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The Truth Movement is a Cult | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: H h. My name is Jim.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: This is germ Warfare, the Battle of Ideas Jake Fern,
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: thank you for joining me in the trenches.
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, is that how you say it? As a
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: as a as a battle?
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean that's that's my whole thing. That's
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: my whole thing, my whole male sticker is the battle
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: of ideas, warfare, information war trenches. I like all those metaphors.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: They're very aggressive and militant.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: Yes, well, maybe that we could talk about it. That's
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: quite interesting, isn't it, Because because to some extent I
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: obviously agree. You know, I used to love listening to
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: Alex Jones. You know, it really inspired me, you know,
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: like I'd listened three hours a day to info Wars.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: You know, I sorry, let me jump in. I didn't.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: I didn't copy him with my whole warfare thing.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Oh no, no no, I wasn't employing that.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: No, no, no no. But I I sometimes feel like
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: I need to explain that because info Wars is massive,
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: and then suddenly I'm playing in the warfare territory. But
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: let me see. Now, have I got a book that's
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: close by? Yeah, yeah, hold on one.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Out of the void.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: So I one of so as you as you might know,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: I am also you know, I'm actually a cartoonist. I
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: started podcasting a few years ago.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Phenomenal cartoonists.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: No, no, thank you, not check. Yeah, that's the name
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: of my that's the name of my first book, during Warfare,
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: is it Showing the Right Way Around? Yeah? Now this
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: was in twenty twelve. This is way before I knew
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: about Alex Jones. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I just named
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: my entire thing after my first book.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Right. Where did Germ come from? Then? I know, because
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: it's Jeremy, but.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Just a nickname that I was given and I was in.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: School mate it's called you. Yeah, okay.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: It just so happened that it had worked quite nicely
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: during the COVID thing with Germ and Germ with the
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: g and that whole thing.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's perfect. But yeah, no, I wasn't sorry.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: I didn't mean to imply that there was any kind
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: of ripping anyone off with with I mean, it's a
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: common it's a common.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Theme, isn't it. You know, And a lot of people.
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: Use it and enjoy it, and it's it's it's a
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: way of navigating where we're at in terms of a
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: battle as a as a metaphor, and I think there's
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: truth to that. We are obviously in a battle, and
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: then some people say, well, it's a spiritual battle.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: I suppose.
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: I one thing recently, I've been going through a stuff
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: with people making accusations and about.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Me just every welcome to the club.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: It's like as soon as you as soon as you
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: do anything, you know, people start attacking you.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: And it's been so I have tried to use that.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: As a training ground for my own kind of I
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: suppose what you might call spiritual practice. And I just
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: I find that I'm I find that I'm nactually trying
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: to trying to pull away perhaps from the idea of
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: of battling and fighting.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, who at the moment why?
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: Because I find it. I find it. It sort of
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: destroys me a bit. I get caught up in it.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I know what you mean. Sorry, yeah, I'm
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: jumping in, but I know exactly do you mean it's
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: very dark?
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: No?
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: No, it's good to jump in. I suppose there's ways,
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: there's ways of fighting, and there's like it's very important when
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: we when we're discussing things to sort of define terms.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: And I find this in life generally. This is and
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: we can talk about critical thinking and and all that
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: in a minute. But you know, again, so we're having
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: a discussion now about war, and neither have actually defined
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: what we how we understand that word, you know, and
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: that can mean. So we could be we could spend
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: the next half hour arguing, Not that we will, I
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: don't mean it like that, but we could. We could
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: theoretically spend half an hour arguing over whether we're in
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: a war or not, and and each of us have
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: a different meaning in our head of what a war is.
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: And then at the end of it, we've been none
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: the wiser, you know, and we've just just wasted half
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: an hour, and when actually we've probably been in agreement.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I'm not talking about.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: Specifically this this this exchange, but you know this happens
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: so often, so uh.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: Go on, Well I can I can. I can tell
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: you very easyly what I mean when I say war.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: It's just really it's the sharpening of the sword. You
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: have an idea, and I have an idea, and I'm
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: trying to find where, let's say, the truth of that
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: idea lies. And and the only way we can do
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: that is too is to have a boxing match, because
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: that's how we sharpen that that blade.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: Well, that's clarified things quite a lot, isn't it, Because
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't disagree with that.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: But then but then you throw in the boxing match.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: So it's like, well, using metaphors interesting metaphors, aren't they?
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: And in some ways, I they're accurate because because it
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: can be painful, uh and and and boxing can be
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: a noble sport.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Actually, Jake, no, sorry, hold on, I think you're right.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: I think maybe the boxing metaphor is wrong because I
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at my my show, which
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: I know you have looked at, I don't really engage
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: in boxing matches. That's not my style. I'm not I'm
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: not into I'm not into sort of blood sport kind
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: of idea battles. I'm into trying to figure out what
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: other people are saying. Because everybody believes that they're right,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: that they have the right side of history, and nobody
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: wakes up in the morning thinking, well, I'm going to
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: be on the wrong side of history today. And it's
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: because of that. It's that humility in wanting to hear
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: what somebody else is saying, and is their idea better
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: than mine, and that's precisely why I changed my position.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: So it's not really a boxing match.
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: Okay, but yeah, that's well, I'd agree with that completely.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: You know. I think the humility thing is really important.
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: We always have to be flexible. And you're right, no
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: one no one wakes up in the morning and thinks
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: I'm going to be a psychopath today or I'm going
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: to Yeah, well I don't think so anyway. I mean, well,
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: I just but I used to listen to a guy
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: called Patrick Timpono who had a show in America called
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: One Radio Network, and it was brilliant.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: He old school guy.
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: From Texas, and he used to say everyone he was
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: he was awake to everything, you know. He added some
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: pretty crazy guests on there. It was primarily kind of
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: natural health stuff. There's a whole archive if anyone's interested,
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: if you go to One Radio Networks, years of great information.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: He used to have a woman called Jennifer Daniels, doctor
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: Jennifer Daniels, who does the turpentine protocol.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: There's a whole load of natural stuff.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: Anyway, he always used to say everyone is doing the
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: best that they can, and he would extend that to
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: you know, I agree the worst kind of Yeah, you know.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: Bill Gates. I don't think Bill Gates wakes up thinking
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: I'm going to actually try and harm the world. I
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: fundamentally disagree with his worldview, right, But I don't think
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: he wakes up thinking that he's evil. No, I think
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: he wakes up thinking genuinely that he's going to make
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: the world a better place.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: I think you're probably right, And I think having that
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: perspective is probably what differentiates you from a lot of
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: so called truthers, because what I'm what I see is
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: a lot of paranoia and a lot of misunder well,
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: I think it's misunderstanding what lack of nuance who the
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: enemy is or what we're what we're actually fighting against. Yeah,
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: lack of nuance. Yeah, yeah, And that isn't helpful if we're,
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: like to say, if we're if we're trying to find
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: out exactly what's going on, if we're trying to find
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: truth whatever that means. And I know you read that
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: you wrote something interesting about truth. It will come to me,
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: what did he write the other day? It's not so
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: much you said you you said, it's.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: It's not so much about the truth it's also about winning.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Right. That was interesting. That kind of stuck in my
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: in my mind, I.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: Could die, Can I can I explain that?
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, that'd be helpful. Yeah yeah.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: So let's say you are in a in a war.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: You're on the front line, you're a soldier, and you
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: know the truth about the enemy and what's happening on
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: the other side of that horizon. But then you get killed.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: Now what, you had the truth, but it didn't help.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: You needed to have the truth and still win that battle.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Winning is so in other words, truth is necessary, but
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: it's not sufficient. Yeah right, Yeah, there's no point in
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: just there's no point in just doom scrolling and building
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: up knowledge. Yeah.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, no, I agree with that completely. Yeah, yeah, true.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: I suppose you take that to the ultimate then I
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: think truth is in itself what wins, what wins the battle.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: So let me give you. I'll give you a real
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: life example. So I keep jumping and I apologize.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: It's good, it's good, it's good.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: So if you had asked me six years ago, should
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: my child be vaccinated at birth? I would have said
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: absolutely right. My child, thankfully was not born six years
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: six years ago, my child was born two years ago, right,
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: and yeah, thank you, And I got another one on
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: the way.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, so that's why you're not sure whether you're coming over?
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: Is that right? In September.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: I'm going to cut this part out because I'm not
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: gonna talk about that.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: So uh.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: All right, So okay, so I'm saying that, so my
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: child was Yeah, so my child was born two years ago.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: He's not vaccinated. He didn't even get a betterman, k now. Yes,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: a real life example of the truth quote unquote. It
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: came to be that I realized that vaccinating babies at
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: birth was not the best thing, right.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Now I consider that information and do nothing with it,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: and then my child gets born and saw gets vaccinated.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: But I still know the truth.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: I actually acted on it. My wife and I act
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: on and said, hang on, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're going
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: to do something with that information. That's winning that.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, now that's that makes sense. I totally agree with that.
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: It's it's the consequences, isn't it.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: It's the action. Yeah, there's no point. I think a
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: lot of people just yeah, I agree.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of people think that just having
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: knowledge is somehow an end. Yeah, it's of course it's not. Yeah,
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: it's I think I think on a kind of deeper Yeah,
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: on a sort of deeper spiritual level, the more truth
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: that you have in your life, the better life you have,
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: and the better life everyone around you has. So there's
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: kind of levels of truth, aren't that. There's the truth
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: of the external world, and then there's a there's another
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: level of truth, which is the truth of our kind
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: of internal world, I suppose, which is just as important.
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: And if that's ignored, then that's when I think you
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: get an imbalance, and you get you get people who
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: are just looking out, always looking out, and and then
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: that's when the paranoia sets in.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: I think, because it's.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Unbalanced, paranoia is not necessarily a bad thing. So I
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: had John McAfee on my show a couple of times
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: a few ago before he was Epstein, and he said
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: to me, yeah, they are very interesting. And he said
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: to me that paranoia is what led him to creating
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: the software antivirus sorry, the antivirus software. And it turned
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: out to be a good call because you get computer viruses. Yeah,
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: that was based on that was based on paranoid, that's
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: what he said.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: But yeah, but was it paranoia or was it just
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: in sight?
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, okay, well I suppose yeah, he might.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Have called it paranoia. But if it's accurate, then.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Well okay, yes. Another example, So I live in South Africa.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: It's a very very dangerous country. Am I paranoid by
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: having guns and our walls and security and all that
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: kind of stuff, even though broken into my home?
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: Okay?
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: So well this is another example of defining terms, isn't it.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: So my definition of paranoia is is is basically acting
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: on information that is not verified, that is not accurate.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: It is basically living in a sort of fantasy world
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: where your actions aren't based on reality. Whereas perhaps the
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: definition of paranoia you're using is just high alert, you know,
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: it's like just actually accurate, you know, and worst case
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: scenario thinking. But I don't call that paranoid. That's not
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: what I mean by paranoid. So yeah, obviously you can
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: be thinking, well, obviously we don't know what's going on,
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: so we have to we have to make some kind
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: of informed guess is what's going on? And you have
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: a range of possibilities, some of them are worse than others.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: If you contemplate that possibility, that's that's not what I'm
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: calling paranoia. What I'm calling paranoia is the kind of
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: indulgence in bad thinking, allowing allowing your kind of worst
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: instincts to take over inaccurate thinking. So that's that's kind
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: of what I mean by paranoia. So if you're externalizing
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: everything and you think, you think that, if you're not
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: working on yourself, if you're not working on the inner truth,
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: you're just looking at what you think is true out there,
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: there's an imbalance, and that to.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Me leads to.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: A lack of a lack of responsibility. So you're not
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: taking responsibility, you're just looking at at kind of you
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: create in a kind of fantasy world where you're a victim.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: And that's what I see quite a bit with people
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: who are looking at all this stuff. I suppose I've
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: got a certain thing I've got, you know, I've got
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: a certain kind of situation in mind, because there's a
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: whole I don't know, if you know Bob Moran, obviously
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: you knows Bob's been been recently had the finger pointed
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: at him.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: And it'd the ticky or something.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so that's kind of doing the rounds and
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: you know it.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: It sparked something in me when I read the article.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: It's sort of like a hit.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Piece Francis O'Neill or something.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: And.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: I just thought there was so there's so much in
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: there that was that was just just kind of fantasy
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: really and toxic and toxic. Yeah, and and and I
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: suppose this is this is where I think where we
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: need to be careful.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Gone, gone, jumped in.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: No, No, I'm I'm completely on the same page as you.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: I I find weird. You get column actually, as you
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: probably know since you bought it, you get column. And
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: I want I want to talk about that in a moment. Also,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: I have been under attacks, not from necessarily people who
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: are not on our side, but people on our side.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: There is a lot of friendly fire going on, and
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: it's something that really bothers me. What this Bob more
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: N example is exactly that it's I don't know what's
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: going on, if if if it's if it's deliberate, or
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: if it's well intentioned or well meaning, but why are
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: people on the same side firing bullets at one another.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: I've just because I've just lost you, I've just lost
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: your visual Oh really, mm hmm, I've got a little
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: cat wagging its tail on seck. Do you you're back?
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not sure they are on the on the
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: same side, you know, I don't I don't even know
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: what that means. Again, again, we're sort of going back
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: to the war metaphor, because you know, some someone who
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: thinks they're on the same side, but they're not doing
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: the inner work and they're you know, they could just
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: be agents of chaos without even realizing it, and they're
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: actually doing harm.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: You know, if you're if you're if you're.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: Creating an environment where you know, people aren't are being
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: led down paths because they haven't got the tools, because
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: because people haven't got critical you know general. You know,
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: this sounds might sound harsh, but a lot of people
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: in the movement, although there might be awake, whatever that means,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: they've seen through, they've seen through the agenda. They they
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: they have a sense of sovereignty. But but their critical
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: thinking skills aren't necessarily that great. So yeah, ultimately everyone's
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: responsible for.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Where they are at.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: But if you have people who are muddy in the waters,
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: not necessarily I'm not pointing the controlled up finger because
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: I find that just a kind of endless spiral down,
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: but just just be just through ego, lack of self awareness,
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: lack of critical thinking, paranoid things.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, if if, if they're if they're dragging people down,
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: they're not on they're not on my side. They're not
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: they're not on the same side as they're not in
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: the trenches with me, like, because they're just they're just
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: creating k and they're not they're not acting honorably and
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: they're not acting out of a sincere search for truth,
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: even though they might seem to be, and they might
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: say the right things, and they might know that nine
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: eleven was in inside job, and they might you know,
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: whatever it might be.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: They know that COVID was a scam, they know all
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: these things.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I've come to I've come to the conclusion that
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: what you're referring to is it's effectively no different to
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: what we were seeing in the late teens with the
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: hashtag black Lives Matter, hashtag me too. It's all of
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: these kind of woke cultural wars or culture wars rather,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: in which it's not about getting to the truth, it's
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: about playing games of power. It's flexing muscles. Yeah, identity,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: it's identity wars. Yeah, it's I know better than you. Yes,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: and therefore I'm going to call you out. It's trying
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: to it's trying to monopolize truth.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: And yet when you when you criticize it, what I
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: have come back is, oh, no, you know, you're now
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: trying to control the narrative. So that's what you know.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: So I you point out the lack of accuracy or
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: you know, you point out certain psychological traits with these people,
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: and then and then all that does is feed the paranoia,
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: and they give them another weapon too, you know.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: And it's this endless and it's binary. It's it's constant
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: binary thinking. There's no there's no understanding of complex systems
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: on nurance. Yeah, you see this with the no virus stuff. Also. Now,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: I am sympathetic to their general arguments, but the way
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: in which that they tend to approach any kind of
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: discourse is very aggressive, antagonistic. Oh oh, your guest believes
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: the viruses. I can't trust anything, he says, How do
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: you arrive at that?
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, this is really what's on my mind at
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: the moment, and I think this is this is more
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: for me, you know, So when I do the thousand
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: words things. This is more of the stuff that I
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: talk about because I think the details I'm not so
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: drawn to at the moment, But this psychology is just
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: so important to me. Why does this, why does this
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: kind of thing happen constantly?
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: So?
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: Uh, I think, I think, what what? What people do?
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: It goes it goes back to tribal thinking, like like
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: you said, it's this binary idea you so that leads
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: to a whole load of conclusions. Then so you start
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: talking about guilt by association just because someone is connected
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: to someone, and what what what the opposite of that is?
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: What the what true critical thinking is is evaluating each
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: action on its own merit. So for example, with the
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: with with this Bob Moran hit piece, there's a whole
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: load of kind of I don't even know if i'd
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: call it circumstantial evidence, but it's just gump that's thrown
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: out there, Like for example, his name is being written
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: in capital letters, is a free Masonic reference to the
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: number thirty three and one oh one in you know,
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: superposed on each other like one. I don't know if
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: you can picture it, yes, you know, And that's just
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: kind of thrown out that you.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Just made a Masonic sign with your hand. By the
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: way you're going to you're going to get accused.
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: Also, I'm trying to signal to those out there who
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: are you know, on the score, you.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Know, And then that's just kind of thrown out there.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: But what wasn't in that article was a single accusation
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: of anything that Bob's done wrong.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: That's exactly what happened to me. I don't know if
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: you saw that, that whole series of hit pieces about
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: me when I went to China by us. Yeah, I'm
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: a four article series, doesn't it. Your accusations just just questions, bro,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: I'm just asking questions.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is it, just asking questions.
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: And we should be allowed to ask questions, shouldn't we?
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: You know, yes, of course ask the questions. But you know,
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: I said this to someone, I said, if you know,
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: if I just pointed at someone, are you a pedophile?
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: I'm just asking questions, you know, and.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: His family are there?
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and then well, you know, I'm just asking questions.
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: Are you were you looking at that child in a
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: in a weird way that you know, like that's just
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: a question. But his family are there, and I'm just
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: I'm just paranoid and I'm just making it up.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: But I'm just asking questions.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: Is that and if someone says, have you got any evidence,
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: I'm just asking questions, right, Well, he you know, and
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: this is.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Because what is the purpose? Like, what is the intent?
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: What is the goal? What is the end game?
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: That's so that's so pertinent because what is so let's
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: let's say we've.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: With and by the way, sorry, David Hues did make
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: an accusation. He in his very first piece, and I
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: only read the first two pieces because they were so
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: terrible that I didn't bother going any further. But he's
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: opening claim about my visa was completely wrong, right, I
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: mean he didn't even he didn't even get the basics right, right.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: So his claims and his quote unquote questions slash accusations
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: are all just nonsense.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're built on a false premise and the
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: you know, the kind of journalism that that's been put
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: out there by these people. I can't speak so much
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: for the Davities because I don't know the details, but
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: I'm quite I'm more involved in the in the Bob thing,
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: so I can I can.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know nothing about Ed the Tiki. I don't
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: even know who that is.
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: I I not met Ed, but I'm in Brighton in
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: the UK and he was in Brighton and we have
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: mutual friends, so I knew of him.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Only after he died.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: I've never heard of him, but my mate who's in
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: the band that I'm in, used to know him, and
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: you know, I've met people who met him since, and
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: he had said that The key aspect of it, I think,
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: really that is that he he was quite aggressive towards
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: people who supported the Lucy Connolly story, right, And apparently
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: it's it's blindingly obvious that the Lucy Connolly story is
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: some kind of sye up. So I'm not even going
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: to get into that. But let's let's assume it is
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: a sigh up. He didn't think it was a syge up, right,
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: so he bought it. He took it on face value.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: So therefore he's an agent. And therefore Bob who did
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: this cartoon, who quite likes some of his tweets and
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: was a sort of friend of his, also is an agent,
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: you know, or or dodgy you know.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: And this is the kind of thinking. It's just there's
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: no there's no.
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: So what happened is you have a premise and then
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: you try and find evidence to back it up. It's
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: not the other round. You don't see evidence. So there's no,
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: like I said, at no point is Bob accused of
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: actually doing anything wrong, you know. So there's no like, oh,
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: Bob was caught stealing money, or Bob was caught with
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: a minor, or Bob was caught lying about something.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: It's no.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: Bob did a cartoon for someone who he quite respected,
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: who maybe didn't believe that Lucy Connelly was a sign up. Now,
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: this like how many steps removed from actually doing something
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: wrong for a to kind of just dismiss someone. So
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: we're going to dismiss everything that he's done, all the
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: wonderful cartoons.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Something that I talk all the time about. It's what
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: I refer to as a purity test. Yeah yeah, I hate,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: hate hate purity tests.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and yeah yeah, because it's so.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: It's so binary, it's so binary, but it's also so
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: low like it's it's so hum inhuman in a way.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: Because let's take Bob for as an example, everything that
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: he's done, all that.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: The hearts that he's touched with his art. You know.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, you're a brilliant cartoonist as well, so you
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: know how powerful a cartoon can be. And and and
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: Bob happened to just be in the you know that
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: time and place. He was there and he expressed what's
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: millions of people were feeling, and he brought them comfort,
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: sat tears of you know joy. It's just those cartoons
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: captured a real moment. But we're gonna, we're gonna, we're
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: gonna ship.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: On that completely.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: We're just gonna we're just gonna sully that we're gonna
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: say all that is just can't even look at those
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: cartoons now that that guy's everything he did is just worthless.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: But this is this is the way, this is the
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: way cults operate. Also, they isolate the isolate themselves more
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: and more and more through purity TSTs.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, and.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: The reasons why we're created that sorry, and they and
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: they create suspicion where they shouldn't be, and they create
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: enemies where they shouldn't be.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: That's that's one hundred percentury. That is one hundred percentury,
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: and that is loose farming. And that's what they're doing.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: They are loose farmers. But they don't even know it.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: And I found this because I got into an exchange
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: with Mary Finch's husband.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: You know Miryaf. Have you come across miry Af?
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never had on my show, but I do
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: know who she is. Yeah.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, she's obviously smart and she's done some good stuff, right.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: But I got into an exchange when I critiqued Francis's
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: article and I got into exchange with Mark Finch, her husband,
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: and I just.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Felt he wouldn't give it up. He just kept coming back.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: And then I'd sort of critique his response in a
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: very sort of clear way, and then he would avoid
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: it and just come back with another response. And it
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: was like and then there'd be a gap, and then
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: he'd come back, and then he'd come back, and I felt,
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: oh my god, I am being farmed. I really felt
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: like I'm being farmed. Whether he's conscious of it or not.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: I felt like, they want this energy, they want this now.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: It might just be and I'm not saying it's some
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: kind of dark, esoteric thing. I think the basis of
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: it is basically just you know, they want, they want,
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: they want to promote themselves, they want, they want, they
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: want the energy of surrounded. They're probably not even conscious
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: of it in that way. But I think once you've
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: got a sub stack and you've got a following and
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: you have to keep feeding it. I mean, I'm quite
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: lucky because this isn't my day job, like you know,
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: perhaps similar to you.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: You know, I paint and all.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: This is sort of the side thing, just because I'm
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: interested in it and I like talking, and you know,
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: my mind's active and I'm trying to make sense of
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: the world.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: But it's not it's not.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: It's not my my bread and butter, and I don't
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: I don't feel a need to kind of just make
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: content for the sake of it or just keep this
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: kind of machine going. And I think unfortunately, you know,
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: a lot of people get stuck in that rout where
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: they feel they have to just keep creating and creating
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: and creating, even when maybe they don't believe in what
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: they're doing. And I would say, these people, this group
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: of people have got caught in that trap.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: It's like you can see it and bring out another
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: article and this one's going to be more extreme, and
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: this one's and now I'm doubling down, and I've been
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: told you know, and I've been told, but they're all
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: trying to control me, So I'm going to get even
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: more radical. And now he's released one about Bob's brother
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: and he's like he's got into his brother's background and
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: he's you know, he's going into the film's script, script
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: that he wrote and an actress in the film, and like,
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: it's just mental.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: It's only where it goes. Though, if you just think
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: about the logical conclusion, what they're doing is exactly what
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: cults do. It's what it does, is it it cuts
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: off more and more people until they reach a point
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: where they are the arbit of truth.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's true. That is that is that is right.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: And I was I was chatting Vicki about it last
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: night and we're saying, yeah, but they kind of destroy themselves,
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: and yeah, they will, they do, but they also drag
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: people down with them, and you see this sort of
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: you know, you might have ninety percent of people thinking
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: this is just crazy, crazy, paranoid nonsense, but they find,
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: like any cult, they find.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: This hardcore group of followers.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: Who back them up, and they become they then become
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: delusional because they're not seeing things objectively. They're not seeing
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: they're not getting a slap from mom. You know, come on, John,
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: stop being a dick, you know, like just start acting
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: like that. No, but my friend thinks I'm really cool.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: You know, my friend thinks I'm really cool. And it's
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: like you get this bunch of people going yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: great great and they kind of so they create a
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: following and that just inspires them and then you just
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: get pockets of and it does. You know, I met
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: we went to Sounds Beautiful Festival last week end, which
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: is a lovely little festival. It's kind of an awake
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: festival and Dorset uh. And you know, I was chatting
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: with people there and these were people who were buying
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: into it, and I talked about Bob and Bob was
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: actually there. He turned up with chatting and one of
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: the guys who he was kind of backing up Francis
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: and saying, oh yeah, no, these are good questions. And
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: then Bob turns up and sits with us, and like
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: I think, actually like the two like him actually seeing
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: face to face what he was actually condoning, like snapped him,
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: snapped him out of it. But this is this is
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: this is it. If you if you're not in the
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: real world, if you're not actually out meeting people and
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: and and and experiencing the consequences of your actions, if
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: you're just in some little bubble and you're just writing,
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: and you know that's what they do. Yeah, yeah, and
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: you're just throwing ship out. You're just throwing ship out
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: all day long. It's it's it's just not constructive. It
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: doesn't help anyone. Like he's, like you said, your question
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: is really the right question to ask.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: What does it serve? What what does it do?
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: It doesn't do anything other than flex their own muscles.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: It's I know more than you you you are control
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: or you're a gatekeeper.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so and by the way, a piece subscribe and
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: pay me five five bucks a month.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah you know so yeah totally.
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, which is fine, which is fine, Like it's fine,
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: you know, like we'll need to support what we're doing.
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: So it's not that in and of itself. But yeah,
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: you're right that, you know, I mean I had that
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: with that, you know, yes, yeah, he basically he said, well,
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: he said you're gatekeeping, you know. He tolt me literally
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: to my face, he said, oh, well you're gatekeeping. No,
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: how am I gatekeeping? I'm giveting my opinion. So if
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: I give my opinion, I'm gatekeeping. But if you give
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: your opinion, I challenge it, I'm gatekeeping. But if you
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: give your your opinion, that's not gatekeeping, that's just your opinion.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: You know, this is like it's kind of pretty prima
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: donnerie sort of bullshit. You know, I can just throw
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: shit out there, but if you if you criticize it,
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: or critique it or analyze it in any way, you're
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: the one trying to control me. Now, I'm not trying
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: to control you. I'm not saying you can't say the
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: crap that you're saying. You say you're allowed to say
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: the crap you're saying. I get, I'm allowed to allow
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: I'm allowed to critique it and point out that this crap.
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: That doesn't mean I'm gatekeeping or that I'm controlled or
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: that I'm trying to control you. You you know, this
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: is again this is the victim mentality.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's again it said one zero, it says
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's that false dichoto me thinking, you know,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: my strategy from years ago has been a sun sue strategy,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: and that is actually I don't even know if it's
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: probably a sun sue. But Brutalie actually very eloquently said
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: it in the nineteen sixties. He said, take that which
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: is valuable, thescard that would just not create what is
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: uniquely yours. And I find that immensely valuable because I
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: can then listen to anybody, even Flash Schwab yeah and
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: crazy as it sounds, can get something valuable from him,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: and then the squad what I what I find or
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: not sorry, not invaluable, unvaluable.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know what you're saying. Yeah, because you
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: know why that is.
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: It's because you're It's because you are sovereign and you're
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: confident and you you know what you know and you
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: and you you are you are solid.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: In your core.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: If you're not solid in your core, you're constantly I
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: can't listen to that.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: I can't.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: No, I don't want to hear I can't. I don't
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: want to hear that because I'm you know, demons might
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: attack me, it might get it.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: You know, this is this is the paranoia.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: So you get the same with the you know, I've
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: got a lot of friends in Brighton who are into
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: kind of New age stuff and there's some you know,
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of truths in the New Age.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of bullshit, but there's a lot of truth.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: But you know, there's there's a lot of people who
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: are so are so paranoid they give their power away
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: so that they the idea of demons and possession and
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: attachment and all this kind of stuff. Yeah, there might
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: be some truth to it, but you are powerful. You
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: are the one who can control whether that you know
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: you have to let them in. It's the vampire myth.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: You know, you have to open the door. You have
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: to let them in. You have to let them in.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: But but the mental that's why you can let you
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: can you can listen to Schwab and you know you're
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: not going to open the door to because you're sovereign,
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: you're confident, you're you understand, you're sensitive to the human condition.
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: But when you're when you're in a state of mind
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: where you you don't feel secure. And I get why
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: people feel this because of the chaos in the world
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: and the craziness, But if you don't have a centered
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: core and you don't have a sovereign state of mind,
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: you are going to be pushing stuff away and not
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: not able to take certain things on board because you
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: think they're going to infiltrate your mind. And you know
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: that because you're not in control of it. And I
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: think this is a really key things. It's what's at
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: the heart of any cult essentially is that you don't
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: have the power, but someone else can help you to
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: achieve enlightenment. God, you know, sovereignty, whatever, it's always someone
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: out there can help you. You need someone else to
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: navigate the system for you. So people who listen to
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: this kind of paranoid nonsense by Francis, they're looking they're
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: still looking for a hero, they're looking for a savior,
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: looking for someone to tell them who they should trust.
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: Were the true sovereign. Doesn't care about that. They'll take
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: you know, they'll take each action and each occurrence separately
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: and analyze it there and then in the moment. So
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: I'll look at Claud Schwab, is that you're mete oh,
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: sorry about that. So they'll look at Claus Schwab and
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: they'll feel like they're almost like, I can't listen to him.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: I'm going to be I'm going to be conditioned, or
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: I'm going to be I'm going to be brainwashed. Or
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: I'm going to be You know, that's not that's not
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: a sovereign state of mind. You and I think I
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: don't know if it's because you know, you're an artist,
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: and I think when you're an artist, you talked about
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: nuance earlier, and part of being an artist is engaging
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: with nuance. And you can't be an artist if you're
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: if you're a black and white thinker, because like, because
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: it doesn't reflect reality. So no one, no one, no
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: one appreciates your art because because not Sorry, I should.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: Just tell them, tell them, I'll call them back later.
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: I should have put on flight I've put it on
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: flight mode now, so I'll put it on flight mode there.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: So shouldn't m sorry, you've got more editor I know
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: what it's like. You don't want more editing to do.
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: That's the painful aspect, isn't it? Doing all this? Sorry
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: lost my thread there. I think I probably probably wrap
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: that one up, but yeah, yeah, yeah, I was talking
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: about nuances.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: I was talking about art.
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: So if you're creative and you're creating art, you can't
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: engage in black and white thinking. You're looking at the
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: certleties of the human experience and and and that's what
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: creates beautiful art. It's it's a it's a mix of
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: all kinds of things, whereas the kind of paranoid mind
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: is just good bad.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, and also there's no room for for detail. James,
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: who I like, I'm friends with, but he in his
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: one subject article, openly states he doesn't care about details, right,
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: And I do. Yeah, I care about details. That's why
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: I can generate my own opinion on let's say, chemtrails
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: on viruses, or concasion on the pyramids, on aliens. I
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: could these are These are all talking points that that
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: I can have separate opinions on. I don't have to
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: slot them into some sort of pigeonal Oh well, because
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: I like going down rabbit holes, I'm therefore going to
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: buy default adopt the counter narrative, because that in itself
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: is an ideological flaw.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so common. Yeah, yeah, I know, that's what
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: I would say I've got less interested in details, but
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: not not in the same way that perhaps James is saying,
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: because I fully admire, Like I listened to you and
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: the guys at column and I'm like, wow, gener really
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: knows this ship.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: So you can you can have it now.
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: I for me, there's certain things which I just like, say,
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: let's say viruses, virus, no virus. I haven't looked into it.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: I don't feel any any particular need to. But then
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: I'm not gonna and then I'm not going to offer
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: my opinion on it particularly, I'll just say I'm happy
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: to sit in that.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: You're such a gatekeeper.
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, this is it, but this is what happened.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: I said because I'm happy to say I don't know,
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: you know, and because I was.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: And that's the one that I hate. That's so because
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: you don't have an opinion, Jake, you and nor me.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah yeah.
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: Now again it's black and white, isn't it. It's it's
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: that it's that division thing. I don't feel the need
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: to have an opinion on certain things like it doesn't
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: at this point in my life. It's not helping me
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: navigate my life. So I'm i'm I'm interested in certain things.
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: I'm interested in, our psychology, spirit, whatever I'm interested in,
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: you know, plumbing, you know, cooking, whatever I'm interested in
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: I'm interested in.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: If i'm if I'm if I'm not.
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: But then I'm not going to write an article about
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to write an article and just drop in,
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: oh yeah, camp trails are this, or viruses of course
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: don't exist, or yes, of course blah blah blah, because
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: why would I do that.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: I don't need to.
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: I don't need I don't need to create an identity
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: as a truther, like I don't need to wrap myself
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: up in a in a truth truth of shell and
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: just say this, I believe everything that you know, the
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: conspiracy kind of royalty believing. So yeah, I think that's
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: I think that's the difference. You go into the detail,
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: which enables you then to have great conversations with a
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: whole bunch of people, and if you I mean not
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: all things, it's difficult.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah of course.
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: But then from what I've seen you, then you just
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: sit in the same way that I perhaps do in
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: the in the in the thousand words, you kind of
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: sit and you just listen and you go, yeah, maybe
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: you know, you might just offer you know, you might
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: offer some some some mirror up to it or something.
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: But I don't think you're someone who would go oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: of course, of course you know, there's no viruses, you know,
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: without having come to that conclusion yourself, you know. And
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: I think that's the difference where I think I think
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: James kind of does do that, you know.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: I mean I remember meeting.
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: Him the first Hope Festival. I didn't know who he was,
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: and he was chatting with his brother, and you know,
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: I was this guy and his brother had the military
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: hat on, like they were quite eccentric, you know, and
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: I was like, these are a strange couple of guys.
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: But I just remember thinking that I think they were nice,
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: you know, they were nice enough, and they're interesting conversation.
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: But I felt like, oh, this guy's like a kid
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: in a sweet shop. He's just the way he was
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: talking was like just of course, I'm just going to
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: consume every now, I'm going to consume every conspiracy like
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: without I just thought, there doesn't seem to be a
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: lot of discernment going on here. It's just sort of
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: a kind of fetishization almost of conspiracy thinking. And and
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: you know, I think people who have only been looking
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: at this stuff since you know, twenty twenty, I think
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: they tend to be more prone to that.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right. I think this is true,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: like true, but this a there's an over excitement.
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, and and a kind of running with
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: ship when perhaps you should just sit and observe for
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: a bit longer, you know.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: I mean there are exceptions. Bob.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: Bob would be an exception, you know. He I don't
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: think he was really looking at stuff before. And he's
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: a very nuanced thinker, you know, and he's very you know,
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: he's but again, he's an artist, and I think it
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: just that's it's a different way of looking at the world.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: Well, we've spent almost an hour and I haven't even
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: asked you my very first question, which is about your
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: art itself. But I've enjoyed the conversation. I think I'll
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: have to get you back and we can. Then we
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: can we can sad more about art because look, you
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: have beautiful paintings. Thanks, and and and we haven't spoken
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: at all about any of it. But I suppose this
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: is part of the part of the the the it's
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: the territory because you engage in this kind of stuff
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: in your artworks. As it turns out, the thousand words thing.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, there's there's a couple of different things.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: So I do.
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: I do something called The Righteous Brothers, which is avertally
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: more social commentary kind of stuff.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: And that.
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: Then and then the portraits I do sort of classical
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: portrait here and then and then I just thought, because
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: I love people, you know, and I'm just fascinated by people,
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: and I just had this idea to start having conversations
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: while whilst paying them. Actually as my wife who came
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: up with the idea, and she said, that would make
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: a great podcast because it's and it's quite different. I mean,
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: it's a bit of a niche thing because you know,
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: for some people they want they're busy and they want
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: info quick, and it's not it's not that kind of thing.
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: It's like, Okay, I want to just sit and relax
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: and hear some someone's story a bit more that I
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: like to. I like to go into people's story and
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: just where they're coming from, you know.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And also you're quite geographically restricted.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: Well there is that has to be in person. Yeah, yeah,
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: it has to be in person, which is yeah, that
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: is a problem. So I'm actually going to start this
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: is we just bought this little caravan. It's called a pod.
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: It's called a go pod. It's tiny only weighs like
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: five hundred kilos, but it makes quite a nice studio
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: because it's all white, and I don't have aw air
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: in the house that I can do podcasts from because
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: I work in the loft and it looks like I'm
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: in prison when I'm in the loft. It just doesn't
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: look good anyway, So I came in here. This would
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: make nice. So I'm going to start doing little shorter
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: interviews because there's so many people who I'd like to
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: talk about talk with about more sort of esoteric stuff,
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: you know, just I mean there's an endless amount of
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: guess possible guests, you know, if I didn't have to
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: be with them in person, and I don't have to
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: set up an easel and have a camera crew and
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: all this, you know. So I think I'm gonna I'm
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: quite excited about that. I mean, just going to the
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: festival at the weekend, you know, I met three or
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: four people who might not want to sit for four
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: hours and have their portrait painted, but have a really
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: interesting story, Like as a guy I think his name's Andy,
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: who set up a charity called We Are Human and
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: he he was an next homeless guy and we are
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: human helps homeless people, but they do it properly, you know,
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: because I worked for I worked for a charity back
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: in the day. And the guy who set that charity up,
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was quite interesting.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: It was sort of I won't get into the details
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: of that.
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: He claimed he was enlightened and it was part of
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: the kind of self development project and he set up
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: these charities. But one of the one of the one
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: of the things that was really good about what he
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: did was that he challenged or he studied how mainstream
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: charities work, and he said, no, we're going to do
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: it differently. No one's going to get paid, even the
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: director is not going to get paid.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: Blah blah blah blah blah.
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: Because most I don't know if most people know, I
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: think they probably do. But most of the big charities
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: that you see on the high street, you know, they've
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: got directors and in maybe even quarter of a million
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: up to quarter of a million a year, and and
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: it goes all the way back down to the regional
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: managers who are on good money and driving around in
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: posh cars, you know, so money doesn't get It's hard
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: to find charity that you can support where you think, oh, yeah,
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: that that money is actually been used properly. So if
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: anyone's interested, we are human, they do really good work.
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: So he's got a really interesting story. He was homeless
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: and now he's helping the homeless.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: So it's people like that.
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: I'm sort of interested in that, like going back to
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: action and you know where we're at, and what's the point,
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: you know, like rather than endless rabbit holeing and calling
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: out shills and I like that.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: It's like, there's so much more substance in there. Yeah,
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: there's so much more depth, you know. I lift Twitter
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: x and at the end of twenty twenty five, and
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: I rejoined it a few days ago.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: Right, all right, how you feeling?
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: Well?
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: The thing is how many snows? If you watched a
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: lot of.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: It's horrible, good old, good old Elon.
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: So dark.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: But one of the reasons why returned, actually against my
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: better judgment, is because a lot of people who I
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: want on my show are there, right and it's it's
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: the easiest way to contact them. So I kind of
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: returned quietly so I could, you know, get get hold
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: of some of those people. But while was I telling
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: you that, I was saying.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: About there's so much substance in the real stories, right
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: doing stuff.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, And what I've noticed is now that a few
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: years have gone past the COVID era, it's as though
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: it never existed, and people have gone back to their
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: same culture wars, the same political wars that they were
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: having in the twenty teens, and they've gone back to,
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: you know, being the follower of Trump, you know, because
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: he's a great pipe piper, right, And it's all the
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: same stuff all over again. And yeah, it's as though
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: it's as though we need another quote unquote pandemic.
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: I don't say it careful what you wish for. Yeah,
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: I think I don't know. I mean, that's an interesting,
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: interesting perspective. I feel that maybe maybe that's the case
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: with with those who, for example, on Twitter or x
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: I prefer saying Twitter struggle, me too, I just got
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: it Twitter. But I think I think people have as
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: far as as far as I can tell, like say,
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: from going to festivals and the local meetup groups, and
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: I think there is there has been a progression, and
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: people aren't aren't aren't returning back to that. But I
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: think maybe the vocal ones, you know, those who have
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: a voice, it's kind of it doesn't quite represent where
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: where we're actually the act culturally or you know, in
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: a kind of group consciousness kind of way.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: I think, I think COVID was like a honeymoon period
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: for a lot of people. So we will find each other.
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: It's very easy because we had like very it was
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: very black and white. You know, if you saw someone
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: wearing a mask in a shop, you'd be like, well,
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm not gonna have much in common with them.
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: And if you saw someone not wearing a mask, you
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: go up to and go hey, and you become friends
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: quite you know.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: So it was really good like that.
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: And then I think, I think, you know, like like
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: any honeymoon period, it kind of ends and then you
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: get into the meat and potatoes of a relationship. And
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: if that relationship is going to go anywhere, you have
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: to practice self honesty, vulnerability, all the things that make
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: a good relationship. And I just think a lot of
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: people are struggling with that aspect of it. A lot
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: of people aren't. I think a lot of people are
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: shifting over to an interest more in people and not
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: the external and I think I think we need to
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: just get that balance right because it's obviously important what
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: we need to know what's going on out there, like,
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: and that's why the UK column is so I mean,
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: that's what the UK column does really well, you know,
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: and people people like that and when you talk, you know,
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: having that overview of what's going on. You know, there
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: was a period in my life where I just completely
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: dived in, you know, like I said, Alex Jones with
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: you know, three hours a day. I'm not saying that
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: he was the bill and end all of the truth,
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: but at the time, you know, going back the frogs.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: Gay yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all that, but it.
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: Was great, you know, twenty years ago, that was it
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: was inspiring. You know, we kind of needed some people
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: needed that. But again I use that as an example,
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: like I'm not a raging Zionist just because I listened
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: to Alex Jones or whatever.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: People say, well, he was a gatekeeper, so you've been
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: very mush. Well, I can discern I can take from
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: Alex Jones. At the time, I took from what took
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: from him what was right for me because I was
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: sovereign of.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Mind, you know.
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: And again that's that kind of I can listen to
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: anyone and just it doesn't matter. That's why I don't
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: get too concerned about who's controlled and who's not controlled.
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: I just think it's almost irrelevant because if you're taking
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: each thing that they say and just weighing it up
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: and just evaluating it, I don't care, you know, Like
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: so you know the classic example is David Ike. Yeah,
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: he's ninety percent truth, and then he throws in the
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: lizard shit.
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't care.
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: I can just I can put the lizard ship. No, no,
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: but let me finish. But yeah, exactly, that's what I
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: was going to say. I can put the lizard ship
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: on the maybe pile.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: But but it doesn't we've.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: I know, that's all right, Yeah, that's yeah. You froze.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: I lost your video feed.
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: Can you hear me though?
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: All right, I can hear you, but I can't see you.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: I don't know where that happened.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: All right, I'll tell you what we can do. We
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: can truncate this by a few minutes and you can
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: come back for around two. That's just a call of
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: the day. It's been a bit of a grimlin fest,
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: this this conversation. I've enjoyed chatting to you, but I
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: think what I wanted to chat you about we should
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: maybe do enough follow up conversation, so I think for now,
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: Jake Fern, thank you for joining me in the trenches.