Latest / Democracy Tomorrow / Human Rights Concerns for State Election in Australia
Transcript
- Scott Leckie: Hey everybody, it's Scott Leckie from Democracy Tomorrow. There's going to be a big election in the Australian state of Victoria on the 28th of November, just over a month away. It's probably one of the most consequential and I guess you could say controversial elections that this state, known widely as the most progressive state in Australia, has ever had. The Green Party is doing particularly well in the polls right now, ranging between 14 and 18 percent. the Liberal Party coalition, which has run Australia frequently and this state, is not doing very well in the polls. The Labour Party, the government, which has been in power for twelve years, is also not doing that great in the polls. And the far right party, known as One Nation, which has traditionally garnered a tiny percentage of the vote in this state and throughout the country, has now reached almost the same level as Labour and the coalition. So political situation in Victoria is very much Up in the air. And there are major consequences that will occur no matter who wins this election. Some of these have significant human rights implications. And with us today to talk about some of the human rights concerns of this both the campaign and the upcoming election is former Victorian Supreme Court Justice Kevin Bell, who was also a key member of the Commission, which did a lot of work on indigenous. restitution and related issues in the state of Victoria. He's a great winemaker and also the author of a fantastic book called Housing the Great Australian Right. Welcome to Democracy Tomorrow, Kevin. It's great to have you here. Kevin Bell: It's great to be here, Scott. Thank you very much for having me. Scott Leckie: Right. Well, we're we're doing this interview today on the twentieth of October and and something highly irregular and unusual happened in Victoria yesterday, which was a physical attack against one of the members of parliament from this state, an independent member called Helen Haynes, who was mowed down by a vehicle, something that j just does not happen in Australia. And I think all of us in the state, you know, condemn that wholeheartedly, of course, but it's not Kevin Bell: We do. Scott Leckie: First and the only thing that's that's happened during this campaign which is highly atypical of the relatively peaceful and reasonable campaigns that Australia is used to. So what do you see as some of the human rights concerns and implications of both this campaign and the ultimate result that we get at the end of November? Kevin Bell: well the the the first the first one in my mind is the announced Liberal Party policy to abolish the treaty process, which would be a disaster from of the human rights point of view. Scott, I should say that that that Member of Parliament who was run down and has sadly lost a leg w leg was the was a member of the federal parliament, not the state parliament. But the point that you make is absolutely correct. that we're not used to this kind of thing. but there are but the there are people who are f fomenting trouble using language which is intended to have that effect and which is bringing about that that that result. So it's it's a hot political climate here, it is controversial. and the most controversial thing from my point of view, as I say, is the possibility that the treaty process that is a long way down the track will be undone. Either by the Liberal national coalition if they achieve government or by a combination of them and one nation, if the two of them together h have have a majority. Scott Leckie: Yeah, and th you know, should that happen, this this goes completely against the prevailing grain at the international level when it comes to relations between dominant political structures and indigenous peoples. And it would be a gi Kevin Bell: Yes, yes. Scott Leckie: as much as a giant forward step as it was to conclude that treaty and all of the attributes associated with it, this would be an even bigger backward step was that to come into play. Kevin Bell: Yes, yes. Yes it would. Yes it would. Australia was late to come to terms with its colonial past. the the order the the traditional order of the day was non-recognition, if not outright denial of indigenous interests. gradually over time it became clear that they that they were the victims of of of of a genocide, of the unceded the taking of unceded sovereignty, subjugation economically, socially, and politically. there were a few false steps taken. but to come straight to the point, in Victoria there was a very successful process of which I personally play in which I personally played a part, whereby the Yoorook Justice Commission investigated the impact of colonization upon indigenous people at At colonization continuing and now and the likelihood of that of going of that going into the future, we examined what should be done in order to recognize those things and to prepare for a different future, to engage in respectful relationships based on equality and human rights, and recognize the powerful contribution that indigenous people have made, are making and will make. to Victorian society. And that process was was was concluded in Australia's first treaty between an organ of state being the state of Victoria. We're a federal state here and and there are seven states, a couple of territories, as part of the Commonwealth, but the state of Victoria has constitutional authority to enter into a treaty, which it did. through which a number of mechanisms were set up empowering self-determination on the part of indigenous people in all sorts of ways now and to to come. So we have what you might call an Indigenous Parliament which has met, is meeting and is preparing for the next stages, which are individual treaties both in places around Victoria, between local groups and the state. and subject matter treaties such as justice, education, land development, and so on. So it's quite it's an advanced program that's the result of 20 years' work by people in this state. it's it's it lays the foundation for similar things to happen in other states of Australia, if not at the federal level. it's it's it's a real emblem of of of of the power of cooperation between indigenous people and and parliamentary representatives. In other words, the realization of self-determination within the state rather than w having destroying it. and and I'd I'd be I I'd be confident that there would be an uproar if this policy of dismantling this process were to be implemented. Now the likelihood is though that whoever wins the lower house of parliament, which is the house of government in this state, because we have a bicameral parliament and there is an upper house called the Legislative Council, whoever wins the lower house, the lower the legislative assembly, is not likely to have a majority in the upper house. and so you know th thank heavens for these breaks on the exercise of absolute power and absolute when at when when that kind of power is obtained. because Scott Leckie: Absolutely. Kevin Bell: they will have to deal with the Greens and with you know there'll be a plethora of in of independence. The complexion of the upper house upper house I think will be quite fascinating. It seems very likely that there will be one nation representation in the upper house and even in the lower house. so the far right will have a foothold there for the first time. but it it's it's not likely to be as significant to be significant in terms of numbers, and my hope is that the the kind of break on the exercise of absolute power which has been demonstrated in the past will be demonstrated again in the upper house. Scott Leckie: Right, right. And just to inform viewers, there's eighty-eight seats in the lower house. You need forty five seats to have a majority. There's forty seats in the legislative council, which is the equivalent of a Senate if you want to compare it to something else. Yeah. Kevin Bell: It is the equivalent of a Senate, yeah. Scott Leckie: And right now, I mean, Labor has a strong majority, and has had for well, all the way dating all the way back to twenty fourteen or so. but they're really, you know walking a tightrope right now. Some polls suggest, I think most of the polls would suggest that minority government is the most likely outcome. Who who knows in the end. But according to present polls, which is really shocking to people who are familiar with Victoria in particular, I'm looking at a poll from four days ago. one nation is polling at 23% of the vote. Doesn't mean they're gonna get 23% Kevin Bell: Let's Scott Leckie: of the seats But in polls, people are saying almost one out of five four that they're gonna vote for this very hardline extreme right wing party, which has abhorrent views when it comes to migration, indigenous people, all sorts of other matters. And they are a a a billionaire-backed party, essentially, that claims to be a party Kevin Bell: Yes. Scott Leckie: of the people. So it's just a a new a yet another version of Trumpism. Or Bolsonaroism or Orbanism or whatever you want to call it. So you have this extreme financial elite backing a party that is using immigration, indigenous matters, women's matters, human rights matters as ways to get the anger out of the system and into their pockets. So They're running a campaign not at all dissimilar to all of these other right wing movements in the world which have garnered votes, whether it's in Germany or in Holland or so many countries. Kevin Bell: They they have, they have, and they've become much better at it. the One Nation has been something of a political rabble from a number of points of view, and has just been that party to to w that party to which disaffected people are attracted. they haven't really maximized the right vote in the past, but by golly, they've learned a lot since Trump came to came to power and other other you know Hard, hard politicians of the right have come to power and and and and done so using very similar methods. I can give you a good example of just how bad their politics are, but how effective it is now. And and this point of increased political competence on the part of one nation is one that I want to want to emphasize in this conversation. There's an independent in independent in Tasmania, a senator, Jackie Lambee. who's a real firecracker, very v very well liked in Tasmania, a thorn in everybody's side, a a very a very salty ex-veteran who who who calls things how she sees them and is very good at it. Scott Leckie: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Kevin Bell: not necessarily progressive in political outlook but very independent and can be trusted to look at issues on their merits. she Has said that she suffered a vaginal prolapse as a result of her war experience, which she suffered from for a long time and has called for greater attention to that particular women's medical condition. the One Nation leader authorized a a cartoon advertisement which satirized that condition of Jackie Lambey's. and express expressly referred to it and mocked her, mocked her medical condition, mocked her as a woman. a and you know, again, this is just not something that we're we're used to. There've been isolated examples of this. I mean Julia Gillard was called a witch and was called to be killed and so on, and that was a terrible, terrible thing, but was somewhat isolated in in terms of And that was rather spontaneous. It wasn't it wasn't a deliberate thing during an election campaign, but I utterly condemn that too. but here we have One Nation doing this kind of thing straight out the straight out of the Trump playbook in order to normalize the satirization and mocking of of of a fine Australian politician. I remember I remember when Trump said of of of the progressive woman politician in the States who was running who was r running for pre selection as president at that time, have you looked at her face, see that face? Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Kevin Bell: you'll know the person I'm referring to, mocking Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Kevin Bell: her and and trying to normalize the idea of mocking people for their appearance, mocking Scott Leckie: Yeah. Kevin Bell: people for their medical condition. as a as a way of undercutting their political power. So things have changed here. the former premier was was was presented in in billboards that were driven around Victoria as a witch, again, normalizing misogyny. so that you know the stakes are really very high here and we need to we we need to be up for the fight. Scott Leckie: Yeah, and I should point out, of course, that this is only the latest in a very lengthy series of outrageous comments by the One Nation leader ridiculing people, groups of people, certain individuals, certain perspectives. And it's really contrary to the normal way of doing things here in Australia, where there is a a very high level of mutual respect. There is you know, whether it's egalitarianism or the tall poppy syndrome or the or the f you know, the fair go doctrine, etc., it's very, very out of place. And, you know, I my hope as a as an Australian now is that you know, the the the deep seated principles that run most of most people's lives here can be drawn upon and and we return to a level of civility that is representative of who most people actually are. you know, and I think that Kevin Bell: Yes. My hope too. Scott Leckie: there is a lot of anger in in society here now compared to previous decades, I believe. And unfortunately, not enough of people who are tempted by this, you know, so-called alternative one nation, see how every single other instance of similar parties totally fail. In achieving what they say they're going to achieve for their voters. They're not in it for the representation of the common person or the common man or the common woman. They're in it to Kevin Bell: No. Scott Leckie: benefit financially, to appease the most wealthy people in society, and to create conditions which do not bolster and support democracy, but which in fact undermine it. What I think one of, you know, having moved here you know, middle in the middle of my life, one of the strongest features of our democratic system is mandatory voting, which does tend to push things towards the middle. And I can only Kevin Bell: Yeah. Scott Leckie: hope that that is what happens to people when they're in the voting booth looking at the options before them, and they realize that actually what One Nation is proposing is really going a bit too far in a lot of different ways. Kevin Bell: Well that's that's that's my hope all also. it's it's necessary to reflect on the social and economic conditions which have produced the phenomena. housing is central to those conditions. we have catastrophic access to housing conditions in this country, including in Victoria. housing affordability, whether to buy or to or to rent, is off the chart. a a great majority of Australian families are under cost stress or severe cost stress with respect to housing. we are in a situation where public housing is at an all time low proportion of total housing stock and and not rising sufficiently to keep up with present demand present demand, let alone legacy demand. We are about one million dwellings away from being able to meet present demand, let alone rising demand. and the economy is just chugging. It's a two-speed economy. There are parts of the economy that are in recession, there are other parts that better off than that. but people are experiencing serious insecurity. there is significant postcode inequality without a suburbs having access not having access to employment, education, community services and transport when compared with people living closer into to towards the center. there are there are particular groups who are ex experiencing vulnerability more than others, older women being first in in that long list. when I when I talk about housing in any public setting, on radio, for example, and callbacks taken, the every time an older woman rings from their car and explains their ha their their life story, how Scott Leckie: Right. Kevin Bell: she how she was so you know, the subject of domestic violence of husband squandered the money. She was left with practically nothing. Not having worked much, she's got no superannuation. and so in a position of of great vulnerability late in their life late in her life, she will inevitably explain that she can't access housing because it's too expensive, often unsafe, for various reasons, and she feels safer living in her car because then she can at least go and park it somewhere where she knows she's not going to be attacked and she can lock the door. So I'm trying to Scott, I'm trying to paint a picture in which a failure on the part of governments to recognize the obligation to realize social and economic rights in particular, for example housing, has contributed to the creation of social and economic circumstances in which people are attracted to parties which are standing up against the system. Not because Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Kevin Bell: they are proposing some kind of answer, because they're not really, or not seriously, But because they're saying that existing institutions aren't meeting your needs, and we will stand up for you. Now that is that's not just Trumpian. You know, that that that's that's that's the kind of way that that dictators always have and still are and always will take advantage of situations in which democratic governments or even other kinds of governments are not meeting the needs of the people. So taking a longer view I asked myself the question, you know, w w what w w with a human rights in this setting. Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kevin Bell: and human rights in in this campaign are not not getting much of a mention except that express policy to which I referred earlier, which is that the Liberal National Party have said that they will abolish the charter, which is our Bill of Rights civil and political rights, that is, not the the broader rights, our Bill of Rights in in Victoria. and I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm troubled deeply by that, because it has been a very positive thing. it's a relatively weak document when con when compared with the European Convention on Human Rights or you know the the the the the extraordinary power of the of the South American human rights system. the the the the the charter in in the UK which has got more rights it is more powerful more powerful and more justiciable. Compared with all those things, our charter is not as strong. But it has been useful and it's a a foundation on which to build and to go backwards rather than forwards would I think be just that a very retrograde step. Scott Leckie: I couldn't agree more. And I mean there is a long ladder still to climb when it comes to the role of human rights in Australia. And that would that was a shocking thing for me to discover when I moved here. The minor Kevin Bell: Yeah. Scott Leckie: the minor role that it plays in normal society compared to countries that we are compared to, other OECD countries, you Western European countries. It's very, very low scale on the priority list. And you know, we can talk about that another day, but just just an mentioned one of the issues that is huge on the agenda now is the whole issue of migration. You know, Australia is a migrant country and immigration has made Australia the great country that it is. And normally, I mean you know, I've lived here fifteen plus years now. you know and most of the time until like the last year or so when I'd speak to people about the migration issue, I would generally phrase it in the following way. We take in around two hundred, three hundred, four hundred thousand people a year with barely a peep of opposition from anybody. Left wing, right wing, extreme, whatever it may be, it was universally accepted to be good for the country and it has been good for the country Kevin Bell: Yeah. Scott Leckie: in countless ways that people Kevin Bell: Yeah. Scott Leckie: have no idea about if when they're starting to speak about reducing it and and bringing it down to zero. Kevin Bell: Well the the federal progressive politics have played this in my view very badly, because they have not taken the people with them. and the benefits of migration are are demonstrable, and you've just mentioned that very very forcefully. but there's another story which has supplanted that positive story, and that other story is that migrants are the blame for everything. Scott Leckie: Yeah. Kevin Bell: but migrants are the blame are to blame for unemployment because there's too many of them. migrants are are to blame for for traffic, for God's sake, because there's too many of them. migrants are to blame for for for for housing, because there are too there are there are too many of them. Scott Leckie: Right. Kevin Bell: Now the The the amount of migration has been very high and it has contributed in all sorts of positive ways to the economy. But if you don't take the people with you, you create a situation in which others can exploit discontent. and of course those who would exploit discontent need to point to a bad person to blame because that's the easy way out. Scott Leckie: Sure. Kevin Bell: d don't Don't don't vote for these people. They don't care about you. They care about these other people who are making your life difficult. Scott Leckie: Right. Right. Kevin Bell: now the other the other thing that I think governments have played very badly is is getting the the balance right between employment, housing, education, you know, all these things need to be they they all need to go to forward together, and they can go together, and we as a country, as you've said, have gone together. Gone forward together as a high migration country. I've got to emphasise as a former commissioner with the York Justice Commission on unceded land belonging to Aboriginal people as the traditional owners. But Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Kevin Bell: but nonetheless, I I do think that this has been allowed to happen because governments haven't haven't taken people with them. Scott Leckie: Mm. Kevin Bell: and it's been allowed to happen especially because governments have not accepted responsibility for housing the population, which is one of the first order priorities, first order responsibilities Scott Leckie: Right. Kevin Bell: for government. And government has failed to do that. And the reason that they've failed to do that is one, as a human rights lawyer, they they don't respect the human right to housing, but in in in different terms, they don't see housing as a policy issue, they see as an economic issue. Scott Leckie: Sure. Kevin Bell: and economic issues are normally managed through the market. and over really since the neoliberal age began and is you know rather ending, began in the 90s, government has withdrawn from active intermediation in the housing market and left it all just to hang out. at the same time as providing incentives to those with capital to invest, which has resulted in massive increases in landlordism and distortions in both the rental and the housing and the home buying market, which which have undermined the the orderly operation of the system. So again, I'm trying to I'm trying to draw a connection here, Scott, between the role that human rights can play. more respect for the human rights of migrants and refugees, more respect for the human rights of people to access housing, and and the failure to afford that respect and to use government in a positive way, resulting in the disempowerment of people, the displacement of people, the the their disenfranchisement, crea and and that's that that's that's helped to create the situation in which we i that we're presently confronting. You know, I I can demonstrate this pretty easily. The Victorian government hasn't got much to do with no with migration policy. There's not much it can do about it. it's a federal responsibility completely. And Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Right. Kevin Bell: yet one of the reasons that people say they will vote for one nation, including this election, is because they agree with with migration either as such or at the levels which we're presently seeing. So that's coming from a a place of that's coming from p a a place of a of a of a general attitude of dis of of disenchantment. well more than that, of actual of actual anger towards a system which Scott Leckie: Sure. Kevin Bell: is seen to be not for them. Scott Leckie: Yeah, for a lot of people in the state of Victoria and and throughout the country, life is no longer easy street. You know, life is Kevin Bell: By no means. Scott Leckie: a daily challenge to get by in the one of Kevin Bell: Yeah. Scott Leckie: the wealthiest countries in the world. And and a lot of that wealth, by the way, was propelled by both migration and increasing housing prices. Kevin Bell: Yes. Scott Leckie: Australia's position in the world in terms of median net worth twenty five years ago was far the far lower. on the global list than it is today because of property prices above all else. And it's gone so high and so out of control. And the vested interests have played such a role in keeping prices high until now, that you know, it's ten, twelve, fourteen times average wages sometimes for the median house price in some parts of the country. You gotta give the the the Labor federal government credit for trying to and successfully Kevin Bell: I do. Scott Leckie: a degree of lowering housing prices and they have gone down I think five eight percent or something like that, which is a very a very unusual Kevin Bell: I do give them that that credit. Scott Leckie: move to to do globally. I mean it's r it's a highly politically risky approach to take people's net worth and decrease it intentionally so that the people who are in the lower income groups can access the housing market. And they have succeeded to a degree, but I wonder how much longer that's going to go on. Kevin Bell: And it's not part of a plan, Scotland. Not part of a general plan. Scott Leckie: I think they're intentionally doing it. That's the impression I get. They're trying what they c what they can't do, you know. Kevin Bell: they're doing they're doing they're doing it. They're doing it. But it's not it's not part of a package of metas measures which is Scott Leckie: yes. Kevin Bell: are being thought through to to have the objective of producing enough housing for the people who need it. And that's the fundament that's the fundamental issue. There's no shortage of land. Scott Leckie: Yeah, and there's no shortage of land. We certainly don't have a shortage of land here. That's I mean, we have twenty-eight million people for goodness sakes, and we still can't build nearly enough housing for people. And that's a big problem. And I mean, I I would call for some sort of national convention to be held for a few days in Canberra and come up with a plan involving Kevin Bell: Yeah. Scott Leckie: all the political parties and say this is our five year plan. To adequately house the nation, something dramatic has to happen because without that Kevin Bell: Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: the the system's just gonna get worse because everything's contingent on housing. I mean, if your rent goes up by five percent, something else goes down. If your mortgage goes up as it's going up now and interest rates going up, something else goes down. So it's always linked somehow to how you live and where you live. So that has to be really at the cornerstone of of kind of rebuilding the the promise of what it means to live in Australia. So, we have just a couple more minutes. So, I mean, what do you think's gonna happen in this election? Do you dare make a prediction about what's gonna happen on the twenty eighth of November? Kevin Bell: I think that I think Labour will lose. I think I'd be very surprised if if one nation were the opposition. The way it works here is that pa is that the party with the greatest number after the government becomes the opposition. They get all sorts of responsibilities and resources as as a result. they they have all mana it's a very powerful position to have. So if one nation were to achieve that position, Victorian politics will have changed, you know, fundamentally. And this is the Massachusetts of Australia after all after all. You know, to th to think it might be happening here is is is is is quite quite a thing to grasp. But Scott Leckie: Mm. Kevin Bell: I would think that the Liberal National Party will be the opposition and that one nation will get some seats in the in the lower house and that they'll work in in cooperation but not in coalition with the Liberal National Party. So there'll be a significant shift to the right in Victorian in the in the pattern of representation in the lower houses of Vic of the Victorian Parliament. the upper house is is is far harder to predict. independents have a much greater chance of of of being successful. that that includes right wing independence as as mu as much as centre and left wing independence. but I would be very surprised if if if if the the right if the Liberal National Party plus one nation representatives were in the majority in the upper house that that would be a surprise. and so Scott Leckie: Right, I agree. Kevin Bell: there's a There's a lot of work to be done in in in trying to bring bring about that result. Scott Leckie: Well, you know, I'm I'm the ever optimistic one and hopeful one. And w whereas I I don't expect this to happen with this election at all, but I do believe there will be a day that comes, as has come in many other political jurisdictions in Kevin Bell: I do too. Scott Leckie: the world, where the Green Party becomes the dominant party. And Kevin Bell: Or a green light party. Scott Leckie: a a Green like party or a coalition with the Greens being the the first place Kevin Bell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: victor and then a second place party together Forming a sort Kevin Bell: Yeah. Scott Leckie: of progressive pro environment, pro people, pro climate, you know, point of view. And in a couple of days I'm doing a another episode of Democracy Tomorrow with a a leading German politician who's been sitting in the parliament of Baden Wurttemberg in Germany for twenty nine years, for the Green Party. And lo and behold, in that state, that's where Mercedes is based, for instance, it's not some left wing bastion. It's a Kevin Bell: Yeah. Scott Leckie: you know, h hardcore industrialized area, the Greens have been in power since twenty eleven. And so Kevin Bell: Yeah. Scott Leckie: no one would have expected that before it happened. It's like so much of Kevin Bell: No. Scott Leckie: history. It was impossible until it wasn't. And so if you look more deeply, I think, at the strands of politics in Victoria in particular, but elsewhere as well, there's a lot more support for, you know, ordinary people, reasonableness, more equality. Taxing corporations, taxing billionaires, adequately tackling climate change than meets the eye or is covered in the mainstream media sources. So I I don't discount that down the road as being a possibility. I don't think it'll happen this time, but I think the Greens will surprise with new leadership that they have at the federal level and also excellent leadership that they have here in Victoria and elsewhere. So Kevin, thank you very much for your thoughts today on the Kevin Bell: Thanks Scott. Scott Leckie: on the election. And fingers crossed Kevin Bell: Thank you, Scott. Scott Leckie: things remain peaceful and kind and loving down the road. And with that, we'll end today's episode. Thank you for watching Democracy Tomorrow. Thank you very much, Kevin, for your ideas and Kevin Bell: Thank you, Scott. Scott Leckie: thoughts. And we'll see you all soon on the next episode. All the best.