Latest / Karl and Crew / Small Church Doesn’t Mean Broken with Karl Vaters & Broadcasting Hope in Hard-to-Reach Places with Ed Cannon

Transcript

Small Church Doesn’t Mean Broken with Karl Vaters & Broadcasting Hope in Hard-to-Reach Places with Ed Cannon · Karl and Crew

• 0:00
  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
• 0:05
  S1: and crew.
• 0:06
  S2: Come as you are an experienced guide, overcome what seems
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  S2: impossible and live as you never imagined.
• 0:14
  S1: Start your morning with a laugh.
• 0:16
  S2: Cold spaghetti's. Great. Okay.
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  S3: Okay, I disagree. I guess not. No, certainly it is not. No. Okay. Well, man,
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  S3: I'm going back.
• 0:26
  S2: To my bachelor days. I guess I like cold spaghetti
• 0:29
  S2: was universally loved.
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  S4: I've never been known for, like, high levels of coordination.
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  S4: That's just. It feels like.
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  S2: I've never been known for high levels of coordination.
• 0:42
  S1: Delivering the truth daily.
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  S4: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available
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  S4: and you're forfeiting your soul. There's no amount of gain
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  S4: that would make it worth it.
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  S5: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
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  S5: the life source, which is God.
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  S6: For me. Growing up, love was always conditional and can
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  S6: be taken from you. Christ. Love can't. And he went
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  S6: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
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  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and crew.
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  S2: What if the freedom God had for you today was
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  S2: to just stick with it? Yeah, just stick with it.
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  S2: What are you tempted to walk away from right now?
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  S2: That God may be calling you to stay faithful in
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  S2: or to? And those are the deeper questions of life.
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  S2: I mean, that's the kind of. Now you're boiling it down.
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  S2: It's so easy to walk in our own understanding rather
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  S2: than trusting in the Lord. And it could be that
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  S2: there's a need for you to gain some wise counsel.
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  S2: It could be that the greatest thing you can do
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  S2: this morning is open up Hebrews chapter ten. That could
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  S2: be your wise counsel. And in Hebrews ten, it's an
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  S2: epic chapter. It leads right into the Hall of Fame
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  S2: of faith. And it's all about this. I mean, the
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  S2: author of Hebrews is just cheering us on to stay faithful.
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  S2: As a matter of fact, the author of Hebrews says,
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  S2: but recall the former days when after you were enlightened.
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  S2: So after they were born again, they recognized Jesus as Messiah.
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  S2: You endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly
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  S2: exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with
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  S2: those so treated. So they were getting just beat up,
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  S2: or they were running with people who were. I mean,
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  S2: it was rough for you had compassion on those in
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  S2: prison and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property. What? Well,
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  S2: for the sake of Christ, since you knew that yourselves
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  S2: had a better possession and an abiding one. And then
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  S2: in verse 35. So now a little bit of time
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  S2: has elapsed here. Therefore do not throw away your confidence
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  S2: which has great reward, for you have need of endurance,
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  S2: so that when you have done the will of God,
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  S2: you may receive what is promised. Now that's powerhouse and
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  S2: it caps it with verse 29. 39. Love this. But
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  S2: we are not of those who shrink back. That's not
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  S2: our DNA. No, that's not how we're wired. That's not
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  S2: the reality of the new birth miracle. But of those
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  S2: who have faith and preserve their souls. What a passage.
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  S2: And then it goes right into. Now, faith is the
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  S2: assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
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  S2: For by it the people of old received their Commendation.
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  S2: By faith, we understand that the universe was created by
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  S2: the Word of God. And then it goes right into.
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  S2: By faith, Abel. And then it goes through the history
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  S2: of all of those saints. Old Testament, New Testament, by
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  S2: the way, old Testament by faith. And faith is clinging
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  S2: to God when you don't see everything. That's why it's
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  S2: called faith.
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  S4: Yeah. And I love this. We are not of those
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  S4: who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who
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  S4: have faith and preserve their souls. You know, I, I,
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  S4: I've been talking sports metaphors all week, so my mind
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  S4: just keeps going there. But I think I'm married to
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  S4: a basketball coach. So it's funny how often he sounds
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  S4: like a coach. He'll be talking to the kids and
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  S4: he'll say something to him.
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  S2: I've been around Henry enough to know that is so true.
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  S2: He is Coach.
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  S3: Henry.
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  S4: He slips into it and he'll say something to the
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  S4: kids and they're like, okay, coach. And he's like, did
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  S4: that sound like a coach? And you know, one thing
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  S4: that a good coach will do is that when adversity
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  S4: comes and they call that time out, I'm thinking basketball here.
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  S4: You've just gotten beat up on a little bit. The
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  S4: other team went on a run and you huddle up
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  S4: the group and you say, are we the kind of
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  S4: guys who quit when it gets tough? No we're not.
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  S4: It's like the answer is understood in the asking of
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  S4: the question. Of course, we're not the kind of the
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  S4: kind of team that's going to quit when adversity.
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  S3: Comes shrink back. And that's what movies are.
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  S2: Made out of. They never make movies out of the
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  S2: coach that says, hey, you know what? Let's just get
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  S2: through this thing because we're getting our booties kicked and
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  S2: we'll get out of here and go have dinner.
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  S4: You got to remind the team of their identity that that's.
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  S4: Is that who we are? No. We're the kind of
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  S4: team that perseveres when it gets hard, that fights back
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  S4: so that we can get the victory. And that's what
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  S4: I think of when I read this little passage.
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  S2: What are you tempted to walk away from right now,
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  S2: that God may be calling you to stay faithful in.
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  S2: There's plenty of things that God doesn't ask us to
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  S2: stay in. Physical abuse. Abuse of any kind. No there's not. Don't.
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  S2: Don't spiritualize that. But there's plenty of things that come
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  S2: up that we're in our own thinking like, yeah, I'm
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  S2: out of here. I'm bouncing. Could be emotionally detaching from someone.
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  S2: It's like, yeah, I'm done with you. But it could
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  S2: be that you have some boundaries, but now you just
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  S2: pray differently. Could be that you're pulling out some imprecatory
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  S2: prayers in love and you're just saying, God, just deal
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  S2: with this situation. More often than not, we're called to
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  S2: hang in there. And I love it. Therefore, do not
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  S2: throw away your confidence. Isn't that something? So you got confidence.
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  S2: It's grounded in Christ Jesus our Lord. He's the one
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  S2: that gave us that. And what the writer of Hebrews
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  S2: is saying, don't throw away what God has given you.
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  S2: Don't do it. Why? I mean, the appeal is the
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  S2: the hook here is let God put. Let God put
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  S2: your name down in the Hall of Fame of faith.
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  S2: And I mean, if you go into Hebrews 11, you
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  S2: read it and you're like, does it get tough? Oh, Carl,
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  S2: it's so tough. Are you kidding me? We got people
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  S2: beaten in chains and sawed in two. I don't have
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  S2: the exact reference, but that's what's in Hebrews 11. Sawn
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  S2: in two.
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  S4: Ali I mean, yeah. Reading through Hebrews 11, you sobering man.
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  S4: Sobering things.
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  S2: Yeah. Sobering but incredible. And then chapter 12, therefore, since
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  S2: we're surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses who
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  S2: didn't throw out their confidence, by the way, see, it
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  S2: all flows together. You can do an inductive Bible study
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  S2: on this, and you'll just cherry pick all these things.
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  S2: You're going, whoa! We are not of these people who
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  S2: throw away confidence. We've seen Jesus do it here. He's
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  S2: going to do it again and again and again and again. Wow.
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  S2: So the question is this what he attempted to walk
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  S2: away from right now, that God may be calling you
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  S2: to stay faithful in? Get some wise counsel. If you must.
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  S2: Get on your knees and say, God, you got to
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  S2: give me the strength for this one.
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  S1: He will get to know the team behind the scenes.
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  S1: Follow Carl and crew on Facebook and Instagram. Yeah.
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  S7: It's Freedom Friday, freedom Friday.
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  S4: Carl, do you remember there was something you said yesterday?
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  S4: You said does. Doesn't your family sometimes get a kick
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  S4: out of things that you say that they say? That
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  S4: doesn't sound like something you would say. Do you remember
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  S4: you said that yesterday?
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  S3: Yeah.
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  S4: So last night, I kid you not. I said something,
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  S4: and my son, 13 years old, no joke. He goes,
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  S4: that sounds like something Carl would say.
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  S3: I was like, what in the world? You just said
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  S3: it and I love it. Way to go. Can I.
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  S4: Clarify? I said, what did you just say? He goes,
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  S4: sounds like something Carl would say.
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  S3: That's great.
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  S4: Oh, boy. And then when I thought back at what
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  S4: I had just said and how I said it, I
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  S4: was like, he's not wrong.
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  S3: Oh, it's it's.
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  S2: So funny.
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  S3: I mean, when you.
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  S2: Work around each other, I mean, I don't know what
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  S2: it is, but I say things like you guys all
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  S2: the time and it's just, oh, it's just.
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  S3: So bizarre.
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  S5: You take on a lot of things. I remember I
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  S5: was new here and I was FaceTiming my, my now wife,
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  S5: then girlfriend and, and I said, yeah, we'll get on that.
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  S5: We got to get that squared away. And she goes,
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  S5: what are you talking about? Get that squared away. And
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  S5: I don't think she really knew you at the time.
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  S5: I was like, oh my. My coworker says squared away
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  S5: all the time. I was like, it just gets stuck
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  S5: in there. It's infectious bro.
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  S2: It's something else. And I'm, I just want to apologize
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  S2: to you and your legacy, all of you.
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  S3: My team, it's great.
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  S2: I'm so pumped that cannon busted mom out.
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  S3: On that one.
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  S4: He did it. He had asked me something about fish.
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  S4: I don't even remember what we were talking about. And
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  S4: I said, that's wild caught salmon, baby. And he was.
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  S3: Like.
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  S5: Whoa.
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  S3: It was.
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  S4: Very strange. And it just came out and it had
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  S4: to do with salmon.
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  S5: So that's. Yeah, that's straight up. Carl.
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  S4: So I got.
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  S3: A quick I got a quick.
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  S4: Poll for you listening, particularly those of you, uh, long termers.
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  S3: Who've been listening.
• 10:31
  S4: To us for a while. What is the funniest phrase
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  S4: that you hear Carl say that you can remember. Funniest
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  S4: phrase you've heard Carl say here on Carl and Crew.
• 10:43
  S4: Text us only (800) 555-7898. I'm just curious to see. Just
• 10:49
  S4: text us 805 557898.
• 10:52
  S2: All right, we'll keep it right here for a second
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  S2: because what plops in here?
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  S5: You really do have, uh, you have crazy things that
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  S5: I've never heard anyone else say.
• 11:01
  S2: I mean, a few are unique to me, but most
• 11:03
  S2: of them are. They're just Alaska born.
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  S5: Colder than a well-digger's backside.
• 11:07
  S2: Yeah, colder than a well-digger's backside.
• 11:09
  S3: That's a good one.
• 11:10
  S4: To always call people spiritual stud muffins, spiritual.
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  S5: Stud muffins.
• 11:14
  S4: Katie, bar the door. I don't think I know that
• 11:16
  S4: that's a common one, but that's not one that I
• 11:19
  S4: had heard nearly as much. Remember when everything he always
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  S4: would say, we're getting deluged.
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  S5: Deluged. Yeah, yeah. You don't say deluged as much anymore.
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  S5: But you used to say deluged a lot. I had never.
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  S3: Heard.
• 11:32
  S4: The word.
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  S5: Before. Cogitate, cogitate.
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  S4: What are we talking?
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  S5: The cockles of your heart.
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  S4: Warm, the cockles of your. That's a good one. Oh
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  S4: my goodness.
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  S2: Oh, boy. They're coming in.
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  S5: If that doesn't fire you up, you got wet wood.
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  S4: Yeah, that one came in a couple of times. Uh.
• 11:55
  S4: Oh boy, do I do I.
• 11:56
  S5: Yeah. You gotta read it.
• 11:58
  S4: The turd in the punch bowl one. That one's. Well,
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  S4: that's so beautifully.
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  S2: Uh, graphic.
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  S5: It is. There's nothing that describes what you're what you
• 12:07
  S5: want to describe better than that.
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  S4: Okay. Uh. Whoa, Nelly. He does say that. Whoa, Nelly. Uh,
• 12:16
  S4: the the broadside of Mccready's barn.
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  S2: Yeah.
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  S4: Yeah. That one. Um, put some mustard on it. These
• 12:22
  S4: are all that are that are coming in. Swig of water.
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  S4: He does refer to swig of water.
• 12:27
  S5: That one's one of your newer ones. You didn't used
• 12:29
  S5: to say that.
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  S4: Uh. Let's see. Get your dookie in a squisher.
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  S5: Yeah, that one's crazy.
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  S4: Macready's barn is getting a lot of mentions, as is
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  S4: turd in the Punchbowl, with varying degrees of acceptance on
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  S4: that one.
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  S2: Worst of it all, caps worst one is like a
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  S2: punch bowl. I want to go back to turning the
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  S2: punch bowl.
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  S4: Really? I mean, we could just.
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  S2: Well, the beautiful thing about turning the punch bowl is
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  S2: it is so graphically illustrative of something that said out
• 13:01
  S2: of the blue or maybe highly inappropriate. And it plops
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  S2: like a turd in a punch bowl. And that vision
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  S2: is just it's just so spot on.
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  S5: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's true.
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  S4: Um, and then someone else brought up, uh, when you announced,
• 13:20
  S4: was it, uh, Michael W Smith? Yes it is. No,
• 13:24
  S4: someone actually brought that up. You have a great member. Memory. 1437.
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  S5: Do you remember that one? Yeah. I'll play it for you.
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  S4: Play that one.
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  S8: Who you are.
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  S2: Michael W Smith.
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  S8: Yes it is.
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  S9: Yes it is.
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  S10: It's so funny.
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  S5: Oh, that'll never be better.
• 13:43
  S2: Oh, I don't know why I stepped in that.
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  S4: That was really funny. Okay. Wow. You I, I commend
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  S4: you listeners. This is the faithful coming in strong with
• 13:53
  S4: some serious car isms.
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  S2: Yeah.
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  S4: Getting your cup bumped, the cockles of your heart took
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  S4: you in a squisher. What is that one?
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  S2: You're taking a squisher is when you get your behind
• 14:08
  S2: in a place between a rock and a hard place.
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  S2: You get your tookus in a squishes.
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  S5: An uncomfortable spot.
• 14:13
  S2: Yeah, it's a bad spot.
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  S4: Good stuff, good stuff.
• 14:17
  S2: Al. He's like, okay, let's keep cooking here. Speaking of
• 14:22
  S2: cooking here, you sat down with someone, another Carl with
• 14:25
  S2: a K.
• 14:25
  S4: Carl. When Carl was out, I had another Carl step
• 14:28
  S4: in Carl Vader's. He's coming up here.
• 14:31
  S2: Oh my goodness. High Ridge. Yeah!
• 14:35
  S4: Oh, yeah. You got to stay up on that high ridge.
• 14:38
  S1: Breaking chains and running free. You're listening to Carl and Crew.
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  S4: Well, there can be a subtle competition that can start
• 14:47
  S4: to creep up where it can become big church versus
• 14:51
  S4: small church. People will often express a preference. Oh, I
• 14:55
  S4: could never go to a big church, or I could
• 14:58
  S4: never go to a small church. And then they'll list
• 15:00
  S4: the reasons why or why not. And then sometimes there's
• 15:04
  S4: the idea that that small churches, that their problem is
• 15:08
  S4: that they are small. Therefore, the big church needs to
• 15:11
  S4: come on in and help this little church that's struggling
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  S4: grow to be a big church so that there can
• 15:16
  S4: be more big than small. All of these conversations happen
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  S4: sometimes informally, and pastors never talk about the size of
• 15:23
  S4: their churches, do they? Carl Vader's joining us this morning.
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  S4: It can be very tempting to try to diagnose the
• 15:30
  S4: health of a church based on the number of people
• 15:33
  S4: coming each week, right?
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  S11: Oh, it definitely can. I was just with a group
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  S11: of pastors recently, and we we actually admitted to each
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  S11: other that the next time somebody asks, what's your church running?
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  S11: We're probably all going to pad it by 20 or 25%.
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  S11: And we decided we'll try not to do that from
• 15:49
  S11: now on.
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  S12: Carl is with us. He's served in.
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  S4: Small church ministry for over 40 years, so he speaks
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  S4: and writes from decades of hands on pastoral experience. Now, first,
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  S4: it's important to understand just the the landscape is that
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  S4: most churches in America are small churches. Correct. Which I
• 16:09
  S4: think is a common is commonly not known.
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  S11: Yeah, that's very true. We think that churches are typically
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  S11: bigger because big is visible. You know, you drive, you
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  S11: can drive through a town and not see ten small churches. Well,
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  S11: because you're noticing the really big one on the hill.
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  S11: But the average, the medium sized church in America is 70,
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  S11: and that's actually up over the last 2 or 3
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  S11: years from about 50 just post pandemic.
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  S4: Okay, so let's talk about some of the assumptions that
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  S4: can unintentionally hurt small churches, things that are assumed to
• 16:43
  S4: be true about a church just because it has it may,
• 16:47
  S4: let's say small is defined as what? Fewer than 100.
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  S4: Is that considered small?
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  S11: It depends on who you're talking to. But generally under
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  S11: 100 is definitely considered small. And some would even say
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  S11: under 200 is small, because there's a pastoral presence of leadership.
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  S11: When you've got enough, a few enough people in the
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  S11: room that the pastor can know everybody. So that kind
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  S11: of is how I define it. If the pastor is pastoring,
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  S11: because they kind of know everybody and they know everybody's situation,
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  S11: that's a small church because it's big enough, the pastor
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  S11: can't know everybody and has to delegate a lot of
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  S11: pastoral things to others. That's big. And that's happened somewhere
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  S11: between 100 to 200.
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  S4: Okay, so let's talk about some of those assumptions that
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  S4: can be wrong and even hurtful.
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  S11: The main one that I discovered, I've got a ministry
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  S11: called Helping Small Churches Thrive. So I spent a lot
• 17:35
  S11: of time with small church pastors helping to resource them,
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  S11: but before that, helping to encourage them. And the biggest
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  S11: discouragement that I see is people assume that if a
• 17:46
  S11: church has gotten bigger numerically from year to year, that
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  S11: it's broken or stuck. Those are the words they use. Oh,
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  S11: your church is stuck because it was 70 last year
• 17:55
  S11: and it's 70 again this year. You must be broken.
• 17:58
  S11: Let's see what we can fix. And it isn't necessarily
• 18:01
  S11: broken just because it hasn't gotten bigger.
• 18:04
  S4: Because the old adage, I guess, is that healthy things grow, right?
• 18:07
  S4: And and so that's when applied to churches. The assumption is, well,
• 18:12
  S4: if your church is healthy, then you should be seeing
• 18:14
  S4: more numbers year over year. Why is that not a
• 18:16
  S4: correct application?
• 18:18
  S11: Yeah, that is the thing. And it makes sense. I mean,
• 18:21
  S11: you think about it. It's part of a healthy church
• 18:23
  S11: is going to be people coming to Christ. And if
• 18:25
  S11: people are coming to Christ, the church is going to
• 18:27
  S11: get bigger, right? Yes and no. I mean, think about this.
• 18:30
  S11: A healthy rose is never going to be the size
• 18:33
  S11: of a redwood tree, right? Everything has its optimal size.
• 18:37
  S11: And then at that point it multiplies. And that's what
• 18:40
  S11: the growth is. So the Church of Jesus is the
• 18:44
  S11: most relentlessly growing organism in the world for the last
• 18:48
  S11: 2000 years. It continues to grow, it continues to multiply.
• 18:52
  S11: And if you go to places in the world where
• 18:54
  S11: Christians are actually increasing as a percentage of the population,
• 18:57
  S11: it is almost exclusively because of the multiplication of smaller churches,
• 19:02
  S11: not because of the building of larger ones. So do
• 19:05
  S11: small churches grow? Yes. And most of them grow by
• 19:08
  S11: multiplying other churches, by sending people off in the ministry,
• 19:12
  S11: not necessarily by simply getting larger year after year.
• 19:16
  S4: Okay. So let's talk about some of these other assumptions
• 19:19
  S4: that big churches can make about small churches.
• 19:23
  S11: There's a paternalism sometimes that happens, and there are times
• 19:27
  S11: when the church expert will come along, or we'll be
• 19:29
  S11: sitting at a conference or whatever. A small church pastors
• 19:32
  S11: and the pastor of the biggest church in the room
• 19:34
  S11: is up and speaking, and we appreciate that. And we
• 19:37
  S11: can learn from the big church. But I'm going to
• 19:40
  S11: use the word paternalism and maybe even condescension every once
• 19:44
  S11: in a while. It feels very paternalistic and very condescending.
• 19:47
  S11: When the big church pastor acts like they know more
• 19:51
  S11: about the church I'm pastoring than I do. Yeah, okay.
• 19:56
  S11: I heard a pastor once say, my first week in
• 19:59
  S11: the church, there were three of us, and right now
• 20:02
  S11: the church is running 35,000. So whatever size you are,
• 20:04
  S11: I can help you. And I wanted to scream. Yeah,
• 20:07
  S11: but you never sat at 70 for years, you blew
• 20:12
  S11: through all of those barriers. Your entire testimony is how
• 20:16
  S11: quickly you grew and how fast you got. Big. And
• 20:19
  S11: I need to talk to somebody who is struggling at
• 20:22
  S11: a size right now because I am too. And tell
• 20:25
  S11: me how to deal with those issues and how to
• 20:27
  S11: do good ministry while not getting bigger. Because just because
• 20:31
  S11: I'm not getting bigger doesn't mean I'm struggling. That may
• 20:33
  S11: be the size the Lord wants me right now.
• 20:35
  S4: Carl Vader is with us this morning, and I want
• 20:37
  S4: to be clear, we're not promoting one size church over
• 20:42
  S4: over another here. It's there are healthy small churches and
• 20:46
  S4: there are healthy big churches. And the flip side is
• 20:49
  S4: there are unhealthy small churches and they're unhealthy big churches.
• 20:54
  S4: But what are some of the unique challenges of both
• 20:57
  S4: when it comes to being unhealthy? We'll start with there.
• 21:01
  S4: Or is it the same across the board? What makes
• 21:03
  S4: a small church unhealthy is the same as what makes
• 21:06
  S4: a big church unhealthy.
• 21:07
  S11: I back you up. I love churches of all sizes.
• 21:09
  S11: I just happen to specialize in small. Uh. But there
• 21:13
  S11: are peculiarities. The primary peculiarity that I've seen is this.
• 21:18
  S11: Imagine that you are a person who, for whatever reason,
• 21:21
  S11: you want to go to church, but you really don't
• 21:23
  S11: want to get involved. You want to be passive and
• 21:26
  S11: you want to be anonymous. What size of church are
• 21:28
  S11: you likely to pick?
• 21:30
  S4: Uh, a big church where you can kind of disappear
• 21:32
  S4: into the crowd.
• 21:33
  S11: Exactly. So pastors of healthy big churches know this. They
• 21:37
  S11: know that this is an easy place to disappear into.
• 21:40
  S11: So pastors of healthy big churches are constantly pushing ministry teams,
• 21:43
  S11: small groups. They're trying to get people involved because they're
• 21:46
  S11: pushing back against passivity and anonymity. Now, if in the
• 21:51
  S11: small church, passivity is not the biggest problem, the small
• 21:54
  S11: church pastors aren't fighting against passivity. Because if you're a
• 21:58
  S11: control freak, what size of church are you going to pick?
• 22:00
  S4: Oh, that's a good question. As a pastor or as
• 22:03
  S4: a just as a layperson.
• 22:04
  S11: Yes.
• 22:05
  S12: And okay.
• 22:07
  S11: Yeah. Either one, if you're a control freak, you're likely
• 22:10
  S11: to pick a small church because you can have more control.
• 22:13
  S11: They're both pastors and congregation members. So pastors of healthy
• 22:18
  S11: small churches know this, and they're constantly having to push
• 22:21
  S11: back against the tendency to have control freaks in the
• 22:25
  S11: church and to become a control freak themselves. So passivity
• 22:29
  S11: and anonymity is the challenge in the big church. Control
• 22:32
  S11: freaks are often the challenge in the small church.
• 22:34
  S4: Karl Vader is with us this morning. Coming up, let's
• 22:36
  S4: talk about the numbers of churches that are closing. I
• 22:41
  S4: saw one recent stat that said there were more churches
• 22:43
  S4: closing than opening and asked Karl to speak to this.
• 22:47
  S4: Is that true? And if so, what can we learn
• 22:51
  S4: from that? What should we be seeing and paying attention to?
• 22:54
  S4: More coming up here on Karl and crew.
• 22:56
  S1: Standing on the Rock each and every day you're listening
• 23:01
  S1: to Karl and crew.
• 23:02
  S4: Is it true that there are more Protestant churches closing
• 23:06
  S4: year over year than opening? Karl Vader's joining us. He
• 23:10
  S4: is the author of The Church Recovery Guide and some
• 23:13
  S4: other great books. He is all about helping small church
• 23:17
  S4: ministries thrive. He's been doing this for over 40 years.
• 23:21
  S4: Is it true that more are closing than opening?
• 23:24
  S11: That is sadly the truth. Recently, there's been some good
• 23:27
  S11: work done by folks like Ryan Berg and Church Answers.
• 23:31
  S11: In fact, I just recently interviewed Sam Raynor from Church
• 23:35
  S11: Answers from my podcast, The Church Lobby, and it'll be
• 23:39
  S11: coming out in a couple of weeks. And according to
• 23:41
  S11: Church Answers and the Raynor's, we are coming along at
• 23:45
  S11: not just church closures, but pastoral retirements. We're coming into
• 23:49
  S11: the biggest wave of church closures and pastoral retirements that
• 23:53
  S11: America has ever seen statistically. And on the other side,
• 23:57
  S11: the incoming class of pastors that are being trained for
• 24:00
  S11: full time ministry is one of the smallest we've ever seen.
• 24:03
  S11: So we're heading into a time of real crisis and
• 24:07
  S11: trying to figure out a new way forward with a
• 24:10
  S11: smaller group of pastors, a, a smaller number of churches
• 24:13
  S11: than we've ever seen before.
• 24:14
  S4: Wow. So that, I mean, that's someone's hearing that for
• 24:18
  S4: the first time. Many of us are hearing that for
• 24:19
  S4: the first time. And it's that's kind of a staggering thought.
• 24:22
  S4: What's your reaction to that?
• 24:24
  S11: Well, we're going to have to rethink some things. Historically,
• 24:27
  S11: whenever the church has faced a crisis like that, whether
• 24:31
  S11: it's a threat from the outside or a threat from
• 24:33
  S11: the inside, God always calls a group of people to
• 24:37
  S11: notice it, to pay attention, to be prophetic. If that's
• 24:40
  S11: the word you're comfortable with, or at least just simply
• 24:43
  S11: to be able to anticipate these things. And what it
• 24:46
  S11: always does on the best side of it is it
• 24:49
  S11: always calls us back to really re-understanding, what Jesus called
• 24:54
  S11: his church to be. The only answer to this isn't
• 24:58
  S11: to come up with some new ideas. We've had 40
• 25:01
  S11: years or more of extreme technical increase in our churches.
• 25:05
  S11: We've got better sound systems, better lighting systems, better air conditioning,
• 25:08
  S11: better seating, better facilities than the churches ever had anywhere.
• 25:12
  S11: It is comfortable and wonderful and beautiful, and I'm grateful
• 25:16
  S11: for it. But nobody's leaving the church because of a
• 25:20
  S11: lack of technical excellence, so we're not going to get
• 25:22
  S11: them back because of more technical excellence. They're leaving in
• 25:26
  S11: a lot of time for two primary reasons. One, because
• 25:29
  S11: they just don't believe it anymore, and two, because they're
• 25:32
  S11: not sure we believe what we're saying, because we're not
• 25:34
  S11: living with integrity. So I can't change what they believe,
• 25:38
  S11: but I can make sure that I'm living by what
• 25:41
  S11: I believe. Because if they're leaving because of a lack
• 25:43
  S11: of integrity, that's something we really need to change.
• 25:46
  S4: You know, uh, Carl, uh, our lead host often talks about,
• 25:52
  S4: you know, there's a lot of people who are in
• 25:54
  S4: churches who are not in Christ. And so to assume
• 25:58
  S4: that one is necessarily one equals one. It would be inaccurate.
• 26:03
  S4: Do you how much of the falling away is. Maybe
• 26:08
  S4: people who never really believed in Christ. And kind of
• 26:11
  S4: there was a cultural expectation for church and are simply
• 26:15
  S4: being more honest to what they actually believe that I'm
• 26:18
  S4: going to stop showing up because I didn't I never
• 26:20
  S4: believed this anyway. It was just kind of like the
• 26:22
  S4: thing to do. What do you think of that?
• 26:25
  S11: That's a huge part of what's happening. And the pandemic
• 26:29
  S11: amplified it.
• 26:30
  S4: Yes.
• 26:30
  S11: Because all of a sudden you can't go to church
• 26:33
  S11: and then people who didn't really want to or like,
• 26:35
  S11: what's Newton's second law of motion? I think it is
• 26:38
  S11: an object at rest, stays at rest, and an object
• 26:41
  S11: in motion stays in motion until acted upon by an
• 26:44
  S11: outside force. So the outside force of pandemic stopped that
• 26:47
  S11: habitual motion. And now that it stopped, it's like, I'm
• 26:51
  S11: not going to get going again. There's no reason to.
• 26:53
  S11: So I think there's a lot of that people who
• 26:55
  S11: just didn't believe and then they got permission not to go.
• 26:59
  S11: And so they're like, no, I'm not going to go back.
• 27:01
  S11: The weird stat on this, however, is there's a huge
• 27:05
  S11: percentage of people. And Ryan Berg has probably done the
• 27:08
  S11: best work on this. There's a huge percentage of Christians,
• 27:10
  S11: including senior Christians, who have stopped attending church regularly. But
• 27:16
  S11: when you ask them about their theology, their theology is
• 27:19
  S11: still biblically sound. They've just simply gotten out of the
• 27:22
  S11: habit of going. And that's a really weird crisis that
• 27:25
  S11: we've never seen before.
• 27:27
  S4: Yeah. And, you know, kind of back to the, the
• 27:29
  S4: small church circling back here when obviously a church closure
• 27:34
  S4: usually is when the kind of the church has sort
• 27:37
  S4: of died out. Either there's too few members to kind
• 27:40
  S4: of sustain it. Sometimes there's a church split and then
• 27:45
  S4: a church dies. Typically, there's been a couple of different approaches.
• 27:49
  S4: Either you figure out a way to grow the church
• 27:52
  S4: to so that it can be sustainable, or you just
• 27:54
  S4: close it and say, okay, this we can strengthen, I guess,
• 27:58
  S4: what remains and not try to save what's dying. What
• 28:02
  S4: do you say to that? And what's maybe the third
• 28:04
  S4: option that's not been as talked about.
• 28:07
  S11: Option A, option B is the primary thing that we
• 28:10
  S11: hear as pastors when we gather with other pastors and
• 28:13
  S11: we have other church leaders come around, if it's not growing,
• 28:16
  S11: then it must be broken, then go ahead and close it.
• 28:19
  S11: My whole ministry of helping small churches thrive is about
• 28:22
  S11: what if there's an option three? What if we can
• 28:25
  S11: help struggling small churches become healthy small churches and not
• 28:29
  S11: worry about whether or not they become bigger? Because my
• 28:33
  S11: experience and the statistics show that not every church that
• 28:37
  S11: becomes healthy continues to relentlessly get bigger. I think one
• 28:41
  S11: of the reasons that something like 90% of churches in
• 28:44
  S11: the world are under 200. I mean, think about that. 90%
• 28:47
  S11: of churches are under 200. They serve half the body
• 28:50
  S11: of Christ. The other 10% large churches serve the other
• 28:53
  S11: half of the body of Christ. So we're looking at
• 28:56
  S11: half of the Christians in the world and 90% of
• 28:58
  S11: the churches in the world. What if we helped those 90%
• 29:01
  S11: of churches who are small, simply become healthy and not
• 29:05
  S11: worry about whether or not they become big. Because as
• 29:08
  S11: you mentioned at the very beginning in the introduction of me,
• 29:11
  S11: there are some people who just prefer a small church experience.
• 29:14
  S11: They want to go somewhere where they know everybody, where
• 29:17
  S11: the pastor remembers their name. Here are the two main
• 29:19
  S11: reasons people give when they say they go to a
• 29:21
  S11: small church. Here's why. Number one, because the pastor knows
• 29:24
  S11: my name. So there's a whole bunch of people out
• 29:25
  S11: there who have this weird idea that they want to
• 29:27
  S11: be pastored by their pastor, right? And the second main
• 29:32
  S11: reason they give is because I can make a difference there.
• 29:35
  S11: There are gifts and skills that can be used by
• 29:38
  S11: people in small churches that can't be used in big churches,
• 29:42
  S11: because it doesn't fit the context. So we need to
• 29:44
  S11: be open to churches of all sizes, so people of
• 29:47
  S11: all types have a place they can go, where they
• 29:49
  S11: can minister and where they can worship.
• 29:51
  S4: Our guest this morning, Carl Vaders, he is the author
• 29:54
  S4: of several books, focuses on helping small church ministries thrive.
• 29:58
  S4: Just text small to 805 557898. Text. Small (800) 555-7898.
• 30:08
  S1: Start your day moving closer to Jesus. You're listening to
• 30:12
  S1: Carl and crew.
• 30:14
  S2: Boy, have we got a dear friend with us right now.
• 30:16
  S2: Ed guns blazing cannon. That's his middle name. Guns blazing.
• 30:21
  S2: That's it.
• 30:23
  S4: Ed cannon, he's the president and CEO of Far East
• 30:26
  S4: Broadcasting Company, otherwise known as Febc. They use radio and
• 30:30
  S4: digital media to give the hope of Jesus Christ to
• 30:32
  S4: people in hard to reach places.
• 30:35
  S2: Ed, it's been a while since we've seen you, man.
• 30:37
  S2: I love you, brother. Your passion for God and man.
• 30:40
  S2: You're going strong, aren't you, my friend?
• 30:42
  S13: Yeah it is, but it's not really me so much
• 30:44
  S13: as it is our courageous staff all around the world.
• 30:47
  S13: These people living in these tough places, they're the ones
• 30:50
  S13: where we lift our hat.
• 30:51
  S2: To give us, give us. Paint a picture. What's radio
• 30:54
  S2: look like? Like it doesn't look here.
• 30:56
  S13: Well, it's evolving. I mean, 30 years ago, Febc was
• 31:00
  S13: almost all shortwave radio and we were getting into FM
• 31:03
  S13: a m we got some big FM stations going into
• 31:07
  S13: places like North Korea. We have local FM stations in
• 31:10
  S13: countries like Indonesia, 125 outlets on FM in Indonesia. But
• 31:15
  S13: it's moving to social media. You know it. Carl.
• 31:18
  S2: Yeah.
• 31:18
  S13: It's moving to web based cell phone apps, social media.
• 31:22
  S13: And the difference is we used to broadcast to our
• 31:25
  S13: listeners on AM and FM radio, but now we're having
• 31:28
  S13: a conversation with listeners through social media. And that's what's
• 31:33
  S13: really engaging. I think the people around the world that
• 31:35
  S13: we're broadcasting to in these hard to reach places, because
• 31:38
  S13: they can have a private sort of a secret conversation
• 31:42
  S13: with somebody through an SMS or a social media app.
• 31:45
  S4: Okay. Let me give you some numbers for Febc. 260 stations,
• 31:50
  S4: 152 languages, 50 countries, 150 million listener engagements.
• 31:57
  S2: Wow. That's that's staggering, isn't it? Wow. I mean, and
• 32:01
  S2: you guys got this legacy. I think I told you
• 32:04
  S2: I was with John Yak and he was a short
• 32:06
  S2: term president. Sure. And we went down and I was
• 32:09
  S2: brand new in Jesus. And he put his arm around me.
• 32:12
  S2: And we took a road trip down to your offices in.
• 32:15
  S2: Are you in La Mirada? Where are you at?
• 32:17
  S13: Well, we've moved to Dallas now. So we're.
• 32:19
  S2: In. Okay, so you're out of there, but we went
• 32:21
  S2: to La Mirada at the time and yeah, my goodness,
• 32:24
  S2: the ministry coming out of broadcasters give us a vision
• 32:28
  S2: for what's going on.
• 32:29
  S13: Well, our vision is clearly to proclaim the gospel indigenous languages.
• 32:34
  S13: So we recognize that people need to hear the gospel
• 32:37
  S13: in their native tongue. And in order to do that,
• 32:40
  S13: we have indigenous pastors, broadcasters, Bible study leaders who understand
• 32:46
  S13: the culture. So they're living in the country, in the
• 32:49
  S13: city that they're broadcasting to. They're speaking in the indigenous language.
• 32:53
  S13: And so we have a philosophy, Karl, that's been since
• 32:56
  S13: the very beginning of Febc, where we're close to the listener,
• 32:59
  S13: networked with the local church, if there is one. And
• 33:03
  S13: so this close to the listener concept, I think is
• 33:05
  S13: what really works. And that's why social media is becoming
• 33:09
  S13: so effective because you're building a relationship with the listener. Yeah.
• 33:14
  S13: We met a lady in we were in Kyrgyzstan in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan,
• 33:19
  S13: not long ago. She came into the studio and she
• 33:23
  S13: was a listener. We invited some listeners to come in
• 33:25
  S13: for some refreshments, and she hadn't ever met anybody from Febc.
• 33:30
  S13: All of a sudden, one of our broadcasters was talking
• 33:33
  S13: in the corner, and she heard his voice and recognized
• 33:37
  S13: it and got all emotional because she said, you know,
• 33:39
  S13: I used to be a Muslim and now I'm a Christian.
• 33:41
  S13: My family has disowned me. But that man, he is
• 33:45
  S13: my best friend and I've never met him before.
• 33:49
  S4: Wow.
• 33:50
  S13: So it's like, that's what we're firing for If you
• 33:53
  S13: want to get a message that you trust coming from
• 33:56
  S13: some person, they got to be a good friend of
• 33:59
  S13: yours in order to trust him. Yeah. Interestingly, yeah, that's
• 34:02
  S13: why we call our radio in China. Liang Yu, Radio Liang,
• 34:06
  S13: you means best friend. So good friend radio. You can
• 34:10
  S13: trust a good friend.
• 34:12
  S2: Oh, that's a good idea.
• 34:13
  S13: You can't trust the propaganda from the government. You can't
• 34:16
  S13: trust the local newspaper or radio station. But you can
• 34:19
  S13: trust a good friend. And so as a result, Carl. Gosh,
• 34:22
  S13: social media is exploding in a place like China because
• 34:26
  S13: it is a good friend connection.
• 34:28
  S2: Oh my word.
• 34:28
  S4: Editor cannon from Febc with us this morning. You know,
• 34:31
  S4: when you think about what radio does, the opportunity that
• 34:34
  S4: we have to proclaim truth and somebody can, whether it's
• 34:37
  S4: social media or whether it's terrestrial radio as we know it,
• 34:41
  S4: it's this steady stream of truth. And so it's not
• 34:45
  S4: always those instant someone turns on a radio, they hear
• 34:48
  S4: about Jesus and they become a follower of Jesus Christ
• 34:50
  S4: that day. Sometimes it's that steady drip effect of that
• 34:54
  S4: day by day curiosity, maybe questions being answered, social media
• 34:59
  S4: posts reinforcing the truth. Have you seen that to be true?
• 35:03
  S4: Just sort of that, that daily drip of truth effect?
• 35:05
  S13: Absolutely. And one of the reasons that we recognize that
• 35:09
  S13: is because many of our countries will have a large staff.
• 35:13
  S13: The staff that isn't doing the broadcasting, but they're outreaching
• 35:16
  S13: to the community. We have counselors in Kiev, Ukraine, who
• 35:20
  S13: take phone calls and text messages all day long from
• 35:24
  S13: people who are suffering from the tragedy of war. Ladies
• 35:28
  S13: calling in saying, you know, my husband got drafted in
• 35:31
  S13: the Army and now my 16 year old son is
• 35:33
  S13: getting drafted to the Army. And these counselors listen to
• 35:36
  S13: phone calls and text messages 12, 14 hours a day. Actually,
• 35:40
  S13: I think there's 40 of them there now. And I
• 35:42
  S13: was just with some of them a few weeks ago
• 35:44
  S13: in Kazakhstan. The stories that come out of these councillors,
• 35:48
  S13: the tragedy of the people's lives, but yet sprinkling hope
• 35:53
  S13: into their life through the gospel of Jesus Christ. What
• 35:56
  S13: else can you do? I've lost my son. I've lost
• 35:59
  S13: my husband. I don't have a home. What can I do?
• 36:02
  S13: Turn to Christ and oh, it's unbelievable because of the
• 36:06
  S13: fact that we've got these people that are dripping truth
• 36:09
  S13: directly into their life. It's not just a broadcast, and
• 36:12
  S13: you're done. It's a broadcast and it's a follow up,
• 36:15
  S13: and it's become friends. And let's build a relationship with
• 36:18
  S13: the broadcasters that is the most effective way.
• 36:21
  S2: Yeah, that's the cool thing. Ed, you do remember the guy,
• 36:24
  S2: Seth Godin? Yeah. He was an author. Sure. And he predicted,
• 36:28
  S2: no joking. I remember hearing this 30 years ago. He said,
• 36:30
  S2: radio will be dead in five years. Dead. The amazing
• 36:35
  S2: thing about that, that makes it such a fallacy is
• 36:37
  S2: the thing he didn't account for is radio has this
• 36:41
  S2: weird ability to talk to one person. They don't have
• 36:43
  S2: to go to an auditorium to hear Billy Graham or
• 36:45
  S2: someone contemporary. They don't have to go to a church,
• 36:48
  S2: even an underground church. You can pump a signal in
• 36:52
  S2: as Febc is doing powerfully, and reach that person and
• 36:58
  S2: then keep reaching that person. Yeah, that's amazing, isn't it?
• 37:02
  S13: You know, Carl, 80 years ago, the founder of Febc,
• 37:04
  S13: doctor Bob Bowman, coined the phrase a portable missionary. And
• 37:09
  S13: then they even shortened it. It was a PM. It
• 37:11
  S13: meant that was a radio. So he called the radio
• 37:14
  S13: a portable missionary, because that box is sitting in somebody's
• 37:19
  S13: house and they don't have to worry about, like you said,
• 37:21
  S13: going to a church, going to an underground meeting where
• 37:24
  S13: they might get exposed. It's a one on one relationship
• 37:27
  S13: with the broadcaster, and that's what we aim for. That's
• 37:29
  S13: why we want to be close to the listener. We
• 37:31
  S13: want to be their best friend. You know why? Because
• 37:34
  S13: that works.
• 37:34
  S2: Kiev. Come on. We've heard some word. I didn't know
• 37:37
  S2: you had such a presence there. What's going on? And
• 37:41
  S2: I'll give. We got generous folks. Give our folks a
• 37:44
  S2: vision for. We'll tell them where to go to help,
• 37:47
  S2: but give them a vision for what's going on in Ukraine.
• 37:50
  S13: Yeah. Okay. So we've got nine FM stations in Ukraine.
• 37:53
  S13: We had 11, but two of them were totally destroyed.
• 37:55
  S13: The FM stations are still fairly effective, but mostly they're
• 37:59
  S13: effective because they're driving people to the social media. Um,
• 38:03
  S13: power is out constantly. We have a staff there in Kiev. Um,
• 38:06
  S13: there was a broadcast not too long ago where they
• 38:09
  S13: these two young people and we've got a video of
• 38:12
  S13: this on the website. They're broadcasting the studio and it's
• 38:15
  S13: pitch dark. They've got candles on the studio because the
• 38:18
  S13: power's out. Well, how can you broadcast when the power's out?
• 38:21
  S13: But thanks to Starlink, we've got internet in Ukraine. They've
• 38:24
  S13: got batteries in their laptops, so they're broadcasting with no
• 38:28
  S13: power and they're just having a great time talking. You
• 38:31
  S13: can see the enthusiasm on their face and the air
• 38:33
  S13: raid siren goes off. Carl.
• 38:35
  S2: Oh, my.
• 38:36
  S13: But the interesting thing is, guys like you and me
• 38:38
  S13: were diving under the desk. Yeah. They didn't even flinch.
• 38:41
  S13: They kept broadcasting because they're used to it, and they
• 38:45
  S13: know the reason they're there is to broadcast hope into
• 38:48
  S13: people's lives. Those people could hear the air raid sign
• 38:50
  S13: on the radio. They didn't care. And they don't want
• 38:53
  S13: the people to care. The gospel message is way more
• 38:56
  S13: important than being afraid of an air raid siren or
• 38:59
  S13: a missile. And that's kind of the attitude there. Uh,
• 39:02
  S13: people don't have heat in their homes. I'm hearing these
• 39:04
  S13: stories about they put a pup tent up with candles
• 39:06
  S13: in it, so they got a warm place to sleep,
• 39:09
  S13: but they don't care. Our staff are really interested in
• 39:13
  S13: proclaiming the gospel to these lost and broken people. In
• 39:18
  S13: a place like Kiev and all across Ukraine, broken by war,
• 39:21
  S13: because this is the perfect time to get the gospel
• 39:24
  S13: message out. People are desperate, looking for something to cling to.
• 39:29
  S2: Now, a quick word here. And this will encourage Ali
• 39:32
  S2: because she's a youngin. But the, uh, the you said
• 39:37
  S2: these are young, these are kids over there dishing up
• 39:39
  S2: the gospel. They're young 20s. Yeah.
• 39:41
  S13: Right. Yeah, that's exactly right. We just met last week
• 39:44
  S13: with a 17 year old who has come through some
• 39:47
  S13: really horrific conditions there in Kiev. She was injuring herself
• 39:51
  S13: and thinking about suicide. She became a believer by talking
• 39:55
  S13: to one of her counselors. Now she does a podcast.
• 39:58
  S13: She goes onto the podcast and she tells these young,
• 40:00
  S13: broken people in Ukraine, listen, what makes you think hurting
• 40:05
  S13: yourself is going to help yourself? That's crazy. Don't believe
• 40:10
  S13: the lie. That's her program. She's got tens of thousands
• 40:14
  S13: of followers in just six months time. 17 years old.
• 40:17
  S13: You're right, Karl. There are young people speaking truth from
• 40:20
  S13: their young hearts at cannon.
• 40:22
  S4: With us from Febc. We want to get you a
• 40:25
  S4: key word so that you can find out more about
• 40:27
  S4: this great ministry, opportunities to support and get involved. Just
• 40:30
  S4: text far to (800) 555-7898, text far to (800) 555-7898.