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40. An Occupational Therapist’s Journey into Family Constellations with Karena Coller · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Kiona and welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm your host, Tracy Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators for and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy Cartwright: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy Cartwright: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Everyone, and welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:37
  Tracy Cartwright: I am so pleased to be introducing my friend and colleague, Karena Coller,
• 0:44
  Karena Coller: K
• 0:47
  Tracy Cartwright: as you all know, who've been listening to this.
• 0:48
  Tracy Cartwright: I am not the.
• 0:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Best with names.
• 0:51
  Tracy Cartwright: It's not my superpower, but I do, um, find it really important to get people's names right.
• 0:58
  Tracy Cartwright: And that's a little bit of, uh, you know, just a little of something from my own history of, of my name not always being spel, right.
• 1:07
  Tracy Cartwright: So anyway, that's.
• 1:10
  Karena Coller: I into collar to make Collier.
• 1:12
  Karena Coller: It's written like that a lot and spoken like that a lot, so you're not the only one.
• 1:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Welcome, welcome.
• 1:19
  Tracy Cartwright: And, uh, I'd love for you to introduce yourself a little bit and, and share with the listeners and the viewers, whatever comes to mind for you.
• 1:27
  Karena Coller: Sure I'll bookend myself.
• 1:30
  Karena Coller: I'll start with the current.
• 1:31
  Karena Coller: Okay.
• 1:33
  Karena Coller: So I'm working as an occupational therapist.
• 1:36
  Karena Coller: I trained in that, uh, five years ago as a mature age student.
• 1:40
  Karena Coller: So I work with children and adults during the week and I also facilitate Family Constellation and have been learning family Constellation since the early two thousands.
• 1:51
  Karena Coller: Whenever I can, I'll facilitate workshops.
• 1:54
  Karena Coller: Uh, that's my passion.
• 1:57
  Karena Coller: And over time I'm able to integrate those two modalities where appropriate, and I found it very, very helpful.
• 2:06
  Karena Coller: I found Family Constellations extremely helpful in all of my previous work.
• 2:10
  Karena Coller: I'm married with four children, adult children, two grandchildren, and to bookend at the beginning, I was born in the UK in Bristol and immigrated over 68, 69.
• 2:23
  Karena Coller: Arriving in.
• 2:25
  Karena Coller: And going to Adelaide first, and then my family and I moved across states through Victoria and settled in in Melbourne.
• 2:35
  Karena Coller: Fantastic.
• 2:35
  Karena Coller: Fantastic.
• 2:37
  Tracy Cartwright: That's me.
• 2:37
  Tracy Cartwright: So how did you first meet Constellations?
• 2:40
  Karena Coller: Well, I first encountered Constellations through a social worker, Doug Smith, who introduced us following a court procedure that my husband's family was involved in and he was supporting the family and he was linked in with a very rich group of Melbourne facilitators who were learning the work and invited us to come along and be part of.
• 3:04
  Karena Coller: Part of the group partly, but because they needed people to practice with and we were very curious and, and wanted to learn as well, so.
• 3:16
  Karena Coller: Through seeing many, many, many constellations, and particularly my husband's, I thought, oh, this rings true.
• 3:23
  Karena Coller: There's something very special about this.
• 3:25
  Karena Coller: I can be a talker, I can chat, but generally in public, I'll be quite quiet.
• 3:30
  Karena Coller: And I found that the work was quiet and you could tap into what was going on more energetically with, yeah, so I found family Constellations to be a very beautiful.
• 3:44
  Karena Coller: Heart space where we could attune to what was really going on for us.
• 3:49
  Karena Coller: We could lose the stories, lose the narrative in so much as.
• 3:54
  Karena Coller: What we could see and feel was, was seen and felt.
• 3:58
  Karena Coller: And it was remarkable to see representations of family members in a, and particularly to note in a nonjudgmental way that this is the dynamics.
• 4:08
  Karena Coller: It wasn't always about the stories that we'd heard, but this is the dynamics at play.
• 4:13
  Karena Coller: And there was something about the truthfulness and the honesty of the dynamics, the energetic dynamics that allowed us to see that there's more.
• 4:24
  Karena Coller: To each of us, us, and we are connected in a, in a way that is, we don't always see it.
• 4:29
  Karena Coller: It's often invisible.
• 4:31
  Karena Coller: And when we've been hurt, we hide love.
• 4:34
  Karena Coller: We hide the love in us.
• 4:36
  Karena Coller: So this modality allows us to see where is that hurt?
• 4:40
  Karena Coller: Where is the entanglement?
• 4:42
  Karena Coller: Where did the stories cover up?
• 4:44
  Karena Coller: What was really, uh, love and out of love?
• 4:49
  Karena Coller: How do we respond to one another?
• 4:51
  Karena Coller: So I, I went to many, many constellations as I could, lots of different facilitators, and eventually did my own as well, that, that helped me to see what is my place in my family system, particularly immigrating.
• 5:06
  Karena Coller: There's a, there's a, a beautiful heart connection, which I always felt as a sadness and a grief to not be with my family, and the heart connection was very, very strong.
• 5:18
  Karena Coller: And I think that laid the groundwork for me to understand that we can have such a strong connection to people we don't see.
• 5:24
  Karena Coller: We don't hear.
• 5:25
  Karena Coller: We may not even know.
• 5:26
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 5:27
  Karena Coller: And it wasn't until 2017 that I went back to see my family and did a three week trip and stayed with people I'd never met, and the connection was there.
• 5:36
  Karena Coller: It was so strong.
• 5:38
  Karena Coller: Amazing.
• 5:39
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 5:39
  Karena Coller: It just affirms for me.
• 5:42
  Karena Coller: There's so much beauty in our.
• 5:44
  Karena Coller: It's like a garden.
• 5:46
  Karena Coller: There's just so much beauty in the way that our families are formed and made to be when left when we leave them alone a little bit and allow what's naturally there to fill us up.
• 5:57
  Tracy Cartwright: I did a, um.
• 5:59
  Tracy Cartwright: On the weekend.
• 6:00
  Tracy Cartwright: So years ago when I very first, um, met Constellations and I had done, done a piece with, with my family system and, you know, we were all representatives for all of my family system were and my parents, my brothers, my sister and I, and then the two that were missing from my family system.
• 6:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 6:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, which made us feel whole and then.
• 6:23
  Tracy Cartwright: The Maria asked for a, an example.
• 6:26
  Tracy Cartwright: She wanted to do a family that was over four children and most people in the room had, yeah.
• 6:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Two or three, you know?
• 6:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes, yes.
• 6:33
  Tracy Cartwright: And I had a, I had a system of six children, so yes, we put it up in the field, seeing it from this angle after all of these years of working and, um, all the healing that's been done.
• 6:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, it was so beautiful and so touching,
• 6:48
  Karena Coller: right.
• 6:48
  Karena Coller: And just
• 6:48
  Tracy Cartwright: having, giving the boys the place in, in the first place.
• 6:51
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause it go, you know, it went, uh, dad, mom, my eldest brother, next brother, and then there were the two boys that, um, didn't.
• 7:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Didn't come fully come through to the side, and then my sister and I and
• 7:06
  Karena Coller: yeah, it
• 7:06
  Tracy Cartwright: was just so different.
• 7:08
  Tracy Cartwright: And you know, you talked about, you know, not knowing someone in that connection.
• 7:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, well, with the two people that were represented for my brothers, I, I mean, I felt like, and I do know that I've known them, I've known them.
• 7:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Forever.
• 7:21
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 7:22
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 7:22
  Karena Coller: But it
• 7:22
  Tracy Cartwright: was just so touching and yeah.
• 7:25
  Tracy Cartwright: This work really makes us aware of that.
• 7:29
  Tracy Cartwright: We are aware of all of the things that we don't see with our human.
• 7:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 7:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Eye.
• 7:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 7:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Which is,
• 7:36
  Karena Coller: yeah.
• 7:37
  Tracy Cartwright: So limited,
• 7:38
  Karena Coller: stunning.
• 7:38
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 7:39
  Karena Coller: Our human eye limited.
• 7:41
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 7:41
  Karena Coller: And then we put our thoughts with it.
• 7:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, exactly.
• 7:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 7:46
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 7:47
  Karena Coller: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 7:49
  Karena Coller: I, I did my family system with my parents.
• 7:53
  Karena Coller: It took a while to do one with my brothers, and then I did a remarkable one with Maria as well.
• 7:59
  Karena Coller: That revealed that in the womb there was a, a twin that I had, had a twin.
• 8:03
  Karena Coller: So I'm the eldest of three boys.
• 8:06
  Karena Coller: And I always felt quite a bit of stress, a lot of reasons, but it felt like quite a burden to be the eldest.
• 8:12
  Karena Coller: And I always did my best.
• 8:14
  Karena Coller: You know, I was probably over trying overly helpful, overly I'll say leader of my, my siblings.
• 8:21
  Karena Coller: Um, they'd use another word and.
• 8:24
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 8:25
  Karena Coller: And, and again, I mentioned about the sadness and grief of leaving family behind.
• 8:30
  Karena Coller: So I thought that's where my sadness and grief lay was with family.
• 8:33
  Karena Coller: And when I went back to see family, I, I had three Stressless weeks of just joy going around to see everybody.
• 8:40
  Karena Coller: And when I came back, I, I, that was remarkable.
• 8:43
  Karena Coller: But there was still this, this sadness in me.
• 8:48
  Karena Coller: And Maria did a constellation and we looked at some of the, the, the first things that you might look at, and it wasn't any of those.
• 8:57
  Karena Coller: She invited me to go closer to my soul, and I just wouldn't, I just couldn't.
• 9:01
  Karena Coller: I just would not go there and she placed someone for something else and that something else came in and immediately left, actually left the room.
• 9:11
  Karena Coller: And when she came back in, I felt this sudden overwhelming opening up of grief and sadness.
• 9:18
  Karena Coller: And I, I don't cry crazily in front of people.
• 9:20
  Karena Coller: I might get teary, but I opened up with grief and just cried and cried and she came down, I was kneeling down and she came down to me, she said, I'm your sister.
• 9:31
  Karena Coller: I've always been here.
• 9:33
  Karena Coller: And I feel you know that that tightness in the chest at, at remembering that moment, um.
• 9:40
  Karena Coller: I'm your sister.
• 9:41
  Karena Coller: I've always been here.
• 9:42
  Karena Coller: So it appears from that constellation.
• 9:44
  Karena Coller: And Marie said, oh, vanished twin.
• 9:47
  Karena Coller: That in the womb with me there, there was a vanished twin.
• 9:50
  Karena Coller: And my understanding now, like in, in effect, she was the eldest because she, was she born?
• 9:57
  Karena Coller: Did she die?
• 9:58
  Karena Coller: I don't know, but she, she wasn't, she didn't come to this side, as you said before.
• 10:03
  Tracy Cartwright: So you felt.
• 10:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Hold.
• 10:07
  Karena Coller: I felt joy.
• 10:08
  Karena Coller: I felt freedom.
• 10:10
  Karena Coller: I felt joy.
• 10:11
  Karena Coller: The grief and sadness lifted that, that very, very, very present to the surface.
• 10:18
  Karena Coller: Grief and sadness.
• 10:19
  Karena Coller: It just lifted into joy.
• 10:21
  Karena Coller: There's a few little quirky things that I'd often done.
• 10:24
  Karena Coller: I always hung up my washing in pears.
• 10:27
  Karena Coller: If I bought anything and I could, I would buy pears.
• 10:30
  Karena Coller: I would buy two of them.
• 10:32
  Karena Coller: Mm-hmm.
• 10:32
  Karena Coller: I used to.
• 10:33
  Karena Coller: Be my mom to get one of those, um, Maya statues, you know, mannequins to put in my mannequins to wear my clothes, you know?
• 10:43
  Karena Coller: There's a few little things like that that I look back and you can read about, uh, womb twin survivors, and especially with the advent of IVF and our knowledge now.
• 10:53
  Karena Coller: Mm-hmm.
• 10:53
  Karena Coller: And midwives have always had this knowledge.
• 10:56
  Karena Coller: They've often seen what they call a papyrus twin born, or the, you know, um, they can tell that there's been another, another twin.
• 11:04
  Karena Coller: Or multiple births there.
• 11:07
  Tracy Cartwright: That's when they go so far, isn't it?
• 11:09
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause sometimes it's so early that they leave so early that it's not detected.
• 11:14
  Karena Coller: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
• 11:15
  Karena Coller: Sometimes
• 11:15
  Tracy Cartwright: it's further on and there's another, yeah.
• 11:19
  Karena Coller: There's another constellation who was uh, beginning the work around the same time as Bert Hellinger, and she's done a lot of work.
• 11:26
  Karena Coller: Oh, there's a word for it.
• 11:27
  Karena Coller: I can't remember.
• 11:28
  Karena Coller: There's no English translation.
• 11:30
  Karena Coller: And I'll find the name and that word for you afterwards, where the womb is, our first family system, and who we are, who we are.
• 11:38
  Karena Coller: Formed with that limbic memory of another heartbeat, another person's actually quite strong.
• 11:46
  Karena Coller: She's done some work linking that to later effects in our lives as adults.
• 11:52
  Tracy Cartwright: So that's, if you take a, if you've taken a step back from that though, um, Karina.
• 11:57
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 11:57
  Karena Coller: There's
• 11:57
  Tracy Cartwright: also the ovaries, right?
• 11:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Females, we have all the eggs we will ever produce from the time we are four to five months gestation within our mother's womb.
• 12:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 12:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 12:09
  Karena Coller: But our
• 12:10
  Tracy Cartwright: ovaries have all the eggs for the future.
• 12:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 12:14
  Tracy Cartwright: So 50% of us is already with our brothers and sisters and all of those who do not get fertilized.
• 12:22
  Karena Coller: Yes.
• 12:23
  Karena Coller: So that's so true.
• 12:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 12:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Take that one back.
• 12:26
  Tracy Cartwright: So
• 12:26
  Karena Coller: true.
• 12:27
  Karena Coller: Take that one in.
• 12:28
  Karena Coller: That gives another meaning to We're all connected.
• 12:32
  Karena Coller: It really does.
• 12:32
  Karena Coller: But it's funny, as humans, we need this knowledge to keep us exploring and searching and.
• 12:39
  Karena Coller: Affirming parts of our felt sense, I guess.
• 12:42
  Karena Coller: Mm-hmm.
• 12:43
  Karena Coller: It's exciting to learn.
• 12:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 12:46
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 12:46
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 12:46
  Karena Coller: That's very interesting.
• 12:48
  Karena Coller: So I found that the sadness and grief lifted, it's never come back.
• 12:52
  Karena Coller: I will, obviously, I feel normal day-to-day sadness and.
• 12:57
  Karena Coller: Grief over something big.
• 12:59
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 13:00
  Karena Coller: But not that pervasive sense.
• 13:02
  Karena Coller: Um, although having said that, we just did a constellation at one of the anky ones and someone representing my soul said, there's this sadness.
• 13:10
  Karena Coller: And Tony has come back from overseas where he was talking to San Gomez who said that people are called to do the work and often there's a great sadness Mm. Um, in their awareness.
• 13:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. That resonates for me as well.
• 13:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 13:24
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 13:25
  Karena Coller: So I did some work with Jan Margo as well around acknowledging the twin, and she's had this similar experience and so yeah, it was very beautiful to discover that as part of my family system to discover her.
• 13:41
  Karena Coller: And not a surprise to me.
• 13:42
  Karena Coller: I've been searching for that twin sister.
• 13:45
  Karena Coller: Forever asking my mom, my sister, where is she?
• 13:49
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 13:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 13:49
  Tracy Cartwright: And the listeners will recognize this from the conversation that I had, really felt called to do a conversation with myself around Van.
• 13:58
  Tracy Cartwright: So that's perfect.
• 14:00
  Tracy Cartwright: It's perfect.
• 14:01
  Karena Coller: Yes.
• 14:03
  Tracy Cartwright: And it's, it's an, it's surprising, isn't it?
• 14:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Or not that, how common it is.
• 14:10
  Tracy Cartwright: When we start looking at numbers.
• 14:13
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 14:13
  Tracy Cartwright: And some people are, are energetically emotionally aware of it and others are not because of their coping strategies.
• 14:23
  Karena Coller: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 14:26
  Tracy Cartwright: So whether, whether you are consciously aware of it, you might be energetically and emotionally aware of it, but not consciously aware of it, haven't got there yet.
• 14:34
  Tracy Cartwright: So.
• 14:34
  Tracy Cartwright: That would be easiest way to describe it.
• 14:37
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 14:38
  Karena Coller: Well, I feel blessed to have to have lived my life to date with, with the experiences I've had of separation and closeness a lot of time on my own as well.
• 14:49
  Karena Coller: A lot of time, a few, few years growing up on a farm where I, I played around the farm.
• 14:57
  Karena Coller: A few experiences there where I got a felt sense of being brave and wanting to understand more, wanting to feel more like there was a locus plague, and I stood out and wanted to feel what it was like to be in the Locus Plague and have Wow.
• 15:13
  Karena Coller: Come to.
• 15:14
  Karena Coller: I used to make lots of tree houses and spent a lot of time in nature and I think, I think that feeling of a child being brave to do something, to jump out of a tree or to make a raft and go on the flooded, you know, swamp field that's next door, and to do those things as a child with the freedom that I had and the loving family that I was in, gave me a real.
• 15:38
  Karena Coller: Sense of bravery, and I think that helped me with, with, with sensitivity to navigate and want to navigate more, more deeply emotional work.
• 15:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 15:52
  Tracy Cartwright: When you are meeting someone mm-hmm.
• 15:54
  Tracy Cartwright: How do you describe the work?
• 15:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Like, I know you talked a little bit earlier, but how would you describe you just meeting someone at a coffee shop or something like that and
• 16:05
  Karena Coller: Yeah, or
• 16:06
  Tracy Cartwright: a barbecue.
• 16:07
  Tracy Cartwright: And
• 16:07
  Karena Coller: baring, uh, it's very hard to describe the work without, yeah, it's very difficult to de, firstly, I say it's very difficult to describe the work it needs to be experienced, and we are very used to our cognitive abilities and our thinking abilities and the desire to describe is quite strong.
• 16:27
  Karena Coller: So it is good to assert that, uh, our felt experience is also quite valid.
• 16:32
  Karena Coller: So to experience the work is the best way to, to.
• 16:37
  Karena Coller: Understand the work, but I would describe it as a, as a therapeutic modality that helps us to move beyond the stories and the narratives that we've been handed down or that we've created ourselves.
• 16:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 16:51
  Karena Coller: And to understand more about the energetic dynamics that are affecting the relationships within our families, and to be able to accept with respect, uh, what is.
• 17:04
  Karena Coller: What is is something I puzzled over for a long time.
• 17:07
  Karena Coller: So to be able to understand that, for instance, I might give an example, like for instance, the story that a man abandoned his family when he went out to sea 'cause he liked to go and work out at sea could be very different when that man is represented who says, I re I missed you, I missed all of you and I wanted to be with you, but I had to go away and work.
• 17:31
  Karena Coller: It could be similar for a war experience.
• 17:34
  Karena Coller: So, mm, I try to give an experience, uh, an example that is relatable.
• 17:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you have any favorite facilitators?
• 17:44
  Karena Coller: I have many facilitators who I have access to.
• 17:47
  Karena Coller: I'm very, very lucky.
• 17:49
  Karena Coller: Uh, and each one offers something different.
• 17:51
  Karena Coller: I think coming from a nursing background and being aware of our symptoms.
• 17:58
  Karena Coller: Often that's what we will go to seek support for or seek health is our symptoms.
• 18:04
  Karena Coller: I really love learning from Stephan Hausner, and I've joined a couple of his online learning circles in the last couple of years.
• 18:12
  Karena Coller: I like how he sits and he pauses and waits and listens to the person.
• 18:17
  Karena Coller: And he sort of moves, moves through what is initially coming up to what is more deeply coming up.
• 18:24
  Karena Coller: And I think he's explained how his homeopathy background has taught him that you don't need to treat everything.
• 18:33
  Karena Coller: You just need to treat something, some, some.
• 18:35
  Karena Coller: One thing, and I hope I'm representing this properly, begin.
• 18:38
  Karena Coller: Begin the healing process in the body with what is most important, what is most coming up.
• 18:44
  Karena Coller: So he applies that to his constellations as well.
• 18:46
  Karena Coller: Treat one thing that is coming up and then it's like the body, your own body or the family system body then is supported to begin the healing process and the healing process can unfold.
• 18:59
  Karena Coller: So that helped me a lot in my.
• 19:02
  Karena Coller: Work a facilit to not be overwhelmed by how many, how many paths you could go down.
• 19:09
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 19:09
  Karena Coller: Jan has, has taught me a sensitivity to the work and.
• 19:14
  Karena Coller: Pause and wait.
• 19:16
  Karena Coller: She works very beautifully.
• 19:18
  Karena Coller: Doesn't need to explain everything that's happening and tunes in very, very well.
• 19:23
  Karena Coller: Han GOs Goki taught me to pause and wait as well, and to ask the questions that need to be asked and to be brave to look at what is difficult to look at.
• 19:34
  Karena Coller: Maria taught me to have a voice, so the year that I did training with her, she very much helped me to speak up and to use my voice.
• 19:43
  Karena Coller: Yes,
• 19:44
  Tracy Cartwright: because she yells out, speak up.
• 19:46
  Karena Coller: And even when I went back to uni, I mean, I've, I've come to a lot of learning later in life, even though I've been immersed in constellations for a long time.
• 19:53
  Karena Coller: That immersive learning, um, I'll come back to that, the voice in a minute.
• 19:58
  Karena Coller: The immersive learning with, uh, Karen Tweedy and Dean Mason who do organizational constellations.
• 20:04
  Karena Coller: I learned so much from them.
• 20:06
  Karena Coller: I learned so much from Doug Smith who always encouraged me.
• 20:10
  Karena Coller: I, and also, I've had some difficult moments with Constellated as well.
• 20:14
  Karena Coller: That has also encouraged me to stand on my own feet and mo move beyond the story and to follow my own, my own heart.
• 20:24
  Karena Coller: Because each of us will respond differently and as necessary.
• 20:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, exactly.
• 20:29
  Tracy Cartwright: And sometimes those, those things are, are just.
• 20:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Aren't they, those moments that are difficult as much as the
• 20:36
  Karena Coller: they're Yeah.
• 20:36
  Karena Coller: Expense of
• 20:37
  Tracy Cartwright: heart opening moments.
• 20:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, yeah.
• 20:40
  Tracy Cartwright: And those difficult ones can be,
• 20:42
  Karena Coller: yeah.
• 20:43
  Karena Coller: At the
• 20:43
  Tracy Cartwright: time.
• 20:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Very difficult to digest, but um, when you start to
• 20:48
  Karena Coller: Yes, absolutely.
• 20:50
  Karena Coller: To
• 20:50
  Tracy Cartwright: see the silver lining of it all, it's
• 20:52
  Karena Coller: like,
• 20:52
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 20:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 20:54
  Karena Coller: Um, I love the work of Catherine Ingram Silver.
• 20:57
  Karena Coller: She incorporates internal family systems quite naturally.
• 21:02
  Karena Coller: That really got to some very, uh, tangled roots inside of me, uh, that needed to be seen.
• 21:09
  Karena Coller: She held space beautifully for that.
• 21:11
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 21:11
  Karena Coller: It's not always easy to see, but the harder, it's the, the, the greater the fruit, you know, I've learned to welcome with, with an anticipation, almost a joyful anticipation.
• 21:23
  Karena Coller: What is difficult, especially when you're supported.
• 21:26
  Karena Coller: I think what I love about the work is we work in a group most often.
• 21:31
  Karena Coller: But it's one to one work and it's one heart at a time.
• 21:34
  Karena Coller: And I love that.
• 21:35
  Karena Coller: I love working with my OT work One Heart at a Time.
• 21:39
  Karena Coller: We don't need to be overwhelmed by everything and everyone, or.
• 21:45
  Karena Coller: Yeah, I think I've spent a lot of my childhood feeling overwhelmed, so that's coming up for me.
• 21:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 21:51
  Karena Coller: Why?
• 21:51
  Karena Coller: My husband loves big group work and we were just in Rosebud and he was running some training, big group work, lots of involvement, and I was walking on the beach, you know, I didn't need to be there.
• 22:01
  Karena Coller: But I realized even in a group with constellations, we attune one-to-one.
• 22:08
  Karena Coller: Whether it's a dyad, whether it's the facilitator and client, and I really love that work.
• 22:13
  Karena Coller: And I'll just mention David Ward did a livestream process with me and, and afterwards my homework was to get some Nike shoes with the just do it tick on it.
• 22:23
  Karena Coller: So just do it.
• 22:24
  Karena Coller: And I did that.
• 22:25
  Karena Coller: You know, the little bits of homework that people give you.
• 22:28
  Karena Coller: A little bit of fun, but they work as well.
• 22:31
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 22:31
  Karena Coller: So sometimes the homework that's given to us from a constellation, not everyone, but sometimes they really just engage the playful side of us that, um, can then take that learning in, into, into the world.
• 22:45
  Tracy Cartwright: And you said you're gonna come back to the voice and share around that.
• 22:49
  Karena Coller: Yeah, it was very difficult for me or as an occupa as learning occupational therapy, especially towards the end of 2020 when a lot was online using my voice, or actually before that, doing oral presentations in front of a group and doing oral exams to the examiners was very, very difficult for me.
• 23:10
  Karena Coller: I have a lot of anxiety around that and could hardly speak at times.
• 23:15
  Karena Coller: Actually doing it online was easier'cause I was in my own space and I could speak from that space.
• 23:21
  Karena Coller: So then the next year, 2021, I did a year of work with Maria with her course and it was still very difficult for me to speak up in a group.
• 23:30
  Karena Coller: But by the end of the year, my voice changed and I, I felt more confident.
• 23:34
  Karena Coller: We worked on my voice, we did a, I didn't know this is what we would look at during the constellation, but.
• 23:43
  Karena Coller: We just set up me and something else.
• 23:45
  Karena Coller: And what it turned into was setting up a representative for a perpetrator where it appears that that's maybe an event where I maybe lost my voice.
• 23:55
  Karena Coller: Where, where I was, um, there was a, a sexual assault and I didn't speak up about it afterwards.
• 24:02
  Karena Coller: Just didn't tell anybody.
• 24:03
  Karena Coller: And I think from then, like as a. I was 11 or 12.
• 24:07
  Karena Coller: Um, from that moment I think I learned to squash things down even more.
• 24:12
  Karena Coller: You know, that playfulness of childhood was a lot harder to access and then adolescence is not easy anyway.
• 24:19
  Karena Coller: But I think squashing my voice down as a woman and not speaking up.
• 24:23
  Karena Coller: Yeah, it was very interesting that Constellation turned into a very powerful moment where I could see the perpetrator represented.
• 24:33
  Karena Coller: It was a meeting of equals, and yeah, it's very hard to describe that moment, but just eyeballing that person and then slowly, I'm not sure which one of us, we sort of knelt down and we just went down onto the ground and then back up again.
• 24:51
  Karena Coller: And that was a very powerful moment.
• 24:53
  Karena Coller: And in that representation, I put my hand.
• 24:55
  Karena Coller: This is a grown man representing.
• 24:56
  Karena Coller: I put my hands on the front of his chest.
• 25:00
  Karena Coller: It was a very long room and I pushed him and he was fighting against me, but I pushed him from one end of the room to the other and uh, in the representation, and he was fighting against me, but the strength in my body to push him away.
• 25:15
  Karena Coller: Gave my, gave me a felt sense that released something in me of being empowered to stand up for myself.
• 25:23
  Karena Coller: Um, and there was also represented a group of girls who were, who were there at the time, and witnesses at the time of the assault.
• 25:29
  Karena Coller: So they were represented as well.
• 25:31
  Karena Coller: And yeah, it was interesting, I think the shame that I felt from being, having that incident witnessed and not being able to do anything about it, and they couldn't do anything about it, it seems.
• 25:44
  Karena Coller: Something resolved, but it was very interesting because it's not for someone else to take revenge for me or to make justice for me.
• 25:52
  Karena Coller: So at the end of the Constellation, they were, they were calling for me to speak up, to yell to.
• 25:59
  Karena Coller: I can't quite remember what to, to do more than what I had done.
• 26:03
  Karena Coller: But what I had done was push this man to the other end of the room.
• 26:06
  Karena Coller: That was enough.
• 26:07
  Karena Coller: I didn't need more from anybody else, and they didn't it.
• 26:11
  Karena Coller: It wasn't helpful for them to take on board what I needed to deal with.
• 26:17
  Karena Coller: So that was a really interesting moment as well.
• 26:19
  Karena Coller: Beautiful.
• 26:20
  Karena Coller: Thank you.
• 26:21
  Karena Coller: And I'm really grateful for Maria who did the, she did the twin one and she did that one, and she really sat with, her way of teaching is to unlearn us.
• 26:31
  Karena Coller: She really sat with not knowing what was happening for both of those.
• 26:36
  Karena Coller: So had no, I couldn't explain in a, in an interview what it was that I wanted and I wanted to use my voice.
• 26:45
  Karena Coller: Uh, I wanted to not have the grief and sadness as pervasive as it was, but I couldn't have explained any of that, but we accessed it through constellations and I felt freedom after that.
• 26:57
  Karena Coller: And between the, the beginning of the year to the end of the year, I could use my voice more clearly.
• 27:03
  Karena Coller: People could hear me across the room, and that's really significant for a woman I think.
• 27:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 27:10
  Tracy Cartwright: And you don't have to rage, right?
• 27:12
  Tracy Cartwright: You don't have to.
• 27:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Don't have rage.
• 27:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Rage and yell and, and, and scream.
• 27:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, those, all those, sometimes that feels really good.
• 27:19
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 27:19
  Karena Coller: I recently did a day on women's anger, which was held in Warragul, and it wasn't a constellation day, but it was a group of women.
• 27:27
  Karena Coller: I was reluctant to go because of the rage, and I don't really want to get caught up in that rage, but it was the most beautiful, nurturing, nourishing day of acknowledging that.
• 27:38
  Karena Coller: Anger within us.
• 27:40
  Karena Coller: Anybody.
• 27:41
  Karena Coller: It didn't have to be women, but it happened to be a group of women.
• 27:44
  Karena Coller: It was so nourishing and nurturing and such a beautiful way to approach.
• 27:49
  Karena Coller: 'cause anger's a catalyst, isn't it?
• 27:51
  Karena Coller: We don't wanna stay in there, but it helps us.
• 27:54
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 27:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, it can be, it can be very helpful sometimes, um, to have that anger, like the fire underneath you.
• 28:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Um,
• 28:03
  Karena Coller: yeah.
• 28:03
  Karena Coller: But
• 28:03
  Tracy Cartwright: until, unless it's driving the bus constantly, then that's not so helpful.
• 28:08
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 28:08
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 28:08
  Karena Coller: And it becomes strength.
• 28:10
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 28:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 28:11
  Karena Coller: The anger deep within us becomes a strength, a very calm, good strength.
• 28:16
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 28:17
  Tracy Cartwright: It's when we push it down to being so that it doesn't have a place,
• 28:21
  Karena Coller: right?
• 28:22
  Karena Coller: Yes.
• 28:22
  Karena Coller: And going back to favorite facilitators I should mention, Tony, we love working together.
• 28:27
  Karena Coller: We're very, very different.
• 28:28
  Karena Coller: We spark each other in different ways.
• 28:31
  Karena Coller: Uh, you know, we'll affirm one another.
• 28:34
  Karena Coller: We'll pull each other up.
• 28:35
  Karena Coller: We'll mirror one another.
• 28:36
  Karena Coller: So I do love working with Tony as well.
• 28:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 28:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, that leads into my next question was Sure.
• 28:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, or comment was around your book that you and Tony have created this amazing book together.
• 28:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 28:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Such a fantastic tool
• 28:49
  Karena Coller: there.
• 28:51
  Tracy Cartwright: It's there, it's, so,
• 28:51
  Karena Coller: my, my video is not mirrored, but it's a guide to family systemic constellations, a day in the life of a workshop that was birthed, um, from one of your earlier question, how do you explain family constellations?
• 29:05
  Karena Coller: Hmm.
• 29:06
  Karena Coller: So I had a conversation with a friend Richard, who said to me he, he was willing to come and to be a representative, but he wanted to know more what hap tell me exactly what happens when I arrive, what do you do?
• 29:19
  Karena Coller: What happens throughout the day?
• 29:21
  Karena Coller: Uh, he wanted to know the practical things.
• 29:23
  Karena Coller: And it was from that book that I thought, oh, okay.
• 29:26
  Karena Coller: So maybe if people understand the flow of a workshop day.
• 29:30
  Karena Coller: How we sit in a circle.
• 29:31
  Karena Coller: We have break, we take, we take good care of ourselves with, with breaks, hydration, laughing normal, you know, like normal interactions, conversation as well as sitting down in the circle and, and holding a deep compassion and witnessing for one another.
• 29:48
  Karena Coller: So the book was, was born out of that.
• 29:50
  Karena Coller: So.
• 29:51
  Karena Coller: I highly commend it
• 29:53
  Tracy Cartwright: to anyone, anyone that's listening and, and watching this.
• 29:56
  Tracy Cartwright: I shared it, um, in Sydney a couple of months ago and I think you had a few orders from there.
• 30:03
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, and the feedback actually when I was back this time was, um, well that book was really cool, you know?
• 30:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Great.
• 30:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, yeah.
• 30:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Wonderful.
• 30:12
  Tracy Cartwright: It's great for people to be able to understand constellations of what to expect at a workshop and Yeah, and I think that you give a few examples too, so, um, of your own experiences in that.
• 30:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 30:24
  Karena Coller: Our editor suggested that we explain them more, but we found that the brief ex, giving this examples briefly allowed to the constellation style of sticking to the facts.
• 30:37
  Karena Coller: It's a stronger way to, to describe something.
• 30:41
  Karena Coller: For constellations.
• 30:42
  Karena Coller: But yeah, we go through what is a family constellation, A workshop at, at a good attitude to arrive with the different roles of people at a workshop.
• 30:52
  Karena Coller: The interview we explain about emotions.
• 30:55
  Karena Coller: You know, my era, we didn't really know too much about emotions, so that's a big learning from for me.
• 31:00
  Karena Coller: So we explained that more clearly.
• 31:03
  Karena Coller: Uh, setting up a constellation, unfolding resolution or non resolution, and then some case studies.
• 31:11
  Karena Coller: And, and then some of our own constellations as well, as well as the principles of the four principles of Constellation.
• 31:17
  Karena Coller: And we've included our, my Poetry and Tony's song lyrics in there as well.
• 31:22
  Karena Coller: It.
• 31:23
  Karena Coller: It was a, a 18 months, nearly two year process of, of writing.
• 31:29
  Karena Coller: Writing happened quite quickly over a few weeks, and editing took a lot longer.
• 31:34
  Tracy Cartwright: I was gonna say, did you find that you thought, how long did you think it was gonna take you to, how long it actually took?
• 31:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Well,
• 31:40
  Karena Coller: we wrote the book in about three weeks.
• 31:42
  Karena Coller: It came very clearly because we'd been living the experience of running workshops together and.
• 31:48
  Karena Coller: Our editor then edited what we had and she said, oh, it should only take you a few days.
• 31:54
  Karena Coller: So we thought to edit.
• 31:55
  Karena Coller: Might take a few days.
• 31:56
  Karena Coller: Well, it took another year and we attended workshops and did our own work as well.
• 32:02
  Karena Coller: And we found that each time we attended we thought, oh, that's important.
• 32:05
  Karena Coller: That needs to go in.
• 32:06
  Karena Coller: So the editing process, we are much happier with the book that we have now than we.
• 32:10
  Karena Coller: Had we published a year earlier.
• 32:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 32:13
  Tracy Cartwright: And
• 32:13
  Karena Coller: our editor still edited the end product as well for us, which was great.
• 32:18
  Karena Coller: So if
• 32:18
  Tracy Cartwright: someone wants to buy the book, how do they get in touch with you?
• 32:21
  Karena Coller: So they can go onto my website www beside the c au and they can order there.
• 32:31
  Karena Coller: Um, my contact details are there to email and I'll post you the book.
• 32:35
  Karena Coller: It's,
• 32:37
  Tracy Cartwright: we'll, we'll put your website and that in the links here as well so people can connect with that
• 32:42
  Karena Coller: Sure.
• 32:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Really easily.
• 32:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Now, I dunno if you've got easy access to one of your poems, I remember.
• 32:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, yes.
• 32:50
  Tracy Cartwright: We had a conversation recently and you shared a beautiful poem with me.
• 32:53
  Karena Coller: Yes, I did.
• 32:54
  Karena Coller: Earmark Pollen.
• 32:55
  Karena Coller: This is probably my favorite because it's such a beautiful experience that I had.
• 33:00
  Karena Coller: I'll just read it.
• 33:02
  Karena Coller: Okay.
• 33:02
  Karena Coller: Then we may have a comment.
• 33:03
  Karena Coller: I'm not sure.
• 33:04
  Karena Coller: Lily Pilly Gully is the title and Lily Pilly Gully is a small part of remnant rainforest at Wilson Smith's Promontory, uh, which is two hours from me here.
• 33:16
  Karena Coller: And you can walk a beautiful walk to the end where you go into this boardwalk.
• 33:22
  Karena Coller: Um, takes you across a very shallow stream and it's full of beach trees as well as eucalypts, and so that when the sunlight comes through, it's quite filtered and the rocks have a lovely amber color.
• 33:37
  Karena Coller: Anyway, so I'll read the poem.
• 33:39
  Karena Coller: Lily Pilly Gully Beach leaves scatter as my silent feet feel a dampness in the earth.
• 33:47
  Karena Coller: I breathe into the stillness.
• 33:49
  Karena Coller: Ancient paper gold leaves.
• 33:51
  Karena Coller: Flicker a water surface of a stone rippled stream.
• 33:56
  Karena Coller: I am in time, undefined sunlight, silver's the beaches.
• 34:01
  Karena Coller: My spirit plays a harp inside.
• 34:04
  Karena Coller: So I wrote that in 1985.
• 34:07
  Karena Coller: It's quite young and it was just a lovely experience and I think the what felt real was.
• 34:15
  Karena Coller: I'm in time undefined, and I recently, yesterday I read of a small island in Norway where when you cross over onto the island, you take your watch off and they don't use watches or time there, they go by a felt sense.
• 34:29
  Karena Coller: Mm-hmm.
• 34:29
  Karena Coller: You know, they're six months of daylight and nine months, or I haven't got my timing right of moonlight, sunlight, and moonlight month.
• 34:37
  Karena Coller: So yeah.
• 34:39
  Karena Coller: The world is very beautiful and our experiences are valuable to teach us about what really matters.
• 34:47
  Karena Coller: Could read you constellations if you like, which relates to constellations more.
• 34:51
  Karena Coller: And again, I wrote that in my early twenties.
• 34:54
  Tracy Cartwright: I'd love you to, and I'd love to, to explain how you wrote that in your early twenties when constellations, as we know it and as we are discussing constellations, how that wasn't at that point in your life.
• 35:07
  Karena Coller: Yeah, well there's something very timeless about what we know as constellations and there's something very real and dynamic about them.
• 35:17
  Karena Coller: And if they weren't that they wouldn't be effective.
• 35:22
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 35:22
  Karena Coller: But we are relearning something that has been effective for a very, very long time.
• 35:27
  Karena Coller: And this comes from reversing in the Old Testament in Jeremiah actually, and it talks about hope.
• 35:36
  Karena Coller: The ability for something that seems very unsettled and broken to actually settle back into place.
• 35:44
  Karena Coller: So it's called Constellation.
• 35:46
  Karena Coller: I will create constellations of sparkling peace in stricken war, torn craters of the earth.
• 35:54
  Karena Coller: Settling dust of my creation will dance through luminous skies and stars will suspend and merge, not crash.
• 36:05
  Karena Coller: In galaxies, beautiful and boundless, taking one another's hands, listen for the stars will begin to sing.
• 36:17
  Karena Coller: We know the stars from what we know the stars are in their place, but it's the light that merges and when we hold each other's hand.
• 36:26
  Karena Coller: Like at the immersive in April, when we did that first initial constellation for the two Maori women and then they called themselves the Star Sisters.
• 36:38
  Karena Coller: And is it, is it.
• 36:39
  Karena Coller: Totem the right word for their family group.
• 36:43
  Karena Coller: Sorry, what was that last part?
• 36:44
  Karena Coller: So the two sisters had have a, have a family connection to a particular part of nature and it happened to be stars.
• 36:51
  Karena Coller: Oh yeah.
• 36:52
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 36:53
  Karena Coller: And that was a very profound constellation for the two women, and they were.
• 36:57
  Karena Coller: It was beautiful and at the end we were all holding hands and the concept of the stars will begin to sing.
• 37:04
  Karena Coller: Could, could be the star sisters, you know, the, the freedom and lightness and joy that they may have access to once an entanglement is freed, but also it's the light.
• 37:16
  Karena Coller: You know, there can, wherever light touches the darkness, it goes away.
• 37:22
  Karena Coller: So.
• 37:23
  Karena Coller: Yeah, we just, we need to bring more light.
• 37:26
  Karena Coller: We need to be the light.
• 37:27
  Karena Coller: Let the light touch the darkness with compassion.
• 37:31
  Tracy Cartwright: I wrote a, um, years ago I did a piece of artwork around, um.
• 37:37
  Tracy Cartwright: My sexual abuse.
• 37:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 37:38
  Tracy Cartwright: And it was boxes, inside boxes.
• 37:40
  Tracy Cartwright: And so I started with the smallest box, which was me, very little, very.
• 37:44
  Tracy Cartwright: And then it got bigger and bigger and, well, one of the boxes I wrote before befriending butterflies.
• 37:49
  Tracy Cartwright: First we must meet with midnight moths.
• 37:52
  Karena Coller: Wow.
• 37:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Perspective comes when the light can be seen from both sides.
• 37:57
  Karena Coller: Yes, that's right.
• 37:58
  Karena Coller: When the light can be seen from both sides.
• 38:01
  Karena Coller: Because in the
• 38:02
  Tracy Cartwright: darkness there's, you know, it's the light and in the, um, that's what, yeah, that's what kept me here, I think for, until, you know, until these other tools came into my life.
• 38:14
  Tracy Cartwright: So yes.
• 38:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 38:16
  Karena Coller: Yes, yes.
• 38:17
  Karena Coller: We hang onto a thread of something, don't we?
• 38:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 38:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 38:22
  Tracy Cartwright: And I just love that you wrote that poem way back in the eighties.
• 38:26
  Karena Coller: I was 20 years old and I was sitting in the oval in the, in the middle of the night.
• 38:31
  Karena Coller: Wow.
• 38:32
  Karena Coller: Um, which I tended to do under the stars, feeling a lot of sadness and grief, just feeling so unable to do what I wanted to do, and.
• 38:45
  Karena Coller: Unable to understand or comprehend why I was, had such big feelings and emotions.
• 38:50
  Karena Coller: But when you allow yourself to sit with that clarity comes.
• 38:54
  Karena Coller: So as a poet, it's kind of also difficult to give up those big moments of emotions and grief because they, they lend a lot to, to artistry.
• 39:08
  Karena Coller: They feel a lot of our art, and it is something I had to learn to give up, to stay in.
• 39:15
  Karena Coller: If I wanted to heal, I needed a willingness to, to feel joy and to give up those big feelings of grief and sadness because it makes day-to-day life a rollercoaster.
• 39:26
  Karena Coller: Yeah,
• 39:27
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 39:27
  Tracy Cartwright: It's all done,
• 39:29
  Karena Coller: and then you can still do art and it's necessary.
• 39:32
  Karena Coller: All of that's necessary.
• 39:34
  Karena Coller: Your description of the moth.
• 39:37
  Karena Coller: And the butterfly, the wings, and you, it's all necessary.
• 39:42
  Karena Coller: You need to see the darkness in order to move beyond that because it needs to be seen with compassion, and it's the compassion that we bring to both sides.
• 39:54
  Tracy Cartwright: That's beautiful.
• 39:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Let me see where we are just about at time and Sure.
• 39:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Feel like there's another question.
• 40:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Sure.
• 40:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh no, I know.
• 40:03
  Tracy Cartwright: What I would like to just mention here is that, um, you'll be presenting at Anki next year.
• 40:10
  Karena Coller: I'm, thank you for asking me.
• 40:13
  Karena Coller: I'm, I'm very much looking forward to it, to sharing with all of you.
• 40:18
  Karena Coller: So
• 40:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Anki is the art in New Zealand Constellation Incorporation, but it's also could be immersion at the end.
• 40:25
  Tracy Cartwright: So we kind of had a little play with the eye on the end can mean a few things.
• 40:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, for those who are listening, and it's in April the 24th to the 29th.
• 40:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Great.
• 40:38
  Tracy Cartwright: In the Bay of Plenty.
• 40:39
  Tracy Cartwright: And you've been to both of ours.
• 40:40
  Tracy Cartwright: You've been to our very first one.
• 40:42
  Tracy Cartwright: I have the last one, yes.
• 40:44
  Tracy Cartwright: And this year you'll, next year you'll be presenting, so that's fantastic.
• 40:48
  Karena Coller: Yeah.
• 40:49
  Karena Coller: It's fantastic.
• 40:50
  Karena Coller: You, you and your team present a very nurturing, supportive space, immersive for six days and you go at a beautiful pace.
• 41:00
  Karena Coller: It's an honor to be part of the, the Maori and the.
• 41:04
  Karena Coller: What, what are the white, what are white settlers called?
• 41:08
  Karena Coller: Oh, I dunno if that's the
• 41:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Akha.
• 41:10
  Karena Coller: Paha.
• 41:10
  Karena Coller: Paha, yeah.
• 41:12
  Karena Coller: The Maori and the Paha.
• 41:13
  Karena Coller: It's very beautiful to be part of the growing space together.
• 41:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 41:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 41:19
  Tracy Cartwright: I think we have a very unique perspective on, on it here in, uh, we are learning and growing and it's not perfect, but we are getting, we're, we're learning as we go.
• 41:30
  Tracy Cartwright: So,
• 41:31
  Karena Coller: yeah, it's a very rich cultural experience as well as family constellations to combine the indigenous knowledge with subsequent what we are learning now is amazing.
• 41:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 41:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay, well thank you so much for coming on and being part of this conversation.
• 41:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Welcome.
• 41:49
  Tracy Cartwright: And there's so much more we could talk about and we might have another conversation again in the future.
• 41:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 41:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Looking forward to, to, um, to sharing this and to seeing you again.
• 42:02
  Karena Coller: Well, thank you, Tracy.
• 42:03
  Karena Coller: It's a pleasure to talk with you always.
• 42:05
  Karena Coller: You're
• 42:05
  Tracy Cartwright: welcome.
• 42:06
  Karena Coller: See you again.
• 42:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you for listening.
• 42:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 42:14
  Tracy Cartwright: You'll find me at Tracy dot Cartwright.
• 42:17
  Tracy Cartwright: That's Tracy with no e dot Cartwright and the or head over to my website, Tracy cartwright.co.nz and receive a free audio with the gift from your ancestors.
• 42:30
  Tracy Cartwright: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.