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S1 | E4 Melissa Ford - Executive Coach · The Permission Slip

• The Permission Slip - S1-E4 Ford === Matt Kosterman: Hi, my name is Matt Kosterman. I'm a 56-year-old white guy living in Chicago, Illinois. For the first 50 plus years of my life, I didn't think I was allowed to be here, not just here in Chicago, but here on earth in a body. I suffered from depression for most of my life. I smoked my first joint at age 11 and had my first drink of southern comfort straight from the bottle at age 13. While the cannabis never really took hold as an addiction, I drank alcohol for the next 20 years, many times to excess. In 1998, I began psychotherapy, and in the year 2000 I started on antidepressants. I spent 12 years on them in 15 years in traditional talk therapy. Meanwhile, I built a successful business, became a father to two amazing girls, and rehabbed an old house in a nice suburb. I did all the things. In 2010, I went through divorce, foreclosure, and bankruptcy. Fun times after much flailing about, I got my head on straight in 2015, only to begin experiencing severe chronic pelvic pain along with fibromyalgia. I spent nearly three years in the western medical system trying desperately to heal in 2018. Out of money and out of patience. My healing journey really kicked into gear after my first magic mushroom trip. The years since have been an amazing and challenging ride. I've traversed the physical and not so physical worlds and been fortunate to work with many, many talented healers. As a result of all my efforts, I now find myself in a place of receiving contentment and prosperity, the likes of which had alluded me for most of my life. There's a man named Darrell Anka, who channels a being called Bahar. Bahar describes the process of engaging with a healer that, of giving yourself what is essentially a permission slip to move towards wholeness healing and right relationship. This podcast is an effort to share some of what I've learned and introduce you to some of the people in ways that literally gave me what feels like my permission slip for existence. It's also an effort to continue to spread the word. That the traditional Western medical system, while effective for a great many things, is not necessarily the be all, end all solution to every health problem, especially when the problem may be more spiritual than it is physical, as it was in my case. Thanks for joining me. I hope you enjoy it. Please like, subscribe and do all the social media things that help spread the word, share these links with people directly in your community. It is my sincere hope that you and others will benefit from my experiences. I'm here today with, uh, a dear friend Melissa Ford, who I, whom I've known for. I just was looked at my calendar. Melissa, I have known for over 12 years, which is pretty hard to believe. Um, and Melissa is a, um, business and life coach. And she has been instrumental in my journey. I worked with her, uh, I've worked with her over the years. I did a big engagement with her in, what was that, 2016. And, uh, and we have stayed in touch regularly. She lives here in Chicago. And, uh, welcome Melissa. Thanks for being here today. Melissa Ford: Yeah, Matt, I'm excited to be here and talk about all things infinity. That's right. That's right. Matt Kosterman: We're gonna, yeah, we're gonna bring the, the infinite right into people's living rooms. Good. It's where cars, cars or, you know, bedrooms or wherever they happen to be listening to this. Uh, so, um, yeah. So like I said, you know, Melissa is a, is a life coach. I was introduced to her when I was very stuck, um, by a friend who said, uh, why don't you give Melissa, Melissa a call? And, uh, and I, uh. I sort of tentatively did a session here and a session there, and, and then we would, uh, we would get into some stuff that was maybe, I, I don't wanna quite go there. And so then I, then I, I back off for a little bit, and then we were, then, we were, then she proposed to me that we, we really get into it. And, and I was, uh, I was very confronted by that. And, um, I believe it was, uh, then attending the Landmark Forum that opened my eyes to, to what I really needed. And so, uh, I jumped in and, and I'm very grateful that I did. And, uh, I'd just like to just chat, uh, with Melissa today and, and, and have her, like you said, talk about all things in infinite, the non-dual consciousness, how she works, how she helps people, and, uh, and, and the, the permission slip that she offers. Yeah. So, I don't know, let's just give us a little background. Melissa, tell us about yourself, the little bio and where you're from. Okay. Melissa Ford: Uh, so I grew up in the western suburbs of Chicago. So I've been in this great state my entire life, slowly making my way eastward from Downers Grove to Oak Park to Chicago. And um, you know, you had sent me some questions about, you know, what's my story? What was it like growing up? What was the trauma I experienced? You know, have I overcome it? And I have to say I had a really good childhood. Um. That was my experience of it. There were things of course going on because we're raised by other humans who are confused about what they are, and they have their own trauma and their own generational legacies that they hand on to, you know, like what we all do. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. They, they never, they didn't get, they didn't get the manual. Right? There was no manual, Melissa Ford: no, no manual. My mom used to say to me, um, when I had kids, she said to me, you know, Melissa, I did my crummy best. And I really liked that because she did, and I have myself. Um, but, so I had a, I had a good childhood growing up and I, uh, got into coaching when I was in my thirties 'cause I was really challenged to parent my first child. So I have a son and a daughter. And I realized that if I didn't figure something out, I mean, thank goodness I had that awareness in my thirties that if I didn't figure something out by the time my son, who I deeply love, um, by the time he'd be a teen, we probably wouldn't have any relationship. Mm-hmm. So I was highly motivated to get on this path and figure out what the hell was going on. Um, so I got on this path and I, the first place I went to was the Option Institute and I studied there for 14 years. And the whole thing in the Option Institute was that your thoughts create how you feel and how you behave. They create your reality. And it was. Life changing for me because I saw people as causing my problems, making my life hard, not giving me what I wanted, not listening to me. So I was a very self-righteous and still can be at times victim. Sure. So, uh, that's where my journey began and I was just in love with exploring the mind and how the world gets created, how reality gets created. So over the years, I've, I tend to, I tend to hang out with people for a period of time. And when I say people with mentors and coaches and processes and philosophies, so after. The option institute. I went on and I have just finished 15 years working with an outstanding coach whose name is Steve Chandler. He's retiring and he's the one who really helped me build my coaching business and learn how to be a professional and how to create clients through service, make money, make, uh, so grateful to this guy because life has changed, not just because of my profession and my ability to develop there, but with my ability to help people. So the people that I work with are primarily in business and they are, um, solopreneurs like yourself. They can have their own businesses or they can be coaches, consultants, whatever it looks like. And I help people like that. Um, really grow a business, run a business like a business, realize, um, that the more impersonal. Business becomes the more fun, the more it's a game, the more that they can really help people, whether it's, uh, being creative and taking photos and or being creative and working with somebody. So, Matt Kosterman: but that's the, the, the more Im, the more impersonal it becomes is Yes. I just wanna clarify. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. The Melissa Ford: more impersonal, the more that there's a realization that the story of me and my identity and what's what I need and what's deficient in me and what things mean. And if somebody says no, that's rejection. And if somebody says yes, oh, how am I ever gonna deliver on what I told them that I would do? All that stuff has nothing to do with the work that you wanna do with somebody. Again, regardless if you're catering, if you are, uh, somebody who's I. Consulting in business, whatever it is, the more impersonal it is, the more, um, you're in reality and really helping people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I work with entrepreneurs like that and I also work with leaders inside organizations. I consider entrepreneurs also leaders, but leaders inside organizations and with folks, um, like leaders. I help them with communication. I help them with leading teams through co-created agreements rather than expectations. Shout outs, Chandler on that one. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and really getting clear about the role they play. And here again, I personal shows up. So the role they play is much more, uh, inspiring and useful. For a leader to get clear on rather than, it's my job and it's my reputation and it's my career and what's my legacy? All the things again that have them hyperfocused on an idea of them that's absolutely insecure and deficient and lacking. Yeah, so anytime I work with somebody, it's the practical and I'll call it the spiritual, the practical kind of nuts and bolts of client creation or leadership, and then the spiritual, which is what are you mm-hmm. What gets in the way, which is only the story ever of an idea of me. And then we work on both levels and it is, it can be very confronting because it's really the first time where people start to see that not getting what they want is really coming from the narrative they have about themselves Matt Kosterman: of, of not deserving. Or not being, not disturbing, not being allowed, um, not being good enough. Yep. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Not good enough, not worthy, um, not mattering insignificant, unlovable. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And, and, and so we tend to try to get those things fulfilled through the business, through the relationship, through, through all the other ways as opposed to just through ourselves. Melissa Ford: Yeah. And trying to get them fulfilled through all those ways you're talking about. And I've done all of them. It's absolutely unachievable. It's an impossible task. And that's how the cycle keeps going. Meaning, oh, if I just make enough money, then I'll be able to say what I want. I'll have a voice, people will listen to me. Um, I'll finally matter. Yeah. And it doesn't matter how much money you make, you'll still, if you still think of yourself as this limited separate self, the. Rollercoaster keeps going. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. The whole, the whole remains unfilled. Melissa Ford: Yes. Yes. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And es especially I, especially with the money, I mean, that's been, I think it's a big part of everybody's journey, but it's, it's been a big part of mine and I still, I still work on it. It's still a, in fact, just, just this morning I was looking at some Jean Key stuff around, around, uh, money and spirituality and, and, and it, it's, uh, and, and, and, and tying into, I love what you said about, about service. Um, and, and that was a big learning. Maybe you could talk a little bit more about, about being in service and what that, what that means. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Well, when I first started coaching, um, I, and I wanted a business. The coach I hired, who I've referred to, his whole thing was about being of service. And that his idea was what you wanna do, Melissa, is you wanna give people an experience of coaching. You don't want to give them a conceptual idea of what it is. You don't wanna tell them about what's great about you and all your stories about the people's lives you've saved and you know what's incredible about you and how you're different, blah, blah. The brand. You don't wanna do that. You want to give them an experience. You want them to see what it's like to to coach with you. That's what you wanna do. And that's of service. That's what you wanna do. And anything that has to do with you needing them to like you, needing them to think that you're impressive, needing them to hire you, needing their money, needing anything from them diminishes the level of service that you bring. Mm-hmm. And I heard this and I. It was very hard for me to compute because all I wanted to do was to get clients to make money because what I needed over here was to have that voice, like I said earlier. So it was all about I need that money. Yeah. And um, finally over the years, my understanding of service really was losing sight of this idea of me and wholly focusing on the other person and hearing what they wanted, hearing what they wanted, hearing their story, not falling for it, listening to what was getting in their way, having, you know, a real love and compassion, which just naturally shines through when any thought about me or what I think about them just falls to the side. And that was something that took practice. That was something that. Really brought so much more joy and fun into client creation and helping people. So service was, how can I help you first? I don't need something from you. I'm fully aware, I run a coaching business, so the highest form of being served by me is we work together. You pay me, I help you, we coach. Right? Right. But it, it just made it, it, it, it, it really turned it more into a real joy to be with people because the need this, it became more impersonal, Matt, just like I was talking about earlier. Yeah, sure. Matt Kosterman: And, and I think there's, I don't know if you can speak to, and I, I, I even, I still struggle with this today, and I know that when I try to explain this concept to people of service, excuse me, uh, the struggle between, there's a co, there's, there seems to be a conception that being of service means I'm volunteering. Melissa Ford: Yes. Matt Kosterman: Right. It means I'm doing something for nothing. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Yeah. It's out of the kindness of my heart. Yeah. And if I take any money, first of all, that's not spiritual and that's not service. Right. But it's the complete opposite because in reality, businesses, which is what you have and what I have, have to be profitable. Money has to exchange hand for the service, the product, the service that I'm selling. So when I speak about service, I am talking about, um, just, just like I said earlier, a clarity that when we're talking, it's about you. I'm still fully aware I have this business. It's not free. Um, it's not, you know, it's, it's not charity. Right. And. The service equation. In order for my business to exist and for me to keep doing the work that I'm doing, the service equation has to include me. So if it's just giving things away and giving things away, I don't, I'm not running a business. I'm I running it here. Yeah. It's all pro bono and that, and then I, I can do that too as well. Yeah. Um, but I have found that when people pay for things, they value it. They show up differently. Um, sometimes even in the payment of the, the, for the engagement, you can see transformation occur because people show up differently. They'll go to those places they're afraid to go to in a coaching session because, Matt Kosterman: you Melissa Ford: know what, hell, I paid for this. Matt Kosterman: Absolutely. And that, and that was exactly, you know, for all you listeners out there, that was exactly how it worked for me, uh, at the, at the time when I was sort of stumbling along and engaging with Melissa here and there. And, and paying a, it was, for me, it was a lot of money for just for, you know, 90 minute sessions. Two hour sessions. I don't remember exactly what it was. Um, I knew I wanted to change to transform. I, I knew I was uncomfortable doing, being who I was being, and I was deeply in debt. I had, I had already filed for bankruptcy, had already, um, foreclosure, divorce, all of the, the, the, the trifecta. And I was digging my way out of this and, and, and I. I believe it was. Um, and so she had proposed a, a, a big chunk of money to help me get out of the tax debt. And that was what was confronting to me. And I was like, why am I gonna, why don't I just get out of the, I could use, I could use some of that money to just, it, it wasn't as much as the tax debt, but it was a lot of money. Uh, and then, and you borrowed that money too. Well, but, but, but first, if you recall, you first asked, there was a, there was a lower amount and then, and I was like, I, I'm not ready to do this. And then I, and then I, I, and then I did the landmark forum and I had that, that transformational experience. And then I came back a couple months later and said, okay, you know, let's go. And then the number went up a lot. And, and, and, uh, and I, I, again, I, I was, I, I wanted the change and I saw that she had something. There was part of me that knew that there was something that you had. That would, that would help me with this. And so I did. I borrowed a whole bunch of money. Melissa Ford: Yes you did. Matt Kosterman: Uh, and if nothing else, it it, it sharpens the mind. It it, it sharpens the focus. Uh, and I called it getting a PhD in me. 'cause I had never done any postgraduate work. Never really appealed to me. And, uh, and so that was my investment in myself. And it has paid off, uh, tremendous dividends. It took, it took a little while, but as of as of earlier this year, I finally paid off on that big anchor, um, yeah. Of, of, of tax debt. Melissa Ford: Matt, do you remember when you came in and you said, Hey, Melissa, okay, I think I wanna do this, but, um, can I ask you a question? And you, and we got together and I said, what's the question? You said, is there any guarantee that, that I'm gonna be able to create what I want? I looked at you and I went. Yeah, no, there, there is no guarantee. And then I sat there and this brilliance came through and I said, here's what I will guarantee if after a month, 'cause you and I were working for what, 13 months? If after a month you're not doing what you need to do, then I'll fire your ass and I'll give you all your money back. Do you remember that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause that's one thing too that I'm so aware of, um, that, that things can't change unless you were willing to do the work. You were willing to get temporarily uncomfortable. One of the questions you sent me is, if somebody wants to change a situation mm-hmm. Uh, how, what, what, what advice do you have for them? The first piece of advice is, are they willing, you know, are you willing to do the work? Yeah. Do you realize I don't have a magic wand? I. Right. But if you're willing to do it, I will hang in there with you until the ends of the earth, I will bring everything I've got. So that's one thing. Another thing is when you hire somebody, like a coach or photographer, make, make sure they're good. Make sure they do their own work. Make sure that they stay on the learning curve. Right. And realize they don't always have all the answers. So you hung in there. You really did. And, um, I, I respect that of you. I also am in awe of your brilliant mind, your ability to learn. The fact that you walk your talk, your man, you just keep, you just keep going. And it's, it's exciting. And anytime we get together and have conversations, I walk out learning so much. There's so many things, you know, I don't, and I so appreciate it. Matt Kosterman: Thank you. Yeah, there's a, it's a, it's a giant void that wants to be filled all the time. I remember the other, the other pivotal part related, related to that was when, 'cause I was in a lot of physical pain, uh, when I was working with you, and I don't know, I was, I guess I was expecting you to fix that for me. And, uh, you know, and I would come in week after week and bitch and moan and complain that, that the pain wasn't gone. And I tried this and I tried that, and I dabbled in this. And, and finally, uh, we were a good way into it, a couple months into it. And, and you said, Hey, look, you can, you know, I've got your money. I mean, I'll give it back to you, but you know, you, you can, you can come in and we can, you can complain about this every week or you can get into action. And, and, and that was really, uh, the fulcrum right there. That was what really, I was like, huh. Yeah, I guess I could, couldn't I? And, and that was what really launched a lot of things for me. Uh, from, from there, uh. So thank you for that. And that's, you know, you, you, you ha you know, we're in a body, we're in this life. Bodies move. They need to do things and you gotta be in action. And, um, I mean, I, I've spent a lot of money on this journey, um, and I don't regret any of it. And there's none, you know, EE none of it. Uh, learn, learn something big or small from every, every interaction. Melissa Ford: Same. Me too. And to me, it's just a wild, cool internal adventure. And then the things that change internally, all of a sudden the world looks different. And that's what's so exciting. 'cause for years I tried to get circumstances to change by changing me, pretending to be something different by controlling people, by through massive resentment and anger and shutting down myself or somebody else. And I'll tell you, I, it doesn't work. No. And it wasn't until later, really in my life where I started to wake up to what techniques, tactics, approaches that I was using were just reinforcing this traumatic story of a deficient knee. I had no idea that that was going on. And through the last five years, really moving more into this non-dual world and seeing. That really seeing that the mind wow. Creates our entire reality. And when we start to, when we start to see things that shift, the subconscious belief system that totally drives this system called Melissa Ford. Right? Until that's seen in its question from a place of curiosity, not trying to change it, that's when things start to open up and life gets cool and exciting and, you know, relationships deepen and the ability to help a client improves. It's tremendous. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. So dig in, dig into that for a minute. So you, this, this idea, not everybody knows I'm, I don't think everybody knows this, about this concept of non-duality, it's sort of a negation, right? So what, what, what is, what is, how would you define non-duality? I. Melissa Ford: I went on Google 'cause I didn't have a definition. Mm-hmm. And it said, chat gt. Chat gt. Right, right. It said, you know, not separate, uh, unified whole. That's what it said. And my experience of it really is seeing that this separate self, this concept of me, this storyline that's been going on for years about me mm-hmm. Simply isn't true. It's not what I am. And so, so, so I get glimpses from time to time outside of this egoic mind. I get glimpses of this peace and this ease, this awareness, this beingness. And then I can, I. Watch the character Melissa, doing crazy things or saying crazy things or being loving or, it's just, it's really waking up to that reality is a hundred percent viewed through, created by the mind and viewed through, especially the ego, egoic mind of a lens of deficiency. Mm-hmm. So what we had said earlier when you're like, oh, unworthy, unlovable, um, don't matter. Uh, incompetent. We all have that lens, like a pair of glasses that are sitting on our faces are consumed by our minds that we think is us, and we're not even aware it's there. Yeah. Like I had no idea that this. Not mattering thing was even a subconscious belief driving the Melissa system. No idea until I was in a coaching call about four years ago, and I'm chitchatting with my coach and I must have been sharing some story about my husband. And she went, oh, I see. You think you don't matter now. I had been studying limiting beliefs, like I said, for years. I had never come across that. Mm-hmm. And the minute you said it, I was intrigued, horrified, and ashamed. All in one. Breath. Mm-hmm. It was just like, I knew it was true, but I couldn't. I What? Yeah. What do you mean I don't matter? Oh, yeah. You think you don't matter. Sure enough, I began that exploration, Matt, I don't matter was everywhere. I don't matter in my family, I don't matter that, you know, I moved into this condo. None of these people in this building think that I'm significant or even matter. They don't talk to me. So every, everything seen out there was through this lens. Wow. Yeah. And it blew my mind. And it, and at first it was like, holy shit. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's, it's, it's, it's a tsunami of not mattering, but I was reassured. Oh, listen, when you first start to see it, watch out, it'll be everywhere because it's, it's the, it's the ego Operating Matt Kosterman: Did, it did, how did it, did it land in your body? When, when, when the, the, the realization or was it mental? Did you, do you remember? Uh, Melissa Ford: different times. So. It was, it was, uh, like a mind blowing awareness. The first time it was said. Um, it landed in my body another time. Okay. I, um, you know when, when you've been living this avatar and you really think it's you and you think really the world is what it is, and then you start to see that's not the case. Yeah. It's sometimes it's either super exciting, but mostly it can be very confronting. 'cause the identity's job is to survive. So, so if the mind truly believes that I don't matter, I will fight, the mind will fight tooth and nail to continue. Not to matter. 'cause that's what I am, that's me. Matt Kosterman: That's me. Right. Not mattering. You're, you're not mattering, Melissa. Melissa Ford: That's good. I should change my little name on these screen, not mattering. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And then, and, and then all of, all of your, everything that you create in your reality will support that. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Yeah. It just automatically gets created because it's seen through that lens. Yeah. And you and I were talking about this earlier, but that's something that's really helped me is to go beyond and realize actually our language requires like, oh, I create that. I'm the creator. Yeah. You know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm perception in this localized form. Of consciousness and aliveness and awareness and the universe. Yeah. Um, but really what's going on is I didn't do it. I'm not, there isn't a me that's going, you know what? I think I'll screw myself over and think that I don't matter and people use me and I'm gonna be resentful, but it's operating all the time. And I think that's what was so shocking was to see how much it cr it created everything. Mm-hmm. It created everything. Mm-hmm. Can I share a story with you about this? Yeah. Because it's pretty amazing. So, so again, when you first start to discover that you don't exist, it's merely an accumulation of ideas and beliefs of lack. You don't exist, it's hard to get your mind around it. And then of course you might hear it, but then the next minute you're back in this identified mind. Yeah. So I was having another coaching call where I was sharing with my coach. Oh. Um, yeah. My husband truly thinks that I don't matter, by the way, folks. I'm still married and Yeah, just wanna let everyone know. Matt Kosterman: Your kids talk to you and they Melissa Ford: Yeah. To a different guy? No, just to the same guy. But so, so she said, well put, create a list. Like, tell me the evidence of why you believe this. So, boy, that was quick. I just whipped it all out, put it down on paper, and I read it off. I'm like, let me tell you why. Yeah. He doesn't listen to me, he interrupts me. He's not interested in what I'm saying. I don't get any eye contact. Sometimes even walks out of the room. Mm-hmm. When you're talking Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I'm talking about something that really matters. And so here, so she's like, okay. And I'm thinking, well, that's weird. You know, any other coach would've jumped on that and should have talked, talked me through how to get divorced and dah, dah, dah. And she said, well, let's just, just do this. If, if you're open to doing this, the next time you feel, 'cause I, you and I share this in common, you know? Mm-hmm. I can really feel something at a visceral level. The next time you feel what you might label as resentment or rage or whatever it is, just as best you can kind of drop into awareness and watch what the Melissa system is doing. Now, that may sound odd to people who are listening, but to to try to create some distance between what I'm doing and what I am creating, but what the Melissa system is doing. Just, just watch. I'm like, okay, so one day I'm in the kitchen and I am emptying the dishwasher and I can see into the living room and my husband's there and we're talking and I feel this, this feeling. I'm like, what the hell is that? I'm like, mm-hmm. Oh my God, I'm so mad. And I went, oh, this might be the time to do that. Little bit of homework. And so I'm noticing this sensation of like buildup in my, my. And my throat's getting tighter and I'm just so like tense and I'm watching myself empty the dishwasher. I'm not giving him any eye contact. Mm. I am absolutely not interested in anything he is saying. Mm-hmm. I noticed words coming outta my mouth where I'm interrupting him and trying to redirect him, and then I watched myself walk out of the room. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Interesting. Melissa Ford: How fascinating. Hmm. So this is the coolest thing, is to start to see that what's projected outwards. Is actually an exact mirror of my behavior. Yeah, Matt Kosterman: a hundred percent. Melissa Ford: And that was another wake up. So it wasn't just intellectual, it was, wow, look at what's going on here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then more followed from that. But that was another huge shift. And that was a moment where I realized, oh my gosh, whatever I judge, whatever I resist, whatever I deem intolerable, I've got my equivalent. Mm-hmm. And everybody, everybody does. Matt Kosterman: It has to be that way. Melissa Ford: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: yeah, Melissa Ford: yeah. 'cause they're made out of what this is made out of. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I think it's so, it, it's so interesting that it doesn't, it doesn't sound like. You've fallen into the tr it's a bit of a trap that I'll, I used to get into more often of, of then I would look for again, the story. What's the reason behind that? And what happened in my childhood that made me this way. Melissa Ford: Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah. That is a trap because it's more of the mind, it's the identified mind now trying to work its way out of conditioning that we don't really know why. I mean, you know, you could point to your, your self-absorbed dad or your insecure addicted mom. I could do the same. Yeah. There isn't any answer in that because it's happening right now. It's a system that's been conditioned and that past, that's over, and that doesn't mean we're, um. Diminishing it in any way. Matt Kosterman: No. Right. Or that we were unaffected by it, but it is over. Melissa Ford: Right. Right. And, and so now, um, you said this earlier, what's here for me to heal, to parent, to love that can't be found in an answer of who's responsible? Um, it, there's just nothing there. Yeah. It's just more, it's more of the same story. It, it almost deepens the story and makes it more real and true Matt Kosterman: for sure. And, and, and I, if I, if I look at it, and this may be the case for others who are listening for me, I was so utterly unaware early, early, you know, through so much of my life that, that I did have a lot of experienced trauma growing up. Everybody does. It's part of the journey. Um, but I was just so utterly unaware of it that once that becoming aware of it was such a revelation that then I hung up. Then I hung on that. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Right. And, and that and, and that I continue to go back to that well, for an answer. And the answer's not there. Melissa Ford: No, I rem I did this, I did something similar, but I was so good at anger and resentment for so long mm-hmm. That it was getting kind of old for me. But when I would go back and I'd go back, um, I'd be, it was really funny. I'd be told, you know, Melissa, you're gonna get bored of that. Mm-hmm. Because you're not gonna find anything there. Mm-hmm. And again, there was kind of a pivotal moment where I knew it was true because I'd been digging around in there for years and it had just strengthened the victim story. Sure. You know, but I'm glad you brought it up because you do go looking at all kinds of places where there aren't any answers. I think that's part of the journey. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So, like you said, to get, to get bored with it. Um, uh, I mean, I, I've had a similar experience with, with, uh, sugar addiction, which I've fought for a, a long time. And I had an advisor say, you know, it's just gonna, it's just gonna fall away, and you can, you know, so I think you get bored of it. And, and that's, it's kind, you know, that's kind of where I'm at. It's, there's still a hook there. Um, but it's like, eh, okay, I can be that person, or, or not. And, and I think it seems, if I, if I look at sort of, um, you know, looking back at our work together, one of the things I always appreciated was, is, is your, um, you know, I bring something up and say, okay, let's slow it down. Right? Uh, 'cause the mind, my mind, especially, I don't know about everybody else's, but man, it, it, it, it's creating stories and meaning very rapidly. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: So maybe you could speak to, to, to that a little bit about the, the slowing it down. I remember one, you took me through an exercise, some kind of a meditation where, you know, you slowed my mind like to a stop. It was crazy. I don't even remember what that was, but you, you know, there was no thought there for a few minutes, which I had never experienced in my life. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Well that was a great coaching session, I guess. Great. Matt Kosterman: I've been trying to get back to that place ever since. Melissa Ford: Slowing down. I think slowing down is one of, oh gosh. One of my favorite questions for slowing a client down is they'll start off and. A story will start coming out. You know, I wanna tell you about my boss and I wanna tell you how he's always micromanaging me. And you know how I, I don't have any agency and my ideas aren't considered. Um, and then to simply ask, is that true? Mm-hmm. And a lot of people will say, well, not the whole thing. Especially if you've got a loving, trusted relationship with the person Matt Kosterman: as a, as a coach. You know, they know your CO as a coach. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, thanks. Not with the boss, but as a coach. Yeah. So that they know that they're not gonna get judged. And they're safe. Like it's safe enough to go, well, that story isn't totally true. Um, they did take this idea and I got employee of the month and got a raise and you know, it'll start coming out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so slowing down. I remember one time saying, I'm gonna tell you a story. This was to my coach. I'm gonna tell you a story and I want you to know nothing in it is true, but just listen. Hmm. So, so slowing down is looking at what's true, what isn't, um, what else is Matt Kosterman: true. Right. What else could be true? Melissa Ford: Yeah. What else could be true? Absolutely. Um, how do you benefit from standing by that story and saying it's true? Like, what are the benefits? Matt Kosterman: What's the payoff? Melissa Ford: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people are like, oh, it's, there isn't any payoff. I'm losing hair and sleep and everything else. And it's like, well, there is a payoff because it keeps getting repeated. Matt Kosterman: Right. Melissa Ford: You know? And then, Matt Kosterman: and then it goes then, then going back to the earlier thing of the lack of, of, of not being, you know, it's, it's somehow the juice usually is reinforcing that, that core belief. Melissa Ford: A hundred percent. Yeah. And now I'm right. Mm-hmm. And now I'm self-righteous. And now you see life would be different, but for these people. Matt Kosterman: Mortal that are getting in my way. Melissa Ford: Yeah. There's, there's a comfort in the suffering. There's a comfort and safety, you know, in snuggling up with the wet blanket and sucking your thumb. I mean, there just is. So that's a great way to slow down. It's, it's just to get some space between what's being spewed out is truth and reality, and considering something else through, in a more impersonal lens. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Melissa Ford: You know? Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Back, back to the original thing that you talked about as Melissa Ford: Yeah. Talked Matt Kosterman: about making business less personal. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Or anything, you know, your, your siblings relationship, your relationship with your dead parents, your, yeah. Your alive parents. If you're still fortunate enough and, you know. So that's to me what's slowing, slowing down. I used to think when I heard that concept was, oh, inaction, like, slow down. Mm-hmm. Just slow it down, take a break. And sometimes it can be that, but for the most part, it's about slowing down the spinning of the mind, the, the endless thinking, the loops of thinking, the unquestioned reality. And that's, that's my job is to help someone do that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I imagine that you re meet some resistance, especially in some of the higher powered executive suites and whatnot with go, go, go, do, do, do. Right. What's your, what are your, yeah. How, how do you work? How, what are your, your, Melissa Ford: what do I do with that? Right. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. No, we gotta, I gotta, this has to be done and then Melissa Ford: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: We have a deadline. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Well, um, I gotta tell you that I. It's surprising sometimes that you'll get people who are so aware. Like I, I would have a lot of judgements about people inside organizations. Like, oh, they don't get it. They're just on this fast track. There's, there's a lot of people who are aware and they realize that it has a lot to do with their value and their image and their, uh, you know, what they think people are gonna be thinking about them. So sometimes I'll offer up a question such as, okay, um, say you do say you could only do, let, let's play this, this game. Do 5% less? What does that look like? Mm. Mm-hmm. Just to kind of give them a little, like something to play with some, something to imagine. Like if, if you could cut out 5% of what you do or what's on your plate, what would be the first thing to go? Matt Kosterman: Mm. Melissa Ford: And a lot of times I'll have to say to people, and you don't have to do it Matt Kosterman: just hypothetically, what would go. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, if you come up with something and you think it's a really great idea, promise me you're not gonna take any action on it. Mm-hmm. Because what will happen is the mind keeps trying to defend, this is what I have to do and this is how much it is, and the whole thing. Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes what I'll do is, is I'll offer something up and somebody's really dug into a story, then I'll just let 'em go and I'll approach it from another angle. Mm-hmm. I might simply say to them, um. Does your life feel relaxed? Do you feel relaxed at work? What do, what do you think is contributing to this sped up kind of chaotic feeling you're having? If they tell me no, they're not relaxed. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Melissa Ford: Would it be okay if you were 2% more relaxed? Mm-hmm. So I'll just, I, I just try to approach it as best I can. If I feel like there's this major pushback, though, sometimes they're just not ready to approach it. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes they just aren't. So that's the beauty too, of having coaching going on in your life is that you do develop more of an openness, you do develop more of a, um, a, a willingness to consider something else. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Because you've, you've made the commitment. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Melissa Ford: That's it. It really does come down to that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Melissa Ford: If you're just showing up to coaching, checking a box, nothing's gonna change. Matt Kosterman: Right. Right, right, right. Um, yeah. And, and, and on the subject of change, another, another, another piece, uh, that, that, that, that you brought to me was, uh, I think it was from the book, the Way of a Keto, uh, and it was the, the graph. You know, we all, we, we have this idea in our society that changes linear, that growth is linear, that it's gonna be, you know, from the lower left to the upper right in a straight line at, at some particular angle. And there's a great chart in there. I'll do my best to find it and put it a link in. Um, that it's, it, it's a bumpy path. It, it, it might, might have a little, you might have a little. Increase and then it levels out and it might even drop off a little bit. And then, but it's always, you know, if you lay a mathematically, whatever the, you know, regression line over it, it, it is, it is a line upwards to the right. It just doesn't always feel like it. Melissa Ford: Yeah, absolutely. I think the book that I, uh, I don't recall the book you said, but the one that I love is Mastery by George Leonard. Okay. And he talks about, he, it's exactly what you said, and he talks about how there's like an initial bump up, you know, an upward movement in learning. And then there's a place where there's this plateau. Right. But if you zoom in, really, and you look at the plateau, there's ups and downs and ups and downs, but it, that can be the place where your mind's like, I'm stuck. I'm stuck. I'm not going anywhere. Nothing's changed. It's still the same. I recently had somebody complete a, a good chunk of time with me, and out of their mouth came, you know, I'm still in the same place. I'm still in the same place. Mm-hmm. I'm like, no, you're not. Because I could see all these things that had shifted, but their mind was cycling there. So this plateau, uh, what George Leonard would talk about is learn to love the plateau. Ah, okay. Like hang out in the plateau. 'cause there are the ups, there are the downs, and what's happening is there's all this integration, there's this learning, there's this shifting going on, there's this invisible progress, and then all of a sudden there'll just be this, you know, upward movement. Yeah. Where boom, something changes. And then I know you experience it, I experience and it's just like, whoa. It's not, things open up and there's a deepening, uh, of an understanding of whatever it is that you are working on, whether it's communication or sales or a relationship or whatever it is. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Yeah. And yeah. And in that integration, you're, you're the, the mind, you're the mind is learning to let go of the story a little bit. Uh, and, and see, see things a new way. And then one of the, one of the things I've actually, you know, 'cause I'll make anything into a pitfall, right? But the, the, uh, the upward I, I, I find myself getting almost a, you can call it addiction, for lack of a better word. You know, you get addicted to that upward trajectory and, and then when it does flatten out, it's like, Melissa Ford: where, Matt Kosterman: where the drug wore off? Where did it, where did it go? Melissa Ford: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's a great example of the identified mind operating, you know, ego, which is the hit like, Ooh, look at this. I'm smart. Oh, I finally found something. I see something different and new. Right? And then all of a sudden it plateaus out and back in comes the identity. You're never gonna figure this thing out. You can make anything into a pitfall. What the heck's wrong with you? Blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, you're incompetent. That's what my mind would be saying. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, you're not enough. You're not, you're not worthy. Melissa Ford: Yeah. So we'll Matt Kosterman: never get there. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Yeah. So that's that. That's gonna keep happening when the identity pops in. But from that place of awareness, when you know by the beautiful grace of life, you see something different. Mm-hmm. There's nothing that claims that learning or that plateau or anything. You just see it clearly for. What it is, it's, you know, it's life. It's, it's, yeah. Matt Kosterman: It's instead of, and and, and it's developing that witness role that, that I think, you know, you, you alluded to earlier that you're, you're watching, I'm watching this, getting to watch the system that is Matt having these cravings, having this, you know Yeah. As opposed to identifying as the craving. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's a great way to say it. Absolutely. Matt Kosterman: Uh, yeah. And it goes to, you know, like Ramdas's teachings that I, you know, we, we are ultimately, we are awareness, we are attention. That's, that's what we are. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Um, yeah. And quite, quite an undertaking when for most of our lives we've not identified with that. Right. You know, we just, we just haven't, and I think that's part of what life is. It's this experiencing conditioning and these shocks to the system trauma. And for some of us, it's an extreme version of it. Mm-hmm. Now, I didn't, I, I wasn't mentally or physically abused or grew up in poverty or violence, but there's, all of us have these traumas and so all this is going on and life is the, the coming to this awareness of what we are and watching this unlearning and this learning and waking up and falling asleep. And it's kind of the whole, it's the whole thing. It's the whole thing. And sometimes it's sheer beauty and other times it's, Matt Kosterman: hell Melissa Ford: yeah, it's hell, it's, it's, you know, so it's sometimes feels so shame filled. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And that's a big spiral. The shame. I think it's, yeah. It it, I love that you brought up, you know, with your upbringing there, was, there, you, you had for the most part abundance, you had a loving family. Yes. You didn't have physical, you know, or emotional or mental abuse. Um, and, and yet you still found yourself at, at, uh, in difficulty with communicating with your, with your son and, and developing a loving relationship. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Yeah. And operating all the time was, you know, the story of lack and totally unaware of it. I just thought that was, that was me and it was my thing to overcome and it was be your best self. Right. You know, and all that other stuff. And I'll finally change this and I'll see that and then I'll be good. And it was just a up and down and up and down until I started to see beyond. The idea of me, I mean. Mm-hmm. And I don't, you know, I think about that. I think about why did it take the period of time that it took? It's like, oh my gosh. Right. You know, I could have, I, I I, the upside is I'm not on my deathbed. Yeah. But, uh, why does it, why did it take that long? And then finally I was like, well, again, is that, that's fairly right now, that's irrelevant. Yeah. Right. Now what's happening, you know, that's the mind trying to find these answers. Right now you are seeing it and you can continue to explore this and get curious about it. And, Matt Kosterman: and there's, and there's always more. Melissa Ford: There's always more. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I, when, you know, the, the quote that always pops into my head when, when you say, like, you know, why didn't I know this before? It's from the, the Incredibles of, you know, the Mr. Incredible, when they're on a car trip somewhere, it says, we'll be there when we get there. Which is, you know, ultimately there's a, there's another, there's a channel Bashar, uh, who, who talks about, you know, what's your hurry? You're, you're an infinite being. You have no beginning. You have no end. Where are you going? Melissa Ford: Yeah. Where are you going? Matt Kosterman: Where are you going? Melissa Ford: Yeah. And, and we'll get there when we get there. You're there, Matt Kosterman: you're already there in in Yeah. In every moment. Um, and, uh, and, and it's a, it because of the, the conditioning that we've had and the programming, uh, it, it would seem that we are programmed to not think that Yeah. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: That, that, that there's somewhere to go. Melissa Ford: Yeah, I, it, I think that's one of the big things that I come across when I'm coaching people, especially when we're talking about what they are and feelings and, you know, what do they want. A lot of times what they'll, they'll want is they'll want something that's absolutely unachievable. You know, I wanna be happy all the time. I want this person to respect me. I want to feel valued. I, you know, and it's like, well, okay, so you can't have that, but what do you want that you can, like, if you wanna create the next client, let's go do that. If you want the, the, the new job title, let's go after that. Um, but you know. I've lost my train of thought. Matt Kosterman: That's all right. That's all right. I mean, I think it Melissa Ford: reel me back for a second. I Matt Kosterman: mean, we, well, we were, we were talking about, you know, some, there's someplace to get to and, and why aren't I there yet? Or why did it take me so long to get here? And, and it really didn't take you any time to get here. 'cause you're here. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: You are where you are. And I think it also, uh, goes to the, this concept of non-duality. We're we, we live in a duality. Mm-hmm. Meaning if there's good, there has to be bad. If there's happiness, there has to be sadness. You call it karma. Call it whatever you want. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And, and, and so it's, it's, it's a learning to experience and allow any emotion to come through the system that is you without. Melissa Ford: Exactly. So this is, so, thank you. So I can now connect the dots. Thanks for that. Mm-hmm. So they'll wanna know what do they do with these things? That they want, that are unachievable. What do I do with this emotion? What do I do with this? And it's exactly that. It's allowing the sensation to come through without the story. Yeah. And the noticing is the doing. Yeah. Because we're so, we're so wired to, well, I gotta take some action, I've gotta do this, I've gotta do that. I've gotta think more positively. I have to reframe this. I have to, it's like, no, you don't have to do any of that. Right. And so there's this sense of, well, I, I gotta do something. I gotta do something. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Right. Melissa Ford: Yeah. And it's like, so notice then notice and question. Matt Kosterman: Absolutely. Melissa Ford: Ask yourself questions. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. The emotions. Uh, I mean, one of my big learnings I've gotten is it's, you know, it's e emotion. It's energy and motion. Melissa Ford: Mm. And, Matt Kosterman: and they're meant to move through the body. Uh, and I don't know if, you know, you talk to your experience about trapping them, you know, where do they get trapped? Where does the emotion get trapped? Where does it not, where does it not want to be expressed? And that, and that's usually the pain point and the point, you know, if it's just express it and, and get it, get it out. I was talking to somebody yesterday about that and, and they said, you know, uh, I, you know, I I was, I'm too much or, or, or, or there was, there was some, there was some emotion. Oh, it was, uh, we were talking about psychedelics, which is, you know, one of my favorite topics. And, uh, there was a fear, oh, I don't, uh, you know, I don't, there's this, there's all this stuff buried and I don't want to get it out. And I was like, why the fuck not, it's why it's much better. Trust me. It's much better when it's out than when it's in, because that's when it does the damage. Melissa Ford: Yeah. So, so, so did they say why they didn't wanna get it out? Matt Kosterman: No, but they went, I. Oh yeah, you're right. You can't, when it's, when it's out, what's it gonna do? It's been expressed. That's what it wanted the whole time. It wanted to be expressed. Yeah. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: You know, in, in your case. I, I would say it would seem that, you know, that I'm, I'm, I'm not, your version of I'm not enough was, was trapped and, and, and running your life. Melissa Ford: Oh yeah. Again, not even knowing it was running my life. Right. Um, a great example of that would be the inability to ask for what I wanted. Because if I didn't matter then if I asked you for what I wanted and you told me no, that was confirmation I didn't matter. And Yeah. And devastating. Yeah. Yeah. So what was cool about that was seeing all the times where I wouldn't ask for what I wanted. Now it's, it's still sometimes if I ask for what I want, I get told no, I might feel a hit. Yeah. But I'm aware of what's going on. It's this story that's operating versus, it's not a real thing. It doesn't mean anything other than Oh yeah. That's what's happening. So one of the things that I do is I ask, keep asking for what I want, especially when it's uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because otherwise it just, it's the same play out, it's the same reinforcement, it's the same re-traumatizing, it's the same thing. Yeah. So you're telling that person to let it out is awesome. Ask, ask whatever it is, whatever it is. Matt Kosterman: Whatever it is. Yeah. And in your case, you're, you're willing to take the emotional hit, that rejection may. Provide, you know, there, there, there may be an emotion that is triggered by rejection and that's okay. Melissa Ford: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's an emotion triggered by a story about someone saying no. Yeah. Right. Again, so there isn't a rejection, there's just a no, and then whatever response is occurring here is coming through. Whatever that in the meaning is of a No. Matt Kosterman: That's the, that's the filter that it goes through. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Melissa Ford: Yep. And that's the trigger. That's the, that's it. That's what's intolerable. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And in, and, and, and getting in, I think it's, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's both getting some space from that and allowing the feeling to be The feeling. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And not making the feeling wrong, righting the feeling. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing that I'm learning is that the feeling, the emotion can be allowed as a sensation without the story. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Melissa Ford: It can just be not all the, not all the time. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, sure. No, that's a great point. Yeah. That it, it, it can just be the emotion. That's okay. You don't have to hook, hook it to the story. Melissa Ford: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: That's it. Yeah. Which, which, which goes back to, you know, kind of what I, I said earlier was talking about how I wanted, I always wanted to, for a long time link it back to something that happened in childhood. Oh, well this is because this happened in childhood. No, I've had the experience of doing a lot of shadow work in this last year and just the, the, the immense amount of anger that has been, that was repressed in me. I. Uh, that I, you know, I mean, I've had like this lion just growling after, you know, exercises and just fucking pissed off and I don't know what it was pissed off about, but just let it be pissed off. You know, like, just get it out. Like I said, like, why do I want that inside me? Melissa Ford: Yeah, I know, I know. I find it really funny when I'll hear somebody say, oh, I don't get angry, and I'm just like, oh, oh, Matt Kosterman: right. Melissa Ford: Okay. Matt Kosterman: Alright, my dear. Thank you so much for your time. It's always such a pleasure to get to chat with you. And, uh, same Melissa Ford: Matt, it's, it's been fun and I, anytime we get together and we start to have conversation and. Ask me if I know someone and I don't. I'm always looking forward to those conversations. It's a pleasure. Matt Kosterman: Thank you. Love you lots. I love you too, my dear. Uh, and uh, until next time. Melissa Ford: Okay. Take care. Matt Kosterman: Take care. Be well.