Latest / Unfinished Business / Starting a Business With Your Best Friend: What Nobody Tells You | Claire Kalala & Lauren Parks
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- claire and lauren: It's a struggle. I I still struggle with some of the smaller, seemingly easy pieces of our work. I think people think I've got all my boxes checked and I come off as very confident. Got a of things to work on. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I share Kimberly Griggs: Mm. Well said. claire and lauren: that sentiment too. Absolutely. I think people in my life sphere think that, you know, a successful business person, that can also juggle the hat of being a mom. But the truth is, like, I'm working a day and a half in the business. 24 7, I'm running it in my brain somehow. Yeah. And Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: so I think from the outside looking in, people definitely think, you know. Yeah. Got my buttons up and things are great, but it has moments where it just feels like everything's on fire. Kimberly Griggs: Well, Claire, Lauren, welcome to Unfinished Business. We're so excited to have you here and I can't wait to hear all about the art room. claire and lauren: Thank you. We're happy to be here too. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. Well, let's start with all the way back to the beginning. So Claire, let's start with you. Take me back claire and lauren: Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: to the moment that you and Lauren first met. What were you guys like back then? ha. claire and lauren: Umm... we met in grad school. So I remember like walking into class and feeling like, wow, that girl looks very put together. Like she looks very organized and like she's got her stuff going on. and yeah, I think during school I remember one of those first activities we did where we had had to identify I think a value that was important to us. and we both wrote down loyalty, right? and that was a really interesting connecting moment that I don't know if we recognize right away, but we've definitely talked about since then. we were both like working full time, second career, doing a lot of things and attempting to get through this very challenging program. yeah, with all of life happening also. Kimberly Griggs: I think it's really interesting that you both wrote down loyalty. Lauren, I'll ask you now same same kind of question, but what was your first impression of Claire when you met her? claire and lauren: Yeah, I I think we've talked about this of like just who Claire is, who I am, and the presence that Claire brings when she walks into a room is very bright and she's like wildly knowledgeable and talks very eloquently and says a lot of big words. so I was just like drawn to her like a magnet and the same of like, I just want to be her friend. and Over the course of our schooling, I think, we just got closer and closer. We ended up finding out that we grew up around the corner from each other. just wild things like wild connections. So it felt like we were friends for a very long time. and it just felt natural. So that initial like magnetism, and then a beautiful friendship came out of it. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Love that. I love it. It it's reminding me of my best friend when you guys said, I just wanted to be friends with her. That was literally our story. So yeah, it's like claire and lauren: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: you, you know, there's something in the spirit that kind of tells us, you know, like I I think there's something between us. But claire and lauren: For sure. Kimberly Griggs: that being said, so out of a great friendship, was there ever a sense that you two were gonna be great collaboration partners or work well together? claire and lauren: Yeah, I think we pretty early were discussing our work ethic was like kind of one of them and like you know the way we show up in like professional spaces. We did collaborate in school quite a bit, like we would pick each other to be partners. and I just remember feeling like this is really easy. Like this person brings a certain level of calm to my very busy brain and Kimberly Griggs: I love that. claire and lauren: I have all these ideas and she's kinda like, I can just say the ideas and she's like, This is what I heard. Let's pick these three bullets out of what you just said and make it happen, right? So pretty early it was like, yeah, this is this is good. This is good. It Kimberly Griggs: Awesome. claire and lauren: also helped that like in school we worked, you know, we had a chance to be collaborators in group spaces. So we were leaders. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: and that gave us a very clear idea of how it is to work together. then yeah, just other opportunities. We like led, I think I led with you. Yeah. The GW like Martin Luther King thing. so we had different opportunities to just like be in the same space and lead together. Yeah. That was really telling for how we would run a business or just kind of expand in that way. Kimberly Griggs: Were you there thinking about those things, or was this a subconscious knowing? claire and lauren: At some point I think we did start to name, hey, I think we we have similar ideas about what we might want to do in the future. we might want to work in private practice. It would be cool to work together in the future. testing those waters a little bit, when you're not really sure how the other person feels what you're trying to say. I think this could we're starting to mold this into something. but I just remember those times we got to collaborate, a lot of the communication being nonverbal, which is a really powerful thing when you're working with somebody, pretty quickly getting a sense of where the other person is, who should speak first. that was there was such ease with that. and yeah, I think that helped to reinforce those ideas as they started to bud. Like, yeah, let's what does that look like? Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: You know, La Lauren's like, I have this potential space that would be really cool to explore doing something, you know, at or Yeah. I just think it it was a really natural beginning. Yeah, it was. Felt good. Mm-hmm. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. Was there a moment where you thought, wait, like we could really do this? Like take me to put put me at the scene of that conversation. claire and lauren: That was honestly graduating and going out. we both took a full-time job in like school based work, which was kind of funny that it was both the same thing. however, I was like, I really want private practice to be something that we learn from or like me individually. And I found a private practice that felt really aligned in my values and and then I was like, Claire, you have to apply. I think you already got the job because I was like, hey, my friend Claire. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: So that just kind of gave us an intro into private practice. We weren't working directly together. but I was like, Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: this will give us the opportunity to learn this business, learn this side so that we can eventually merge our life together I remember too when we were at those school based jobs, we both had a pretty early start time. But I remember us committing to meeting like before the school day, which means like six o'clock, right? Like being at work at six to hop on a call with Lauren to start discussing building this business. And that was a big commitment for me, right? To actually do it and show up most Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: of the time. so I feel like that's when I was like, Okay, this is real. Like we're actually doing this. Kimberly Griggs: So how what what were the first few ideas shaped around you building something together? What you know, what were some of those thoughts that were going on? How did you want to be unique in what you had previously been experiencing with this with this other, you know, school based practice? claire and lauren: Yeah, great question. I feel like we both showed up in a space of okay, we've learned very clearly what we don't want. Kimberly Griggs: I think that's such an important question that many businesses claire and lauren: Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: don't ask themselves often enough. we're taught to claire and lauren: Hmm, good call. Kimberly Griggs: to go for what we want, but we don't sit back and think, well, wait a minute, the reverse of that needs to be considered as well. claire and lauren: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that's how this business was like founded on the things that we don't want in this space. and that's like Kimberly Griggs: Mm. claire and lauren: burnout. what we traditionally see in therapy businesses, like, this is the ideal client number that you need to maintain. And we're like, We don't like that at all. it's just not sustainable. We're also trying to Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: build families. yeah, you know. We we want children, we have children, so all of that was a conversation of like we see the burnout, we see the like capitalizing on other therapists' time and their work, and we just didn't want that. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: We also yeah, we really didn't want to yeah, bring people on as we grew who would just be like, you know. Pons in a larger system. we wanted real community. We wanted shared interests and goals and values in terms of the work we were doing, who we were seeing, but also this idea of the art therapist identity, because the private practice we worked at was, you know, kind of mixed mixed practitioners, mostly talk therapists or social workers. and there was usually just one or two art therapists like per location, if that. so we we were really missing out of school this like idea of art therapist and creative art therapists being together, you know, sharing about their work and the challenges that come with it, the exciting wins that come with it, ideas. so that was a big thing too, like creating a hub for art therapy. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: and there really there weren't a ton and there aren't really a ton of art therapy specific practices. Kimberly Griggs: Well that that's what I was going to ask. So for anyone who's listening, 'cause this was new to me as as well. I had to actually go back and research what this is, but share with us your definition of of art therapy and how this differs from talk therapy or or other, therapeutic solutions that people might be more familiar with, claire and lauren: Yeah. This it's funny. We laugh because like right, I think day one in school, they're like, this is the thing you need to be ready to do. Answer the question, what is art therapy? Right. So it's been this like this like ever evolving idea. quite simply, Kimberly Griggs: Mm-hmm. claire and lauren: like art therapy i in Maryland is a a licensed profession. We're clinical and mental health professionals. our scope of practice in terms of like what we can do with clients we're seeing is very similar to like a talk psychotherapist. So if you can imagine what it's like to go see someone when you're you know struggling with any kind of like life transitions or whatever challenges might be coming up in terms of mental health. You know, you go, you tell them about yourselves, you create a treatment plan and goals for your for yourself with the with the provider. and you work with that person over extended period of time. And so we do the same thing. The difference is that we also have what we often call like the third person in the room, which is the art, the creative process, the art material. so we get to have a second or another kind of conversation happening between the client and what they're creating, between what they're creating and both the client and the therapist. there's so much that is like easier sometimes to witness or experience or make sense of when we don't have to use words because words are pretty tough. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: yeah a lot of us don't think I don't think many of us were taught the right ways or or easy ways to kind of express how we're feeling or what we're thinking about. And yeah, art can be really helpful. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I hope that makes sense. yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. Look Lauren, anything to add to that? claire and lauren: Yeah, just the the knowledge that you don't have to be experienced in art in any way to benefit from art therapy as well. you don't have to be an artist, and it's really about like that exploration and the process over the product. how you created and the end result. Kimberly Griggs: So if you could give us claire and lauren: Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: example of, you know, obviously not not naming names of any sort, but walk us through a real life example of what art therapy, the process of it and what, you know, the outcomes have been. claire and lauren: Yeah, okay. a couple of weeks ago, I came in. I was just like feeling flustered from the the events that happen when you have toddlers and and babies to take care of right before work and seeing a caseload. yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Well familiar. claire and lauren: so I came in and I had about like 30 minutes before I was seeing a client. So I just took a pen and a couple of watercolors and I was doing repetitive movements over and over. and that was just like kind of bringing me in the space, calming my nervous system down because it wasn't anything I had to think about. Kimberly Griggs: Mm. claire and lauren: and then from that I just kind of continued. So then I played with watercolor. and that's very fluid of a material, so you don't have a lot of control over it. So again, like reflecting on me not having control over my children and all of the things that they bring up in the morning. so just releasing that control. And then, you know, when a client does all of that, there's a part of the session where we process anything that we've noticed, anything that came up, how you're feeling now in this space. And While I don't do that with myself necessarily, I just feel that benefit of allowing myself to have this like space. Yeah. We get some really incredible education on art materials and how and when to maybe offer or utilize or bring up or or to the session a certain kind of material. because like Lauren mentioned, watercolor is very fluid, right? so if Kimberly Griggs: Mm-hmm. claire and lauren: a a client was someone who really struggles with wanting to be in control and needing that sense of like what's gonna happen next. maybe there's some anxiety presenting, right? We might build up to working with more fluid materials so that they get practice of what it's like to not be in control, right? In a way that Yeah, yeah, there's still some safety, right? There's safety built Kimberly Griggs: I love this idea. Wow. Yeah. claire and lauren: in the relationship in the therapeutic space, but now we're starting to bring things in that are a challenge. Right. We work with a lot of neurodivergent clients who deal with a lot of different like sensory challenges and triggers or sensitivities. And we we play around a lot with like, hey, how can we kind of start to expand your window of tolerance, right? For being uncomfortable, for discomfort, because that's part of life. Like we're not here Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: to remove negative experiences or discomfort. It's that's not reasonable, right? but learning how to deal with them, learning how to be aware of what's gonna maybe cause a trigger or a a discomp a negative reaction, and then playing Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: with how do we expand that capacity. so that's that's one thing. Kimberly Griggs: And so if I'm hearing you correctly, then even simply by playing with the types of art material, one can experience claire and lauren: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Griggs: life's like almost in building a picture of watercolors or messy around the edges, but they blend together to be some unique, you know, truly inspirational picture at the end. Is that correct? Yeah. claire and lauren: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think a lot too of our one of our professors, Dr. Juliet King, who like this really beautiful way of describing, like taking the internal, externalizing it in some kind of art process or creative process, and then like re internalizing it, but after sort of this reflection and processing. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: I think that's such a good way to think about it too. Because sometimes it's not necessarily just a, you know, how do we experiment or play, but it's a I'm having a a feeling or an experience. I don't know how to talk about it. Okay, well what does it look like? What does it feel like? What color is it? Is there a texture or quality to it? Can you put that out on paper, right? And then we can learn about it. Yeah. And sometimes just the distance itself between the client and the artwork that's created is enough for them to start making connections to different things and internalizing it in a different way. Kimberly Griggs: How interesting. It's it's actually taking me back to my childhood is one of the things my mom was claire and lauren: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Griggs: an artist. Well, not she is an artist in her own way, claire and lauren: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Griggs: but wildly creative. But she I was always the kid that, you know, if they messed up or colored outside of the lines, wanted to just throw it away and start over. And my mom claire and lauren: Yeah, yeah. Kimberly Griggs: would, you know, she would retrain or, you know, help me to think differently. Like, art is it is messy. You think it's claire and lauren: Well. Kimberly Griggs: you think it's a mess, but it's really that's That is part of the process. So that that's really a beautiful perspective. I'm really curious. claire and lauren: Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: because you guys both entered this field when the world was upside down and COVID changed everything. talk to me a little bit about that experience in and of itself. One coming into this profession at a time when nobody really knows how to interpret those feelings or that experience because it's brand new for everyone. And then post that, what has art therapy done, you know, for for your clients that you've noticed or, you know, some something that is interesting or stands out to you about that? claire and lauren: It was wild. It was wild. It was wild. I Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. I'll bet. claire and lauren: mean I think I mean remember our professors, people who were training us, like these experts in the field who were like, We're just gonna try this, right? Like we're our our program went virtual. we were working with there's a clinic at the at our school that we went to and we were seeing clients all of a sudden virtually, right? Like so really, I mean, I think it was really cool that we did have that experience. although it was challenging, because we got to learn right on the ground with the, you know, the top dogs in in the field, how to make this work, right? How to get real creative about what people had at home, about creating safe spaces where previously there weren't any, I think a lot of like what I've enjoyed seeing through that and I think like since is kind of the the ways that we got To be creative and adaptive as art therapists in training and then eventually licensed art therapists. the way our clients were really adaptive, I think that speaks to like the larger lived experience during COVID. Like we we kind of all had to figure it out. and like there were lots of surprises. There were a lot of clients who I expected to like really suffer in sort of the isolation and doing things over the computer who thrived, right? Like for some reason. Whatever they had going on in the world, in the spaces that we were sharing, was really overwhelming. But being home was safe and they were able to open up in new ways. So yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: and it's been nice having now back to being like in person, having an office, doing art therapy in person. I mean, you can't really compare the two. Both can be very Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: effective, but it's been wonderful to be building our space here, like post COVID. People want to come in person, you know. Virtual was nice for accessibility, but they wanna be back in the office too. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. And it does provide opportunities and options, as as I'm learning claire and lauren: Absolutely. Kimberly Griggs: that the space is changing and opening it up for you guys to maybe potentially practice in other areas or other cities. claire and lauren: Yeah, who knows? Eventually. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: We've been working really hard of our in our little home here. but we one day. Yeah. Yeah. We're growing faster than we necessarily planned, but it's happening. Kimberly Griggs: Love that. So who is the person that, you know, when you guys were envisioning creating this business together, who, who was it in your mind that you were really trying to reach? claire and lauren: So I think what I'm thinking of is how we've taken our original ideal client and we've just gotten more narrow and niche down because at first our like marketing and text and script was this perfectionistic person who had different identities that they were trying to navigate. Like super high achieving, yeah. Yeah. And we've actually just come to a realization that the person that we really wanted is somebody that's high masking in the world. so yes, they have all of these traits, but we've now put language of a diagnostic like criteria that somebody might be experiencing and living with. And the whole Kimberly Griggs: And what is that criteria? Would you like to share? claire and lauren: Well, I was gonna say, yeah, maybe this will come to it, but even this idea of like where we put our boots down, the Washington County, underserved space Lauren was just so passionate about right from jump, you knew there wasn't this service here. And like, so when really early on when we're talking about starting this business, she's like, Look, let's do it here. Like, let's start here because there's there is a room for us, there's nothing here. We could build whatever we want. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: So I feel like that even was part of the as we're figuring out the clinical language, our ideal client, we're also how do we build relationships and connections and really reach out to people here in this county, in this town? I that seems like part of it too. I don't know if that's that's kinda not your question, but it's made me think of that. Kimberly Griggs: No, it absolutely is. that it that's the interesting thing is I think that that's another lesson that you end up learning is I think at first when you start a business, the goal is just to bring revenue in the door, however, right? And I I don't know claire and lauren: Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: that there is so much of a focus, or at least most of the stories that I hear. I very few, very few few people that I've interviewed have come and said, yep, we we built the plan, we followed the plan accordingly. This was our ideal client. who we really loved serving. claire and lauren: Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: it's like they had they had in their mind maybe who that might be, but until it was tested, it it it claire and lauren: Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: didn't really come to fruition. So I love that you had that experience of this is who we think we might serve, but this is the area, going back to what you knew you didn't want. You didn't want to go in a place that sounded like where it was flooded with this type of opportunity. You wanted to go to a place that was underserved or that these approaches were brand new. So I love claire and lauren: Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: that you were figuring that that out as you go. claire and lauren: Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: so what is what does that look like today? How has that ideal client opened up since those early days? claire and lauren: we've really identified this of these not a tr I don't think it's a trifecta, but a couple different pieces, right? Which is the the high masking, like Lauren said. That's that's the big one. trauma is the other big one. That's the focus of our training, and we continue to to seek training and being trauma responsive and effective. trauma, identity, big emotions, high masking. So these different pieces. And grief, that's the one I'm missing. Grief. Yeah. and just it's been so cool to see how identifying those words, those labels, although like Lauren is more of kind of an expert on the grief side and those experiences, I may come with more experience with like neurodivergent experiences Nervous system stuff, like. They connect so much. someone who's late diagnosed who might come see me, they're processing grief. that's one of the main things that we're working on. not receiving a diagnosis till they're thirty or forty, right? All Kimberly Griggs: Hmm. claire and lauren: the ways that they didn't get seen or supported as a child, right? Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: I've never thought about that. That that that type of client would be experiencing grief. It like how they I come to identify that they need help. Huh. That's so interesting. claire and lauren: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like an ambiguous grief, right? So and I Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: it's just been wild how by picking the things that we were really interested in and meant a lot to us, putting them out on the table and then seeing how truly probably all of our clients they all connect, right? and so we just are constantly seeking support and supervision from each other, like, hey, you know, how do I handle this? What would you say here? Or like, what do you think this me you know, what do you think this means? Like, Kimberly Griggs: Sure. claire and lauren: yeah. So it's it's been nice to just have those few keywords. Yeah. And the funny thing too is in the training and coaching received and and really honing the ideal client because, people are looking for a therapist. There is a lot of there are a lot of people out here doing this work. Kimberly Griggs: Mm-hmm. claire and lauren: no matter where you are, especially now with the virtual option, right? So Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: yeah, you can write this beautiful like few paragraphs about what the what it is you do and who you want to see. And someone might come to you and say, hey, yes, that paragraph, I I'm I am this person. but you might also have someone who's like, I resonate with it. I don't identify with any of the things you said, but something about the way you wrote that, like I it's it hit me, it connects with me, you know? Kimberly Griggs: Mm. claire and lauren: Yeah. So it's it's pretty cool. And the more Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: that we got clearer, the easier and the more I think the more people started to come to our door and saying, Hey, this is yeah, we're here for this. Kimberly Griggs: I I wanna dig in there. claire and lauren: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Let me pause there and put a pin in that because I think that's the thing that you guys both said. And I love that you labeled it keywords because it really is. it really is an identification process. So I'm curious to know once you had a solid grip on, you know, both your passions and also, you know, who you thought that these services would, you know, help be be best or more most helpful for, how did you go about announcing to different communities where these people might be living and and working and, hanging out in order to get more claire and lauren: Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: exposure to the brand. claire and lauren: Talk about stars aligned. I feel like, Kimberly Griggs: tell claire and lauren: yeah, I don't even know where things truly began, other than we started like cold calling slash connecting with different companies that we just felt like would be a good referral source or that we actually wanted to refer clients to. and then that got the the ball rolling and we are now in spaces where we're like in community groups where we meet other clinicians and talk about updates and we hear all about our our county and the updates that are happening. yeah it it's just weird and wild how things have happened. Lauren's so natural at this like she's our resident like I'm gonna reach out to this person and just like send them an email Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: and just we'll see what happens. And then I'm like, okay, like sounds good. and yeah, she's just she's really made connections with people here in this in this area, like with that local hospice chapter and like with work they're doing. getting us into different like health fairs and events that come up that I wouldn't necessarily have thought of like reaching out to. And she's like, let's just try. What's the worst you what's the Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: worst that could happen? and yeah, just some of the like feedback we've gotten, the way that somehow we're like kind of becoming this like trusted. resource in Washington County and we're like, Kimberly Griggs: Absolutely. claire and lauren: What? Like we've talked about imposters syndrome. We feel like babies, you know, out here doing this work. But yeah, it's been cool. And I I still think we're at the beginning, very much. Absolutely. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: Yeah. But it's it's really just been by taking leaps of faith and word of mouth. Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. I love that you you mentioned starting those business referral partners because when you have people that can, you know, source other sources than just individual, because that's claire and lauren: Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: that's really hard to tackle. But if you basically have someone who has a group of clients that they could send your way and then share that referral source, then you're right, it does become easier and and ultimately you start building case studies that then bring proof to what how these concepts are helping people or changing lives. I love that. claire and lauren: And I have to just say, I remember Lauren couldn't attend one of these initial workshops or events we went to. And so I went just with a small table with some of our materials. And it was a it was like Child welfare workshop. Child welfare workshop in Washington County. So like teachers and social workers, behavioral specialists, people like that, from all the schools were there as like a PD day. And I was like, I don't know how this is gonna go. Like I'm just gonna kind of share what it can if people stop by the table. And everyone came to that table, like before the event even started and was like, I know who you guys are and I'm like, How? And it was like this girl, right? She'd been like sending our stuff out and like people who hadn't maybe responded to the email but were like maybe had pinned in their brain like, I'll I'll reach out later. But to see us there in the community, our logo, some colorful things on the table, they were like, yes. I know, I gotta come talk to you. I have kids that I work with who would love to see you or, you know, we need to think for teens, like come to our school. Like that just started a whole Yeah. That was that for Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: me was the moment I said, Wow, okay, this is really working. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: That is so awesome. I can only imagine sitting there and just my gosh, like it's it's almost surreal. claire and lauren: Yeah. I was like, I t like couldn't even really text her and she's like, What's happening? And I'm like, I can't, I've been talking for three hours straight. I had to come to her house right after and I was like, I gotta tell you everything. Like that was a lot. It was so cool. So yeah. Yeah, it was awesome. Kimberly Griggs: That is so cool. Okay, well, you guys, you you both spent a lot of time learning the ropes of your profession, though it sounds like the ins and outs, the things that you didn't want, especially, but nobody really teaches you how to run a company once we're in it, right? So, what did you guys have to suddenly learn or unlearn about money, marketing, hiring, operations, all the things? claire and lauren: That's definitely stuff that we still have to unlearn and relearn, money stuff particularly. but we've we've come a long way. I come from a family of all entrepreneurs. So my dad, grandfather, stepdad, like kind of everybody in my life, my my father-in-law has owned and run their own business. So that was a lot of we pinged ideas and information from them, some guidance along the way. And and Claire also has experience with running totally separate business too. Yeah, yeah. I was definitely someone from pretty early on, the art background who was like, Okay, hustle, how do I make money? How do I so I like had all these little businesses. I I run a swim school also now, which is fun. Kimberly Griggs: Interesting. claire and lauren: but yeah, I think we we Definitely had to make some decisions early on to pivot from what we maybe thought we'd be doing. I think we thought we were gonna take insurance. We thought we Kimberly Griggs: Mm. claire and lauren: were gonna go the route of like, being uber accessible in that way. because we were thinking, like, hey, we didn't come from a ton of money, like we it'd be hard for us to get mental health re you know, services without insurance. but what we've learned and in terms of like making this work sustainable for us and for the people that come on, it doesn't really make sense for our practice right now to be able to do that. to become truly like highly skilled clinicians in this field, like it does require constant training that costs a lot of money. And we've learned and we've educated ourselves a lot about how to support clients to learn about what resources they might already be paying for and don't know in terms of like getting reimbursement for services. some clients don't have out of network benefits. And that's something that we also will support or coach them on how to maybe figure out how they can get them or what other resources might be available. But even Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: just like folks who go ahead and try to submit for reimbursement have no idea what they're gonna get and then end up finding out they have full coverage or close to full coverage, It's it's interesting. A lot I mean, insurance is very complicated and a lot of us don't really Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: know. about it. So that's been a huge learning curve. in terms of marketing, I feel like we've just been like, let's pick our few lanes and let's just keep going. I think in the beginning we were like, this didn't work for a month, so let's skip it and let's do something else. we were kind of hopping. and Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: we've learned pretty quickly that's not how it works. You gotta be consistent. Be consistent. Yeah. Uh-huh. Kimberly Griggs: the magic word nobody likes to face. claire and lauren: But it works. We're seeing the the fruit of that. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. Yeah. Well, what's something that you're really good at professionally in your work, but maybe that doesn't automatically make you good at running that piece of the business? claire and lauren: Yeah, I think that there are a lot of consistent conversations we have around the hats we wear, the skills we have, what we're good at. We have a conversation a lot about tabs. like mental tabs, right? I I have Kimberly Griggs: Yeah, tell me more. claire and lauren: a neurodivergent brain and I have seven million tabs open all the time. And when I approach I feel like Lauren would be really good. She's really good at sitting there and you're in the tabs, like I said before. minimize, minimize, minimize. yeah. It's great. Having the language, Kimberly Griggs: I love that analogy by the way. You're in the tabs. I dig that. I dig that. claire and lauren: I think, is very helpful too. And like, Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: you know, we work really well together, which means we also have totally different skill sets that we're really good at. Yeah. and we lean into that. So Claire does you know, like the money aspect and of course my eyes are on it as well and and same to her with my task but I do the little I do the tabs, right? I do the little things, the ordering, the checking, the the spreadsheets, the like and and I have to check with you sometimes. I'm like, all right, are we can we have a conversation about tabs or should we be big picture, right? Like to make sure she's ready to get into it versus not. Yeah. Yeah. and Lauren's Kimberly Griggs: I think that's an interesting distinction too. So I'm curious how you guys came to to understand that Claire was tabs and Lauren is big picture. Cause I think even like the way that you just presented that, Claire, I think was so interesting. Like, is it a big picture talk or can we talk about tabs? I love that. claire and lauren: Yeah, language is is huge for us. So big. it Kimberly Griggs: It matters, it really does. claire and lauren: really does. And I don't know exactly where that came from or or grew from, but example is our group space, which we're sitting in right now, has a plethora of art supplies and things of that nature. And Claire is really great at putting the little stuff away and I will build the furniture. So if you can think of that analogy, that's basically how our business runs is I will do the like brunt work heavy lifting and Claire will put all of the little pieces together. But I'll clean up. That's yeah, but she just kinda Kimberly Griggs: Mm-hmm. claire and lauren: like spins around me's like, What do need? What do you need now? What do you need now? Like to make this easier, you know? Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: and I think I think that that I think we're good at being supportive that probably to our clients, but also really helps that we have a close friendship. Yeah. And I do think Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: we learn that partly through the friend side, right? just coming to each other for certain kinds of supports or, her encouraging me to move faster and maybe me encouraging her to slow down and sometimes, or vice versa, depending on the moment, right? But yeah, that there being like a need for both for a successful business to operate and being able to fill each other's gaps in, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Kimberly Griggs: Have there been hiccups around communicating that? claire and lauren: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes we're you know, I think our strong suit is actually having those hiccups and that like rupture repair. But the rupture has never been colossal having Kimberly Griggs: can you share an example of what a a rupture looked like but you f failed forward? claire and lauren: Yeah. Yeah, we think of a good one. I'm thinking we Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: wanted to expand. yeah. Yeah. That was a big one. so I was like, okay, now is the time that we we need to take somebody on. There had been just like several things that were happening that I was like, we need another clinician, we need somebody. And Claire was like really adamant about pumping the brakes and and taking a long time for that. And I was like, we've been open. like a year and a half. And I was like, we've been in this space. you know, we're we're in a good spot to where we can take somebody on and Claire's not having it. But we we quickly just laid everything out, our fears, our thoughts and And what we were miscommunicating and and we figured it out. Yeah. it doesn't take us long, but maybe you know, sometimes a couple of days, like a couple of different conversations, like stepping back, coming back together. and Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: a lot of times it's like it is like a I don't understand where she's coming from or vice versa. But once we just lay that out and are able to be honest with ourselves and each other, very quickly we're like, okay, I see where this like fell off track. why don't we do this this way so that it like kind of meets the need you have? Or why don't we slow down in this aspect but just like go ahead and move forward to hire. yeah it's it's that's kind of interesting. That was a big one that I kind of forget about. Yeah. it's funny how you had a little bit ago said you know, this is how we work with our clients. And I feel like that is so so true of how we operate as just as people but in our friendship. and we name the feelings, we name the fear, we name the issue, and then we like work backwards from that of of okay, now how Kimberly Griggs: Mm. claire and lauren: can we come to a place where we can make this work or not make this work or whatever it is. and that's the work. Kimberly Griggs: Lauren, can you repeat that? Because I th I think there's an important principle there that not only can we benefit from your work as a therapist, but your work as a business owner. So can you repeat that process again? What does the laying it all out there look like? claire and lauren: Yeah. goodness. Yeah. So I think you know, what when we work with our clients, it's we're trying to get to that feeling. and then we're trying to figure out like where it's coming from or or or how to then integrate a different way into life. And that's basically what we do is like we lay it out in the sense of what are we feeling, what are our fears is usually fears. what what comes forward for us in operating a business. and then we just, you know, what are our roadmaps from there of of how do Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: we make this work? Yeah. I hope that answered your question. Something with me is Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: It does. No, it's and it's so empowering. It's a simple way to go about problem solving. But I don't think claire and lauren: Okay. Kimberly Griggs: that we have many conversations about what that process potentially looks like. I think at least I know i in our world I I tend to make it more complicated than it needs to be. claire and lauren: yeah, so often I'm like talking in tabs and you're like, I don't think we have to have all those open, right? Or and then, or sometimes I'm like, yeah. Kimberly Griggs: I love that. That's such a great example, you guys. I love that. claire and lauren: Ugh. It's been a game changer, truly. And I think it's really like helped us to establish a common language, but also like deep trust. Like I think that's something that, Kimberly Griggs: Uh-huh. claire and lauren: you know, being being anxious, having a lot of tabs open, like you don't really trust that other people can really understand like how deeply it's impacting you to to be thinking about all those things and holding all those things. So I think I trust a lot when Lauren does encourage me to slow down or close tabs or, pivot that she knows that it's not easy for me to do and she's gonna be there to support the transition and that she has faith that like this leap is makes sense. And I I've really like developed the trust that like, yeah, I'll go with you there. Okay, I'll close the tabs up, right? As long as you're cool if we open them when we get there, right? yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, that's the part about r you know, conflict resolution, which is really what we're talking claire and lauren: Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: about, right? Is like there there's an agreement that's made is that your claire and lauren: Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: your need for looking at the big picture and my need for looking at the tabs are going to you know intersect or come to a head at some times, but it doesn't mean it has to be one or the other. We can come back claire and lauren: Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: and, you know, be equally heard. I love that. claire and lauren: For sure. Absolutely. Yeah. They're both needed. Kimberly Griggs: So speaking of rules of the partnership, were there any for you guys? Did you guys have to, intentionally create rules around your your business partnership? claire and lauren: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Talk about it. Kimberly Griggs: Tell me about that. claire and lauren: We're still doing that. We're still doing it. We just came Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: up with a good one. Yeah. Like there's been times when one of us has been like not like, you know, family has taken us to for a few weeks to go do something like a a trip or maternity leave or whatever, you know. And so I think a big one that has come up is like wanting to make sure that we're still touch points when we're one of us is not as present. or like we've recently, I think because like I do a lot of the ordering and things like that, right? Like just doing it and want like me having an idea that I didn't want to bother her, right? Or like interrupt Kimberly Griggs: Mm. claire and lauren: her when she's away or whatever. and her being like, actually, I would really like to know. each thing that you're doing or like each tab you're opening and closing, each thing you're ordering. And it's not so much like I don't trust you or I don't believe that you're, you know, have our best interests at at heart or are using our money wisely, but more just like it's important for us to continue to both have eyes on everything. And that's Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: worked pretty well, I think, since we like re-realized that just a few weeks ago. We're like, okay, let's just It's not bothersome to Lauren if I'm texting her all day. And I don't care Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: if she responds to me. It's almost just like my own little to-do list, but she can go Kimberly Griggs: Yes, yeah. claire and lauren: back when she has time and take a look and, see what makes sense. So yeah, I feel like those are two that I can think of. Yeah. And, you know, we we hear one another when we're both well when one of us is feeling overwhelmed. Yeah. and we try to figure out, okay, what's the overwhelm coming from? How do we make this work? I think over the summer we realized with Claire running her other business, it was taking and it does in the summertime take her time from her. so she has to split her time between two businesses and that's really hard. And she was feeling the overwhelm, but I wasn't. So I was like the calm presence. But we were trying to figure out okay, what can I take? off your plate that will help that. And I think we've had a lot better of a summer this this year and last year. Yeah. and then, you know, same on the flip side of me is I'm juggling motherhood with two little babies at home and a business. And I have consistently been like, this is too much. I I'm feeling really overwhelmed. I'm not being as present as I want to be at home. what can we do? we really connect and and figure it out when one of us has a fire. That shared value, I think, of like That was why we started this and so that we could have families and be present for families and you know, not just be people who are working 90 hours a week because it's just not what we want Kimberly Griggs: Absolutely. claire and lauren: to do. Like we we were hustlers. Like we we started that early on, working all the time. and we just we knew that's not sustainable for us to like have a life well lived. And I think when we do get overwhelmed, like the other person immediately clicks into like, Validating and also being like, Okay, stop. hey, you're supposed to be on a trip. Mute this chat. Like, I'm not talking to you anymore, right? Go do your thing. Like, Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. claire and lauren: get off the phone, right? Like, don't worry about it. I got it, right? Like that kind of thing is really nice. Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: So I'm always curious about this too, because I think communication inside of business is so subjective, right? what works for one company might not work for another. How have you guys, in terms of technology, been able to keep a shared tab so that you're not trying to just rely on text messages or email? Like, I guess are there other systems that you guys have found useful for collaborating. claire and lauren: Yeah, I'm laughing because Claire's brain works best in systems and that's how she needs to operate. But sometimes the system needs to be revamped because that system is no longer serving her. So we Kimberly Griggs: Huh? claire and lauren: have been Poor Lauren's like, I've actually never in interacted with that system, so I don't even know what that you're talking about. I'm like, what? it works so well. but the best one that we've had so far is our notes app. We both have an iPhone, which is really helpful because then we can share a note. and Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: then within that note, it is called buckets. so we have different buckets of our business within the note app. We can collapse tabs in it so that we're not focusing on any one thing at a time. it's been really helpful. Yeah. It does Kimberly Griggs: Love the claire and lauren: get overwhelmed. It does get overwhelming. And I so we'll say, I'm gonna go clean up our buckets, right? I'm gonna go clean them up, delete the things that don't need to be there. Or Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: recently we haven't been putting as much stuff in there, but we've been texting more. Yeah. So just yesterday I went back through our text, which is just so much, but I screenshotted every time we were like, We need to do this, or like just like a little brain gem, right? So I just I just screenshotted them so I could go back and put them into buckets, right? I was like, let's get our system back on track because this is this is wild. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: I dig that. And see, so that's that's something I think is so funny because, they have all of these programs and now AI and all these tools. But claire and lauren: yeah. Kimberly Griggs: at the end of the day, we, our team has struggled with that as well. My sister, claire and lauren: Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: who is our my podcast producer, she'll appreciate this part of the conversation. Because same claire and lauren: Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: thing, it's like, how do we have, how do we have, you know, maintain those touch bases without losing, you know, like the gems, like you said, the little gems that happen. in just daily life. it's so difficult when you're trying to communicate that. And then the more people you add, the more complicated that system gets, which, but at the claire and lauren: Yeah. Yeah. I Kimberly Griggs: end of the day, it's gotta work for everybody or else people will just claire and lauren: It does. Kimberly Griggs: not use it. claire and lauren: Yeah. That's other things too. Yeah. I know that systems that are too complex, Lauren is just like, I'm not I I can't Kimberly Griggs: Yeah the claire and lauren: engage with it, right? So then it's a matter of okay, well, is this helpful for me and it's actually helping me run our business, or is it just like I'm just playing around in here and it's not really she's not benefiting Kimberly Griggs: Right. claire and lauren: from it, it's not really doing anything. but Kimberly Griggs: Absolutely. claire and lauren: it is funny, like I just think about that. I I don't think I've said this to you, but Lauren will say, we need to do this thing, right? the big picture thing. And immediately my head is opening tabs for it, right? and I think often we don't always revisit it or like it gets loaded. So it's a thing that's open, but we may not come back to it for six months, right? so it's like that's kind of the cleaning up of the tabs too, where it's like, this was I take, you know, everything we take what we say to each other is, important and valuable and meaningful. But when she's like, let's do this, I'm like, yes. Just like every idea. Talk about hype girl over here. Like, Kimberly Griggs: It's a tab. claire and lauren: let's do it. Usually, Kimberly Griggs: But claire and lauren: it's just interesting. The whole bucket's planned. That that's helped too. That's another language too that's really helped. Like Kimberly Griggs: Yeah, absolutely. I I I feel like that this has been such a great conversation even so far, just of the the language is important to be able to name it. So claire and lauren: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: thank you. I want to thank you in advance to both of you for giving us that. okay, so claire and lauren: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Kimberly Griggs: here's a here's a big question, pivoting just a little bit before we talk about burnout. but have there been moments or have you learned about turning off the business partner mode and just going back to being friends again? What has that been claire and lauren: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Griggs: like? claire and lauren: We're working on it real good. Yeah. It's I think, it's it's almost become so much of our identity too and our relationship that we can switch on and off. And I work really well with neurodivergent brains. and I think that lends itself well to being able to bounce around to conversation and switch things on and off. and just know that it's running in the background constantly. we need to allot about an hour when we first see each other for friend. Yeah. like friendship time. Because if we don't, that Time will happen and we won't have any business time. So we basically give ourselves an hour to just like word vomit everything. and then we're like, okay, now let's talk about the business. Right. Or if something big is happening and we need friend time, we'll say, like, hey, I need like a day, a whole day. So can we get together on Tuesday? Because Wednesday and Thursday we have meetings and other things, but like if we don't. Wednesday and Thursday is gonna be off. It's gonna be rough. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: we just went for the first time really, like away this weekend. her family has a cabin in in West Virginia in the mountains, and we got to just like, hang out. Hang out. And Kimberly Griggs: I love that. claire and lauren: yeah, we did some business stuff, but like our families were there. So it was like family time and a little bit of work time and I think we identified a new iteration that we needed to prioritize having more friend family time together. in order to yeah, have those pockets of of business work time be really effective. So my Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: husband and I, we don't have kids yet. We can move around a little more easily because we don't have that demand, So we're like, okay, every other Sunday after fall swim is over. We're gonna come up and we're just gonna be here at your house or the office, wherever you guys wanna be. All day. We're gonna be with you all day. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: so and that was my husband's idea. Cause he, both of our husbands are incredibly supportive. They Yeah. They drive us nuts, but they're they're amazing. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: I was just gonna ask about the husband. So how what has that looked like? Yeah. claire and lauren: They really are. They were the fuel to this, to the fire of this business, truly. I was on maternity leave and I think both of our husbands were poking fun at us for When's this business gonna start? And Claire just Claire just got sick of of hearing it and filed for our business and I was like, Let's do it. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Just one day. I will show you. claire and lauren: Yeah. Literally to this day. When they're always just like, So when are we get when do we get to quit our jobs 'cause you guys are doing so great. Yeah. And we're like, Don't worry about it. We got it going on. But I mean, they're Kimberly Griggs: That's awesome. That's claire and lauren: here I mean, at least once a month, twice a month, helping us put up shelves or paint a thing or bring packages from, you know, my house to the office and So they're very supportive. Kimberly Griggs: Very cool. that the support systems, especially behind a family business, which it sounds to me like you guys are more of a family than just friends. But yeah, claire and lauren: Yeah, yeah. Kimberly Griggs: I think that that's the support network behind you is such an important part of success and something that often gets left, you know, undiscussed. Yeah. claire and lauren: Yeah. Yeah, can't say enough great things about both of our families. Yeah, true. Even, siblings, parents, like everybody's just so great and helping us in showing up and yeah, being around it's really nice. And yeah, so in turn we want to make sure the space that's part of our I think ethos too is wanting to make sure our office is comfortable and safe and feels a little bit homey. It's it's you it's got its clinical Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: side when it needs to, but you know. Lauren's kids are here, my nephews will come and sit and make art and they're always welcome is the thing. we want this space to be open for that too. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Well, let's talk about burnout a little bit because of most claire and lauren: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Griggs: most of the conversations that I've had lately, somewhere burnout becomes a a topic of discussion. And you guys got to see that firsthand working inside, you know, a a system that left people feeling drained in unfortunately in work where you can't really afford to be drained when somebody else claire and lauren: No. Kimberly Griggs: is is relying on you for that source, right? But how do you both today make sure that you don't recreate that same pattern inside, you know, the business that you built essentially to escape that? claire and lauren: Yeah, that's a great question. both of us, I think Claire's spoken to we were both hustlers, so like we had sometimes four jobs at a time. Not necessarily 'cause we absolutely needed it, but we wanted it in a sense. and then when you scale back from that workload, your body I think comes to a realization that you can't that's not maintainable. And then you you have like a reset almost of this is the new what my body can withstand. So then when you scale completely back, you're you're realizing, that absolutely isn't sustainable and I can't return to that. my body wouldn't let me. So we name this a lot. like, hey, I'm starting to feel like I'm, you know, unable to kind of shut off work and I'm I'm worried about that. Often it's like, okay, let's just rewind, right? Let's let's discuss why don't you take the weekend, shut everything off, right? It's a lot of holding each other accountable so that we don't reach that point. Kimberly Griggs: Mm. claire and lauren: and we also try to build self-care and respite and like comfort into our business in our space. Like, you know, we make sure we have our preferred coffee is here. easy to get. We want it every day, you can have it every day. there's no Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: stress about that, right? there's if there's something we need was electrolytes here available. Like if there's something we need to keep ourselves feeling good and well, it's no question that we're gonna to say, hey, yeah, that's a that's a makes sense as a business expense because our well being is integral to our success as business owners Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: and therapists and human beings. And I I know as we grow we really want to offer that too to the clinicians that that are partners with us and to our interns. So we have plans to, have a wellness stipend or offering, Kimberly Griggs: Wow. claire and lauren: events or opportunities for our our therapists to participate in some wellness stuff with us we definitely want to make sure that that's a a part of how we are structured and operate. Kimberly Griggs: I think that's so such an important thing to note as well, because you know, everyone is reevaluating, especially with the younger generation coming into the workforce, they prioritize different things. So I think for a business to think about, you know, what truly, and this gets this word I think gets overused a lot, but a work life balance. But what does that mean actually? And what benefit can we offer our team that Backs up that value. claire and lauren: Yeah. Yeah. I think, we talk about a clinician cap, quote unquote, because we can't really tell them that there's a cap, but we really want our clinicians to be well balanced. And I don't think seeing forty clients a week creates that balance at all. no matter what your home life looks like. It's always a conversation. It's easy to Kimberly Griggs: So speaking of the subject of growth, what does growth at this stage where you guys are now moving beyond the original two person dream team, what does claire and lauren: Mm-hmm. Kimberly Griggs: that look like to you guys claire and lauren: Well funny enough, we intended this fall to grow a little bit. So we in the beginning of this year we did hire a contractor. she's great. So she's we've been a team of three for a little bit and then we intended to take an intern on. because another big part of working in such a kind of small field is training people coming up, right? art therapists in training. That was important to us. We were like, let's let's make it happen. but part of what we've noticed in the last few months as we've been getting more, I guess, notoriety is like folks are reaching out. Can I intern with you? Can I you know I I really would like to like work with you maybe in the future. So we we planned for one intern. I think we have two coming on, and then we also there's another art therapist who's about to get her license, graduate license, and she's she's really wonderful. So we're like You things also happen where you're like, we don't want to let you go, right? so Kimberly Griggs: Yeah, exactly. claire and lauren: so we're going from a team of what three to six in like, you know, a short amount of time, which does require some hustle from us, but it's also we're looking at how to make sure we keep the balance between our responsibilities and roles and the work we're doing. what we're expecting of them or what they can bring to the space to as we're getting bigger, for them to fill up space too, right? We don't want to have 50 locations and be all over the place. I don't think that's really our speed. at each step we just check in to see does this feel good? Are we still okay with this? Yeah. Yeah. We took a couple of steps, but yeah but we're feeling good right now, I think I think so. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: So where do you see the business growing to, as it stands today? claire and lauren: That's a a really great question and and part of what we were supposed to do this past weekend was talk big picture. We didn't necessarily get that far. but I don't know. I don't I don't have a a real answer for that. Yeah. I think we we had thought probably our last time talking about it, we had thought like maybe maybe two locations, maybe up to ten. I'm just throwing numbers out, I don't know. But it was smallish. Yeah. And I feel like we've accidentally gotten close to maybe like, you know, we'll got into a lot of people. So but we're we're also doing a lot of looking at other practices that we really admire and whose structure Kimberly Griggs: Mm. claire and lauren: seems to be functioning the way we we would be interested in. so we want to like reach out to them and kind of ask what it's like, But I do think about having another office and especially if it was maybe closer to my house and I would hate working not in the same building as you. So that's another big conversation Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: 'cause we've just gotten such a good groove, Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: So we'll see. We'll see. Kimberly Griggs: Sounds like some unfinished business and that's okay. So what's claire and lauren: Yeah that's right. Nice. Nice little plug. Uh-huh. Kimberly Griggs: the biggest challenge between where the art room is today and where you want it to be? claire and lauren: Space. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, that we keep coming up with this conversation of not having a big enough space for what we want. Our dreams, those big picture dreams. Yeah. our space is lovely. It's a beautiful like seventeen hundred year old stone building. Very cute. And it sits right next to a creek and we have access to the backyard, which is like a kind of a open grass field area with a bunch of trees. it's just really nestled and and beautiful. However, it is tiny. It's two offices and an upstairs that's completely open into a group space. clearly that's not going to work. if we decide to grow some more. I think we really have a dream, a soon dream for us to have more of art studio admin space that's can stay that way, that isn't like a dual use and it's like it's ours. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. Have to clean up and get rid Yeah. claire and lauren: Yeah, quickly clean up right and let someone else Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: use. so that that was part of our dream for upstairs, then yeah, just the entrance to up here is in one of the clinical offices. So you can't have a session and also be up here, right? So just things we're thinking about. Kimberly Griggs: I wanna talk about who you are today versus who you are in 2023. So if you could go back to the moment claire and lauren: Mm. Kimberly Griggs: that you opened the door, what would you tell those two women as they entered? claire and lauren: Buckle up. Buckle up, baby. You have no idea Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: what you're doing. the amount of things I filled out, like thinking I needed to to create a business in Maryland. Like I just we have accounts probably that I don't even know of and need to close, but yeah. It it was a lot. Be patient with yourself, right? it's gonna happen in due time and I think we were like like yeah, we'll get full right away and we'll make tons of money, it'll be fine. And we've done great, like we truly have done great. but yeah, I mean we're not making buku bucks, you know, quite yet. I think be patient and buckle up. Yeah. Get an accountant. Get an accountant. Kimberly Griggs: I think that's good advice. claire and lauren: Yeah, right away. Kimberly Griggs: What's one thing that you would not tell those two women because you think they needed to learn it themselves? claire and lauren: I wouldn't reassure about the relationship because I think we needed to see that we could stumble rupture repair, rupture repair. that we could really build trust in the way that it it's been built. 'cause you had apprehensions about that was a big one, yeah. Friend and business. Friend in business. I mean that's like a big no no in my family and and the experiences that my dad in particular has had with his friends and yeah. So that's a really great one is we'll we'll figure everything will be okay. Yeah. but I'm glad I didn't know that. Yeah. I'm glad we had Kimberly Griggs: Mm. claire and lauren: to like figure that out together. Yeah. To keep proving Kimberly Griggs: Yeah, I love that you said that. claire and lauren: that, you know, to keep making the effort and keep proving that it's like this is right and that we can Trust each other. Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: I want to ask you both individually this next one, what's something that you're still figuring out that people might assume you already have? Claire, I'll let you go first. claire and lauren: Mm. man. I think people often think I am doing a lot better than I'm doing and like have it together, especially around like time management or organization. and I think I'm still figuring out what works best for me. And I probably always will be figuring out what works best in a moment, It's a struggle. I I still struggle with some of the smaller, seemingly easy pieces of our work. Like I her and our other contractor will be like, Yeah, I would never leave the office before I finish my notes and I just like sip my coffee on the side, like, well, like that's a conversation I'm not gonna join because it's like still tough. Like these are things that are still tough for me. I think people think I've got all my boxes checked and I come off as very confident. Got a of things to work on. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I share Kimberly Griggs: Mm. Well said. claire and lauren: that sentiment too. Absolutely. I think my people in my life sphere think that, you know, a successful business person, that can also juggle the hat of being a mom. But the truth is, like, I'm working a day and a half on my business in the business. 24 7, I'm running it in my brain somehow. Yeah. And Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: I'm being a somewhat stay at home mom with my children. So it's like Well, not somewhat. You're you are. Yeah, for the most part. I mean, I I have very little help and care, but definitely grateful for that help and care. yeah, so I think from the outside looking in, people definitely think, you know. Yeah. Got my buttons up and things are great, but it has moments where it just feels like everything's on fire. Kimberly Griggs: I fully, fully appreciate both of those answers. I'm gonna wanna be mindful of your time and I wanna again acknowledge you both for giving us language and processes that make sense to move forward. I I think this is going to be a helpful resource for anyone who's in the stage of growth with their business or adding team members, so many things that you've shared. I think we can take some valuable insights. So this is a hypothetical scenario, but let's just say, you know, you have done everything with the art room that you could possibly imagine doing. You've expanded beyond your wildest dreams. And there's no there's no reference or no guide to look back to. on what that journey entailed. but what you do get to leave behind for anyone aspiring to do what you have done and start their own business, you do get to leave behind the three most valuable lessons that you would share. What what would your three most valuable lessons be thus far? claire and lauren: Connection, connection to your community, people, all of that is so, so valuable. I would say your time is money. Like that, I think I often share that or say that to Claire is what do we actually want to spend our time on? Because yeah, we can find things cheaper, we can cut corners or whatever it is, but our time is money and valuable as well. So If it's an item, I'm like, sure, let's spend an extra thirty dollars or whatever it may be. But yeah, that frame of reference. and a third one. get clear on your must-haves on what you want. what's gonna be the thing that you keep returning to. because you're gonna need to constantly return to it. whether it be like a, you know, a mission statement of your ethics, your values, whatever it is. there's gonna be a lot of Crap that's gonna pull you in a million directions and it's gonna feel good in the moment, but does it actually build on the line? Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Yeah. claire and lauren: just trust the process, right? Like just That's such a coin term for our therapists, is like to just trust the process and trust whatever comes out is is meant to come out and meant to be present. and I definitely will share that for business owning and yeah operating as well as trust it. Just lean into it, lean into the uncertainty. Mm-hmm. Just go with it. Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: Thank you both for that. All right. Final question for you both. What is your unfinished business? Mm. claire and lauren: This lunch that I'm staring at. I know. Kimberly Griggs: Ha ha. claire and lauren: Yeah. I think we're leveling up right now. I think we're in a transition period to level up and it feels very open ended. Like there's just a lot of like loops to close. And yeah, so I feel like We're in a transformational period and this is that's our unfinished business. We gotta get to it. We gotta step into it, like with the imposter syndrome and all. Trust Kimberly Griggs: yeah. claire and lauren: that what we're doing is correct and makes sense and Mm-hmm. Yeah, we know what we're we know what we're doing and if we don't ask for forgiveness. Yeah. Kimberly Griggs: I love that. Well, again, thank you so much for spending some time with us and sharing the lessons and the the journeys that you've you've learned and experienced so far. Thank you for the work that you're doing. claire and lauren: Inky. Kimberly Griggs: any final thoughts, things to share. Where can we find you? Where can we learn more about the art room? claire and lauren: Yeah, you can go to our website, You can find us on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook. if you look up the art room CCH, you'll find us. So Center for Creative Healing. We're in Maryland. but we're game. We can we're working with people kind of across the country, depending on what it is. So if you have an idea, if you're interested in art therapy We would love to talk. Mm-hmm. Kimberly Griggs: Awesome. We'll be sure and link all of that information in the show notes. And again, appreciate you both. Thanks for being here. See ya. claire and lauren: Thank you. Thanks, Kimberly. Take care.