Latest / The Camp Owners Podcast / Coaching Staff Who Struggle to Receive Feedback - with Dave Brown - The Camp Owners Podcast #75

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Coaching Staff Who Struggle to Receive Feedback - with Dave Brown - The Camp Owners Podcast #75 · The Camp Owners Podcast

0:39
SPEAKER_00: On this episode of the Camp Owners Podcast, we're thrilled to welcome Dave Brown, who is a licensed clinical social worker, the founder of Fence Post Learning, and also the director of Mountain Camp near Lake Tahoe.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: Dave is incredibly gifted in really understanding working with staff and how to work with them in a brain-aligned way and be able to give them some feedback.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: So that's what we're talking about today.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: We're talking about giving staff feedback in a way that really helps them to receive it.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: He's using a lot of David Yeager's 10 to 25 tools and tips.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: We think you'll get a lot out of this, especially leading into camp.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: We're super grateful for Dave's time, and we hope you enjoy it.
1:21
SPEAKER_03: This is the Camp Owners Podcast from Go Camp Pro, exploring best practices and issues that professionals in the private camp industry face every day.
1:30
SPEAKER_03: You can find our show notes at gocamp.pro slash ownerspod.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: Activity schedules are the backbone of every camper's experience.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: If there's a staffing change, it's really hard to find a person that knows your camp and the nuance your schedule takes.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Come check out Camptivities to learn more about our scheduling tools designed for camps by camp people.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Find out more at camptivities.com.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Camp Owners Podcast, a space for camp owners to talk about the unique aspects of camp ownership and get inspired by each other.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: We sit down with camp industry experts, leaders, and fellow camp owners to discuss the big issues in the private camp world.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: Hello, everyone.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: My name is Kelly Shuna.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: I co-own and direct Hidden Pines Ranch Daycamp, located in Stillwater, Minnesota.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: Hi, everybody.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm Howie Grossinger and I co-own and direct Camp Robinhood in the suburbs of Toronto, Canada.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: If you are looking to find and subscribe to the Camp Owners Podcast, you can either find us online at gocamp.pro slash ownerspod or by searching for us in your favorite podcast app.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Finally, if you're listening to this and think it would be useful to other camp owners or aspiring camp owners in your network, please feel free to send them a note to listen.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: And just want to kick things off by giving a huge thank you to the team at Camptivities who are our sponsor and help keep the lights on and are so supportive for all they do.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: So big thanks to Ryan Rosen and the team over there for all they do to allow Kelly and I to do this.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: Hi Kelly.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: Hi, Howie.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: How are you?
3:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: Middle of conference season.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: Has conferencing been good for you?
3:13
SPEAKER_00: It's been great.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: I've seen all my people.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: It's hard to like not keep going to them.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, ooh, can I just go to tri-state?
3:19
SPEAKER_00: Oh, how does this work?
3:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I love it.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: And you've also had your big like 80th staff reunion party recently.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: So you're conferencing and celebrating big milestones.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like these are the best parts of camp in so many ways.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: You get to network with the people who you know in the industry, and then we got to celebrate recently an amazing the kickoff to our 80th anniversary celebrations with a staff alumni event and so reaffirming and so wonderful, as many people probably have heard in the past.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: We're in a third generation of camp here at Robin Hood, and it just was the best way to kick off.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: So, for any of you out there celebrating milestones, do it.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: Any any reason to celebrate and getting your community together, I highly, highly encourage it.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: I like that you did it now too, Howie.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: As things are starting to like heat up for summer, I bet it's a good, like, okay, this is why we're doing this.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: This is making all these things worth it that we're putting into making camp successful.
4:18
SPEAKER_01: So I think I think that the benefit of being a day camp, we attract local people over many decades.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: So it's not an ask to come from various areas.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: And I know we've had conversations on I encourage people to listen to past episodes where we address celebrating.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Camp Foley comes to mind.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: Remember that conversation?
4:37
SPEAKER_01: How they brought everybody in, and many people have uh a weekend dedicated, especially at slepaway camps.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: So whatever you choose to do, just do it because it's a great way of staying connected.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: And we're all in the business of having more business.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: So the more you people keep your people connected, the more they're gonna want to send family and friends to your camp.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: So that's a huge benefit as well.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: So keep keep your camp relevant in everybody's lives, and we're all gonna be successful.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: You can only aspire to celebrating our ADS.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: So awesome.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, today, Howie, I'm super excited for our guest.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: We're thrilled to have Dave Brown, licensed clinical social worker.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: I hope I got all those initials right.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: Dave, you'll tell me later.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: But Dave is kind of like this awesome duality, I would say, in the camp world, like an amazing professional with his social work experience.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: He is the founder of Fence Post Learning.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: So he brings that to the camp world and is also a director at Mountain Camp near Lake Tahoe.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: So he's just got that awesome, like professional outside career and inside career of camp.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: So he's an awesome resource.
5:45
SPEAKER_00: We're super excited to talk to him today.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: He does a lot of work with training camp staff on the skills that they need to support kids.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna learn a lot today, Howie.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: Are you ready?
5:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm ready.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's do this.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: So welcome, Dave.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: We're so happy to have you.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to our show.
6:00
SPEAKER_04: Thanks so much for having me.
6:01
SPEAKER_04: I'm grateful to be here.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, we're we're equally grateful.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: Equally grateful.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: So, can we start by having you give us like your camp origin story?
6:10
SPEAKER_00: How did you get where you are today with both of those things?
6:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
6:14
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's so fun to get to do.
6:16
SPEAKER_04: So I had the the privilege and and the great fortune to be able to go to mountain camp where I work now as a camper.
6:23
SPEAKER_04: So I started off when I was 10 years old and went there through the you know counselor and training program.
6:30
SPEAKER_04: And then I was a dishwasher for half a summer and a young counselor when I was 17, 18 years old.
6:35
SPEAKER_04: So it was really the first place that like I worked with kids professionally and realized how meaningful that job was.
6:44
SPEAKER_04: And and I just loved it.
6:46
SPEAKER_04: And so when I graduated from college, I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do.
6:49
SPEAKER_04: I'm I'll go work with kids because this is like the thing that that I feel like I have experience in and that I know matters.
6:56
SPEAKER_04: And so I went and got a job as a paraprofessional at a treatment facility for kids with with emotional disturbance.
7:04
SPEAKER_04: And so these were kids with really intense issues, and I worked both in a classroom and in the cottage setting, the where they lived, because these were all kids who were living away from their families and going to school away from their families.
7:17
SPEAKER_04: And so I just learned a lot about really working with kids, about crisis management, about trying to build social skills.
7:24
SPEAKER_04: And that's where I realized that I wanted to do more of the mental health track.
7:29
SPEAKER_04: I liked working with kids one-on-one or in small groups much more than like managing a classroom or teaching academics, which I didn't really do there, but I kind of saw from that perspective of being in the classroom.
7:39
SPEAKER_04: So then I went back and did a social work degree and focused on children and families and school social work specifically.
7:46
SPEAKER_04: And so when I graduated from that, I started working in the public schools and I had my summers free just naturally from the schedule.
7:53
SPEAKER_04: And so I actually found my way back to camp more as like, oh, I should do something with my summer.
8:00
SPEAKER_04: And I was I ended up back at mountain camp in like kind of a you know a mid-level leadership position and did that back and forth for a couple of years.
8:10
SPEAKER_04: And at that point, they offered me a year-round position, and I was really struggling to enjoy the school social work.
8:17
SPEAKER_04: It was incredibly difficult.
8:18
SPEAKER_04: And then I would go to camp every summer, and not only did I love it, but I found that those social work skills were so applicable to summer camp.
8:27
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, actually, you know, it was it was hard.
8:29
SPEAKER_04: It was like, am I really gonna leave social work after only three years after getting the degree and all of this time and effort put into it?
8:37
SPEAKER_04: But when I was at camp, I was so happy and I felt that you know useful.
8:42
SPEAKER_04: And so I did that.
8:43
SPEAKER_04: So since 2010, I've been full-time year-round camp director for Mountain Camp.
8:48
SPEAKER_04: And yeah, and it's been great.
8:49
SPEAKER_04: And I focus mostly on staff hiring and staff training, and that's where I bring a lot of the social work perspective in is kind of the staff training work.
8:58
SPEAKER_04: Um yeah.
8:59
SPEAKER_04: And then in 2020, when everything shut down with COVID, I ended up starting Fence Post Learning basically because I had a bunch of free time on my hands again, but also because a shout out to Wake, the Western Association of Independent Camps, I was talking with a number of camp directors through that who were saying we really could use more training around mental health.
9:19
SPEAKER_04: Our staff need to know more about mental health, how to support campers who are struggling, how to support themselves.
9:24
SPEAKER_04: And so I had been developing that just for mountain camp.
9:28
SPEAKER_04: And I said, Oh, I can turn this into something that other people could use.
9:31
SPEAKER_04: And so Wake really helped me kind of get off the ground and create these online courses that now exist through Fence Post.
9:39
SPEAKER_04: And so that's kind of yeah, that's the whole story.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: It's so interesting, Kelly.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: Dave's story reminds me of kind of my own story as a 10-year teacher, and then returning to camp every summer.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: And people ask, like, do you miss teaching?
9:54
SPEAKER_01: And I'm I don't know for sure that this goes for Dave, but my answer, and I know it's an answer consistent with people who are at camp, is like everything I everything I love about teaching, I do at camp without all the trappings of you know, the bureaucracy of other things, etc.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we have our own, but there's just something like we can apply the best parts of what we've been trained to do in our settings.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: And I know for many of us we have teachers who work seasonally for us who often say, Do I have to go back to school?
10:26
SPEAKER_01: Like, why can't it, why can't camp be like what I do the rest of the year?
10:30
SPEAKER_01: Dave, I'm sure you can relate to that or hear that story as well because it's so true.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: And it's nice that we can land in a place like camp because so many of our settings are just, you know, allow us to apply a lot of the good stuff we can offer in this magical place that just the magic doesn't just happen, but we make it happen.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: But it's it's kind of true.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate your story for sure.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: It's it's great.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: And uh so cool you got to go back to your camp.
10:57
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, I was really, really lucky in that way, and it's been great.
11:01
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I totally agree uh about camp being the place where all of this stuff that I used to do is still happening, and in you know, in so many ways, like the social and emotional learning, that like the real meaningful growth the kids are having having at camp, I feel like it happens better at camp than it does at school.
11:19
SPEAKER_04: And so when I'm in the school setting and I'm trying to help kids, you know, build these skills that are not academic, and we've got, you know, an hour a week, it's like this is not where this happens best.
11:31
SPEAKER_04: And I admire everybody who's who's working on that and pushing that forward, certainly, because it it's hard.
11:36
SPEAKER_04: But then you come to camp and you're like, oh my gosh, the entire environment can be set up for this like flourishing and this growth and this learning in ways that are also like really creative and fun and imaginative and you know, outside of kind of the systems thing you were talking about, which can be so hard.
11:54
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I think I think it's been perfect.
11:57
SPEAKER_04: I've been very lucky.
11:59
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm lucky to have you.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: All right, Dave, are you ready to educate all of us and Howie and all your incredible things that you have to give to the camp world?
12:13
SPEAKER_00: Are you ready for this?
12:14
SPEAKER_04: I'd love to try.
12:15
SPEAKER_04: I'm here to I'm here to try.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, we're gonna really frame this a lot on a session that you did at ACA recently because I think it piqued a lot of people's attention.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: And especially for Howie and I leading into our next staff season and training, staff feedback is just it's a big thing.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: It's a big, big thing.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: So talk to us just initially like what is the challenge in giving staff feedback right now as a camp professional?
12:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
12:48
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
12:49
SPEAKER_04: So I think for so many directors, the challenge for giving staff feedback is the way that they tend to receive it.
12:58
SPEAKER_04: And I think for a lot of people, especially in this last five years that things have kind of been so rough since COVID, like we see this higher level of kind of fragility in our staff, like a lower ability to really hear feedback and be able to take that on, especially if it's critical feedback, right?
13:18
SPEAKER_04: Or or it sounds like criticism, to really internalize that and use that to do better.
13:24
SPEAKER_04: And so the session that I did at ACA on coaching staff came almost entirely from this book by David Yeager called 10 to 25, The Science of Motivating Young People.
13:37
SPEAKER_04: And and there's, I think, so much in this book for camp directors, not just around coaching staff, but really around all kind of adolescents.
13:46
SPEAKER_04: That's really what the book is about, is about adolescents, so you know, older campers and younger staff.
13:52
SPEAKER_04: And the way that David Yeager frames it in his book is he's saying, this is he calls it the mentor's dilemma, which is like, how do you give corrective feedback to young people without them feeling attacked?
14:05
SPEAKER_04: And what I think there's really like a paradigm shift in this book, talking about what happens there, where he's saying, you know, when mentors are giving feedback, they're thinking in their minds, this is really helpful for you.
14:19
SPEAKER_04: Like, my I'm actually going out of my way to give you useful information to help you be better at something that matters to you, something you care about.
14:30
SPEAKER_04: But that's not the way that adolescents hear feedback.
14:35
SPEAKER_04: And the reason he says is because the book's called 10 to 25, that's like the general range of age for the development, you know, the adolescent stage of development.
14:45
SPEAKER_04: During that time, all of us have a higher level of testosterone in our brains.
14:52
SPEAKER_04: And the effect of that is that it makes us hypersensitive to status and respect.
14:58
SPEAKER_04: And so what's happening is that because that's a top priority for people in that age range, when you give them feedback, they're not listening to the content of the feedback thinking, oh, this is here to make me better.
15:11
SPEAKER_04: They're thinking, oh gosh, does this person who has power over my life, my this supervisor, this person who's higher up, think that I'm competent?
15:20
SPEAKER_04: And essentially they're fragile because that feedback is coming at them in this way that's actually lowering their status or their respect or kind of telling them that they're just they're not good enough.
15:34
SPEAKER_04: And so for me, that was a real light bulb because I was realizing, oh, okay, like there's a this disconnect between the people who are delivering the feedback and the people who are receiving it.
15:46
SPEAKER_04: And there's a real opportunity here, and he goes over a bunch of stuff in the book about changing small ways about how you deliver that feedback that makes it much more likely that staff are not gonna get defensive or overwhelmed or fragile in response that they're gonna think, oh, this actually really is here for me to get better.
16:09
SPEAKER_04: Let me like accept it and and and use it.
16:12
unknown: Yeah.
16:12
SPEAKER_04: And I can keep, do you want me to kind of keep going into that?
16:15
SPEAKER_01: Well, I I think that for me, and and and I'm so glad you're referencing the book because I I've become familiar with it as well over the last year or two.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: And it it is really framing the realities of dealing with this era of staff and and just young people in general in such a good way.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: I was curious, Dave, like what's your take of like obviously COVID had an impact on the difference, you know, like like some of us, like the three of us, who have seen a different era of staff where uh maybe we didn't have to think about this, or did staff feel this way or react this way, like pre-COVID?
16:52
SPEAKER_01: Like, was there is this because of a shift of you know, in parenting with these these this generation was brought up in a different way?
16:59
SPEAKER_01: So therefore we need to respond to that.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we could just briefly just you know, your take as someone who's a social worker and has seen kit young people over the years, you know, before we get into maybe some of the specifics, the causation of the the, you know, for sure COVID, but you talked about fragility.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: Was is the fragility attributed to many reasons?
17:24
SPEAKER_01: Is one of them parenting?
17:26
SPEAKER_01: Is it one of them the way they grew up in their sports environments?
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Was it, you know, and we talked so much about the impact of social media and and what that may play.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm just curious about maybe you can comment on a lot of what has gotten us to this place.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: And then I'd love to hear obviously, you know, your take on how to address it.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
17:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
17:44
SPEAKER_04: And in in doing so, I want to start with like kind of this caveat, which is I think these questions, they're so fascinating, we want to answer them.
17:52
SPEAKER_04: And also, in a way, they're they're kind of a trap because in talking about these broader like trends of why, right, kids are the way they are these days, when you're actually dealing with an individual, right?
18:06
SPEAKER_04: When we're at camp and we're working with somebody in front of us, all of these things that may be true in terms of trends and data, it doesn't really matter.
18:15
SPEAKER_04: You can't ever assume that this person is acting this way because of this thing, right?
18:21
SPEAKER_04: It's like, and so as directors, we still have to recognize like we're we're working with the person in front of us, and there's a million different factors that could be contributing to why they are acting the way they're acting right now.
18:33
SPEAKER_04: With that being said, you know, I took in in the session, I took a lot from Jonathan Heights' Anxious Generation book.
18:40
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, I think that COVID was essentially this universal stressor that made everybody's life more difficult, that removed a lot of the practice around social skills that kids really, really need, and has definitely been this big problem.
18:59
SPEAKER_04: And also, I think tracking the data, Jonathan Haidt would say this start started much earlier, right?
19:04
SPEAKER_04: And this is the work of Gene Twenge and and people saying it's really, there really does seem to be a connection, although sometimes they'll, I think, argue about correlation versus causation and where that discussion is in its in its evolution between like the smartphones and the social media and all that.
19:24
SPEAKER_04: And part of that they say is parenting practices, where parents are essentially over-protecting kids in the real world and reducing their ability to be independent and have experiences that help teach them that they're capable and confident, which lowers anxiety, and underprotecting in the digital world, which is this place where you know our staff now have spent much, much larger amount of time in their childhood online, on screens, which reduces their social skill practice, which changes the way that they communicate.
19:59
SPEAKER_04: And also, I think what's interesting with as this ties into David Yeager's piece about adolescents really craving social status and respect, is that the social media really has changed the way in which adolescents earn or lose social status and respect from what the way we grew up, where you run out into the world and you play with people and you make mistakes and they might tease you, but they forget about it five minutes later, and things are much more face-to-face in real life versus things online where you have this power to create and control the way that people perceive you.
20:40
SPEAKER_04: And if you make a mistake online, maybe it lives forever.
20:44
SPEAKER_04: And it's, you know, there's just it's put this pressure on kids and created an environment that's just not conducive, I think, to the healthiest ways of learning how to interact with each other and how to be resilient in the face of challenge.
21:02
SPEAKER_04: And that's what I think we're seeing at camp is staff who are generally maybe just less resilient in the face of a challenge.
21:11
SPEAKER_04: And that's what we want to, I think, try to solve.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: So kind of what I hear you saying, Dave, is taking all of those factors into consideration and understanding how they are impacting kids and staff in this generation, but regardless of all of that, it's still for us coming into that conversation, like meeting that kid where they're at, because we don't know how much that is or isn't impacting them.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of just like when we're doing this, when we're working with youth, it's meeting them where they're at and using some of this research from David Yeager to navigate that in the best way possible based on what we know about like brain science and and where they're at.
21:58
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I think one of the interesting ways that people can hear this kind of like explanation of why it is that kids may be not necessarily but maybe more fragile these days, is that a some people hear like that and they hear an excuse and they say, Oh, well, you're just trying to make excuses for the fact that they're not as good as they need to be.
22:20
SPEAKER_04: And what you're asking for me is just to accommodate everything, is just to basically change all the ways that I do things to make it easier for them.
22:29
SPEAKER_04: And that is not the way that you have to respond, right?
22:32
SPEAKER_04: You can hold both this idea of we have a greater understanding of why it is that kids.
22:38
SPEAKER_04: You know, that young people these days are struggling more than they might have been 20 or 30 years ago.
22:44
SPEAKER_04: And it's still my responsibility to hold a very high standard for their performance at camp, for the expectations around, you know, how they do their job.
22:55
SPEAKER_04: And in fact, one of the things that David Yeager talks about in this mentoring piece is that having high standards is actually super important because by having and communicating high standards to the people who work for you, you are transmitting to them a level of respect.
23:15
SPEAKER_04: You're saying, here at our camp, we do things really well.
23:19
SPEAKER_04: And you're here because I chose you, because I could tell that you can do this.
23:25
SPEAKER_04: And maybe you're not doing it yet at the level we want, but just the fact that I have chosen you to be here, it's like by having those high standards, I am actually giving you the social status and respect that you crave.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and in communicating that, and I would imagine just demonstrating that I'm going to help you along the way.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm here on that journey with you, right?
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Because it's this idea of having those expectations, but leaving them to their own devices isn't what is called for here.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: It's you have to match the high expectations with, I would say, kind of the kind of level of support that tells them that, you know, you want them to succeed and you're going to help them succeed.
24:15
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
24:16
SPEAKER_04: And Jaeger has this kind of quadrant of the two factors of standards and support, right?
24:22
SPEAKER_04: Both high and low, and shows that having high standards without high support is actually really hard.
24:28
SPEAKER_04: It doesn't present like psychological safety.
24:32
SPEAKER_04: And he gives, you know, these great stories or examples of like professors who are saying, like, you know, 80% of you are gonna fail this course, and you better just come and be amazing.
24:42
SPEAKER_04: And how maybe a few people will succeed through that, but most people won't because they don't actually feel like there's any level of support that's being provided to help them meet those high standards.
24:53
SPEAKER_04: So, in order to truly mentor people, you have to communicate the high standards and then you have to authentically provide that high support.
25:01
SPEAKER_04: And I think that's that's where the rubber hits the road for a lot of camps, because providing a high level of support takes resources, right?
25:10
SPEAKER_04: You have to, you have to have staff, you have to have money to hire staff to provide support.
25:16
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, all of us have experienced that, you know, that running around wildly at camp trying to support everybody and how that's kind of a recipe for burnout for ourselves.
25:27
SPEAKER_04: And so building in a system to your program that provides high levels of support, you know, if that's your goal, you really you have to be thoughtful about doing it.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: I like that we're talking about this piece about giving, helping staff receive it.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: Because I don't know about the two of you, but I think that's just the giving feedback is has changed as a leader.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: I just think in the world in the past how many years?
25:57
SPEAKER_00: Like as a Gen Xer, it was like no news is good news, right?
26:00
SPEAKER_00: And now that's different as a leader.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: If you know, if you're being a high-level impactful leader, you are giving feedback, you are talking with your staff.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: It's not just a do this, it's a here's why.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: It's bringing them into it.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: So I think that there's just much more of an awareness and a lot of tools for leaders as to why, like we understand that, but it's also now the how or how to help staff receive that.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: Like we know we should be doing that, but how can we actually help them to receive it versus just give, give, give, and then it doesn't land as you're saying?
26:33
SPEAKER_00: All they're thinking about, like, oh, they don't think I'm capable.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: Like, how can we help that land in a positive and impactful way?
26:39
SPEAKER_00: Just instead of just doing it, saying we're doing it.
26:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
26:42
SPEAKER_04: And so David Yeager's kind of specific tool around actually providing the feedback that I think, you know, is a really tangible thing that you can you can use right away, is this idea of transparency statements.
26:57
SPEAKER_04: So he gives these examples of how, you know, if the problem is that young staff are really thinking when you're giving feedback, you just don't think I'm competent, I'm no good, and they're not listening to the content.
27:10
SPEAKER_04: The way to help to change that is to when you give the the trans the sorry the feedback, you start by saying, Hey, you make some statement that confirms that you have high expectations and that you already believe them to be competent, right?
27:26
SPEAKER_04: Hey, like we do things at a really high level here, and I've seen some amazing work from you so far.
27:32
SPEAKER_04: I know that you're capable of being one of our best staff, and I'd like to give you some feedback to help you get better.
27:40
SPEAKER_04: And so the idea is you're confirming that you think they're competent, and you are telling them why you're giving them feedback ahead of time, right?
27:49
SPEAKER_04: The reason I'm giving you this feedback is so that you can get better.
27:52
SPEAKER_04: Then you deliver the feedback.
27:54
SPEAKER_04: And the other piece he mentions that's really important is that you have to use that transparency statement when you're giving the feedback.
28:01
SPEAKER_04: You can't just say it like it's staff training and say, hey, we're gonna give you feedback throughout the summer.
28:06
SPEAKER_04: The reason we're giving you feedback is this.
28:08
SPEAKER_04: Also, we already think you're competent, right?
28:11
SPEAKER_04: And then two weeks later, you come up and you don't give the transparency statement and you launch into the feedback.
28:16
SPEAKER_04: That's not gonna work because that person in that moment is not probably not carried that over.
28:22
SPEAKER_04: They need to be told right before that feedback happens that, like, don't worry, I believe in you, and also here's some information so that I think you can get even better.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah, I think this last part that we were discussing here is intriguing to me because this is where we can possibly, or in your work with, you know, using David Yeager's work as in the camp context.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: Dave, let's jump into that.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: Like it's staff training week, and you're now talking about the role that feedback plays in the life of you as a staff member.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm sure that with it with what you're describing, there are many ways we can present high expectations and this high support model.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: But like most things at pre-camp, we can't just leave it at pre-camp.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: We have to be consistent with how we deliver it, whether it's on our daily interactions with our staff, with minor, you know, interactions we have with our staff or that we've assigned our staff to give that feedback.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: And then when we're actually sitting across from them at a picnic table, and just like you said, you have to have that opening line about why we're doing this and how you have to probably reference what you did at staff training to get them back on board to maybe alleviate some of the defensiveness or this status and respect stuff that may be so natural for them to have.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: Is I think that's what you're kind of like, I just curious about your thoughts around how to make it the full package as a as you plan staff training.
29:53
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's a great question.
29:55
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I I think that right, there needs to be some parts of staff training where you explain, right, you're kind of hopefully you're feeding in the high expectations throughout, like, right?
30:05
SPEAKER_04: This is the why behind what we're doing.
30:07
SPEAKER_04: And the how of how we're actually going to achieve these high standards as a team is by giving lots of feedback because we don't expect anybody here to know how to do this perfectly in its camp.
30:18
SPEAKER_04: Like even the people who have been here for 20 and 30 years are making mistakes daily, right?
30:23
SPEAKER_04: So there's another part of that psychological safety, I think, that comes from that idea of like, this is a safe place to fail, we pick each other up, that kind of vibe.
30:33
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, I'd like to encourage that that's at all levels, right?
30:37
SPEAKER_04: If you just tell people this is a safe place to fail, but then as a leader, you never demonstrate any like taking responsibility or being accountable for like the times that you make mistakes, then you're not really role modeling that.
30:50
SPEAKER_04: And then you're telling your staff, hey, you need to be great role models for your kids.
30:53
SPEAKER_04: You're like, well, are you are you actually living that?
30:56
SPEAKER_04: Because when you do, that's I think that's really where you get the buy-in.
31:00
SPEAKER_04: And then I think you know, most camps that do that kind of feedback really well are doing it like kind of continuously, like as opposed to one or two touch points a summer, like more of an intensive situation where we're sitting down with a piece of paper, like, you know, that's kind of anxiety provoking.
31:23
SPEAKER_04: It's kind of tough.
31:24
SPEAKER_04: And and then you have these situations where somebody's been doing something mildly wrong for four weeks before you sit down and tell them, and they're like, Why didn't you tell me four weeks ago?
31:33
SPEAKER_04: And so part of that high support rate can be there's gonna be a touch point for you at least once a week, once every two weeks, from somebody at least a notch or two above you in this org chart who's gonna be checking in and is gonna always have a moment to say, I'm checking in with you.
31:52
SPEAKER_04: How are you doing?
31:53
SPEAKER_04: You know, are your needs being met?
31:55
SPEAKER_04: How is this experience for you?
31:57
SPEAKER_04: And I've got a piece of information that's gonna help you get it even better.
32:01
SPEAKER_04: Like, can I give this to you?
32:03
SPEAKER_04: And and trying to do that in a more ongoing way at a lower, more casual level, I think it tends to be more successful than the other way.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: I like so many things that you just said.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: I liked that you said it has to be more than just two weeks in midsummer and then end of rap.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: Like I love that.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: So, how can we shift our system to be more frequent?
32:29
SPEAKER_00: And then I also like what you said is by not having these like looming, you know, two week, five week, seven-week check-ins, by doing it more continually, it's less anxiety provoking and hopefully then will align more or land in a way that's more aligned with, you know, with their brain chemistry to be like, okay, like this is my weekly check-in, and I'm anticipating this and just more open to hearing what you have to say, in addition to checking in and caring about them as a person.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: I think that's the big biggest thing is they need to know that you care about them as a person.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: So it has to be, how are you?
33:08
SPEAKER_00: How are things?
33:09
SPEAKER_00: Like, Andy, shout out to Andy from Tumbleweed.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: He has like a weekly check-in system that we've kind of adopted, but that's really what it is.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, how are you?
33:17
SPEAKER_00: How are things going?
33:18
SPEAKER_00: What's going well?
33:19
SPEAKER_00: What's hard?
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, talk to me about what's hard so we can problem solve.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: And then I like that you added, all right, great.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: Here's also some additional feedback.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: So to be able to help you to, you know, meet that high standard of that bar.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: So I like that you're adding that in at that time in that way.
33:35
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33:39
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34:30
SPEAKER_01: I also think, Kelly, that when you can front load for your staff what we mean by feedback, right?
34:39
SPEAKER_01: Because we're talking about casual, we're talking about formal, we're talking about walking from a supervisor walking from one activity to the other.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: Like that's feedback, positive and you know, constructive.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: And so the word feedback is often associated with I'm in trouble, or I am, you know, I'm getting a big lecture of what I'm doing wrong.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: But if you can frame that feedback is just a part of the culture of what we do.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: And and the people in middle management, and I guess Dave, this is where I want to go a little bit with this too, is have you thought about, you know, at Mountain Camp, you know, the degree to which you're training your middle managers, your supervisors of staff, of all being kind of consistent with this philosophy and making sure that we're all delivering it in a similar fashion, because, you know, regardless of the size of your camp, if if our if our camps are espousing this commitment to mentorship and high expectations and high support, you know, I know for us, like I'd love to, I'd love to be assured that everyone is at least attempting to deliver it in the same manner using their own personal styles.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: But if I have a segment of my staff who's not getting it, although we said this is what we do, we just need our staff supervisors all to be part of this.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: Can you speak to a little bit about how you thought of getting, you know, your unit heads or division leaders or the I would imagine the people delivering this stuff, you know, kind of trained on it or, you know, bought into this is our approach.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can speak to that a little bit.
36:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
36:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
36:17
SPEAKER_04: Well, I'm gonna shout out here to Michael Branwein and his his CDOS structure for giving feedback.
36:23
SPEAKER_04: And we've sent our middle, you know, our mid-level people in the past to his trainings.
36:30
SPEAKER_04: I think they're doing, they do a virtual training in May.
36:32
SPEAKER_04: I think it might be through ACA Illinois, but that we've had great success with people who go through that and really get excited about it and then bring it to camp and kind of teach it to their peers and say, like, this is, you know, this is what we're gonna be doing this summer, and we need to be aligned with it.
36:49
SPEAKER_04: But I also would even just say, Howie, like that is a struggle.
36:53
SPEAKER_04: Like summer to summer, not everybody right, is is at the same level.
36:58
SPEAKER_04: And you'll get a couple of mid-level people who are so bought in and figure out how to give feedback in a good way.
37:04
SPEAKER_04: And then you'll have other people that really struggle.
37:07
SPEAKER_04: It is a hard skill, right?
37:10
SPEAKER_04: It really is tough to sit there with somebody face to face and tell them that they're not doing something well enough and you need them to change.
37:18
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, I think it's important for everybody to hear, like, yeah, that's hard for everybody, and it's not an easy thing to do.
37:25
SPEAKER_04: And sometimes you get people who, you know, will go through the training or like look at you in the eye and be like, yeah, I know how to do this, and then they just won't do it that well, you know, and there's a lot of factors involved.
37:36
SPEAKER_04: It's not just, you know, the defensiveness or the fragility of the person receiving it.
37:41
SPEAKER_04: Sometimes it's that kind of emotional intelligence or tact of the person delivering it.
37:46
SPEAKER_04: And then you've got all the experiential parts, right?
37:48
SPEAKER_04: Where you're like, oh, well, two weeks ago, that those two people did feedback really well.
37:54
SPEAKER_04: But since then, there's been some drama in staff, and now those people aren't getting along because of something that happened on a day off.
38:00
SPEAKER_04: And you're like, how am I like, how is this so hard?
38:03
SPEAKER_04: You know, but it's that complex drama at camp.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: Drama at camp.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: Does that happen?
38:08
SPEAKER_01: Kelly?
38:08
SPEAKER_00: Never, never, never, never, never.
38:11
SPEAKER_01: So true.
38:11
SPEAKER_01: It's so true, Dave.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: Like that that has to be said that that you know, even over the course of a summer, it it can turn on its head too, that kind of stuff.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: But I think your your point is important, Howie B, and it's that that struggle as a leader is like what Dave mentioned, you can't do this alone, and you need a lot of support to do this and people doing it.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: But I think it's it's such an indicator of trust to be able to teach others to do this, knowing like at whatever level you're at, you're probably pretty good at it, or you've had a lot of experience.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: So, in an ideal world, I'm just thinking myself, I love to be the person that sat down with everybody and did the feedback, right?
38:52
SPEAKER_00: Because I've been doing it for so long and screwed it up a lot.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: So that's how I have improved.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: But it really is such a level of trust to train your other people to do it.
39:00
SPEAKER_00: And you don't know how great they're gonna be at it or how they're gonna say, or are they gonna get defensive, or is their face gonna tell too much?
39:07
SPEAKER_00: It's just it's such a huge thing of trust to hope that your team is going to do a great job.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: But like you said, how it can't be just cross your fingers, it has to be really intentional setting them up for success.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: So I was even thinking about like giving this book 10 to 25 to my leadership team before our retreat to be like, all right, let's all read this and get at least on the same page.
39:30
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's also good, you know.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: I what some of one of the things that we have found successful to Dave's point of the varying degrees of comfort with the skill of executing this mentor approach and the feedback, and is we just we've we we implement a lot of role modeling or play playing out the conversation, right?
39:53
SPEAKER_01: We buddy up an experienced unit supervisor with a new person.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: And early in the summer, when one of these conversations has to happen, we have the new person play out what the the opening sentence will be in their conversation with Dave, who I have to give some feedback to.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: So the high expectations, high support extends to the people that we're asking to deliver this as much as it is to the people they're delivering it to.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: Because if we say to Dave Brown, we need you to deliver on this mentor approach, the high expectation.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: I've got to be so invested as a camp director or senior management to say, I got you every step of the way as well.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna hold you to a standard and I'm there for you when you implement this.
40:42
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, at every level of the org chart, Dave, I would imagine that high expectations, high support will have its own application or definition as well.
40:53
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
40:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:54
SPEAKER_04: Well, and it's one of the things I love most about camp is that the dynamics that are often happening at one level need to happen at all the levels, right?
41:02
SPEAKER_04: It's like it's the same with the growth.
41:03
SPEAKER_04: Like we're here to help kids grow and yet look at our staff grow.
41:06
SPEAKER_04: And yet, if we're doing it well, we're growing as leaders ourselves every day, right?
41:11
SPEAKER_04: And that's that's what like convinces me that this work is like super meaningful and organic because it works in that way.
41:17
SPEAKER_04: And you're just like, oh my gosh, this this is happening at every level.
41:20
SPEAKER_04: I will let me also make this other point about like when we were talking about kind of like past generations, right?
41:26
SPEAKER_04: Where maybe the expectation was like, why do I have to hold everybody's hand?
41:31
SPEAKER_04: Why do I have to spend so much time connecting with everybody?
41:34
SPEAKER_04: Can't everybody just do their jobs?
41:36
SPEAKER_04: And I totally understand that perspective because it is, I think it does feel like a lot more emotional work these days to be a leader in this way.
41:46
SPEAKER_04: But I want to try to like also put forth that like it has benefits beyond just the effect that you're having on that staff member right now or on the problem that you're solving in the moment, which is that the connectedness, the relationships that people develop through the job, make them better, not only at the job, but it's also a protective factor.
42:11
SPEAKER_04: Like one of the top or the top factor that leads to resilience to for all of us to be able to overcome obstacles is having caring, connected relationships in our lives.
42:22
SPEAKER_04: And so it's not just about that particular problem, it's also about the fact that when you're supporting people and they're supporting people and everybody is feeling connected and supported and cared about, that is making like a more loving environment.
42:38
SPEAKER_04: It's making it's role modeling, positive social interactions and connections for the kids.
42:44
SPEAKER_04: It's just like there's so many benefits to that, not just the solving of that individual problem in that moment.
42:51
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: I I also like can so relate.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: I know you too can have it's such emotional work.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: I think there had just been the increase in emotional work and stamina for all of us is definitely increased.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: But I totally agree, Dave.
43:07
SPEAKER_00: It is so worth it because it just does transcend outside of camp more than ever.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: And and Kelly, if I could just add too, you know, coming off, as I mentioned earlier as we started the episode about our recent milestone, it was so flattering to hear so many people who are in their professional lives now.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: Dave, like, you know, the impact of when we we show we have high expectations and high support.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: And our culture at our camps is about this.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, so many people will talk about this was the work environment that set me on my way to, you know, I could compare what I do now to the way that I was treated as an 18, 19, 20-year-old, because in some cases they'll never experience that ever in other jobs, too.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: And if we as camps who are often providing the very first work experience for young people, and we can commit that there is a world where, you know, it's not just do as do what I ask, don't ask me why.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: And we have a culture where we implement all the things that you've been talking about and we've been sharing, they're gonna look back on the work that they've done with us as some as a highlight of getting them on their way to understanding what it really could look like to be in a supportive and work environment where there isn't any lessening of accountability.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day, you you started off with the fact that it doesn't mean we have to sacrifice keeping.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: People accountable and that we have high expectations.
44:41
SPEAKER_01: But that connectedness, that care and concern just has such a ripple effect to their own personal development down the road when they become supervisors in another environment.
44:52
SPEAKER_01: And I I just think that we can't lose sight of the fact that while some of us just think of surviving the eight weeks, let's not lose sight of the fact that for our young staff, we are we are we are teaching them lessons on how to relate to people in general.
45:07
SPEAKER_01: This will this will this will allow them to thrive in their personal relationships, then as parents, as teammates, you know, heading up a uh a volunteer group.
45:16
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I I just feel you know, all of this gets me.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm very invested in this topic.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: It's been a big part of my own professional life.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: And to hear you kind of capitalizing on it through the work of the book is so cool.
45:29
SPEAKER_01: So I thought I would just add that, and maybe if either one of you had comments about that, but that's sort of what I'm feeling in the moment.
45:36
SPEAKER_00: Here, here.
45:36
SPEAKER_00: That's all I have to say.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's why that's why we do it.
45:40
SPEAKER_00: Ditto.
45:40
SPEAKER_01: I just yeah.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: I did if it meant pointing out the obvious fair, but I just needed to say it out loud.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: It's a good reminder, Howie.
45:47
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a really great reminder.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: Dave, I want to before we I do want to talk at the as we wrap about like thinking about this with campers and not just with staff, but I want to make sure, are there any other tools that you've taken from David Yeager's book that you want to talk about?
46:05
SPEAKER_00: I just want to make sure we don't like miss any of the great tools you have.
46:09
SPEAKER_00: So I think you had some great the tool about kind of how to give that, that transparency statement.
46:14
SPEAKER_00: So is there any other things you want to make sure that our listeners hear as far as tools that you've taken from that book that you think could be helpful for them in working with staff this summer?
46:23
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
46:24
SPEAKER_04: So let me start, let me do one tool, another from the book.
46:27
SPEAKER_04: And then also, I I'm realizing we've talked a lot about like high support and just the idea of providing it, but haven't talked a lot about like the mechanics of like, well, what is that actually, what can that look like?
46:39
SPEAKER_04: And so I could speak a little bit to that too.
46:41
SPEAKER_02: That'd be great.
46:42
SPEAKER_04: One of the tools that I thought was so awesome in the book was actually a tool that he was bringing in from another researcher named Greg Walton, and it's called belonging stories.
46:52
SPEAKER_04: And so the idea was they were having this high level of dropout in their freshman college kind of cohort.
47:00
SPEAKER_04: And there's so much parallel there, right, between our staff, same age, coming to a new place, an immersive culture, away from home, a lot of stress, hard work, right, high expectations.
47:13
SPEAKER_04: And they're like, how do we get people to stop quitting or leaving early?
47:17
SPEAKER_04: Which I think in the camp industry can be something we all would like to see less of.
47:21
SPEAKER_04: And they had this amazing intervention where they had seniors who had struggled in their own freshman year come and tell a short story about their journey.
47:31
SPEAKER_04: And they studied these stories and they studied the freshmen who listened to them, and they found that there was actually a really impressive like improvement among freshmen who heard stories that had four elements.
47:43
SPEAKER_04: So the four elements were struggle is normal, right?
47:47
SPEAKER_04: It's natural to come into this situation and struggle to especially to like feel a sense of belonging.
47:53
SPEAKER_04: Number two, there are oh gosh.
47:57
SPEAKER_04: Number two was there are specific things.
48:01
SPEAKER_04: Oh, change is possible, right?
48:03
SPEAKER_04: It's hard now, but change is possible.
48:05
SPEAKER_04: Three is there are specific action steps that you have to take to make it better.
48:10
SPEAKER_04: You will have to change something, adapt, or do something to help like feel more at home or more belonging here.
48:18
SPEAKER_04: And four, that once you start doing even small action steps, it will snowball and things will actually get better quicker than you expect.
48:26
SPEAKER_04: And I think that this is such a translatable little nugget to camp where you have a returner who had a hard time early on in their first year just tell this story to staff of like, man, when I came to camp my first year, this was the struggle I had.
48:42
SPEAKER_04: I knew the change was possible.
48:44
SPEAKER_04: This is what I did to get better, and then things got so much better.
48:47
SPEAKER_04: And this idea that that using that one intervention might make a difference in terms of people actually quitting earlier or ducking out of camp because they can't handle it.
48:56
SPEAKER_04: So that's that's my tool.
48:59
SPEAKER_00: So do you see that as like encouraging your staff to share that when it naturally comes up?
49:05
SPEAKER_00: Or are you thinking like intentionally during staff training, you create like some kind of exercise or activity where people share a belonging story like this?
49:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's more what I'm thinking.
49:18
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
49:18
SPEAKER_04: And I already do something in staff training where I have returners and also staff who were campers tell stories about their experience at camp right at the beginning of staff training as kind of like a kind of anchoring our why, like making sure that everybody understands this is important, not because the director says it's important, but because we have real stories of people who were kids here, real stories of people who were staff here, and how this place changed their lives.
49:45
SPEAKER_04: And I think, you know, hearing that authentically from each other is a great way to get staff bought in on, like, oh gosh, like I don't really know what I'm getting into, but I guess it's real and I guess it's meaningful.
49:56
SPEAKER_04: And I think adding on like a even just one story to that group of like, why are we doing this?
50:01
SPEAKER_04: Of like, hey, I just want to talk a little bit about like how this job is hard and how I struggled and how I got through it could be could be powerful.
50:09
SPEAKER_02: For sure.
50:11
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
50:11
SPEAKER_00: I like all those four key aspects, are some great.
50:16
SPEAKER_01: And we'll and we'll put and we'll put some of the resources that Dave is talking about into the show notes as well.
50:23
SPEAKER_01: So people can maybe not only the book, but there's some other things we've spoken about, I think would be just a reference to the belonging stories is such a it sounds like it's such a powerful way to get everyone on the same page and understanding what this could be for them because it's been like that for others, which is wonderful.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: Well, that mechan those mechanical tools are what people also is so helpful right now to people.
50:49
SPEAKER_00: Any other Wednesday that you wanted to mention, your mechanical tools for us?
50:53
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, well, I'll talk about like just this idea of you know, how do you support people who are struggling, right?
51:00
SPEAKER_04: And like do besides just entering into that conversation and figuring it out, kind of giving the supporters a little more structure around how we're gonna go about supporting staff at camp.
51:12
SPEAKER_04: And the tool that I like to use, I just call the balance scale.
51:16
SPEAKER_04: I say kind of like picture your own well-being here at camp as a balance scale.
51:21
SPEAKER_04: And there's just two sides.
51:23
SPEAKER_04: One side is stressors, it's anything that's weighing you down, and that could be personal, it could be environmental, right?
51:30
SPEAKER_04: So it's everything from this thing that's happening here at camp, you know, this camper that's tough to this situation at home that's hard to like another cloudy day, right?
51:40
SPEAKER_04: Even the weather can bring us down.
51:42
SPEAKER_04: It's all personal, but anything that's weighing you down is a stressor.
51:46
SPEAKER_04: On the other side of the balance scale are coping mechanisms.
51:49
SPEAKER_04: And those are the things that we do to offset the stressors in our lives and kind of regulate ourselves and be able to go and function and be be about our day.
51:58
SPEAKER_04: Now, there are a lot of what I call unhealthy coping mechanisms, which are important to recognize, but we don't want to push them on people, right?
52:05
SPEAKER_04: Like things just like denial and avoidance and you know, coping with like compulsive or impulsive behavior like phone use and gossip and buying things and all that.
52:16
SPEAKER_04: But on the healthy side of the coping mechanisms are all these things that actually are much more available at camp than they usually are in other in other parts of people's lives, at school or at home, right?
52:29
SPEAKER_04: You've got, first of all, like getting good sleep, nutrition and hydration, social connections, fun hobbies, being outdoors, getting natural light, natural sunshine, exercising, connecting to like the meaning of what you're doing, which is another one at camp that I think is like we have this advantage over so many other professions where everyday people can connect to like why the work they're doing is important and meaningful.
52:59
SPEAKER_04: And there are a number of other ones, but but in sitting down with that staff member who's struggling in this moment, right?
53:06
SPEAKER_04: This idea is you're not gonna just like fix them or give them something that's gonna make them better.
53:12
SPEAKER_04: You're gonna assist them, you're gonna sit next to them and say, okay, let's look at this balance scale.
53:17
SPEAKER_04: What's weighing you down?
53:19
SPEAKER_04: What are you using to pick you up?
53:20
SPEAKER_04: And how do we make adjustments?
53:22
SPEAKER_04: Because there are some stressors that you have no control over, and we're just gonna have to let those be what they are.
53:27
SPEAKER_04: But there probably are some stressors that we can affect, that we can lessen in some way.
53:32
SPEAKER_04: And how do we do that?
53:33
SPEAKER_04: And then what are the coping mechanisms, especially the ones that work for you as an individual, because different people need different things.
53:40
SPEAKER_04: Maybe you're a napper, maybe you're not.
53:42
SPEAKER_04: But where are the things that you're doing at camp to really take care of yourself and bring your well-being back up?
53:48
SPEAKER_04: And then you have people kind of do their own assessment and make a plan of like, okay, here's how I'm gonna reduce some stressors, here's how I'm gonna increase coping mechanisms.
53:57
SPEAKER_04: And that's just a very tangible way to help people make real changes to the way that they're going about their lives at camp.
54:06
SPEAKER_04: That will hopefully have a positive effect for them.
54:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the balance scale meta analogy that that I could see that resonating with so many people, just the way that could be presented in in such a powerful way.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: I love, I really, really love that.
54:23
SPEAKER_01: Kelly, so much good stuff.
54:25
SPEAKER_01: Right?
54:26
SPEAKER_00: That's Dave, that's Dave Brown for you.
54:28
SPEAKER_01: Dave Brown.
54:29
SPEAKER_01: Love that.
54:30
SPEAKER_01: I thought maybe we would just quickly, you know, we talked a lot about staff, but Dave, the caveat is quickly, and I and I don't I I know I'm conscious of time here, but a lot of what we're talking about of high expectations, support, mentorship.
54:45
SPEAKER_01: Maybe just how have you found or will will be thinking about how you can translate that in the work we do specifically with campers too.
54:54
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we could just talk a little bit about that, you know, affecting you know, the experience of our campers using, you know, Jaeger.
55:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously we have 10 to 14 year olds at camp who are gonna get feedback on their making bad choices.
55:07
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I hearken back to my own Michael Branwe examples of the key system, pick a key, and all the good stuff about behavior management.
55:16
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, have any any quick thoughts around utilizing this and the way we give feedback to our campers?
55:22
SPEAKER_01: Does it change much?
55:24
SPEAKER_01: We probably have to give some tools to our frontline staff about utilizing some of this in some way, shape, or form.
55:31
SPEAKER_01: Any immediate thoughts on how we might do that or have you given any thought to that?
55:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a little bit different because I don't can I don't think of it as giving feedback right in the same way because the mission isn't to like be good at this job.
55:45
SPEAKER_04: But the way that I would translate that is that when you're talking about, you know, counselors working with kids, and for a lot of that it's like limit setting or expectations, these kind of things.
55:59
SPEAKER_04: The foundation I think of that is the quality of the relationship.
56:04
SPEAKER_04: I like to just call it the connection because when I use the term relationship, people, you know, think of all kinds of things that don't apply directly to that professional relationship between a counselor and a camper.
56:15
SPEAKER_04: But so the connection between the counselor and the camper is the foundation of so much of the good work that's gonna happen.
56:22
SPEAKER_04: And really making sure that you are training your staff around how do I do that intentionally?
56:28
SPEAKER_04: How do I know that it's not just my goal, but I actually have some tools or techniques for creating these kind of trusting bonds with kids, which the outcome is kids feeling safe and secure at camp, putting themselves in positions then to like choose to push themselves out of their comfort zone, which is usually where the real meaningful growth happens.
56:54
SPEAKER_04: But also just that, like giving feedback to kids, right?
56:57
SPEAKER_04: This thing that you did, I wish that you had done that differently, right?
57:02
SPEAKER_04: That is, you know, is I consider that a withdrawal from the relational bank account.
57:08
SPEAKER_04: I guess I could say just a little bit about that analogy of the relational bank account, which is from a book called Empty the Cup by an educational psychologist named Ernie Mendez.
57:17
SPEAKER_04: And what he says is that you can just see these relationships as bank accounts, where you either have deposits or withdrawals.
57:24
SPEAKER_04: Those are the only two things, and you can't withdraw more than you deposit.
57:28
SPEAKER_04: And withdrawals are anytime you're asking kids to stop doing something fun, you know, you're asking them to do something they maybe don't want to do, you're setting a limit.
57:38
SPEAKER_04: And if you haven't been making deposits into that relationship, then there's no balance there for you to be able to take those withdrawals.
57:46
SPEAKER_04: And so often when staff come forward and say, you know, this camper, oh, they just won't listen, or it's so tough, or like I just can't get them on board, you know, the easiest question to ask back to that counselor is like, where is your relational bank account with that camper?
58:03
SPEAKER_04: And almost always they'll tell you, sometimes they'll get defensive and they'll say, Well, but it's because they don't listen and then they do this and they do this, and you're like, yes, and what kind of depositing are you doing?
58:14
SPEAKER_04: Because some kids simply require more withdrawals than others.
58:18
SPEAKER_04: That's totally okay.
58:20
SPEAKER_04: You're a professional, and your job is if this kid needs more withdrawals, I'm gonna be making more deposits.
58:25
SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna figure out how to connect with this kid better because when that connection is strong, the camper's gonna listen better, they're gonna follow instructions, and just you know, everything becomes more smooth.
58:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, Howie, I think we came up with a next year episode with Dave Brown that is going to be all about how staff can or how camps can intentionally teach their staff to build those connections.
58:50
SPEAKER_00: So practical tools.
58:52
SPEAKER_00: So a year from now, Dave Brown, are you free?
58:54
SPEAKER_04: I am, yes.
58:56
SPEAKER_04: Okay, a year from now, precisely.
58:58
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
58:59
SPEAKER_00: Right.
59:00
SPEAKER_00: So I love it.
59:01
SPEAKER_00: Because literally I want to talk about that, but that's a whole nother podcast.
59:04
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna continue.
59:05
SPEAKER_01: And it here's to say that they have to renew us for a seventh season because of that.
59:09
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's true.
59:10
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
59:12
SPEAKER_00: Producers, please also, yeah, keep please keep supporting our friendship captivities because that's what this is really all about supporting our our time to see each other.
59:20
SPEAKER_04: It's coming, it all comes back to the relationships.
59:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it does.
59:24
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
59:25
SPEAKER_04: Tie the bow, the bow on it.
59:27
SPEAKER_00: Yep, tie the bow, tie the bow.
59:29
SPEAKER_00: Awesome, Dave.
59:30
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
59:32
SPEAKER_00: The all these tools.
59:34
SPEAKER_00: If you have other tools, I hope we got to all of them.
59:36
SPEAKER_00: If we didn't get to all of them, we're gonna put a little bit of notes in the show notes if there's any other tools that you wanted to give our listeners.
59:42
SPEAKER_00: But we're going to move on to our rapid fire questions.
59:45
SPEAKER_00: Are you ready for them?
59:46
SPEAKER_04: Oh, yes.
59:47
SPEAKER_04: I I hope so.
59:48
SPEAKER_04: We'll find out.
59:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, it's rapid fire, so be prepared.
59:52
SPEAKER_04: So I have to answer really quick.
59:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, we didn't like stage this.
59:56
SPEAKER_00: It's really more the idea.
59:58
SPEAKER_00: Like, we're just gonna we're just gonna use these questions.
1:00:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_00: So, what is your favorite camp meal at Mountain Camp?
1:00:04
SPEAKER_00: What are you so excited about if it's in for dinner at the dining hall or a meal at the dining hall?
1:00:08
SPEAKER_04: Okay, I get teased for this, and I think that it will probably, in a lot of people's minds, lower their level of respect for me.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_04: I love a good corndog, and I know that they're terrible for me, but I'm just a sucker for a good corndog.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_04: And so when corndog meal comes at camp, like a lot of people are not so excited, but I smile a little while.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_04: You're the happiest guy in the dining hall.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I got a soft spot.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_00: There's nothing wrong with a corndog on a stick.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_00: It's great.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, all right.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_00: If you could lead any program area at a camp, what would it be?
1:00:44
SPEAKER_04: Well, for many years at camp, I did lead the evening program.
1:00:47
SPEAKER_04: So I, yeah, I obviously am a practiced talker and I've spent a lot of time in front of people and on stages.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_04: And I do love a good silly skit or silly song, and getting a chance to play a little guitar is always a joy.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, it would be evening program for us, our campfire.
1:01:06
unknown: Yeah.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I knew that you were a guitar player.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I'm not a guitar player, but yeah, I I play a little bit at campfire.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_00: You play one on TV.
1:01:15
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_00: S'more is burnt or golden brown.
1:01:19
SPEAKER_04: Oh, golden brown, definitely.
1:01:21
SPEAKER_04: I, you know, no hate on the the burn s'more thing, but I like to take my time.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_04: I'll I want the coals to burn down.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_04: I'm not up there in the flames, I'm down low, rotating.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I like to, I like to put the time and effort in to really get it just right.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_00: Dave Brown is a patient man.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm getting from that.
1:01:42
SPEAKER_00: Dave, as a camper, did you miss home and that made it hard to enjoy camp?
1:01:46
SPEAKER_00: Or were you like, peace out, family?
1:01:49
SPEAKER_00: I'll see you in a week or two.
1:01:51
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I didn't, I didn't experience homesickness or missing home when I was a camper.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_04: I was pretty easy about it.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_04: And in fact, the first time in my life when I really remember missing home was when I was was after my first child was born.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_04: And I was at a conference.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_04: I think I was gone for like a week, and I was like, oh, I miss this is what homesickness is.
1:02:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that was the first, and I remember very distinctly being like, I never really knew exactly what this feeling was like until right now.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_00: That's lovely.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_00: All right, as a camp pro, are you happiest on the phone, like in the office making things happen, or are you happier out in the action of camp?
1:02:33
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's a great question.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_04: You know, I think the answer should be out in the action, but I actually really spend like enjoy my time in the office and I enjoy being on the phone.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_04: I like being able to just kind of pace and walk around and talk to parents.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_04: And early in my career, those hard parent conversations terrified me.
1:02:53
SPEAKER_04: But as I practiced more and more at them, like I've gotten to the point where actually sometimes I'm like, okay, this is gonna be hard, but like let me try to figure out how to partner with this parent and get them on my side and actually have this go well, even though I've got some terrible news or some very difficult thing to talk about.
1:03:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I love that.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_00: All right, last one, favorite camp song.
1:03:18
SPEAKER_04: My favorite camp.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_04: So we do one called One Fat Hen, which counts up from one to ten.
1:03:25
SPEAKER_04: That's probably my favorite.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_04: I also years ago worked up a cover version of Johnny Cash's A Boy Name Sue, which was actually written by Dr.
1:03:34
SPEAKER_04: By uh not what why am I blanking on his name?
1:03:37
SPEAKER_04: The the poet who wrote where the sidewalk ends.
1:03:40
SPEAKER_04: Shell Silverstein.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_04: So Shell Silverstein wrote the lyrics to a boy named Sue, even though Johnny Cash made it made it famous, obviously.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_04: And so I practiced that many, many times until I was able to do the whole thing on stage, and that's one of my favorites.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
1:03:55
SPEAKER_01: I like that a very comprehensive answers, very comprehensive answers to our rapid fire.
1:04:02
SPEAKER_01: That was I thought the pace was really good for that.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_01: It was right, like I think Dave was a little worried about how quick he had to be, but we let it simmer, and yeah, that was high quality.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:04:14
SPEAKER_01: Top three from the whole season for sure.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that means a lot.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_01: Oh, thanks, Howie.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_01: Top three for the whole season, I think.
1:04:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_01: Dave, this has been really, really special.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_01: We've been wanting to get you on to share your insight for quite a while.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm really good.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_01: It all lined up really well.
1:04:31
SPEAKER_01: If our friends listening want to get a hold of you to learn more about Fence Post, to learn about Dave Brown, to benefit from some of the training opportunities that you provide out there, aside from being an awesome camp director.
1:04:44
SPEAKER_01: How do people get a hold of you?
1:04:46
SPEAKER_01: How do they connect with you?
1:04:48
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so Fence Post Learning is the website, www.fencepostlearning.com.
1:04:54
SPEAKER_04: And you can contact me through there.
1:04:56
SPEAKER_04: And that's got, you know, when you guys are talking more about kind of specific tools and techniques, a couple of the online courses on there have a lot of that type of thing built in.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_04: Some of the stuff we've talked about today, but other stuff too.
1:05:09
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:05:09
SPEAKER_04: And I'm always happy to talk to people about camp and and how how we can support them.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_04: Our mission at Fence Post is to support organizations who train people to work with kids.
1:05:19
SPEAKER_04: And so yeah, we'd be very excited to connect with people about furthering that mission.
1:05:23
SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
1:05:24
SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
1:05:25
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
1:05:25
SPEAKER_01: Kelly, people can connect with you in what ways?
1:05:30
SPEAKER_00: Email, you know, the good old-fashioned way.
1:05:32
SPEAKER_00: With it's Kelly with a Y at HiddenPinesRanch.com.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise on Instagram, I'm KJShuna3, or my camps is hidden HPR underscore insta.
1:05:43
SPEAKER_00: What about you, Howie?
1:05:44
SPEAKER_01: Howie at camprovinhood.ca, yay to Canada.
1:05:48
SPEAKER_01: And you can reach me on all social media channels at at Howie Grossinger.
1:05:53
SPEAKER_01: And if you want to learn more about our day camp, it's www.camprobinhood.ca.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_01: We are going to put lots of good stuff in the show notes for people to reference.
1:06:04
SPEAKER_01: This has been incredibly, incredibly informative, beneficial, and really comprehensive.
1:06:12
SPEAKER_01: I thought we jumped into so many great topics.
1:06:14
SPEAKER_01: Kelly, you said you knew we could tap into Dave for all kinds of stuff.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_01: I think we hit a lot of check boxes for us.
1:06:21
SPEAKER_01: So it was wonderful.
1:06:22
SPEAKER_01: Dave, thank you once again.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_01: And we look forward to connecting down the road on the show for sure.
1:06:28
SPEAKER_01: Definitely want to thank Camptivities for being our sponsor and for making all this happen.
1:06:33
SPEAKER_01: Please don't forget that you can find all of our show notes, as I mentioned, at gocamp.prownerspod.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_01: You can find the resources that we mentioned in this episode and lots of good stuff from our show and from other shows on the Go Camp Pro podcast.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_01: So check it out.
1:06:49
SPEAKER_01: We hope you enjoyed this episode.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
1:06:52
SPEAKER_01: And we can't wait to share another episode in the future on the Camp Owners Podcast.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_01: Take care, everybody.
1:07:01
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1:07:04
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1:07:09
SPEAKER_03: And don't forget, you can find our show notes at gocamp.pro slash ownerspod.
1:07:14
SPEAKER_03: The Camp Owners Podcast is part of the GoCamp Pro Podcast Network.
1:07:18
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1:07:24
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1:07:27
SPEAKER_03: In order to foster that spirit, if you've gotten even one good idea from a GoCamp Pro podcast, a masterclass, from the Summer Camp Pros group on Facebook, at a conference, or wherever else, we ask that you give credit where credit is due.
1:07:40
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1:07:46
SPEAKER_03: Thanks very much.