Latest / Relatively Famous with Chip White / Francis Gary Powers’ Son Gary Powers Jr

Transcript

Francis Gary Powers’ Son Gary Powers Jr · Relatively Famous with Chip White

• 0:00
  Speaker 0: Welcome to another episode of Relatively Famous, the
• 0:02
  Speaker 0: podcast where I, Chip White, interview relatives of
• 0:05
  Speaker 0: famous people. My famous relative is Vanna White
• 0:07
  Speaker 0: of the TV show Wheel of Fortune or
• 0:09
  Speaker 0: the game show Wheel of Fortune. She's been
• 0:10
  Speaker 0: on TV forty five plus years. Anyway, that's
• 0:14
  Speaker 0: why I have the podcast. I like to
• 0:15
  Speaker 0: talk to other relatives. Our guest today, I'm
• 0:19
  Speaker 0: excited about it. It's a history it's a
• 0:21
  Speaker 0: history yes... Guest. In the late fifties, early
• 0:25
  Speaker 0: sixties, there was a u two incident over
• 0:29
  Speaker 0: Russia. Spy plane, astronaut plane was shot down.
• 0:33
  Speaker 0: Gary Powers was the pilot. They did a
• 0:35
  Speaker 0: movie called Bridges of Spies about it later
• 0:38
  Speaker 0: with Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks. It's a
• 0:41
  Speaker 0: really fascinating story. I I implore you to
• 0:44
  Speaker 0: Google Gary Powers and the YouTube incident. Today,
• 0:49
  Speaker 0: we have his son, Gary Powers junior, who
• 0:52
  Speaker 0: has amazing story of his own. He really
• 0:54
  Speaker 0: works to keep his father's history alive and,
• 0:58
  Speaker 0: right some wrongs and all that. So let's
• 1:00
  Speaker 0: welcome Gary Powers Junior.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Relatively Famous podcast with Chip White.
• 1:23
  Speaker 0: Gary, welcome to Relatively Famous.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you. Nice to be, with you,
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Chip.
• 1:29
  Speaker 0: Yeah. I I, we were just talking earlier.
• 1:31
  Speaker 0: I I do minimal research. I do remember
• 1:35
  Speaker 0: your dad's story from my youth because it
• 1:38
  Speaker 0: was kinda taught in history back then, stuff
• 1:40
  Speaker 0: that they don't talk about anymore. So I'm
• 1:43
  Speaker 0: interested to hear what you had to say
• 1:45
  Speaker 0: about it and and what your life is
• 1:47
  Speaker 0: like because I know you spend a lot
• 1:49
  Speaker 0: of time keeping his story alive. Mhmm. I
• 1:54
  Speaker 0: have a a a loyal viewer. His name
• 1:57
  Speaker 0: is Warren Warren Chrome, and he had a
• 2:00
  Speaker 0: question. So I'm gonna get the question first
• 2:02
  Speaker 0: out the bat, then we're gonna jump in.
• 2:03
  Speaker 0: His question is why do you think it
• 2:05
  Speaker 0: took thirty plus years to... For your dad
• 2:07
  Speaker 0: to get the recognition that he deserved? That
• 2:11
  Speaker 0: make sense?
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Well, the... Yeah. The first question, why did
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: it take so long for him to get
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: recognized as a hero to our country? Primarily,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: because of all the misinformation, the fake news,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: the conspiracy theories that circulated around after the
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: u two incident and that you can still
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: find on the Google searches today. Back in
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty after my father was shot down,
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: it was easier to blame the pilot than
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: to publicly admit we are behind the Soviets
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: and missile technology. It was easier to blame
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: the pilot than to further embarrass president Eisenhower
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: who had just been caught in line to
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: the American public... To the world public because
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: of the u two incident. Eisenhower said it
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: was a weather research flight, and then Khrushchev
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: was able to prove that it was a
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: CIA spy flight. They had captured Gary Powers.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: They put him on trial. People, that I
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: like to call armchair generals are saying, he
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: should have done this. He should have done
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: that. If it was me, I would have
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: done it this way. Well, they weren't there.
• 3:15
  Speaker 0: Right. Yeah. It's... A lot of people... It
• 3:18
  Speaker 0: is easier. People tend to, oh, if I
• 3:20
  Speaker 0: was there, it's like, we all wanna be
• 3:22
  Speaker 0: heroic in a moment. Right? In our minds,
• 3:25
  Speaker 0: we tell moving stories. But when you're in
• 3:28
  Speaker 0: that moment, things are always different.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Right. Yeah. Yeah. The the dad was there.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: He had to make the decisions. He was
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: trained to, do what he was doing. He
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: had minimal, what would you call it, instructions
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: on what to do if captured. He basically
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: was told by one of the briefers at
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: one point in time over a four year
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: period, if you get caught, you might as
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: well tell them everything. They'll get it out
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: of you anyways. But to dad's credit, he,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: lied to him when he could. He misled
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: them as much as he could. He did
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: not give away any classified information. All the
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: stuff that he provided to them, they could
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: get through open source, but he appears to
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: cooperate. So that's one of the things he
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: came home and was debriefed by the CIA.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: They realized he did everything he was supposed
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: to do. He followed his orders to a
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: tee. They clear him. He appears before a
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: senate select committee hearing. The senators for two
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: hours ask him tons of questions back and
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: forth. At the end of the session, they
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: clear him. So he's been cleared by the
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: CIA. He's been exonerated by the US senate,
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: but he's not yet been cleared by the
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: court of public opinion because of the fake
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: news at the time. And that's why I
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: believe it took so long for him to
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: get the recognition he deserved back in nineteen
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: sixty. In nineteen, ninety eight, there was a
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: declassification conference hosted by CIA and the US
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Air Force. Two very important things were revealed
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: as a result of that declassification conference. First,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: the altitude at which dad was shot down,
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: seventy thousand five hundred feet. There was no
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: flame out. There was no descent. There was
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: no sabotage. There was no pilot error. It
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: was the near miss of a Soviet SA
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: two missile, new and improved, that brought down
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: the plane on May first. So that was
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: declassified on the US government side. The second
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: thing that was declassified, CIA working hand in
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: hand with the US government, with the with
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: the US Air Force. US Air Force, CIA
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: working together could not be separated. It was
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: a military operation. And once that word military
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: was declassified, that allowed the American government to
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: step up to the plate and honor dad
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: posthumously as a hero to our country. Back
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: in nineteen fifties and early sixties when dad
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: was doing these overflights with the other YouTube
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: pilots, Eisenhower did not wanna provoke World War
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: three. Military plane, military pilot over a foreign
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: hostile country is an act of war. Eisenhower
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: wants to gather intelligence. Hence why the CIA,
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: a civilian agency, ran the operation. But now,
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: forty plus years later, turns out it's a
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: military operation. The Cold War has ended. There's
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: no more Soviet Union. Things can now be
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: brought to light and declassified as a historic
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: context to see what happened. So I go
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: to this conference, and I see this information.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: It's a military operation. I write a few
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: letters to the air force and the CIA
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: saying, hey. Military operation, does this qualify my
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: father for any military, decorations or awards? And
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: so they wrote me back
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: and said, yes. As a result of this
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: declassification conference, it was a
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: military operation. Conference, it was a military operation.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: He will be awarded posthumously the POW medal,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: the distinguished flying cross, and a, service medal.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know the exact title of it.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Those medals were presented to the family on
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: May first of two thousand at a ceremony
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: at Beale Air Force Base in California. So
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: at that time, that's when dad was officially
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: recognized as a hero to our country by
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: the military and the US Air Force.
• 7:12
  Speaker 0: Yeah. There was,
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: twelve in June, June fifteenth, I think it
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: was, at a ceremony at the Pentagon. The
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: head general at the time, general Schwartz, presents
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: the family with dad's silver star. So it
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: took forty and fifty years respectively for the
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: US government to set the record straight and
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: honor dad as a hero to our country
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: with these military awards and decorations. So that's
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: why I believe it took so long is
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: it was the political context of the time.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: It couldn't be done in the sixties because
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: the cold war was still going on. That
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: was very controversial. Enough time passed, and, eventually,
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: everything was set straight.
• 7:52
  Speaker 0: Yeah. That... I'll I'll look at it in
• 7:56
  Speaker 0: today's world with social media. People take a
• 7:58
  Speaker 0: beating endlessly for for certain things. You you
• 8:04
  Speaker 0: said it was controversial. There was a lot
• 8:06
  Speaker 0: of misinformation, a lot. Did... What was his...
• 8:12
  Speaker 0: I don't know if I can't... I don't
• 8:13
  Speaker 0: know if you were... You were kinda born
• 8:14
  Speaker 0: after that. What what... How did he deal
• 8:16
  Speaker 0: with that? Do... Did he talk about it
• 8:18
  Speaker 0: with you later in life? I mean Yeah.
• 8:20
  Speaker 0: That... That's a beating that you you don't
• 8:22
  Speaker 0: deserve, but you you... What was he gonna
• 8:24
  Speaker 0: say? Right?
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: Right. Well, dad, had a very good head
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: on his shoulders. He did not care what
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: other people thought he should or should not
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: have done. He knew that everything he did
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: under those circumstances, was the right thing to
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: do. So he was very comfortable knowing he
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: did everything, of of that he should have
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: done. He didn't care what other people thought.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: You know? He just... He blew it off.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: So for him, he was very comfortable, knowing,
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: that, the circumstances that he went through, he
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: did everything he was expected to do under
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: those circumstances. As far as myself, I was
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: born after the u two incident. The u
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: two incident takes place May first of nineteen
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: sixty. My father goes through three months of
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: solitary confinement and interrogations. August seventeenth to August
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: nineteenth, there's a three day show trial. He's
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: sentenced to ten years in prison. He served
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: a total of twenty one months in captivity
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: before being exchanged for Soviet spy Rudolf Abel
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: at the Gleniker Bridge, Potsdam, Germany, February tenth
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: of sixty two. He comes home. He gets
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: debriefed by the CIA. He appears before the
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: senate select committee hearing. His first marriage to
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: his wife, Barbara, disintegrates. It falls apart while
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: they... While he's incarcerated, so they divorce upon
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: his return home in sixty two. He meets
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: my mom in sixty two to sixty three
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: in, the CIA headquarters. She's also working there
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: as a secretary at the time. And then,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: romance ensues. They get married in October of
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: sixty three in Virginia. He moves out to
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: LA, California with his new bride, gets a
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: job with Lockheed Aircraft Corporation between sixty three
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: and seventy. I am born out there in
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five, June, Sun Valley, California, overlooking
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: the Burbank Airport, which is where Lockheed Skunk
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: Works was, stationed. And so I'm growing up
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: with dad as a Lockheed test pilot, then
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: he goes and writes a book Operation Overflight
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: that depicts his account of the Butu incident.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: He, goes on the lecture circuit for two
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: years, then gets a job in seventy two
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: with KGIL radio station, San Fernando Valley, suburb
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: of Los Angeles, reporting on news weather and
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: traffic for the rush hour commutes. That leads
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: to a job with NBC, KNBC News affiliate
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: in Los Angeles flying their helicopter, reporting on
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: news weather and traffic for the evening news.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: And he dies August first of seventy seven,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: a helicopter crash coming back from Santa Barbara,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: California. The helicopter runs out of gas. The
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: crash kills, my father as well as the
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: cameraman that was on board at the time.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: So that was a very, very quick condensed
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: version of dad's life in that time period.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:18
  Speaker 0: Yeah. I I... Because I read about that,
• 11:21
  Speaker 0: and I, I I... It's kind of ironic
• 11:24
  Speaker 0: that he ends up... A helicopter crash takes
• 11:26
  Speaker 0: his life when he survived getting shot down
• 11:28
  Speaker 0: at seventy five thousand feet.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 11:31
  Speaker 0: He... Tell us a little bit about the
• 11:33
  Speaker 0: book, and and then let's find out about
• 11:36
  Speaker 0: Gary Powers Junior.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Sure. Which book? Dad's book or my book?
• 11:40
  Speaker 0: Dad's book, and then we'll go into your
• 11:41
  Speaker 0: books.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: Okay. So my father's book Operation Overflight came
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: out in nineteen seventy, the tenth anniversary of
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: the shoot down. He writes it with coauthor
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Kurt Gentry. Kurt Gentry, his next book after
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Operation Overflight, you may have heard of, Helter
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: Skelter, all about Manson, the Tate Mubianca murders
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: in, Coldwater or Laurel Canyon area of Hollywood
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: back in the late sixties. So, that was
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: his coauthor. But the book, goes in and
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: talks all about dad's experiences growing up in
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: the family farm, being, the first of his
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: family to go to college, getting into the
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: air force, f eighty four pilot, getting recruited
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: by the CIA for the u two program,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: and then the shoot down, the interrogation, the
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: trial, the the fallout of it, as well
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: as what he did when he came home.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: So that's dad's book. It's a primary source,
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: and it is available both on my website
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: at gary powers dot com, or through Barnes
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: and Noble and Amazon and things like that.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: Now as far as my background, for twenty
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: five plus years, I ran chambers of commerce
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: associations. I founded a cold war museum in
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six to honor veterans, preserve history,
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: and educate kids on this time period. The
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: museum is located at Vint Hill, Virginia, forty
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: five miles west of Washington, DC. It is
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: open on the weekends, staffed by volunteers, midweek
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: by appointment. We have items from the u
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: two incident, of course. We have items from
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: the SR seventy one program, spy satellite programs,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: the USS Liberty incident, the USS Pueblo incident,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: the candy bomber, Gail Halvorsen from the Berlin
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Airlift. We have the largest collection of civil
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: defense items in America having saved and salvaged
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: the civil defense headquarters for Washington DC back
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: thirty years ago. We have flags, banners, regalia,
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: uniforms from Eastern Bloc countries, Western Bloc countries
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: that tell the international history of cold war...
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Of the cold war. More information online at
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: cold war dot org. So that is what
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: I have been volunteering for for many, many
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: years. I'm the current chairman again after taking
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: a twelve year break. Over the last twelve
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: years... Oh, go ahead.
• 14:05
  Speaker 0: Do you... I I got... I'm I'm not
• 14:07
  Speaker 0: political, but do you feel with what that
• 14:11
  Speaker 0: museum represents that we're we're in a strange
• 14:15
  Speaker 0: time in in twenty twenty six with relevance
• 14:19
  Speaker 0: of people understanding the Cold War or communism
• 14:23
  Speaker 0: or or...
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: And I
• 14:24
  Speaker 0: don't wanna get political. You know, I'm not...
• 14:25
  Speaker 0: I don't wanna point fingers. I just... You
• 14:28
  Speaker 0: kind of lived it through your father. I
• 14:31
  Speaker 0: I kind of lived it as a kid
• 14:32
  Speaker 0: where we did the duck under the desk
• 14:34
  Speaker 0: thing. You know?
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 14:36
  Speaker 0: Do you feel like people just aren't paying
• 14:38
  Speaker 0: attention to some history?
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: I think, that enough time has gone by,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: that, kids today growing up were not born
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: during the Cold War. They have no concept
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: of what it was like to duck under
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: desks for duck and cover drills. They have
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: no idea what it was like for senator
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Joe McCarthy in the McCarthy era to, try
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: to out Soviet spies in the American government,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: FBI, with Hoover and all he did to
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: help capture spies in the US in the
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Cold War time period. Kids today, I believe,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: are not being taught adequately in the school
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: systems about, the evils of communism and socialism.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: If you look at Venezuela, a prime example
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: of what happened there when a dictator comes
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: into power and socializes all the resources, and
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: then after he gets ousted a few months
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: ago, the country is getting back on its
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: feet. There's more businesses that are opening. They're
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: starting to open up tourism channels, and democracy
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: is flourishing. So kids today think, oh, everybody's
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: equal. Everybody should have a fair chance. Oh,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: everybody deserves this. No. You gotta work your
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: butt off. Yeah. It just can't be handed
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: to you. And a lot of kids are
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: entitled. They think, oh, well, I deserve this.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: No. No. No. No. No. From the very,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: early age of my son who just graduated
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: from, James Madison University with his master's in
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: psychology, I've told him from the... From... As
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: soon as he could comprehend stuff, life is
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: not fair. If you don't work hard for
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: what you wanna get, someone else is gonna
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: do it. You always have to make the
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: best effort to get ahead in life and
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: don't rely on anybody else. You have to
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: rely on yourself.
• 16:23
  Speaker 0: So Yeah. My
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: personal opinions there.
• 16:25
  Speaker 0: Yeah. So you got the museum. You you
• 16:29
  Speaker 0: tour a lot as Oh, yeah.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. To get information on me and what
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: I'm doing now, the last twelve years, I
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: have founded gary powers dot com. Well, gosh.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: About sixteen years now. I founded Gary Powers
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: dot com approximately two thousand ten. And I
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: wanted to do that so I could lecture,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: write, and teach on Cold War history. What
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: I discovered in doing talks to high school
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: students in Northern Virginia for many years is
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: that the kids didn't know anything about the
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Cold War. They often thought that the u
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: two incident had something to do with the
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: u two rock band. And so it just...
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: Something had to be done. I also realized
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: that our cold war veterans were not being
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: honored for their sacrifices and what they did
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: to win the cold war back in between
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: forty five and ninety one. So in order
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: to honor cold war veterans, preserve cold war
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: history, and educate students, I founded the museum
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety six. Then in two thousand
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: ten, I broke off on my own. I
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: founded Gary Powers dot com so I could
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: lecture, write, and teach cold war history. You
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: can go to my website at Gary Powers
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: dot com. You can see under the events
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: tab all the lectures I give throughout the
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: year around internationally. I usually am on the
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: road a hundred plus days a year giving
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: talks. I just, in July, gave a talk
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: in Alaska, in, of course, Virginia, Kansas, Chicago,
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Oshkosh, Wisconsin, the big fly in, Goodfellow Air
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Force Base in Texas, and Arlington, Texas to
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: the Lockheed, plant down there that makes the
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: f one thirty fives. So in July, I
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: gave, some over, you know, probably fifteen plus
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: lectures just in July alone. But my event
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: schedule is online. I'm always looking for venues
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: that will, that have an interest in, having
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: me... Hosting me for a Cold War talk.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: I can talk about letters from a Soviet
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: prison that are my dad's letters and journal
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: that he kept while incarcerated. I can talk
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: about my next book, Spy Pilot, Francis Gary
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Powers, the u two incident and a controversial
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: cold war legacy. I talk about cold war
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Virginia or cold war California as well as,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: the end of World War two and the
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: origins of the cold war. So I have
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: multiple talks that I can give for one
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: hour to different groups around the country. They
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: can reach me through my website, Gary Powers
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: dot com, by clicking on the contact tab.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Now I also have books for sale. My
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: books include letters from a Soviet prison, spy
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: pilot, enemy territory, which is a graphic novel,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: the Berlin Airlift, which is a graphic novel.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: Then I also have Cold War Virginia, Cold
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: War California, and Protecting America Cold War Defensive
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: Sites. That last book is basically a National
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Park Service report. I was the chairman for
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: this committee that identified Cold War sites around
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: the country for preservation. This is the report
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: that was published... That I had published. So
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: those are my books. Yeah. I also run
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: spy tours of Washington DC and international cold
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: war espionage tours. More information on these tours
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: can be found online at spy tour dot
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: com. My next public international tour is October
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty seven, and we'll be going to
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: sites, museums, drop points, other clandestine locations, talking
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: about World War two history, cold war history,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: and espionage in these countries of England, France,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Belgium, and Germany. And, again, more information online
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: at spy tour dot com. So that is,
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: what I'm doing now.
• 20:22
  Speaker 0: Now do you, do you ever go to
• 20:26
  Speaker 0: the bridge, and, and that leads me to
• 20:29
  Speaker 0: the question of when they did the movie
• 20:31
  Speaker 0: Bridges of Spies, which kind of gave younger
• 20:35
  Speaker 0: generation some... You know, it's a Hollywood version
• 20:38
  Speaker 0: of the history. Let's be honest. It's Hollywood.
• 20:41
  Speaker 0: Spielberg, Tom Hanks. Were you consulted? Did you
• 20:44
  Speaker 0: go on set? Did you meet him? What
• 20:46
  Speaker 0: was that experience like?
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. It was a great experience. I
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: reached out to them, because I heard that
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: they're gonna do this movie that will portray
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: my father. We wanted to express the Powers
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: family's concerns. If they base it off the,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: misinformation, the fake news of the time, they'll
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: paint dad's image in a negative light. If
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: they base it off
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: the declassified information
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: that's come to surface the last fifty years,
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: they'll paint them as a hero to our
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: country. So I reach out to them by
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: an... Not anonymous, a unsolicited email. I got
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: a phone call from their producer, Mark Platt.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Mark and I talked for an hour. At
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: the end of the conversation, he basically says,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: would you like to be a consultant? You
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: know a lot about the u two incident,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Cold War history, and your dad. So I
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: signed on as a consultant, was, on set
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: in New York City for the, one of
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: the scenes of the Supreme Court. I was
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: on set at Beale Air Force Base in
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Southern California, which is home to the YouTube
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: program currently. I answered questions. I, gave them
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: some feedback about my father, what he went
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: through, described how he was shot down. And,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: it was a wonderful, wonderful experience to work
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: with Spielberg, Tom Hanks, the makeup people, the
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: hairstylist, the prop people, the sound engineers. It
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: was just really cool to see how a
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: movie is made from behind the scenes.
• 22:06
  Speaker 0: Yeah. There's a lot more goes into it.
• 22:08
  Speaker 0: I've I've was in the film and TV
• 22:09
  Speaker 0: business for thirty five plus years before I've
• 22:11
  Speaker 0: started doing the podcast. And you try to
• 22:13
  Speaker 0: explain to people, it's like it's like a
• 22:16
  Speaker 0: small movie is like building a a cabin,
• 22:18
  Speaker 0: then you go up to a duplex and
• 22:20
  Speaker 0: a house and a, you know, a marvel
• 22:22
  Speaker 0: is a skyscraper. You know? It's all that's
• 22:24
  Speaker 0: involved. I have... Here's a a strange question
• 22:28
  Speaker 0: I always love to ask my guests and
• 22:31
  Speaker 0: kinda where you explain where you grew up
• 22:33
  Speaker 0: kinda gives me know how you may answer,
• 22:35
  Speaker 0: but what did your childhood smell like?
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Uh-huh. Smell as in olfactory. Yes. Cigarette smoke.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Mom was a a a a chronic smoker.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: So the house always smelled of cigarettes. Dad
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: did smoke cigarettes back in the fifties and
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: sixties, but he ended up giving it up
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: at one point in time after he got
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: married to my mom, and mom just never
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: gave it up. And, also, we grew up
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: in Southern California, so we had orange trees
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: in the backyard. So I remember orange tree
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: smells and peach tree smells and apricot tree
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: smells, things like that. When I would fly
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: with my dad, there's always that aviation fuel
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: smell there at the airports since... And and
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: the the smell of the cockpit of the
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: airplane when I would go up and ride
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: with them. So those are the type of
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: smells I remember as a kid.
• 23:30
  Speaker 0: I I I was thinking aviation fuel would
• 23:32
  Speaker 0: be one of them just because of being
• 23:34
  Speaker 0: so close to the airport. And so orange
• 23:36
  Speaker 0: blossom is probably one of my favorite smells.
• 23:39
  Speaker 0: When when... I spent twenty years in LA,
• 23:43
  Speaker 0: mid eighties through early two thousands, and there
• 23:47
  Speaker 0: were a couple neighbors and where they were,
• 23:48
  Speaker 0: you know, just people just had orange trees.
• 23:50
  Speaker 0: Man, I'd love walking out just smelling that
• 23:52
  Speaker 0: orange blossom. That is... That's such a great
• 23:54
  Speaker 0: great scent. Is there a question I did
• 24:00
  Speaker 0: not ask you or that people kinda tend
• 24:03
  Speaker 0: to to not ask that you could kinda
• 24:04
  Speaker 0: wish someone would just ask me this or,
• 24:07
  Speaker 0: why didn't he ask me that? Is there
• 24:08
  Speaker 0: something I didn't ask you or there that
• 24:10
  Speaker 0: you wanna talk about?
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Off hand. I mean, we we... I gave
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: a quick overview of the u two incident
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: and the dad's involvement and what I'm doing
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: now to preserve cold war history. I'm a
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: cold war veterans. There is one detail that
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: does often come up during my talks. People
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: have a question in regards to, why my
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: father did not kill himself, instead of being
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: caught by the Soviets. And, basically, back in
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: the fifties when the CIA pilots were flying
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: these flights, he was told to explain to
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: them, if you're caught, you will be tortured.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Here is a way to alleviate the pain
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: and suffering. A small, pin dipped in poison,
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: hidden in a hollowed out silver dollar worn
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: around the pilot's neck as a good luck
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: charm. Dad takes this device on this mission.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: He gets shot down. He looks at the
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: device when he's parachuting to the ground. He
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: says the silver dollar is a really bad
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: hiding place, takes the pin out, throws the
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: dollar away, puts the pin that's covered in
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: a sheath in his flight suit pocket. On
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: the third strip search, the Soviets find the
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: device. My father goes, oh, be very careful
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: of that. He does not wanna have a
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: murder conviction on top of an espionage conviction.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: He is already in enough trouble. The Soviets
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: tested on a dog. The dog dies in
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: twenty seconds. The poison shuts down the central
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: nervous system. So had the pilot injected himself
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: with this pin, he would have died from
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: lack of oxygen. Now the cover story was
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: that a unarmed weather research plane accidentally strayed
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: across the border after the pilot had radioed
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: trouble with his oxygen equipment. Cover story says
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: lack of oxygen, dead pilot, having injected himself,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: can't breathe, plausible deniability. But as everybody's probably
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: aware, the right hand of the government doesn't
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: always know what the left hand is doing.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: The CIA assure president Eisenhower that no pilot
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: will live through a shoot down. They don't
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: tell the pilots that. They give them a
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: survival pack. The cover story. No one tells
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: the pilots what the cover story is. And
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: the poison tipped pin, optional to take, optional
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: to use at the pilot's discretion in the
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: event of torture, not in the event of
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: capture. And this has all been documented now
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: since the declassification files have come to to
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: the surface. So that's one question that often
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: people will ask is, you know, why did
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Depp have this, quote, unquote, suicide device with
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: him on this mission?
• 26:43
  Speaker 0: That, it's... I was thinking about that earlier,
• 26:46
  Speaker 0: and I was like, well, okay. How do
• 26:47
  Speaker 0: you bring that question up? Why did your
• 26:48
  Speaker 0: dad not kill himself? So I appreciate you
• 26:51
  Speaker 0: saving me the, you know, the the hard
• 26:53
  Speaker 0: question. I'm I'm a wuss, man. I don't
• 26:55
  Speaker 0: like hard questions.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Plus, had he killed himself, I wouldn't be
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: here.
• 26:59
  Speaker 0: Exactly. We wouldn't be having this conversation. Duh.
• 27:01
  Speaker 0: So, Gary, I thank you for your time
• 27:04
  Speaker 0: today. Again, we're gonna put all your websites
• 27:07
  Speaker 0: and everything in the show notes, but you've
• 27:08
  Speaker 0: mentioned them a lot. We are grateful for
• 27:11
  Speaker 0: your time. We're grateful for the lessons we
• 27:13
  Speaker 0: learned from your father and the country that...
• 27:15
  Speaker 0: I... I'm grateful for the country I live
• 27:17
  Speaker 0: in. And, you know, I only got a
• 27:21
  Speaker 0: couple more years, centuries, decades. I don't know
• 27:24
  Speaker 0: what the word is. You know? So hopefully,
• 27:26
  Speaker 0: it stays all good. But, Gary, thank you
• 27:28
  Speaker 0: for your time, and, we look forward to
• 27:30
  Speaker 0: chatting again in the future.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Alright, Chip. Thanks for having me on. Anytime,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: just let me know.
• 27:35
  Speaker 0: Alright, Gary. Thank you. Wow. That was a
• 27:38
  Speaker 0: great episode for me. I love history and
• 27:40
  Speaker 0: that that period I remember as a as
• 27:42
  Speaker 0: a kid, you know, we were building model
• 27:44
  Speaker 0: planes. We're building the YouTube and and the,
• 27:47
  Speaker 0: Blackbird, stuff like that. Anyway, Gary, it was
• 27:50
  Speaker 0: a pleasure having Gary. Look up his websites.
• 27:52
  Speaker 0: Look up his his touring schedule. Go see
• 27:56
  Speaker 0: him. I'm gonna look and see if he
• 27:58
  Speaker 0: ever... If he's ever close to where I
• 27:59
  Speaker 0: am. If he's ever in San Antonio, maybe
• 28:00
  Speaker 0: we'll have another interview with him here in
• 28:03
  Speaker 0: the studio. Speaking of the studio, I wanna
• 28:05
  Speaker 0: thank Nelco Comics, which is a live active
• 28:09
  Speaker 0: comic book shop here in San Antonio. If
• 28:11
  Speaker 0: you're looking for a comic book, hey. Come
• 28:13
  Speaker 0: by. Say, hey. Check him out online. If
• 28:15
  Speaker 0: you're in town, reach out to me at
• 28:17
  Speaker 0: podcast relatively... No. Yes. Podcast relatively famous at
• 28:22
  Speaker 0: g mail dot com. Podcast relatively famous at
• 28:24
  Speaker 0: g mail dot com. I'll pop by the
• 28:27
  Speaker 0: comic book shop and say hi. If you
• 28:29
  Speaker 0: happen to be related to someone famous or
• 28:31
  Speaker 0: know someone related to someone famous who would
• 28:33
  Speaker 0: make a great guest, because I'm always looking
• 28:34
  Speaker 0: for guests, again, reach out to me at
• 28:36
  Speaker 0: podcast relatively famous at g mail dot com.
• 28:39
  Speaker 0: That's podcast relatively famous at g mail dot
• 28:41
  Speaker 0: com. Thanks, Nelco Media. Thank you, the viewer,
• 28:44
  Speaker 0: the listener. I'm humbled that you spend your
• 28:46
  Speaker 0: time with us, and we're grateful for you.
• 28:48
  Speaker 0: And we ask that you help us grow,
• 28:50
  Speaker 0: share Gary's episode, share all the episodes. My
• 28:52
  Speaker 0: goal is to get half a million YouTube
• 28:55
  Speaker 0: followers in the next two years, three years.
• 28:58
  Speaker 0: So help us out. Anyway, thank you.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to relatively famous with Chip
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: White. Please like and subscribe to Relatively Famous