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Live Like You’re Dying: A Hospice Chaplain on Death and the Meaning of Life · the ACT OUT podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, Lee, how are you?
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, good morning.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: I am doing fabulous.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: How about yourself?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: I am doing really well.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: My uh my son is he's two.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: He'll be three in a few weeks.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he's been uh he's been out sick for uh for a while now, and today was like his first day back, so I am ecstatic.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I love kids, and I never got it when I was younger.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: My mom always said Mother's Day is the first day of school.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: I get it.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Love them to death, but they are the cutest things ever, but at the same time, they are like walking little biohazards with uh no survival instincts.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: It is the craziest thing.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Will you please uh kind of tell uh tell the audience uh who you are and what you do?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Lee Atherton, and hello everyone.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's great to be here with you all.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: I am an end-of-life and grief coach, a hospice chaplain.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, for many it's profound the work I do, and I never would have thought it could be until I did it, but to to just walk that journey with people as they the the phrase I like to use in describing it is as people live the final chapter of life.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then being having made connections with them, getting to know them with their family, supporting them at that end of lifetime, but then also having that foundation for sometimes being honored with leading their funeral or memorial service and being with the family afterwards to support them in the journey of grief.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a such a heavy uh you know profession.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I would imagine that it takes a special type of resilience to be able to do it.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what what got you into being kind of a grief counselor and chaplain?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a funny story.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: When I went back to school needing to get my master's degree, had to finish my bachelor's, and there was another woman there who was going into ministry also.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: She knew she wanted to be a hospice chaplain.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Over the years, we became close friends, and she kept saying to me, You really should think about being a hospice chaplain.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I kept telling her, You're crazy.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: There is no way on God's good earth I'm gonna do that work.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Fast forward to she had her job.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: I was in between jobs, and she was going away on an extended vacation and couldn't find someone to cover.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: She said, Will you do it?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: You're not working, it's short term.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: I said, All right, yeah, you know, I I can do that for you.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I just fell in love.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: It is amazing and profound work.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so I've been doing it for oh, almost 20 years now.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe that substitute chaplain is a thing.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: I would think that you would need like a special kind of like training in order to like kind of do that, like especially in that pivotal moment.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I had we each had our degrees in theology.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: We were both ordained as clergy people.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a lot of the background.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then I our work overlapped for a few months, you know, with all the training that I had to do for how to be with someone in chaplaincy in hospice.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: What was it like that very first time you were with someone at the time, like something that you were like, heck no, I'm never going to do this for a living.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I went out with Donna after doing all the in-house training.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: We spent probably about three or four days.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: I just followed her as we visited her patients and meeting people who were at different points, right?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: There was, I remember a gentleman, I he stands out because he was such a fan of the Red Sox, and so was Donna.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm not a sports follower, and I'm like, how would I connect with someone like this?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, he was alert and and we had great conversation to uh someone who was within days of death.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it was I think part of what struck me then, and I think is still a powerful reason that I'm in awe that I want to do this work is um two things.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, here are these people who don't know me from a hole in the wall, who are welcoming me not only into their homes, but into their lives at such a pivotal moment, such a deeply profound time of their life.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: However it was I got there, right?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: We can talk about being called and all that.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: The doors opened that this is where I am.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I just wow and to be in that space just amazing to me.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to put words around it.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: But then the the knowing that we're there to help someone the patient, the person who's dying, and their family.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the the fact that it can be that broader peace.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Help it be something other than this scary, cold, dismal hospital room where only two people are allowed and during certain hours or whatever, and the the cold sanitary atmosphere, but to help make it something peaceful.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that actually kind of brings me to my question.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: I this how do you get, or did you have to tell someone that they were kind of in their final days?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: And like how do you deliver that kind of news?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think in the hospice world, a big part of that is on the nurses.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: So they would they tend to be the ones that are saying it firsthand.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then myself as a chaplain, the social worker, others are following up on that.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes caregivers, the family, the people around have been watching the process going along and they're accepting of it.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: We always tell people that, you know, it looks like it might be a couple days if it goes according to average, and we always stress that's just average.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: But then there are there are loved ones who are in deep denial, and that's really hard.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And there have been times when I've been with people, and there's a great booklet that says if your loved one is experiencing this, then this is the next thing to expect, the physical aspect and even some of the emotional and spiritual, so we can tell them it's you know this many steps left.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've had people who, even with that very clear information, with us saying, no, look, he or she, your loved one isn't breathing very much anymore.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Their heart rate is slowing down, they're not responding to.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: This is your time to say goodbye, or like, no, no, no, he'll he'll recover.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And those are the hard ones that they just found it so difficult to say goodbye and let go.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: It well, it it shows how powerful the person who you know is about to pass on, uh, how big of a role that they had and the impact that you can make in your life.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's incredibly sad for the family.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: But then the other side of that coin is what a full life that that person must have lived if, you know, if if those around him are or those around them are that sad that they're passing.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: I try to not to negate the grief, not to negate the broken heart that they feel, but how can we take this time and celebrate who he was to you?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: How can you thank mom for the gift throughout life and on help those goodbyes?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: So for for me, a lot of my entire life, I was like, oh not entire life, but my entire adult life, I was like, I kind of feel like I am a kid impersonating an adult.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like this, I you know, I don't I don't feel like I'm this this isn't right.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: So a principal's gonna come and be like, sir, you need to get back to your class pretty soon.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: But what changed that for me was actually my mother-in-law.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: My mother-in-law, her name's Georgine, but uh I called her G.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: So like if I'm talking to and I say G, I mean my mother-in-law.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was very, very, very close with her.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer actually just like six months into uh Kalen and uh Kaylin and I dating.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: And um I remember we were there uh at Johns Hopkins for different surgeries, and uh we got her into um ultimately this was like 2018 or 2019.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: It was right uh it was after we got married, and our uh G got to see us get married and all.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we she was feeling really weak, and so what we did is like she she lived in New Jersey.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: G lived in New Jersey by herself, and so we knew that she wasn't gonna be able to take care take care of herself, so we'd need to get her in kind of a nursing care uh facility.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we did that, still like thinking that she was gonna be okay, she just needed to get like mended up and then she would be back.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we got on Valentine's Day, actually, we got a call saying that uh saying like something's just not right with her, like she uh she's just she's not answering very well, and she just kind of seems spacey.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we called the uh called the nursing home and they're like, yeah, it would probably be a good idea for you to come.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so we we lived in Georgia at the time, and I think that we got in the car at like six o'clock in the evening, and I drove straight to New Jersey from Georgia.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like 14 hours.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, as soon as we get out of the car, we have a we have a uh consultation with the palliative care nurse.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the way that the nurse explained it to us was that uh she had uh G has about a week left.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it was very blunt, but it was actually what we needed, and it was super helpful, and it got us kind of kind of got us to start doing our own research about like the death process.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh that's actually something I didn't even realize that there is an actual process to it.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: I just kind of thought it was like boom, it happened.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so we were with her for that last week and saw the the highs and the lows.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I I remember there was one, there was one time where um G did not like taking medicine.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: She didn't want to take she would take one 500 milligram Tylenol if she were hurting.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like she would she couldn't even take a thousand milligrams.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, nope, nope, I don't want that.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: I just I just want the 500.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh so but like she was hurting so bad with like all the like at that point cancer just like eaten up her entire insides.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: So like she would I think the nursing home finally gave her some morphine like the day before and she hated it.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: But that but that day she was she was so alert and not not in any pain, and she practically held court at that nursing home.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: People people came in that had worked with her and had been friends with her, and I mean she was just like you know, bringing them in, and I I'll I'll never forget this.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh she she was explaining a a Geico commercial, and it was as if she were pitching this commercial to Geiko, like we need to do this.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it was it was a wall like a walrus being a goalie or something in hockey and no pucks could get through.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And she was just so like happy about it after she uh said it, she's like, Yeah, that's I think that's my favorite uh commercial or Geico commercial.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Well, gee, what's your second favorite?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And just just like that, she's like, I always forget.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: That is one of my like just favorite memories of her.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I got a little sidetracked there.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: But the that night, someone who had seen her during the day was like, hey, so I think that there are things that could we could do, like maybe we could take her to Johns Hopkins because like it seems like there is there's there's some hope for the future.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if it hadn't have been for the palliative care uh person telling us, you know, like this is the you know, that this is it, and you know, it's kind of a process, we probably would have had hope, you know.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: But seeing that we knew that there was kind of a resurgence period and it would come back down.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess that is a very long-winded way of saying that there are a bunch of different styles of uh of working with people.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: In that uh in that moment.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: How long did it take you to be able to kind of find your sweet spot to be able to to you know work with folks and feel authentic?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's an interesting question.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: In some ways, with some patients, it was right away.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: That it just felt like I it was all just right.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yet I can also say that within the last year even, I've had patients that I feel like what am I doing wrong?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's just not working, whatever it is.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that sweet spot I think spiritually for me and feeling like I'm owning it, I think was early on because I felt very strongly that the affirmations I was getting, like this person Donna, who all for years kept saying you should be a hospice chaplain.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, there was something in that.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that when I started, I was getting affirmations that the outside world was saying, yes, this is where you belong.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I reference God.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: For me, that was God speaking through them.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I I was able to own that.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: But there throughout all the years, there have been patients where it just hasn't clicked.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Their personality and mine, they needed a different person to be there for them.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so part of the journey is recognizing when you're not the right person and saying, let me let my colleague come support you.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: You had brought up something that just now kind of hit me, but death is one of those things where probably one of the kind of foundations, the beginning of religion was to like give us a little bit of control over death.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: How do you keep your beliefs from kind of uh getting in the way of the other person, you know, the person who is uh dying?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: How does that kind of work out?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's very crucial that they don't know my beliefs.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Occasionally someone has asked me, and I'll answer honestly, but never will I come in and say, Oh, I believe in God or heaven or hell or any of those.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have to believe that.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: That is ethically horrendous.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we're taught that in school, in seminary, one of the it wasn't necessarily a course, but something we had to do was called Feel Dead, not Feel Dead, Clinical Pastoral Education.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And we spent a year at a setting.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: In my case, it was in an emergency room, and we were every little thing we did was looked over and criticized.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and one of those things was that we don't share our faith, that we don't make the person that or people that we're serving feel judged or expected that they need to believe what we believe.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and this kind of ties back into kind of what you're saying earlier about sometimes you have to realize that you aren't the right person for them.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: I can imagine that it is difficult in one sense because you may have you maybe talking to one person who is born and raised Catholic, and then the next person you speak to could be Hindu or, you know, like you, and for a G, for instance, was not religious, but spiritual.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I can I can imagine that you kind of have to, I don't want to say code switch necessarily, but have to talk about these terms in like super specific ways very differently depending on who you're speaking to.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's very true.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I love when I'm able to meet people earlier on in the process where I'm able to have conversations with them and say, tell me about your spirituality.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: What, you know, what is it for you so that I can learn their terminology and be able to use that as I go back and talk to them later down the road when it's at a one of those moments, right, where they're maybe questioning or they need reassurance that their God, their creator, their whatever it is for them, is there for them.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Are there what are the commonalities, like regardless of religious beliefs, between like each person that you see?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: What what are some of the things that everyone has in common?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Very often a fear of death, but a desire to say goodbye to the people they love, and forgiveness is one.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, reconciling relationships that are broken and receiving that forgiveness as well.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Those are some commonalities not wanting to be alone at the time of their death.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Although there are some people who absolutely want to be alone because they don't want their loved ones to have that experience.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then the the very often there's conversation, I don't want to say questioning, conversation about what happens after we die.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what happens after we die?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: You can't can't just give what do you tell someone though, like whenever whenever they ask you that?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't tell them I explore what their beliefs have been throughout life and then have conversation about what it feels like for them now.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we explore, and again, it's it it it depends who the patient is, but some patients have wanted to hear what do other people believe.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that then I'll bring in some other beliefs and we'll have a conversation about what feels right.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a lot of it comes to what feels right.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Never mind what I've been told, although sometimes that's informative, but I've seen people when they hear other perspectives are like, no, that you know, maybe maybe a Catholic person who has been taught that there's a hell before heaven or purgatory, um, and then hearing other perspectives, whether that's a Buddhist perspective that there's reincarnation in some form, or a Protestant still still Christian, but not believing in the heaven and the purgatory, but that God loves us all and um we're welcomed into a peaceful kingdom.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think that feels right.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um I did have a nun one time, and this was fascinating.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I we talk about levels of pain and pain relief.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: So there are medications that we can give at the end of life that will take away the pain, and that can be physical, spiritual, emotional pain.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: But to do that often means they the patient will.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: lose their ability to be awake and alert and with their loved ones.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: So again, I love when we can get in early on so that we can what what do you want?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Some people say, no pain at all.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do whatever's necessary.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: I had a nun who said, don't give me any pain medication because Jesus suffered and died on the cross for me.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: I need to suffer for him.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so what are all those different perspectives?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: That yeah that that's so interesting.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually thinking of uh Mother Teresa uh whenever you said that where uh you know like a lot of her beliefs were that suffering brought you closer to God.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't think about that in the context of dying.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: But you would think uh that you know if you could ever have like you know what one freebie you're like when you're dying it's gotta be it.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: What is what would you say is the most difficult aspect of your job watching someone die without something being resolved I can certainly imagine that.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: You were saying before that with the commonalities that people have like at reconciliation or figuring everything out.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Does getting those things kind of aid them in letting go, so to speak, in your experience?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think so I think so I obviously there's no way to answer this question, but how much power do we have over when we die?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh a lot more than I think people realize it's wow right so I had an aunt who was a nun and ever since she was a child she said I want to die on Saint Whoever's day it was she lived into her 80s and um although she was elderly and frail there was no indication that she was near death but on the morning of Saint Whoever's and I don't remember the Saint they found her having died overnight right but then there are also people I see people hang on so much longer than like we'll look at them and think why haven't you died?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: What's keeping you here?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then someone shows up or they hear a voice on the phone you know sometimes people can't show up so we say let them talk and and then they're able to let go.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Something that I I wouldn't be able to to accept as easily if I hadn't seen it so many times.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah oh I'm sorry.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Or everyone's in the room people are coming and going taking their turns being with someone and we say why haven't they let go and then there comes a moment where for some reason everyone is out of the room the one who's that's watch duty so to you know that use that phrase has stepped out to go to the bathroom and all of a sudden the person dies amazing to see with uh so Kaelin's uh Kaylin's mom passed uh I think uh February 21st and oh just recently no no in 2019 sorry oh okay all right uh and so from I think oh February 21st then we got a call your mother on the uh yeah yeah sorry uh sorry uh I I sometimes forget that not everybody is in my brain and uh I knew exactly where I was at immediately.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah so uh whenever Kalen's mom G passed away in February of 2019 uh we got a call about four or five weeks later that uh G's dad was uh dying and so then we had to pack everything up and go from New Jersey to Ohio for uh six weeks and for him uh he he had a uh he had a girlfriend he was 98 and his and his girlfriend was 97 about to turn 98 and he I think we were uh we were there for I think two weeks and he would been put on code reverence which it was like we were we were told that he wasn't even going to make it to like when we could drive from New Jersey to Ohio and then he held on for a week and uh we were I we were trying everything like he had served in in World War II so at one point I was like Sergeant Lucy this is Colonel Tomlin missing complete sir you know like maybe that maybe that's it I nothing uh it was going through just trying like everything yeah and finally uh on um on his girlfriend's birthday uh we were having like a little birthday party and literally right after we sang happy birthday to to her he passed and yeah that that blew my mind so whenever I was asking you that that power like you know how much power do we have over you know our diet process that was he Chuck was who I was thinking of at that point.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah it's unreal isn't it wow do you uh with with Chuck he would kind of uh you know like reach out for someone you know that like wasn't there um a lot like is that is that something common in uh in dying like kind of uh like hallucin hallucinations very common what do you what do you think that is this is a conversation my husband and I have at times he's a psychologist so he's very in the brain what's going on right and he says it's I would love to be a flower on the wall in these conversations he'll talk about it's the brain cells dying and what's going on scientifically although where does the line of science fall I um maybe that's true but I also I don't disbelieve the fact that they may be seeing someone and I say that because I've been with some people at that moment.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: My mom had cancer and at one point she almost died her blood pressure dropped and all that and they were able to resuscitate her but afterwards she said oh my god that was the most beautiful thing I saw everyone.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: So right what obviously her brain wasn't dead and then my dad I saw her with him um and he died after my mom and we had talked I don't know what the song was my adult daughter had found a song that talked about dancing in heaven with the one that you love and he had found great solace in that knowing that he would dance with her we talked about what that might be like he had been um non responsive for two days and I was in the room the hospice aid was there and he said you know it looks I think this might be the moment and as I said he had been unresponsive and he opened his eyes and he looked over to the corner of the room look the light is shining on my face as I say this wow looked over eyes wide open I said dad do you see mom and he shook his head and I said go dance with her now's the time and he just got one of the biggest grins on his face and he exhaled and that was it so what which is it right I have chills well I have a long sleeve short but I it's it's it's it's unbelievable how things like that can happen.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the science part of me I kind of you know I probably would be a little bit more on your on your husband's side but having experienced those G passing and then Kaelin's grandpa passing, you know, within like I think it was just six weeks of each other their process was just remarkably similar.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Chuck's was a little bit longer but both of them had kind of it it seemed like uh would would be like they would kind of talk to people sometimes uh that you know weren't that weren't there and it was it was both of them and so it was it was that's just so so fascinating to me.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever you said that you've had to do uh some like funeral services or end of life celebrations as well.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Funerals end of there's a number of words for them.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well there's I mean for me though they're almost completely different things.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um so whenever whenever we did a memorial service for G, what we did is we we had a party.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was in kind of a conference room and we had a we had like a buffet and I think there was an open bar or something and we ate and then afterwards people would get up and just tell stories of just you know like different things.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it was so it was so amazing because it was like we had people that were like I remember whenever we were five years old sledding down the hill and then we had like high school and college and being adult like you had you had a full life and it was so it was so good there.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think that like actually helped with our grieving process.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then juxtaposed that with uh Kaelin's grandpa who bless his heart he had already designed his funeral like this is the way it's gonna be and uh we were like we were in a mausoleum and like everything was just very very formal.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: I personally prefer the end of life celebrations.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: But uh can you kind of have you had experiences with kind of both types of celebrations?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely have from the very very formal to like your mother in law right I tell everyone have something that's what matters.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to have that moment of goodbye and since COVID a lot of people are saying oh we don't need to do anything but there's it affects how we grieve we don't have that moment of I don't know that reality is the best word but that coming together and that formally saying goodbye letting go there it's an important part of grieving.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I go ahead I was going to ask you if you could kind of get a little bit into the grief process and does that look the same for everyone and no and if you're in the midst of it how can you how can you get help?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: It does not look the same for everyone in that I think that is one of the most important things for your listeners to be aware of that it's different for everyone that there's no like Elizabeth Kube la Ross and her steps of grief those are important steps of grief but she never meant for them to be understood as first you do this, then you do this, right?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I often talk about whitewater rafting or a whitewater river.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's seen a river that's going 90 miles 90 million miles an hour.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've experienced riding on a whitewater river it is you're hanging on for dear life you have no idea what's coming up next one minute you're ducking the next minute you're shifting over here and that's what grief is like you never know you have to go through it.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: And for some people it's oh I didn't grieve a whole lot at all and for some people it's devastating and difficult and am I ever going to make it through you do come to that moment of still water where you're just resting in peace.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: And how to get help it's so again different for everyone know that there's support out there for you.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Know that the support can be as a grief coach can be a mental health clinician which people tend to shy away from because I don't want to say I'm bad, I'm wrong.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: But it is okay to say I need some help someone to talk to about this letting your friends and family in as you're able to and knowing that it's okay to not be okay.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: In fact there's that's a title of a book It's okay to not be okay.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: I can so for me I think the I think one of the most difficult things whenever I was going through the grief process was I very much uh was thinking of it in the steps for him like okay I'm gonna fill this I'm gonna do bargaining then I'll be in denial or you know whatever the thing was and man if I could just get to to the end of the day and be depressed then I know that I've done something I'll be better tomorrow.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: But there would be there would be days where I would be absolutely fine.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it it not it really was nothing would happen but then uh there was there was one time where I saw a Geico commercial and like just lost it.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like what in the world is wrong with me I've I've already done all that crying stuff.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah nothing's wrong with you it happens that way.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the best analogies that I have heard that I've seen was that like you you draw a a a small square and a really big circle inside of that square.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: And every time the circle touches one of the corners or it touches the square then that's kind of your grief hitting you know like and so whenever whenever that circle is really big compared to the square it's going to get hit a lot.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: But as time goes on your square is going to get a little bit bigger and the circle gets a little bit smaller.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's not to say that that circle isn't going to hit the edge of the square at some point.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't happen as often.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the circle never completely goes away which it's kind of the what we're talking about earlier with the two different ways of looking at it.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it stinks that that's never gonna weigh going to go away and that there's going to always be something that's gonna remind me of gee and then I'm gonna be crying for you know you know it's gonna be it's um not quite a decade.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's been seven years now.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know so uh I'm like oh my gosh that's it stinks seven years later and I'm still upset about it.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: But on the other token or the on the on the other side of that I had someone who I felt so close to and meant so much to me that even after they were gone for years and years they're still having an impact on me.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think so maybe the tears are worth it.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right and it and it doesn't necessarily or it isn't necessarily always tears.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: It might be just a wow I miss that person.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know when when does your job end?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is it whenever the person passes or do you do you help the family like what what what goes on?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: In a perfect world I'd still be there with the family helping them it ends when the folks on the receiving end feel like it's ended for them.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes from my perspective I might say yeah I don't know that you're really ready for this to be over the grief process perhaps but if they feel like they're at the end then okay what is more difficult for you helping uh some hel helping the individual go through the process of dying or helping the family go through the process of grief which is more difficult sometimes I think the process of grief is more difficult because I'm fighting the battle of the world saying you should be over this already.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you still crying?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and there's there's that finality with with the individual that they're that's not there with the family.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: That the family is going to have to be there and pick up the pieces and have the try to make something of those pieces for years and years.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is uh n this is such a heavy conversation for us to have in the morning Can I share a story with you oh yes please what makes it it's some of the stories uh along with that as I mentioned in the beginning that wow you're welcoming me into your home that keeps me going but also um stories like this one that just oh thank you that I was able to be there and help make this happen.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: There was a young man uh early 40s I don't remember if he was 41 42 Christmas he felt fine he was partying with his friends having a great time by New Year's Day he was admitted to the hospital and diagnosed with stage four bone cancer.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: It had been going on he hadn't been aware of it he was put on hospice services and he went into a nursing home that's where I met him my hospice team someone that young right it was hard to go in and chat with him.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: But through our conversations I learned that he had two young adult children 19 and 20 with whom he hadn't spoken in a number of years uh a difficult divorce I also learned that he had a favorite author since he was a little kid and still liked reading this guy's books.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you know we always ask what are your hopes for the time you have left and he said I want to go fishing one more time.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: So those were three big things for him and um so we met him in January and he died in May or end of May early June somewhere around there.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: So over this time I was able to connect with that favorite author who what are the chances but the guy's mother lived in the same town that my patient was in hospice in and he said listen I'll come up and visit my mom and while I'm there I'll stop in and meet him wow so that happened I uh it took a while but I found his children I was able to facilitate a meeting between the three of them I can't believe I still get so emotional about it.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway where they talked they were able to say I forgive you and I love you to each other and by the end of it his daughter said I can't let you die in a nursing home will you come home and live with me oh wow and then just days before he died we this wasn't me doing so much but the rest of the team got an ambulance together and found a place and got someone to help push the wheelchair and we got him his final right I was gonna ask you what the most rewarding part of your job was but there is no way there's anything other than that.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: So right?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: And when we can do that that's what keeps me going let me let me give someone what they want for end of life.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let me find a way to make that happen.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's what keeps me going.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: I you may be semi-psychic because I was gonna ask you before what the most rewarding part was and then you answered it.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was about to ask you my goodness what was the last thing you just said whatever I can do to make that happen for someone else?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah okay well whatever it was you had yeah you you had answered another question I was about to ask but it it impressed me so much that I forgot what it was.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that's funny.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh what do you see as your ultimate responsibility?
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: That was what I was going to ask you.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: To be for someone who they need me to be can you elaborate a little bit Yeah, to set me aside.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: And whatever my expectations for a visit or a whole relationship with someone might be, and just be fully present so that I can this is hard to explain.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: To be fully present, so I can just listen to all my senses open to them so that then I can give to them from that.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if that makes sense.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: It did to me.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: That that's an incredibly powerful gift to be able to give somebody.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: I can uh so I just I I can imagine that this feels like a very, very rewarding career for you.
• 45:08
  unknown: Yeah.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not when I'm doing that the best I can, it's not just me going in and being with that person.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so I come from a Christian tradition and my I've been very opened through all of the experiences I've had to my way is one of the ways to live life and and understand that which is beyond our understanding.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: But from who I am, is it God that comes into that visit with me?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the Holy Spirit?
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is it something that we can't explain?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: But when I'm my best at doing that, I leave some visits sometimes saying, What just happened?
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: Where did those words come from?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Words are coming that, you know, and that's what makes that happen.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's different for everyone who might explain that, but yeah, so my responsibility is to be who they need me to be and to be open to whatever that is.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: That is a huge responsibility, and I can imagine that that is a lot for you, just in how you were describing, in order to be able to do that responsibility, you have to be completely open, you know, like fully present.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: That would have to take a lot out of you.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I can imagine that it's difficult for other people as well.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you cope and how do you kind of wind down after, you know, a day like that?
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh self-care is huge, is huge in in not just my role, but all of us who are helpers.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's my dogs.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: I have a service dog, so he knows me pretty darn well and takes good care of me.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's being out in my gardens and good weather, a hot bubble bath sometimes, or just being with a friend and laughing.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's you I I think you are psychic because I was literally I was gonna I was gonna ask you, what is a complete life?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just gonna say that I think that you have a um a career that you are extremely passionate about.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: And uh you've you've got a got a great self-care routine where you're out with your garden, you're being you're you know, you're like with nature, you're pretty it seems like having a complete life is kind of what you were describing.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what you would say?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: I feel pretty complete.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is that has your kind of defin definition or goals, I don't really know the right way of saying this, like how you would define a complete life, has that changed from before you started working or before you started this career to now?
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: I would say so.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: And how so that it's I think I find myself expressing feeling and expressing a lot more gratitude day to day because I'm so aware of how life can change in an instant being clear for myself about what's really important in life and surrounding myself with those things or people that are important, and it's more people for me.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I yeah, uh giving up in some ways, giving up the big house, the nice car.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care about those.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: I care about having my Thursday with my grandchildren that's dedicated just to them.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: I care about having my community of friends and letting them know I care about you and I want to spend time with you, even if it's just hanging out and having a cup of coffee.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: That makes a lot of sense.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: I one of my one of my final questions, I'm I'm not gonna uh uh you know hold myself to that necessarily.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever whenever you're talking to folks uh and they're talking about things that they want to do or they're they're talking about happy things, how many people bring up how much they have in their 401k or how many square feet their house is?
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: None.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: What do people talk about?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like what uh is there is there a commonality with like what has meant the most to people?
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: Relationships and life experiences.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what's what's what I wish a lot more people could do, would do, is live life from that perspective.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of I only have a month of life left.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: What really mattered in life?
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: Be aware of it throughout life, because I think that brings us more contentment, um, joy.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, and it's uh it's it's also a lot more tangible as well.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you're chasing uh if you're chasing like a fancy cars and a whole bunch of money, those things to a very, very large extent are outside of your control.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: But the things that you have more control over are your relationships with yourself, your family, community, etc.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: Seems like if we're takeaway is to concentrate on some of the things that you have more control over and not worry so much about the things that you don't have control over that aren't even going to play that big of a role in the grand scheme of things.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: Every once in a while I can just drop a wisdom bomb like that and you know.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: Way to go.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: Lee, I have had so much fun.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: This has been this has been.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've enjoyed it.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: If oh yeah, forgot.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: Where can folks find you?
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: If they if if they want to, do you have like a website or anything you need to promote?
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a website, you w dot forgetting.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: The dot duh.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh coachrev.com.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: So life coach rev.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: Coach like a life coach, Rev shortforreverend.com.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I always say that's just my website.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: Don't let the word reverend scare you away.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or my email, Lee at coachrev.com.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I would love to hear from folks.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: What are your questions?
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: What are your wonderings, your hopes, your dreams?
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: Lee, thank you so much for acting out with me.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: I have appreciated it.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've enjoyed it.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: This has been great.