Latest / Coconut Justice / CJP #92: Deborah Anderson

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CJP #92: Deborah Anderson · Coconut Justice

• Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Hey, what's good? Deborah Anderson is a 3D modeler, a teacher, a speaker, YouTuber, journalist, and thought leader. She's worked on projects like Family Guy, Cleveland Show, Scooby-Doo and the LeBrons. Her YouTube channel is where she highlights animation professionals and shares everything animation. This is my conversation with animation industry veteran Deborah Anderson. Before we get into it, Remember to go to coconutjustice.com to get you some clothes that I think would look good on you. Let's go. Animator Extraordinary Deborah Anderson is who Hey girl Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Hello. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): How you doing? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Good, how is you? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I'm good. And you know what's funny is now that you say that, it took me all the way back to when I was living in the Midwest, I don't know how many years ago, but Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): and everyone was talking about trying to make Ebonics like a proper language or an accepted language, whatever, whatever, and Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): all the white folks were losing their minds. And now everyone's like, ain't this and is that it Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, it's kinda weird. 'Cause like with the with the with the social media like it's it's it's becoming like a global culture that we have now because of the internet and social media and then everybody's choosing like blackness for their culture. And yeah, I always tell people whether they're my people or other people about like 'cause are you familiar with like AA V E, that term now? It's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): A A B E Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: African American vernacular English. And so that's what people say these days and I'm like, actually I'ma keep I'ma I'ma say Ebonics because that time, like there's the time back in the nineties where in Northern California they were trying to get this Ebonics to be, you know, a language in schools and use it to like a like English as a second language essentially and like use it for like kids, like black kids in the in the kind of Bay Area or the Northern California area. And that's when the term Uvonix was kinda disparaged was like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: when they were trying to do that. And then I don't know when A B came around, like maybe s seven years ago. I mean it's probably been around for a long time, but in the in the s in among normal people, not academics, I feel like it's been like ten years or I don't know, but Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I'm like, I'm a rebel with a cause and so I'm like, yeah, I'ma just use Evonics. I don't wanna use A V E. That seems like the buttoned up version. And then people and then because like you're you're you're raising children in like the suburbs and all this stuff, so don't know their culture like that. So then like the people will try to be like like our people will try to be like, well, Ebonics is slang and A A V E is the dialect. I'm like, they're synonyms. What are you even talking about? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: What yeah, like why do y'all learn everything? Y'all learn everything from the internet. Why are y'all not ch teaching y'all children? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And stop com yeah, stop making things so Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Teach our chairman's the history. Why are you trying to make all the yellow this is Ebonix is playing in A V is the dialect? Ebonix is the dialect. What are you talking about? It was called Black English Ebonix. It's it's all the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And why all the hate? Because like at the end of the day, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): white folks talk like that too. So just because we just because we we point out the fact that this language is a little toasted now all of a sudden is like a you know, is a bad word or something? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: The the the most th the thing that is funny when I go like s watch social media videos is is like black people realizing like So y'all ta y'all talked about us using X this whole time and the origins was in like the the Ir Ireland or like somewhere in in Europe somewhere Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and that was the original i it was actually originally Axe and then y'all changed to Ask? What Please see what you're doing. like about when like British people be talking about like the King's English and like the original. I'm like actually there like if you think of like Shakespeare, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: there's a dialect somewhere in like the Philadelphia area that is probably closer to what Shakespearean actors were using more than anything Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: in England because they made that shit up at some point in time. Like we were English I mean not we. I mean part of maybe two percent like 10% of me, we were English. You know, cause slavery. but you know, they came over and they were English and so they Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: spoke and then at some point I don't know what decade they were like the the Brit the the the queen and stuff was like, We gonna just change all this stuff and then y'all start talking like them to be like them. So it's not actually that we speak this American English. Y'all speak some stuff y'all made up some decades later. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Or centuries maybe, I don't know. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Let's remember, let's remember the tinted folks, well, some of us, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I have, you know, I've I I have my bloodline comes from around these parts. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): But black folks got picked up in Africa. They weren't speaking English. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: vamos lá. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): So all this, all this stuff that that folks are like arguing about and being all fucking petty about, yeah, that's you guys' shit. And let's remember Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): this all came when you guys were pooping and peeing in a jar and tossing it out the window. So if you wanna if you wanna start pointing fingers and seeing who's who and what's what, like let's let's put it all on the table. Let's take a look at the cards. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: The craziest thing for me is the is the term civilized. Like so di what y'all did was civilize? Alright, got it. Destroy Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: destruction? That's civilized. Alright. You destroyed Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: the irrigation systems of the Mayans, the Incas, and the Aztecs. And like you destroyed everything. I just like watching Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like Black Planter and in you know the concept of Wakanda, it's like, dang, what what the world have been if y'all didn't destroy everything? 'Cause it was so advanced that, you know, they just didn't like it and it's like we could be so much further. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Right, because we're on the same trajectory as the folks from ancient Egypt. We're on that same timeline. It's not like it was ancient Egypt and then a asteroid hit and killed everybody except two, three people. You know what mean? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): So they were advanced, they had education, they had plumbing, they had all the things, and then And then it just seems like what is it? I saw a post that said people of color create all this cool stuff and white folks always put the regulators on it. So like yeah. Like we created what was it? We created Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Or aliens 'cause the pyramids are so so they can't figure it out, so it's like, it had to be aliens. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): we created the car and white folks created the speeding ticket. It's stuff like that. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, I was just telling somebody that the other day. I was like, Garrett Morgan made the traffic light and white people made the traffic ticket. Lewis Latimer Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: created the the filament for the for the light bulb and they created light bulb. So it's I w in my conversation that I had the other like the other day, I was like, We Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): They created the light bell, yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: need to think about how to make money from our own stuff. It's always the other people who make think about how to make money. We just we just be creating because that's how we are. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. 'Cause it because it's the been to the benefit of society. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm hmm. And that's what people don't really think about like when black people were the workers, of course they're inventing stuff to make their lives easier. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, we're working. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So like, yeah, I'm gonna make it like a shovel or like not not shovel, but like what some some type of apparatus. The cotton gin. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. I when I was a kid, yeah, for real. When I was a kid, my dad, my dad's from Cuba. And so in northern Illinois, there was just a lot of Cubans. A lot, you know, relatively. But Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): and they the we all moved to Rockford, which is about an hour away from Chicago, because there was a automotive plant, Chrysler automotive plant there, right? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): So my dad's friend, childhood friend, they were best friends from like they grew up in Cuba together, type of type of Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Okay. Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): situation, right? This dude created something. He noticed that there's this particular job that people were doing, that they put their hand in and then they Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): pull their hand out, fingers missing this stuff, right? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): So he invented something that went in and did this job. And he made his money, you know. But that's it. Like When you're doing the work and you're missing f limbs and fingers and dumb stuff like that, like you're gonna be you're gonna be creative. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And and that's the other thing about like this global culture that we're creating because of the internet and technology is like if you think of New York City and like Tim's and North Face and that became like hip hop. It's like but they were cold in New York City. That's why it was function that was hip Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: hop. Like it was like we wearing these Tim's because we don't want our f toes to freeze and we're wearing North Face's because it's cold as heck. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So yes, this is stylish, but this is also function. And that's why, you know, people in Los Angeles, they like right. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Like you don't need Tim's you don't need Tim's in in Zimbabwe, like Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, like that's why in Los Angeles they wear like beaters and like you know, shorts or something because it's hot. Like So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: it's like, yes, there's like these regional styles, but I feel like the younger people, because they kind of grow. on the internet and not from their parents actually teaching them stuff and and not from being in community. There's not this like knowledge base of like, yes, we did this because we had to even like with the millennials when like we we had to go to the club and business casual because of racism. Cause they wouldn't let us wear like jerseys. Like we weren't like, yeah, we about to wear a blouse and a skirt. Like they were Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: racist. That's why we did that. If we were if it was a college party we wore regular clothes, but if we were going to the club Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: we had to dress in business casual or we wouldn't get let in. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All the backpack rappers think that they did something. No, no, no, no. They just didn't let us in. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Right. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Kanye in his polo. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: you don't talk to people like about Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: even like there was something that went viral like something maybe five to seven years ago and it you know when you say five to seven years it could actually could have been longer because time is a construct but like the the younger people were started had having their like Y two K parties where they dress up like us in like the two thousands and then they are doing it wrong and then arguing with us about what we wore. I was like, what is happening? That's not what we wore Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I was there stupid. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and how are you like like Like you weren't there. Like wh how are you arguing with us? So yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Gotta love social media and technology destroying our society. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. So tell the folks where you grew up. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: grew up on the east side of Detroit, Michigan, Mac and Casu. So for real, I'm from Detroit. Like I'm not from Lavonia or like South or Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: something like that. and I grew up I went to Hanstean Elementary. And so that I grew up till like I was nine and then we my mom moved us to New Orleans for a little bit and then I moved back to Michigan with my dad and Romulus. If you ever been to the Detroit Metropolitan Airport, you're in Ronless. Gateway to the world. so that's where I went to like middle school and high school. So that's where it gets interesting of like claiming Detroit 'cause I'm like I'm from Detroit, but I went to high school in because you know, high school is like a big thing of like the determining factor. And I'm like, if I w Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like my d my p my mom went to Castech, they I w I just watched a different world and they the obligatory mention of like Castech, I was like, they're gonna be they already are insufferable 'cause it's like one of the best high schools in Detroit. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: but I'm like, yeah, they mentioned Castech 'cause like when you travel and it's like, I'm from Detroit, like, Castech, I'm like, How do you know that? Because they're like very proud. It's like being from New York City. Like they're very proud of being from like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: going to Cas Tech. So my mom, my s my older sister, my niece, like Went to Castech, Diana Ross, David Allen Greer, so it's like a really good school. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Nice. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so yeah, I like I went to school I went to hand school in Ryan Wheels, but still Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Thank you. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: we're Detroit burst everybody? What up though? I still rep the city. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. That's i i Chicago, whether or not they like it, I'm still not convinced that they like it, but I do rep Chicago hard as hell, boy. That's Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): where that's where I'm from. That's who built me. You know. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes. 'Cause like when I think about 'cause there was a culture in Runless of like, you know, this neighborhood and this that neighborhood, but when I think about like what neighborhood did I live in 'cause the little nicknames, I'm like I don't remember. I don't I'm Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like, okay, behind McDonald's was the arches. There was like this, that but I'm like, it wasn't my culture. I just lived there. And so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: the fact that I don't remember a lot of this stuff, I'm like, okay, does that I also have a You know, sometimes I have power open memory. That's neither here nor there. But if the fact that I don't remember it, isn't that enough for me to feel like? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Right. My birth certificate says Chicago, shut up. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, I was born at Grace Hospital. I was actually on TV. I got proof. 'cause me and my Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I'm from I'm from Chicago. I'm so old I'm from Chicago the hospital that I was born in don't even exist anymore. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. My both my both my elementary schools don't exist anymore. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Edgewater Hospital. Shout out Northside, son. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Both my elementary schools don't exist anymore. One was taken by Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans and the other one was taken when they closed over two hundred schools in Detroit, like in twenty ten or something. I don't know. So I was like, I can't visit neither one of my teachers. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. What was it like spending time in in because going from Detroit to New Orleans, that's that's a hell of a change. Not to mention New Orleans Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): is basically underwater, under like sea level. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: It's a bowl, yes. So hurricanes. I don't know I don't I don't know if I remember hurricanes from the two and a half years I stayed there. The distinctive things I remember is like, we were very sheltered so I didn't get out much but like on the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Me too. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: bus the school like we I got to hear the music 'cause we also weren't allowed to listen to secular music so I I heard most of that stuff on the bus and stuff like that. I made my first t mixtape in in New Orleans, where I would like s had to s go sneak and take a cassette tape in in my Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Did you make it for yourself or did you make it for somebody? Cause that was a mixtape could set up a relationship back in the day. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: no, I mean I the the the high yes. It was for me to sneak in like and one of the songs was Genuine Pony, so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): boy. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and I'm like tr you know you're trying to wait for the like DJ to stuff to shut up talking and stuff like record and play at Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Will you come on? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: the same time. so yeah, I I made it for myself because I couldn't listen to, you know, secular music. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Was your mom was your mom religious or was she just trying Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): to protect you? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: No, she was religious. I mean she w I guess she was also tired of sex, but yeah, she was like we went to church all the time. That the Norna's was like, can w can I like can we stay home? And so I would like make dinner for my twin brother and my older brother. My older brother's special needs, so I was like, Yes, we can stay home. I I'll cook for y'all. another distinctive I remember another distinctive thing I remember is like the different way they talk, so like My the words like orange, turlet and aura. Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Nollens. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: yeah, so like Q R S. I was like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Aura. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: mm-hmm. And then apparently when I came back when I moved back to Michigan, I my stepmom was like I was switching too much. I was like, I'm just walking then. I don't know how I'm walking. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Sick with stick with A A V E, damn it. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. So like yeah, I'm just like, but it was good times, Kincake. that's kinda Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: why I moved back there after New Orleans. I was like, for the sun and king cake. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, that switching, that code switching thing. That's that's crazy. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: No more. I meant like when you when you're like hips are switching. She was like, I was I was switching too much. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): okay. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Okay. So you groan. You act and groan. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, I'm like a nine year well, when I move back I'm like twelve. But like I'm like bruh, I don't know how I'm I don't I can't see my I was I was getting it through osmosis like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, because I I remember that was a thing when I was growing up, the girls the girls couldn't like if if they acted like they were upset, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): whatever, and they put their hand like, girl, get your hand off your imagination. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah Yes. I was moving my imagination too much. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): dinner's over with. Stop it. Get back to church. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm hmm. Yeah, so but yeah, it was good times. Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's pretty crazy though. Yeah. And then d everybody, she's an animator. I think we already talked about that, but Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Professionally I'm a 3D modeler. I go by Black Woman Animator because though nobody know what a modeler is, if you're a regular person. So it's like my Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, that's true, huh? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: when I created my moniker, I was like, you know, in two thousand eight, I was like, all right, I want to get more black and brown kids and girls into animation. What is Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: what would be like, ooh, let me talk to her. So like black woman animator. I'm like, Black woman animator. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Straight to the point. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: 'Cause if I did black women modelers, like, you do the runway, like your Tyra Banks, like, no, like, bruh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, yeah, yeah, for real. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I mean I could, but Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I was very skinny and I'm 5'9, so it was Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: possible. I just like when people used to say that, even though I was like really skinny, I'm like, if I was trying to become a model, I would actually have to probably lose weight. That's my always my thought. I'm like, I know I'm like real thin, but like the way they work, I'm like, I'll probably be overweight. So I never pursued it. Mac and cheese. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I know. I know. And we just got done talking about your grandmother's mac and cheese. So all that's out the window. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And that's like growing up with my mom, I didn't have Kraft mac and cheese till I was like actually till I moved to Los Angeles in twenty twenty. 'Cause like I sta I I I rented like a Airbnb like a room out of somebody's house and Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and they were there. And so I had to keep like a lot of my stuff in my room, my groceries, and so that's when Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I was eating a lot of processed stuff. And so that was like actually the first time I had like craft 'cause my mom would like make real food. Like she made a breakfast for us like every like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: we we were the type where we had cereal on the weekend 'cause she would make like bacon, eggs, and biscuits every day for breakfast and then like we had Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): snap. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like a real food every day. I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: didn't like even like when people talk about like eating spaghetti every day, like we had like whether the so Southern cooking that my Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: grandma taught her, it was delicious. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): trying to remember cause when we grew up we didn't there no well, this is back in the day, back, you know, in the seventies before like when everybody still was home and Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mhm. Yeah, I yeah, I'm prime time. Like, I could have grew up with ramen. I could've grew up with cra that's my generation, but no. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Like I didn't have ramen till I didn't even have ramen in college. I 'cause when I was broke I ate oatmeal for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I was like, this is I gave my fiber. I don't know. I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: just I I don't I don't even know when I had ramen for the first time. But I well did have ramen in New Orleans so th they would they would do the thing where they would break up the packet, they would break it up and then put the seasoning packet and eat it like chips. So that's but I never like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. That's the move. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: cooked ramen until I was like grown 'cause Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I just ate real food. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That was one time. That was one time we had ramen and my grandmother was over, my mom's mom was over, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): and she didn't believe in eating out, she didn't believe in eating that prepackaged stuff, none of that stuff. So she's Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): making ramen and she's like starting to cut up onions and she's like putting in carrots and shit. I'm looking at my brother, he's looking at me like, What the fuck is happening here? She's ruining it. We told after that, we told Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): her, hey, you gotta take the day off. You can't be coming in here ruining a ramen. She goes. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: That's funny, she was putting real vegetables in there. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): What are you doing? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: It's funny being from like like non mainstream cultures 'cause like like I I actually this isn't my story, but I hear other people like they wanted to like have the Dunkaroos or d you know, like they wanted to like their like white classmates were bringing like lunchables or something and like they were jealous. I'm like I don't that wasn't my s minus that wasn't my story. Like I was just like, I'm getting real food. Or I g or I just buy the like I for well in high school I only ate school lunch the first day and determined that it that wasn't for me and then I just either starved for the rest of high school or like they had a we had a little Caesars across the street and so we had like these different class like classes that would like teach like business or entrepreneurship or something like that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so that class would like go across the street and get like maybe twenty boxes of pizza. And so we like rushed to lunch and like see if I could get a couple slices. Other than that I would just starve in high school, like 'cause I'm not eating Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: school lunch. So, you know, people they they I saw somebody on TikTok, they bought something from some online where they got the like school pizza and they bought Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: it as an adult. I'm like, that is that is nostalgic for y'all. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Enjoy enjoy not pooping for two weeks. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. I'm just like I just I just couldn't do it. And I was a finicky kid, so you think, you know, the basics of like school lunch was actually my jam, but like no. I just that Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): No. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: first day I just was like, I don't wanna do this. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, yeah. This is dumb. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I would Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: rather starve. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): At what point did you find out that you were interested in being an animator? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: just was telling somebody I mentor like just today like I did not have the same journey as my peers which sometimes it was like was I slow 'cause like my my peers were like watched Aladdin or watched Lanking like how do you do that or da da but like I drew like I had my little VHS tapes that I like would draw from or like my dad my mom brought us like these Disney books and my dad draws, and he says he taught me how to draw. I I was you know, I was two or something. I don't know. I believe him. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: My 'cause my I I have a cousin that says that he taught me how to draw too, so I was like I wrote with my dad, I guess. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): All right. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and so I drew like I would people would thought I traced and so drawing from reference was my jam. Like I drawing from my head Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: that wasn't I was like 'cause I have this like dancing clown in my head that I can never get to the page. I'm like, this dancing Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: clown is is is torque. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It's haunting me. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: me because it just never looked how it looked in my head and so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I went I was also good at very good I was smart and I was very good at math. So I that Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: wasn't even my like I hate math like nah like when I was in eighth grade and we got protractors, I was like in algebra or something, I would like draw angles on my page and like find the angle for fun. Like So like math was my jam. I just I just got a app. I just took up math as a hobby like a c like last year, there's like this brilliance.org app and so I just like do math every day Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: 'cause I'm like I kinda miss it. I was gonna get the workbooks but I'm like, apps, yeah. But like I don't have to waste paper. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, yeah, yeah. For real. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: so I was always good at math, so I like, All right, maybe architect and I'm like, I found that they don't really draw for real. And then like I had this phase in Middles middle school where I'd like draw I drew like shoes from the side a lot. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Okay. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so like industrial designer or something like that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And then like by the time I was I there was a program in high school called like Project Lead the Way where if you wanted to like be an engineer or something, so I took like hydroelectronics, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I took AutoCAD, I took rhino and stuff like that. And then because I was smart and I have a dad 'cause I basically by this time I'm with my dad and like my dad has like a PhD so he's like an educator and he's like I guess he found out about dual enrollment and so me and my twin brother were like the first people in my high school of like the dual enrollment and I took seven classes at a community college 'cause there's like this I can't remember if it was the MEAP or some other Michigan test where you took it and then you if you passed it they like paid for you your like s classes and stuff. And so I took seven classes at Schoolcraft Community College in Limon I think that's in Lamonia. And so I took like illustrator photoshop macromedia director that doesn't exist anymore I could have taken Quark Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Express but I never did I could I took like two Adobe After Effects classes I took Flash and then my s Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Flash was my jam. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and to to tell you like because I'm on I'm Elder Millennial so like I could have taken HTML but I'm like Web design, what is that gonna do? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ha ha ha ha. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So it was early enough where I was just like, damn, I should've took S HML classes. I mean I eventually learned how to like by myself, but Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: so my seventh class that I took out of seven was three S Max and that was like maybe my senior year and I'm like, this is a perfect meld of my like analytical or my creative brain Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and I can and like I like really like thirty modeling. I don't know if I knew if I liked it at that point 'cause it was like more of a general re general class. But I knew I it was early enough where I could apply to college to study animation. But I just felt like all my peers were like, man, animation. That I was like, cool story, bro, math. Like and so I didn't get to it 'til like my senior of high s like my junior senior year of high school like, okay, I can do animation as a career and so I went to s Rochester Institute of Technology in upstate New York. and majored in animation. The reason I went to R. A. T., like I also played basketball. I played four years varsity. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): damn. Okay. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: so I was like thinking, but I didn't get recruited or anything, so I like, maybe I can play basketball in college. So Savannah College of Art and Design had a ba a team back then. They were division two. RAT was division three and then St. Clair College in Canada, which was like forty minutes of my house even though it in Canada. And and I d I was trying to leave my twin brother and go out of state so I like I'm not going to St. Clair. So those are like you know, art schools don't have sports for real. And so I only had Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I didn't have that many options. It's it wasn't like I had like I did because I had good grades, I had all those like letters coming in of like what's Carnegie Melon or like, you know, rice Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: or something like that. But I wanted to study animation. I wanted to play sports, so it was like three schools. And then Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I went to R A T and then I like didn't do the summer workout. That's my fault. And I had a meeting with the coach and the captain. And they were like getting on me, like, you didn't do your summer workout, you didn't log your hours and stuff. And I and then we had a team meeting and then the so we had the one of like the the coach and the captain and then we had another meeting with the team and the coach was like, Deborah, did you do your summer workout? And I'm just like This lady no I didn't do that. And so she calling me out in front of all these people. I'm like, second thought, division three, this is like traveling intramuros. I'm doing this. So I just I I kind of s stifled my college decision for absolutely no reason 'cause I didn't end up playing basketball in college. But I enjoyed my college time, so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. we our common friend Charlie, we talked about that just the other day. I talked, I caught up with him on Monday. I think it was Monday. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And we're talking about that. He said, you know, I could have played basketball at Savannah College of Art and Design. I Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): said, you understand that I could have played there too? Like back when I went to school, this is how this is how fast actually technology moves. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): when I When I started going to college in the early 90s, they said special effects with a camera would do stuff like this, right? So like imagine that, well, obviously that's there. But then they would like to take a picture, you would move your hand like this, and then you take Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): a picture. So it made it look like you're holding that. And that was special effects. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's what they considered special effects, like Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): playing with the angles and the distances and stuff like that. Fast forward a couple more years. That's when I got introduced to 3D Studio Max when you only Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): had six of the little balls of the textures and stuff. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And then after that, you know, Flash came out. And Flash was Flash was it for me. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Especially when I got into programming, because a lot like you're saying, like, you know, the programming and art and animation at the same time. for Flash, That was it for me, dude. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You had the design, you had the animation, you had motion graphics, you had the programming, you had the this, you had the that, you had all the things. It was Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): perfect for my brain. It was perfect for my brain. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And then they shit all over it. Thanks, Steve Jobs. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, like 'cause you w we we know like anime became is what Flash was. And then they like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: last year when they were like about to sunset it and everybody was like, No and they're like, Okay, never mind Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, there's a there are so many people, a lot of indie people, but a lot of indie people and even some like popular cartoons were using it and they're like, Yeah, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): we're gonna go ahead and sunset this. Mm-mm. It was a backbone of a lot of IPs. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And and and and even more than that, they've been mistreating us they've been mistreating Flash for a long time. Ever since Steve Jobs said Flash is never gonna be on an iPhone. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That was and that was the downfall. That was when my career the the the the the wheels came to a screeching halt. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I was only doing like smaller projects that that people in Costa Rica were ruining. Cause they don't hire I keep saying this, they don't hire Americans anymore. Not Silicon Valley, not LA. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm. W what's the history you to my Americans don't hear my Americans. Yeah, yeah. All the vendor studios. That's how I got my first job in animation Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, they don't hire Americans anymore. All that stuff goes to Indonesia, it goes to yep, it goes to Costa Rica. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: working at a vendor studio in South Korea. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, tell us about that. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Did you go out there first? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: yes, so I graduated during a great time in our economy, 2008. so yeah. Great time to become an adult. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): the global financial crash, you're like, Can I have a job? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: so I was like I moved to New Orleans and I'm like trying to find a job and I can't and so I'm like the only thing comparable to lit to working animation, which is my dream career, is moving to a foreign country. Which before I went to college, I don't know, being from Detroit, I don't know. about traveling internationally. Like in college it was at most it was like maybe I could study abroad in England because I speak English. and then but I never could figure out how to pay for it so I was like I'm sure like I also have trouble asking for things so my father Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): me too. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: probably would have figured it out but I just never asked for anything so never did an internship 'cause I was like how I'm gonna pay for to live and work for free. And I'm like, if I had just asked Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): For real. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: my parents, they probably could figure something out, but I just never like all my internal dialogue was never external. And so even 'cause I moved to South Korea in two thousand nine, but to tell you how quick of a decision it was, if you had told me January two thousand nine that I would be living in South Korea by August two thousand nine, I'd have called your full face line because that's how quick it was like saw somebody I went to college with, she was a photography major at the time. she and she was in South Korea. She I I remember seeing her like w water white water rafting and doing all this stuff. She was like going on little excursions and I'm like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: What are you doing? She like teach English. Hadn't I had never heard of teaching English in a foreign country before then. And so I was like, okay like at the time you just have to be from one of like five countries like America, Canada, England, Australia South Africa and then maybe Ireland. Like it Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: depended on the school. And so, you know, Western countries. Racism. Cause like there's way more countries that speak English by default. But you know, and so you had to be from one of those countries and then you had to have a degree in anything. Not even an a degree in English. I was like, I well, I can get a job like that. And so I did when I decided I was like, okay, if I don't get a job, I like March or May, I was go I'll start looking into this. So that's when I kinda made the decision. If I had known, you know, ignorance is a bliss. So if I had known o everything about it, to be there in August, I should have been applying in March, but I did not know that. So I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: just started applying in like June. and I did a bunch of re even though 'cause I'm not my personality, particularly at the time, was not very what is it? Like what's the word when you just do stuff out of nowhere? Like it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: not rambunction it's like free. I don't know. I I was I'm more of a methodical planner type person. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so even though it was a quick decision, I still did a a huge chunk of research. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and so I was like, Ooh, I'm applying late. But I still got there. I mean I I I I showed up to my orientation late, but I I got there. And so I got there in August of two thousand nine. again 'cause it was like a it was a random decision and I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna tell nobody I'm do I'm not gonna announce it on Facebook until I get placed and so I get placed at the S SM SMOE, Seoul Metropolitan Office of Education. So I was 'cause I Seoul is the only place I know in South Korea. So I'm like, yeah, Seoul. And so I get placed Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and then I make the announcement on Facebook and I guess because of two thousand eight, like everybody trying to go to everywhere else. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And I think what they did maybe in previous years was they overhired and then not everybody shows up, but everybody was showing up. So I made the announcement on Facebook and they were like, actually we hired two hundred too many people. So and luckily I worked I I went through a recruiting agency, so they were like I wasn't too worried they were to gonna find Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: me something else. But I was like, I just announced this and then they're like, actually, on second thought Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so they found me a placement in Guangzhou, which actually I out of the two years that I lived in South Korea, I actually liked Guangzhou. So I'm glad I'm glad I'm kinda glad that happened because it's like the fifth or sixth largest city at the time and I just I was trying to learn Korean and once I moved to Seoul, like everybody was trying to speak to me in English. I'm like, Can y'all speak y'all language, please? Like I'm trying to learn. So I went there to teach English. I did it for a year, like it was very easy. Like I was making only like twenty eight thousand dollars a year but I could send half my paycheck home 'cause I part of it another reason I was like, I need a job so I can pay my bills 'cause I have like this Verizon thing and actually I ended up going into collections anyway 'cause I forgot about it. And so I'm like in my bed at like three AM and it's like a reasonable time in America, but they're like getting called from clo collections and like the lady has an attitude and I'm like I d one I one thing I don't like is like if I don't with you why do you have an attitude with me? I'm actually nice to customer service. So 'cause I in my mind Yeah, in my mind I'm like, is Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Those bill collectors are assholes though. They're the Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: this your money? Like, 'cause what? Like, dang. Put me on a playmate plan, man. Alright. And so I'm like, I teach like four classes a day. I have two schools. So I have a all girls middle school that I teach at at on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, and then I have an all girls high school that I teach at on Monday and Tuesday. And very like I just 'cause I don't have a degree in English. Like English was actually my least favorite subject in in high school. I got good grades but I still didn't like it. And so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I'm like, I have a co teacher and they actually went to school for this, so let 'cause they you know, they're asking me questions like, What's the difference in a sentence between when you choose somebody and anybody? And as a native speaker, I'm like Just a feeling. I don't know I don't know the like terms or like why you would choose either one. Like just I I just can tell which one is Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's a very interesting question 'cause I don't I I think it's just whatever falls out, no? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. And it's just like I don't know how to I don't know the math of English to tell you the the like I don't know why. I just know it just feels right. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I don't know the formula. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so after I'm like, okay, let my co teachers actually teach the grammar and I know something that's difficult for learning a second language is like you know how to you t sometimes know how to write and s and read, but you don't know how to speak and listen. So I was like, let me just get them to talk as much as possible. So that's how I centered around a lot of my curriculum was like just getting them to talk as much as possible. So it was like a fairy tale land. And I don't drink, so like even people who drink, they could send half they paycheck better. Like they could save half they paycheck. So I you know I was saving a good decent amount of money not drinking. And it's cheap Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: over there, so it's not like you're like breaking the bank. and so it was time to like renew and I was thinking about it and then one of my fraternity brothers who's like my friend, I should tell you how I met him. like he was like, Don't you have a degree in animation? I'm like, yeah I got goals. Like I actually went to school for something that I actually wanted to do. And you know, the further you get out of like college and the industry keeps moving, the harder it's to break in. So I'm like, okay, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I guess Alright, I guess I won't renew. And so what I did was I I thought I was going back to America after a year. And so I was like, okay, I've never seen an animation studio. So I like went to like Google Translate or something and was like, Alright, I email a bunch of studios to give me a tour. And so one responded in Guangzhou, Yeah. Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Is animation pretty big out there? Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Particularly like in the Venture Studio and, you know, the singular studios and stuff like that. So have one that responded in the Guangdod city that I was living in and it was like an incubator and I again I only said I wanted a tour and so they took me on a tour like you couldn't have you couldn't work here because you you have to be floating free and I'm like I wasn't really working like and then I went up to Seoul to digital emation. They took me on a tour. They're like, let's go meet Carl and I'm like okay and so like it's the two D room and it's like cubicles like a It was like a walkway of cubicles and we go down to the end and turn right and I'm like, A black man? I didn't think I was gonna see a black man at a Korea South Korean animation Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: studio. He is like the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): He's like sh don't tell anybody. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So like the foreigners that worked there, like Doug, he was the overseas director, for Family Guy, he was American and then Carl was like Jamaican Canadian. And he was the overseas director for Cleveland Show. And Carl had lived there for like twenty years. He was married to a Korean woman, had children, and a of stuff. And so I was like, Okay. And then they finished the tour. I was in the president, Steve, Stephen Jung, his office, and they're like, Do you have a demo roll? I'm like, No, but I can, which goes into why I couldn't find a job in America, because you know Need a demo reel, but I'm like, let me just throw some images up on a website and try to play apply for Raytheon and Norfolk Roman and stuff like that. And so, yeah. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): See if Blur would take a peek. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: so I'm like, I don't, but I can. And so, in between teaching classes after school and on the weekend, I created my first demo reel. Four months Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Nice. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: to the day, I sent it back to them, and they're like, well, come back up to Seoul. I'm like, I don't even inviting me up to give me. 'Cause like, why am I taking the bus back on the sun? And so they offered me a job. And I remember sitting in the s chair because I'm like, When you teach English, they give they get the apartment for you. Like sometimes your bills are included. So I'm like, I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): damn, nice. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: gotta like be a real foreigner if I take this job. But I'm like, okay. Or if it was I wasn't gonna figure it out. So I was just like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Basically, yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Let's go. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And luckily the vice president, she you know, she was fluent in English. She I think went to college in like Boston or something like that. So she helped me at the immigration office. I thought I would go home when we went to the immigration office 'cause like the you know, they got when you're a foreigner it's like people wanna move internationally, but it's not that easy because you you can't take jobs from the people who live there. So like luckily Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: animation is specialized and so I I had to BS my experience and had to call some people like I know I worked with you on this s like little side project for six months, but could you bump it to a year and like can you and can this other person can you bump to like act like I did animation at this I I taught at a a cy a cyber camp for kids, but act like I did animation and get and write me a little letter and so I had to get like two years experience and then he was like the dude was like looking in the book 'cause you have to find like the code or something and he couldn't find the animation. I'm like So like my my vice president is like fighting for me, but I'm like, I'm going back to America in my head. I'm like, Yeah, you can't find it. But she she pressed him so much that he eventually found it or whatever. And so I was very appreciative to that. For like so many years I wanted to send Steven and like young eye like a letter to thank them and I d I finally did that like I think last year. I sent them like a little email of like thank you for giving me my like opportunity and all that type stuff because I kinda felt bad like I because I only worked at digital emission for a year 'cause I just I got I got tired of being stared at and so I planned to work there for two years. So for her to like work so hard for to get me my visa and then I'm like, all right, I'm out. I kinda felt bad. But I did help Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Explain that explain that to people so they understand. Cause that's Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): a that's a huge that's that little f joke is huge. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. 'Cause like I'm an introvert and I play extrovert on TV. I I trick all people all the time to think I'm an extrovert. I'm like, I can I I learned how to stream two sentences together in college. I w K through twelve, I was like, All right, just listening. Like I had my mom send me my kindergarten progress reports 'cause like from from September to like February they're like, She's very quiet. And then like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: February they're like, she's even warmed up to the teachers. I like, I wasn't even talking to the teachers And so I had her send me that 'cause like did Toastmasters when I was in New Orleans. So I I got like best speaker, so I wanted to juxtapose like she doesn't talk to like best speaker. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's funny. It says we can't get her to stop. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, so like naturally I'm an introvert and I don't like attention. Cause like people will be like, if they stare at you pretend you're on a runway. Like, I would never be on a runway. So that doesn't work. And so I'm like people always like, were they short? Like, Koreans weren't really overwhelmingly short, maybe the older people. Like I am five Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: nine, but it I didn't feel like I was a giant there. but I'm black. And then I had like a big afro over there. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so and I'm sensitive. So like when I were working at the all girls high school, like I would keep my hair in twists. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: then one time I had my afro and I'm walking up to the school and they was like Michael Jackson. I'm like he ain't He ain't been black since Not funny to me. Like 'cause you know, they just like dwindle it down, like, you know, if you're a black woman you were like Oprah or Beyonce and then if you were a black dude, you're like Obama or Jay Z. Like So I'm just like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. When I when I was when I was stationed in in Germany and they found out that I was from Chicago, they would always be like, Chicago, gangster, bang bang. But Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Right. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): like that's a little racist. I will shoot you, but but that's racist as shit. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Right. So I just like and then I feel like there's this concept because I I'm very like my dad my dad always taught me the observant is a gift of c and a curse. So I'm always analyzing stuff. And so my takeaway of like Korean culture is like it's kinda like perpetual children and so like I explained it as if in America, if aliens came down today, after about three weeks, people were like, Alright, you alien, get over it. Like who cares? Like But in like Korea, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. You're not special. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: right, it's like, alright, alright, the novelty is off. That's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: what happened with George Floyd. We're like black squares, white text, and after two years we're like, Alright, we're off that. We're about to be racist again. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So like When I was working at the animation studio, my director Eddie, it wa he was like forty, maybe fifty at the time and then you know, 'cause when when we when they had the Olympics in Korea, they was like, Don't play. It's cold here. So it'd be cold in Korea. It's not nothing new. They Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: were like with with a winter Olympics, they like, Bring your stuff, 'cause it get cold. and I remember my first winter, I'm like, I went to Uni Club, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Bring your timberlands and your north face. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I'm like, I had my little dress shoes. I'm like Need my fake Uggs, I need gloves, I need scarf, I need fake peacoat. Like like that first winter, I'm like, ugh. So when I'm working at Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ha ha ha. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: the animation, the second year I'm working at the animation studio and it's like the first winter, and my director's like, Deborah, look, snow, and I'm like, You're free. You've seen snow every year, your whole life. So it's like, it's like this novelty Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: of like even when I was teaching English and my one of my co-teachers, she like fell accidentally, and the way she like got grabbed her knee is it was like she was like a kid. Like I don't know. There's like they are adults but sometimes the way they operate is like perpetual children. So like my thought, you know, when people be like, I went to China and they took pictures of me and they have maybe have never seen a a a a a like a black person. I fully believe that at my animation studio, them people work with me every day and I can believe that they went out with a wife or their husband and it was like ooh a black person. It it like it th I don't think I from my personal experience, I don't think that it's that they've possibly never seen a black person. It's just they I don't know and I don't know if it's all Asian culture, it's just like they just want to take pictures of you and possibly make fun of you in their group chats. a I don't think a lot of people know that the people in China are doing that, but like You think it's like all innocent, like I 'cause 'cause even in American culture or Western culture, we infantilize Asian people and so we're like, they're innocent and it's like, little do you know. They're not. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: yeah, I just because I'm kinda tall, black, had a afro, it just was like plenty of stuff to stare at. Never went to the Jim Joe Bong, which is the public bathhouse, that I'm like My chest is decent sized and I'm like, I just don't want another thing for people to stare at. And so I just never I'm not I also when I play four years varsity, I changed nostalg all four years. And not because I n you know, not because I thought anybody like lesbian or anything. I just was not comfortable with my body. Like I'm just like, All right. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's a thing. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Alright, putting on my uniform, putting on my practice Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: stuff. Like I just I'm not getting naked in front of y'all like I'm just Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That was a cultural that was Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: That's not my story. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): a cultural shift for me when I went to Germany Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uhhuh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): to being stationed in Germany. We ended Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): up going to this indoor water park Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): and the adults, you know, the the the dressing rooms were separate, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): but the steam room wasn't. And the steam Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): room you had to go in naked. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): that's you know i'm like 17 18 years old hormones are raging Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): boy yeah that was that was that was different it was cool but i couldn't control myself i was 17 18 years old so yeah there's those things Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes. Right. But yeah, so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): that are just just little things that Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, I just I just like I can't do this anymore. And I ha I ha like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I had a fr one of my fraternity brothers he had a friend that was working at anime my friend is I think I told you about him when we talked a little bit. He was half Korean, half Puerto Rican. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I ha he was working at an animation studio that wasn't like 'cause we were a venture story studio for like, you know, American companies that he worked at like a Korean they was trying to create their own stuff. So he wasn't getting his checks. And his mom his Korean mom was like If I'm gonna pay be floating you, you might as well come back home. So my friend Lou was like, help Roberto and I'm like, Okay. He became the band of my existence like he was the older brother like I have all I actually have older brothers, but you know, that annoying older brother that you never asked for, that was him because he spoke Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: fluent Korean and you know if we went to Subway, like that habit your way like cater to you Americanness is it doesn't exist in Korea. So if they Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: have a sense like all that those standard Subway sandwiches, they just get that. Like I am like, can I get turkey, spring lettuce, mayo, honey mess dirt. Like maybe the the spring, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Banana peppers. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: what was it called? The onion sauce or whatever. I would be Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah, yeah, yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: very specific. And so I think they thought that was weird. So like when we would go to lunch or dinner together and get Subway, he's like telling them in Korean put like olives and and onions and they would be listening to him. I I understand this is weird for me to be this simple, but adio like I don't want I'm y I'm pyon adio and I d I don't think I know how to cite all of us, but I'm like a yo and so he would always do stuff Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): huh. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like that. And I was like, Can you leave me alone? Like I know we're the only ones in our three D department that speak English, but it was also funny 'cause like sometimes we you know, it's communal culture, so we will eat breakfast on the way there but we eat lunch and dinner together 'cause we work ten A. to ten PM like Monday through Friday, ten A. to like six PM on Saturday. We got Sundays off. And so we're eating food to our meal 'cause I'm like a s I'm assimil I'm assimilate 'cause I'm not trying to be no I'm not trying to be American. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Are you making are you making the same amount as when you were teaching or are you making a little yeah? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. And that and that was actually more than what I was supposed to be making because they were like i I found out kinda a little later that it was like an internship and they were and my vice president was like, don't tell anybody what you're making 'cause you're not supposed to be making this much. But I needed to sustain myself 'cause I'm you know, Korean culture, they like kinda stay with their parents until they get married and I'm like, I'm here by myself So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I need money. but yeah, so I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And they hired you. What was your job when you got hired? Modeler? All right, cool. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: three D modeler. So the this whole like it was mostly like two D animation 'cause you know, Family Guy, Cleveland Show, Batman Brother in the Bowl, and Scooby Doo is what we worked on. And so that's where Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): wow, cool. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I learned about tune shading and like all the cars, all the vehicles in Family Guy and Cleveland Show are three D, some of the backgrounds we did. and then some props. My thought 'cause I 'cause I you know, you know how curr Korean men have to go to do military service. Like that two years mandatory military service. I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: feel like some of the culture of how our department was ran was like that, 'cause like I had to come to at the Monday meetings. I had to bring a notebook. I feel like they had probably had to bring a notebook in, you know, their military meetings. And I had to sit there even though I didn't understand Korean and they were not speaking English. Like my s my director was like, Yeah, you have to be here. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You had to get immersed though. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And like all the paperwork was in Korean. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I remember when I first got there, I was like, Can you give me like a little vocabulist on like the terms? But once you know how to read, you're like reading. okay. Anime shung. Okay. Like, yeah, like so it was kinda dumb that I asked for like a vocabulary list because it's just like the Korean it's just American. It's just English, but like in Korean. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Surrounded in Korean words, yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And then no, it was like it was written in Korean, but it was like It was a digging, but it was in Korean. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Like all the stuff is in Korean characters. But I I'm Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like, this is just the word. Okay, got it. And so, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ha ha. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: yeah. Like I had to w our department was anywhere from like seven to eleven people and I only worked there a year. It's like I always wondered, like, what are they telling them in college? 'Cause I remember one girl, she worked for one day. Like and then quit. But our they also warrant warned me that our director Eddie was mean. But he couldn't speak English Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's funny. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and I couldn't speak Korean, so he couldn't yell at me. And then like when we when we shared a room with the the head of background, she's another person who could speak full English, she was like, You've made Eddie nicer. I was like, don't know how I did that, but okay. Yeah, you're welcome. And then Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You're welcome. Can I get a raise? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I think they felt sorry for me. As a foreigner, so like we you know, we work ten hour twelve hour days and then, you know, what, like six hour days. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Twelve hour twelve hour days, six days a week. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So ten AM to ten PM, Monday through Friday and then ten A. to six PM on Saturday. And so I felt like maybe they felt sorry for me, so eventually they were like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Were you were you in crunch time or was that just standard? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: That was normal. That's why I didn't use vendor studios, because there's no type of workers' rights. Luckily I did it Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): God dog. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: in my twenties. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, I don't know how I'll do that now, but like but even in my twenties, I remember one t one day it was like Tuesday and then the next day was Thursday and I was like, I'm dying quicker Where'd Wednesday go? Because like when you're working ten AM to ten PM, my well my my Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You don't ever see the sun. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, my schedule was like, okay, I get home, I I like download all my like illegally download all my American shows and and and like movies and then I have Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: my like iPod touch and so I would download them overnight and then in the morning I would transfer them to my iPod touch so I could like watching stuff as I'm working. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure, yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so that was my routine. So like if I'm getting work getting home at ten PM, I don't have to time to register like, okay, today was Tuesday. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Today is Wednesday. Like I'm just going to sleep and then waking up for the next day. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It just it just really clicked kinda hard right now in my head that you know how like when they're making iPhones, they go to China and the and Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): and they have netting around the the buildings and stuff, so people Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): don't take the plunge. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's because it's way more affordable and like you said, there's Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: 'Cause ca ca Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): no rules to employment. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And the culture as pr s specifically in Korea is like you don't leave till your boss leaves. So like your boss could be like leaving at eight PM and then then and then your and then that boss like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): He could be mad at his wife, he don't want to he don't want to be home. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: okay, we can leave at like eight thirty and then these like okay, we can leave at nine and like so it's like one of my friends who taught English at the college level, I remember he said like he tried to like the one of the vocabulary words was efficient and like Koreans didn't understand because it's like working long hours, even if you're not doing anything, is like how you show that you're like a hard worker or something. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so efficiency is doing the most amount of work in the least amount of time. And so they're like, efficient, efficiency. Yeah, so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Just get in your office. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And I was working the whole time. It wasn't like I was lax or anything. I mean some other departments probably were but Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): At one point were you were you like, all right, that was cool. I gotta get out of here. Or did you get deported? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: No. I almost became a midnight runner, when I was teaching English. So midnight runner Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Midnight Runner? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: is like when people just kinda go back home and don't tell anybody. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So what had happened was Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I in April of April first, twenty ten, so I was Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Is that like what's that called? A quiet quitting? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well quite quitting is like you're still there but you're like not doing Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Similar. You still show up, you just don't do shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So it's the precursor like quite quitting is a precursor. But like so April first, twenty t ten is when my maternal grandmother died. And so, with the time difference, my dad my dad is actually the one who called me and he called me and it was like maybe fifteen minutes before I was going to school to teach. And so I didn't have that like, I can sleep on it and be like, maybe you shouldn't go to work today. I just was like, I just found out my grandma died and then was like, All right, go to school. And so I went and I told my main co teacher, I'm like, my grandma died. And then I'm like, I'm kind of looking around because we had like our little office and I'm like, Is she telling other people? Or and so I was like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: kinda circle back like do I have to teach today? And she's like, you have to ask each co teacher and so I had to had the same lady for the first three classes and then Miss Young. If I remember her name, this is not gonna end well. but like I had Miss Yang 'cause I can't remember the other the nice lady's name, but like I had the same person for the first three classes and then Miss Young. And so the l lady I had for the three classes was like, Okay, no you don't have to teach and then Miss Young decided, I think you could teach And so I went to c the cla and that was at the end of the day, that class. So I'm I my grandma dies and I'm at school the wh entire day. I go to the fourth class and for for whatever reason, I don't know why, but like Miss Young is not there. So they usually like the my co teachers were usually there from the beginning to the end. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: so I'm up in the front and this is the this is the first time I'm having to test my medal because like I didn't have to teach. So I'm like in front of class, I'm like trying to like talk, but I can't because my grandma just died. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: so I'm like, like they're loud and I'm trying to tell them to be like be quiet, but like my voice cannot project because I'm trying not to cry. And then I ended up breaking down crying in front of class, and then that's when they finally sent me home. And so I was like, there was already there was already a precedent set. Like the previous semester, my co teacher who was a guy, his grandfather died and they gave him three days off. So I know that not necessarily 'cause in America you're I'm treated a certain way 'cause I'm black. In a Korea I'm treated 'cause I'm not Korean. So am I not a human? 'Cause like why did you make me stay here? Like my grandma died. The other dude's grandfather died. Y'all s he got three days off. But I had to ask each each teacher c did I have to teach. Broke down the crying in front of class and then they finally sent me home. that that might a I don't remember what day it was that year, if it was a Friday or something, but I was essentially like if my high school teach you treats me like this, I'm leaving. And luckily my high school gave me those T days off. I don't know if like they maybe communicated and was like maybe you should give her two days off. I don't or Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I don't know if my high school just decided to do it or whatever, but they gave me the two days off. That's what saved that's what saved it, 'cause I'm like, if y'all didn't give me those two days off, I'd a I'd have been like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: 'Cause y'all are like, why are y'all treating me like I'm not a human being? And then when I came back to my middle school, like the kids were making fun of me. And so I just like I told my co teacher, I'm like, I will not teach another class if the like my grandmother died. Why why are y'all letting them make fun of me? Yes. So I was like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Why are you treating me this way? Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Y'all need to talk to those children. Like 'cause like I'm not teaching y'all not gonna make fun of me for crying when Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I'm gonna teach him nothing but the F Wahm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: my grandma died. So they talk to the kids, but I just like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. That's when I was like, Okay, that w like the one blood idea that like a lot of Asian cultures have, it's like they're not treating you 'cause you're whatever. They're treating you 'cause you're not whatever they Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Is that kind of like and I could be oversimplifying this, but Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): from from everywhere I've gone and they have their, you know, that all these big cities have their little Chinatown stuff like that. And Asian folks have a tendency to stick stick with Asian folks. They don't really there's not a lot of them that go outside that circle. Is Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And that is what is very it was your question, what's your question? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Is is that what that one blood thing is all about? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes, and that's what's very annoying about they also like there's the Korea it's like winning Rome. Like you do but they bring kimchi and and and rice everywhere on vacation and stuff. And like when I worked at the animation studio, there's this dynamic where if you're single you're not supposed to like really talk to married people like that. And so me going to see Carl, a black man, the only other black man black person at this studio, of course I would want to go visit him, but Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: he's married. So it's weird. The people think it's weird that you go to visit him. Like I know if y'all went to America and y'all met another Korean person, y'all would go visit them every day. Even more than I probably visit Carol. But it's weird because I'm visiting somebody who speaks English and looks like me. So I like I didn't stop but I listened, I'm like, all right, whatever. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You know you're leading into a stereotype that like you know how how non black people think that all black people know each other? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Bruh, we gotta stick together. He's making overseas director money so when we go to lunch, he pays. This is the same thing when I, you know, when I was in college and I realized Caribbean men cook, all right, I'm not dating you, but I'm over your house because you're gonna feed me. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Hell yeah. Hell yeah. And that's how we show our love. We could. Yeah. You go to Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Love this culture. Hey y'all can cook down like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): you go to a Cuban person's house. You go to a Cuban person's house, the first thing is, did you eat? Do you want some coffee? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. I'm like, I adapt. So in college I learned that. Yes. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): If they don't do that, if they don't do that, they're they're you know, they're they're Anglos. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. So if I'm in Korea and and this dude is making money and then w we didn't even go on our foreigner lunches that often, but I'm like, he's gonna pay? Yes. Cause Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Course. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: we're like 'cause we you we're going to like America so we're going like Outback or like Pizza Hut or something. I like I'm like, give me some kimbab, give me some bugonky. Like, I'm eating this Korean food, man. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You got any of the got any of that dry ramen? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: again I've grew up like a very hamburger hot dog kid very finicky so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Korea helped me with my vegetable intake and like okay Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Hell yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: my adult tastes buds like this I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Let that kick in. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I had because going to McDonald's as a kid I'm like no pickles no onions 'cause I don't like uncooked onions. Now I like cooked onions but I didn't really like pick pickles. So like when we're going to our far foreign lunch lunches For some reason in in Korea, when you go to pizza, they like put this like couple pickles, like the sweet pickles on your I'm like do y'all eat pickles with pizza over that? Like what is going on? So after so many times of going to Pizza Hut, I'm like, Alright, let me try they're on the they're on the table. Let me try these pickles. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I'm like, hmm So I like sweep sweet pickles. I don't know if I like dill pickled pickles, but I'm like, okay, I'm twenty. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): they put pickles they put pickles on their pizza? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: No, it's just like a cup. It's like a you know, in Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah, yeah, yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like in Korea they have pawn chan, like the side dishes and stuff, so like that's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Okay. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: the that's like the pawn chan for like for like pizza, like they just put it on your table before they bring it. Yeah. And so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Like a palette cleanser kinda. Yeah, yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: at like what was I twenty three or something, I'm Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like or twenty four, I'm like, alright, I like pickles now. Now do I buy them at my house? No. Now my childhood itself would be surprised that I willingly buy brussels sprouts now. And it's my main like like I love my green bar. I air fry because back when my mom made they Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): How do you make Brussels sprouts? How do you make Brussels sprouts? Ooh, talk to me. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: were bold, the boiled. that's probably and it what I what I why I didn't like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Bah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So I sat on the at the table as a child, unless I wanted to whooping, brussels sprouts, broccoli, mixed vegetables 'cause of the carrots. Still don't mess with broccoli. I eat brussels sprouts regularly. I sh I I heard they got the little they done morphed so they're not as bitter as when we were kids, I think. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Me tell you, let me tell you a quick little recipe that makes broccoli not not terrible. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: It's tight. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Take broccoli, you chop it, you know, you chop it, make the little baby trees, right? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And then you put some olive oil, mix it in there, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): some salt and some some chili flakes. And Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Well. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): if you could, if you could get some chop up some garlic and mix all that in there and then bake it. And then you have to bake it. Until it gets kind of like a little bit burnt, a little bit crispy on the edges and stuff like that. And then it's good. Yeah. Like that, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. 'Cause that's my big thing. It was like it's mur it's mushy and it's thank. My twin brother loves broccoli. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): like, yeah, you that and that's the thing about vegetables. Like they they're not my favorite either. I know that they're good for you, and I know that they Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): keep things moving and all the things, all the things, but boy, it's challenging. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So the way I do brush sprouts is I air fry I do the olive oil, mix Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Okay. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: them up, salt, pepper, throw them in there. And if I want to brown really good, I'll Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That sounds good. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: put some pepperica on them to brown Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. We got a restaurant out here called Glenellen Star. It's the best restaurant in the area. They Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): take Brussels sprouts. I mean, they make Brussels sprouts at the best, but after I describe them, you're gonna be like, Yeah, because it's candy. You take Brussels sprouts. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, I I that's the best version of Breath of Scrolls. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Brussels sprouts. They put some sauce on it that's kind of like syrup. It's on the sweeter side, but it's not Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): syrup. And then they put bacon and then they put it in a wood fire oven and they burn them up real nice. that is delicious. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. 'Cause I'm like, when you get it at restaur restaurants, I'm like, if they're this burnt, do they have nutritional value anymore? I don't know, but they're delicious. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, is I I don't even ask that question. This is way better than a cheeseburger and I am doing my best at eating vegetables. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And and when we when I was in Korea, like they would have these commercials. I barely watched T V. Because after like when I first was in Korea, I kept turning on the TV and it kept being Mr. Bean. And I'm like, Why? So and then it Yes, but Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): He's funny, but come on now. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: it's like, do y'all have any other options? And then they had the like channel where you like it's normal now, but you like you were watching people play video games. It wasn't normal back then. Like it was normal for Koreans 'cause they would have the little Pichi bongs like the PC rooms where they like go play video games and stuff. But it wasn't normal in America yet. So it was like, Do you're watching people play games? And so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: there was a commercial, it was like a restaurant and they had like a table full of vegetables and all they did was like pan the camera and I'm like, Man, that must look gooder than a mug to like Koreans. Like I'm just like I wish I could salivate at just a a table ver like full of vegetables, but that Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Two of my stuff. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: but that does not look delicioso to me. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): No, no. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I'm like, it's just a pan of like, I'm like, you just pan vegetables and that's like, yeah, I want to go to that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It's just nothing but vegetables. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And then, when I first moved there, and I I like we went to the orientation, we dispersed to our our cities. Like my co-teacher from my high school took me around, like he showed me like where my middle school was, where my high school was. And then like he drove me to the middle school because my first day, I'm like, I'm walking up hills. Like I Like in the winter they had to like throw down a rope sometimes 'cause like the there was like the driveway and then you walk across this like the playground which was all sand and then you gotta walk up like a million steps and I'm like that's why I was so skinny 'cause I'm like walking Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: everywhere and so he took me around and then we went to somewhere to eat. I guess 'cause I think one thing that surprised me about Korea was that there's so many so much English everywhere. And so I I'm guessing that we went to a restaurant and there may have been English outside that said vegetarian. I don't know. I don't know if you told me that it was vegetarian or it was I read the sign, but I was like, I don't know what I said, but the sentiment was, If you want me to eat today, I need meat. I'm not I can't be fulfilled at a vegetarian place. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so that's what I was known like if, you know, we went to a different places when I was teaching or when we went to different places when I was at the animation studio, like Deborah needs meat. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Like even when I was like, what what would what will California Deborah be when I was moving here? Not a vegan, not a vegetarian, I think to tell that much. I like the meat. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): No. No. No. Yeah. And down there, I mean, there is this one vegetarian place that I like to go to. It's Where is it? I think maybe close to Pasadena, maybe, but it's it's on the Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Well. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): north side, north side of of all that stuff. and it's like It's Asian inspired and you can get Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): like egg rolls and stuff like that, but made out of vegetarian Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): stuff, and it's delicious. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I do like this place called Sugar Taco down here. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: to I have a a a note on my phone because you know when they be using like this is supposed to be you know Al pastor or this is supposed to but it's the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: vegan I'm like I gotta take notes because I know one of these I don't like. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So don't get that taco vegan. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): once you left Korea, is that when you went back down to Nales? Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm. Yeah. So, I went back down to New Orleans. I d I gave myself time 'cause I you know, contract to contract, like the teaching English was August August and then the t I won contract for like the studio, so that was ended at August like twenty third. So I moved back and then I was like, alright, I give myself a couple months 'cause I think Did I build I feel like I built up my savings account for the first time in my life back then. And I was staying Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: with my ex boyfriend too. but I got a job at TurboSquid and not a lot of people know that TurboSquid is in New Orleans. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's pretty cool. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, so yes, it was founded in New Orleans, it's a New Orleans company. for people who don't know what TurboSquid is, it's a Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And for folks that yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: three D market pa place. A lot of places get their three miles. Even even professional you like TurboSquid knows all the places and you're not allowed to say all the places they use TurboSquid. Some of them are willing to be known, some of them aren't. But CNN, IKEA Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And that's what like now that everyone now that everyone is leveraging AI and stuff like that, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I understand everyone's pennies being in a bunch, but Companies have been cutting corners and Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Using other yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): you know, whether whether it's, you know, I've been using stock photography basically my entire career. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: No. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Like if it's any kind of design or any kind of if I'm working with a design company, la la la, everyone has a stock photography. Not everybody's setting up an entire photo shoot and cameras and all that stuff. People been Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): cutting corners and doing things. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like this story will got kinda help with the possibly with the idea that maybe AI wouldn't I mean if it gets good enough. But so the main thing I worked I was a QA inspector and then I became a manager of the checkmate advisory the checkmate program. So the checkmate program came out of like they would they had a checkmate advisory board of like game video game studios, different you know entities and huh Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And what's checkmate is what was checkmate? okay. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: it was like a certification program. So they interviewed like a bunch of studios and they're like, what is bad about our models or whatever? And they're like, Sometimes we just need it to work. Sometimes we just need it to open up. Sometimes we want it to like have no no overlapping vertices, no overlapping faces, da da da da. So they created a checkmate light, which was like it i it was like a badge. Not a lot of I don't think a lot of people I don't know the marketing around it, I don't know if a lot of people who used Tilbur Squid actually knew that this existed, but It was like a gray badge, like a check mark, where this is Checkmate Light. You know if you buy this model, it'll open up and there will be no errors. So that was the the thing for Checkmate Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Light. For Checkmate Pro, it was like it'll have no overlapping vertices, it'll have no overlapping like faces, it'll it won't have any errors. It was like so I was an a QA inspector for the program. We would the the artists from around the world they would submit their model to the program because you could charge more like like if you you could charge whatever you wanted, but if Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: if if the companies knew that this was a good model, then they would most likely buy it because it's a c crapshoot if you just didn't have the badge on there. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Right. Right. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so they would submit it to the our team and then we would like, okay, do you want to get Checkmate Light, Checkmate Pro? So we would do the like little checklist. Okay, this is ready for Checkmate Light. You can now publish it, Checkmate Light. Or this is Check Me Pro when you we publish at Check Me Pro. And so even though I was already a three D modeler, I always wanted to l see what my models looked like when I was working at Korea 'cause I'm like I did they my my TA my in my first three D class, he always taught me like all quads and all ingons and all that stuff, but I'm like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: man, it it's because of him, my s models weren't as bad as they could have been, but I I always wanted to look back at my like stuff off from family guy, like, how terrible was my s was my topology or something. so yeah. But what Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I'm writing down I'm writing down notes right now. Sorry. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: my the story is like I remember so if you've ever watched Girl with the Dragon Cat Tattoo, there Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: the first scene there's like this zoom down into this keyboard. That keyboard was bought on Tebelswidth. And so when they bought the keyboard, they had to fix it. And so that was kind of like one of the stories that went into like creating the checkmate program where Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Okay. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: the companies who bought from Turbo Square would know, okay, if it has this badge, at least if it has the light, light one, it'll open up and it'll work. It might have triangles or something, but it'll work. But if the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: pro it had to be all quads, dah dah da. So that's kind of where it came from. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. And for folks that don't really know what the hell we're talking about, when you're modeling, when you're modeling, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Ha ha ha Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): there's a mesh. It's like literal points and lines. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And when you're extruding and moving faces and and segments and everything, if you're not careful, it can you can get pinching and you can get overlaps and Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): and and when you're trying to Texture this model or even animate Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): it, setting it up and rigging it. The cleaner your mesh is, the better all of these things will work with it, whether you're painting or whether you're trying to rig it so you can actually move it like a puppet. So it's a big difference. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. And the cleaner it is, the more realistic because the from them zooming into the horrible version, it's it's a professional movie and you're doing this close up and it looks terrible. So like they had to fix it to make it look less terrible. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And the reason why you want it to look as real as possible in movies and stuff like that is because when you see those errors, it snaps people out of it. Even if you don't fully Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): understand what's happening, if it if it doesn't fit the scene, it can take you out of the experience. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And that's what's annoying for me when people when the lay person's like, I hate V FX or I hate this, it's like you hate bad V FX. A lot of stuff you Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: see is V FX but you don't you can't tell it's 'cause the Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Exactly. Good VFX you'll never know. You'll never know. Yeah. and then you know, leveraging AI and stuff like that. Like I've I've been playing with it. I I still don't think that I would I don't think that I would ever me myself would deliver Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): something that was rendered out in AI. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, 'cause what I was saying with the AI conversation is like some some of it is still not good enough to use in production. So for people who are worried. But they'll probably get good enough. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. But like I'll take yeah. I I love 2D anyway. So Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): you know I I can see I haven't done this yet, but I can see where you can you can feed it your artwork and you can say take this character and you know put it in the certain position. So then you can go through and draw it rather Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): than trying to find Going on the internet and saying, show me a person bending over to pick up a a a clothes basket. You could just take Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): your character, feed it the character and say, make this character pick up a clothes clothes basket, and you can use that as reference. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, and the way I know Charlie is he was my instructor for a AI AI for art direction class and excellent instructor. What for my projects it was like this is pissing me off so much, I just wanna go draw. And so for me personally, per c because if we take the story I told earlier about the dancing clown, because I'm still it's it's you know, so many decades later but I'm still as an artist I'm still trying to work through some things in my personal art journey that AI would take that away from me because I see this there's there's I'm I'm I I think for fun, I'm deep. so there's some transferable skills that can apply to like actual real life for my art journey and so I want to create the thing and I wanna actually get back into drawing too. 'cause I I've been struggling with digital sculpting for some years and it's because like the reason I like three D modeling is because I can get that little dopamine hit. I if I you know, I made a a Batmobile, the nineteen eighty six Michael Keenan Batmobile I made it for episode of Family Guy. And so I you know, you're creating shape and form and but I can, you know, I can just do a lug nut or the or the or or the wheel and get my little dopamine hit of detail. And so for me with sculpting I'm recovering perfectionist and I am like it's like sculpting is ugly until it's not. And so I have to deal with like okay, I can't make it pretty at every stage. I have to I have to live in the ugly, I have to live in the journey. It's the journey. I need to be concentrated on a journey. So for me as a person who has been in the industry for 15 years, been doing art for my entire life, been doing 3D like twenty years. It's so interesting for me to be like, that's the benefit of foundational stuff. That's why you learn the fundamentals. Got it. Because I've been struggling like and I say that I'm Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: struggling with sculpting, but I'm probably further than I actually think I am. It's I'm probably more in my head than anything. but I wanna create character, so that's a lot of anatomy. So there is a there is a compare contrast thing that you are doing where it's like it's it can be non realistic and stuff. Yeah, so that's mostly what it is. If I was just creating hard service stuff, I'm a hard I've I'm a hard service modeler. And so if I just was creating cards and stuff, it wouldn't be that deep. But because I want to create characters and I don't I was never a character modeler, it's more like in my head. And so when I first got started doing Z brush, it's like this is about discovery and playing around and that's not my strong suit. I'm more of a Let me Google why what tool to use in Maya Blender Centaforty like Discovery. If you want me to be free, can you give me a 52-page PDF on how to be free? Thank you. So like I actually something that is enjoyable in my version of humaning is like yes I have these natural attributes of being this like a Virgo or an analytical person or la but I'm like how but I like not how do how how about I try to not be that? Like how about I I thrive in planning, but what if w my YouTube series that I'm doing right now, what if I don't just don't plant it? And you you see Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like okay, this is the b like I already knew the benefit of planning, but it's like I just wanna be able to do exp extemporaneous things. I wanna be able to do stuff off the cuff because Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: as I try to grow, I wanna be, you know, it was like one of the Bible verses like if if you become faithful over a few I'll make you really mini. Like if I do this small then I can be given more and I can be ready for it because I won't be able to plan everything, every opportunity that I get. So I'm trying to practice like I I call myself an evolved Virgo, which means I'm going to be annoying to you, but not as annoying as you think I am. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): As long as you don't make Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: That can be normal. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): me as long as you don't make me go there. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes. Like I remember when I moved to Los Angeles 'cause you know, I'm being a being a Virgo, I was like, I don't care about this stuff. Well, like which sign are you? I don't know. Then they asked you your birthday, I'm like, okay, I just remember it at this point. I'm a Virgo. And so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like when I first moved to LA I was I was at like I had one good month of networking before the pandemic hit. And so I was at a brunch for like this these people made this like magazine. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You just keep picking easy things to do. You moved to Korea when the world was falling apart. You moved to LA when COVID hit. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes! man, I made great decisions. that I didn't know were coming, but like hey. so I was at this brunch and they get to st start talking about zodiacs and I'm like, at that point in life I'm aware that I'm going to shut up and hopefully I can disappear into the into the background because I'm not about to tell y'all a I'm a Virgo and y'all gonna tell me how you hate me for twenty minutes. 'Cause apparently we are very disliked. Yeah, so I'm like, All right, if I could just be quiet. This Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Virgos are hard to deal with or whatever. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: is my K through twelve training of like, if I just be quiet, then they will forget I'm here. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I also continued this a little bit into college. That's how I, you know, stayed private. I I I stayed on Unity House my freshman year of college, which is the where all the black and brown people stay, and I ha I managed to have nobody in my business expert level. an expert level. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Look at that. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Cause you know, black and brown people be in your business. My friend Otto Beltray, he like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): What Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: he my b my friend O T T O both ways, what about O he like I was on the floor and I was going on a date and like he's like stopping me like where you going? And I'm like None of business. And he's like trying to block me and I'm like, the floor is NAL. We have two exits. So I just turned around and went the other way and left. And then like also I was talking to a a mutual friend, like my friend one of my f girlfriends, I was on the phone and she wanted to know who I was on the phone with and then she like snatched it and obviously the dude just didn't talk. Because we Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: e if it would have been like we know we both knew who he was, but we not trying to say what we Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: you know. And then she took my loaf of home fried bread and beat me with it because I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Here we go. Beat you with it. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Because I wouldn't tell her who was on the phone. I did tell her f maybe three years out of college. I was like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: she was like, I knew it But yeah, so I was very private person. It was I was so private that people made up stuff about me. Like they're like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It'll happen. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Deborah, like one dude, 'cause it w it went into my sophomore year, there was a freshman, he was like, Deborah, I heard stuff about you. I'm like, Can you tell me what you've heard? He's like, I just lying, I just thought you would start talking if I said like I he was he I guess he thought I like start giving it away or something, like, you have you heard this or something? I was like, Okay, I I'm like, what have you heard? 'Cause don't nobody Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): After Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: know nothing. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah, I I try to be a nice guy. I try to be friendly. I try to all I'd ever try to do is laugh. And Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): when I was done with school, when I was done at film school, whatever, like so many people came up to me and was like, yo, you are nothing like I heard. I was like, What'd you hear? What the fuck? Like Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Like people disrespect quiet people, like we're the devil, or private people. Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Let me tell you, through college, all I did was take classes and then go to work bartending. I didn't have time. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I didn't have time to hang out or it was either that or obviously doing homework, which entailed drawing, 3D modeling, animating, making Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): movies, all that shit. So I don't have time to be an asshole. So what'd you hear? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I like when I was in New Orleans and this was like twenty ten, twenty eleven or I guess I was in Korea. So like twenty eleven is when I came back. And so they had like a old school versus new school at my at my high school for b the basketball team. And so my old teammate hit me up, like, you wanna come back and like participate on the old school team? I was like, Okay And you know, w she I think she had to call me like a couple of times and we're having a conversation and she's like, Deb, I didn't You were so cool, and I'm just like in my head, I'm like, Yes, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: this is what happened when you have conversations with people and get to know them, they can be cool. And then because Facebook came out my freshman year, maybe the first or second quarter. So it definitely came out during finals week because people was like, You need to go do your work. so it came out my freshman year, and so you know, you're becoming Facebook friends with like your high school people. I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: in faith in in college I was like, okay, what are the names of cute guys? Brian, all right, let me friend every b cute Brian that's in college. Let me fr let me friend every cute Chris. So that that that has since been purged from Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: but like back in the day I'm like, what are cute guy names? And so one of my high school classmates, I think she was like a year younger than me, 'cause like my cousin He went to one an another popular, really good school, Rena I think he went to Renaissance 'cause the good schools are cast, Renaissance my I'm on the king. I think he went to Renaissance and he was like known like doing parties and stuff in high school and then when he went to Grambling in Louisiana, the HBCU, he continued like doing that. And so a couple a coup a couple of people I went to high school with went to Grambling, so they knew him and he's like an alpha part of fraternity and dah dah dah. And so when they found out, I don't know if I posted a picture or something like that and one of my high school people because I was again at K through twelve, I was like really quiet. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I wasn't bullied, but I was like, I just wasn't popular either. And so, she was like, Thomas is your cousin? And I because I think for fun, I'm like, I don't need to be cool to be related to somebody from blood. Like, yes, he's my cousin. He's my actual cousin. I'm like, Yes, he's my cousin. Like cool Thomas is your cousin? Like yes. My first cousin. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yep. We don't we don't call cool Thomas though. We Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Right. I mean he's cool to my family too, but like he was de he like 'cause my mom's side of family is like very you know, the religio like so he's Deacon Jack. I don't know where they got Jack from but like he was like 'cause we went to my uncle's church or whatever, but he's Deacon Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Jack. But yes, I went to school. I'm I'm family with Thomas. Yeah, yes. Like I don't have to be cool to be family members with people. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): What studio can you say what studio you worked at when you went to LA? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: so when I went to LA, I worked for all small studios. I never worked for a big studio. Like coming to LA is how I put 'cause, you know, theoretically working at Avenger Studio, I'm like, yeah, they do all the creative stuff in LA and then we do all the grunt work. I'm like, I don't know exactly what they do in LA, but that I think that's right. Then I now I can work for a production studio and you know, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: we export to a video I'm like, okay, so I was right. I g I got more information. So I worked on digital not digital, Animated good times for Netflix Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: six point harness in the silver leaf, I think. and then next I worked on I worked on Invincible two separate times. The first time I w did an assistant editor training program and then I was broke post production coordinator, so I wrote off that in last September. that's at everything starts with a S. Hold on. Six point harness and then Skybound Entertainment. And then I worked on Al Roker has a PBS show called The Weather Hunters and that was at Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Splash Entertainment in Woodland Hills. and so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's where you let Jerry Lee, huh? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Darryly Bryce, yes, I worked with him. I actually interviewed him on my channel. Yeah, I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. He's been friend of the show. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: actually interviewed him on my channel and then he saw me doing my YouTube channel. He's You work in production? And so he advocated for me getting that. I got a script coordinator job. The most people Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): cool. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: y job ever in life. Yuck. It Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: was like herding cats. I 'cause like, you know, on the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Let the folks know what s script Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: It's the most hardest coordinator to be 'cause when I first got the job people were like, What's a script coordinator? I like, I don't know. Like I don't I don't know. I'll tell you when I figure it out. And so, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: you're I worked in the writing room, which I it was a very small production, so the writing room was like me and my story editor and executive producer and then we had like contract writers and so I had to like schedule meetings, I had to organize the scripts, make sure that they all had like good spelling, you know, read I had to work with my other production team, my production manager and the production coordinator 'cause there was only three of us on this production. and then we had to work with the vendor studio. Our vendor studio was IOM in Canada. Island of Misfits. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And that's the part that's the part where I I continue to like bang on the desk to bring attention Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): to it. because again, they just continue to outsource all this work. And so, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): like, when you when you see your talented friends and family who should be working at a studio or, you know, making money doing this in this industry. We just can't because that shit continues to leave the country. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: What's interesting to me as like somebody who since 2008 I've been like black woman animator, like your friendly neighborhood animation professional. what's interesting to me because I I'm like staunchly in three D, but like all these kids who are like continually going to college for two D and I'm like, What are y'all planning on doing for a living? 'Cause like a level two D animation is done overseas and don't nobody want to move nowhere. Yeah. mean now. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): YouTube YouTube. That's the only yeah, that's the only thing. Unfortunately. And I think that's where that's where Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And that I a lot of them do become like store bar artists or like character designers or something like that, but Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. But again, even if you're doing storyboards, they have one seat for storyboard artists. So what are you gonna do with the other two hundred of them? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): They get to stay home and go work at Subway. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's what sucks. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, 'cause at least with me going to school for three D, there were still like up until recently, there's still like a lot of the companies in the US that were doing three D in house. I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: mean and they still have vendor stuff vendor studios doing three D s work. Like, you know, I've seen Brazil and Mexico and all that type stuff, but yeah, I just it's just like a commentary on like, do y'all be doing research? Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. 2D's been I I Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: But Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): lived through I live through like the handoff between 2D and 3D when you know Pixar Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): was doing their thing and Disney decided to not do 2D animated movies anymore. That was a scary time for those folks Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, mm-hmm, yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): for the for the traditional animators. and now, you know, now that I get to do these videos and these Conversations. I I just had a chat with Yuppie from or Yupe from Yuppie Tunes. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): and he's he's he's kind of bringing back the old school way of drawing, but he's doing it in blender with grease pencil. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Okay, with grease cancel or yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And so he's able to tap back into some of those traditional Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): artists that are actually they they see him doing his thing and they kind of want to help. They would so Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I think the resurgence. If you're if you're a young animator and you want to do 2D animation, it's in your heart, me too. But Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): don't go thinking that you're gonna go to LA and do that. Like have your own property, have your own IP, grow that shit on Instagram and grow it on YouTube, make it happen that way, and then what'll happen is you know, someone will see it and then. Maybe it gets picked up or maybe you get a job doing something something in that. But as far as two D animation and the industry, like you said, you might have to pack up and leave. And if you don't want to. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. 'Cause Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Might as well pick up three D. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: 'cause I got my name in the cause you know, e everybody's like I want their name in the credits. I got my name in the credits two years out of college when I worked at Ned Order Animation. I'm like after that I like, All right, just pay me. It could be animation but just pay me. There's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: no that's not a goal anymore. I mean I don't even know i know if it was a goal initially, it just Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. For me, for me, it was, yeah, I want to see my name on a thing. And I I've had friends that have gone in into the studio system and they want to be directors and all that stuff. And I'm Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): like, why not just direct your own thing? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): If that's ultimately your goal, like go do that. If your ultimate goal is to work and you get because you want Disney on the resume and all that other stuff, you're gonna have to you're gonna you're gonna have to work twelve hours a day for six days a week. You're gonna have to work hundred hour work weeks and all that stuff. Like it is Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): a not it's not an easy path. And if you're not willing to make those sacrifices, it's not gonna be worth it for you. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: realized because I had forgot because you know when you're in your 20s and you possibly have all your optimism and then you keep you then you live life like yeah like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Life hasn't kicked you in your virtual nuts all Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: what I used to say in college like I wanna I want to bring smiles to people's faces that's why I went to get an animation Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: 2016 is when I was like this is this is how curmudgeon old people Cause when I went to sleep 2016, I'm like, I believe in the American people. And they failed me. And I just was like. All people just kept living and people have failed them over and over again. That's why they're curmudgeon. I get it now. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, yeah, and they get tired of your bullshit. That's all it is. All these old folks that you guys think are mean and angry, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, so I was like, November two thousand sixteen was my first foray into that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): they are fine. They used to be cool. Then they had kids, then they got bills. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): All the work got shipped out overseas. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You get fucking tired of getting kicked in the in the nuts. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: question of like whether it's your take on the industry or the the transformation. 'Cause like for me working in LA, 'cause obviously I worked for Turbo Squid which is animation adjacent, I worked for the state, so that was like industrial manufacturing. So this is my first time try like even though I never worked at like one of the big studios, like okay, I'm working in industry, I'm working in Hollywood. And you know, we something 'cause I every time I meet somebody a lay person and they're like, animation I wanna do I'm like, it's expensive first of all, just to let you know. Because Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: if people don't think like if you're doing live action you can use stuff that already exists. If it's animation you have to create it all. So that's expensive. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yep. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so working at these production studios, I'm just like, yes, animation is expensive, but the fact that we fail our way to the end of a T V show A movie or a video game is what makes it more expensive. 'Cause sometimes you're in these rooms and it's like you have forty years of experience. I cannot tell by the t by the decisions you make or like the w the way y'all let this and so it's like what are your what 'cause it's just like the it's more expensive 'cause the y'all don't know what y'all doing for real. Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. And everyone everyone needs to pee on the tree. You know what I mean? If the Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): project is the tree and you, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): you know, you're doing something and you submit it for approval or whatever, the Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): everybody's gotta put their finger in the goddamn pot. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Everybody. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I remember one time I was at a studio and it was the end of the meeting and we're like we got it. We like everybody agrees and then somebody's like, what if like bro? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Shut up, Gladys! Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: there and and the and the and the idea the suggestion is never a good one. It's just gonna make it worse. And it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: just like what is that? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Dude, there and and I can go on and on and on. Okay, so let's talk. Project managers. I I came up I d because you know I'm assuming your brain is like this too. You're good at a lot of things just because there's potential. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): So I was good at the animation part, I was good at the video part, I was good at the programming part and all this stuff, and so you could just give me a Photoshop file and I'll be back. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And then obviously Friday afternoon, everyone has to prove that their job needs to exist. So everyone starts making those dumbass decisions that you're just talking about. And then they just shit all over my entire weekend. And everyone is running around all stressed out and stuff. And I'm just sitting there and they're like, Why are you not more upset? I'm like, Why are you why are you upset? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You just shit all over my weekend. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And you're the one upset. you should be more stressed. I'm like, listen, bitch, I was in the army. They taught me how to shoot and throw grenades. A button isn't gonna end my life. We're Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: We're making cartoons. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): making cartoons. We're making websites. We're making videos. We just make a quick change and we hit render. Fucking relax. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Right. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You know, but everyone needs to prove that their job is important, that that it needs to exist. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Meanwhile, I was the only one actually getting a thing out the door. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You know, like just because you call answer the phone call and the client wants you to do so or wants me to do something, you're freaking out, but you get to go home at five or six. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Right. Hurry up and wait. Fires, little fires everywhere. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And then everyone everyone's always like, You're just not you're not you're just not invested in the project and all this stuff. I'm like, no, I just don't overreact like a child. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And that's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ha ha. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like because obviously it's not a hundred percent, but it's like okay, we all went to school for art. And so you have to like sometimes happen upon a good manager because in any of part of the entertainment industry there is no s culture of professional development. There is no going to a conference to become a manager or become a leader or to become a good leader. There is no training at a studio to be like, This is how you should get feedback, this is how you should like Do this and so it's that is added onto why it's so expensive and why nobody knows what they're doing because you don't even try Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: to teach people to know how to draw. I mean, like when I was in high school and college, and you know, I'm like lauding Walt Disney because at the very least he's like, Okay, Walt Disney is gonna ask you to do something crazy, but at least he's bringing in tires for you to draw. Like he's he's keep and giving you classes so you can like he's like Do something that you've never done before that you don't know how to do, but I'm gonna give you the scaffolding at least. But y'all don't give us the scaffolding. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. No. No. And it's all because well, up here is different. Up here in in specifically Silicon Valley, right? They they hide it. They make it look like it's cool. Right. So say for example, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I used to I used to do basically what it boiled down to was Business relationships. I would build business Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): relationships. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): so I would go to Airbnb and places like that. When you go to Airbnb, the building for Airbnb, they have this wall and they have everything from wine, beer, pop, kombucha, all the things. All Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): the all you can drink and all the day. And then and even down in LA, like I've been to Netflix animation, I've been to DreamWorks. Where they have lunch and you could just go and have lunch and they're providing you lunch and stuff like that. Everything is wonderful. And it make it they they make it seem like, look at all the perks, but what they're trying to do is keep you from going home. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Right. And I've worked at places where I'm like, if we could not have Nerf guns and a three D printing machine and you could just pay me more, that would be Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): The last my last full-time job, my last full-time job, we started in and up here it's you know, unless you're established and you're like Twitter or Adobe or something that you've been around. Generally speaking, you're you're it's a very startup culture here. That's why like that's why I love it here. Cause you have to be good at everything. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Startup culture. What were we just talking about? Nerf Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Nerf guns. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): guns. Yeah. Yeah. So we started in you know, a decent size office. It was only three of us here and we had a whole development team in Colombia. This dude, because he wanted to look all fancy for the clients, he got this beautiful office downtown San Francisco in the there's a neighborhood market. I forget what they call it, anyway. it's south of Market Street. He and Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): it was a beautiful office up on the twenty-something floor and all this stuff. And we had enough room for We can say fifty, sixty, maybe seventy people. So we had we had all these desks available for like six people. And then when you realize like Like my my supervisor was spending his own personal money to get all the equipment and stuff like that. He was supposed to get reimbursed. Long story short, he didn't. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And then when you realize that this guy was spending so much money just to inflate his ego and look big in front of the clients and stuff like that, instead of actually paying us what the hell we're supposed to be worth. And then everybody's getting laid off and stuff because I can go into Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: With money. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): that too. I can go into that too. Boy. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: feel like last year or the year before I kinda arbitrarily looked up like why does the tech why does the tech industry make so much money? And my takeaway was because they deem it so like like I feel like a lot of startup like even with AI and all this stuff, I was I like the tech industry is a high level multi level marketing scheme where people are trying to be at the top and make as much money before their company fails. And then they start up another company and they can sell it to somebody. Like even with Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: AI, you know, with a lot of the companies realizing that it you know, they're being sold a hella beans, like or magic beans, it's like they keep saying AI is the future, but you you're not proving it really. You just keep saying it, which is the American way. Like to like just say it and don't prove it at all. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so it's just like that's the benef that's how Like obviously there is a white supremacy, but that's how white guys get taken advantage of because if it was a black or brown person you would make them prove everything, like have all the statistics, like Nike Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: could get funding after being open for like one year, but if you're a black person or a brown person you gotta be you gotta be liquid you gotta make a profit in like two years and Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: then you gotta show that you have a profit for five years, but then When it's AI and stuff, this white dude can just say something and then you and then you buy his product and then you got taken advantage of because he's white and you believed him. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And how many times how many times you guys have to listen to these people say, Hey, everything that they're promising is not true. It's Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): not the case. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And it's just like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Okay. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: y'all set up a system to be Marx. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And then you're like, white supremacy manufactures your op to be dynamic. Like, so you make us prove like you make us be good in like less time and then you make us prove ourselves, and then we're like better. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: That's funny to me. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's a racket out here. and now, just so everybody knows, all these high rollers, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): they're starting to move to Dubai. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm 'cause Dubai is Texas Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): 'Cause that's where all the crooks go. That's where all the crooks go. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: on steroid. Everything's big in Texas. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: When I went to Dubai in twenty eighteen, they're like, This is because 'cause what I what my understanding cause you don't when you go to Dubai you don't meet Dubai people 'cause they're all rich. And so you meet a bunch of people from Pakistan, India who are Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like there's like six dudes in apartment together and they're sending all their money back to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: their families. 'cause they don't have jobs in Pakistan or in or like wherever they're from. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And then they haven't seen their families in like six years. But you never meet people from Dubai. And so 'cause they're all rich, they like they struck gold or struck oil in like the seventies, but Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: they were like I guess nomadic people before then. So they don't really none of their culture currently n not none. But some of their culture it's not actually what they c their culture was 'cause they were like eating snakes in the desert. And so they're just Like America like I it was so interesting 'cause we w I went on a trip, it was like all packaged together, it was like two hundred and fifty black people going to Dubai. And I remember we went to the yacht thing and I'm like, Ooh, what food are we gonna get? And it's like hot dogs and like chicken nuggets and I'm like, Where's the Dubai food? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): No, you gotta go to old Dubai. The new Dubai. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): New Dubai is beautiful. I mean, when I was Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): there, I we're stuck in traffic and I look up and there's people ziplining over traffic. I was like, what the hell? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You know, it was pretty wild. But yeah, we went to old Dubai, like where the the the spice market is and the where they soil. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): There's so much gold there. So much gold. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, you're right. Like all those folks there, people in Dubai, the ones that I got to talk to, everyone gets the government gives them money. If you're from Dubai, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): you get money. So anything if you wanted to work, you can, and it's just on top of whatever you get from the government. But these folks Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mhm. And I heard foreigners can't you can't retire you can't like just live you can't die in Dubai. Like if you if Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): No, no. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: you're a foreigner you gotta leave. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And if you and if you don't have a job, homelessness is illegal. So if you're not from there Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): and you don't have a job, you take your happy ass back home. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah, but they believe like all those workers and stuff like that, slave labor, all the things, all the things. It's not, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): you know, over there because of the grand nature of everything. well, now from when I was there, I was there in what twenty twenty-four, probably, twenty-three, something like that. Anyway. folks there were saying that Dubai wanted to start basing their economy off of something other than oil because apparently I don't know if they're running out or whatever, but Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): they're looking at business and tourism, they want to switch Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): their economy to that. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Which is why they keep building out on buildings. This is the tallest twisting building. This is the tallest interlocking building. This is the tallest like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This is the biggest frame. It's a building that's a museum. And it's a frame that shows you the other side of, you know, if you're on the south, you look through the frame, you see the north. It's the future. If you're on the north, you look through the frame, you see the the the history. what was that? The the biggest water fountain, connected to music, timed to music. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Hello? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And everything is that. Everything is that. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And the thing is when I was teaching English, it's like, of course I have goals in life, because if I didn't, I could have just taught English a couple more years and then I could have been teaching English. People are already starting to teach English in a UAE. All I gotta do is deal with some bratty rich kids in in Dubai, but I they gonna be paying me bank. I could have had a substantial savings account, paid I could have paid off my student loans much earlier, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: but no, I went to college for something that I passionate about. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And you're supposed to be making money. That's the thing. Like folks you can't I can't really say folks with money don't have the creativity because that's not fair. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): but folks with money, d I I think it's ridiculous to think that those of us that are creative and that we make things and maybe we're financially challenged. I think it's horseshit that our stories don't get told. I think it's horseshit Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): that we don't get to do our cartoons, that we don't get to tell our stories just because we don't Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): have money? What? Who's to say that the people Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): with money aren't dumb as hell? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Well, it's being proven that and that's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, for real. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: another thing of like me being this evolved person is that my original self was like very heady and like let me do research and data. But from watching other people, it's like the doers are the ones that are doing everything. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: because if I am too heady, I suffer from analysis paralysis and now I'm not doing anything. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Right. Right. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: so And then I'm like, okay, trial and error is a beneficial. I don't have to know everything I can learn from doing. And 'cause I in tw twenty sixteen I created a hashtag for my year called hashtag action and execution because I was like, You keep reading fifty books and not doing a damn thing. Do Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: some shit. And so, I've gotten much better with actually doing, but I'm like, doing is data too. It's not just reading or like whatever, doing is data. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I always talk well not always but I saw a really good TikTok where the dude broke it down where when the first Iron Man when Tony Stark was creating his first suit and he like he's this very smart dude but when he went up into the stratosphere and it froze, that gave him data for later when he defeated the guy who stole his suit because Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: even if you're so smart and you and you you can know that when you go up this high it freezes or whatever, but you can also not think about that in battle battle. Because he actually did it, he has the muscle memory and the experience memory. So now when he's fighting the villain and the villain is in his his first suit, but he know he created a new suit that'd be able to go up high, he can use that information to defeat the villain. But like we you know try s some of us intellectuals who try to rely on thinking of stuff but sometimes even if you have like last year for me was very much like I've always I've always known two plus two equals four, but then I'm like, three plus one equals four too. So it's like I have the same information but I'm just looking at it from a different way and it it it comes with it comes up with different conclusions. Like I know this piece, I know this piece, but I'm like, but it go it applies in this way as well. And that sometimes it's doing the thing and not just thinking about the thing. And so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I've tried to evolve as a person of like not like even as a woman, like I had to train myself to trust my intuition. Like, yes, I'm analytical and yes, I would like to be like, I did this research and this is why my this but no, my gut has data. It's it might be too quick Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: for me initially. I'm like, this is too quick of me to make a decision. But now I'm like actually make great decisions except for, you know, moving to LA before the pandemic. But I trust myself so I don't need data to trust my gut. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. I I love that. Cause I'm I'm Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): the same way. I you know, depending on the situation, obviously, but for the most part, I don't care. I will put myself in situations whether or not they're difficult because I trust me. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I have put myself in those situations. And like if there is ever a studio head that listens to this conversation, look, bitch, that's why you hire us old folks, because we have been through it. Even though you're gonna be saving money up front hiring some kids and no hate on kids, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): no hate on kids. We need Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): them. But if the bottom line is all you're worried about, go get yourself a bunch of you know let me say it like this you know how much money I made off of these idiots hiring people in Costa Rica that then ruined Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): the project, and now you gotta pay me one, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: To fix it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Now you gotta pay me. one and a half to two times what you should have been paying me in the first fucking place. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yep. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): But because you're trying to be cheap, you let those clowns ruin everything that you're working on and now you have to pay Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): the idiot tax. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes. Yes indeed. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): So now that animation is leaving the US and the history or the the future is going towards AI and stuff like that, like what are you what are your plans for the future? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So I'm moving back to Michigan next month. I've been going for twenty over twenty years. and so one thing that I would love 'cause I've been t I've been talking about micro content for some time and then now there's the idea of verticals, and mm hmm and then I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Like those mini dramas and stuff? cool. Do you write? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: felt I feel like I'm not I don't claim I'm a writer, but I've always thought if I got into like spoken words or something like that, I'll be bombed. 'Cause Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: even sometimes when I do my little personal TikToks, people like how I put words together. so sometimes I'm quirky in how I have a conversation at even so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I think I I but my last ex was a writer and I do respect the craft of writing to know that it is actually a skill, but Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I feel like through trial and error I w I can figure it out. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: but you know Detroit has this like hood movie culture on TV Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and so I wanna like kinda whether I get involved in it or like use that as a springboard to like 'cause I also I'm passionate about indie stuff and there's this woman, Kanikra Dion, who She was actually a scientist. She was in sciences and she live she's from like Alabama and she moved to LA and she actually just got her you know, she had got her job transferred just to work at a lab and then sh because she was living in LA, she you know, all the people were doing the skits, she started acting in them and then she started doing her own skits and stuff. And years later now she's back in Alabama and she she has like over five million subscribers on YouTube. She she's a black woman. She does like teen content, which is very needed these days 'cause don't nobody be catering to the teens. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: so she like I saw her when I went to the Oscar Michael Film Festival last year. she she was supposed to do two talks but she only did one and I went to her talk and she posts on three times a week and sh like her the teen actors that she used, she makes them start their own social media and YouTube channel and trains them on that stuff. So I would like to use her model of like you can do stuff in a smaller market and just just trying to figure out how can I how can we do animation for like a a cheaper thing 'cause you know, the mo the auto industry is big in Detroit, but we need Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: something else. And there's something like technology and bio biomedical and all the stuff that's going up in Detroit. But like if we could like get some type of artist because we're the only like UNESCO city of design in the world. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: so just kind of like using the what Detroit already has and like using my innovative thoughts and trying to like create indie content and like maybe create a little sub industry that mirrors Twilby or something like that. And and even like I've thought for ten at least ten years of like like the c idea of like a franchise, like how can I create a system by which people can thrive outside of Hollywood and just tell people about it and then we're all just in like Tupelo, Mississippi and and like like this random city over here. And we're all like doing this model, whether it's like Patreon or whether it's, you Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: know, Tubi or whatever, and it's like how can I make something successful and be like, you can do it too And so that's my plan of like trying to lean into the indie space and Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and just take just give me a little sixty, seventy thousand dollar job, get not have to find a job every five seconds and just do my stuff on the side. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): For real. For real. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So like I just really passionate about and teaching and stuff like that. Like I that's been my secondary passion alongside with my animation industry career. I've been teaching since like twenty thirteen and stuff. And so I even have a different way that I th think that I'm trying to create a methodology by which something I realized some years ago was I I had these shirts, for my black woman animator. I had like a well it was like a bouncing box, you know, that's the first thing, your bounce ball Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and it and then the my generation there was the song Bully and so I did I put like ball in and it was like the bouncing ball and so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I was shooting some footage in New Orleans pro I think it like right before I moved here or something like that. And I'm I I I played basketball post c high school with guys but at that point when I was shooting the footage I hadn't played basketball in a while. And so I was like, let me get The two corners, the two wings, and the and the top of the key make for footage. Took me way longer than I would like to admit. But something that I realized was like I wasn't discouraged really. I was tired. But I wasn't discouraged and I'm like, okay, there's a there's this piece of like sportsness where I knew that I can make the shots and I I knew that I couldn't make the shots at at the clip at the expediency that I wish because I hadn't practiced in a while and I'm out of shape and all stuff. But I'm having that same trouble with digital sculpting. So how do I change how do I transfer my stick to this with like what I did there and I transfer that to my art and and be able to push through my sculpting. So I'm trying to create a methodology where it's like coaching over teaching art. And so I've done a lot of research on like 'cause 'Cause i for example in in basketball there's beef, balance eye, elbow, follow through. So when I was younger, a young kid, I used to sit outside at my hoop and I'd be like, grab had the ball, do this, balance, elbow, eye, follow through, and I would just do this over and over the fundamentals. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So that was fundamentals I was cool with 'cause I'm like I'm a shooter, I'm trying to increase my shot. So what is the beef of like sculpting And so I'm trying to like I have a lot of I have a Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: very long I didn't know I didn't realize that Google Docs had a limit. so I have a very long Google Doc of like different drills. I'm like trying to bring the sports mentality Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: to art. And so with for anybody who's ever seen Karate Kid, when he's like wax on, wax off, paint the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: fence, and then he's like you are you're not teaching me how to do anything and he's like wax on wax and he's like, shit, I learned karate from like doing chores and so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ballin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I'm trying to think of a methodology where you can sneak up on it like because for me fundamentals is boring. Because I'm so smart, like easy Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: stuff is hard and hard stuff is easy for me. And so I'm trying to think of like dr like how can you do drills or something or like some type of methodology where you can learn when you can wax on, wax off sculpting. And I can teach Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: people sculpting. Because there's obviously there's a l lot of people who don't have as much trouble, but but not that they it's easy, but they're pushing through it. And so I always when I struggle with things, I always try to learn how to do it so I can teach the people who struggle just like I did. for being like this analytical artist. And so that's that's something else that I've been working on for some a couple of years now. It's like thinking of this methodology where I can use my sports prowess to break through my at artistic obstacles, I guess. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): One of my buddies, Rodgon, he came on the show. I think we released a video last week, maybe two weeks ago now. he said it in a way that it it made all the sense in the world to me. I'm I'm like that. I'm pretty analytical and I like to just dissect something until I get it figured out. And Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): he said that for him, drawing the face or draw just drawing in general. Is like problem solving. He had to, you know, he didn't he didn't come out the box fucking drawing. He Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): taught himself. He started drawing at 18 and da-da-da. And now he's just a wonderful artist. But he made the realization that for him, it's almost like Almost like an algebra problem. And he just goes through his recipe. Indeed. All Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): right, here's a circle, here's a teardrop, here's a thing, here's a thing. And then all of a sudden Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): there's a, you know, there's a baddie riding a dragon and clouds and all kinds of stuff. You're like, son, what the hell? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. And that's why, with me being a professional and learning like all the like fundamentals 'cause if you have your tool bags tool b bag of like fundamentals then that's that's what I had my tool bag of. I couldn't make the shot, but I knew I could because I've done it before. And so that's what I need to build up Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's just it. That's it. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: for sculpting. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. That and that's a big one too. young artists, it's gonna get to the point where you're gonna go through your fundamentals and then you're just gonna get busy with life and work and everything. You're going to forget the things that you know. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It's just gonna happen. But then you can go back and you know, I went through Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): we cleaned out the garage a couple weekends ago and I found my compass and I found my triangles and my rulers and stuff. I was like, so boy, I know how to use these things. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: that's another thing I want to get back into. Well first I learned like I need to because I'm about the product, I'm like I need to concentrate on the journey. Is it has to be the journey? I 'cause Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I'm thinking about the product and getting like, this is ugly, whatever. But Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: after I I in when I got well my contract ended in September thirtieth last year, I was like, All right, I'm gonna read the artist way. And I'm not gonna because I have a bunch of friends who have st tried to read the arts way they did it in groups and stuff like that. But I'm like, I am really good at being accountable to other people. I suck at being accountable to myself. So I'm gonna do this by myself. I'm not gonna tell anybody that I'm doing this. I'm gonna do this by myself. And I did it. Like I did the whole twelve weeks. I did my morning pages. I like because you know, reading the book, they'd be like, I continued the morning pages. I I again English was my least like I was like immediately stopping the morning pages 'cause like, yes, I loved that I realized like sometimes you like take in all these TikToks or these information and you don't download it and you don't say, What did I learn from the media that I consumed today? So that's what I liked about the morning pages. Mine were more night pages, but 'cause I'll be Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like, all right, it's two AM, let me do morning pages from the previous I I you're supposed to start the day, but I was like, this is gonna be me downloading my days. I'm sorry, I'm doing this Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: wrong, but whatever. And so I through doing the artist through reading the artist way and doing the morning pages artist artist dates and all that stuff, I'm like, I need to get back to my childhood loves of like I used to check out the origami books from the library, I used to crochet, I used to like I I have like a couple I started doing a cardboard collection 'cause I back in when I was a kid, I used to take like the my you know the cardboard from your your mom's pantyhose or like your shoe boxes and I used to cut up and make furniture, like little furniture, like model furniture and stuff like that with tape and cardboard. And I'm like, okay, through reading the artist way I'm like, I need to get back to my childhood stuff to kinda remind me why I fell in love with art and animation but also because that that that is a place where I allow myself to be imperfect. Like when I first learned how to like crochet, my my stepmom gave me a book at like ninety years old. I didn't make a scarf till College because again, I don't do easy stuff, I do hard stuff. So I'm a nine-year-old, and I'm like making house shoes, I'm making purses, I'm making and now they're lopsided. They're lopsided, but eventually I made a a really good hat. I made a I still got a purse that I made Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and stuff like that as an adult. And so one of my college friends was like, Can you make me a scarf? I was like 1920, and I made my first scarf, and I've been scrocheting from since I was nine. And so Like I'm like this if I make these like cardboard creations as I'm gonna call them, that's where I'm allowed to like not be perfect and do my little vertices and my edges and my extrusions and stuff. And then maybe I can scan them in and like and then do mixed media and and combine. Like I did this cardboard creation, I can scan it in, put it in a three D environment. Maybe I can start learning some two D stuff 'cause again, like Tut D, that wasn't my jam. Like 'cause it 'cause I 'cause I wasn't strong in my foundations, it felt like I was drawing stuff over and over again. Like I had one obligatory two D class in college, belabored it as far as I could, BS my way through it. I was just like, I'm just about to trace this live action video 'cause I'm not doing no two D And so and then when I was working in Korea, like visiting Carl all the time 'cause he would have to be fixing people's stuff 'cause you know, they hired just anybody and he'd like stuff they don't know how to animate and I'm like, ooh, maybe I want to do two D, but then I start doing it and it's like, ugh and so I wanna but I do want to push through the things that I don't like. I know sometimes in life you're supposed to concentrate on the things you're good at, but I, you know, I wanna challenge myself. So I want to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: do like some mixed media of like maybe I do a crochet thing and put it in my art or maybe I do a c origami or maybe I learn how to do origami in three D or you know, I just want to combine all the stuff that I used to love. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: childhood hobbies, start doing those again and then like take my the stuff I'm doing to the next levels. That's that's a lot as I go as I I'm new into my forties, I just turned forty in September tenth. this that's the concentration of my new decade. trying to actually become an artist. I am an artist, but Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I love that because there's a lot of there's a lot of art folks that I talk to that are getting back to, you know, they're stepping away from all the digital stuff and they're going back to analog. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I got I still got all my art instruction bo school books for I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: the young people, I don't they don't got commercials no more that they show, but the back in the day when they had to like draw a turtle, draw a pirate commercial. Yeah, so I actually did it. Like I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I did that. I got accepted into that school. I never went, but Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I actually did it. Like they I'm very upset they I did a really good drawing from a magazine of Alan Iverson that they kept. I'm like You could have kept my Avril Levine, but Alan Iverson could have let me kept keep that. So, and I have like I did I didn't finish it, which I told my dad years later, he's like, I never I didn't know you never finished it. I was like, 'cause it was like kinda alphabets, so it's like twenty-six lessons. And I like reached the twenty-fifth or the twenty-sixth, and I kinda like, all right. But I did get I did get transfer credit from it. So when I went to R A T. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Okay. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I had the seven college courses and then I had my art instruction schools and so I became a sophomore after my first quarter Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): hell yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: at school, which I didn't tell any of my peers because they are greedy, and like when you're a sophomore, you could do all debit. Cause you had you had to have the freshman meal plan, and so you had to go to Gracie's or like maybe another place. When I became a sophomore, you could do all debit, which is just like having cash, and so you can go anywhere on campus, but all those nosy ass black and brown people. They would have been trying to take my my my all debit. And so because I'm a freshman, nobody knows I have all debit. That's a sophomore thing. So I'd be like, All right, I'm about to go to dining commons, I'm about to go to this and then at the end Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Let us go. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: of the semester they would have like these boxes at the corner store and stuff. So I would just like buy stuff to donate at the and throw it in the box if I had stuff left over. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's funny. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, and school, just school in general, for me, because I went to one of those film schools that got busted for predatory lending Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): for me for the rest of my life. You'll see me on YouTube, YouTube university. That is it. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mhm. Mhm. Well I'm gonna try to get it more into Unreal too, so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah, yeah, yeah. Me too. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: That's another class I took while I was taking Charlie's class. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's where you if you're listening to this and we keep referring to someone by the name of Charlie, Charlie's my brother, dude. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): he's we're we're trying to figure out a time for him to come on. but yeah, Charlie is I've known him since film school and he's an incredible teacher and he's Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): super talented, all the things. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Incredible, like he would do the demonstrations in class, and I would go because I was un unemployed so or underemployed, and so I had plenty of time to play around with like Viscom and Weavy, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and I'm just like this isn't turning around like how Charlie's does. Like, I'm just like, what if I like particularly at the beginning, it's like he's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: doing he's making because he's d he does that as a job, so it's like he's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: making us do stuff, and I can't figure out how to make it do the same thing. what's happening? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): He was showing me Vizcom and stuff. just do like this, just do like this. I'm like, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right. And I made a couple of things that were cool, but then I was like, Man, I just I might as well just draw this shit. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, 'cause 'cause I feel like with taking his class, I learned a lot. But it was like I'm because I'm black, I'm trying to do new land I'm trying to do all every idea that I'm probably never gonna do of like black people, like one one product that I did was like, what if, I thought about this a few years ago. What if there was fairies but instead of pixie dust it was like seasonings? So that's one of the projects I did in his class, like cinnamon, coriander, like and so I created characters for each seasoning. And so I created like nuanced black cast. And so it was like dark skinned, masculine presenting lesbian, albino, and the that AI gave me the blues for the albino and the masculine present because like obviously I got I wanted her to look for the masculine presenting, but each time you do a prompt, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: it makes her look more feminine. And I'm like, I don't want her to look feminine. I want her to look masculine. And so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: that's a sucky thing. It's like, man, I'm gonna draw this now. Or like the albino Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: one, because it's he's albino, they keep creating a white man or white woman. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And it's like, Yeah, don't like nuanced black people on this thing. So That was what was frustrating me. Like there w like I the first character I did was dark skinned woman and then I like maybe seven characters later I did like a dark skinned man and I was like, you know, make him darker and it was like it refused it was like I was like make him hexadecimal, da da da da da it then like make him blue black. I'm like, well that was that was they took that literally. That is very culturally Okay, that's my fault. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Folks folks don't understand that. I g I make I make white people nervous when I say that shit. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I was like, Okay, blue black is a very nuanced term, my bad for that one. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I'm like, it's just it's the same thing as blue white. Like there's some folks out here that are so goddamn white, they're blue. You can see their s their fucking blood. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Translucency. Subsa sub s surface scattering. but yeah, like I it was like it was like a good fifteen prompts. And I just I just, you know, there was a setting where you could do the like exposure, the like, you know, the Photoshop things of like I'm like, bruh, like you did the dark skinned woman, why can't you do the dark skinned men? So that's what frustrated me about it, is like I'm trying to get something very specific and it's while it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: it's getting me to a certain point that was quicker, it just was like This just makes me want to learn how to draw again to play. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So that's what I'll be doing. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, the future is wild. The future's wild. but like I I remind folks, it it it's for me it's an it's going it it's a scary position that we're in because it's so new. Everything I'm talking technology, I'm talking social media, all the things Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): it's so new that we don't we don't know what to expect. But If you're an indie person, if you're indie animator, indie filmmaker, whatever, whatever, there's no better time. There's no better time. Everything is approachable. Things are affordable, software, but Blender alone, the fact that Blender is a 3D package that you can do sculpting and 3D modeling and motion graphics and and now it's editing and you can do grease pencil that like and Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): it's open source. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: the most interesting thing in regard to the people younger than me is that they're still in this pitch to the studio type mentality and it's like you have a film camera in your pocket. Like I 'cause I came like Easter Ray is my generation. I was watching Arc for Black Black Girl live and in person and you know, with the with the with with me talking about the childhood hobbies of like imperfection, that is what like black and sexy T V, Easter Rae, there was like this place in there's these ki students in N North Carolina, Greenlight Productions, Dormtainment, all these people on YouTube who were creating these T V shows and these movies What I realize is that your audience will give you a lot of grace on the visual if you have a good story. Cause I'm watching stuff where it's like, bruh, why you got the the beep? First change your battery. But why do you got the beep in the in the background of your film or your TV show? Like you could have edited that out or something. Or it's just like, you know, you're watching something, it's like, why didn't they reshoot that? You could have reshot that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah, yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and so but I still watched it and it was still enjoyable because it's stories that like, you know, with young people dating or young people trying to do whatever or just young Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: people trying to have fun or make people laugh and stuff like that. And so I realize like they will like even if you take animation versus animator, that's stick figures. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, yeah, and it's wonderful. And it's wonderful. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes. And so people are tr like because we have taste, we're like, it has to look like this, but it really doesn't. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): No. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: That's why the all these like random people, like with the dude who does Afro Animation Summit or, you know, the woman who did black woman animate boot camp and all this stuff, it's like people not in animation be doing more moves than people in animation 'cause we think we gotta do all this stuff and it's like they just doing it 'cause they don't know what they they don't have this like these mental prisons of like art or I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: have to do it this way, they just I don't see anybody doing it 'cause they're not Googling. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Like I interviewed over a hundred black people and people like Hispanic people and Indian people and so you not Googling if you don't see nobody. But anyway, but they are, you know, moved to create something but we it's like we just go from group to group, Discord to Discord, WhatsApp to WhatsApp and like we should do a thing, we should do a thing and then nobody wants to take leadership 'cause we all went to school for art. It's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Well listen. I got ti I stopped. I stopped because I'm I I'm like that. I I need to have a project. Like if I wanna draw something, it Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, mm-hmm, uh-huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): it I need to know like Yeah, I I mean it it makes it easier to have something to work towards for me. I Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): like having projects, I like having a to-do list, I like doing Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): that and I'll keep my feet moving. But I stopped reaching out to my creative friends because one, either They're lazy or they just got beat up by a studio or they're just not in any more. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I'm just I a bad teammate will derail the whole thing. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): So I'm at the point now where well, now I'm kinda working with a couple of friends of mine that never even went to film school. They just want to learn, you know. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. And that that sometimes is easier than going with artists. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Hell yeah, dude. Yeah. Especially if you're stuck on I really need to pitch to the studios. You know that the studios go on YouTube and they're looking for the new properties on YouTube. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah, I don't have any desire. That's the that's the thing now. Like you can't just pitch a idea no more. You have to have already an audience and then all the people in the animation industry are shy and all this stuff, so they don't even want to post on social media or talk to people. So do you actually want to be in the animation industry? 'Cause this is a networking thing. like when I being in LA f out of the four jobs I've had, three came from my network. And luckily when I was in New Orleans and I was like I was doing like little side things with the Urban League and you know, volunteering. I was like, All right, I'm trying to get into these pref pref professional development leadership programs and because I'm in animation people don't even know why I wanna do this 'cause people in animation don't typically do this. So I'm like, maybe I'll try to see. I ca I have a network, I just don't use it. Let me try to see what this does and so I got into the w Young Leadership Council, leadership development program because I know somebody I knew from the Urban League and then I was in that program with somebody for the New Orleans Economic Development Ambassador program and I I kind of did more nuanced. I was like, Alejandra, I'm thinking about applying. She's like, You should. I was like, I I know I'm applying. And so when my first session, she's like, I fought for you. And I was like, okay, so I used my network and then I'm reading through the bios and like everybody else is like, I go to work and go home. I'm like, I'm in animation, I volunteer for like four organizations outside of my job. Like, why did she have to fight for me when all these people you know, they'd be having spots for people, sponsorships Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: and stuff like that. But it was like this person literally goes to work and go home, but they got in. And then something that pissed me off, in that New Orleans economic development, I wrote my bio because what I realized cause I look younger than I am and I look much younger because I was in my twenties at that time and so people think I'm a student. And so I'm like, okay, I gotta put that. I w worked on Family Guy Twitter show I have to do that in networking events because people think I'm a student. They're not talking to me 'cause they're like, what does she do? I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm an adult, damn it. And so I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ha ha ha. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: put that in my bio. I'm reading through the bios. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Does it and your buyer does it say I'm an adult damage? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: No. I feel like I my my visual face has apparently is twenty-eight to some people now, so that's definitively adult. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: my I I don't know, people don't see my gray hair. I'm like, this is forty year old gray hair, but whatever. people can gray at any age. And so sh I was reading my bio, the lady that put the ball bios together took out my shows. I was so pissed. I was like, that's how people D me as an important and Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Right. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: it wasn't it wasn't that my bio was too long. There was people with longer bios. I was just like, Why would you do that? Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: why did you change my bio? It it still grinds my gears. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And t taking out taking out my flex. Get the fuck. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes! That's the most important one. You could have took out anything else but the actual shows that I worked on. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And she said she was gonna redo it, but then she never did it. was like What was the point? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So yeah, I s luckily I started using my network because you know in New Orleans is very much what high school did you go to? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Very much what's your last name? Very much are you light skinned? Like so you like people don't care about what you went to Harvard. Like that's the when I was in the YLC LDS program, that's the first we had the center the CEO of Entergy New Orleans, was just the power company. He was our first speaker. He's from New Orleans, he's like, I went to Harvard, don't nobody here cares that I went to Harvard. It's like you who you know, who your people is. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so luckily I practiced my networking muscle and then it helped me when I moved to LA because only the assistant editor trainee program was the only thing I applied to and it was like, Okay, I got it. other than that was my network. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. It's not what you know, it's who you know. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: huh. Or who knows you? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Or who knows you? That's why that's why DEI was important. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Man, during George Floyd, I was like, please hire me because I'm black. Like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I could damn it. I it still took me two years to get right re break into the industry. I had to use my network and I had to massage my network. That's when a lot of people don't realize. Like, it's not just having a network. I had to kind of have five different conversations with the person that actually got me, helped me get my job. 'Cause he was 2D and he didn't think he could help me. I'm like, I'm willing to be a PA, like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: To help me. You done gotten jobs for everybody that you know in this industry. Help me. And so I just was like, please hire me because I'm black. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I'll take it. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Nobody did. I'm like, y'all just yes, performative. 'Cause I know I can do the job. Won't you hire me? Please Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: performatively hire me. Please. God. So that never happened. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I was like, this is my time to shine. Melanin. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. If any time in hi well, no, I can't say that. I was gonna say if Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: well. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): any time in history it should have paid off, but there's been there Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Man, right after like Reconstruction, right after black people got freed, when they didn't realize how, like, cause so you you know, I'm sure I think there's somebody got a book from Slavery to Senator, 'cause we learned how to read that that like post slavery reconstruction, they was like, they are we gotta stop this. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): They have potential. Wait a minute. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So that was a great time 'cause they had then realized like, they can r learn to read really quickly and then become sett politicians. We gotta do something about this. So, yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, for real. And it still hasn't even really changed all that much. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's why we gotta build our own stuff. That's why we gotta do our own thing. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: love I w I would love to be able to go back in time and like not actually be visible because I won't be a slave but like be like know how it was because I just I just know for a fact that there are some one to one things with how this society works. Like even the black cold slave codes where we could black people can't couldn't gather three or more. I experienced that when I worked at a previous company in Louisiana. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Where any time it was three of us they're like, looks mischievous. Like what are you all doing? Like, you know y you know this is racist, right? Or like, you know, people don't read the Thirteenth Amendment about like it isn't actually about slavery. So, school to prison pipeline, stop and frisk, slavery by another name. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): There it is. Mm mm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So yeah, I'm there are some stuff that is that I but I like even the I I think I've heard of the concept of like accounting came from them accounting for their slaves. Like the the way they structure Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Good lord. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: like every like people like when we say everything is based on race in America in the US, it is. Like even Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: old old black people liking butter becan ice cream, that's because it used to be illegal for black people to r eat vanilla ice cream. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): When we get off of here, I'm gonna show you, but one of the guys that I'm working with is Dutch Jackson. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Uhhuh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And he makes he he goes back and he picks those stories and then he makes it kind of like a supernatural interpretation of it. And Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): just a couple weeks ago, he he's got one called Butter Pecan. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And I wrote to him and I said, Hey, or I texted him, hey, how much of this is real? He goes, just take the magic part out. I was like, they used to vanilla was illegal. He said, Yeah, that's why butter pecan happened. I said, Good Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mhm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): lord. These motherfuckers. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Even like the s there's small towns where the there's this like siren that goes off on at noon and you know, you lear you lose the context of it, but it's like that's when like it was they gave permission for black people to go into town and shop and stuff like that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Jesus. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So It's everything is racist. It's just that it's become American culture or something. Or or Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It's crazy. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: so much stuff is from black indigenous people of like, you know, the Black Panthers was the reason we have like free lunch program 'cause they did it first. Ambulances, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: they did that first. Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. That was one of the things when I was reading through history books in in high school, I was like, Okay, so they abolished the Black Panthers when they were doing good things, but these clan members they're still and then that's what started getting me to like open my eyes to things. Then when I went to the military, I got my sergeant. My platoon sergeant was a black guy. He taught me a lot. He kept telling Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: You know about the black guy that created the cadences for the first cadence? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Tell me. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I I can't remember his name, but like a black man, the cadences that they do in the militaries to keep time, that was a black man. I mean i it w who else was it gonna be? Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It makes sense. It makes sense. Because marching is cool, but like when you got those cadences and you go and you have someone who knows how to sing cadences, boah. It's next level. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you if you go on social media they'll have if you type in like the good a s like a good string of words, it'll come up. I can't remember his name. but yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Just wrote that down. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And then they have the nerve to tell us we don't got no car. 'Cause they done ca they done made all the black culture American culture. So that's why you all know it's our culture. Cause it's now mainstream and social media and internet made it easier because now when we do the little dance trends on TikTok or if we do Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: any type of thing, it's like the the then the white kids start doing it and it's like, or or even the bonics, that's Gen Z slang. My uncle been saying this since the seventies. What is he talking about? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: That's and and you're telling on yourself because you're calling it Gen Z slang 'cause you ain't no black friends. Or you ain't got no black friends that's comfortable with you. Cause the white friends I got, I don't have to when I'm talking about white people, I don't have to be like not you. They know when I say white people, they know I'm not talking them. Or they Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: know I am. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Or I say, you what's up with your people? Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yeah. So 'cause so Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: there's a lot of people who think they got black friends but it's like you don't got black friends. It not if they if yeah, if Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, black acquaintances. Just because just because you work with one or two in the office, don't mean shit. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Or even when they come over like some 'cause we we know how to coast, you know, we know how to do some certain things where unless like I I'm giving up one of my secrets, but one way I know that a white person is comfortable and has and like be with black people is if they say black 'cause if they say African American, yeah you don't you don't you don't be with black. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, you don't. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: 'Cause it's like there's this like innate thing where it's like icky to them to say the word black and so African American Yeah, that's my tale. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. That's a good one. Yeah. And and yeah, those are the folks that I don't feel a hundred percent comfortable around. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Anyway, let's go ahead and wrap this up because I'm about to keep you on this thing for almost three hours now. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: huh. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): go ahead and let everybody know where they can follow up with you and make sure that you tell them about your YouTube channel and all the interviews that you're doing on there. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: So you can follow me at Black Woman Animator, B L K W N and Animator on all platforms, all one word. Don't type the word black, don't type the word one black. I don't know why I see because it's in the lower left corner. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Don't buy a vowel. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: It's like I type it the same everywhere, but people be spelling it wrong. The same with my first name. I don't know. Now that the the new a different world came out and they pronounced it Deborah, I'm like, now everybody gonna be pronouncing my name wrong. But yes. Find me on Black Women Animator on all platforms. I have a YouTube channel where I've interview people of color typically. I I don't really say that, but nobody you know, because they don't say when they do stuff, so I'd be like, I just do it. I just Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Right. Yeah. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: And so I've interviewed over a hundred black people, I've interviewed Hispanic, Indian all over the world. And then if you a are a black college student who is studying animation, I have a Discord. so you can reach out to me on Instagram or something and I can give you the link to the Discord 'cause when I went to college I was one of two black people in the school of film and animation major and I knew all the black people in the animation the whole the in the college of imaging arts and science. So I wanted to create something that I wish I had when I was younger because Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Right. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: I'll be on n not a lot of p my tombs I I always had to figure out what 'cause that's the funk now. But I was on my tunes trying to look for black people. I was on everywhere like, where are the black people? So I created a space for sport. I do like little workshops, like I do networking workshops. I had somebody come talk about social media recently. like w they were talking about the Gen Z stare on TikTok, so I like, let me I got a Discord so I can help at least a couple of them not be weird. So yeah. And yeah, I just doing a series right now on my YouTube channel called the Becoming You series where I'm trying to talk to the camera more. I haven't done interviews in a couple of years now. but it's you know, K through twelve, I was really quiet. Now I talk, now I've grown, I'm a I'm a leader, I'm you know, all these things and so when I try to tell k young people like you don't have to succumb to your default factory settings, that's kind of an empty statement. So I wanted to create this series so that if you know, I could come up with this multi part series and you could watch the videos like how did I do this? How did I do that? And I go through my stories and da da da of all the ways that I've grown as a person. So I'm still halfway through that as I'm moving. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Towards the new adventure. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Mm-hmm. So that is me, Deborah Anderson, the black woman animator. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Awesome. And we're we're probably now that we're connected, we're gonna we're gonna do a couple round tables and stuff. So we'll have you back. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. It's really good to meet you. Well, we already met. We've known each other for a couple of weeks now. Yeah, we're old friends. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Yes. It's like we go back to like four flight four flats on Cadillac. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Deborah Anderson, everyone. Thank you again for coming and hanging out, letting us know what's going on. Deborah - BlkWmnAnimator: Thank you for having me. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You are very welcome. And with that, everybody, we're out.