Latest / Ridiculous History / Modern Thanksgiving, Part Two: Sarah Josepha Hale Finally Gets Her Wish

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Modern Thanksgiving, Part Two: Sarah Josepha Hale Finally Gets Her Wish · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. It is officially, uh, it
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: is officially now no longer Halloween season and still autumn.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: We're moving on, We're moving on to November. Of course,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: we're joined with the one and only super producer, Max Williams.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: They call me Ben usually. No. This is the second
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: part of our two part series on Thanksgiving story that
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: I think neither of us knew about before we started
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: looking into. No, you know, it definitely makes sense, like
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: because I mean, within this very country as is pretty
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: pretty but still the case today, there's a bit of
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: a cultural divide at times over certain things, and something
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: has become associated with certain regions that maybe other regions
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  Speaker 1: of the country and in the South do not um
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: bye bye or do not appreciate. And that was definitely
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: a thing we were leading up to the literal civil war,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: the war pitting brother against brother and fighting for this
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: idea of whether it was okay to own another human being. Um.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: And we in our last episode kind of got to
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: the lead up to this, uh, this incredible conflict UM
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: that took place on American soil. But the rhetoric was
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: already starting to heat up, and Thanksgiving was becoming a
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: big talking point, this idea of like, oh, Thanksgiving as
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  Speaker 1: a Yankee, you know, um abolitionists holiday, and it shouldn't
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  Speaker 1: be required because it was becoming a thing that individual
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: states were trying to pass a day that would be
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: set aside for a Thanksgiving type celebration, and it was
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: becoming this kind of bone of contention, right, yeah, exactly.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: On the other side of the conflict, we have Sarah Hale,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: who was waging a sort of one woman mission to
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  Speaker 1: make everybody get on the same page about celebrating Thanksgiving.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: But because Thanksgiving was championed by people who were also abolitionist,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: the Southerners, some Southerners automatically hated it. There was a
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: palpable tension in the room of the country. And that's
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: what Part two picks up. Because Hail doesn't continue to
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: fight for Thanksgiving on a massive scale when the Civil
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  Speaker 1: War hits, despite the fact that she puts that on pause.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: A lot of things went on pause during the war.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: People are still having smaller Thanksgivings of their own, you know. Yeah, well,
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  Speaker 1: I mean you know, Haile definitely knew how to read
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  Speaker 1: the room, as did President Abraham Lincoln and self, who
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: seemed to be inching towards creating a national proclamation that
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: would set Thanksgiving as a national holiday instead of leaving
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: it up to the states. And even though Lincoln himself
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: did have an unofficial Thanksgiving meal with his family just
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: after being elected president, featuring roast turkey and all of
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: those you know, famous sides that we talked about, really
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: revolving around this notion of good health and prosperity for
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: the family. Despite his enjoyment of those fixings, he could
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: read the room and knew what a divisive subject this
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: was and decided he would, you know, put a pen
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  Speaker 1: in it. So when the Civil War did break out
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  Speaker 1: in earnest on April twelfth, eighteen sixty one, and those
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: plans for a national Thanksgiving holiday took a back seat
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  Speaker 1: um to the violence between the North and South, Sarah
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  Speaker 1: Jcifa Hale didn't really stop. I want to jump in
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: here because to clarify, she was still she was still
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: on her mission, but people weren't paying attention and she
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: didn't have as much support even though she was, you know,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: even though she was still the editorial head of that
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: very popular magazine magazine. It was a really banal kind
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: of name. It was something like Ladies Journal something Ladies Journal.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: If I'm not must ladies book, that's Cody's Lady's book.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: They could have done a better job, but you know,
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  Speaker 1: she was still on her bullshit, you know, on her Thanksgiving,
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  Speaker 1: on her Thanksgiving you know crusade, which was all about
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  Speaker 1: kind of creating this idyllic image of Thanksgiving, you know,
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  Speaker 1: as a cultural thing. That and also showing that it
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  Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily something tied to, you know, either the North
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  Speaker 1: or the South, or any particular type of religious ideology,
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  Speaker 1: which I think is funny, um because that became a
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  Speaker 1: bone of contention for some folks, to the idea that
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  Speaker 1: it was a religious holiday, which it really never has
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: been in my eyes, aside from you know, a few
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  Speaker 1: hymns that might have a little bit of a religious connotation.
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  Speaker 1: So flash forward a little bit to eighteen six d two.
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  Speaker 1: The President of the Confederacy, Mr. Jefferson Davis did issue
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  Speaker 1: Thanksgiving Day proclamations after some Southern victories, which is interesting,
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  Speaker 1: starting to co opt it a little bit. Right now,
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: we've got two competing days of thanks for ideas about
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  Speaker 1: how they should be handled, because Lincoln officially calls for
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  Speaker 1: day of thanks in April of the same year after
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  Speaker 1: some Union victories, and then he calls for it again
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  Speaker 1: after the Battle of Gettysburg in eighteen sixty three. So
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  Speaker 1: Hale writes to Lincoln shortly after his Summer Proclamation, and
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  Speaker 1: she also writes to William Seward, then Secretary of State,
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  Speaker 1: and she is saying, Hey, I hope everything's going all right.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of stuff on your plate
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  Speaker 1: right now, but how about how about we declare a
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: national Thanksgiving. The Executive branch has the power to make
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: this holiday a permanent American custom. The exact line she
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: uses is, thus the Great Union Festival of America would
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: be established. Lincoln's personal feelings on this immediately after receiving
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: the letter, uh, they may be lost to history, but
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: we know that within just a week of Seward receiving
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  Speaker 1: a letter from Hale, he had drafted an official proclamation
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: for President Lincoln. And that's where we get this. That's
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: where we get this date, which always seemed a little
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: confusing to me growing up. The final Thursday in November
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: it's it's something that they thought would help heal the nation,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: which is weird because Southerners didn't like it before the war, right,
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  Speaker 1: so how are they going to feel after the war?
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  Speaker 1: And why were there too Thanksgivings in eighteen sixty three.
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  Speaker 1: I've also never been a fan of holidays that are
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  Speaker 1: on the something, the something's day of the month, you know,
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  Speaker 1: that's changed from year to year. I just find it confusing.
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  Speaker 1: And that's why I, I swear to God, I thought that, Uh,
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: I thought the Thanksgiving would just always in novembery you know,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: but I'm obviously a dumb dumb But at least you
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: know Halloween steadfast, we know when that is Christmas, we
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: know when that is Thanksgiving a little more amorphous, And
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: I guess it makes sense because it kind of came
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: from these a morphous beginnings. Here's a little snippet of
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  Speaker 1: this proclamation. Um, I'm just gonna do it in my
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  Speaker 1: own voice. I do, therefore invite my fellow citizens in
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  Speaker 1: every part of the United States, and also those who
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  Speaker 1: are at sea and those who are sojourneying in foreign lands,
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: next as a day of thanksgiving and praise. Interesting to
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: our beneficent father who dwelleth in the heavens. Wow, whatever
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: happened a separation of church and state. Wasn't that a thing?
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: You know? How it is? I mean, there's never been
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: an atheist president, that's true. It was even controversial for
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: there to be Catholic presidents, right, our beneficent father who
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: dwelleth in the heavens. Come on, it sounds a little
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: love crafty. And honestly, whenever I hear dwelleth, I think
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: of I don't immediately think of churches, but uh, I
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: don't think of the thing people dwelling in the heavens.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: By the way, dwelling is something a giant monster does
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: beneath the sea. That's how in a cave. Yeah, that's
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: how we associate it. Right, he's dead, but dreaming will
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: rise whatever. So big Cathulu vibes. So this is pre
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Cthulhu mythos, of course, So nobody's getting the lovecraft vibes.
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  Speaker 1: Yet Lincoln goes on and he urges the citizens of
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  Speaker 1: the country to take the opportunity to here's more religious language,
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  Speaker 1: to commend to capital h his tender care all those
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: who have become widows, orphans, mourners, or sufferers, and the
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  Speaker 1: lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged. And
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  Speaker 1: then he asked for the interposition of the almighty hand
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  Speaker 1: to heal the wounds of the nation. Uh talks about
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: divine purpose. There's no official, like hardcore evidence that Hails
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  Speaker 1: letters caused Lincoln to make this proclamation, but the writing
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  Speaker 1: is kind of on the wall, right, this seems like
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  Speaker 1: it definitely played a role. And in eighteen sixty four
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  Speaker 1: A again said, all right, last Thursday in November, you
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: gotta get together with people. You gotta have some kind
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: of Thanksgiving. Then I have a theory Thanksgiving Turkey. You Now,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: at the top of episode one, I've talked about how
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: terrifying I think it is. You know what it looks like.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: It looks kind of like a cathoulu Oh, I'm gonna
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: send you something I have. This is this is worth it.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna drop it in the chat here. I
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: don't know if you guys are aware of this, but
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: you're about to have a wonderful moment. You know, pause
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: for a second through the mad of podcasting so I
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: can share this with you. M Okay, this is happening live, folks.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna spook spook max again. Okay, there
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: it is, here we go. Oh my god, it's turkey
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Ulu like a turkey a toe turkey. Yeah, so yeah,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: this is what are those freaking octopus eggs? His eyes? Yeah? Yeah,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: there there are a couple of different ones here. There's
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: also an octopus poured out of the cavity with some
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: crab legs coming out of the sides. And oh my good,
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: this is okay. Yeah. My theory, Ben is the HP
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Lovecraft was inspired by the turkey and perhaps this very
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: ominous Thanksgiving proclamation. Yeah, well, maybe that's what all I'll
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: bring to the table when we all get together for
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: the holiday. Please please God. Second one, Ben, the second one, one, Ben,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: it looks delicious. Well maybe I'm down. I'm down to
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: eat caulu. I'm down to try to some elder God flesh.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: The second one, I will say, the cook on the
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: turkey itself is a little more to my liking. The
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: I might eat that when the first one looks almost
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: like the turkey is like raw or something. It's very underdone.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: But but that's slight diversion aside. Uh, we're just here
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: to show you that there's been a lot of a
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: lot of progress and innovation in the world of cooking turkey,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: maybe not all of it for the best. Still that
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: was you know, the conventional thing that people would eat
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: on Thanksgiving, and the Thanksgiving of eighteen sixty four was
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: heavily militarized. There was a lot of propaganda. It was
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: all about thanking the Union troops. And this also shows
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: us some early evidence of the feast becoming the highlight
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: of the holiday. So it's not just generically giving thanks
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: for something now, it's getting together and eating while you
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: give thanks. So they also through UM, through this big
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: feast for Union veterans, and you know as probably as
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: part of Thanksgiving. Yeah, this thing called the Union League
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Club of New York. Uh was very focused on making
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: sure that soldiers, whether they are on land or water
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: or abroad, did not go without a Thanksgiving dinner. And
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: it's also that's it's it really has become kind of
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: a thing that charities do as well, like in you know,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: under underserved communities around the country. UM is the idea
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: of passing out Christmas turkeys or Thanksgiving turkeys, you know,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: like out of trucks. It's the thing you do to
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: kind of earn the goodwill of your community, right Yeah. Yeah,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: And there's a you know this has changed during COVID,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: but there's a tip that I would like to give people.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: If you have a little free time, Um, if you
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: can't make it to your own Thanksgiving for scheduling or
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: for travel costs or something, be aware that a lot
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: of those places, especially if you live in a large city,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: a lot of those places need help. So if you
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: want to volunteer, you will be welcome. There's a thing
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: that you can also do for community service providers, for firefighters,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: you know, people working in hospitals just uh, make make
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: a snack or make some cupcakes, drop it off because
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: they still have to work, you know what I mean.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: They don't really get holidays off the way a lot
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: of other people do. Again, Um, that may have changed
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: during COVID. The requirements maybe like something has to be
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: sterilized and prepackaged, but I can guarantee you people appreciate
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: it because they're often doing thankless jobs. Yeah. And and
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: back back in the days that we're talking about, the
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Union League Club of New York got a lot of
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: support from volunteers. They got a lot of support from
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: local restaurants and kitchens that would volunteer their their facilities
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: to cook the food. It would be turkey and cranberry
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: sauce and a lot of those other fix things that
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: we've been talking about. Um, I think by now the
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: chicken pot pie was probably fully gone, which makes me
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: sad because I do love a chicken pot pie. But then,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: have you have Have you had fresh cranberry sauce? Actually,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: like you know, it's not for everybody, but I will
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: say it is delicious, especially when compared to that awful
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: stuff that slowly slides out of the can and can shape.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of that stuff. And for the
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: longest time I thought that was the only game in town,
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: and so I thought I did not like cranberry sauce.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: But in fact I had some really nice, artisanal cranberry
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: sauce and it was quite good. It makes a difference,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: I gotta I gotta argue with you. No, I've had
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: like the like fresh ones like a bunch of times,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: not canberries, the really gross slime ones. Those are the
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: best where it still has the shape of the cans.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: The rim is so slow dog food. I feel it.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: But it's kind of like you can have it. You
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: can have it all. Max Will we have a rediculous
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: history Thanksgiving together, and I will have just like multiple
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: cans of Analey right next to Knowla's straight out of
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: the can, and I'll bring my cathuw turkey. Uh will
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: have a big old time. It's Uh. It's funny though,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: because the canonization or standardization of what constitutes a Thanksgiving
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: meal kind of reminds me of something that's been on
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: my mind, uh for a few months now, which is
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: the gradual disappearance of McDonald's mascots. They went away, kind
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: of chicken pot pie. When's the last time you saw
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Grimace or the Hamburglar or mayor what's his name, Mick cheese,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: m cheese mayor mccheese. Yeah, they've They don't think there
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: are a lot of use them anymore, are they They Well,
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: they don't. And Vice has a really great article on
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: the disappearance of Ronald McDonald which is kind of cryptic. Actually,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: maybe we do it, eppisothough he does still survive in
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: the philanthropic wing of McDonald's the Ronald McDonald house. Their
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: logo still is a kind of weird gloved clown hand
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: holding hands with the child's hands right, which is a
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: little sinister. But it's the one place you still see
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: the Ronald McDonald name even thrown around and the old statues.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: I guess they're just they're not making new commercials. If
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: they do make new commercials, if you're listening McDonald's commercial makers,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: go back to that very first terrifying, old school Ronald
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: McDonald clown. You guys remember that when jeverssy that guy,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, nightmare fuel. Yes, big red wig, right, big
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: red kind of fuzzy, frizzy wig. Or am I thinking
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: of Oh it's worse, It's so much worse. Hang on,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Oh good lord. He's got like a cup on his
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: nose yeah yeah, And and like the blood of children
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: steared across his face. Wow. Yeah. And he had a
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: magic belt kind of like Fannie pack thing for what,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: whipping children with generate burgers and fries and milkshakes. This
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: is absolute nightmare field. We'll check out the videos. That
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: some kind of box on his head. It looks like
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: a box of the way the turkey. I think I've
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: still got some Halloween and me, guys, so clearly, well,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: I did say from the start that Thanksgiving as a
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: terrifying holiday. I mean, that was my pitch, do you
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: guys for us doing this at this time? And we
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: had a nice little bridge here because our first episode
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: took place dury in October, but now this episode is
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: coming out in November, so we're we're kind of crossing
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: the calendar calendar stream here. We're making new traditions, right,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: And that's what I'm all about. That's what the that's
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: what the US was trying to do at this time.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: But despite the success of beautiful things like the Union
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: League Clubs Thanksgiving Dinner, people in the South still didn't
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: like the idea of following the Northern model of a
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: Thanksgiving holiday. It wasn't until after the end of the
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: reconstruction era that Southern community leaders began to celebrate Thanksgiving
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: in the Northern way because they wanted the South to
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: get back into the national commercial life. That's really what
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: it was. They wanted businesses to come back and invest,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: and because of this, they felt an incentive to I
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: conform really is probably the best way to say it.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: That's right. They did have to kind of show solidarity
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: in some way or another, right the same way that Germans,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: you know, after the Nazi regime we're toppled, had this
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: kind of collective guilt almost there's even a word for
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: it in German. I believe it's Begangan Heights, and I
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: refer specifically to a collective uh national um guilt surround
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: in the Holocaust. So there obviously was a culture of
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: you know, never forgetting. You know, certain relics became illegal
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: and very heavily regulated. I'm not comparing the South at
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: the end of the Civil War to Nazi Germany. I'm
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: just saying there's a similar kind of you know, uh
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: ZEITGEISTI kind of need to conform and make amends. Yeah,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: and this conformity is culinary in part, they have to
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: start making turkey dinners and pumpkin pies, which they regarded
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: largely as a northern thing. The editors of national magazines,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: again most national, most of the big magazines were made
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: in the Northeast. They all stepped up and followed Hale's example.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: That's why if you look at publications like Harper's Bizarre,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Goadie's Ladies Book, and Good Housekeeping you'll see so many
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: like recipe ideas for Thanksgiving, and newspapers in the South
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: also had these detailed in instructions. Thanksgiving now was no
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: longer a thing where you would just get together with
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: your loved ones and you know, cook whatever you happen
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: to have on hand. Now it was increasingly codified Thanksgiving
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: equals turkey, which is probably great for the turkey industry.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Let's be honest, Thanksgiving cranberries, Thanksgiving equals pumpkin pies. And
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: here's something that's interesting. Um, we were just talking about
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: our preferences for cranberry sauce. It turns out that cranberries
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: weren't even a fruit that was cultivated, uh, south of
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: New Jersey. Um. It was very much a northern um,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: you know crop. So the fact that Southerner started to
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: include that in their meals showed that kind of solidarity, um,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: and that they were like ready to you know, kind
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: of buckle down and become part of the union. And again,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: I now, I'm I was gonna take it out, but
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna edit myself ever so slightly. There we
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: know that there was not some sort of collective guilt
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: or that instantly the South felt bad for what they
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: had done. That's literally what you know, led to racism
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: and the long hard period of reconstruction. Um and and
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: then of course into segregation. So it's not like all
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, oh we lost, we see the air
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: of our ways. We're gonna start doing Thanksgiving and we're
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: gonna be good boys and girls. That's not how it went. Um.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: It was a lot of it was probably pageantry to
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: you know, just to get things back to normal, but
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: a lot of simmering resentments, uh certainly remained simmering, like
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: a like a nice pan of cranberry sauce. Yeah. And
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: if you go forward to the eighteen eighties, you see
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: places like the Augusta Chronicle, which should be familiar to
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: unual uh conc commenting U things like, I'll say, most
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: of the Thanksgiving will take the form of gastronomic plagile.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Every person who can have a full turkey or procuate
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: wheels sacrific fast the noble American foul to date. Uh
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Like this is just an example of how it's odd
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: because it seems so coordinated. Right, every publication note is
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: saying don't just give thanks but specifically eat turkeys and
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: and eat cranberries and if the making telegraph even said,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: and if you can afford it, you know, pop open
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: some wine, you know what I mean? Party time. This
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: became over this period of the eighties to about eight nine,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: this became a more and more commonly celebrated holiday and
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: celebrated in an increasingly uniform way. It became so popular
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: fact that the Charlotte News remarked that Thanksgiving as a
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: holiday was second only to Christmas, which I don't know,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: what do you guys think about that in the hierarchy
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: of holidays. It's pretty popular in terms of like the
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: big family gathering and one that has given a lot
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: of precedent, you know, in workplace situations. In terms of
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: definitely having to have it off. I would say their
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: neck and neck. Yeah, I don't say like they gotta
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: they gotta be like yeah, Christmas one, I mean Harbor Day,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: I mean what I mean? What would be also be
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: a considerational Independence Day, New Year's Day, Indigenous People's Day. Yes,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: apparently we still don't call it that in the South.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: That's a bit of a bummer, we don't. There's also
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: let's see, there's Memorial Day, right, that's a big one
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: that's Labor Day, uh, Halloween. Most just mostly just thing
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: in the days that we get half days here at
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: our heart. Yeah you're thinking of the days we get
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: days off. Yes, uh, of course June tenth, which I'm
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: happy to say is is now a holiday at our company. Anyhow,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Thanksgiving becomes very popular. Typical menu for nine Thanksgiving would
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: be stuff like oysters which is cool, roast turkey with
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: cranberry sauce, sweet potatoes, celery, and uh, Irish potatoes just
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: two potatoes, potatoes. But that's I was trying to think
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: what an Irish potato is, like, how is that any different? Well,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: you know, if you've ever been to like five Guys
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Burgers and Fries, they have a board that tells you
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: where the potatoes come from every time, and they're from
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: all over the country. But when I think of Irish potato,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: is it just kind of like a Russet type potato,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: like a big spun. It's just a differentiated, I think
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: from the sweet potato. So there is something cool here.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: The South starts passing on its own Thanksgiving traditions. For
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: an explanation, this will turn to William R. Ferris, who
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: was a history professor and Senior Associate Director at the
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Center for the Study of the American South at u
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: n C. In Ferris's estimation, you can see you can
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: see the Southern touches on the traditional Thanksgiving like, um,
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: you might have soul food. Corn bread dressing is a
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: big thing. You might have candy gams. People also might
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: cook their turkeys differently, like fry a turkey that's pretty cool. Um,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: or make dressing with with fresh oysters. I've never done
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: oyster dressing. Yep, my mom has. Uh. She's also a
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: big fan of making oyster stew on Christmas Morning, some
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: sort of a tradition. But yeah, exactly. Um, oyster dressing
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: is fabulous if you're into oysters. They're not fried, they're
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: kind of chopped, but they just add a little of
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: that ummy to it. I'm a big fan of, like,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: you know, mushroom dressing, like just different types. Like have
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: give me like three or four different types of dressing.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: It's the best. I have a weird, completely off topic
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: story about oysters, but I'm gonna throw it in here. Uh.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: When I was out in Seattle, I met up with
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: my buddy and he had driven up from Portland. I
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: had flown, like you know, from Atlanta to Seattle. It
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: was like five pm. I even. We're like, all right,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: we're gonna get some foods. We went pizza place trying
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: to be really nice, and we're looking at the menu
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: and we're like, all right, it's gotten like oyster pizza.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: Go on, is this gonna be any good? We just
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: ordered it. It was like the best thing I've eat
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: in my entire life. What kind of cheese did it have?
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: I have no earthly idea. I just thought it always
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: there's and ordered it. And I was like, I asked him.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: I asked my buddy, like, hey, would you be down
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: to split this Thing's like sure, man, I'll eat something
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: weird with you. I'm stupid hungry. That's awesome. Yeah, we
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: gotta try that. And Max, let us know if you
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: can recall the name of that place, because I because
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: my social life is very interesting, I find myself just
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: reading menus of restaurants across the world at the weirdest times. Actually, no,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: I can predict it. It's usually what I should be
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: eating something. You know. I'm like, hmmm, what is the
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: best restaurant in Bangladesh? What do they serve on the menu,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: what would I get there? So the reason I bring
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: up that example is a kind of living vicariously through
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: the idea of of these foods. And foods are a
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: powerful folk way. Uh. They are a nine turns sometimes
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: a divider. And maybe one of the reasons thanks Giving
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: became so popular in this country now is because it
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: feels for most people a political right. You're putting aside
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: differences to have have um a very traditional meal with
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: each other. And Ferris points out, I think Ferris would
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: agree with us on this. You know, he certainly would. Yeah,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: these you know, it certainly was again something that none
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: of the three of us had associated with it at all.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: But it wasn't fully during this um Civil War period
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: that this step actually happened. It wasn't until nine that
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: President Franklin Roosevelt briefly move Thanksgiving up an entire week
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: in a pretty misguided effort to extend that shopping period
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: before Christmas. Uh. And I believe people kind of collectively
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: lost their minds at the very least, just like did
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: not do it right. Sixteen difference state said get out
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: of here with that, get out of here with your
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: weird calendar. Shenanigans, and this led Roosevelt to actually reverse
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: his decision two years later, and so in the fall
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: of U s. Congress passed the resolution returning the holiday
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: to the fourth Thursday of November and making it a
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: permanent thing, so presidents no longer had to issue a
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: new declaration or proclamation every single year. And in this case,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: we also give a kudos to Sarah Hale because she
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: had chosen the very similar date, the last Thursday in
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: November for Thanksgiving, because she thought it would be distraction free.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: It's after the fall harvest, and it's after any potential elections.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: With that, I think the best way to end our
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: story here is to ask ourselves what happened to our
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Thanksgiving protagonists, our champion of culinary traditions, Sarah Turkey Turkey,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: yes McDonald, of Ronald McDonald. It's just oh man, I
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: don't know why that image makes my day, but yes,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: those those dudes. But also Sarah Hale. She went on to,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: you know, we have a really successful career as an
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: actor in a very popular HBO series called Sex in
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: the City. Yeah, little doing fact, little known fact. No, no,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: I I obviously could she would in fact continue Despite um,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: you know, having her her whole master plan, her evil
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: holiday master plan uh successfully enacted, she continued to have
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: a pretty big impact on Thanksgiving moving forward. She also
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: changed the way elementary school kids learned about the whole
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: methos of the First Thanksgiving. UM. Right before Sarah's big
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: old campaign for Thanksgiving, that romanticized version that I'm talking
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: about wasn't really a thing. But in eighteen sixty five,
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Sarah described the First Thanksgiving as this kind of, you know,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: a little bit pat romanticized meeting between the Pilgrims and
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Native Americans, and how it was all, you know, maize
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: and handshakes and hugs, and it got reprinted in a
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: bunch of publications. UM, And in around five years that
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: became the narrative. And though it's not historically accurate, that
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: is what people went with. No airbrush doesn't begin to
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: describe it. In fact, studies show the First Thanksgiving was
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: probably a lot more like a political negotiation as opposed
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: to a Turkey party. Sarah Hale went on to spend
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: forty years as the editor of Goadie's Ladies Book. She
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: published her very last column in December of eighteen seventy seven.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: She was widely known as the Mother of Thanksgiving when
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: she passed away in April of eighteen seventy nine at
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: the age of ninety. Yes, he's kind of a uh.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know that the idea of the story of
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Thanksgiving that she sort of you know, popularized to me
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: is largely the checkered part of her legacy. You know,
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: I have no problem with the holiday, uh, and it
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: being a time of thanks and it is you know,
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: again a really good way of introducing some some some
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: culinary you know, activities into otherwise, you know, maybe homes
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: that wouldn't normally cook. I think that's cool, but you know,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: the whole like and then the Indians welcomed the settlers
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: with open arms instead. Everything was all cool and they
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: just eight foods together and totally gave him the thumbs up.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: You know. That's kind of the vibe through the trail
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: of tears. Everything was by everybody at a Turkey brand.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Everything was great. Yeah, that's unfortunately, as we see, you know,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: there there was a lot of propaganda involved in the
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: creation of this as a new notifying cultural touchstone. But Thanksgiving,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: or some version of it, is not restricted to the US. Uh.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: We we know of a a wonderful story of a
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: tiny little island part of Australia, hundreds and hundreds of
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: miles away from the mainland, home to less than two
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: thousand people. It's Norfolk Island and they love Thanksgiving. Yeah.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Apparently the island was originally populated by folks who were
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: descended from uh some British sailors who actually did a
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: mutiny on the h MS Bounty and they survived and
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: uh took several Tahitians captive, where they fled to Pitcaren
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Island in seventeen ninety uh and then they obviously, you know,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: had kids and stuff. And then in eighteen fifty six
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: their kids moved to the larger island nearby, uh, the
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Norfolk Island. So it's become kind of a weird combination
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: of Tahitian and you know, European Thanksgiving kind of celebration. Yes,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: so if you happen to be in Norfolk Island it's
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: the last Wednesday in November, then you can hang out
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: at their Thanksgiving service. So you might ask yourself, hang on,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: why do these folks almost on the other side of
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: the world celebrate this American holiday. Well we have the
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: answer thanks to Anne you Bank over at Atlas Obscura.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: She explains that Norfolk Island has always been kind of
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: a pit stop for people who are traveling by sea.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: And in seven, as we're getting to the height of
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Thanksgivings acceptance, there's a resident of Norfolk Island, a guy
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: named Isaac Robertson, who becomes the American Consul, meaning he's
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: the diplomatic representative of the United States. And so one
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: year he decided he wanted to celebrate Thanksgiving, so he
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: decorated the pews of the local church with paul leaves
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: and lemons. Uh, and he just he just made it
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: a thing. He just made it happen. Hey, everybody checked
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: out American culture. When he passed away. Uh, people kept
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: up the holiday with their own list. And yeah, you know,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: because I was wondering, I said something like, sort of
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: off handily, like, oh, so, I guess they're celebrating sort
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: of like a hybrid sort of UK version of Thanksgiving,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: which isn't really a thing. They do celebrate a Thanksgiving
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: esque holiday with some of the same trimmings, like with
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: turkey and stuff, but it's more of a fall harvest festival.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Uh than it than it would be considered Thanksgiving. So
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: this was sort of a three times removed Americanized Thanksgiving
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: sort of celebration. It's very interesting. Yeah, And every family
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: in the US tends to have their own sort of
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: traditions for this time of year. For example, you may
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: have a relative who always makes the same cast role
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: every year, and that's like what they're known for, their
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: corn cast role or what have you. You may have
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: traditional side dishes, or you may have a spot you
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: always meet at. We'd love to hear more about your
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: personal Thanksgiving traditions and then we'd love to hear your
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: ideas of I'd love to hear ideas of Um, if
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: every holiday that we named in the show had like
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: a meal, like if there was we know there's a
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Christmas feast, right people, like people have goose in Britain
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: for Christmas sometimes, But what would what would the meal
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: be for you know, Memorial Day or Harbor Day or
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: what are the other ones we named? Harbor Day would
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: be presumably just dried leaves or something, or what a
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: whole tree or the tree eats you because respecting the tree, right? Okay? Yeah,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: sacrifice sacrifice, blood sacrifice. We keep going dark in this
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: wee peek behind the curtains. Folks, we are recording this
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: just a few days before Halloween. Maybe that's it. You
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: guys got in costume idea us. By the way, I
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: have decided to be a middle aged white man. Yeah,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: I have decided to be a just slightly younger than
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: nol middle aged white man. You guys are doing a
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: couple's costume. It's so what a little wild ride this is.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know about you, guys, but this is definitely
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: made me hungry, which means that instead of actually eating,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna read menus from other countries. Well, I
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: ordered too much Chinese food for lunch, so I am
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: going to do what for many is also a Thanksgiving
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: tradition and eat a ton of Chinese food, right right,
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: And with that we give thanks. That's sort of a
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: tradition of our show. We're sort of a very thanks
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: forward show, if you think about in every episode with
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: pouring our hearts out and thanksgiving to all those who
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: have made this show possible, including Max Williams, super producer
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: extraordinaire Alex Williams, who composed our theme Gabe Louisier, the
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: King of Thanksgiving, the Great Pumpkin Gabe Lousier, Turkey Jathan
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: simply our number one turth. Fucking Now, that sounds weird
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: to how what did you call it? Banta to Turkey
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Turkey got it? That's definitely a strickling kind of vibe.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Who else, Let's see we've also got Christopher Haciotis Jeff
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Eve's Jeff Coat. And also big thanks to our dear
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: friend Casey pegram a big thanks to everybody for tuning
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: into the show. If you want to drop us a
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: review on Apple somewhere, we would, We would greatly appreciate
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: that that does make a difference. But as as Noel said,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: we are immensely thankful for all of our ridiculous historians
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: tuning in. And I want to thank this life size
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: plastic skeleton I live with now Scully um and thanks
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: for maybe that's such a HALLOWEENI episode two, guys so excited.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: I was surprised we kept going dark with it, anything
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: to extend the greatest holiday of the year, though I
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: do I do like a good, a good, a good
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: turkey leg Let's see you next time, folks. Yeah for
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: favorite shows.