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Mishlei 25:27 - Mussar for Winnie-the-Pooh (Part 4) · The Mishlei Podcast

0:21
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so uh this is day four, final day for our uh our learning of this uh round.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh Mishlay 2527, a hold Vash harbose lato viker khotam kavot.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: Eating too much honey is not good, and the investigation of their glory is glory.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: So uh the goal today is to do the Rambaum in the Mordevukum, but we have a comment from our YouTube friend, Ruben Peskin, uh, which we're gonna start with, which is he says, actually, he posted this before yesterday, so I just missed it until after here.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: If you're going to continue this verse next week, meaning this week, and see the relevant chapters in the guide, I might suggest you likewise take a look at Rah Bag's comment on this verse.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: I believe it will pair nicely with what Ramam writes in the Mora.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: Unlike Rambah, he explains the second half of our verse too, though very much in line with and in the spirit of the Ramam.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: Here's how I would translate our verse according to the Rabag, and here's how I would translate his comment in our verse.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so this is his translation.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: Uh Akhilah, uh Akula, oh, sorry, the translation of the verse he's according to Paskin is eating honey in excess is not good, nor is excessive investigation of their glory glory.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: So he's taking the uh low, uh the low tove and extending it to the second half, which we saw in the far sham do.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Rab Bag says, Akila's had devash, Yoserminar Roy, low tov.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: Eating honey in excess is not good.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh Vuhuhi Hish Tadlus Badas Kidoshim.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: This is a figure for overstraining oneself in the pursuit of complete knowledge of the intellect.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: So kidoshimir meaning the uh the uh existences that are are uh um separate from matter.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Umsaim, for it should suffice that a man learn uh for a man, it should suffice a man that he learn from wisdom concerning the fact that they exist.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: Lo Shi Yafli Lachor Maheim, not that he should overreach to investigate their quiddity, that's a shlomopin's word, uh right, uh, is uh um their their uh like their essence or their being, uh the ech inyan nahem and uh their mechanisms.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: Okay, ki ha harbos bakeker kovodam e no kavod, because excessiveness in investigation of their glory is not glory.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: Kilo youhal ha sechal hai nushi la hasik al mita zeb of inshalim.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh, for the human mind is unable to comprehend the truth of this matter in a complete manner.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that's uh that's interesting thing.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: So uh so the you know the move that I've been seeing the Rabag make that I've not seen um anyone else make is the subject of Kavodam is the Kabod of the Kadoshin, right?
2:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh which I don't think is alluded to in any of our Psukim.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think it's alluded to any of Arpsukin.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
3:00
SPEAKER_03: It's not clear to me why he's saying not to do it.
3:03
SPEAKER_03: He's just saying that you can't have complete knowledge.
3:05
SPEAKER_03: Right investing as much as you can.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: I think he's defining my understanding is that he's defining um uh harbos as beyond your uh your capacities.
3:16
SPEAKER_03: He does say to only know that they exist and not to learn about like what's well I think that's because uh well actually okay, here's a good question.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: All right.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: Establishing that they exist, I get.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: And not understanding their essence, I also get.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: Um but not understanding their what he what Robach says is Ich Inahem, and what Peskin translates as their mechanisms, that I don't get.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if mechanisms is the translation of it.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I see why he's translating it that way.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, but like in other words, that would seem to be the activity of the of the Kosham, it seems like you can investigate, you know.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not uh I'm I I'm not entirely sure.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: So with this in mind, even though we're not saying that this is the Ramam, let's go into the Ramam.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Now, ordinarily, as you know, my procedure is to create a uh synthesized translation, but um I'm doing this for sheer tonight, and so I haven't made the thing yet.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna go ahead and read in the Goodman.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: I I I've looked at all four of the translations that um that I favor.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna look at the Goodman, and then for certain things, we'll go to the penis and the uh the Mahbili and the uh and the Kafakh.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: So he says like this.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: Uh so the context is this is in Chailik Aleph, um uh Prakim 31 through 34 is like when he interrupts the uh the lexical chapters, which are the first set of the definitions, and then talks about why um you should not enter, why you should exercise caution entering into the study of metaphysics.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: So he says like this.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: Um in in uh 30 in 131, he talks about um uh just the limitations of reason.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: Uh so then he says like this as you study this work, uh dear reader, do not uh sorry, do realize that our intellectual awareness being linked to matter is just as vulnerable to disruption as the senses.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so this is a big point.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: And he gives a great analogy.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: Your eye can see what is visible, but if you try to see something too distant or to read very fine script or engraving, you may strain your eyes and not just fail to make it out, but so injure and weaken your vision uh that you cannot see what you once could.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is I don't think he invented this analogy, right?
5:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh um what's his name?
5:32
SPEAKER_00: Socrates said a similar thing.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he said the thing, I think he uh in the first place, I read the thing about staring at the sun, um, which is a slightly different thing, but uh but the mushroom of like a faculty of perception, if used improperly, not only withholds the thing you're trying to perceive, but damages the apparatus.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, the same is true of thinking, as anyone pursuing a science will find.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: By fixating on a topic and overtaxing the mind, one can grow muddled and fail to grasp even what he normally would.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: All right.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: All bodily powers are alike in this way, and our intellectual apprehension is such as well.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: If you find yourself stumped by some puzzle and do not deceive yourself and convince yourself, okay, now this is this is where I want to go through different translations here, okay?
6:16
SPEAKER_00: Because this list, he's gonna say what not to do with your intellect and then what to do, and then what um what happened to Elisha Benavuya when he uh when he violated it, okay?
6:26
SPEAKER_00: Um so but the list is different depending on how you punctuate and translate it.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay, like in the so we'll read all four, okay?
6:35
SPEAKER_00: So Goodman, if you find yourself stumped by some puzzle, so that's the the scenario, and do not deceive yourself and convince yourself that there is a proof of what cannot be proved or rush to reject any thesis not disproved.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: So now you're you're confronted with two um opposite uh like extreme reactions.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: One so you're stuck, okay.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: One is you say there must be a proof for this.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: The other is you can't prove this, so I can't prove this, so I'm rejecting it.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay, now I don't know if he's alluding to the what's the central thing in the mora that is competing theses that both cannot be proven, that the mora revolves around.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: Especially in the second Caleb.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: Not that any of us have learned this thing, yeah.
7:23
SPEAKER_03: Oh, you mean about the universe being?
7:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: So my understanding is the Ramam holds that uh he Ramam held that the uh eternity of the universe uh cannot be uh proven, but nor can the creation of the universe, the creation of the universe, right?
7:38
SPEAKER_00: So we hold by the creation of the universe first because of Torah, and then what the Mora is trying to do is to argue that it's the stronger position, right?
7:45
SPEAKER_00: But so in other words, let's say you have a person who is perplexed, okay, and he he's confronted with is Aristotle right or is the Torah right?
7:51
SPEAKER_00: So if he says I must be able to prove the Torah's view, and in and in actuality it can't be proven, that's one false step.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: The other false step is well, since I can't um wait or rush to reject any thesis not disproved.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh or say, Oh, Aeroson must be wrong, right?
8:12
SPEAKER_00: Which is, you know, airstone is not disproved, but if you rush to reject it, okay, so that's that's uh one set of false moves.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: Okay, then he says, if you do not hope to know what you cannot know, okay, so that's another uh just going beyond uh beyond what can be known, then you have done all that a human being can do, and you will stand alongside Ruby Kiva, who entered sound and emerged sound when he pondered the matters, these matters of divinity.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that's uh just to go through the thing.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: This is what I'm planning to give Shire on tonight.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: So Arbitances of the parties.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, in fact, you know what?
8:44
SPEAKER_00: Let's just read it because I have to find it anyway.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: Um is in Hagiga 14 A or B.
8:52
SPEAKER_02: Uh quoted about that.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if you look at it inside, it's shocking, uh, because it's different.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: Did I write an article?
9:06
SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: I might have quoted I might have mentioned it, but I don't think I've ever quoted it even.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: Uh like in full.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: Um I think it's in 14K.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: So I'll tell you what's shocking to me here is um is there are two parts that people don't quote.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, there's the three three things that differ in the public imagination from or the common imagination or memory from the way it actually is.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: One.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: So I think what people remember is the four players that are involved, and then general descriptions of the fates.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: They don't remember the intervening thing about what happens when they when it says they first entered.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: They don't remember the exact wording of the fates, and then they don't remember, and this is the part that shocked me, the sukim that were quoted.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: So uh for some of them.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: So it's so here's here's our version.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, the Ramam has a different version, all right?
10:00
SPEAKER_00: Tan Rubanan, our baa nichnasul ba ba parde.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: That's also different, or for entered in parades, uh in the in the paradise of the worship.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: Elohane, ben Azai, Ubenzoma.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: Anyone know what their first names were, by the way?
10:11
SPEAKER_00: Same first name.
10:12
unknown: Shimon.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: Shimon, yeah, yeah.
10:14
SPEAKER_00: Um they're all names.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: Ben Azai Benzoma, Acher, all right, the other one that's been a buy Rabbi Akiva.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: Amr Laham Ribi Kiva.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: This is part people often don't remember.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: When you reach the the uh the stones of pure marble, do not say water, water, because it is stated in tahilim 101.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: So just remember that, guys.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: Okay, yep.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay, now here we go.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: Then Azai hitzitzvamis.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: Then Azai uh glanced, right?
10:55
SPEAKER_00: He teaches he he looked, he glanced and died.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: That part we remember.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: I did not remember this until I or I wasn't aware of it.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: Allah's, I think dying is bad, but Allah regarding him in the puzzle, says, Yaqar ba'ashem Hamavhs Allah Hasidav, precious in the eyes of Hashem is the death of his pious ones.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: So now you're in cut, like it I don't think you should die when you go in there, but like it's precious to Hashem and he's chasid.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, it's weird, okay?
11:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: Benzoma Hitz the Nifka.
11:25
SPEAKER_00: Benzoma gazed, and then either the standard translation is he became demented, like Rashi, Nitrifa Dato.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, that he uh his mind became scrambled, right?
11:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh the Rashbats seems to say it means he was stricken or impeded.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: All right.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Right.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: All right.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: So that's the that is one of the honey mushalin, okay, right?
11:50
SPEAKER_00: Not uh not ours, but the other one.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: Aher kitsit binatios, Akher mutilated the shoots, okay, which uh, you know, I think most people take to mean some sort of uh of heresy.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: Some say it means he killed the young Jedi, right?
12:06
SPEAKER_00: He he he he uh he killed the uh the Tamita Khhamim, young Tamita Khachamin, all right.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: Ribikiva Yatabashalam.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: Ribikiva went out in peace.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that's that's the actual midrash, all right.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: So um, so uh going back here, so that was Rabbi Kiba, and he says, but if you overreach or rush to discredit things not disproved but possible, okay, even if remotely, you will have gone the way of Alicia Akher.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that is, let's say in our in our example here, if you rush to discredit creation Yeshme Ayan, which is not disproved, but it is possible, or if you rush to discredit Eternity of the Universe, which is not disproved but possible, even if remotely, you will have gone the way of Alicia Akher.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: You will not just fall now.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: What happens to you?
12:55
SPEAKER_00: You will not just fall short, but turn wanting as can be, prey to delusions and prone to every sort of vice and ill, your mind distracted, it's light doused, just as all sorts of illusions appear when one's vision is sapped by illness or by staring too long at bright lights or tiny objects.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: So you become delusional, and it sounds like there's also some sort of moral corruption, prone to every sort of vice and ill.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: Okay, now let's just pause and just read uh Peinas' uh translation.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna read all four of them right now, um, but I just want to read it compared to another English.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: Okay, we're not gonna read the whole thing.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: Just um uh okay.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: He says for if you stay your progress because of a dubious point, if you do not deceive yourself into believing that there is a demonstration with regard to matters that have not been demonstrated, okay, so that's thinking that there is a proof for things that have not been proven.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh if you do not hasten to reject and categorically to pronounce false any assertions whose contradictories have not been demonstrated, so that's the rejecting something that is not absolutely impossible.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh if finally you do not aspire to apprehend that which you are unable to apprehend, you will have achieved human perfection and attain the rank of Rabbi Akiva, peace be upon you, who enter into peace and one out in peace, when engaged in the theoretical study of these metaphysical matters.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: If, on the other hand, you aspire to apprehend things that are beyond your apprehension, or you hasten to pronounce false assertions, the contradictories of which have not been demonstrated, or that they are that are possible, though very remotely so, you will have joined Elisha Acher.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: That is, you will not only not be perfect, but will be the most deficient thing among the deficient, and it shall fall, it shall so fall out that you will become overcome by imaginings and by an inclination toward things defective, evil, and wicked, this resulting from the intellect being preoccupied and its light being extinguished.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: In a similar way, various species of delusive imaginings are produced in the sense of sight when the visual spirit is weakened, uh such as uh in the case of as in the case of sick people and such as persist in looking at brilliant or minute objects.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay, now before we analyze, let's go one more thing.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: Now he quotes the other, the earlier honey pasok.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: About this it is said, Hast thou found honey, eat just enough, lest thou be glutted and vomited up.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: The sages applied that last to Alicia Aher, not like Argomara, right?
15:17
SPEAKER_00: Argomara applies it to um to Ben uh uh Ben Zoma, who went crazy.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that's interesting.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: Um and it was that footnote.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I think so.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: Let me just uh where did it go?
15:32
SPEAKER_00: Oh 152.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: Uh this verse is in fact applied to Ben Zoma into Septa Flagiga, and Yushami Flagiga.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: Oh, sorry, and uh okay, Ushami Flagiga applies it to Ben Azai.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: Ben Azai, okay.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, as do the Midrash Rabba on Song of Songs and Proverbs.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: We do not find any biblical warning applied explicitly to Elish Benavuya by the sages, but Maimonides takes it to apply to all three of Rabikiva's colleagues who entered the parties.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: Elisha called Aher, the other by the sages, shunning even mention of his name, was said to have nipped the young buds.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Um uh goes to the Euthyphro.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'll have to look that up for tonight.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh, the sages ascribe his apostasy to his pressing questions about the problem of evil.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: All right.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, fine.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, so that the sages, so he's right now saying it applies to Elisha bin Abuya.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, what a marvelous image comparing knowledge to eating, as I mentioned.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: So uh again, the this unit starts at 131.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: So 130 is uh eating as a mushroom for uh for knowledge.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: So, for example, I think that's where he quotes the um the Atsile bin Israel, uh, the uh who gazed at God and ate and drank.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: Ramam learns that as they they had some corruption of their knowledge, right?
16:45
SPEAKER_00: Because he learns that as a kid.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: Um uh and and I think I think he says there that that or implies that the reason why it uses that metaphor is because their their uh apprehension was tainted by their involvement in the physical, right?
16:59
SPEAKER_00: That's eating and drinking.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, like I don't think I don't think we ever describe Moshe Urbaino's knowledge as eating and drinking.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: In fact, we say he didn't eat and drink, but yeah, okay, right, right.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: So inciting honey, uh citing honey the most delicious food stuff.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh I wish we use the word food stuff more often.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: This is such a great uh um next time I go to someone's house for Chavez, such delectable foodstuffs, uh vic vic victuals, uh, but with a nature that makes one wretch and vomit if one has too much.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: This kind of awareness, we are told, in effect, um, sublime, awesome, and enlightening as it is, by its very nature, turns harmful unless one is careful to stop at the right limit.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: Honey, in due measure, is nourishing and delicious, but all that is lost by overindulgence.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: It does not say lest you be glutted and find it cloying, meaning like overly disgusting or sweet, uh, but lest you wretch and vomit.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: So we saw the Mi'iri say that, right?
17:49
SPEAKER_00: Which is that, and others, I think, that not just that you don't like it anymore, but you lose out on the nutritive uh properties that it has.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: Now, now he quotes our pasuk.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: The thought recurs when it says it is not good to eat too much to eat too much honey.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: And then also in uh Kohal 716, be not uh altis kakam yoser, lama tish uh uh tishomim, right?
18:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: Um uh this fanky says, Why lest you be confounded, right?
18:17
SPEAKER_00: Tishumim, shumim literally means desolate, right?
18:19
SPEAKER_00: Like uh like uh you know, uh like um right, like uh shonim, right?
18:25
SPEAKER_00: Uh and guard thy step on entering the house of God, also in Kohala's 4.17.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: David 2 touches on this theme, nor do I pursue things too great or wondrous for me.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh the sages voice the same idea do not pursue things too wondrous for you, or probe what is veiled from you.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: Explore what you may, but marvels are not your concern.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: Meaning, do not dwell on matters beyond your human beyond human ken.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: Ken Sinclair, uh fixation on things beyond meaning beyond uh beyond human uh, I think ability.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it's fine.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: Um fix actually uh I'm not gonna say define can, but yeah.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: Define uh no one can define ken.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: Define can.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: Um's range of knowledge, understanding, or perception, range of perception, understanding, or knowledge.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay, fine.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, never run rely on AI overview.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: Um I went to the wrong place.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: Um what were you gonna say, Moshe?
19:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: Um this is what the sages meant.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh, sorry, uh, fixation on things beyond the grasp of human nature is highly dangerous, as I explained.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: This is what the sages meant by saying, whoever contemplates four things, a pity he was born.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: Actually, it's a good translation of uh uh of that mission.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: What is above, what is below, what came before, what comes after.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: Came up with a noob shot of that last night.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: And summing up, whatever slights his maker's honor, better he were never born.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh, just the point I've been making.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: Do not chase a will o' the wisp.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: You guys know what a will o' the wisp is?
19:37
SPEAKER_00: Magic?
19:37
SPEAKER_00: Old magic card.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's it's a weird thing, okay?
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Will o' the wisp.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, it's okay.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: Um okay, it's a strange, strange thing.
19:48
SPEAKER_00: I I'd love to actually see this in folklore.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: Again, Zanny McClare is real, an atmospheric ghost light seen by travelers at night, especially over bogs, swamps, or marshes.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: Seems to be a question whether these things exist, right?
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, so like Merriam Webster.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: Actually, I yeah, I looked this up on um uh on Chavez in my physical dictionary.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: What was that?
20:10
SPEAKER_00: Will of the wisp is a flame-like phosphorescence caused by gases from decaying plants in marshy areas.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: In the olden days, the personified was personalized will will with the wisp, a sprite who carried a fleeting wisp of light.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: Bullish travelers were said to follow the light and were then led astray into the marsh.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: Um uh the light was first known and is still known as ignis fatuus, which in Latin means foolish fire.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: Eventually, the name will of the wisp was extended to any impractical or unattainable goal.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: So that's how Goodman is using it here.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, so uh do not chase will of the wisp.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: Um faced with our obscurities and unable to prove what you hope to prove, do not just throw up, haha, throw up your hands and careen into denial.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: Uh stand fast in deference to your creator's honor, check yourself and stop.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Isaiah.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, um I just I guess I missed a little bit of the flow of like he was talking about making particular mistakes, like um, and then he started talking about um like our process of like over in overindulgence.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, what was the connection between those two things?
21:09
SPEAKER_01: Like a registration right.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: So I think let's just read one more paragraph and then we'll go back and because it's the end of it.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: The point is clear now.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: Didn't you hear that, Isaiah?
21:18
SPEAKER_00: Our prophets and ages did not mean wholly H W H O L L Y to block the gateway to inquiry or bar the mind from grasping what we can, as the slack and ignorant presume, right?
21:28
SPEAKER_00: That's people who are like anti-philosophy, I guess, right?
21:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, who love taking their own failings and density for wisdom and insight, for wisdom and insight, and the wisdom and insight of of others for folly and irreligion, uh, taking darkness for light and light for darkness.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: That's a good application of that concept.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: The whole point is that the human reason that human reason has limits, but do not just pick at the language I use regarding reason in this chapter or the rest.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: My aim here is to advise you about the point at issue, not to analyze the nature of the mind, a subject to be addressed in other chapters.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: So, right, so so the question is what what is his interpretation?
21:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you see that just like the Miri, he does combine the honey psychukin, right?
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, not as like rigidly as M'Eri of being like uh three stages or three like uh areas of knowledge.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, what is what is his uh what is his main point here?
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh or how is he interpreting our project then?
22:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: Let's just quickly compare the um Uh teenage translation.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, in this regard it says, Hast thou found honey, eat so much as is sufficient to be lest thou be filled therewith and vomited.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: In a similar way, the sage said, uh uses about Akir.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: How marvelous is this parable, inasmuch as it likens knowledge to eating, a meaning about which we have spoken, also mentions the most delicious of foods, um, namely honey.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: Now, according to its nature, honey of eaten to excess upsets the somic and causes vomiting.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: Accordingly, scripture, as it were, uh says, as it were, that in spite of its sublimity, greatness and what it has a perfection, the nature of the apprehension in question, if not made to stop at its proper limit and not conducted with circumspection, may be perverted into a defect, just as eating of honey may.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: For whereas the individual eating in moderation is nourished and takes pleasure in it, if all goes, it all goes if there's too much of it.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: Accordingly, scripture does not say, Lest thou be filled therewith and loathe it, but rather and vomit it.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh, this notion is referred to in scripture in the dictum it's not good to eat too to eat too much honey, etc.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
23:17
SPEAKER_02: Because like there's a lot of to be aware of when you're learning it, and you might fall into one of the traps unwittingly if you're not going slowly and methodically.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: So that's a good question, right?
23:30
SPEAKER_00: So you're saying that sorry, so did you just say that the meaning that like the eating of it preoccupies you to the point where or the sweetness that you're eating preoccupies you to the point where you you don't exercise restraint?
23:44
SPEAKER_00: Or is that something different?
23:46
SPEAKER_02: Well, it could do that, like that is the danger of it because it's such um sublime things to learn.
23:52
SPEAKER_02: But um the danger is the danger is in the first part that we where he was talking about, like how if you don't uh if you think about things that you're not that you can't know or if you don't recognize your limits.
24:04
SPEAKER_02: Um so I think he's saying like like if you don't go slowly and be fully aware of those dangers while you're learning, like if going fast and trying to do a lot is going to lead you to make one of those mistakes.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:20
unknown: Yeah.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean the imagery I'm getting, and I know I quoted this anecdote in Mishlay before, but it's still I still get it.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: The memory I have the kid.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: Yep, the kid.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: This uh I have this distinct memory of going to one of my elementary school Halloween party, uh like uh elementary school Halloween, like um uh like fairs, Halloween, the carnivals, whatever it is, you know.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: And uh and there's this kid.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: I picture him as dressed in a skeleton outfit, but I think I'm mixing it up with that uh I uh I like turtles kid.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: But like that that's that that's how it goes.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: So we were leaving the the thing, and we see this kid standing like this over the the parking lot, and he just a stream of vomit just comes out, and then he looks up and goes, I eat too much Halloween Gandhi.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: That's how he says it, you know.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: So like that's the thing that the kid is doing, is just like you can see, you know, obviously the kid is not probably not aware that he's gonna vomit, but all like that you can vomit from that.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: But like there's also just no, I mean, the the adult adult equivalent is you don't realize how long it takes for the alcohol to hit you on purum, right?
25:21
SPEAKER_00: So you're you're imbibing and not feeling anything, but it's doing stuff inside, and then you hit the limit and then you vomit it.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: So I think like, and and I think this is the the trap.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: In other words, it is much easier to not eat any honey, right?
25:35
SPEAKER_00: But honey is good and it's sweet.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: So you have to exercise restraint when being involved.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I have a new idea now.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: You have to exercise restraint when being involved and be constantly monitoring yourself about how much of the knowledge you're partaking of and what your limits are, not fully knowing where your limits are.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's one of the tricks here is you don't necessarily, I mean, certain things you could know what you that what you can't know, right?
26:01
SPEAKER_00: Like malamala, malamata, malamala for, however you understand that, that is delimiting certain subjects that you can't know.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: But cultural chas al Kavot Kono, anyone who doesn't have pity on his uh on his intellect has more expressions than just those four.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the well, this is the the move I just made.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if this is a legitimate move, but why is it that if you overreach and you go like a Alice Minabuya, I understand how you will arrive at false ideas, but why are you gonna end up being um uh uh seized by an inclination towards things defective, evil and wicked?
26:36
SPEAKER_00: Or as uh as Goodman said, you're gonna get like uh you know, source every vice, right?
26:40
SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, not be turned short, but wanting it, be prey to delusions and every sort of vice and ill.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: So I thought that that meant that when you have false ideas, then your emotions will rush in to satisfy whatever tivas are fueled by those ideas.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: But what I'm I'm wondering is part of the failure to exercise restraint is a moral failing.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: In other words, why are you being driven to go beyond your reach?
27:12
SPEAKER_00: It's not just an intellectual mistake, it's a pursuit of pleasure of the honey, right?
27:20
SPEAKER_00: So I'm wondering if the same person who goes beyond their reach intellectually for the honey, that quality is making them prone to other vices when they go off the dara.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I'm just wondering that.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Isaiah?
27:37
SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say like a totally different answer to that question.
27:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that like maybe when a person is over involved in these areas, then like their their mental energy is too taxed to be able to use the rationality they need to make those decisions normally.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: That could be as well, right?
27:56
SPEAKER_00: That could be.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: Um I think the only thing, yeah, I'm less inclined towards that because it doesn't sound like this person is stopping because of uh of his intellect being taxed.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: In other words, it sounds like like Alicia Ben Buya went on to become a heretic, like like more like like you know, going further into that, you know.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: So, all right, it bears consideration, but now we've read the Ram Bam's interpretation of this, and and uh I again I plan to give share on this tonight, so I hope to develop it more.
28:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I wonder what you would say for the second half though.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh for the second half, yeah, correct.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: So so that is where Peskin mentioned that Rah Bag is trying to address that, right?
28:38
SPEAKER_00: But right, what would the Ramam say there?
28:40
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: Also, um, what does the Ram say about Ben Az and Benzoma?
28:46
SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: He was the guy that was demented, uh Benzoma uh went demented and then Azai died.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: So that's that he attributed that also right, but he still holds that the the Gemara says there are four fates, right?
28:59
SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah, yeah, right, right.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: So that's what I'm gonna address tonight because the uh the Rashvat in the Parish on the Haggadah of the Arbabani applies this to all knowledge.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean he applies it to special special knowledge, but he universalized it as four types of mind.
29:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he compared the four sons to those four people.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: It's very, very interesting stuff.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
29:20
SPEAKER_00: So because he can listen to the to the share uh when I when I post it.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is good.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: All right, so we have one more puzzle in the parak, and one more mishlay.