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The DeLaurance Company, Hoodoo, Voodoo & More · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen?
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: What?
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: What's going to happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: What?
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: Howl?
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Occult Rejects. In this episode, you got myself,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: JJ Vance and Jin the Ninja. Today we'll be talking
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: about the De Lawrence Company. Me and Jin and a
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: few other people have been kind of getting into West
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Indian magic and this topic fits in there in a
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: weird way, and I wanted to have Gin come on
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: and talk about it. And it's a topic that I
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: really don't know anything about. So this is really interesting
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: to me, and I got JJ Vance co hosting with me.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: So Jj, before we get to start, you know, the
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: show going, and before we introduce Jin, let everybody know
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: what your deal is. In case there's any new listeners
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: who don't know who you are, let him know where
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: they can find all you stuff.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Please appreciate, appreciate the invite.
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: Nick, JJ Vance, host of Operation GCD and Fridays with
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: the Occult Rejects every Friday night, YouTube Rumble and twixter
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: Uh and Uh Jen.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: Looking forward to the conversation.
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: I'm going to go with Nick on that and I
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: also don't know much about the subject.
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to hearing about it, and uh, I'm glad.
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: I'm appreciate you all invited me is the Chicago correspondent
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: in the conversation my least favorite city. Spent a lot
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: of time there. The politics are dirders in d C.
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: And uh, yeah, the Shenanigans are deep there in that city.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: There any of the d C. That's rough. The funny
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: thing is is that when I when you know, he
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: mentioned Chicago. That was even one of the reasons why
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: I even asked you to jump on. I was like,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: he might know some random thing that might fit into this.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: You never know, because I do know you. You do
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: know you know some stuff about Chicago.
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: And done a lot of business there, a lot of business.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So thank you very much. I'm sure I'm sure
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: you don't. That's how I feel about DC.
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: Right, done a lot of business there too. Also don't care.
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: To go back.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: But thank you very much for jumping on, especially on
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: such a short notice. I appreciate it. Man.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: Now looking forward to it.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, and finally to uh, the main the main event.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: The main guest Jin the Ninja. I'm sure everybody already
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: knows who he is, but in case you are a
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: new listener and you're not sure, Jin, please let everybody
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: know what your deal is and let him know where
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: they can find your amazing work as well.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: So sure, So thank you guys both for having me
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: on and Nick especially well not especially, but especially for
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: asking me to be like a homie that can you know,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: do a whole episode of like kind of as my
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: as my as a guest.
• 2:51
  Speaker 5: And thank you obviously jj I.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Every time we work together it's always like super we
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: have a really good like I don't know, we just
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: it's easy.
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: So sorry, sorry for sure, I second that Jen, I appreciate.
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: I always enjoy the conversation.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much, and so you can find
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: me Threshold Saints. An episode just dropped today on Donda
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: Dam which is an anime that's kind of taken Twitter
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: by storm, and I'm often on Twitter at Wukong Reborn
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: to b u k g Reborn and I do behave
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: I promise, I really I have reformed. So most of
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: the time I'll just post interesting metaphysical things in interesting
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: ways is what I sort of seek to do, So
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: follow me on there or ig and I do have
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: a link tree that needs desperately needs updating, so that
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: will happen this week.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Awesome, Thank you very much. And I'm pretty sure your
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: links are in there already, So yeah, everybody go check
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: this stuff out in case you have it. And now
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: the Lawrence Company, I mean, since it's your topic, please
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: take us away and let us know when made you
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: even come across this.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: So when we did the episode on West Indian Magic
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: or Obah, I actually had already done. It wasn't really
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: related to the episode that we did at all, but
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: I did an episode on the reggae sound systems, which
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: were these kind of like the mixtape culture that emerged
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: in reggae in the seventies and the eighties, and how
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: a lot of the people were had were ocultists. Then
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: they were consciously playing with the frequencies, the way the
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: sounds and the words and the sort of they would
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: like have different weird sounds as like pots and pans
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: and certain like frequencies and crystals and they would install
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: them on the street. So like if you're thinking like Crowley,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: he would have like those street battles between magicians. So
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: they kind of did do this, but they had like
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: huge speakers and they would kind of battle it out
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: in Jamaica, with these kind of like wrapping.
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: Mcs or these singing mcs, and they would do it
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: like to the reggae sound system.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: So basically I looked at like how Obia was exactly
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: dub exactly. So they would use the things, and then
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: the people would also know Obaia would also know magic,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: so they would kind of have magical battles in the street.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: And it was like the music or the sound was
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: a big part of it. And so you can't really
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: discuss Jamaican magic without discussing science. So anyone who is
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: familiar with Nick's amazing series on the Grimoires will know
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: that wisdom science is the more common word, or wisdom
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: literature as a broader category. People didn't used to think
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: of it as like occultism. It used to be just
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: part of natural sciences, natural philosophy, and it used to
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: be considered wisdom literature. Doesn't mean that you do everything
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: in it, doesn't mean you read pick a Trix and
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: you do everything in it. It's just wisdom literature. It's
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: just meant to expand your sort of knowledgeably universe. So
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: to sort of bring it back to de Laurence Company,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Do Laurence Company was founded in nineteen oh one. Now
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: I'm going to get back to this date in a minute,
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: because I know Nick, I could see, I could see
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: the spark happening. Nineteen oh one. It's an eleven, right,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: that's an interesting founding date. But so it was founded
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: by W. L. De Laurence or LW.
• 6:31
  Speaker 5: Excuse me, L. W. De Laurence, who was a.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: German American and he was a He was an occultist.
• 6:39
  Speaker 5: He was a serious occultist.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: He was involved in multiple like fraternal orders and like
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: probably all the you know, a lot of the I'm
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: sure JJ you will have something to say about this.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: But in that time of Chicago was like an Art
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: Deco kind of like or a pre like a little
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: bit pre Art Deco paradise, kind of a gangster's paradise
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: as well. So I think that there was a lot
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: of Egyptian kind of influence. Like That's also what he
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: got famous for was he published in eighteen ninety eight,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: so a little bit. But even before the founding of
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: his company, he published a book called the Great Eastern
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: Right and of Hindu Magic, which is now also called
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: the Obia Bible, which is the picture that I sent
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: Nick the Blue Book.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, I'll pull that up now.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: Actually, and so he published that in eighteen ninety eight.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: And although it is says it is Hindu in nature,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: it's actually not. There's actually really no West Indian there's
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: no Indian magic per se. Now, are there comparable ideas
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: between Tontra and Western hermeticism? Absolutely so, the Great Book
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: and magical art, Hindu magic and Indian occultism. Now this
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: book is original. Now there is sort of an internet
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: or maybe an occult or in the Greater Ocall community
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: that he directly one to one copied Agrippa's books of
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: accult Philosophy one through three, as well as Francis Barrett's
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: The Magus, which is an essay but also like it's
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: sometimes considered the fourth book of Agrippa, and he just
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: sort of remixed it and put it into this book.
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: Now, are there sorry?
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: Neck go ahead? That is funny. Now you would have
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: to hope that, like your students, never look any further
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: than you'll work. That's a ballsy move.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: Well, it is the rumor. So if you look at
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: if you look at The Magus one to one to
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: some of the essays that he published or that he wrote,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: supposedly it does seem quite different, now are there ideas
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: and certain like the sort of like okay, so when
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: the magus, they talk about the mage as the person
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: who walks out into the crossroads like specifically calls it
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: like the four quadrants of the world. And they themselves
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: are the fifth pillar or the middle pillar. So they
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: are the axis the plus ultra, that is, the ruler
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: of heaven and Earth.
• 9:06
  Speaker 5: Now his his book also discusses this idea.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Now, this idea is also found in sort of West
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Indian African magic and also TNTRA. But I actually think
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: that instead of looking at it as he necessarily borrowed
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: at one to one, maybe these are just this is
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: just a perennial sort of concept, like a cosmological construction
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: of the world of the ten directions. I know, I
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: said there's four directions, but really there's the up and down,
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: so that's two directions right there. But then you also
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: have the you know, northwest, northeast, southeast, and southwest, so
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: that's really ten directions. So you have this kind of
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: cosmological idea that kind of resonates throughout culture, throughout the
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: world's kind of it's not in fixed in time, it's
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: not fixed in space.
• 9:55
  Speaker 5: It kind of just transcends that. So this is a
• 9:57
  Speaker 5: picture of him.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: You can see he was said to be like a
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: high ranking I don't know, he said he was like
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: the Brotherhood of Luxore or something like that. Like it's
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: all like a Gyptien shit that I don't know about you,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: that's what he said. But you know all of these guys.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: So there's this idea of the snake oil salesman, which
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: I know JJ will have something to say too about.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: I think partly it's like a mythology that's built around
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: them much later on. I think in their time they
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: actually were looked at like great occultists, which I'll get
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: into later because definitely people in Jamaica really feared him
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: and thought of him interestingly as their guru.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: Did he make any claims of being Has he ever
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: been to Egypt?
• 10:39
  Speaker 6: Supposedly so, he just I don't remember if he specifically
• 10:45
  Speaker 6: claimed to have been to Egypt, but he specifically claimed
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: that he was visited by a secret chief.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: He was a high ranking order in the American Catholic Church,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: which sounds like, Oh, American Catholic Church. That sounds like
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: really normy, but it actually it was a viiritualist church.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: It's a it's a it's a church of the archangels
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: really to receive direct revelation from the for archangels and
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: from Mary or from God.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: So it's interesting how like I just the reason why
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: I asked is because uh Dwight York, I know how
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: like I think made claims of like going to Egypt
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: and like had some like he just like referred back
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: to Egyptian stuff too, and he was like a sneakel assalesman.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, there's it's like it's the we
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: were even talking about this pre recording.
• 11:31
  Speaker 5: There's like the whodoo current in American.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: Even in like people like to say, oh, it's like
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: this like syncretic slave religion. No, it definitely permeated to
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: the very top of occultism. You can see everybody kind
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: of drawing from it.
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: In male order. Whodo thing was very popular.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: It made many black millionaires and during this time, exactly
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: this time, it was very popular in the South. It
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: was very popular among white people as well. It's like
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: it transcended race into to a high degree.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Know, I don't know why it is, but even when
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: I was like in the magical community kind of like
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: when I was like active in the OTO and other things,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: people that made money selling stuff like that Who Do
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: and voodoo shits sold like crazy.
• 12:15
  Speaker 5: Yes, it's all industry tons.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: I mean you can go on it'sy or eBay. Finally,
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: the silliest spells done through who Do and Voodoo, and
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: I'm sure most of them are scams. Like I'm sure
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: you're getting something, but just.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's a lot of scam. Yeah, and so that's
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: part of mail order, but I think.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Even the spell itself is probably not even like spice
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: scam all around.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: I hate to say it, like this is the thing
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: whodo is meant to be, like even if you're not
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: like a magician, it's it's the system is the idea
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: is that you're supposed to go to the botanica or
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: go to the mail order or go to whomever, and
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: you buy, you get like maybe the shop owner helps you.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Maybe the shop owner is kind of like a sorcerer spiritualist,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: and so they help you choose the specific ingredients that
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: you'll need to accomplish your will or your work. So
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: it's supposed to be meant for you, it's not really
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: meant for you. To pay money to some card reader
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: so they light candles for you. Sure, can you amend
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: your stuff with that if you can go in person.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Now it's become like a large internet business, and like
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not trying to block anyone's like coin or whatever.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: But it does seem to largely be very fraud we
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: will say, and just probably a little less legitimate than
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: it should be. It just seems to be like something
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: that is both fraud and real, like a lot of magic.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, I totally agree with you. That's what I
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: was trying to get out. Really, Yeah, it just seems
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: like it's a It almost seems like something that's just
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: like a known go to if you just want to
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: try to make a quick book and that type the.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Seal because you don't need to be like particularly knowledgeable
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: about ritual magic, you don't need to be particularly knowledgable
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: about kuala, you don't need to be particularly knowledgeable about
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: anything in fact, because it's a very practical magic.
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: It's actually not a cosmological system.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: That sort of speaks back to the other point is
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: of like how it's a very American sort of like
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: it's a mixture.
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: It has like Jewish saw magic, which is kabala, but
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: it's practical kabala.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: And then it has like this books like this that
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: we're looking at right now, and it has obviously colors
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: and herbs and roots and like little tricks to like
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: do things like to employ the little packets that you
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: can make or the little curses that you can do.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: But it's not a sophisticated, broader system that really looks
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: like asks big questions of the world. So it's perfect
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: for anyone who already has a working system to then
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: sort of like learn about and then be like, oh,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: I'm going to apply these more higher order kind of
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: concepts to it will really like yeah, we'll see what
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: we can do with it.
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: I got a question for you, Jen, Sure, this all
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: sounds very interesting. How was this marketed? Was this kind
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: of an offshoot that America? I was listening to y'all
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: when I was clear enough, clear enough my starlink from
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: this from the snow drift, the you know, it sounds
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: like this American Catholic church that Old Boy was a
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: was a part of. Was this was this like some
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: sort of offshoot of that or was this a market
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: through that?
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: Like?
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: How why were folks drawn to this mail order magic system.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Well, he had infamy as an occultist for writing this
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: book initially, so that was part of his claim to fame.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Then he went to the US Patent Office in Chicago
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: and he looked at what patents had run out on
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: what i'll call properties that he had wanted, and so
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: he saw that there was a huge well me as
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: I said, there's it was a huge time for mail order. Like,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: if you weren't occultist, this is how you got it.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: There was no you know, there was there was nothing else.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: This is this is what it was. It was mail
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: order kind of sketchy, and even interstate mail order in
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: a lot of the Southern states was illegal. You can
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: find this a lot in South Carolina and Georgia, Alabama.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: They would arrest people for doing mail order who do
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: so really, yeah, it kind of was an So you
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: cannot sell magical services across state lines in some of
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: those states.
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: It's very weird.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: And so even if you were caught sending roots specific
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: routes like gin Singh in the South, or like they
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: use that a lot in Whodoo right, or like a
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: genreute a Hi John route, if you were sending those
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: you could be accused of practicing state crossing state lines
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: with magic, so that's kind of how would do it.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: So it is interesting in the Jamaican context, just looking
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: because we mentioned this, I mentioned this name the last
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: time when we were with our guest, is that the
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Duddy Bookman was actually Jamaican, but he was actually from
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: originally from Trinidad, but his parents were both Jamaican. So
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: his dad was a Jamaican like mestizo, kind of like
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: half black, half British kind of guy who was like
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: high class. And then his mom was half indigenous, half African,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: well not African, but she was like from Jamaica, from
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Trinidad and she so he was that's who sort of
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: initiated the slave riots. So you have to sort of
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: like look at that when that was okay, that's in
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: the very very late seventeen nineties. I think if we're
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: looking at it from like a broad history of like
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Caribbean magic, I think it's unquestionable that they were getting
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: a hold of some of these French grimois, like the
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: sixth and seventh Book of Moses, like well, not Long
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Lost Friend, because that would have been in Dutch and German,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: but that was actually being translated into English at the
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: same time and was a hugely popular book. It sold
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: millions and millions of copies in America, and so he
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: also jumped on that bandwagon where he was like, we
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: are going to We're going to start printing what is
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: John George Homan. So it's called pow Wow's Secret The
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Long Lost Friend. So it is considered to be a
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: book of Dutch Powow magic. I was going to say music,
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: but it's not really music, it's magic. But it was
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: not called pow Wow originally. It was actually just called
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Dutch Secrets of Dutch Magic. So they also used the
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Book of Moses.
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: So he was.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Definitely drawing from a Northeastern but maybe also Southeastern sort of.
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: Strain of American magic. So there's something very American about.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: All that touch magic was kind of big up there,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: like Pennsylvania area and stuff, like I mean, I'm sure
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: not everybody puts them there on purpose, but like I
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: even remember like going to certain areas where you would
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: see those, you know how, like they have the I
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: forgot the specific names of them, but they have those
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: sigils that they use that almost look like a mandela
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: m back in the day, they used to hang those
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: up on top of the front of their houses to
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: actually advertise that they're into that ship. And that thing
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: has become such a decorative piece that I don't even
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: know that people. You'll see that on so many fucking
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: houses in certain areas of like Pennsylvania and the United States.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: It's like, do you even know why that's there? Like
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: or or or is it actually that common? But like
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: you will see that a lot those things, and they
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: from just from what I know about it. Back in
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: the day, they used to hang them up and put
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: them like on their garage door, on top of their
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: peak of the house. So the ones it was like
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: a calling card.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: No, you're totally right, Nick, you for bringing this up.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: This is this is obviously from the Long Lost Friend
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: or Dutch power. So this is obviously Hebrew letters made
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: in like a jumbo. It's probably like a spirit trap,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: is kind of what I'm thinking. I don't know, that
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: might be wrong, but it is. It is something. So
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: you can say it's like for luck or for something else,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: but it's it's the It's so maybe they arranged the
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Hebrew letters in a specific kind of mathematical book of Moses,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: So it's those in a specific way.
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: So I don't know which one.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: This is the only ones that I'm actually familiar with
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: a couple of them specifically, but there was a lot
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: of them in this book. So this is a book
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: of pseudo Solomon and Nick wants to cover it, so
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: we probably will cover it eventually, and so yeah, we'll
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: save some things. But this is a really important book
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: for West Indian magic because this is kind of like
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: you know, Nick, you covered like the New Hobbyans and
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: like Brother Panic, and I've done that on my show,
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: like an episode about that, not necessarily the cult implications,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: but just how influential he's been on Black American folk
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: magic and just like the sort of like the magic
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: of the numbers, science of the numbers. I mean that's
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: also interesting too, talking about wisdom science, like the Black
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: American people still call it the science of the numbers.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: So this is something that I didn't well defined in
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: the last episode, which is totally on me. But there
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: is a difference between like science OBEA and nah which
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: is healing. So I did talk about it a little bit,
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: but there is a really important distinction. Science is the text.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: So everything that mostly is science. Either comes from physical
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: texts like the Bible comes from who do or not
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: who do excuse me, because from the Bible comes from
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: contra so actual text which we talked a little bit
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: about like this whole like Indian diaspora in the West Indies,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: or it comes from books like the e Ching or
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: the Qur'an. It depends on what island and what composition
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: the people are from, obviously, but anything that is a
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: text is science. But usually you cannot say you are
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: a scientist. So that's also interesting is that they would
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: call themselves scientists if they were only book learned, meaning
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: if they had undergone the sort of ritual component of
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: receiving the delaurance, specifically the Delaurence Company books. You would
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: have to receive them fully undergo the initiation in which
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: a gooetic spirit would maybe throw rocks on your house
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: in the middle of the night, or appear before you
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: or stand on your chest, and this would happen for
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: nine nights and so no, it sounds very creepy, but
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: they so they would say that if you got too
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: scared and you sent the books back, then as out
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: of respect, you would lose your refund. So that is
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: also interesting just from a commerce perspective, because it is
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: kind of a scam in a way. It's because even
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: the fear just putting the fear, like saying, oh, like
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Johnny from you know whatever town, like he you know,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: he got haunted by the books.
• 23:12
  Speaker 5: So then it spreads around and people don't know.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: If people are very superstitious, they just don't know, so
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: they all kind of believe it, and so they all
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: end up with these books that are like have this
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: reputation of like being very evil. Now, were they very evil,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Probably they're not. They're pretty tame by modern occult standards,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: to be honest, like a lot of older grimoires are
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: relatively tamed by our standards now, and so, but they
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: they do have transgressive ideas. If you were growing up
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: in like a very conservative like Anglican or Catholic island, yes,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: I mean the ideas of like practicing like ritual magic
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: with angels and demons and using the names of the
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: prophets to call them down, or writing sigils. But they
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: didn't just do that. They actually even the scientists, the
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: people that wouldn't say that they were practicing Oh yeah,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: they would incorporate. Nick even was talking about this, which
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: I thought was really interesting before, is that they incorporated
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: local herbs, local ingredients into their work, so they never
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: let the lack of European ingredients deter them, which I
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: always found very like interesting from a magical perspective, because
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: the one thing you hear a lot about magicians or
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: people who want to practice magic online is they'll always say, oh,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: I can't get this X, Y and Z. Well, yeah
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: you can. You can do whatever you want. You just
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: have to You just have to sometimes adapt. And so
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: I think that they were very masterful at adapting these
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: very like euro heavy text into a kind of working magic.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Now can you say it's like a village magic? Sure,
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: but you know they were using higher order concepts, like
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: deep concepts from you know, like Europe and Gooshia and
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: Noki magic, and they were using like this six and
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: seventh Book of Moses, like Nick Schoda or the arm
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: George Homan book, the Long While Psalm so you were
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: getting or the Long West friend excuse me. So they
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: were also getting this in Jamaica. That's what's really interesting too.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: So you have to think, like this is spreading throughout
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: all the Western world, and this is also spread like
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: the Henry Selligs or a Secret of the Psalms. Like
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: I got into an argument with this, like someone was like,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: that's not kabbala.
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah that is.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: That's practical kabala, like the recitation of psalms, and each
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: psalm is actually related to a sephara. So it's a
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: really interesting kind of like you can sort of reappraise
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: the history of magic, being like, yeah, this stuff was
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: like very alive. It was very People were definitely aware
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: of it, people were definitely practicing it. People definitely own
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: the books because they sold tens of millions of copies,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: and that company still exists today. Actually, it's really interesting.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: They sell jewelry, religious and magical jewelry.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Oh that's that is that the site, right I was.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: I was like, I'm dying, I'm dumb. That is funny.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna pull that up in a second. Something I
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: just wanted to add real quick, dit jin is that
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: even stuff with like him pulling from the Book of
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: Moses six and seven to me shows where his influence is.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: That's because that's huge, heavily within ceremonial magic, especially people
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: that like I knew that were big into This is
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: like hard to explain it. I can't remember the exact
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: I guess style of magic that would be considered, don't
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: I would be theatrical, but people who not necessarily use
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: the goatia, but use the angels and worked with the
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: angels and maybe slightly kind of use the goaisha here
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: and there. We'd be into the books of the Books
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: of Moses, the books of the Books of Solomon. You
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: know another thing too, I don't think most people realize
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: that the goyishia is like what like the fourth or
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: fifth book of a series, and there's like three three
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: books about angels prior to that one with demons, but
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: we we don't know about those. You know, there's already
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: a bunch of books that you were supposed to read
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: about angels prior to even getting to that book. Actually,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: and a lot of it is all this style of
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: art and symbolism. And I would even start saying a
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: little bit of a Nochian maybe influence with that style
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: of stuff. That to me, I would just think if
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: he was into the Book of Moses six and seven,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: this guy was into ceremonial magic, he wasn't Oh.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he definitely was and to you an answer what
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: JJ said before about the American Catholic Church, like they
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: were a block spiritual brotherhood, probably some kind.
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: Of Masonic block, Masonic offshoot.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: They were definitely related to the spiritualist movement of the time,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: which obviously included people from various magical societies as well
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: as the theosov Society. So we're definitely talking about someone
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: who was moving in those occult circles, particularly in Chicago
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: at the turn of the century.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: I was actually going to ask you about the Theosophical Society,
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: what kind of crossed therevers there, because they're big headquarterses
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: in Chicago.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I actually was hoping that you would be
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: on JJ specifically because of this. So it is interesting
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: to think about that it just burned down in North Hollywood,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: like the Theosophical Library and then yeah, yeah, to now
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: sort of like talk about this like the headquarters. Well,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: in my opinion, I love to hear what JJ has
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: to say about this, and obviously as well, but I
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: think that there's something really metaphysically interesting about Chicago and
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Art Deco architecture and how the city's sort of like
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: a has this reputation as like a war zone city
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: and as like a mafia city is like the I
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: think you said it jj like the dirtiest city in America.
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: I think that is long.
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: It's very filthy.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's sort of like an unofficial ruling capital.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Two of many sort of machinations in American politics.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: So you're right on target there, Jen, especially when you
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: when a lot of folks don't realize relative to American
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: paolitics and potentially, in my opinion at least, the cultism
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: amongst these crew Yeah, Chicago's the epicenter of activity of
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: the Obamas, Hillary Clinton's hometown, and you know other folks
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: in that orbit, and I think Clinton, you know, one
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: thing I ever looked there is the associations her family
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: has with the with the Chicago Mob. In fact, her
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: mentor was the bookkeeper for the mob.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: And I think that's no surprise because it's something that
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: you and I have discussed many times. It's something that
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Nick has discussed on the show many times, You've obviously
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: discussed on your show, and you've discussed it together. Is
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: that it is really interesting how the mafia is occult
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: like they are ocultists. Not every mafio, so every gangster
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: every low level guy is necessarily an occultist. High ranking
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: bishop is not like a magician, but there's enough that
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: they can lead and direct people to like their greater goals.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: It's all.
• 30:00
  Speaker 5: It takes, like ten in a society of like a thousand,
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: All it takes.
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: That's sure. I say, look no further than Hillary Clinton.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: She's she's a steeped in occultism from all angles. Her
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: family's all mobbed up in Chicago. Allegations that her father
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: was actually the underboss to to Compone and took over
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: once Capone went went to prison. These are some of
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: the stories I've gotten from some some law enforcement associates
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: in around Chicago, you know, high ranking former high ranking office,
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: you know captains in Chicago p D. I've told me
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: that story, so you know, I don't know, I put
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: a little bit away to it, you know, because again,
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: her known mentor, Saul Olenskey was mobbed up. Yeah, he
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: was mobbed up. He was a bookkeeper there for the mob.
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: So it makes sense to me that oh, Hugh Rodham,
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: Hillary's father would have then then be associated as well.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: But he she's a I mean, she she writes about
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: going to UH to do voodoo stuff in Haiti on
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: her honeymoon.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: She's she's been.
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: You know, there's all sorts of cultism surround the hillarylire
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: no different than the Obamas too.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: You know, it's so obvious to me that like Nick
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: was even saying this, I forgought if he said a
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: pre recording or right at the beginning, but he was
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: talking about how voodoo could almost be it's not a
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: novel system.
• 31:15
  Speaker 5: And he didn't say that's I'm not putting words.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: In his mouth, but there's an element to voodoo that
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: it makes so much sense to Like I'm gonna say
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: it like in a specific way, but I don't mean
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: it in a derogatory way. But a higher order ocultist
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: is going to instantly recognize very important, maybe secret things
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: in voodoo right away just from the iconography.
• 31:37
  Speaker 5: If you know a little bit of.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: The backstory, if you have some ceremonial or like deeper
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: O call knowledge, you're just gonna know. You're gonna see
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: like there's a red pillar, a blue pillar system, Like
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: there's all these syncretic saints that you know, Okay, yeah,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: I can actually make this work, Like you can see
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: there's a whole system there ye, like a magical reality.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: That was even the thing like, yeah, I was saying
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: that pre recording, and I think JJ you and seemed
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: interested by it. Is that I said just for myself
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: And again I really wasn't. It wasn't so much adhering
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: or using their system, but I was using it was
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: kind of translating it into ceremonial magic. I would take
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: a lot of I guess you would say, I think
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: it's who do. Some people will say voodoo is the religion,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: whooo is the practice? I don't know if people you know,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: if that's how you look.
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: At it, But is that the delineation I'm not people.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't don't.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: I would say that who Do's just the American version?
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Like yes, you could make you could make a like
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: a distinction like Nick is saying, like, yeah, you could
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: say that that's totally true.
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: I don't think it's much more complicated than that.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a real basic way of explaining it.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know enough, but I do think even myself,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: that's kind of a basic way.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: To certainly voodoo is like the there is a liturgical
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: element you could say, like you could say that like
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: chaos magic is to telema what like whodo is too doo?
• 33:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, but drawing from but not necessarily the same thing.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: But yeah, when when I was, uh, you know, it's
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: into ceremonial magic a lot, just because of the use
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: of so many oils and herbs and I and I
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: was into that just you know, for making incense and
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: certain things that you know, like if I wanted to
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: make certain tinctures or or like jars to just like
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: sit and like I guess like charge it with something
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: kind of like almost an amulet or a talisman, I
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: would actually kind of like use certain I guess who
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: doo recipes because they would translate easy over for me
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: with ceremonial magic because like basically it's all like all
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: the things in there are pretty much there to still
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: symbolize a planet or an element, and you can translate
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: that over into ceremonial magic easily once you start doing
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: stuff like that. I mean to be totally honest with you.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Even in seven seven seven early seven to seven seven,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: I think it might even include possibly like even have
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: a column for that. So that's like you you can
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: easily start seeing the associations once you look at it.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Certain even gods, and I would start saying, you know,
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: who do a voodoo like Papa Legba, certain people you
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: can see who they would translate over into a different pantheon,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: and then you could understand. And it's just like it's
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: kind of like a this like a like like a chart. Really,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: if you really want to get into it as a
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: ceremonial magician, you can start making charts and start seeing
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: how you could start equating things and who do a voodoo?
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: To me, was just very simple to equate over to
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: ceremonial magic into something that I wanted to do, even
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: though I wasn't doing a voodoo or whodoo ritual you know,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: So long story short, kind of explain myself.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: That was No, that was a great story, nick I.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: I totally agree, like one hundred percent. Like I'm not
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: necessarily like I'm not a ceremonial magician. I'd never pretend
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: to be. I'd never say I was, but I definitely
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: played a lot with magic, like it was definitely like
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: a prime focus of my life for many years. So
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: I would say that, like, yes, I have that parallel
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: experience of like translating voodoo which I never was into
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: sort of like the we'll call it a pseudo Catholic
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: sort of sinister left time path falsism frame that I
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: was trying to like see if I could synthesize at
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: that time. And so it made a lot of sense
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: to draw from Whodo especially or not who do excuse
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: me voodoo because a there's a huge West Indian population
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: in Toronto, super easy to go to a botanica get
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: what you need. And the iconography made a low sense
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: to me instantly I could see, Okay, there's a relationship
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: between this idea, this idea, this planet, this angel, this
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: thing this and the colors were very clear. It's not
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: like it's not convoluted at all. It's almost like you're
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: looking at the same system, just like slightly modified to
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: the existing culture. And I think Nick's also speaking to
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: that experience. So I think that a chaos magician, kind
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: of like reconstructionists or a ceremonial magician, can actually understand
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: a lot of what's going on there just from having
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: some basic knowledge on the occult.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: In my opinion, if you're a ceremonial magician who even
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: entertains herbs and oils, at some point, you're gonna still
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: looking at who risk because you're just gonna get bored,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: you know, because that's all the same shit. It's a
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: bunch of herbs and oils and crap.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: So I'll say this and maybe it'll be a little controversial,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: but that's okay. Is that is that I actually prefer
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: a lot of the who do recipes for like doing
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: that kind of like maybe low magic or that.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Like oh yeah, yeah, totally, yeah.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: I think it's superior and ye who'd agree with that?
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: And I think that it's more potent. And I also
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: think that the jars, that's something that who do gets
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: really right?
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Is like that, That's what I was talking about, like
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: jars what they call it.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the jars like souring or honey jars. I
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: think those are like a great I'm not telling people
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: to do sour jars when people don't do that, but
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: I'm saying that they are.
• 37:09
  Speaker 5: It is like it's a good low magic tool if you,
• 37:12
  Speaker 5: you know, want to learn something.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: That's actually a really good way to put a low
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: magic tool. Very well said, I mean that's what it is.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: Oh no the mean way. But no, no, no, not
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: even in the mean way. I know exactly what you mean.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: High magic and low magic. That's very like, yes, very easy.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: You know a lot of people who would normally use
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: that would not be setting up an altar and doing
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: managing rituals just to entertain a bottle, you know what
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like yeah.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: One hundred you know, no, no, Nick's totally right, and
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: like because like you don't need to invoke a spirit
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: for those you don't need to like know any special
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: there's no like special magic. You just you follow the thing,
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: you recite the song, you shake it on the appropriate
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: planetary hour.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: Like that's it.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: So you know, like that's a practical magic tool, like
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: just like Nick said, like that you can use. It
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: doesn't require anything.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Well, you know what the problem is is that that's
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: how at least it's presented as.
• 38:06
  Speaker 5: Well.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: Of course you can.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Make it really like amazing and you can like seal
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: it with planetary metals and.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, yeah, well I'll put it this way.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: People who are actually really practitioners of that stuff will
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: actually probably make a big deal out of it. Oh yeah,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: but it's it's easily sellable as you don't have to
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: do anything with this stuff except for just mix it
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: and say blah blah, blah blah blah blah.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: I mean no, you're totally right. It's just like, let's
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: let's be honest.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: I think that's kind of like the si off within
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: who do Oh yeah.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah it is. It's definitely like that. It's definitely
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: like the very it goes with that new thought, that
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: kind of manifestation thing. What there is something true about that.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: I'm manifesting today, That's all I got to say.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: Something kind of bullshit about that, like whole thing. It's like, yeah, yeah,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: you do co create your reality. But like maybe it's
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: not like, uh you know, maybe that that kind of
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: like weird consciousness that they tell people like that very
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: tipherotic kind of like I Am the savior of like
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: the world's like thing, Like, I don't know if that's
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: that useful, that is what I'm saying.
• 39:10
  Speaker 5: So yeah, I agree with that.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Is like, you know, just because you can like maybe
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: influence someone to give you a phone call, like that's
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: not that you know.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: Oh no, that's that's basic black magic, right then.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not impressive, No, not at all.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: You could just be a manipulative motherfucker gets something.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like you can do the same thing with magic
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: that you can do with words. If you can do that,
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: then that's nothing.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: You could text somebody high and make them call you.
• 39:36
  Speaker 5: That's right.
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: Sure?
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Is that that? I mean? Come on, No. And the
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: reason I'm evenen cracking up so much is because, like,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: it's kind of funny what you say, Jimmy, because I
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: remember when I was when it was very like actively
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: kind of within the community. It was just there was
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: a lot of silliness that kind of went around this
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: type of stuff. That's part of it.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: I think that's part of why his whole reputation was
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: as like a snake oil salesman or a con man.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: And why he even has that reputation for stealing the
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: magis is because he did take all of these things
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: into like these things that were in public domain and
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: he put them in popular culture, and he was obviously
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: making a ton of money doing it. Maybe he was
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: like a mob Like I think what JJ said actually
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: goes along with like the story of him and what
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: occultism in Chicago at that time was, which was the
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: center of American occultism. Everybody like, I'm not putting down
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: New York Knicks on the stream. So obviously it's a show.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: But I'm not in New York anymore.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: But but I think you could argue that there were
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: two main capitals of occultism in America, at least at
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: this exact moment, one of them would have definitely been Chicago.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: I would I would argue that that was probably true.
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it still is right.
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: I mean, you got the there's a large Theosophical center there,
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: you got the Behi faith headquarter there.
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: That's oh there, yeah, there's there are super interesting bunch.
• 41:02
  Speaker 5: You know, it's like this. You see this a lot
• 41:05
  Speaker 5: with Theosophy.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: This kind of like offshoot religions that are kind of theosophical,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: but then they're kind of like their own thing. Like
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Alice Bailey, she was kind of like the perfect example
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: of like an offshoot theosophist, Like they take an idea
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: that he is kind of like half baked to begin with,
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: but there's something, Yeah, there's something interesting there, like yeah,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: there's something interesting. Like I'm not a racialist or like
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: an identitarian, so I don't really you know that that
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: root race stuff.
• 41:28
  Speaker 5: That doesn't really I don't know.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: I think that's kind of weird and bullshit, but that's
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: just you know, that's just you believe what you want, sure,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: but they then they take it and then they go
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: to like this really weird extreme and then all of
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: theosophy then gets tainted by these like kind of really
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: weird concepts and and like, I think theosophy at its
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: root was just really about like looking at the different
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: systems and seeing if you could put it together into
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: something interesting. Now, do I think they made some errors
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: when they did that?
• 41:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: Do I think that they should have like worshiped kid,
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: like a twelve year old little kids like the Kumara
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: and like set up this whole like moonchild complex, that's
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: what I'm calling it. No, I don't think they should
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: have done that because I don't think Krishnamurti was the
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: moonchild then, nor do I even think that it matters, frankly,
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: And I think it was like a weird theosophy thing.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: And I think it goes along with what you say
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: JJ about like alien cargo cults, is like they don't
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: need to do that, just like just just be normal.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: You can, you can talk to siosity, but just like
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: also be normal.
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: At the same time, I was like, that's a good point.
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: I was wonder of these folks had any alien bent
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: to their their situation. Because what you're describing earlier when
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: I was, when I stepped away, it sounded a lot
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: and I think Nick brought it up about Dwight York
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: sounds a lot like more science temple stuff, especially when
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: you're recovering Jen the term that they don't call themselves
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: scientists but refer to it as science just and uh,
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: you know, obviously more science science. Dwight, Yeah, Dwight York
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: got a lot of his stuff from.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: More science mathematics.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: Mathematics, No, definitely, they were definitely so when they're they're
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: drawing on the same thing. And this is the interesting
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: thing is that you had a lot of Jamaican people
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: moving to New York in the nineteen thirties, or a
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Nil Hurston who.
• 43:12
  Speaker 5: Was a she was the whatever the FDR program.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: They supported her and gave her like a ton of
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: money to go publish books on hoodoo, voodoo and obia.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: So she went down to the Bahamas, down to Georgia, Florida,
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: all the like these like hotspots and also Jamaica's She
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: wrote like actually quite a good book on Jamaican Obiah.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: And now a lot of people don't like it. Because
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: they're saying, oh, she's like not really interpreting it right,
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: because you could see how much the system had degraded.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: So I think there's also something interesting with that where
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: it's like you can see how these sort of like
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: ideas they they they start off really like maybe you know,
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: they're like very African, they're very like temple, they're very
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: like music drums, like they're doing like a whole ritual.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: But then when you're writing about it in like the thirties,
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: it's really turning. It's turned into like a very like
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: this loan magician on the mountainside in Jamaica, and he's
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: like doing like the I forgot what it's called the
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: exercises of loyala Saint loyla of ignatious. Like they're doing
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: these like really tough spiritual exercises. They're doing like crazy
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: sort of fasting. And so that's really what it turns
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: into is that it wasn't really like super wasn't the
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: same kind of magic that we're talking about with the
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Lawrence Company.
• 44:37
  Speaker 5: So I think that also answers your question is like were.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: They alien religion worshippers. I think by this point you
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: could say that their highest order thinking was that there
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: were angels that they were invoking directly into themselves to
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: then give gospel to the the dirty masses basically, And
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: so the American Catholic Church, there's some discrepancy of whether
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: it exists or doesn't exist anymore. Now it seems to
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: exist in a fashion in a sort of like a
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: black charismatic West Coast context. So I think this also
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: goes along with what you were saying about like brother panic,
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: because we know that there's just like so much discrepancy
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: and overlap between like the West Coast gangs and the
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: East Coast gangs and some like they were drawing from,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: like one is clearly more Islamic and one is clearly
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: more drawing from this like drug store.
• 45:32
  Speaker 5: Who do Jewish tradition like the Kabbala stuff.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: You can see that there's like a more Islamic oriented
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: one with the numbers because they use the Arabic numbers.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: So when they're saying like different things like if I
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: look at her and even Nick looks at maybe Nick
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: is because he's more experienced and a little older than me,
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: he just knows like he can look at them and
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: be like, Okay, this is from Islami magic, whereas me,
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: when I look at it, my only reference is like
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Tntra or Kabbala, So I might not actually even know
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: what they're talking about a lot of the time, and
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: I don't see there's like a clear delineation where I
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: can see they're talking about Arabic numerals and like the
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: Arabic sort of understanding, which is quite different, and that
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: or when they're talking about the Hebrew sort of wisdom
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: or the Hebrew science behind the numbers, like I can
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: tell which one they're talking about.
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, So what do.
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: You mean they don't No one knows of the American
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: Catholic Church still exists.
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: So you get funk at some specific time or is
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: this a this is another myth of another cult formerly existing,
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: like the processed Church to spend it in nineteen seventy
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: style myth.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: Okay, so this is really interesting because where did this church?
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: They didn't sign their like their confederation documents.
• 46:45
  Speaker 5: I'm not using the right word. I apologize.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: They did not sign that original document in New Orleans,
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: but their dissolution was supposedly in New Orleans. So when
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: I read that, I instantly thought of you JJB. I
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: was like this is like this is like processed church,
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: like one hundred percent.
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: It's international waters down there in Louisiana.
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: I'm telling you, they got as the follyonic laws. For
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: some reason, folks feel like they can there's some sort
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: of attraction with these cults. It seems to incorporate down there,
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: because there's a number of other cults that have done
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: that there and around New Orleans.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: You know, there's this idea on Canadian parapolitical Twitter that
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: I'm going to bring it back to New Orleans. But
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: there's an idea on Canadian parapolitical Twitter that Canada was
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: actually supposed to be incorporated into the Louisiana Purchase. So
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: if you kind of understand are very specific, very like
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: we'll call it Lumberjack conspirator sort of ideas. There is
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: no actual proper confederation documents because the British sort of said, oh,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: they're in these treaties, the number of treaties and then
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: these swamp of belts, so we don't actually have like
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: a tangible set of confederation documents. They're kind of all
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: they're kind of these different pieces of it exist all over.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: So the Louisiana Purchase would have been our confederation document
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: at least for the Canada that existed French Canada at
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: that time. So it's it is kind of interesting because
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: now that Trump's saying that we're, you know, we're the
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: fifty first state. I'm just saying, it would kind of
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: be the manifest destiny of French Canada in many ways
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: to sort of return to the US. I just it's
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: an interesting idea.
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: I like it, but sorry, no, it's it's but it's
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: gonna be it's gonna get a while from here, whatever
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: goes on, right I.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: Mean, I'm you know, I'm like, I think it's cool.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm going with it. We're just riding with
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: it right now. And you know, it's all We're just like,
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's an incredible time to be alive. It's exciting.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: It's kind of nerve wracking, but like I'm trying, I
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: don't really let it affect me. I Just'm like, yeah,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: there's you know, the conservative Canadian Twitter is so embarrassing.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: They just like it's like Bloomer tier like Facebook, like
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: they just don't really know what's going on. Then there's
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: like this other group like me. They're like all these
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: dissident people who are like, yeah, let's just like let's
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: just merge with the US, Like who cares about Canadian
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Twitter or pull up politics anymore, Let's just go with it.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: So I think that there's like this libertine element that
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: you're kind of even speaking to of like what is
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: international waters and why is it centered around these this
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: area with Napoleonic sort.
• 49:29
  Speaker 5: Of admiralty law?
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think that there is something like
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: it even to go back to like the French stuff,
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: Like we know even in the Caribbean, there's this huge
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: division between like the French Islands, the Spanish Islands, and
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: the English Islands, and there's almost like a racism between them,
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: right right. So I think that it even speaks to
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: like this kind of thing like what are we watching
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: play out? Like a lot of this is like old,
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: It's like we've seen this already play out. And I
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: think that's actually part of what the Dolaurance Company sort
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: of like did, is they were to spread a certain
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: kind of European thinking of your of like more and
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: we were saying American more of like maybe the American
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: brand of occultism. That's what they were supposed to spread
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: to the English speaking islands, because it is really interesting
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: that in also in nineteen oh one, so the date
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: of this company's founding, there was a bill passed in
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: Jamaica's parliament called the Anti Obeia Legislation, which made it
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: a crime to actually possess any book that was published
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: by the Dolaurence Publishing Company.
• 50:41
  Speaker 5: So it's really.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Interesting that like the date coincide, so they're clearly what
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: we could even be looking at JJ. I'm just going
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: to go there next because he brought JJ ads just
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: going to go full conspiracy. They I think that we're
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: looking at like American ocultists are trying to spread American
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: occult ideas, like what their frame of the ocult is,
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: which is like in a curation of these books and
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: like the Obaa Bible and all of these things. But
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: I think even in the sort of naming of them,
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: like the even calling it the Obaa Bible, they know
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: they're going to speak to a West Indian audience with that,
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: but they're also going to speak to like an American
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: audience who's hungry for those West Indian ideas because there
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: is like a large part of the ocall community who loves. Uh,
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: we'll call it exotic magic system.
• 51:29
  Speaker 5: They're just it. I'm like that too.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: I think everybody has like their thing where they're like, yeah,
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: sometimes it's really interesting to look at what these other
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: people are doing or this other thing, or maybe that's
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: like your we would say in Buddhism, that's.
• 51:41
  Speaker 5: Like your dharma.
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: That's what like you.
• 51:43
  Speaker 5: You see that, you see those crazy images, and that's
• 51:45
  Speaker 5: what gives you understanding.
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: You know, that's less sense to me, especially when I'm
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: looking at this Egyptian iconography, because you know, grown up,
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: grown up Mormon. Obviously, that was something Jesse Smith incorporated
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: and his ceremonial magic, the Mormon system there, and he
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: so I think that's one thing that attracts a lot
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: of folks when they're the missionaries are going now, you know,
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: all this Egyptian iconography speaks to folks, at least on
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: a subconscious level. I maybe that's just my perception of
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: it because growing up Mormon, I remember looking at you know,
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: I have to carry my books every Sunday to the
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: church and whatever other days of the week and going there.
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: But in one of the books, not just the Book
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: of Mormon, there's a number of volumes that comprise your scriptures.
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: I believe it was the Pearl of Great Price, and
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: it's got like, I don't know, pages of Egyptian you know,
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: nonsense going on there which I don't remember what. I'm
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: not even sure it tells you what it is, to
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: be quite honest with you, I remember as a kid.
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: I'm like, well, this is cool. I'm just going to
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: scroll through these pages for a while.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, sorry, JJ I just want to jump in, Nick,
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: do you want to say anything about the image, because
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: there's something interesting.
• 52:52
  Speaker 5: I think you see it too.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: I'm like laughing at just that's my opinion that listen,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: people listening and watching, you have a chromacross a website
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: that has some shit like cleanse yourself in your environment
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: and protect yourself and your loved ones and manifest loves,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: success and prosperity. They're selling you bullshit?
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: Is that the secret?
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: It's a scam. So please, if anybody ever comes across
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: the site that's that's pitching your ship like that, just
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: x out of it.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: I do think it's interesting. They're using a seal of Moses,
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: so that key thing is like a symbol.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Oh is it?
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of the that's one of the seven seals.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: I don't remember which one it is because I don't
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: have the memory like I know the Solomon Seals. Like
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: if you ask me, like which one does what I
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: can tell you the seals of these ones I don't
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: know from heart, but I have a general feel for
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: some of them.
• 53:50
  Speaker 5: But this is definitely one.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: And then I think that one thing that Nick was
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: saying that's true is like, yeah, it's a scam, because like,
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: what does that even mean, like cleanse your space, protect
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: your loved ones, invoke fortune, Like that could mean like
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: fifty things to like fifty different people. That's not that's
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: like the most a specific advice you could ever give.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: But I think that there's something interesting because it ties
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: in with de Lawrence. He maybe ghost wrote some of
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: the American New Thought books. So this is interesting because
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: we know that there was some kind of competing CIA
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: MI six publishing, and people will be like, oh, those
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: are just the same thing, But actually this is like
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: the like JJ can tell you, this is the pre
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: war or the post war kind of like the guys
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: who were like company men, who weren't necessarily like out
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: to destroy the world. Whatever that even was. I think
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: they were actually like looking like we're just furthering American interests.
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: So the idea was like we're going to put out
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: like an American sort of new thought system that's going
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: to counter this kind of like the six is. JJ
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: and Nick Can both discussed this extensively. Is that they've
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: really they get very fixated on transgressive magic. I'm not
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: saying the CIA didn't have many programs that they clearly
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: were as well, but I think if we're looking at
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: like the broader scope of Western magic, I think that
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: I six has clearly gone down darker roads for much
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: longer and more of them. Not I'm not justifying anything.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying anything is good. I'm just I think
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: that you know, even from the from Kalikola, from like Caliitontra,
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: I think it's very obvious that there were people learning
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: at the highest level of Calitontra during like the you know,
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: British rule of India, and I think that was also
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: true for the Caribbean. And I think that's also true
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: for what the Dolaurnce company was doing and why they
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: got outlawed. Because you even see a difference like a
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: lot of the French Islands do not even know of
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: the sixth and seventh Book of Moses. It's a very
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: uncommon book for certain linguistic groups. And you see this
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: also with certain ones that are more popular in French
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: and Spanish magic. You have like the Petit Albert that's
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: a much more popular French and Spanish formore than it
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: is in English. Fact, it wasn't even I think the
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: Steven Skinner was the first one to do, like the
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: major translation of that didn't happen until like the two thousands,
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: if I remember correctly.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: That might be in christ Evin Skinner. I haven't heard
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: that name in a minute.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: Well, there's all the Thosese, there's all these he's a major,
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: I would say.
• 56:24
  Speaker 5: He's like, would you say Nick, He's.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: Like, yeah, he's known. Yeah, he's got like his own uh.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: I think his own version of seven seven seven as well,
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: his own associations were. It's pretty deep.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: And he did all these translations and kind of like
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: he did a seal of Solomon version and his version
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: is like if you ask people who work the keys,
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: they will tell you like his version is the most complete.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: He sort of filled out some of the Hebrew, he
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: fixed some of the way the sigils looked. And he
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: also sort of retranslated it from the original German I
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: believe it was, instead of just translating it from like
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: a French translation, which was the typical standard. So he
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: actually went back and found like a much older version
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: in German and was like, we're going to actually fix
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: us for like an English speaking magician. So he's I
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: would say, he's quite well regarded.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah, he's known of the ceremonial magic community
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: for sure.
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: And he's still alive.
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: He's deceased.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: Oh no, no, he's still alive.
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, z oh, Okay, it's not.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: About trying to get him on the show. But I
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: have no idea.
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: There you go.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. It's funny. Somebody else has a They
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: have a thlemic podcast just had him on recently and
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: I was like, God, damn it, how do I I'm
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: trying to get them to like get me in touch
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: with them, but they won't answer the d MS. So
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: I'll try.
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you'll have that. So Jenna I liked the idea.
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: The next warning the Western magic to these to these
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: island nations, you know, and it's interesting, especially when you're
• 57:59
  Speaker 4: talking to spooky too relative to Chicago. That's Chicago is
• 58:03
  Speaker 4: the epicenter still is in some part, but you know,
• 58:07
  Speaker 4: especially in years past, before the age of the interwebs,
• 58:10
  Speaker 4: Chicago is the epicenter of all publishing activity in America.
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: So basically everything that's getting published, you know, actually printed,
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: is getting printed out of Chicago. I mean, you know,
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: you'll have your New York, New York papers and stuff
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: like that, but any kind of periodicals, a lot, you know,
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: a lot of a lot of syndicated newspapers and stuff
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: get printed out of Chicago.
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: You know, all the pornography industry.
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: Playboy Mansion may have been in Los Angeles, but the
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: Playboy and you know hustlers getting printed out of Chicago.
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: So very very you know, this is that's a long
• 58:40
  Speaker 4: standing thing though, for Chicago being the epicenter of all
• 58:43
  Speaker 4: these books and periodicals and whatnot. So that's you know,
• 58:46
  Speaker 4: that's what spooks you know, gotta they got to get
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: involved in those activities. Anyone who thinks that the CIA
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: hasn't been, you know, deeply involved in the you know,
• 58:54
  Speaker 4: printing and publication in America's they're mistakes.
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: They're deeply mistaken.
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: You know, it's a industry that the well before the interwebs,
• 59:02
  Speaker 4: they're you know, they're getting involved in the dissemination of information.
• 59:08
  Speaker 5: I mean, that's the most magical thing you can really do.
• 59:11
  Speaker 5: I mean I spoke about this with Nick on his episode.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Is that, like the he was we were talking about
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: something that we actually speak on relatively often, is like
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: Crowley and how he kind of would have magical experiences
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: or like retell certain stories in a specific way or
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: at a specific moment, so he kind of re narrates
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: what's going on.
• 59:34
  Speaker 5: But in the way that he's.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: Doing that, that's a magical act, Like he's doing a
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: magical ritual if you believe it. Like if you take that,
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: even if you don't believe, you can say it's total bullshit.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: If you remember that story, that's in a way of
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: magical act because he's implanting I'm copying Nick like verbatim here,
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: He's like implanting an idea in your mind that you
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: will carry through space and time.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: Especially if you never know of it before. You just
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: give you an option or an idea.
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: You know that.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: That can be powerful if you remember it. Hugh Gin,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: there was something I was going to ask, oh, do
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: you think there's anything specific, because there was some people
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: asking him in the chat. Well, the key you did
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: say you thought was that's from the Book of Moses, right,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: you said one of those.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's definitely from the Book of Moses. I
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: could actually even figure out which one very easily. I
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: just have to look at my copy.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: And then the stuff in the background. Do you think
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: any of that hieroglyphics or this, these whatever engravings, do
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: you think any of them are specific for something?
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: I'm sure that yeah. Well, I mean even the color,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: like the black and the yellow, it's very like I
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: would say, it's like very gin of the sun, not
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: my name, but like a gin the d it's very
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: gin of the sun.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 5: But you can also.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there there's something that's solar but also fixed and
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: place like something that's really holding it there, crystallized. You
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: could even say, I think that the background is really interesting,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: just because like I'm the Egyptian stuff doesn't for whatever reason,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: it has no effect on me.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 5: I never remember it.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: I've listened to like Nick and Robbie discuss it a
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: million times, literally the same episodes ten or fifteen times.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: I could not tell you the stories over again. For
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: whatever reason, they just don't stay with me. So I
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: don't know them, but I'm sure that they are metaphysically significant.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: And I also wanted to shout out Chad. He did
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: ask like the use of herbs in science or obea.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: So they do have a really interesting doctrine of signature
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: system is what they would call it. Doctrine of signatures
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: is both a medical and well it's not considered medical now,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: but for most of medical history it was considered a
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: medical thing. It's like the sort of nature of the
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: plants would actually correspond to like an organ, a planet metal,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: and then you would be able to also test the
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: plant and then you can find like trace elements, like
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: every plant has trace elements, Like nettle is very high
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: in iron. So nettle is always considered a marshal plant
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: because it causes rticacia, which is like redding.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 5: It's very.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: It's a very marshal, it's a very it just has
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: the nature of marshal. That would be its doctrine of signatures.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: It would be like an outward expression of what it
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: is metaphysically, it's basically what it is. So they would
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: just like Nick was saying, like they they can a
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: retrue magician can look at the herbs that they're using
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: and sort.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 5: Of I'm not saying it's like easy.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: I'm saying that there's a way that you can look
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: at herbs and kind of recognize our nature and be like, yeah,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: this actually makes sense. You can relate this to this planet,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: this thing to this, this scent to this, so then
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: you can use their system. So Jamaica actually is one
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: of the most biodiverse places in the Western Hemisphere, if
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: not the most. I think it's actually Dominica, so not
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: the Dominican Republic, Dominica. So Dominica has its own teeny
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: little English speaking island where they also practice obeah, very interestingly,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: and they also grow a lot of chocolate, so also
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: very interesting. So also it's important to note that we're
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: talking when we're talking about the islands, and our guest
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: brother next guest brought this up the last time abdatarian
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: Matt is that he said, well, Trinidad's had this ruler,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: this ruler, this ruler, like all these European countries. That's
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: the same for every single one of the islands. So,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: like to go back to something JJ was saying, like
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: spook activity and publishing. Yeah, you're probably going to have
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: different waves of published materials coming from the different factional magicians,
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: if you want to call them that. There would be
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: different kinds of things is popular at different times depending
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: on who is the governor of the of the island.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, especially, I mean that's kind of those islands are
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 4: still run the day, right, Like Haiti's kind of the
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: same way, right, Like their dictator is kind of some
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 4: sort of magical wizard.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 5: Right. So this is really interesting.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: It's always fascinated me. It's fascinated me because voodoo is
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: very fascinating as a religion.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: It just it just is.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 5: I just I know a lot of people have very
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 5: negative feelings.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying it's not a I'm not saying
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: it's necessarily positive or negative. I probably think it's positive
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: or negative, largely because I think you have to look
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: at a religion by how it bears fruit and the
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: place that it's from. I don't know if it necessarily
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: for the best fruit, but you know, I think it's
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: a system though. It's very interesting. So they've always had
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: a magical system, a fraternal order magical system in Haiti sense,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: liberation and so that even brings it all the way
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: round to Duddy Bookman. So Duddy Bookman was definitely drawing
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: from these English occult ideas, but he was bringing them
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: into Haiti. He was bringing them into that French health, fire,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: libertine and plus the Africanized system. So that's what's really
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: interesting is right in the earliest days of the Haitian
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: Republic you have this synthesis, this kind of merger of
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: different magical systems. And then after the supposed liberation of Haiti,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: they actually had no French born priest for two hundred years.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: So the Haiti chained all its own priests in a
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: Masonic system, specifically Masonic, and even the name of the
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: school was called like a cold Massonique or something like that.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: So is voodoo and masonry kind of kind of mashed
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 4: togethers out was that we're talking?
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in Haiti, I would I would absolutely argue that
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: the both of them are intermingled to a high degree.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 5: Now are they, Like, is it like black Lodge masony Okay?
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: Sure, Like I wouldn't be able to tell you, like
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: what the specificity of it, but is that is it
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: mixed in?
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: It can be it can be mixed in just because
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: people recognize like red and blue and white and they
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: kind of know that that's really magical, so they'll like
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: borrow those kind of like external we'll say, couplistic ideas,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: like Nick was even saying this, like how people will
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: hang the pentacles or the sigils in like the Dutch Pennsylvania,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: but they don't necessarily.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 5: Know it's like super magical.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: But yeah, you could just borrow the idea because you
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: heard someone else say it's really magical.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: More of a folk tradition at that point, is what
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: you're saying.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly exactly.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: And I think that's the one of the problems with
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: voodoo is because it's spun out into so many different houses,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: and that's what they call them. So every house sort
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: of gets its own rules and they can sort of
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: rewrite them from scratch almost, but they have to follow
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: certain surgical guidelines. But then they have like different families
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: is what they call them, of spirits or law or
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: which can also be translated as the French for law.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: And I don't necessarily agree with that. I don't disagree
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: with that, but it's just one sort of interpretation of
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: the name, but they can if they work with certain spirits.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: Their whole purpose is to be very unconventional or transgressive.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: So I think this actually even speaks to like the
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: scientology process difference. Like there's houses that clearly focus really
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: on what we call white magic, like healing protection, like
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: road opening is a big one now Veray Camino. But
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: then there's like ones that specifically focus on like black magic.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: We're going to like be the dominating force. And then
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: I speak that is like to your question JJ is
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: about the sorcerer king. So they've always had a sorcerer king.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: It's inescapable in Haiti to be an n position of power,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: influence financial or political, and not have association with Uh
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: you could say a faction of these houses of these
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: like Hoodoo bocors or ho guns.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 4: Sure, no, that makes a lot of sense, and especially
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 4: with your comparison to the scientology process stuff, these different
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: houses as you put them, the uh yeah, that's interesting.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: The Haiti's a weird place. It's uh yeah, I see
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 4: what you're saying. It's kind of an inescapable. They have
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 4: a system of politics sounds like freemasure as well, and
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 4: religion that's kind of mashed together as one figurehead.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: And that's that's the problem with it, is like it
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: becomes tribal at a certain point, Like once the system
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: degrades to like a level, it just becomes street gangs. Like, yeah,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: it's clearly Masonic. This like system of houses that are
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: allegiant to one Red or Blue faction that even wear
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: those colors, like they will have their yeah, absolutely that
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: they call them drop po and they will wear them
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: in their back pocket like very bloods and crips, or
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: they'll wear them as a bandanna. So I mean, yeah,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: they're they're not escaping like they're there. It's very Masonic,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: like it's it's like it's deep in their gangs and
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: they're in they're kind of ruling politics.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 5: I think, I do you think? I do think it's
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 5: interesting to.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: Reference Jamaica though, because obviously when I did my episode,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: it was on Edward Siaga, who was sort of like
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: he was happy Borian. I often joke that I'm happy Borian,
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: but he was actually happy Borying. He was like mixed
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: every he was mixed of everything. So he also had
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: he wrote some of the first published books on obea
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: or science, and so he kind of broke a long
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: standing taboo, and it was also illegal to study those things.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: So how did he get funding to study those things
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: and then go on to be the prime minister? Very interesting,
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: but and he was clearly involved with certain factions of
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: drug gangs. His faction was blamed for the bombings of
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: many airports, certain assassinations, and he was considered to be
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: one of the best prime ministers Jamaica ever had. So
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: he's a really interesting figure. He would be worth a
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: deep dive, honestly.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm gonna have to check him out. Sounds like
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 4: a stand up guy. I've only been in Jamaica once.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 4: It's an interesting place.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 5: It's an interesting place.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: And but like all of the Caribbeans, seems to have
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: this underlying thing of the cartels or the drug gangs
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: or maybe the hotels. They're just like street level drug
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: gangs who say you can't smuggle through my territory. Sure,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: that seems to be a big thing in the islands,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: Like the territories are seen to be very important to them,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: like just maintaining sort of like these what we would
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: maybe look at as tribal lines or like ethnic lines
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: or religious or linguistic lines. They tend to see as
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: like you just must maintain that. So ancestrally, generally, yeah,
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: the drug pipeline from it's usually from Trinidad all the
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: way up into the Muhamas was the traditional sort of
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: like especially in the seventies and the eighties.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 5: But he was a really.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: Interesting prime minister because he wrote on obia, but he
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: also was known as like quite a ferocious obia practitioner himself.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: So I just wonder if it's like maybe you look
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: at every prime minister or president of the Islands and
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: maybe you would find it in their background, like without question.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that's true, but I just think
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: it would be an interesting proposition.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 4: It sounds like a common trend in amongst the crew
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 4: in there. Yeah, it's interesting that there's no shortage of
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 4: drugs on those islands at all. I mean, right, you know,
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 4: they got to get there somehow, so something. I mean,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 4: it's like it's one of these open secrets, like you know,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: because you see guys with machine guns walking around everywhere,
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 4: but like so you think there's some level of security
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 4: going on, you know. I mean it's just these are
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 4: just you know, fiefdoms. You know, they're operating big drug
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 4: trafficking fiefdoms. Because I remember going to Jamaica. I had
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 4: a fella I was walking around town. This dude was
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 4: following me around for like an hour trying to sell
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 4: me coke. I'm like, look, dude, I didn't want to
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 4: coke an hour ago. I don't want to coke now,
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean? Go find go find somebody
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 4: else to sell your coke to.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: No, I will say, uh, my experience. I've been to
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: Jamaica twice. Both times, I've never been so fucking harassed
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: for drugs before. Right, Oh shit, Oh can I just
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: go on vacation yo. That shit was annoying. Even at
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: the resort that I was at, was all the lifeguards
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: he had to actually save someone's life or they hit
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: to sell drugs. So I was like, you know, I
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: was getting asked by like fucking almost everybody that worked
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: at the police too. She said, no, I don't want
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: to buy your garbage. I brought my own thanks, you know,
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: I brought my own face. But you know, I'm good. Thanks.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: That's definitely my experience there.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'll stick with that. In the endless alcohol
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: that's you.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: Even the idea of alcohol that even has a very
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: magical origin story, especially if we're looking at Jamaican rum,
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: because sugar rum is one of like if we're looking
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: at Tantra and there is a large Indian population, as
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: we discussed in the last episode, it's a.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 5: Large Indian population.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: So the idea of using alcohol or what it would
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: be ritually transmuted into, which is kuran, is like that
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: is the contric procedure. It's like the transmutation between alcohol
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: into spirit. So it's making it ritually palpable for the
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: spirits or the deity. Really it's for the higher deity.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: But that has has always had a very magical association.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 5: Obviously, bit people are very familiar with Florida water and.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: What's the other one? Now there's there's I'm forgetting I
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: apologize that. There's like there's the two that are very famous,
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: but there's actually an Obail water, which is made from
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: Mission water Florida. Yeah, Florida water is one of them.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: And then there's another one that's like a colonial.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: I've actually made one of those things. I can't remember
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: the name of it. It's like this mixture of stuff
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: and do you make this like cleansing water?
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 5: So that's what Obaia water is.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: It is like it's using the Jamaican overproof from so
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: it has to be over eighty percent so you can
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: see like in the traditional Jamaican rum making, it was
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: like usually they would always brew above eighty percent, if
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: not over one hundred, so it has to be a
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: high proof. But then they would stick like john roots,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: they would stick Angelica bay leaf and it would be
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: like it's like a little different. It's like a little
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: more a drug store, you could say, or a little more.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: They would also put like leaves and things from the
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: bush is what they would call it. But it definitely
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: had like there would be both drugstore and like forest elements.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: So they they that's actually still famous in Jamaica, like
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: Ovia water, and it doesn't smell anything like Florida water.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: So you know, people go to Jamaica. That's an interesting
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: thing to try and look for at a candle starre.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: Interesting. So now, what was I know with this case,
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: unless it was just a broad thing, didn't you say, well,
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: with this company, didn't you say that ties kind of
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: like to a troop frind thing? Oh did you mention
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: this already?
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: I think it's interesting because he was involved in various
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: fraud cases and he clearly he beat all them, but
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: he he didn't. His reputation actually did suffer. He continued,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: He's often frequently called combat and then he also claimed
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: to have ghost written several influential New Thought books. So
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: exactly like we were talking about, like how there's this
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: long standing relationship to in spiritual who do the New
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: Church movement, which would include the American Catholic Church, And
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: so he was a big influence privately behind the scenes
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: in new Thought, which is basically, if you will.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 5: It, it will come.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: So he supposedly ghost wrote one of the more popular
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: New Thought books at the time.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 5: I'm forgetting the name. I apologize, I'll look it up
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 5: for the next time.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so he definitely was connected, I think, as
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: JJ would agree with. He seemed to have ability to
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: maneuver around high powered and sometimes obviously in the sense
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: of Jamaica was illegal to own his books. So how
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: was he getting it through customs? How is he able
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: to deliver into like remote farmlands in Jamaica, Like, you know,
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: it's kind of interesting what.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 4: You're saying is he had that Jeffrey Epstein, is he
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 4: and some federal charges every decade or so, you know,
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 4: four largest pond scheme in American history at the time.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 4: I've seen Walks, you know what I mean. He walks
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 4: again on some of the child child deadling charges in
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 4: Florida history. Walks again basically spends thirteen months in a
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 4: jail wing of the jail that he built himself and
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 4: slept on, slept during the weekends, just checked in. Yeah,
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 4: you know, this guy definitely has that kind of impression.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 4: He's just scurtain charges like without issue. Especially.
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if it's so outlaw that's it makes you wonder, right.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: Well, it's also interesting because Obai was also outlawed. And
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: this is what I was referring to Nick, is because
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: it was outlawed because it was the whether they it
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: was true or not true. They blamed it on the
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: killing of many slave owners and like ex slave owners,
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: so like their descendants would often get poisoned or turned
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: blue or sometimes their heads chopped off.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 5: That was one time.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: And so yeah, they had like all these crazy things happen,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: and they would say, oh, it's because the slaves practiced
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: or they weren't slaves at this point. And actually in
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: Jamaica they were liberated quite early on, they would practice OBAA,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: so it would often got blamed for any time there
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: was civil unrest. So it was also another reason, even
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: though I alluded that said it was kind of like
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: a weird that coincidence that De Lawrence Company founded in
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: that same year as the bill passed. I think it
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: was also because they often blamed this like higher order
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: thinking that's what he said he sold. That's why they
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: even called themselves scientists instead of sorcerers, because they thought
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: this is a higher order thinking.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 5: This is like this is like true magi shit.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: Oh showing your ten care gold rings. I mean, come on,
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: it's just legitimate.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 4: There's a there's a there's no doubt in my mind
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 4: that l Ron Hubbard was fully familiar with the ciber
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 4: system and was to adapt his you know, science and tech,
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 4: his tech of scientology. I mean, it's kind of a
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 4: mail order system in and of itself. Yeah, you can
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 4: go into the orgs, but it's really not mandated too.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 4: For a lot of the aspects of the religion, a
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 4: lot of it is male order shit.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's I also think that's JJ. So it's
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: so interesting that you bring up because he does I
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: don't like his stuff. I think his stuff is like dumb.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: I don't want to believe. I'm not a scientologist. I'll
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: never be a scientologist. I don't really like him. But whatever,
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: if it works for people, that's that's totally fine. But
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: he clearly was very tuned into this American occultism as
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: it historically was and how it was in his contemporary time,
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: because he seems to be I'm not saying he's a
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: master synthesis. I don't think anyone would ever compliment him
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: so much as that, but I do think that he
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: was able to bring it into something interesting, like he
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I'm gonna like incorporate this little piece
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: of thing and this little thing, and and and then
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: it also was like, well he thought of himself as
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: a very cutting edge, but then you also think of
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: it like, uh, I think it wasn't that he was
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: cutting edge. It's that the the agencies were like actually
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: sending out the material right around the time that he,
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: you know, to that sort of bolstered his case. So
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 2: it was cutting edge in a way because it was manufactured.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 3: Makes sense.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 4: I mean, he definitely definitely thought veryhighland himself, so.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: He thought he thought he was cutting edge.
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 5: Absolutely, yeah, he definitely thought he was cutting edge.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: You know something I wanted to Uh, is there anything
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: else that you wanted to edge?
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: And we didn't really talk about secrets of the songs,
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: but that's okay. Did you want to mean to discuss
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: more of six and seven book or we're.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 5: Good to you.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: It's up to you. What do you think fit's uh?
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: So far?
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 5: I think it was good.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: I think it gave it a taste like those are
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: the main three books. They're a very specific part of
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: more Jewish cabalistic magic. They're not as Islamic coded as
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: maybe some of the other grimoires that were also popular
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: at the time. And Jamaica actually did have a specific
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: contingent of Islamic kind of obea men from Mali, so
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: they were one of the islands that got people from Mali,
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: which is relatively rare. So they did have an initially
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: a tradition of making leather and metal charms with surahs,
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: which are the Islamic version of psalms. Basically, they're each
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: one is assigned to specific metaphisco property, so you write
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: it and then roll it up and then put it
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: into a little like a bullet case or a container
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: or metallic and then you tie it to leather. So
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: they but that actually died out. So I don't know
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: how influential. I've only seen it in archaeology like journals
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: like discussions of it, so I don't really know how
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: much that preserved. But it is an interesting idea that
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: you could say probably percolated through at least how they
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: make charms.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, one thing I wanted to mention before we wrap up,
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: which is Guy, why I asked Jin something you had
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: mentioned before JJ, I think you might have seemed surprised
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: by it when he I think I mentioned I think
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: Masonic Mason's kind of maybe being influenced by certain stuff.
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: My opinion, them and a lot of other secret societies
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: and ocultists were influenced by like Native American and a
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: lot of like indigenous type like stuff. In my opinion,
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: I do think you will see a crossover of occult
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: symbolism from the Native Americans even into ceremonial magic.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 4: Really yeah, yeah, it was.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: It's kind of surprising because you start wondering like which
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: one came first, like.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 4: Had their own systems of some of these native tribes
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 4: and their own kind of free Masonic systems, right.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, they did kind of yeah, yeah, they would have
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: their own.
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 4: Systems and truck I recalled tribes.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: What is that?
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 4: What do you think of tribe is no, but I
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 4: mean like in the tribe they had like the yeah,
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 4: they're like free Masonic system within the tribe like yeah.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: No. Well, I'm saying if you look at the way
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: a tribe is, I mean it's very set up, very orderly,
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: just like very.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, very compartmentalized. Right right.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 4: There's a guy out of New York, a society Cincinnati.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 4: Remember he was half Native. I want to say of
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 4: the uh Onionto. I think Onionta one of one of
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 4: those native tribes. They are in central New York, are
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 4: on the Finger Lakes. His his mother I think was Native.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 4: His father was I think a Dutchman there. Anyhow, he
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 4: he was the chief of that tribe's you know, as
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 4: a you know later on his life, but he he
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 4: was never allowed to be involved in the tribes. Freemason.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 4: He described it as like a free Mason. He was
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 4: a Freemason as well, but he described it the internal
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 4: Freemasonry decided to the native tribe is being exclusively Native
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 4: he had anything out of the native blood, you weren't
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 4: allowed into their freemasonry. It was very weird. I mean
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 4: it was They didn't call it freemasonry, but it was
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 4: a very freemasonic system. The way this guy described he
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 4: was comparing it to his known freemasonry, you know, Scottish
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 4: ripe freemasonry. So it's weird. I didn't realize though, that
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 4: a lot of that stuff was found in ceremonial magic
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 4: as well.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: For sure, I think so, I mean, what's really interesting
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: even with you know, we've had thresh on he was
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: he was in the chat before. I don't know if
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: he's still listening. We've had him on covering Native American stuff.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: I highly suggest people to go back and check that out.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: It's an older one, very informative with Native American and symbolism.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: If you even saw looking at like some of the
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: tribes that he covered, and like he kind of goes
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: over like how like there's certain people there doing certain
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: things and they have certain roles. It's almost very set up,
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: is if. And they seemed very focused on people having
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: a magical experience kind of or something very much like that,
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: like even sure, almost like a shamanistic experience. So even
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: in myself, those tribes almost seem like they are set
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: up to help bring individuals to have an actual magical
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: experience because you're having people there that have gone through
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: this before, to doing all this ritual work, to trying
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: to help other people have their own experience. To me,
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: I really honestly think they're very much like a secret
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: order in their own self, you know, and it's going
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: by ancestry. Yeah, I mean if you look at some
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: of the way some of them are, it's very much
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: and I could see maybe that's why they wanted to
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: wipe them out.
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: I think that Nick just hit it like that's the
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: whole thing is, like it was original Freemasons versus like
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: maybe upstarts, and that it actually could be an underlying
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: secret basis you could say for a lot of conflicts
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 2: because the meta we Wins and JJ I have discussed
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: this a little bit before. But the secret that's what
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: we would call it in Cree is or because I
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: live in Canada, most Indigenous people here are Cree, so
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: we all know some words. So meta we win is
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: the word for medicine society. It's exactly what JJ is
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: saying it's like this secret lodge within the tribe. So
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: you could say the tribe is like the inner religion
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: already because there are so many high barriers to entry
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: into a tribe, right, but then the medicine, the medicine
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: society is like the ultimate barrier. And I'm so glad
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: you brought up the Thrash episodes because I was actually
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: going to say that too, Nick is that Yeah, check
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: those out and Thrash it was really great.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: So those are actually very eye opening to me how
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: much of a cultism was in that and how much
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: there was overplays and stuff that I've seen, the symbolism
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: and the colors us, this is just ridiculous. It was like, wow, Yeah,
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: that put me down like a rabbit hole after he
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: came on for a little bit, like damn, this is
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: so interesting shit here. Yeah, like you'll even see there's
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: there's books. There's books I think Denning and Phillips or
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: something like that. I could be wrong, people that have
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: these books that have like this certain eight pointed star,
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: but it's like very weirdly done and it's like, yo,
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: that's like the same thing that I saw in something
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: Threasts showed on the show, like the same symbol from
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: some tribe that I think was on the medicine wheel.
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: These people, these occultists are throwing up on the front
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: of their magical book. Interesting, Yeah, it was what the
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: fuck obviously it's cross over here.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well it certainly applies some sort of similar origin,
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 4: right mm hmm.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 5: I mean the Navajo use the swastika.
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 2: No Russian that covered this, and UH and JJ and
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: I have discussed this, and just like there's there's so
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: much overlap. I mean, the idea of the clockwise and
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: counterclockwise medicine like sorcery and white magic and and like
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: these like secret societies battling it out, and these like
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: this richer cosmology than just as like presented as native cosmology.
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: There's like a whole secret cosmology even beneath that, and
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: what's really going on in the nature of reality and
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: like that. Some tribes like the you know, like the Mohawks,
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: and then Jefferson wrote very fondly about them, and they're
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 2: kind of like codeff They had like a pre democratic
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: system or a pre republican system, depending on how you
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: view it, and so they he was very inspired by them,
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: and even in Canada, they hold one of our Confederation
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 2: documents as one of their treaties. So you can see
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: and their commercial success I think tribally building a casino
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: and all of that, but I think you can see
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: that they clearly belonged to some kind of system that
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 2: was able to, you know, propel them to greater heights
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: of success financially at least. And so, but to bring
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: it back to the lawrence, just like before Nick close
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: us out, it goes along perfectly with this because he
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: was actually credited with this popularization of the Indian who
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: do Saint, So he brought the idea of the Indian
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: Spirit guide into popular consciousness by rebranding the Long Lost
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: Friend into pow Wow. So he added that language later on.
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: So because he was also interested in this idea of
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: Indian spirit guides, which if you've practiced American magic in
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: any sort of like capacity, like afrosyncretic magic or drug
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: store magic, or just like read an a spiritualist book
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: or a lot of theosophical texts that are specifically American,
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: they always talk about like Indian spirit guides.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 5: There are specific ones.
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: Father Blackhawk is by far the most popular, and he
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: especially in America obviously like the South America and Central America,
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: they're very popular as well, but they have different names
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: for them. But the one that's really popular in America
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: is Father Blackhawk, who comes from Wisconsin. And there's actually
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: a great book on this by Jason Barry, and so
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: he talks a lot about something you'd find interesting. JJ's
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: the Mississippian snake cults, and so there was like a
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 2: snake cult among both tribal and white assire like French
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: Scottish settlers in the turn of century around some like
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: Mississippian area of a river.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 3: Sure a lot of snake mounts to that region.
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that there is like the speaks
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: to mixture at or point, like, there is a lot.
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: I think this is a very understudied subject. I think
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of like Native Americana in occultism. I
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 2: think that there are certain Native people largely mixed blood
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: simply because that's sort of how it works, that have
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: like ability to use native symbology to also understand, you
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 2: know more. We could call it quote unquote Western metaphysical
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: ideas as well, but I think it takes a little
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: more acumen because I think those symbols are less accessible,
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: whereas we you know, like people have hacked magic kind
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: of in a way you could say, like you just
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: have to put in the work that a lot of
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 2: people can do it, whereas like the native stuff is
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: like there's so many high barriers to entry. It's like,
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: you know, it'd be difficult to like pull it one
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: hundred and tell it to explain what it does.
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you very much, jin uh And I think
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: we'll wrap it up again for people like you even
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: mentioned before, Jen and I wrote it up before as well,
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: for people who have not heard it. Uh. Even for
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: the people listening and don't watch the video when you're
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: catching this and it drops on audio, go back and
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: check out the uh Native American series with Thresh. It's
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: very very very interesting. I was very surprised by a
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: lot of it the truth uh and yeah uh Jin
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 1: the Ninja please uh let every ever, let everybody know
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: where they can find your stuff again one more time, sir.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 5: Sure, Thank you Nick, and thank you JJ so much.
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 5: Appreciate this.
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: I know I kind of brought you on me. I'm
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: sort of infamously meandering, and so I'm glad that you
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 2: let me meander uh so, thank you both. And I
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: love be a guest as well as a reject. And
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 2: so you can find me on the show. You can
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: find me on my show which is Threshold Saints, and
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: you can you know I'm around, so you can follow
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: me on Twitter wu Conri Born or i G threshold Saints.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 2: There's also a show account Threshold Saints on Twitter, so
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: if you don't want the nonsense, you can just follow
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: the show.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 5: And that's that's great.
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: That's it. Thank you very much. And his links will
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: be on the bottom as well. And JJ Vance please
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: so let everybody know where they can find you. Amazing stuff.
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 4: No, I appreciate the invite, Nick and Jen su as
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 4: next head you. I didn't know anything about the subject
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 4: so learned a lot today. And the Susan Nixt said
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 4: you were inviting me on you were the other guests.
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, of course I'll come join the executive.
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: I figured that would I figured that sweet and the
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: hot when I asked him there was such a short notice.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: I was like, Gin's coming on.
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, jennll yeah for sure, I'll definitely join you all. Yeah. No,
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 4: I'd always to love and every week whenever we discuss things, Jen,
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 4: So today was no different, and you're closing closing things
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 4: out of the Indian spirit spiritual guy. The only thing
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 4: I could picture was Wayne's World two, where Wayne's as
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 4: an Indian spirit guy directing him to Jim Morrison in
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 4: the Afterlife to put on a rock concert.
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting. Well, thank you JJ also for that compliment.
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: And let me just say that I did re listen
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: to that show that I did a lot. JJ generessly
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: invited me on to do with him and Nick on
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: Big Trouble Little China, and it was actually.
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 5: I actually would be proud of myself. I was like, oh,
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 5: I actually did a good podcast. I can actually do it.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 4: So now that was an also show. Yes, we'll have
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 4: to come back on again. We'll have to do some
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 4: more essos. Eric in the Cole Film reviews that was
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 4: that was good stuff. You got got got a lot
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 4: of good reviews there. But yeah, I always enjoy the
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 4: conversation Jens. I appreciate the invite there, Nick, And uh,
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 4: you know it sounds like this this guy Delora is
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 4: to blame for all these uh with these spirit guys,
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 4: is to blame for all these petuly jewels on Instagram
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 4: talking about their their spirit guides, you know what I mean.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 4: Sounds like he's one of the epicenters of these, the
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 4: New thought or New age spirit guide activity.
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: Huh there manifesting the right right.
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 3: I have a spirit guide and you will appreciate this one, Jen,
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 3: my old guy.
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 4: I like the joke as my well, my spirit animal
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 4: is a former Toronto mayor Rob Ford, the guy that
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 4: just you know, would smoke, crack out in public and
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 4: refuse from the time. I mean, the dude was a gangster.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 4: So that's like the joke. He's my spirit animal. I
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 4: guess I have Lawrence to thank for these for this,
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 4: for these jokes.
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 3: Now, it's a great.
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 4: Conversation, uh, Operation GCD live every Wednesday and Fridays Live
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 4: every every Friday with the Occult Rejects. So definitely definitely
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 4: looking forward to any anytime well to congregate here again
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 4: sometime on these subjects for sure. But yeah, I always
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 4: enjoy the conversation.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you very much. Definitely check out the Friday's.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: We already got like the ne a few weeks kind
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: of booked already, so we already know it's gonna be
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: some pretty decent shows. Which was gonna be anyway, but regardless, Yeah,
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: definitely keep yes, definitely keep an eye out. Should be
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: good fun and we'll both be back on together. It
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: was a couple of weeks that he was off and
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: then I was off, and we'll be back next week
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: or this week, I mean, so yeah, definitely check it out.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: And again, thank you Jin for coming on, sir. That
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: was truly interesting stuff and never heard of this any
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: of the stuff before, so I appreciate it. Yeah, it
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: was totally new to me. Yeah, and everybody in the chat,
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: thank you very much. I appreciate it. I saw a
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: lot of the usual people and some new people. That's
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: what's up. Great stuff. And I see some people over
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: on JJ's channel chiming in as well, that's what's up.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: I appreciate it, you guys, and uh yeah, and until
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: the next one, everybody be well later