled the system because he
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: knew the police would come along and say, oh no,
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: this is just an idea. There was no money changing befween,
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: there was a free before him, so he could kill
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: people adnause him. And the girls that they killed are
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: those that knew too much over a period of time
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: and lived out their value and threatened the empire. Zadau, Higgins,
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: Glare and Strang turned a blind eye to that. Must
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: have known given that things that were organized, as you know,
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: there was sex parts he's organized for them.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: By Lamb and all this sort of stuff.
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: So a lot of women died that were written up
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: as od's And it's not only by the police, not
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: only by the forensic services, but also by the currenter's court.
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: The coronial services in the state accepted it. Coroners, successive
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: coroners of credit and of note clearly accepted on the
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: face of it and never sent one bit of corus
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: on the eight years of the homicide squad. I never
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: saw one bit of correspondence come back or speak to
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: a coroner that raised one issue. And we used to
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: speak to the coroners all the time, and you assistant.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Currenters one issue.
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: He slipped it through Adam and he got a system
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: where he was able to, I'll say it now, kill
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: people and not even cause an investigation as a consequence.
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: Right, And we go further on to the fore murders
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: he was convicted of. He's a cold, merciless killer. This
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: wasn't his first radio and I think you're right in
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: saying there should be a focus on those girls, those
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: women that died. But to be fair to the coroner,
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: the coroner is only as good as the information coming
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: from the investigators, the police department. And if there, as
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: we now know, there were people running interference for Lamb,
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: taking money from him and so forth, there could be
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: very They're totally compromised and there not able to give
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: any information. And so then we see Lamb and McCray
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: become informers. That's also probably a self preservation tactic. They
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: want to continue being free and they want to help
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: the police and so wow.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Then the murders happen and McCrae.
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: Finds his way into jar thirty six years and I
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: guess he's got a bit to worry about because he's
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: been an informer against police who have a lot to lose.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: And I think that's where you came back into the
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: story again as well, because there was information intel that
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: he was going to be murdered inside jail.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: That's correct, that's correct.
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: And as I said, I was operating pleased to be
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: out of the homicide environment after many years and albeit
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: major clusion investigations, but it was just a different you know,
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: high tech investigations, pure investigations and an important role dealing
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: with road safety in the community, you know. And I
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: was thoroughly enjoying it. And of course the phone rang
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: and I ended up for eight eighty nine having a
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: look at this the matter of Alistair Park, Farquhar McCrae
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: or Sandy McCrae, about he was going to be killed
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: in prison. Now he would have been sitting on the
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: knowledge of all the of all the other things he'd
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: done that he hasn't been even investigated for, let alone
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: charge acquit it if that was the case, and He
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: then alleged senior people right up to the director of
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: the Office of Corrections, who was then a blood by
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: the name of John Griffin, and and other senior executives
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: Peter Harmsworth. Peter Harmsworth became Secretary of Justice in the
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: state under successive governments, so he rose to a very
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: senior level, and that these people were orchestrating McCrae to
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: be put into a situation in prison where he was
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: going to be killed. Now, it seems on all the
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: available evidence, there was an a sceric of evidence to
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: support the involvement of any senior executive anywhere in government,
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: let alone the Office of Corrections. And it was based
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: purely on allegations, And therefore, what's the motive for the allegations?
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: And it was clearly McCrae was genuinely concerned for his
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: own security in the prison and he wanted to be
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: apart from the prison's population. So what better way than
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: to say, you know, I'm a really bad dude, and
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: there's a whole lot of people that are going to
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: kill want to kill me, and you put me out there,
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: it's going to look like another accident, you know, and
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: or it's going to look like I was the cause,
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: and we met McCrae.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: We went we went out to jail and met.
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: McCrae in highly security services on a number of occasions,
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: and we spoke to him. It wasn't just a one
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: off visit. We spoke to him at length. We recorded
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: lengthy conversations with him. He spoke openly to us, and
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: he wasn't trying, by any sense, to get out of prison,
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: and his earlier statements, as you outlined earlier, said exactly
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: that he wasn't. He was just simply wanting to be
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: set up as a loaner in the jail, away from
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: every everyone else, as a and an isolationist in many respects,
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: to run his own race entirely.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Because he was very much. I've seen a lot of killers.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: And and he was very much. He wasn't intimidating in
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: many ways. But that makes it all worse because he
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: killed people. You know, well, I think I mentioned earlier O'Hara.
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: I think I think O'Hara there was thoughts he was
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: an informer and McCray was organized to take him out
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: to top him and Mary Fiod. Clearly, we don't know
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: what was said, but you know clearly mum and Dad
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: had to go as well after he went, and they
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: had to go quickly. So you put those few, those
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: few together and that's not being glibb just linking and
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: like that.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: You put that four together and then you've got the massive.
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: Girls died of of drug overdose. I led you to
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: drug overdose. And one thing to put behind is on
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: the streets of Saint Kilda and the streets of Puts
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: Grayry and that same time people were dying and danding
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: on were dying of drug overdoses also, So it wasn't
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: this one event out of the blue.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: And people really.
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: Don't understand how bad the heroine scourge was in Melbourne
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: in those days.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, terrible. So he's in South Australia.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so he's under their jurisdiction serving out the
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: sentence for killing the Marathiod parents.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: If you're in.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: Victoria cold case homicide, you've got some of these cases
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: of these girls.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Who may have got hot shots.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Do you keep quiet now or do you send whatever
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: information you have to the parole board in South Australia
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: so they have a full knowledge.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Of what he may have been involved in.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: On just being fanciful here is it's all too long ago,
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: and it's impossible to have an impact with.
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: I think you send everything to the parole board. How
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: can the parole board make a decision. It's not an evidence,
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: it's not based on evidence. It's not cross examinable in
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: the sense. It's a matter for them for the parole
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: board to place what value they want. They can dismiss
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: that evidence entirely, and they could do so legally, or
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: they could accept parts of it and say say it
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: is a bridge too far to let a bloke like
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: this out. I would say, anyone that's got any information
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: send it. He's in I think, as I understand it,
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: at the moment, he's in a he's at Yattler in
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: South Australia in a pre release environment something like that.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: If the parole Board haven't got the information, we can't
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: complain that they make a decision to let him out.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: Indeed, so on balance, know what you know and what
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: we don't know for sure? What would you do if
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: you're on the parole board would you would you give
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: him then?
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: No, without hesitation, I wouldn't. There's a line in the sand.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: And while I have a softer view than many of
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: my former colleagues in regards to some areas of law enforcement.
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: But there are some people that are pure evil that
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: should never be released, and life should mean life, and
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: he should die in jail, and there is no there
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: is no empathy for him or he that's the same
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: empathy he displayed for his victims, and we must have
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: life means life in circumstances such as that.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: I think it's a good point.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: And Brian Murphy, who knew some pretty cold merciless people
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: over his career, said to me many times, and he
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: was very serious about this is a McCrae is pure
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: undistilled evil.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: And he must stay there. That was his view.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: He's now lately can't speak to that these days. But
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: I think it's a fair point you make, Noland. I'd
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: like to see maybe the people out there who knew
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: some of those girls, those women who supposedly died of
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: heroin overdoses, maybe they can come forward now to give
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: whatever evidence they know, to make sure the parole board
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: has full information, and there's a chance for some just
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: even if it's not more jail time, at least that
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: those victims, if they are victims, can be recognized and
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: given a voice in the process.
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, victims get a far greater voice than
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: we've ever seen before. And that is certainly not a
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: bad thing. It's not a criticism by any sense. It's
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: a compliment to the system how it's evolved, and it
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: should be that way. And as we've said, McCrae is
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: a very evil man. I think Brian Murphy got it
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: right in that respect.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: He is.
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: And he killed for the most for the weakest of reasons,
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: for profitable reasons, for commercial reasons known only to himself,
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: and he did so without regards to the family. And
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: there's nothing more pathetic than the girls that were working
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: in the parlors and on the streets. They were at
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: the end of the road and it was a terrible
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: indictment of our society. And then to have them exploited
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: in the way that they were prior to their deaths.
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: As soon as they used that they're they're used by
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: datas up, which is what they've seen. Let's face it,
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: Lamb and McCrae decided they're us. Lamb decided they're used
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: by date was up. So she had to go and
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: by him saying that to McCray. She then went another
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: overdose in a parlor. Man, I think I'm with you. No,
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: I think we'll leave him in there. I appreciate your time,
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: your memories in this one, mate, it's fantastic. Thank you
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: for that, Adam. And when I saw the post, originally
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: I thought just bring a light in the past and
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: poured together a lot of things and yeah, I deserved
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: coming back. And I stand with you and with those.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Who think let's give the parole board everything.
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: Mate, Yeah, go on, you knowl that's Noel Ashby, former
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: Assist Commission of Victoria Police, on the future of Alistair
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: Barqua McCrae. And I think that's a very good point
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: that Noel raises. We've got all these mysterious happenings from
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: the seventies and eighties heroin deaths that may well be murders,
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: and I'm sure there are people out there who can
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: give those victims a voice. And if there's any doubt
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: about the circumstances, if there's any suggestion McCrae was involved
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: or has information, he should stay exactly where he is.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: If you do know something, don't sit on it. And
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: it's a long time ago, but you can still give
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: those women a voice called crime Stoppers one hundred, triple three,
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: triple zero were You can email me and I'll pass
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: it on. Adam Shanner, writer atmail dot com love.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: To hear from.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: You can also follow me on Facebook send me missus
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: there if you want. But this has been having chat
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: for real crime. Thank you for listening.
• 34:19
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• 34:23
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