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Understanding the Spectrum of Autism · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Probably should know more than I do, but I'm looking forward to it.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: I really am.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in a very curious and open posture.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: I like stories, I like experiences, I like to know what something felt like from the person that's living in.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to do that.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like Joey and all the stuff that he's dealt with for his whole life.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: I can do my best.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm looking forward to it.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's all I'm trying to say.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_04: For so many autistic women, our nervous systems are constantly on high alert because we've spent our lives trying to anticipate expectations.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_04: Reclaiming my nervous system meant learning what calm actually feels like, not the absence of anxiety, but the presence of peace.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_04: We can all experience depression in similar ways and anxiety.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's much more common for optics to people.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_04: I saw roughly 30 to 40 percent experience one or both, but that's often because of the chronic overwhelm or the sensory overload, the masking.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_04: So anxiety can come from uncertainty or sensory chaos.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_04: Depression can show up at shutdown, fatigue, withdrawal.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, it's Brittany Gardner, and you're listening to Mental Health and the Mission of the Church.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Today, Chip Judd and Joey Svenson spent some time with Jen Jackson.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: Working in mental health for many years as a licensed therapist, Jen discovered well into adulthood that she is on the autism spectrum.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: As a woman with autism, she's been on a journey of learning to love and accept herself while also developing tools for navigating life in the healthiest way possible.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: She's the author of a workbook called Softly Wired, written especially for women with autism, but filled with personal reflections and insights that anyone can learn from.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's a powerful look at what autism really is and how understanding it can transform how we see ourselves and others.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: You'll find the links in the show notes for more information about Jen Jackson and her book Softly Wired.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: I'd say what I love most is just watching people start to soften toward themselves, to see that shift from self-criticism to compassion.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_04: And when someone begins to embrace who they are with curiosity instead of judgment, that's where real healing happens.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, Chip Judd here.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a pastor and a counselor.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Been doing it for quite a while.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you can't tell by one look at me, if you're watching this, Joey's here with me and uh a friend of his and mine, uh, but not as closely.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna have a really, really cool conversation about a really, really important topic.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we try to do around here.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: We just we're trying to get the church more attuned to the language and concepts of psychology and mental health, and we're trying to get the mental health community more attuned to the language and objectives of the church and kind of get the two talking and working together more uh intentionally and consistently.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna have a good conversation.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: We really are.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking forward to it very much myself.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Chip, you can refer to me as your sidekick.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: That actually just it just fits.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: It'll just flow.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Just say Joey, my sidekick here.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's that's basically what I am.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're you're the main guy here, and you know, obviously.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: So Joe Joey who Joey who kicks me in the side is right here beside me.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, Joey's one of my favorite punching bags.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: I like to uh my uh my love language is sarcasm.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't pick on you, I probably don't like you.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: So Joey must know how loved he is, because I pick on him mercilessly.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of how my family was.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well we're here with uh Jen Jackson, and she happens to be a longtime dear friend of mine, and it's super interesting because we're gonna be talking about her.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't we'll we'll find out if it's been released.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it has been, but it's called Softly Wired, and it's a workbook, and it's a very personal take on Jen's, and Jen, feel free, you can uh correct anything because I'm kind of speaking for you right now.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: But basically it's a it's a workbook that really unpacks her personal reflections and findings in her recent discovery of being on the spectrum of autism, and it was something that she did not discover until well into adulthood.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: And what's interesting is I was putting some notes together, Jen, is you and I, most of our time spent together, you know, as as married couples, like I I knew you before your discovery, like I haven't spent a whole lot of time with you post-discovery, so that's just kind of an interesting take.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And later on in the conversation, I do want to share one thing, having read your stuff, where I think back on our relationship, and I'm like, oh, that makes sense as to an observation that I had of you, but we'll get to that in a second.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: But tell people a little bit about yourself as far as your professional background.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: You've been a licensed therapist now for how long?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um, going on nearly a decade now.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yay, already?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, in my private practice, um, almost.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_04: But um, my early adult years, I worked as a social worker in Baltimore City and worked with people with HIV and AIDS.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_04: So I've spent a lot of my life walking alongside people on their healing journeys, which I love.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's awesome.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: What's what's like your and this may be a tough question to throw at you, is what's one of the reasons why you love your job?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like what's one of your favorite parts of what you get to do on a day-to-day basis?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_04: I'd say what I love most is just watching people start to soften toward themselves, to see that shift from self-criticism to compassion.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_04: And when someone begins to embrace who they are with curiosity instead of judgment, that's where real healing happens, and it's such a privilege to witness that.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: My heart is so tender right now because I I told you guys just the rough season I'm in.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm you're almost gonna make me cry now.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you're speaking to me, Jen.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I mean, if I could throw in there, Jen, that was a that was a beautiful description of what we do.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: That was man, that like Joey said, that that that was heart level.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: That was a heart level definition.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, thank you.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: That was sweet, man.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: I like that so that so how'd you put it?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Softening something about themselves.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: How'd you put that?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I just said watching people start to soften toward themselves.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_04: You know, and it helps us to soften toward others too.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_04: So Oh yeah.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's good, man.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Chip, I actually thought it would be fun, and it would have it would have taken all the fun out of it if I sent this to you and our prep notes.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: I want to put you on the spot.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I Oh, did you send me prep notes?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I know our friendship, so I know I'm not putting you on the spot, but you you told Jen before we even hit record that you're really here to learn and be educated because you don't know a whole lot about this.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say to someone who says, Hey Chip, what what is autism?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what would be your quick quick answer?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: What what do you gotta do?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: What are you doing this for, man?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what's your basic knowledge of it?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious what Jen will think about what you say.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I saw the movie The Accountant, and and he the main character's autistic, so that's my no, I'm kidding.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: That is true, but that is true, but um, and Jen, trust me, you can straighten me out.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: I promise.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um Yeah, it's all good.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I have some family uh stuff, uh, where I've been around it.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I would say it's a something's not working properly in the area of connection, communication.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and connection I mean emotions, connection, uh, communication, I would assume focus, distractability.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean to a point that's not uh it's not a software issue.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like with cognitive therapy, you're not thinking correctly.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hardware issue.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's something broken that's not working properly, and it's not talk therapy, it's not gonna fix it.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Talk therapy might help you manage it, but it's not gonna fix it.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm probably getting pretty close to the the length and depth of my knowledge.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Jen?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: How'd I do, Jen?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: A, B, C, D, F, did he flunk?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, a little bit there, but that's okay.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_04: I I kind of am, you know, I try to stand in the place of what he's thinking because on the outside looking in, maybe that's what it looks like to somebody.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_04: They call, you know, if you're not autistic, they call you neurotypical.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: So when you're neurodivergent, but I can see how maybe that's what it might look like from the outside.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_04: So I can kind of tell you what I think it is if you're ready.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_04: So I would say to me, autism is a different way of experiencing and processing the world.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_04: It's deeply, honestly, and sometimes intensely.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_04: It's a different wiring of the brain that affects how we sense, how we feel, how we connect, like you were saying.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_04: People on the spectrum tend to notice patterns and subtleties others might miss.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_04: We often feel things with this beautiful depth, which can also make the world feel louder and harder to recover from.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_04: For me personally, autism means I experience life in high definition.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_04: I pick up on tiny details, emotional shifts, energy in a room.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_04: And that can be both a gift and a challenge, but it is the reason I love so deeply.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_04: I notice beauty in small things, I crave authenticity in relationships.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_04: And so when I think of autism, I don't think of it as a limitation so much as I think of it as a way of being that's both sensitive and strong.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like a superpower, and I'm not making a joke, but like a strength.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I will, as we get into it more and more, it is a spectrum, but not like a linear one.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so it's not like you can be a little bit autistic or a lot autistic, it's just more of a a circular spectrum where you could see, you know, there's different challenges for sure for each person.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_04: Because no two people are alike in any part of the world, right?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_04: But we have similarities and similar struggles.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_04: And so saying it's a superpower sometimes isn't always the best thing to say because it is a real struggle, and we definitely do have challenges.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but we can get into more of that as we go.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: As your friend, I'm very curious as to whether or not growing up you recognize it doesn't seem like people function like me because you didn't have access to this diagnosis until well into adulthood.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: So did you recognize anything different as a kid?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_04: I think deep down I have always known, but I didn't always have words for it.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_04: Like as a kid, for example, I was very observant and sensitive.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_04: I was a deep feeler.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_04: My mom's told me that I would hide during like big social gatherings, she'd find me under a table.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_04: Like I was always looking for a quiet pocket away from the noise.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: I was extremely literal, which I still am.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_04: And I often seemed to be in my own world, kind of lost in thought or deeply focused on one thing.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_04: I could sense tension in a room before anybody spoke, and I struggled with transitions or group projects, I'd say.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_04: And then as I got older, I just masked, which we'll talk about what that means later, but masked by being overly responsible, overly empathic.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_04: I think people saw me as capable and high achieving, but internally I was exhausted.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_04: Growing up, I feel like um, this came to me earlier today, but always felt like everyone else had this invisible map, invisible map for how to be and exist, but I was missing mine.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um, like I always felt like a question, am I doing life right?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_04: I just feel like I can't get it right or figure it out.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_04: But definitely learn to adapt, to study people, how to blend in, you know, definitely always tried to be the wallflower.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_04: You know, don't notice me, don't pay attention to me.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and just just for my education, and I th you've already touched on it a little bit, but it would it be accurate to say that your lived experience of autism is going to be different from someone else's.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And could I go so far to say that I like I have no idea are there different types of autism and different levels?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like for the longest time I thought of autism as Dustin Hoffman on Rain Man.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like, oh, autistic people that can manage millions of facts in their head.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I was a kid, that's what I thought autism was.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Are there different forms and different levels?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I I thought of it the same way, of course, too.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_04: Because maybe we can talk about the levels and then the difference with boys and girls or men and women.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_04: But clinically, autism is diagnosed across three levels.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_04: So level one, two, and three, but that describes the amount of support a person needs, not their worth, intelligence, or capability.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_04: So for example, I'm considered level one, meaning I need less external support day to day, but I still need it.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like for me, support means I design my life in ways that can reduce autistic anxiety, like leaving a party early or maybe not going at all, or avoiding crowded stores during peak hours, or doing church online or shopping online.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_04: And I've learned that these choices I make aren't avoidance as much as they're self-preservation.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_04: It's how I can keep my nervous system balanced so I can show up fully for the people I love.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_04: And then if I can touch on the the boy thing, because um I think for decades autism research focused mostly on boys.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_04: So the diagnostic criteria was based on how autism tends to show up in them, like things like obvious social challenges or narrow, more narrow stereotypical interests.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_04: And girls, obviously, and women, it just shows up differently because we mask better.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_04: Our special special interests might look more socially acceptable, like people, animals, psychology, aesthetics.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_04: So it's easier to miss.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_04: Like I read a statistic um just yesterday that said about 80% of women diagnosed with autism weren't diagnosed until after the age of 18.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Whoa.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_04: So that really says a lot.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_04: It shows how many of us grew up feeling different, internalizing that difference just says something's wrong with me.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_04: When really no one thought to look for autism because we didn't fit the mold.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_04: But thankfully that's changing.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_04: I think more women are being recognized later in life.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_04: Not because it's suddenly become more common, it's just I think we're finally being seen for how it really looks in us.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: So when you were getting into your profession, did you did you take a class and learn about autism and then all of a sudden the light bulb went off and you're like, whoa, wait a second.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And like, how did you how did you get your diagnosis?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: How did you get that confirmation, I guess you could say?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, some of it growing up, even in my adult years, you know, I there was certain people in my life that weren't always kind and you know, would maybe say, like, oh, you're like this guy on TV that's autistic or whatever.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_04: And of course I would think about, well, could that possibly be true?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_04: But I would kind of just brush it off.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_04: But then um, 2019, I think it was, I just started thinking about it more and more.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_04: And I just think life was beginning to feel hard to manage and the world was getting louder and I was running out of energy.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_04: So I thought, maybe maybe I should look into this.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_04: So I started watching YouTube videos of autistic women and some men who described their inner worlds, and it was like someone had turned on a light in a room that I didn't know I was standing in.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_04: I took a few online assessments and everything pointed toward autism, and then eventually I saw a formal diagnosis um which I received in 2020.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Who did you go to for that diagnosis?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm sure everybody out there that hangs out of shingle to do counseling or whatever isn't qualified to do that, are they?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_04: No, I I I wouldn't say so.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_04: There's a place in North Carolina that I had looked into, I think at the hospital there at UNC possibly.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_04: If um don't quote me on that because I can't remember.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it's very, very expensive, and I think they have like long waiting lists.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_04: So especially for adults, it can be hard to pursue diagnosis.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_04: But there was um, she's a therapist and she's actually autistic as well.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_04: And she works closely with an MD in Canada, and uh she has her um assessments online, so I was able to take all of them without even paying for her services.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_04: But I did all the work with her, we did our interviews together, and I did like the first set of assessments, and then there was a whole nother set of assessments, and just all things for sure pointed towards it.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_04: But it wasn't so much as me needing the label because it's not like I needed accommodations in life to make life easier for me, but it just helped me connect the dots and just start to feel that compassion instead of confusion and self-criticism.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, looking at the workbook pretty in-depth last night.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, seriously, even how it looks like job well done.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and it's super insightful, so much information, and then at the same time, it's very personal.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think you wrote it for uh geared towards other women that would possibly be reflecting on on being autistic, maybe they have that diagnosis b diagnosis, but I'll say it just it feels very educational in a very poetic way because you're sharing personally, uh, but you're also sharing good information.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll read real quick, says so.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: This is from your uh voice.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: I've written this workbook from the perspective of an autistic woman who is still healing, still unmasking, still finding softness in her own body.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've also written it as a therapist, a mom, and a former version of myself who was constantly trying to be palatable.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a few questions, just almost more groundwork.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like most of this conversation will be groundwork because Chip and I are I'm definitely starting at z at zero with my knowledge of autism.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: But what is what you mentioned reclaiming your nervous system, and I really I like how that sounds, but I don't know what you mean uh in the workbook I read, Reclaiming Your Nervous System.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean by that?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_04: So when I say reclaiming my nervous system, I mean it it means learning to live from safety instead of survival.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_04: For so many autistic women, our nervous systems are constantly on high alert because we've spent our lives trying to anticipate expectations.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_04: Reclaiming my nervous system meant learning what calm actually feels like.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um, not the absence of anxiety, but the presence of peace.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: I like the sound of that.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, things like that, your answer to that question, would that apply to male autistic as well as female?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like everything you just said, does a male need to reclaim his nervous system if that's the right word?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, for sure.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_04: Some of my favorite autistic people I follow are males.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_04: There's one in particular that I can relate to tons of ways.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_04: I actually send these reels to my husband so he can understand me better and better.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_04: And every time he watches his videos, he says, It sounds like you, like every bit of it.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_04: So I do think this is human for sure.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then you you've mentioned this before, but clarify again, uh, neurodivergent.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean again?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_04: It just means that your brain processes and experiences the world differently than what's considered typical.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_04: So it actually includes autism, but also ADHD dyslexia.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, some circles even put OCD in that category of neurodivergence.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: But not like depression and anxiety, that would be a different deal.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, that would be more of mood disorder.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, neurodiversity is just your brain is definitely wired the way it processes and experiences the world.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, Jen, I'm comfortable enough with our relationship.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think we'll both get a chuckle out of this.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell Chip.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: So the the thing that a light bulb went off in my head is Jen, there were times in our friendship, and you know me, I've uh crazy sense of humor, make people feel awkward, just kind of bizarre and how I make people laugh.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember there were times and I'm like, Jen and I are are close.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Why did why did she react that way?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: I would say something preposterous that it seemed to most people, it was obvious that it was a joke, but I would see your face go complete, like almost horrified that I would say such a thing, but then once you caught on to everybody laughing, you it almost looked like took a sigh of relief, and you were able to smile and laugh too, which seems to be connected to what you said as far as taking everything literal.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, what kind of jokes did I say around Jen that she just heard as literal?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like all of a sudden you're like, Who is this guy?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, am I on to something?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: You absolutely are.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Boy, would I be in trouble?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, and that is honestly how, and I've gotten better and better as I've gotten older, like to understand people's language.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I saw like you and Chip could not be friends.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you that now.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: He's sarcastic about everything.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_04: I disagree.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_04: I disagree.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_04: I I disagree.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_04: My husband is sarcastic, but in the sweetest kind of way.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_04: But it yeah, I've I've learned.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_04: I'm I it's almost like people who speak different, like if English isn't your first language, you know, they go through, they have to translate in their head of, you know, whatever.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_04: Some people can do it super fast, other people might take longer.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_04: When people communicate and it's not like say what you mean, mean what you say kind of thing.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_04: I have to translate it in my mind of okay, this is a joke.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_04: So if it's a joke, then this is what he really means.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it it's pretty exhausting.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_04: But I've gotten much better at it.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_04: And so I can get there a little quicker.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I talked to a a mutual friend over the years with Seacoach.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: You may even know the person, but uh really, really, really smart person.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: But emotionally just say me.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: You can just say I was talking to Joey.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember having this fascinating conversation because this person's definitely very emotionally flat's not exactly the right word, but definitely does not have normal responses.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember him telling me one time that what he would have to do is like he's he's getting ready to go into a meeting.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: He he would literally have to coach himself on getting himself in the right place.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, this person, this person, this person's gonna be here.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, this person, you know, it is sarcastic, let's say.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And he he would have to, because he said, when I'm in the room, he said, I can't read the room.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so he's smart enough that he could he could predict the room, you might say, and almost like plan what his responses were gonna be.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_04: And that would be an example of of masking, you know, that we we have to rehearse things before we go into a room, plan what we'll say in a conversation, just yeah, to be to be prepared.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: So masking is not necessarily a negative thing.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's a survival thing.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_04: So it's do you want me to go into that a little bit?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean you you say you want to unmask, right?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just just going through uh your workbook, it sounds like masking is survival, but to be free, you need to unmask unless I'm off.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think you got it.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, masking can look really subtle, especially for women, because we've spent so much of our lives trying to blend in or make other people comfortable.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_04: So for me, and I think I I just speaking for autistic women that I've read about enough that masking can look like smiling and laughing even when something feels overwhelming or confusing, just you don't seem rude or different.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_04: Rehearsing conversations in your head, kind of like what you were saying, Chip, about your friend, but rehearsing conversations before you say something, replaying them after to make sure you didn't sound weird, mimicking tone, facial expressions, or body language so you appear relaxed or normal, even when you're anxious inside.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's exhausting.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh, Jen.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_04: Overapologizing, softening your truth so others won't think you're too blunt or too intense.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_04: Saying yes when you desperately need rest because saying no feels unsafe or maybe selfish.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_04: Suppressing um stimming things, which are usually ways to comfort yourself.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like some you've heard of people rocking and things like that that are on the spectrum.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_04: I tend to mess with my hands or point my toes or whatever, but you know, so you wouldn't cover your ears when a sound hurts, or you force yourself to stay in a crowded place when you should be fine, or even something as simple as making eye contact when it feels unnatural or painful, because we've been told that's what good communication looks like, you know.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_04: So the hardest part is that masking often works, so people don't see us struggling, you know, nobody knows.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_04: But underneath it's exhausting, like you said, disconnects you from your body and your truth.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Would you say some of that stuff is just the bummer necess necessity of functioning in this society as an autistic person?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, well, I absolutely I have to do some of this stuff to fit in.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I but it it could just be excessive to where you're masking too much.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_04: Like for me now it it is more me saying no to certain things.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because I just know that my system can't handle any more that day.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_04: Especially when I'm with my family and I'm I'm home, I can totally just be myself and know that if I have a need to retreat or go into the room or turn the lighting down low, keep the sounds to like overlapping sounds are really challenging.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_04: So, like just keeping the sounds to a minimum, just meeting needs that you feel like you have that, and of course I'm always gonna be to not inconvenience the people around me too much because this is my thing.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_04: I don't want to make it everybody's thing, you know.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and again, you're saying a lot of things that just trigger like uh curiosity and questions, and just being a counselor myself, I love to try to get inside of what someone's presenting.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like what what must that feel like?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: What must whatever?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you said overlapping sounds.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: If you would give an example of that and then explain what does that do to you, or what do you you know what I'm saying?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: What do you feel?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Where does that just to help me try to get my head inside of it?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I would say the sensory things is that's where um 90% of people that are on the spectrum have some sort of sensory needs or sensory issues.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_04: So like bright, bright lighting, it it's painful.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_04: I don't there's like it's hard to describe, but there is like a physical pain.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um, the sounds, if I and I it's it's a contradiction because we and I've heard this from a lot of people that are on the spectrum, but I can put on headphones and blast a song that I love and feel totally regulated and calm.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_04: But you put that sound on speakers, and then you have people having a conversation, and then maybe someone else trying to talk to you at the same time, it literally feels like your brain's on fire.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, when my kids were younger, my adult kids were younger, it would just like you'd lose your cool because you're like, Stop, everybody's gotta stop.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_04: This is too much.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_04: But now I know I can just duck away, I can go put my headphones on, or tell my kid who's trying to get my attention, hey, let's go somewhere quiet so we can talk.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Can I say something and you tell me if it makes sense?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: I guess.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: I remember reading years ago uh when I first started to get intrigued by the brain, and it's it's been so helpful over the last decade or more.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember years ago, a gentleman, I can't remember which book it was, but he said, um, the hardest work your brain is doing is determining what not to pay attention to.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: And in other words, he said, You're you're being bombarded with potentially millions of stimuli.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: He said the hardest work your brain's doing is choosing which ones are important enough to pay attention to, to give attention to.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm wondering, as I listen to you, is autism somewhere connected to the brain's ability to say what matters and what doesn't, what's dangerous and what's not, what's helpful.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is that making sense?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_04: I think so.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, and I'm still learning.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like I have a ton, ton to learn.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I do feel like I've done that most of my life where my brain is working really hard to know what is important in this situation or how can I am I safe in this situation?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_04: What do I need to feel safe?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_04: So, yeah, what you're saying makes sense, but I'd have to I'd have to think about it longer.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And Jen, as a sidebar, you do a really, really, really good job of putting your words together in a way that is most counselor types use counseling words.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm watching the room, and you can watch people just they just eyes glass over and they're like, I don't know what language you're talking, but it's not and you just have a very nice way you word things.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: You really do.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's very, very it's clear, it's fairly direct.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, not I don't mean direct in an unpleasant way, but in a very pleasant way.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: You do a good job.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: You really do.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: You got three really's Jen.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: He said, really, really, really.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's three really, really, really.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_04: I really, really appreciate that.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_04: Really, really.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Joey, you are really, really, really a pain in the you know one.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much good stuff to get into that we won't have time on in this workbook.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it just got my head spinning, man.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: In a good way.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: In a good way.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like you giving the listeners the core traits of the autistic brain, and then I think I can probably fit three more questions in if, you know, but this is Chip's podcast, so he may have more follow-up questions.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'll have to cross some of my mind.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm I'm enjoying the heck out of it.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: But what are the core traits of the autistic brain?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's pretty informative what you wrote.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um, the big sensory differences I told you about the lights might feel brighter, sounds sharper, certain fabrics can be unbearable while other sensations feel grounding or even euphoric.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_04: Our senses also don't really filter, they take in everything at once.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_04: So then, like you said, Chip, then the brain's gotta do the extra work of trying to figure out what what's important to filter out or keep in.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_04: But people on the spectrum have very focused interests, things we dive into deeply where time disappears.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_04: And these aren't just hobbies, these are how we make sense of the world and find calm.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um, socially, we prefer depth over small talk, honesty over performance.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_04: Many of us communicate directly and value real connection, but of course, too much social noise can be draining.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_04: Not because we don't care, but often because we care so much.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_04: Emotionally, autistic people are usually deep feelers, even though it can appear, especially I think in guys, like there's they're more flat, but it's there.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_04: We notice subtleties, the energy, the tone, empathy can run strong, but expressing it in expected ways can be hard, especially when overwhelmed.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_04: People on the spectrum room um rely on predictability and structure because it gives our nervous system safety.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: Change or chaos can feel intense, but with consistency, we can thrive.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_04: Underneath all of that is a sense of fairness and truth and authentic authenticity.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_04: Most autistic people have a built-in compass for justice, we're right, we're wired for integrity.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_04: So when you put it all together, the autistic brain is a pattern-seeking, deeply feeling, highly perceptive nervous system.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_04: It's not just sensitive, it's attuned.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like all the characteristics and traits of autism, it sounds like they're not unique to autism in the same way that uh sadness isn't unique to depression.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can you can struggle with sadness, and people can have some of those uh traits that you've listed, but it not necessarily be due to autism, but all of that comprehensively really does give uh a a better feel, at least for me, in autism as a as a as a general term that I just didn't know much about.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Would you say that what you are educating Chip and I on right now, can there be general application?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like can't like learning from you today, are we learning I mean, obviously partly we are learning Jen's specific story of her discovery and what she's learned about herself and autism, but are a lot of these also general principles that Chip and I can walk away from and say, oh, we we understand autism in general better having listened to Jen.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_04: Well, do you do you feel like that at this point?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I definitely feel like we've learned uh what I'm saying is are are these general applications also?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: So what you just just described as traits, would you say that this these mostly match up with most autistic people?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say so.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_04: From what from what I understand, yes.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh, even you said something about some uh fabrics being unbearable and some almost euphoric.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, I crazy is a bad choice of word.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's I'll say crazy neat.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: How about that?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, crazy cool.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, crazy cool.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Joey, I'll I'll I'll talk to you about being more careful with your words later.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm I'm not the therapist.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm the right person to do that, right?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: So Jen, I know excuse me one second, Joey.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: I and I don't know, it may not be as relevant as I think it is or whatever, but way back you said there's three levels, and you described number one, which you're at.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think we need to talk about two and three or not?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I wouldn't, I'm not prepared to give you like the right educated answer, but um it it's just about the level of support needs.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_04: So it just gets goes higher, obviously, as you know, you go to level two, the support needs are greater, and level three, they're the greatest support needs.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: So a level three, and again, forgive me if I word things insensitively or inappropriately, a level three might be in some sort of a facility.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um in other words, they can't they can't do life on their own out there.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_04: I would say that would that would be a way to generalize that, yeah.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm pretty sure, Jen, I know the timeline in that you did most of your so you've got two kids in their twenties, then you've got uh darling little girl that you said's eight.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, Nebby is eight.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: So so you did your parenting with the older two pre discovering all autism, I think, and now you're parenting once again, bringing up another child into five years she'll be a teenager with this knowledge of of you and kind of an explanation for why you think the way and feel the way that you do.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: Are you parenting differently, like more informed in a way that takes better care of you and is perhaps better for your child?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_04: So, in an answer, I'd say yes, but in a longer answer, I would say I've always loved being a mom.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_04: That's always been the most important role in my life from the very beginning.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_04: My goal was to have authentic, connected relationships with my kids.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_04: With Ella and Nolan, I didn't know I was autistic, but I I love them deeply, and I often felt for sure overwhelmed.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_04: Like I didn't know how to do any of it right.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_04: I I know that when they were young growing up, I overcompensated by at times striving for perfection, definitely experiencing burnout, trying to match what I thought parenting was supposed to look like.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_04: I think my strengths, like empathy and intuition, attention to detail, helped me focus on their well-being and to teach them how to survive in a world that isn't always gentle.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_04: But with Nevi, it's different because I understand myself so much more now.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_04: Like you said, I'm more aware of my sensitivities, my need for rest, my capacity for connection.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_04: So that awareness helps me to be more fully present with her in the time that we do have together to slow down, to co-regulate, and to see her as a whole person instead of focusing on just getting everything right.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_04: And now I get to mother all three of them from a place of awareness, not anxiety.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_04: And that's made all the difference.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: A random observation, Jen.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sitting here wondering because I have this, I have the counter conversation, like had my campus pastor call this morning.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: One of the side trips of conversation.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: You might need to tell your listeners what the campus pastor call is.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: Just I I meet every every other Wednesday, twice a month with our campus pastor.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: We've got like 14 campuses or something.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we meet, and it's it's not an operational call, it's more of a connecting, trying to build trust, trying to build a culture of uh grace and truth where you can feel uh unconditionally, non-judgmentally loved and accepted, but also share when you're struggling and and and be challenged when you need to be challenged.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we talk about a lot of stuff, and one of them is that unfortunately uh a revolutionary behavior in our current moment of history is just learning to separate yourself and be quiet and and and and kind of honor the essence of who you are and protect it and that kind of thing.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: And as I'm listening to you, Jen, I thought of a different another word to put to your communication style.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's a clarity as you speak.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: You don't sound like you're thinking three things and picking one out to say, like most people do most of the time.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm wondering if it's not because of the way you've had to learn to live, as you put it, just to survive, but as a unintended is not the right word, but almost as an unintended consequence, as you put it, there's an integrity and authenticity to the expression of your your essence, your your personality.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because it feels it feels different.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: I talked to lots of people, and it feels more solid than most people.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I'm guessing, and I'm and I mean that, Jen, I'm guessing, that it's because you've had to learn how to protect the essence of who you are in ways that some of us don't have to, although we should.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_04: It does, and that's a really nice thing to say.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_04: And I think I think just not even just being autistic, but also just life.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, I've experienced traumas and different things, I think all of it just shapes who you are, and I have really grown to appreciate who I am.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_04: And that's a world apart from what I used to be.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_04: I had a lot of self-hatred for a very long time, and I have truly learned to love who I believe God made me to be.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, man.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome, Jen.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll be honest with you, Jen, in my experience, you know, 45 years pastoring counseling, I would put it as high as 90% of the people you're gonna meet every day have the same challenge.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm talking committed Christians, I'm talking, I'm talking pastoral leaders.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they've really never learned how to just enjoy being who they are.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so sad.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely is.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: What is sensory?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I think I I think I can use contact clues in the bit that I read last night, sensory needs, but I'd love for you to tell Chips listeners about sensory sovereignty.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is it pretty much just taking charge and deciding what sorts of senses you're exposed to and not being apologetic about it?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, pretty much.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um I nailed it.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_04: You pretty much say it my way, but yeah, I like that.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: If I had a little ringer ring or something, I'd ring it for you, Joey.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: We need one of those for the podcast.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Every time I say something good, Chip Chip rings a bell.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a good one.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: It would it would collect so much dust.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Come on, man.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Jen, what were you gonna say on the book?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_04: You were telling me to answer that.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:26
  unknown: Okay.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I'd say it it means like we talked about it before, it means having the right to create an environment that supports my body and nervous system.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_04: So that's the sovereignty.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_04: Like I said, choosing the lighting, the sounds, the textures, even the pacing that help me function well when I have the ability to do that.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's teach it's even teaching my kids the same thing, or especially the my younger kid, but that they're allowed to notice what feels good or overwhelming, and they can adjust without without shame.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: I would assume that necessitates at times a certain amount of negotiation.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, does that make sense?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_04: Say more about that.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, like I love loud music.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: So my wife and I are on a long trip, and let's say she shared some of these challenges, she wouldn't let me play my music loud.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we'd have to negotiate.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I wear headphones or something.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I just pulled an example out of the air, but it just seems like there would be the need to, you know, be compassionately responsive to each perspective.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's probably environments in which you have no sovereignty.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you have no say.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_04: Hence why I do my shopping.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: Other than whether or not to put yourself in that place.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's your sovereignty.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I am in a relationship where my partner is so loving, and I certainly haven't I credit a lot of my unmasking and ability to be where I am now to his love, and he's so patient and understanding about things, and I certainly like he turns the lights up bright in the bathroom because he's got a plucking eyebrow, and I stay out until he's done because that'll make my head hurt.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_04: So but then he'll see me coming and he'll turn the lights down, you know.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_04: So it's it's definitely a dance, and sure one with with him has honestly been easy.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_04: But I know for a lot of women on the spectrum for the with the groups that I follow on Facebook, relationships are tough.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_04: You know?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: So just gonna throw a scenario at you.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're to go to um uh an acquaintance, it's a friend of a friend, but you're in a a city and they're like, Hey, your your your best friend says, Hey, I got a friend that lives there, she'll let you stay in her house, I'm sure.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, Okay, that makes sense.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: I can save money, and that may not be something that you do, but let's say you do and the for at the dining table they have crazy bright lights or some other things.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: Would you communicate on your behalf with people that you would assume they wouldn't oppose, but you're also you don't know them that well?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, would you speak up in in that kind of situation?
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_04: Probably not.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: Would you possibly not take advantage of the offer because it does get touchy, complicated, tricky?
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, I'll just stay in the hotel.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_04: I it just depends on the situation.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_04: For sure.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I'm I'm just kind of wired to I'm gonna always think of others before myself as much as possible.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm learning to think of myself too.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_04: It it's a balance, you know, it just depends.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_04: I think uh right now, probably I'm gonna say no to doing a lot of these extra outside things.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: Not the of the same nature, but but similar in the sense of boundaries.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: After my surgery and my need to, you know, I don't have a much of an immune system because of the anti-rejection.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm talking about, Jen, right?
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: My lung tr I had a double lung transplant.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah in December.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's been quite a journey, as you can imagine.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: I bet.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Not to get distracted by it, but believe it or not, the the wife of the gentleman committed suicide, whose lungs I now have, is a policeman, and his wife and kids are coming to Charleston this weekend.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: And they're gonna hang out with me and all my kids.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be I mean, I've had several people say, You gosh, you guys need to make a movie out of this thing.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_04: Really?
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: But my point is that's amazing.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: I have to have the environment controlled.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so somebody will say, Hey, can you do blah, blah, blah?
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll say, Well, I don't know.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk a minute.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll say, I can't do this, I can't do this, uh, I've got to wear a mask.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't wear a mask, everybody else has got to wear a mask.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll lay out kind of the ground rules, and then we decide.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think we can make that happen.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I know it's not the same thing, but it's a great thing.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's temporary.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's temporary to say, for now, I've you know, you want to spend time with me, you we gotta do it in some awkward ways.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, my last question it caught my eye as far as depression and anxiety being framed up differently for people with autism.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, when I say different, obviously we can all experience depression in similar ways and anxiety, so it's not like it's just completely different, but it's I think it's much more common for autistic people.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_04: The the stats I saw roughly 30 to 40 percent of autistic people experience one or both.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: Dang.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_04: But that's often because of the chronic overwhelm or the sensory overload, the masking, living in constant adaptation.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_04: So anxiety can come from uncertainty or sensory chaos.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_04: Depression can show up as shutdown, fatigue, withdrawal.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_04: Not always maybe as sadness, but a loss of connection to self.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_04: So I think and like this is I can only speak from my own experience, experience, but a lot of healing has started with more nervous system safety now, more predictable routines, sensory regulation as much as I can, better sleep, um, therapy ad adapted to autism.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_04: So it's less about fixing the emotions and more about supporting the environment we live in, I think that can actually help reduce some of the depression and anxiety.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I've actually heard that people with chronic physical pain, depression the percentage is way higher.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so it makes sense like when someone has to function with these sorts of uh challenges that for depression to have a higher percentage rearing its ugly head for people with autism.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Jen I mean, I can only assume that I mean, you know, anxiety anxiety and depression have a a a chemical response cause both uh in the brain.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: So is as I sit here and kind of imagine, I would I would assume that the fight, flight, freeze response in the in and that we all have, I would assume that it's being triggered more frequently and intensely in someone who's you know, some of these sensory situations that we're talking about.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then what a lot of people I work a lot with leaders and what they don't understand is unabated chronic stress um translates into anxiety, translates into lowered serotonin and cortisol levels rising.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the bottom line is it trend the feeling that accompanies it is depression and anxiety.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I guess I'm just thinking out loud to make sure that I'm thinking that it would make sense that uh depression and anxiety would be a real challenge.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking of something else, Jen.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: You were, you know, you've talked a lot about how you've learned and you're learning so much about how to how to manage your environment, et cetera, et cetera.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Would you agree that anybody, anybody, they're more likely to feel peaceful, content, whatever, if they feel like they have uh some degree of agency.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm intentionally avoiding the word control, just feeling like I have some say in where I go, how I'm treated, what I say yes to, what I say no to.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you what to me, what I hear in you, Jen, is you're recovering um a sense of agency.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have to go to that.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't have to go visit this friend that totally ignores the unique needs that I have.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: Fine, they must not want to be my friend.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because if they're not willing to adjust, I I'm not gonna be there.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's underneath it all, there's this sense of, and I think that's part of that, that, that clarity that I feel, you know, and you talked about self-loathing earlier, but I think part of it is you you're owning your your uh right to agency, you know, that whole uh internal and external locus of control.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: You're realizing that, you know, there's I got more of that on the inside than I used to think.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_04: Well said, yeah, for sure.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Jen, I love you.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: You're a dear friend, and congratulations.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh is this gonna be on Amazon?
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how will people it first?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: I guess tell us when this will officially be released and then where people can get it.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_04: So as of right now, it's uh looks like a hardcover will be released on Halloween on Amazon.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, and then I'm also gonna have it on a site called Lulu L-U-L-U.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_04: And that's the one I prefer people to get it from once it's there because it'll be a little bit cheaper.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_04: But I will keep you posted.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha, gotcha.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to apologize for all the bizarre joking in our friendship that probably gave you a heart attack.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry about that.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_04: Love you, Joey.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_04: Love you dearly.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Jen, I'm just planting the seed for the future, but I I would like to do this again sometime.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we've only scratched the surface on what you're capable of sharing in the area of autism.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: But just because it's something I do myself, I would love to hear you talk some about how you show up as a therapist, how you sort of uh compensate's not the right word, but I mean counseling's a fairly intensive, can be emotionally.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, just a lot of different layers to it at times.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: I would just be interested in dialogue with you.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be interested in dialogue with other counselors anyway, because we don't we don't do that much.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like we're afraid to share our secrets or something.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: I would just love to plan to see to both of you that let's do this again sometime, maybe after the first year or something.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'd love that.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_04: Appreciate you guys.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: This has been awesome.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Really, really appreciate it.