Latest / Rough Drafts - Exploring Creative Process - by BOUNCE / Sarah Bracken Soper // It takes time to be an overnight success
Transcript
- Danielle Townsend: guest is someone whose practice is almost impossible to summarize, which why it's absolutely perfect for the Rough Drafts ⁓ Sarah is a multidisciplinary visual artist based in Dublin, working across murals, embroidery, stop motion animation, zines, installations, ceramics, lino prints, you name it, she's done it. ⁓ And she has her high vis credentials. She is certified to work at heights and operate. heavy lifting equipment, which tells you about the kind of scale of the work that she is involved in. Her work is rooted in feminism, Irish identity, social justice, and what she describes as art as a tool for change and recovery. She was commissioned to create large scale ⁓ climate action mural in Crumblin, built from a community workshop with local children. And you can see that on view in the archive. Her embroidered portrait of activist Alva Smith. was highly commended by the National Gallery of Ireland and she founded the Dublin Zine Fair in 2006, I believe. She's also a member of the Manaugh Collective and of Irish Artists for Palestine, wherever she finds time to do all of that. I came across her work when I collaborated with the Centre for Creative Practices a long time ago for a Culture Night event in 2017, I believe, so almost 10 years ago. And I was lucky enough to work alongside Sarah through her teaching career. What I want to talk to Sarah about today isn't the finished list of things I've just mentioned there. It's as impressive as that is. It's the process behind all of that. The community workshops that happen before the big murals go live and go up. The subject matter that she chooses, the medium that she chooses and how she actually tells the story of a community and what it actually feels like to make something that belongs to a community more than it belongs to you. ⁓ and what it means to make work that takes a position ⁓ and that doesn't just decorate a wall but argues with that wall. So Sarah, welcome thank you so much for being on Rough Drafts. Sarah Bracken Soper: Thanks for having me, Danielle. Danielle Townsend: So I'd like to start with where you started from. So your starting point, how did you get into design and creativity and art? Sarah Bracken Soper: God, a long time ago. I think I've always wanted to be an artist from when I was 16 years old, I kind of decided when I was 16 that that's what I wanted to do. And I immediately started working on my portfolio, went to art college and it just, it's been one project to another since then, really. My first love was really zines. And I think what I really loved about zines and still to this day, I'm always very... attracted to work outside of maybe a formal gallery setting. I kind of like work that's more accessible, that's less elitist maybe and that doesn't require people to go to a certain place to digest it. And I think zines and street art really are art forms that meet people where they are and they don't kind of require a degree to understand and they're very accessible to everybody. There's no censorship. there's a freedom in them and that's kind of what I've been attracted to. So I'm not really into doing exhibitions in gallery settings. I'm more ⁓ interested in public spaces and interacting with people in public spaces and meeting them where they are. Danielle Townsend: and just the Dublin Zine Fair. So you set that up in 2006, is that right? Sarah Bracken Soper: I started making zines in 2006 and I started traveling to other zine fairs around the world and in London and Berlin and the US and I just really loved the freedom of a zine and how you could explore your format and your paper and your technique ⁓ and then your subject matter as well and the freedom within that. And there wasn't much really happening in Ireland at the time and I think printing was still very expensive in Ireland as well so. There was the old school kind of punk zines with the photocopies down at Reeds and that's how I started. ⁓ With Baby Beef was my first zine, which I made with my friend Andrea Byrne. And the two of us would spend a whole day in Reeds over the photocopy machine, photocopy things. And ⁓ then stapling and hand binding the zine together. So there's a lot of love in that and we really wanted it to be accessible as well. So the zines were free. And we would bring them everywhere we went. We'd leave them in cultural spaces. We'd trade them with other people. We'd bring them up with us when we were traveling. And how we funded the zines or the printing costs was we used to put on fundraiser gigs. And that kind of led to me wanting to have a space for zines in Ireland to kind of build that community. I had met a couple of people. This was back in like my space days and I had met people through that. that were making zines in Ireland. And I wasn't on social media. I was very late to embracing social media. It kind of didn't really appeal to me. And I started the Dublin Zine Fair in 2011 with no social media at all. It was just all analog advertising. And it actually blows my mind now that the fair was so successful without having to use social media to publicize it. I did do billboards around town and flyering and word of mouth and, ⁓ the zine fair grew. ran it for five years and it grew and expanded every year. And it was fantastic to have all those amazing quirky people in the same place. And there was people from all walks of life and zines about every topic possible. And we also then started to exhibit the Forgotten Zine Archive. which I think now is in NCAIDA, I'm not 100 % sure, but this was an archive of zines all the way back to the 1970s Irish zines and was stored at the time in a squat on Paranel Street, think, Chomarus Brie or up in Mount I square. But that's long gone now. So I think, I know the custodians of the zine fair, one of them, a good friend of mine is now living in Brussels, so. I think they've handed the zine fair over to Nival. But we had that exhibited there and it was fantastic to look at zines made. My favourite one was Busman, made by bus drivers, for bus drivers, and photocopied, printed in 1983 it was. So that was great fun and that we used to do zine readings at the fair as well where people had the opportunity to read their Danielle Townsend: Thanks Sarah Bracken Soper: their zines to people. And it was a space for people that were maybe a little bit introverted and a little bit not so out there to have an audience and to meet their people. So that was a really nice thing about the Dublin Zine Fair. Danielle Townsend: And I think zines are so, like you say, it's democratic, it's so accessible. You can just pick one up, flick through it and see what the topic is about. And it doesn't have that elitism that you mentioned there. know, anyone can kind of pick one up. And then there's not only the topic that's considered within the zine, it's the craftsmanship as well. think there's a lot of love given to those little missiles, you know, and how they're produced and what... Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah, I see it. Danielle Townsend: the way in which they're produced, what that actually says about the content as well. So I think they just are just fabulous, fabulous vehicles and examples of creativity. Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah, there's definitely a shift in the culture. think initially zines were a way to just get information out there. And then when we had the internet and we were able to get information out there in a way, all that those subcultures could thrive online. So the physical zine became more about the object and how to explore that in an artistic way, in a design way, and in a freedom way. So that's what I really started to like. I went from the basic photocopy to then getting really into Japanese binding and different fabrics and different types of papers and then hand printing things and really celebrating the physical object and the tactileness of the zine because we could just talk about, know, subculture stuff online then. So the object became more important, what it was made of and how it felt physically. Danielle Townsend: you Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think it's going back to that now as well, that people are kind of looking for the analog version of things and just that kind of tactility as well ⁓ is really becoming more important than less important ⁓ now. And so from the zines and all the things you learned from putting the zine fair on, but actually making the zines itself, then where did you go to? Where was the next kind of media that you kind of said, I'm going to tackle now? Sarah Bracken Soper: ⁓ so I actually started making embroidery kits and selling them on Etsy and set up a kind of little embroidery business. Cause I really enjoyed the therapeuticness. I'm really drawn to, to handmade things and to painstaking processes. ⁓ the more painstaking the better. So I started, Yeah. And I think maybe I need that. ⁓ Danielle Townsend: Slow is good, slow is good. Sarah Bracken Soper: that downtime or that meditation of being in the process of making something. And there wasn't really anything in kind of craft shops that was appealing to me to make. And so I decided to make my own embroidery kits. And I did that for a good few years. And that was fantastic, sharing my designs with, I sold some embroidery over a thousand kits to 26 different countries. And that actually kind of funded me while I went back to college. did a... a Masters in Education in NCID. And I was doing my, going home then to pack my embroidery kits and send them off. And that kind of led me into exploring embroidery in another way. So then that's how I started making the embroidery portraits of women in Ireland that are making an impact on the society we live in today. So it started, I really became kind of politically activated in 2018 around repeal. And I think that happened for a lot of people because It was such a moving time and people were sharing stories that they had never shared before. It really, really touched me. I started to think, I think before that I just wanted to make art for art's sake and to have fun and what it looked like and explore mediums and things. But from 2018 onwards, it became more about activism and artivism. and making an impact and what the message of the work was. So the first embroidered portrait I did was of Dr. Siobhan Donoghue and she was a campaigner during her appeal for the terminations for medical reasons. And then that led me on to doing the portrait of powerhouse and trailblazer Alva Smith. And then after that I started doing historical, some historical portraits. I did one of Jenny Wise Power as well. So, and I have another one in the works that I can't tell you about at the moment, but as it comes up, like things are, I feel like since 2018, the political landscape has been just insane and things are just, it's a crazy time. And so there's lots to make art about and there's lots of issues to tackle within it. Danielle Townsend: And I think what I love about those two embroideries is I love that they are embroidered. I love that there, you you've created these portraits from thread and like thread is such a traditional medium, but it's it kind of feels very feminine. It feels, you know, domestic, almost almost kind of quiet. But it represents these. trailblazing women. And I just love that. just think if you had decided to paint them, they just wouldn't have had the same meaning. That was intentional, guess, on your painting. Sarah Bracken Soper: Absolutely, yeah. When I was in art college, anything with textiles, anything with fibres was considered craft and was considered women's work. I had an old sculpture teacher and he was very against anything like that. If we were exploring anything involving textiles, he go to craft college if you want to do that. That's not fine art. Don't be like, he was... Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Sarah Bracken Soper: And I remember being so annoyed at the time ⁓ because these techniques are traditionally linked to women that they weren't valued in a fine art setting. And that's why I really wanted to explore them and to depict women that aren't just sitting at home and being kept busy with their crafts. So yeah, it was really important for me to kind of reclaim that and put craft and put embroidery. Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Sarah Bracken Soper: right up there with painting and have it respected just as much. Danielle Townsend: And it certainly did that, you know, hanging in the gallery alongside the other paintings. you know, I think it was one of the only kind of, you know, different types of media that was in display at the time. You mentioned there, artivism as a phrase. Can you just kind of expand on or explain what you mean by artivism? Sarah Bracken Soper: Well, for me, I feel like my work really kind of borders on design and art. Sometimes what I'm doing could be considered design, sometimes what I'm doing could be considered fine art. But what I'm doing is always connected with an issue. So sometimes, like during repeal, I created pins that I designed and I sold those to fundraise for Together for Yes. And that's kind of where I started kind of doing ground roots. little interventions, little artistic things to fundraise with. ⁓ And that's built now into larger projects and mural projects and working with communities. And I also work regularly with the youth and community work students in Maynooth. And it's an amazing experience working with those people because they are in that course because they care and because they want to make a difference. And to be able to share with them ways that they can bring art projects in. to their communities and to their youth work settings that will benefit that community and that will, in so many different ways. So they can tackle topics that can be difficult to talk about that people aren't willing to really engage about. They can get lost in the process and sometimes people really need that escape and they don't necessarily have that in their own lives. to start working with something tactile and maybe conversations happen that wouldn't normally happen. So there's so much scope for art to help communities and help young people, to help them process. I think that art is really a human response and a human way to digest our experiences and to bring some meaning out of it and to give us some... some answers maybe or some closure. Danielle Townsend: Yeah, I think it can kind of it can help people make sense of the world when it feels quite chaotic at the moment, politically, socially, everything, it seems quite in flux and chaos. And I think art can actually help with that. And, you know. the idea of being so involved, intrinsically involved in making, like you said at the start there and the slowness of it ⁓ is like a process. And ⁓ finding that flow is just so, ⁓ so valuable for mental health, ⁓ you know, and so undervalued at times as well. But it's really can help people stay calm in these kind of chaotic times. And ⁓ just in terms of like, I suppose, You say that you're responding to a subject or responding to something that's happening politically because there's a lot going on. How do you respond to someone else's lived experience? So I know you've done work. with Focus Ireland around homelessness. And how do you actually respond as an artist to a subject matter that maybe is a little bit foreign to you, but you're kind of trying to represent someone else's suffering? Do you know what I mean? There's a tension there, isn't there? Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah. Yeah, I think in any project where you're working with other people and the subject is maybe closer to them or within their community or their environment, it's important to meet people where they are and not to go in with a lot of expectations and ego as well to go in and have this great idea, I'm going to do this and it's going to be amazing. ⁓ you have to talk to people and see what they want out of it or how they feel about it, first of all. And when I did the Climate Action mural ⁓ and Seagull House was the location that I wanted to do the piece, it was important for me that I knocked door to door to everybody there. ⁓ there's a youth centre that's right next to the Seagull flat and they would be in a lot of the the young people from the flats would go to Clay and do maybe workshops and stuff there. ⁓ So I met with Clay and was able to go in with someone that they knew. So I wasn't this stranger just knocking on their doors. I was going there with somebody that they already knew that it was, you know, it took away a little bit of the, ⁓ I know I probably be like, who's that? They're gonna try and sell me something. I'm not gonna answer that door. So that's kind of having a gatekeeper to kind of bring you to a community where you're less intimidating and less invasive and to just introduce yourself and say, tell them a bit about the project, ask them how they'd feel about the project. So the first thing I did with that project was I went door to door and I said, would you be okay with there being art on the building? And I think I went in there thinking they were going to be very negative and say, well, we need other things. We don't need money to be spent on art and kind of expecting a negative response. And it was the total opposite. Everyone said, yeah, we want to see more art. Why don't we have more art? Why do other Potter places have art and we don't? know, like people were just like so open to it and so... and positive about having art there and so interested in it. And I think street art and murals, particularly people just really can make change a place and can make make a landmark of the place and make it be something that they can be proud of. Danielle Townsend: And I think working with kids then as well, know, bringing them into it, know, ⁓ it's such nice taster, especially in certain areas where maybe arts, creativity, ⁓ design, you maybe isn't seen as a pathway, you know, or it's maybe seen as for someone else ⁓ and having like yourself like knocking on the door going, hey, do want to be part of this? That is an experience that will live with those kids, you know. Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah, was ages kind of eight to 10 was where I kind of wanted to talk to engage with for that project. Because when I was in primary school, I remember this group coming in and telling me all about the, was a big kind of drama show about the ozone layer. And it really stuck with me and I went home when I checked all of the products in the house and I told my parents not to buy certain things and And, and really kind of, think that was a crucial time in my development that made me more conscious of my actions and how I consumed and what I consumed and to be more aware and not to just blindly buy things. ⁓ and I wanted to reach children at that age that they would maybe it would change things for them or they'd it'd be a crucial time for them to remember the project and that might affect how they respond to other issues in the future. So it was fantastic working with the kids and kids are so open and honest and often a lot easier to work with than adults because they are artists. There are no barriers to their creativity. So it was fantastic working with them. and even talking to them about climate change and what they thought about it. they were very much like, it's all of our responsibility to take it on board and to do our part, which was really lovely to hear. Danielle Townsend: ⁓ Yeah, it's great because they're getting a chance to have their opinion and say it out loud, you know, as well, which is probably not always the case. Yeah. Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah, and to give them some pride in their area as well because the children that were featured in the mural lived in the flat so that like they that was amazing for them to be like 18 meters up on this big giant wall they were like yeah check me out like and they were there during Danielle Townsend: And then, you know, it's not going to be done. You know, they have such ownership of it because it's part of, know, they were part of the creation. Yeah. Sarah Bracken Soper: Exactly, yeah. If you have pride in your area, you're not going to disrespect it. And the same with the mural of Phil Innit that I did in Cromlein as well. That was a real black spot for littering and dumping. And when the mural of Phil went in there, that stopped because people love Phil. And they had pride then in that spot and weren't going to disrespect it. Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Bracken Soper: like areas that are disadvantaged or areas that are dumped in or are disrespected, that attracts more disrespect and more dumping and more... So really the community group here in Cromlein, we're called Bloom and Cromlein and I'm member of it but I'm not one of the main organizers but they are just fantastic and they've made such a difference in the area and they've gotten people together that would never know each other or speak and... It's been brilliant that the arts has only been a small aspect of it. There's been so much planting and there's a community gardens, there's a weekly litter picks and just being visible and showing that pride in the area has made such a difference. Danielle Townsend: And art really can be the thing that's signpost to people that something is changing. They can see a big mural on the wall. They can see that there's activity happening and that can be really galvanizing for a community to kind of see, actually we do get nice things. It's not just, as you said, the posh areas, but there are nice things happening right here in my community and I want to be part of it. Those kind of murals, the big ones that you work on, are usually funded from various sources. So does that change what you can say or your own license or does it that even factor into it? Sarah Bracken Soper: So far I haven't faced any censorship with my murals. The main thing is that it goes through official channels and it's approved, the design is approved before it's put in. I think the main problem that you face with Dublin City Council is if work goes up that they don't know about and they haven't approved. Even if it's like a private setting you've seen with Subset and the David Attenborough piece and things like that. They just kind of want a heads up and they want to approve something. And I get it. Like I think 2009 me that wrote my thesis on street art and graffiti might've had a different opinion. But now I understand a bit more. I wouldn't like to see a big far right message go up on a wall here in Cromwell. So I think I understand a bit more now that we need to. Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Sarah Bracken Soper: have people's engagement and let the community decide. Like when I was doing any of the designs that I've done, I always go to the people that live close by and the roads directly around the area and show them the design and say, are you happy with this? Because they're going to see it every day, you know? So it's not about me and what I want to do or what I want to impose on people. Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Sarah Bracken Soper: It's what the people want and what they're going to enjoy and what's going to change their everyday life. And I've had messages, so many messages from people and people coming up while I'm painting to say, this is fantastic. I'm coming out and I'm seeing these vibrant colours every day and it's changing my life and it's changing my day. Like it's brilliant. Thanks more of this, you know. Danielle Townsend: I suppose you have a personal opinion, know, a personal point of view. ⁓ know, it could be perceived quite a political ⁓ point of view. And you mentioned not wanting to see a big far right illustration of on the wall. ⁓ And like you kind of tackle quite big issues with your work, you know, and the topics that you kind of are tackling, you know, women's rights, homelessness and Palestine can be polarizing at times, they're not neutral topics. Have you ever felt kind of any pressure or gotten any backlash or felt that you had to, I don't know, soften or kind of change your political position in the work? at all. Sarah Bracken Soper: I have gotten horrible online abuse for several different projects in the past and the kind of the first time something like that happens to you it's very scary but I think you become a bit hardened to it and you realize that the people that are saying things online probably never would say that to your face and it's only ever online it's never in real life that you get this kind of abuse. But I think for me, I'm definitely still learning myself because ⁓ I've been doing a lot of reading recently of, do you know, the Hope and Courage Collective and all of the reports and ⁓ stuff that they put together to really be less, I don't know, a bit more controlled about how I present maybe certain opinions or, and not just expect people to. respond the way I would respond, you know, and just be a bit more understanding of where people are coming from and how they're viewing things. ⁓ But at the same time, I feel a huge responsibility to speak up because it is important and there is really horrible things happening in several different parts of our lives and parts of the global community that we need to stand up against and that we need to speak about. But I don't want to create division. And that's a fine line. And there is a lot of conversations that need to be done. If you've read like in the Hope and Courage Collective, there's the biggest percentage of people in Ireland, 64 % of people are persuadable on these issues. They're not one way or the other. So it's important to have the conversations and try and be to listen as well and not just lecture people. But when it comes to certain things, they're in the area here in Cromwell and there's been stickers and things put up and with horrible messages on them of hate and fear mongering. Particularly there was one where it showed victims of femicide and victims of violence. A friend of mine, my close friend was murdered in 2006. So this is a very, it's very, it's very close to my heart, obviously. So when I see stuff like that, I think about the victim. I think about the victim's family. I think about the victim's friends seeing that. ⁓ And I just won't accept that. So I created stickers that were more inclusive with it. ⁓ Danielle Townsend: you Sarah Bracken Soper: with an Ireland for all kind of welcoming Ireland with a solidarity message and covered those up because I just couldn't leave those. Like to use a victim to push a political agenda is just not OK in my book. So I guess that's probably quite polarizing maybe. And I feel like it's ⁓ it's something. that I couldn't leave there, that I couldn't leave a victim being used like that in a public space, for even their family to see or someone to see. When you're not expecting it, I know like my friend's image has been used in certain campaigns on femicide and things, and when you're not expecting and you don't know, and I know I've spoken to her mother as well, and she's been upset and shocked when... Her daughter's image or name is mentioned in the media without her consent. So people need to really to think about like these things. I think sometimes it's just a story to people and they don't realize they're real people and that there's, you know, all the people that love them are still there and they're horribly impacted by seeing that. Danielle Townsend: But it is, it's so important, use your voice, ⁓ know, ⁓ use your to communicate visually where you can because not you, who? Do you know what mean? It's kind of that thing of like, you know, can't always ⁓ that someone else is going to do ⁓ good work. ⁓ so ⁓ so important that you do. ⁓ you speak about your ⁓ kind of your membership ⁓ is it a membership with the Irish artists for Palestine and the work that's done there? Sarah Bracken Soper: I haven't really any ⁓ negativity over support for Palestine, really. ⁓ negativity comes on feminist issues and comes on ⁓ femicide and it usually comes on ⁓ and ⁓ issues like that. ⁓ I'm a ⁓ of ⁓ Against Genocide as well, that be kind of where I'm ⁓ most active. ⁓ I don't know, just, I have two young kids myself and having seen what has happened to so many children over the last two years, it's just been, I just can't not talk about it or do something. Just for my own mental health, I need to get out to the protests and just try and do something. And I think I had heard somewhere that the antidote to despair is action. Danielle Townsend: Mm-hmm. Sarah Bracken Soper: ⁓ So that's what I've been doing. Things I've been doing have been quite small, the movement and the activists. There's so many activists that are more active than I would be. My friend Karen is on the ground crew for the Flotilla and ⁓ doing so much work. So many volunteers, so many people giving their time to promote and to protest and to... be a voice for change. And there's so much that we can do. And I think Ireland, we are a very influential country. think particularly on the Palestine issue, we have so much power to start other movements in the EU. Danielle Townsend: And then I suppose that leads on kind of to, you know, whole idea of like women supporting women. And a lot of your work is really around, you know, feminism and women's rights, which is where you're getting most, unfortunately, most of the trolling. But. then you are also involved in the Mannau Collective. So you might just explain what the Mannau Collective is. Sarah Bracken Soper: So the Monarch Collective is a collective of female and non-binary artists. There's about 20 of us, I think, altogether. And I'm only a new member of the group. I've joined in the last year, but it's been going, I think, for 10 years. But it's, I think, originally they formed the group because... The street art scene had been very dominated, male dominated, and could be quite intimidating for a female person to kind of get into that scene. And we have a WhatsApp group together and we kind of give each other support and a lot of professional business support as well. So. if we're going for a job and we need like certain things or we're not sure how to price something. It's a really good community to be able to be honest with one another and to help one another out and to share information, share industry, insider knowledge and things. So the main thing is that we're really supportive of one another. We raise each other up and champion each other's work. We also kind of share at work as well. If there's a job going and we can't do it, we'll pop it into the Monogroop and someone else will take that on. it's a fantastic group to be a member of and the artists there are just amazing. They're just amazing in every way, in their talent, in their time to give, helping one another. And they're also... all very politically activated and engaged as well. Danielle Townsend: good bunch of people. heard Holly, Holly Pereira talking about it and saying just on a very simple level, it's actually when you're on the street and you're actually, you know, producing a mural on a wall, it's even just to know, you know, where there's a public toilet, you know, because you're out there for hours and hours and hours and just things like that, you know, and just actually having the kind of having a collective of people around you to kind of make you feel secure while you're working is, is Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah. Danielle Townsend: really such a valuable thing. it's kind of, I suppose you don't think about it until you're probably on the side of a street somewhere exposed a little bit and, you know, maybe vulnerable. And then, you know, at least you have your friend. Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah, it can be a very isolating career. you're, I spend most of my time in my studio here on my own. So to have that support group, they're like my colleagues, but they're not here physically, but we do get together and do painting and jams together. But to have that support group is really amazing. And to even have each other to, if you need an extra pair of hands as well for a job, if it's a huge job. to help each other out with the actual physical painting as well. It's a very physical job. It really is. It really takes a toll on the body. ⁓ And particularly in Ireland, I've seen artists that work in other countries and they come here and they're calling off the day of painting because there's like a wind. Danielle Townsend: Mm-hmm. or a bit of rain. Sarah Bracken Soper: And we're like, ⁓ you might not get your painting done if you don't just get out in that weather because it's always like this. It's crazy weather and you'll have four seasons in one day or one hour even. So we get weathered a lot. So we often chat about how much we hate pebble dash and how much it always rains when we're out painting. Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Sarah Bracken Soper: It's a great support group and to have someone to chat to and a colleague that understands the whole process of what you're doing and running your own business and all of those aspects as well. Danielle Townsend: And then the probably is it the biggest one that you've done? The Focus Ireland, the shine a light campaign. Is that the largest one? am I wrong? Sarah Bracken Soper: I don't think so. The Crumblin Climate Action one was probably the biggest one. Yeah, probably is deceiving. In photographs, things don't look as big as they are, but that was 18 meters high, so it was really big. The one in Templar Bar, we were restricted to the size of the music center, the wall there. The mural went up just up from where Focus Ireland's cafe and where they first started. Danielle Townsend: ⁓ it's because, okay. Nice. Okay, wow. Sarah Bracken Soper: So that's why that location was important for Focus Ireland to have it kind of where everything began. Danielle Townsend: And that went up overnight, didn't it? It kind of went up really quickly. You might talk us through, actually, I'd love to know your process, if you could talk us through the process for creating that piece, it'd be brilliant. Sarah Bracken Soper: So that piece was a paste up and there was a really tight deadline on that. It needed to go up before the Shine a Light campaign for the sleep out. So I was actually teaching in Maynooth that week as well. So I was in Maynooth during the day. I had to do it at night time. Barra's crazy face ⁓ night time to be working. ⁓ ⁓ was up a boom lift ⁓ ⁓ Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Sarah Bracken Soper: the work is created digitally and then printed and then it's like a wallpapering process. So it's a bit more, there's a less kind of time on site, I feel. ⁓ When you're doing something with paint freehand, you need to sketch it up, there's a lot more time. ⁓ Whereas with a paste up, you can spend your time in the studio with the overall design and then it's really just the labor of getting it up in the space. And you can do that quite... quite quickly and it was Joe Caston that actually taught me that technique and showed me ⁓ what I needed, the equipment I needed and the adhesive and all of that kind of stuff. So that was really, really kind of Joe. And any artist in the scene in Ireland is so open and welcoming and happy to share and help one another. I ⁓ haven't really encountered anyone that's been... guarded about their process or reluctant. And I don't think those people go far because you really do need to share and to help one another. So I'm always, whenever anyone asks me anything, I'm always really upfront and honest about things. Sometimes I think artists and students that I taught in graphic design have started to do murals and things and they... sometimes they'll get in touch or ring me and they'll be like, how much should I charge for this? And it's good that we do that because I think sometimes when artists first start out, they're like, oh, I'll just do it for free because like, I need a portfolio piece. And I think that really just devalues the whole industry for everybody. So having... Danielle Townsend: I totally agree with you. think like, why don't we talk about it's so Irish though that we can't talk about money, but like it means that people are totally, you know, low balling themselves and not getting enough money doing things for super cheap because it's like, it's a great gig. And like, you know, the savvy clients know this, you know, they kind of say, oh, you know, you'll get great exposure or we'll pay you properly for the second job. You know what I mean? It's just like, why aren't we talking about that? Sarah Bracken Soper: Often they're prepared to pay what you should be paid and if a novice artist kind of gives a lowball figure, they're like, yeah, excellent. And then they think they can get away with that the next time. So it's good to talk and that we do that a lot in Monarch Collective as well and just be upfront about things and kind of keep the standards up so that we can all actually have lives. Danielle Townsend: Exactly. Exactly and survive like, know, it's, you know, it's not for the love of it. It's, you know, it's job as well. But the amount of work that you do that's like, like in the in the eyesight of the public, you know, is there is there a difference between that the public work that you make? Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah. Danielle Townsend: and kind of being out there and exposed, exposed to the elements as you mentioned, like kind of quite, quite vulnerable. And then the work that you make in private, is there a huge difference in the kind of the content, the way in which you work or, you know, is it kind of just about creating it in the studio, designing it, drafting it in the studio and then just pasting it into the public's realm basically? Sarah Bracken Soper: I'm doing a lot of painted murals lately. ⁓ So I do always have a process in the studio where I plan things. I'm not one of these people that shows up and just has paint with them and just goes crazy on a wall. I like to have a plan. So I do work in the studio. I have a drawing tablet that I usually physically draw on the tablet. Sometimes I like to, because of my love of print and old school analog, techniques and stuff I like to maybe do line up prints here in the studio and scan that in and then bring that into my mural designs and things. It's definitely different when you're creating in a public space as opposed to in the studio. You can be more comfortable here, can be, spend a lot more time when you're in a public space. It can be really hard with the weather. You are... getting lashed on or getting blown to bits. So I do like to go into those situations really, really prepared so that I can minimise the amount of time that I'm out there. Whereas in the studio, I can just spend as much time as I want. I think my goal going forward is to be able to create pieces in the studio that I can then bring into a public space that can be installed quickly. where I'm not up a boom lift for like 10 hours in the rain. Maybe that's just my, I'm getting older and I'm thinking like, is that sustainable? But I've been getting into, I actually applied for the Agility Award, which enabled me to train with a mosaic artist, Elaine Bronte, who's actually become a really good friend of mine and she's great crack. And Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Sarah Bracken Soper: ⁓ The two of us were at a site visit there yesterday for, we're up against each other for a stage two, a public art commission. But we're going into it as friends and I'd be delighted her to get it and vice versa. ⁓ But I've started in Mosaic and that's something that's really painstaking that I work on here in the studio. But I like having that space and that meditation and that quiet time here. ⁓ And then when you're in the public space, there's not so much of that thinking because it's distracting and it's hard and people are always interrupting you or asking you to come and paint their house and or I could do that, you know. Danielle Townsend: Or you missed a bit, did you get that a lot? So is there like a project or that have refused to work with from your own values or your own ethical point of view? Sarah Bracken Soper: Yes, I have definitely turned down work and not participated in certain things. Like I think in the last, since 2023, I've changed everything about how I consume or how I work or who I work with. I think before 2023, I would have been like a job, great. Whereas now I'm like, who is this person? Who were they affiliated with? Where has their funding come from? And I'm just doing my research before I jump into something. ⁓ And I think that's, we all need to be doing that. it is important to question things or even just to say it, like when you're taking a job, because if ⁓ places are having no problem ⁓ booking and they're having no problem people to work with them and there's no even mention. Danielle Townsend: you think that having that ability to kind of decline is a privilege? designers are ⁓ not paid well, creatives, usually in general sometimes are not paid well. ⁓ And as you a job comes in, you're just that you've got a job that you've got. some money coming in. Is it a position of privilege to be able to say, I'm not happy with your set up for these reasons and then therefore I'm, you know, I'm not going to take the job. And I wonder, it difficult to have ethics as a creative when, you know, maybe the jobs are bit scarce. Sarah Bracken Soper: For me, it's more important that I'm in tune with my values than whether I make loads of money. Like money has never been a goal for me. It's never been something that, obviously I have bills to pay and I'm not like a rich person. My parents never went to university. They were working class family. and I think It's a privilege to be an artist in the first place. And it took a long time for my family to kind of accept that that's what I wanted to do, because that's not what you did and that you're wasting your time going to art college and things like that. And I think hopefully with the basic income for the arts coming in, it is very minimal. Like there's only 2000 people that will get it. And that's across all art forms. And I think people don't really know that, people that are given out about it online don't really realise that that's for playwrights, that's for writers, that's for musicians, that's for visual artists and so on. But hopefully that will remove certain barriers to pursuing that because I'm only full time with my art in the last two years, but I've been working as an artist for 20 years. So I was always working. other jobs. I've worked every single job under the sun. I worked as a baker. I used to drive a van for South Dublin County Council and do horticulture. I'd cut the grass on roundabouts and stuff like that. I don't resent that background because I feel like those things really, every job that I did really taught me things and gave me respect for and hard work and for different, gave me a view of different lives and different perspectives. But at the same time, it was really difficult to pursue a career in art while you're working other jobs. And I think that only gets harder the older you get and if you have a family, it's even harder. So to be an artist in the first place, it is a privilege. But I don't think accepting a job that would be connected to something really that would conflict what my values would benefit me in the long run really at all. I'm happy if someone doesn't want to work with me because I think that everybody deserves human rights and the same human rights, then that's okay. Danielle Townsend: I think this narrative ⁓ of the starving artists doing everything that you can to bring in some money to become a full-time artists feel like that has to change and the basic income from artists, is a starting point, but I think, needs to be expanded because people become great artists overnight. You know, that's a long timeline of doing all different types of jobs in to your skill and your craft to become the incredible creative that you are today. Do you think we're losing people of the net of the creative industries because they just simply can't survive? ⁓ Sarah Bracken Soper: Absolutely, absolutely. ⁓ In the 20 years that I've been a visual artist, I've seen other artists and creatives leave every year. Every year there's more people going to other countries, to other places. ⁓ And I've seen art spaces and cultural spaces disappear as well. There was a, during the recession, I felt like there was a few places popped up. I think sometimes during a recession, artists will find a way to make work and to make work happen. And there was places like the super fast building on just off Capella Street and things, buildings that weren't being used that were temporarily became art spaces. And there's great creativity that comes out of that. But if it's so temporary and there's no security there and there's no funding there. There's no space for that to grow. And a lot of my friends have gone to places like London because they can, they feel that they can work as a full-time artist straight away. And they don't have to do as much of the dual life there as they do here. And the cost of living here is just crazy as well. Danielle Townsend: you Yeah. you're thinking of, security for the future, it also ⁓ excludes people from certain socioeconomic groups. You know, it's just not viable. it's the thoughts of maybe, you know, operating for a number of years ⁓ and not really able to live, for your family, your future, all types things. it's not on the table. ⁓ And I think from the design point of view, I we're really not then representative of as a design community. If we don't have the voices as designers at the table, you know, if they're not involved as a design community, I think it's a real ⁓ lacking and it's that really does need to be addressed to bring that kind of diversity. and diversity in every ⁓ thought to style to background to lived experience, bringing all of that in to the community actually makes it much richer. it would great if ⁓ the ⁓ for to get into the creative ⁓ sector ⁓ were ⁓ broader and wider not so narrowly focused. Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah. And I think, like the basic income for the arts when I was reading through, I read through their documentation, they do talk about artists' mental health and their quality of life as well. And it was good to see that, that they recognised that because even if you come, even if you decide you're going to go for it and you're going to take that on board, if you don't, if you're not from a wealthy family and you don't have money behind you, It's incredibly stressful to have the unpredictability of that, of the career. And for example, I, last year I spent a really long time working on a proposal for a public art commission. I made it to the stage two, then spent a huge amount of time on that stage two application. You get 500 euro for your stage two application. spent probably six weeks on the application, getting technical drawings done and getting quotes from people. like, it was a lot of research and a lot of work. And then it was down to myself and another artist and it went to the other artist. And they said, oh, it was really close, but it went to the other artist. And you're thinking... Okay, well, I had to pay 500 euro for the technical drawings and I've spent over two months on this project. And yeah, so you lose money. there's not, it's so unpredictable whether which project you're going to get. And that's why a lot of artists end up doing more commercial murals and things because it's a good, it's a good income earner. And it's not necessarily. Danielle Townsend: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Bracken Soper: some of the jobs that you might take on in maybe an office or a corporate setting is not really necessarily your artistic goal or really important to your practice. You just have to do it because you need to pay your bills. So I know I've really struggled just with the unpredictability of it. And even when you do get paid for a good job, you're kind of afraid to spend that money because you're like, when's the next job? When am I not going to get paid for that? Or sometimes you're working on something for a year and you might see the money at the end and just to be the type of person that's okay with that. I'm not, I'm not that person. I definitely stress a lot about it and have all my spreadsheets and I'm very organized kind of list person. So I do struggle when I have that bit of unpredictability. And I don't think that's doable for everybody. it shouldn't be like, because you should be able to choose art and design as a career and not be in a situation where you're worrying every day. You should be able, I think in the basic income for the arts as well, they were asking about, you afford to be in a gym? And cause... Danielle Townsend: Mm, exactly. Sarah Bracken Soper: One part of the application is a survey that's about your quality of life and how you spend your time. Do you have time to exercise even? And I think if people are honest, it's gonna be very different from someone that works in a regular job. Yeah, the kind of life that you have. But if you do have a rich dad and you have... Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Bracken Soper: a big inheritance there or something like that. Imagine you could just create and you don't have to worry. So there is those barriers for people. I understand why people that aren't super rich would not go into it. The unpredictability. I think you really have to hustle as well. Like you have to do several different things and Danielle Townsend: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Sarah Bracken Soper: That's not easy as well, because you've got, I always feel like I'm the internet browser with like a million windows open. ⁓ But it's all part of it. Danielle Townsend: But that hustle as well is like, you know, it's something that most creatives aren't really... aware of, you know, so it's the hustle to, you know, find new work, you know, network with the right people, get the jobs, put the proposals together at great costs and time. And before you're even doing any of the work, right, you're doing like, you know, we were talking earlier, you're talking about like, you know, if you quantified your day, 20 % of it is probably actually doing the thing you really want to do. There's a whole machine and engine that kind of goes into, you know, keeping the lights on and such. Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah, yeah, it's definitely 80 % business and admin and probably 20 % then actually creating artwork. And it wouldn't be like within one day, like sometimes you have like months of admin and then you'll have like a few months of creating and you're like, yay. And then you have to go back to the application process and all of that. And I think if I didn't, if I wasn't design savvy and I wasn't able to put together documents and Danielle Townsend: and you ⁓ Sarah Bracken Soper: ⁓ And for my applications and create images and predictions of kind of what things will look like and create budgets and timelines and things. ⁓ would be impossible to work in this as an artist. And I don't think people really realize that, that they think that you're just this person that's just floating around like with... Like, they haven't seen my spreadsheets and my list. Danielle Townsend: It's a serious excel. And as you're, you know, completely entrenched in the world of tenders and commissions and, you know, proposals, what's the what's the kind of climate like right now? Is there a lot of work or is there, you know, a lot of work that's unreachable because the expectations are too high? Like, what is what does it feel like right now? Sarah Bracken Soper: ⁓ I can only really speak for myself. I think the avenue that I'm going down is more the public art, percent for art ⁓ avenue, as opposed to more like commercial murals and things. I'd rather be working on a project where it's really painstaking and long. Because I do love that process. I don't know what it is with me. I just love being in ⁓ a project where I'm... immersed in really labour intensive work. ⁓ But yeah, I see myself going that route rather than being out in the weather painting every day. ⁓ So for me, so far this year, most of this year has been spent on applications. I've done 14 applications. I've had four rejections so far. I'm waiting to hear on the rest and I've made it to two stage twos. So that's this year so far. And for instance, the site visit that I did yesterday that was for a public art commission, I made it to stage two, five artists in the country. There was over 80 people that applied. So it's highly competitive and you kind of have to be okay with getting rejected. That gets easier over time. There's certain projects that... that aren't easy to be rejected in. There's ones where you've really become personally involved or personally invested in like a passion project and those can still hurt. Like I had a bad rejection last year where I really was like, ⁓ really heartbroken over it. And I thought I was over that because, you know, I've been doing this for a long time and it's part of the job. When I'm getting the email, I'm almost ready for the regret to inform you line. But it can still hurt. But I think that's important for people to share that process as well and share that information because you never see that. People don't really talk about their rejections. They just want to put this front forward that they're doing great. Everything's great. ⁓ Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. No, it is important to speak about the reality of it. know, like 14 applications, four rejections, two second rounds. You know what mean? Like that's what it looks like in practice. Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah At the same time I don't want to scare people away and make them not want to pursue their art because I have absolutely no regrets and I'm so happy now that I'm full time at art. It's what I've always, always wanted. But it is difficult. But it's worth it, I think. Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Mm. But that's I don't think you have. I don't think you've scared anyone. But I think in this kind of, you know, Instagram, TikTok, quick content world, everything looks easy. You know, everything looks like, ⁓ yeah, that's fine. Do this, this and this and hey, success. So I think it's actually a really nice kind of ⁓ reality check to just say it out loud, you know. We'll end on one question, which I kind of try to ask everyone. So. For Rough Drafts, it's really all about the things that are unresolved, the things that you're still thinking about, that you're still questioning. Is there anything in your practice that keeps coming back that you either a project you want to work on, a client you want to work on, or a response you want to have to something that you see in the world? Is there anything that's bubbling under the surface or has been there for a while? Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah, have had this idea for a stained glass project and I have the glass, I bought the glass, it's all there ready to go and I haven't gotten around to doing it. And I feel like sometimes you have this, when you get this idea, there's a window where it's possible and you're really excited about the idea. And you really need to jump on that because if you sit on something for a while, the enthusiasm and the excitement and the will, it peters away. So when you get that inspiration and you get that idea, you really have to jump on board and go for it. Don't sit on, my advice would be don't sit on an idea for too long because it will fizzle out and you won't have the same passion or the same interest in. Danielle Townsend: you Sarah Bracken Soper: in achieving it. Danielle Townsend: Great. Sarah, this has been a fab conversation. I've loved it. And I'm dying to see what your next project holds in store for us all. I'm sure it'll be up some scissors lift somewhere around Dublin. I'll have to take a walk and tour of maybe Crumlin for different sites that you've you've activated now at this stage. But thank you so much for being on the podcast. Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah, no problem at all. probably one last thing that I will leave on is ⁓ when you're talking about rejections and you're talking about the application process and stuff, you might spend a long time on an application and it might get rejected, but you could end up using that proposal again for some other project and you might tweak that and change that. And I think working with Elaine Fronti, when I got the agility award and I got to work with her, She's like 20 years ahead of me in her career and to see an artist that's 20 years ahead of me and what they've achieved and what they've learned from that has been amazing as well. So I'd really encourage people to connect with people, connect with their peers, connect with people that are ahead of you, connect with people that are doing what you want to do. And people are usually really open to helping and giving advice and... And it's really insightful and it will help your practice to create those relationships. So thanks. Danielle Townsend: Yeah. That's great advice. I always think that success always leaves a mark, you know, follow the breadcrumbs of success for the person that's ahead of you that you want to emulate and just connect with them. People are people just, you know, saying hello to someone and, you know, and having a conversation like that. As you say, you've become best friends with, you know, with people from those connections. Sarah Bracken Soper: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and remember to pay that forward then as well. Joe Castlin said that to me as well when he taught me the the pace up technique. He was like, you teach someone else now and you pass that on because that's what it's all about, you know. Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. ⁓ it's been great. Thanks, Emil. And best of luck with the next stage two. Sarah Bracken Soper: Thank you for having me. Yay. ⁓