Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Revisiting Downton: More Enneagram Insights from the Abbey (Part Two)

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Revisiting Downton: More Enneagram Insights from the Abbey (Part Two) · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey friend, welcome to part two of our Downton Abbey Enneagram throwback.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sharing a conversation that I had with my sister Annalise as we dove into the details of these beloved characters all before the first Downton Abbey movie came out in 2019.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: We had plenty of laughter together, and I think a couple maybe misguided or misunderstood character typing moments.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: But most of the conversation really has so many insights that still ring true today.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Again, even though this conversation was recorded years ago, before any of the Downton movies had premiered, it's truly fascinating to see how each character's arc reflects the same storylines we live.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Moments of victimhood, seasons of villainy, the courage to rise as a hero, and the wisdom to eventually guide others.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: And now, as Annalise and I celebrate her upcoming little one by seeing the third and brand new Downton Abbey movie together, it's a reminder that both on screen and in real life, our stories keep unfolding in beautiful, unexpected ways.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to invite you to dive into this part two of our Downton Abbey and Enneagram revisit, where Annalise and I begin the conversation talking about the Enneagram type threes.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, here's the thing.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm gonna say Thomas, right?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thomas the bear.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, the footman.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, total.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: He knows how to work with the system manipulator like nobody's business.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: He's deceptive, narcissistic, pretentious, vain, superficial, vindictive, and overly competitive, which is like the worst.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Of the worst.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that was his heart.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because he's had moments all throughout, though, the season where there's moments that you're like, oh, you like have pings of compassion for him instead of being like, you brought this on yourself.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, come on.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel sorry for you.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: You can throw the cement flower everywhere, but that was your own fault.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: But you do feel twinge in that moment.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: You do, yeah.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then his cohort in the beginning, I'm forgetting her name.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's I wrote it down, hold on.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Mrs.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: O'Brien, Sarah O'Brien.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because I could see that they they connect on the level of I could see her being on the more reserved side of it.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: But she's not a three.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you what she is like.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: She's not opportunity.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: She does seek opportunity though, but I'll tell you why later.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's different motivation, I feel like.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: But the other one that I there's two characters that I go back and forth on of whether they're a three or a seven.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: As I was like thinking through the show, different motivations.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because you have Henry Talbot, who is he doesn't come until season six.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: He's he becomes late.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I go back and forth whether he's a seven or a three.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: I put him down as a seven.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: His thrill, his love of adventure.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: He's definitely in the wave stance.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and he wings eight and he can take her on.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I kind of went back and forth.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I could see him being able to, he has the industriousness and the efficiency and that compelling charisma that I feel like are gifts of the three.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: That I was like, oh, I don't know.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, but I think we'll talk about him as a seven.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: But for now, Thomas Barrow for sure.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: You and I agree with that one.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: So the other three, and I'll just throw out this one.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: He was not on very many episodes, but James Jimmy Kent, remember him?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: He was the footman that was promoted.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually don't remember.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think he left, but he was he was so focused on success.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And he he was in it to.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to even remember what he said at one point, but someone said something.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: You're just a footman, and he's I'll show you.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna be just places in the world.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going far.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: But the other two, the first one, again, someone who I don't really care for, but Sir Richard Carlisle.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, one of Lady Mary's suitors, she was engaged, they were gonna get married.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you nail that one for sure.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and again, we're just gonna say not the best of the qualities.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: No, yes, but like it how amazing, how interesting for writers that they have to, in order to have an interesting story, you're gonna have to have that level of unhealth and that villainous aspect.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: But like all of us have that ability.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all of us have that, like the dark.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Some authors put it as like the dark side, the hidden side of the number, the hidden side.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: But that brings that makes the show interesting.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Does it does?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to have the antagonist.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: You do, otherwise, why would we watch it in the end?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: It just has to resolve itself fairly reasonably.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, I think that Matthew Crawley had better parts to play, and that was that.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: We can't blame him.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, the last one, and I'll be curious to know if you agree with me.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Had a tough time on this one too.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: But Lady Cora Grantham, Lady Cora Crawley of Grantham.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: I should clarify that.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a lot.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: She's so many states.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Grantham.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, let's just say that's confusing.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: But Lady Grant.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: The token American.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: The token American.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: I go back and forth because I had her down.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, I can see her as a one.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: I could see her as a three.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: I could see her as a nine or even a seven.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: A seven.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I was wondering too.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's different lines that I feel like, oh, she she loves that thrill.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: She loves fucking that system.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: But then she also senses this.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: She wants her daughters to excel and have success.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Gets very frustrated.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't see her necessarily as in an assertive stance, but at the same time, all the time she takes on her mother-in-law, she's stupidly assertive.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like she is, she's actually more cutthroat than a lot of other people because she does it really under the surface.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So true.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: So she's and this is where the manipulation piece comes in, where she's manipulating events ever so subtly for the love of her daughters, for the love of her estate, for the love of family.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so she's quietly working in the background.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I almost think that the demure, less assertive is just a cover-up for her truth.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Really underneath lying her is a desire and a motivation to assert herself into all of these.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because she really, I can't think of any time she really just sits back and just let have let anyone have their way.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: She and that's true.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: That is her way.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like even I was thinking all the way back to the first season when they find out that the two heirs have died in the Titanic.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And she's immediately thinking through of like the perception of people.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And what do you mean?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: She's highly concerned about what people will think, not only of her, but her daughters and the impact of that will have.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the other piece is how she deals with emotion.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Where there is never where she's an American who grows up with the ability to express emotion more than your classic English Englishman.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And yet she suppresses emotion all the way through.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Especially even when you when Lady Sybil passes, you feel like more other people are grieving more than Lady Cora does.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And she is, but it seems very below the surface, which is a unfortunate character trait of a three.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think you helped solidify.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm one over.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was so torn.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm two.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: These were the same arguments going on in my head.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: I just get to share them now.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's great.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're totally right.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have sufficiently covered the threes.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: So now we're moving on to type four.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: I did not think of anyone off the bat, and then I started doing some research and watching, and then I'm like, oh, of course they are.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: This is brilliant.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, not me, brilliant.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: The whole Enneagram thing is brilliant.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you think?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: The first one that came to mind as I was thinking through the characters was Edith's husband.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, Bertie Pelham.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: What was your key?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like just his expressiveness, his warm and compassionate self.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: He's like the only that's I feel like a four is the only one that could love Edith for all of her.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Quite honestly.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And to pull out and to see her beautiful qualities too.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think there haven't been many characters that could understand Edith quite as quite the a four who love finding unique things and being unique in themselves.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like his intuitiveness, his compassion, and his willingness to forgive.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think to me speaks volumes.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: But what was it that tipped off for you?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really interesting.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll realize why this next one I struggled with a lot, but I felt like he was very clearly a four who was even humble in his approach to everything that was given to him, his approach, love, relationships, and not because and not because he just was naturally humble, because I think he thought well of himself, but he wondered how he might fit in.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a constant question of where does he fit in this picture?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I think that's the struggle of a four, which this is why I struggled with.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm wondering, like, can yes, two fours can marry.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, two fours can be together, but I feel like they this is a perfect illustration of subtypes and fours.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas Edith might for sure be a self-preservationist four because she's constantly defending herself.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel like this is the struggle too.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Edith never felt like she fit in anywhere.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, she really struggled to find her place in the family.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Not only was she the middle child, but she had all these incredible talents and qualities and character traits, but she would constantly self-sabotage, which my four friends are gonna understand this.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I say this in all sincerity because I have a lot of four friends.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: We have this conversation a lot about how they inadvertently self-sabotage.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: They don't need to, but they have discounted themselves themselves from what they can do.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so they like do something to inadvertently thwart a relationship or thwart a job or thwart their dream, part of it because of their idealism and even a perfectionistic tendency.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, this fear of not doing it beautifully enough or unique enough or all of that.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious to see what you think of Edith because I really did struggle with her too.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: But that's why I landed at a type four for both of them.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think because I had Edith as either five with four wing or four with a five wing, but thinking through even just a recent episode of her expression and deep feeling of grief and how she feels things so deeply.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And she's constantly annoyed with Mary that she's not feeling things.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that's potentially maybe a great connection of the sisters and how they interact because Sybil was the middle person between the two, even though she was the youngest.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: She could understand the feels of Edith frequently.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Though sometimes she'd get frustrated, okay, then then just do something about it.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, stop wallowing.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: You can do something about this.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we twos definitely need to work on being okay to be in the that melancholy and the feels and sitting in the totally with others instead of going and doing and fixing it or trying to fix it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, she I could definitely see that because she struggles with being moody.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: She's self-absorbed.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: She and Mary struggle with their own self-absorbed self-absorption.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in a unique way.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: For yeah, for different reasons.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And for different motivations, I think there.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, yeah, that lady Edith, the way you articulated it, of just the way she processes and feels things that she I can see and be convinced that she's definitely a four with that the motivation of the why.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: She's a deal feeler.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And she maybe brings that perspective that, like you said, she struggles with not feeling able to fit in.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: She couldn't do the medical stuff of the war.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: She had a struggle always with a purpose.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then later on in the season, with the being an editor and working with the journalism, that she finds her niche.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's this exciting, she's come alive in this place, new role.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I agree.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah, she is definitely a complex character, and you see her line of stress and growth come about in the one and the two and the one for the justice thing, especially when she's just out from her sister understanding.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it is really interesting that they ended up, if we're at all correct, you have three sisters, one in each stance.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: You have Lady Mary in the assertive stance, Lady Sybil in the dependent stance, and then if indeed Lady Edith is four, she's in the withdrawing stance, which makes makes sense how the dynamic would work and circular.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's not how it worked in my family.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: But no, but it's fun to see it.
• 13:28
  unknown: Okay.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So another one that I had fun with, but but also struggled a little bit, and I was surprised who I landed on.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: But type fives, what do you think?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's where I was saying, like, I think Carson is one.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um is a five because I could see him being.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm willing to concede that one to you.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: I see that.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's and I was on the line with because I went through and I made different notes.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, this one.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then as I was exploring, more and more went off the fives.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I ended up mainly with Mr.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Carson.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's hilarious.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think you'll appreciate these ones.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Clarkson.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I didn't even think, yes, yeah, of course, Dr.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Clarkson.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: He's in it frequently, too.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: He is.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: At least for the first time.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Shame on me.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh, for the first four seasons at least.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think he was in season six at all.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't remember if season five, but yeah, so he definitely was not to stereotype again.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Just because he's a doctor doesn't mean he's makes him a type four.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot of how he handled, especially Isabel Crawley and Violet, and how he was able to play between the two, and he was also very much dependent on facts and more of the withdrawing nature.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: I put John Bates as a five.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Mr.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: Bates.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Mr.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Bates put him as a six wings on.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: I that definitely could be.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I could give you that because he is incredibly the only reason why I put him as a five because he seemed way more withdrawing.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I had a heart harder time with him because there's so much he never even communicated to say even Anna.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like he had just resolved it on his own and he had processed it all inwardly and took a long time to even formulate a decision.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: But then when he made a decision, he made it.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Wait a minute, where did that come from?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or why did you do that?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: And he doesn't bother to tell anybody, he just doesn't even like leg braces.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: He did the research, he did all that.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't involve anyone else in the decision.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And once he decided to do it, he just did it, even though it cost him a great deal amount of pain.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And he wasn't gonna tell anybody.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And fives at their worst, they can be intellectually arrogant, which he definitely struggles with.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And he's stubborn, yeah, distant, critical of others, and can be negative.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Which, but then like at their best, they can be they're analytical, they're preserving, yeah, sensitive, they're wise, they're objective.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: I would put him as a social five too, because he he could get along really well with others, and because he seemed to tap in his line to growth with an eight, where he when he finally did need to assert himself in certain situations, maybe even to stand up against Thomas Barrow or a couple of those, he did it, he did it not as assertively, not outwardly, he did it a little bit more subtly, but it seems like he could hold his own a little bit more than with your typical maybe what you think of as a five.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: He was five.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and five with six wings, because to me, uh one of the things that I was thinking of as a six was because of his loyalty.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: His loyalty to Lord Grantham, his loyalty to Anna, his loyalty to other members of the house, and even just his sense of duty.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because they tend to be one five with the wing six, they're loyal, but they have that anxiety and they can be skeptical and cautious.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, like I could see where some of the in the certain seasons or certain episodes, because of all the different playing characters, he's exhibiting that.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'll give that one to you.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so type six.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious to know what you think.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: There was a I actually thought there was a lot here that could go in this category.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Top of my list was Mrs.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Patmore.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, of course.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Miss Patmore.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: She's absolutely my list, hands down on my type.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I almost could see Daisy.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I had Daisy too.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, which is hilarious that they're together.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but I feel like the potentially like phobic, counterphobic express examples right there of the sixes.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because they are they're likable.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: There you can't not help but love either one of them.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're fun, they're practical, they're ridiculous, they're paranoid.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: So paranoid, anxious.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think of Mrs.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Patmore's rental house that kind of ends up having its scandal there in the last season.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's even her eye surgery, and she was losing her eyesight and that, you know, drama, how that unfolded for her.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually think that's why there is such a clash between her and Daisy, is because Mrs.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Patmore sees herself in the immature version of her.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think she wants to try to help her not be that, but inadvertently she creates poor poor little Daisy, just so much stress and everything, and feeds some of the anxiety that is there and the fear and stuff like that.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And poor Jaisy, she Daisy, she's so suggestible.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: So she's she's able to be brought on.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: But then there's an example of being younger.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: She's one of the youngest characters, basically, in the show.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: So seeing just her development in the seasons and her growth in the butt oh yeah, she's so loyal and she sometimes allows the fear to drive her to do just crazy things, yeah.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or to be stuck in a situation.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Who else did you put?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: I also had, I think you'll appreciate this.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: I had Sarah O'Brien, which is Lady Cora.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Her in the first three seasons, it's her Lady's Maid.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I see her as a counterphobic six.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: She is a classic counterphobic six, where I see both Daisy and Mrs.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Patmore or your classic six that we are familiar with.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, and Mrs.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: O'Brien is motivated by needing to maintain her place of loyalty from Cora, and it even drives her to do the crazy thing that she deeply regrets later.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, we all regret it.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: The soap incident.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Ugh.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that, yeah, because that counterphobic, because they're a non-conformist, uh-huh.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: And they confront danger bravely, usually, and they're they like being direct and they can be very assertive.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: And this is why she and Thomas, I think, really connected.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: One, it's a line connecting stress and sixes, but also this counterphobic, she appreciates and gets along and maybe even adapts to some of Thomas's more assertive moves and goes along with it.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Loyalty as her partner, his partner in correctness.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: We really generally see sixes as very loyal, and the and in the end, you almost feel sorry for Mrs.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: O'Brien.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we do come to love her.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: She does grass, she gets her character development, gets a little bit her complete remorse.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like you, you're thankful of her realizing that she gets to she has to live out the complete horror of her choice.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um is that season two?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is season two.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: That was pretty brutal.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm with that.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I can't believe this, but we've come around full circle.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're at type seven.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um I thought for a while, I don't think they have any type sevens, but then I had to remember one of my favorite sweet little actresses.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: I really haven't seen much else, but Lily James we're talking about, who plays the role of Lady Rose McLare.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like hands down Sonic Seven.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Come on.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, she one of my favorite characters, and I love and how her just her story, the she brings a freshness to the dynamics.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: The writers were brilliant with her character.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: It needed a little lift, right?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Season four, she comes in.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, because we were missing Sybil.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And Sybil was that presence and a little bit of that essence of that sweet character who you weren't annoyed with.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that you were endeared to.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that wasn't causing, was causing troubles, but not in a manipulative kind of way.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because Sybil created issues with her love of falling in love with a chauffeur and then going off to ice her pants.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then with Lady Rose, it's just her constant wanting to be seen, especially by her parents, and the egg of that relationship.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: But then falling in love with the Granthams and just being loved well by them and eventually taken under their wing, and vice versa.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And her romance is a sweet one where it's not really.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Really riddled.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's some pinpoints of her marrying a Jew, and then with the Anglican versus the Jewish tradition, but the type of drama that adds isn't the heaviness of, say, Mary's story or Edith's story.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's just okay.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can see the struggle that comes from it, but you just you're rooting for them the whole time.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: And you love that.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And of course you're vying for her the whole time.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's no taking other sides.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: You just are purely rooting for her perspective.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And seeing her growth, like especially with that seven-ness of from the beginning to her chasing other romances just for the sake of because I can and I want to.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: I only live one, so I'm going to do it.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um such a sweet character and I love her.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: So hands down, seven.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then, like we mentioned, where I was wrestling with Henry Talbot, who's a three or seven.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would have to be drawn to putting him in the seven category.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think he he doesn't care as much of a as a parents, and that's why he goes head to head or toe to Lady Mary, because he doesn't care that it looks it could that people would think it odd that he would marry her and his station versus her station and all that sort of stuff, where he just he doesn't do it in a sort of way like she always wants to buck the system or certain other people do, where he just says, No, this is how I want to do it.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: So this is why I'm gonna do it.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what's gonna be fun for me, and this is you know what I dream.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: But he's also really innovative and he brings a levity to the situation, even though he's intense with his admiration and love for her.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: He does it in such a lighthearted way that you're really glad for that light-heartedness that he weaves into the story as well.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: When everything else feels, especially in that season between Mary and Edith, that feels really dark and heavy.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: He comes in and you're like, Oh yeah, I'm glad he's here again.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad he's popped over for a night visit on his way to somewhere, even though he didn't.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you're so glad that Tom's inviting him in.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, he brings, he totally brings the freshness that Mary needed.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: She needed the maturity and care that Matthew brought her in that relationship.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then because of the pain and loss from that she suffered with Matthew and just her own personal development, that having that seven type personality was the perfect antidote for her.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: It really is.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's so good.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's super fun.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and then last, certainly not least, now she was only maybe in the first three seasons, but that was Gwen Dawson, and she was the maid who became a secretary.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: We had mentioned her before in the last episode because Lady Sybil helps her sneak in the classes to learn how to type and gets the interview.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: The interview.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Lady Sybil works the system to help her.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason why I put her as a seven is because she really desired to get past the limitations that her station was affording her at the time.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: She wanted to break free.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: She wanted to be able to see what else was out there besides just what supposedly is just what is a recipe before her of this is what you do.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: You should be grateful the fact that you're even a person on staff at this grand house and not just a farmer's daughter.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And she's yes, this got me to my next thing, but I want more.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: She's a sweet character.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: I like her.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've done an amazing job.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: I know I was hoping.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I think I did read something that she's gonna be in the movie.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So really I think so.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm almost sure.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, again, I don't want to spread rumors.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: We'll find out here in a week or so.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: All right, I think you did an amazing job.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't think of a better person that I would want to have this conversation with.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I do wish you had done this conversation the whole time in your British accent because you do a lovely.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm so sorry.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe next time when you do have me on for another thing that I will have to bring it out so that way.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and I think you're for sure gonna come on and do teachers and the Enneagram and the power of understanding the Enneagram as a teacher.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're gonna have you back on for little women right in time for the Christmas holiday and for the new release of the brand new movie coming out.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's gonna be so fun.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then as I was I was thinking at the beginning, you need to create a course for playwriters and fiction writers about the Enneagram and how you use it to write really great characters.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Am I brilliant or what?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: You're so brilliant.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you added another thing on my two.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: I know! Ideation, they call it.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: I can't help myself.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna have all these ideas.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I can see how it could be really a helpful resource.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: It would be so good.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Tap into that my two.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be helpful for others.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, as we wrap this up, is there any character we didn't talk about that you really want to make sure we get in or any hope for in the movie?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: We've covered a lot, but anything else?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just looking forward to seeing one to finish rewatching the series.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone should try.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have nothing else to do.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, goals.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right, no.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: But seeing how the authors, the writers of this script bring in the continuation and maybe even just conclusion of some of these characters.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: I have high hopes for maybe some resolution to some stories, or even just the hints of the stories of yet to come that just give that sense of hope and reconciliation and restoration for the family and some of the different characters.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: I have I just I have high hopes of seeing what they bring about.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it'll start a trend, maybe they'll have to make a couple more movies.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: But we won't complain.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: I know, I won't complain.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: So between the music, the costumes, and the era that it's set in, I find it so intriguing and fascinating and just the transition of within England's history too of um post-World War One, then you have the height of the 20s, and just the change in the demographic of the upper and middle class and the rising of the middle class, really, actually, because of the effects of the post-war World War One.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I don't know.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just intrigued with what how what characters developed from that point where they took up.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just excited.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope by some miracle we can go see it together soon.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: That would be so great.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: I sure hope this trip back to Downton left you smiling and maybe even gave you some fresh insight for your own story.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you resonated with Lady Mary's villain moments, Edith's longing as a victim, or Carson's steady role as a guide, these characters show us what we already know deep down.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: That every one of us has been a victim, wrestled with our inner villain, taken steps toward becoming the hero, and when healing has done its work, even step into the sacred role of a guide.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, well, the sweetest part of this revisit is that Annalise and I will be together again soon, celebrating her baby shower and watching the brand new Downton movie on opening weekend, along with my mom, other sister, and daughters.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: I will definitely be posting that visit on my Instagram stories.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And now I encourage you to stay closely connected to this wholehearted community because there are going to be plenty of more wholehearted conversations headed your way.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Until then, remember that your story isn't finished.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: God is still writing, and He is inviting you to not just survive the roles you've been given, but to live wholeheartedly as the hero He's called you to be.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And eventually the guide someone else needs.