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The PDP Reality Check: What Schools Are Learning w/ Rohit Vaswani · IB Unplugged

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Welcome to IB Unplugged, a Kognity podcast for IBDP educators,
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that tackles your submitted questions and challenges by connecting you with
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experts and peers who share their ideas and stories from real classrooms.
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Hi everybody, and welcome to another episode of IB Unplugged.
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Today we're talking with Rohit Vaswani.
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We're talking about the personal development plan in the IB.
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Anybody who's done the personal development plan or has it coming up,
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you know that it's a little bit daunting and intimidating,
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and can sometimes feel like a tick box exercise.
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And so we're really excited to be talking with Rohit
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about how we can make that a lot better.
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Now, I actually had the chance of getting to meet Rohit a few years ago.
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I was leading a workshop on DP coordinators and Rohit was there.
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He has been the DP coordinator at Oberoi International School in India.
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Doing some great work there.
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And I'll tell you what, this guy just absolutely loves the IB
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mission, the philosophies and the intentions here behind the PDP.
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And I think that's going to be evident here in this episode for you as well.
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And you're going to see some really insightful ways that we can make
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meaningful actions out of these PDP's instead of just tick boxes.
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Exactly.
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So in this conversation, we're going to dive
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into a lot of the different experiences and ways that his schools
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have really been able to make meaningful change, get the students involved.
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And we're going to see some ideas where you can take the PDP from something
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that can be quite high up in, like the leadership side
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and really make it something
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that feels like a full global school mission to drive change.
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So with that, we hope you’ll enjoy this episode.
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And let's bring out Rohit.
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Hi, Rohit.
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Welcome to IB Unplugged. We’re so glad to have you today.
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Hi, Courtney. Hi, John.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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I've watched a few episodes of IB Unplugged and really enjoyed
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the depth and authenticity of conversations you've created,
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and it's also refreshing to hear such honest reflections from the IB community.
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And I must say, you both make hosting look deceptively easy with being so amazing
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at it, and I hope I can keep up with that level of conversation today.
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Very kind of you. Thank you.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Very kind. And I'm sure you will. Yeah.
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Well, let's go ahead and dive in.
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And, yeah, one of our first questions here, Rohit.
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We want to let everybody get to know you a little bit more.
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Why education?
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Well, for me, education has always felt less like a career choice
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and more like a calling that revealed itself over time.
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Interestingly, I didn't started education.
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One of those educators that started in some other stream.
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I explored technology for a bit and did consulting,
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and those those experiences were very valuable.
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They taught me structure, systems thinking and efficiency.
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But somewhere in the journey, I realized that while those roles engaged
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my mind, they didn't quite,
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how do I say, engage my heart, so to say.
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And I found myself constantly drawn back to the classroom.
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So, I mean, I feel like there's something about the moment
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when a student gets it or, you know, when they start questioning you back
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or when they start surprising themselves that that energy is kind of addictive.
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So I feel like there's something incredibly powerful
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about being part of someone's professional and intellectual growth.
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I mean, you're not just delivering content, but
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you're like, shaping how someone sees themselves.
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And I, for one, was deeply influenced by one of my teachers growing up.
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Yeah.
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Not because of what they taught, but because of how
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they made me feel about learning.
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Yeah.
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I mean, they made me believe that I was capable of a lot more than I
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actually thought I was.
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And I realized very early on that whether you love or hate
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a subject has very little to do with the subject itself.
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And then everything you do with the person teaching it.
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So I think somewhere deep down I want it to be for someone
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what the teacher was for me.
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So if I had to answer simply why education,
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because it's
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that one space where you can influence both minds and futures.
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I think it's also one of those
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beautiful professions that carries heart and purpose.
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And I generally feel very fortunate to wake up every day
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and to get to do something that I actually cared about.
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Beautiful answer.
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Yeah, that's a gorgeous answer.
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Great.
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Well today we're going to kind of dive into the PDP
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and kind of your experiences around that.
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And so I thought that we could start by just asking
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what your initial reaction was to the PDP when it was first introduced.
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I think,
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the original intention behind PDP is in general, and as I understand it,
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was to make that professional growth
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a lot more intentional rather than incidental.
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Like in schools, we are constantly doing something or the other way,
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constantly reflecting, attending workshops, trying new things.
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And sometimes we hear it almost feel,
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it's almost like an initiative overload of sorts.
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But PDP is were meant to pause that cycle and ask,
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what are we deliberately getting better at.
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And more importantly, why.
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it was meant to connect that
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growth directly to what students need.
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And by virtue of it, what the program requires.
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So I guess it was about alignment between individual growth, student needs,
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departmental priorities and the broader IB standards.
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So I think the idea behind the PDP was to bring in that development
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by not making it so random, but very purposeful and intentional.
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That's great.
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Yeah.
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And I guess, you know, after a year of doing the personal development plan
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or maybe in your first year of doing the personal development plan,
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what's one word you would use to describe your experience with that?
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Well, that's, actually a very interesting question,
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and if I'm reflecting my journey through this,
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I think, if there was one word that I would want to describe for it,
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maybe recalibrating would be that word.
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Again, because if I think
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translating the intention into practice wasn't really automatic.
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It required us to adjust expectations
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at multiple levels, like what meaningful goal setting
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looks like or how ambitious yet realistic targets should be.
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And how much structure versus flexibility was needed.
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So we really needed to kind of align the original intent of PDP's
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as development tools with the realities of its implementation,
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because, let's face it, it's always a busy school year.
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So I think,
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setting that right tone
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where PDP's felt kind of growth oriented
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rather than evaluative, reflective rather than procedural,
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I think that was the kind of recalibration
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that I felt was something that helped.
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I'm sure anybody who's listening from the IB is very glad you didn't
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just say tedious or,
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something like this.
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Yeah, well, let's dive into that here in our first segment.
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We really want to get into understanding, you know,
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what is the personal development plan supposed to be?
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What's its intention? Why are we kind of aiming for it?
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So what's the original intention behind the PDP in the IB deployment program?
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Pretty much similar.
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I think, like I said, the whole idea with which the IB came up with the PDP
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was to look at growth and look at where the school wants to be,
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and where they currently are, and more importantly,
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how they want to achieve that.
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So while there can be couple of multiple things
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happening that you really want to continue to build and grow,
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look at this one focus area
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where you will be a lot more intentional,
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a lot more committed and evolve through it.
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So it's a process and IB is really clear about it.
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If it's an evolution of where you think you started from
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and where you want to be, and in the journey, if that's something
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that's taking you somewhere and it's taking a little bit of time
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and it requires you to think a lot more about things that you initially did not,
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then be it.
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So I think the intention behind the PDP is purely to
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be a lot more reflective and more so focused and committed reflection
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into where you want to go and where you want to be.
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How does it connect to
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kind of the core elements of the IB?
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Like what the ATL skills with well being kind of all the different elements.
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How does it pull those in?
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I'm actually very glad you asked this Courtney, because you know
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when we think about ATL’s or you know,
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talk about core or talk about, you know, your TOK,
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well being, EE, CAS, we think of it that this sit in the student world
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and when we look at PDP's it's something that teachers do.
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You know, it's always that kind of a thought process that comes across.
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But I think the answer to what you just asked
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is rooted somewhere in system design and thinking, because
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PDP is essentially shaped the way in which you design your lesson experiences.
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So when teachers are intentional in their practice,
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that directly impacts how they nurture those ATL skills.
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So, for example, if a teacher's PDP focuses on improving feedback
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or inquiry design, then that organically strengthens self-management
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or reflection or thinking skills, which are core ATL competencies.
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And I think
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even an interesting element you brought about is about wellbeing.
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While that may not be an
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explicit connection, but a very strong connection to the PDP's,
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like when professional growth is structured, purposeful and not reactive
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in a sense it kind of reduces that uncertainty
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and builds teacher’s confidence.
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So if teachers are clear, it directly affects or impacts
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the kind of classroom climate that they have around them.
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And that means students experience more consistency,
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clearer expectations,
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stronger support.
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And I think that all contributes to the way in which it affects wellbeing.
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Very, very important element.
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And I'm very passionate about the core bit that the diploma builds
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into the whole system design and the program design.
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I think PDP's..
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Or is where the PDP actually becomes a lot more visible.
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The core demands
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scaffolding of reflection like academic honesty,
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independent research and a very strong element of agency.
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And I vividly remember this,
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so PDP was essentially around assessments.
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We talked about
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using a variety of tools and strategies
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to build assessment capable learners,
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essentially stemmed from a strategic intent on assessment.
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And I remember in one of the data points
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that we collected, students
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didn't score us very high on co-constructing assessment criteria.
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And when we started to look at the lens of.. I mean, in MYP, it's a framework.
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You have your TSC’s you can co-build it.
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When we talked about DP,
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we realized that these are rubrics
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sent by the IB like, you know, how are we co constructing it.
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What do we do?
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So that kind of prompted reflection.
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And then then we we sort of piloted with TOK and we said
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maybe let's unpack very explicitly the rubric that IB has shared.
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So for example, in your TOK essay
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clarifying what focused versus sustained connection to title meant, what
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effective linking to areas of knowledge look like compared to superficial linking.
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So we made those sample responses a lot more visible.
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So we broke these and dissected these terms further down.
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That probably might seem a little bit more open to interpretation.
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So that's when we realized that co-construction might also look like
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giving a
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lot more detailed and structure to what IB has already shared.
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And it was so interesting, that we saw
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a clearer understanding of high quality work from students.
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And that tied in with a PDP focus of assessment capability
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and assessment capable learners.
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And I think
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this started speaking the language of criteria.
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I did hear a lot of students really referencing
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that rubric and criteria that IB laid out.
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So it was not just about performance but understanding.
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So to answer your question,
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how does it affect ATL,
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wellbeing, core, I think it is teachers that shape
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classroom design and classroom design shapes ATL, or well-being or core.
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So I think connection may not be direct, but it is pretty systemic in a sense.
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So I think it really impacts and makes a big difference
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to what we're doing with the program.
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I have a
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clarifying question that might be really basic, but
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I'm asking anyway because I don't think I can get through without.
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The PDP. I think I was thinking of it more on a teacher by teacher level,
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but from what you're saying, it's almost like the school has one PDP,
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but each teacher looks at how their performance
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can be improved, like what they need to do as individuals.
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But there's one unified PDP.
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Is that how you guys have approached it?
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Correct. So there are multiple approaches, honestly.
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A school can have a separate program looking at a separate PDP focus.
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Say for example, PYP has something related to their teaching
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and learning practices.
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MYP may be different, DP may be different.
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But what we has was,
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we had a very clear direction
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from our leadership team that we are looking at
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building one PDP focus for all the three programs.
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In fact, we ran two campuses, so it was all six programs across campuses.
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We were already doing a lot of work around assessment,
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and that was a strategic intent.
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So we said, let's build on areas that we haven't touched upon.
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So it was very clear as a mandate that we want to have
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a single PDP focus throughout the three programs.
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So that everyone speaks the same language.
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There's a shared narrative.
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The ecosystem that we build around is focused
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on assessment capability, use variety of tools and strategies.
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So I mean, it became a lot more focused.
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And it also became like one purpose for everybody in the building.
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So it's put people together and both that
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community coherence also in a sense.
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What I love about what you're saying here so far, Rohit,
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is it's very clear that we're using this for deep reflection.
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We're using this for,
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you know, essentially reevaluating what's going on in our schools.
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And you can see how what you've just discussed,
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you can integrate this very well into the specific academic planning.
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You can involve students in co-construction of process
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assessment criteria, this sort of thing.
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So I think one of the biggest things that you've immediately sort of torn
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the, I don't know, turn the sticker off I guess, is just
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this isn't necessarily like,
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let's just take some boxes and make sure everything's going there.
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It's a matter
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of like a deep, reflective process that allows the school to really improve.
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And I guess, would you say that's the biggest gap between
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the IB intention and how PDP's are often used in schools?
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Or from your perspective, what's kind of the biggest gap there?
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Absolutely, John.
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I think, you've totally got this
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the point absolutely across I mean,
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I think one of the biggest gaps
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or challenges is,
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like PDP’s are intended to be development tools,
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but more often than not, they end up being those compliance tools.
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Like you rightly said, the tick box that you want to make.
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And if I'm being honest, during evaluation cycles
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when everyone is juggling a lot of things, it can seem overwhelming.
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And it can seem easy or convenient
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for schools to probably put a PDP focus
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of something that they're really good at, because they want to make it
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like putting it out there and take that box and get done with it,
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because there's so much happening.
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Almost see it as an interruption to what they're normally doing at school.
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Right?
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And I think that's when the PDP's risks becoming cosmetic
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rather than, you know, catalytic in their intention.
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Like you said, it's about deep reflection.
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It's about truly thinking where you are.
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And we were very clear in our understanding,
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or rather, our leadership team,
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we had a clear mandate.
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We want to make it as authentic as it is.
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And, that said, IB is also
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looking at it as with a lens of appreciative inquiry.
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I mean, it's okay even if you’ve put down a PDP
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and you've not met it in the desired time.
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You’ve started the process,
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you've committed to something and you've read somewhere
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where you probably weren't,
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if not the end goal
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at that particular point, but you've actually started to reflect on it.
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So I think, it's very, very important that
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PDP should create a space for stretch, for identifying
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that real growth area and even if it is uncomfortable.
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I would say that if you're picking those areas
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that don't seem very comfortable or convenient, you're being authentic.
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And that's where the real development will actually lie.
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And it's interesting
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because if I think of it another challenge or gap
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that I realize now, that comes through my mind, is also alignment.
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More often than not, PDP's are powerful
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only when those individual growth ladders are put together in program priorities.
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So, if there isn't structured dialog connecting those goals,
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they kind of become isolated, everyone improving in different directions,
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rather than building like a collective capacity.
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So I think,
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what Courtney just asked sometime back, we had a clear
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understanding that we are doing all three programs together.
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Everyone looks at one focus.
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I think that tone setting is really important.
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It needs to look growth oriented.
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It needs to look not evaluative of sort.
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And it's kind of that culture.
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And I think once you start building that through,
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from the very beginning, I think,
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PDP just seems very organic
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and it's not like I have to do this, then I have to do this.
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Oh my God,
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I have to make evidences out of this, and I have to throw this in the document.
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And, you know, all the jazz.
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It really highlights for me also the importance of
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good strategic leadership. Because as you mentioned, it's
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not everybody going in their own directions.
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And I don't think people do that in a way to be difficult.
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They notice in their own reflective practice
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like, oh, here's something I want to work on, here's something I want to work on
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and through all the best intentions, you can kind of see the school going
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in many different ways.
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And then student experience, or if you had like a coordinator level
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experience, is suddenly like, whoa, everybody, what are we doing?
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Let's get kind of one road here.
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So, yeah, just as you're saying here, you can see where one sort of
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strategic vision on what's going to happen here.
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And clearly communicating
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that can be a really powerful thing for everybody at the school.
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Yeah.
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I guess it also helps with leadership thinking about like if you have
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a group of people and everyone's trying to improve in different directions,
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every single experience is siloed out,
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where if everybody is trying to improve in the same way, then leadership
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can also invest more heavily in
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their own ability
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to support all of the teachers and putting people together.
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What are you doing? Being able to learn from each other.
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So I agree that that unified growth, even if maybe some teachers
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like this is actually, the one thing I do think I am doing.
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Wow. Like,
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there can be experiences like that, but then I guess
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that gives them the opportunity to work with the other teachers
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and build that community of growth that you're talking about.
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All right.
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Well, we've kind of clarified the intentions of the PDP
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and what we should be aiming for as a school.
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Let's get into kind of our second segment here.
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What's working in practice and what doesn't work in practice.
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And I wonder if,
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you know, you kind of shared one example of that co-construction of criteria for
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like assessment criteria.
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You know, what are some examples from your school
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where that PDP has led to some really meaningful student engagement?
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Oh well, there were quite a few I think, one of the most visible shifts that I saw,
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was actually in the overall learning experience. PDP conversations
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began influencing assessment design a lot more intentionally.
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So there was a conscious movement towards
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more continuous assessment of wider range of assessment methods.
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So instead of especially in DP relying heavily on high
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stake moments in exams, students got multiple opportunities
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to demonstrate their understanding across different formats, their written
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responses, oral discussions, or reflective components or application tasks.
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And that tied in with the idea of our PDP that we wanted to use different
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strategies and different variety of tools to build that assessment capability.
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So I'm not saying that it took away from the rigor
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that required that DP’s normally associated with,
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but it kind of deepened that conceptual understanding,
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because students engage with similar ideas but with a different lens.
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So they were kind of being assessed for the, you know, for
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maybe a particular aspect using one way in
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written response and maybe with the other way in reflective understanding,
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or probably breaking down a rubric or probably looking at a sample response.
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So there was continuous assessment of sorts.
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It may not be like formally documented
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on your learning management systems, but there was learning.
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There was that conceptual understanding that was getting deepen.
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The other shift that I saw was in the feedback culture.
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Very, very important, element when we talk about assessments.
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Because the PDP goals also improve,
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talked about improving feedback practices because we wanted assessments
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to look a lot more meaningful and the take away to happen for students.
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So it didn't just say, oh, this is a five.
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It shifted from, you know, here's what your analysis is.
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Here's what you're doing well.
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Here's what's limiting it.
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And it didn't directly come from teachers.
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And there were times where teachers
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may have said, okay, this is, this band response.
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We literally had students come to them.
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Okay. Why do you think so?
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And they started referencing the band descriptors.
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I remember this very vividly in one of the language and literature assessments.
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Students literally came back and told me, okay, what about this is telling you
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I'm a five?
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So student started engaging a lot more.
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So there was a movement from judgment to guidance.
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I mean, that classroom tone changed.
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Students felt a lot more supported,
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and they didn't feel like they were being evaluated all the time.
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They didn't feel like, it was about grades, of course, but they didn't feel like
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we are writing an assessment for marks or grades.
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So I think that they are willingness to revise
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and take those academic risks, sort of,
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you know, improved and how.
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So we really saw that.
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I think one of the most powerful outcome that I remember as I speak
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is students started demonstrating stronger ownership of learning.
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And that's when we said this is assessment capability.
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We want them to be a lot more accountable, a lot more responsible
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for where they're heading to in whatever thing.
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If they are okay.
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We made them do a pentagon activity where we mapped them
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across their actual HL subjects, SL subjects, score points.
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You know, basically if you are at level five,
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it would give you a perfect pentagon.
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And, when we did that activity, interestingly, you found out
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almost more than half of the cohort said
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that we are not doing good at our SL subjects.
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And now thinking that we are investing a little too much time for HL’s,
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because at the end, it's going to build together
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and give us those 45, including, you know, including those SL subjects.
25:30
So students really started actively seeking feedback.
25:34
They started referencing criteria language.
25:36
They started engaging more meaningfully in self-reflection.
25:40
This pentagon activity served as a beautiful self-reflection tool.
25:45
It really came to a point where this engagement shift
25:48
didn't look very dramatic. Like it
25:49
wasn't as a one point I say, a-ha moment of sorts, like it was cumulative.
25:54
It like students really started
25:56
to be began to understand the mechanics of assessment.
26:00
And we would see those,
26:02
I mean, in observable ways, if not tangible ways all the time.
26:06
We could see how they were really responding
26:09
to the feedback or responding to their own learning journey.
26:12
And we felt quite happy because we're looking at these kids going to university
26:16
in two years time and leading an absolutely independent life,
26:21
and if they're taking ownership of their learning right now, we feel really happy
26:25
that these skills are automatically built in for the university readiness.
26:29
Well, I guess what I'm asking is, like, often
26:31
you'll have students come in and kind of argue a grade, right?
26:33
And like, here's where it is.
26:35
This the rubric, you mis evaluated me like,
26:38
as I was listening to you, I was like, okay, that's pretty cool.
26:40
They've got some ownership of it. They want to develop it.
26:43
But then I'm kind of the devil's advocate in my head was like, aren't
26:46
they just.. Were they just arguing for a grade?
26:48
I'm going to be honest.
26:49
We did have a couple of those instances as well.
26:52
But I think what we really need to do
26:55
is move them from that zone of denial
26:58
where they're coming from the lens of
27:01
I want to, I'm referencing this rubric or this criteria
27:05
because I want my marks increased, to the lens that, you know,
27:10
this is what it is and this is where you've gone wrong,
27:13
or this is where you probably can improve through.
27:16
Yes, I can walk you through where you've gone wrong.
27:18
But you have to understand that without you not accepting the fact
27:22
that this is more like a transformational journey of sorts.
27:26
So again, it came about one of the elements of assessment capability.
27:31
You've got to be mature enough to understand where you currently are
27:36
and not just come across saying that, oh, I got this grade.
27:39
I think I deserve more.
27:40
And here's the reason. Tell me now, you know?
27:43
Well, you can see how including them
27:45
in the scaffolding process of creating that assessment criteria,
27:49
that makes it a lot better, because the number of times
27:51
somebody, I've had a student maybe argue for a particular mark
27:54
by referencing a criteria or something like this,
27:57
and then we have to come up, we drill it down.
27:58
I’m like, well, what does that word mean?
28:00
And they can't quite explain.
28:02
I'm like, I think that's probably the issue here.
28:04
You think this means this, but not that.
28:05
And so, yeah, including them, as you say,
28:09
at the start of that and as they kind of build it together, helps them have a lot
28:12
more ownership and buy in to recognize, oh, this is what I'm performing to, right?
28:16
Yeah, I think, John, even as IB educators, having thought. Like I still remember
28:21
one of my IA criteria says sophistication and rigor in math.
28:26
Okay?
28:26
So now these are terms which can cover a plethora of things
28:31
like clearly and as IB educators, even if you mark zillions of IA’s and done
28:36
this, we still feel like, okay, do we want to give this another lens?
28:40
Do we want someone to just moderate it and see it through?
28:43
And these are kids who are doing the diploma for the first time.
28:45
So, it's important that it's also okay for them to feel
28:50
that they should deserve better grades because maybe
28:54
that there's a gray area of understanding between those terms.
28:57
And we as educators still bracket us in that box.
29:01
I think it's only fair for kids to ask.
29:03
So I think, it is perfectly fine for kids to come in and check in on those lines,
29:08
but it was also very equally important for them to mature up
29:13
in terms of understanding that, hey, this really is the case.
29:17
And if we are looking at it from a lens of,
29:21
improving and then looking at the lens
29:22
from how we can bring in guided support, then this is great.
29:28
Are you an IB educator wanting
29:30
to improve your practice and needing just a bit more support getting there?
29:34
Ever wanted to learn more about a specific aspect of the diploma program?
29:37
Or just ask a question to an educational theorist about a specific IB aspect?
29:42
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29:44
Simply visit kognity.com/ibunplugged to submit your question to us,
29:49
and have your question explored in more detail in an upcoming episode.
29:53
And now, back to the show.
29:56
I think this is really great, but I'm wondering also,
29:58
I think John had one example of like, at what point is it just students
30:03
feeling more empowered to argue their grade, but not necessarily
30:08
it shifting the conversation, but what other challenges
30:11
were, coming up early on?
30:16
I think there were quite a few because like,
30:19
we were enthusiastic in general and clear about our direction
30:22
and genuinely convinced about the value of building that assessment capability.
30:28
But, you know, when you're that convinced there is this natural temptation
30:33
to kind of assume.
30:35
Like, kind of assume that everyone is on the same page,
30:39
kind of assume that everyone understands this the way that you understand.
30:45
So I think starting early on, we were like really,
30:49
really empowered and we wanted to make a big difference.
30:53
And I think the biggest initial takeaway or challenges was also the pace.
31:00
How I said for TOK,
31:01
how they unpack the core construction or assessment criteria.
31:06
And we saw visible improvement.
31:07
But what works in TOK doesn't essentially
31:11
translate very directly in almost at that speed to say
31:14
a mathematics or say sciences, without thoughtful adaptation.
31:19
So I think each discipline needed that space to reinterpret
31:23
the idea through their own lens.
31:25
So give them that space, give them that time to sort of
31:29
that those ideas to sink in for them to build that whole ecosystem around it.
31:34
I think that was one of my takeaway in terms of
31:37
when we identified one of the first few challenges.
31:40
We're also a very big school.
31:42
So with the big school comes its own
31:46
challenges of consistencies.
31:49
So even when teachers agreed with the direction,
31:52
the interpretation of implementation was varied,
31:56
like some departments moved quickly,
31:59
they experimented a lot more confidently, while others needed
32:02
a little bit more scaffolding, a little bit more reassurance.
32:06
And that reminded us that improvement really isn't linear.
32:10
Like, it's not form.
32:11
People are going to take their time. So,
32:15
that consistency also needs to be monitored in a certain sense
32:18
that it should not be that it is pretty much in a particular
32:23
section or a particular department,
32:24
and not essentially trickling down to the others.
32:27
Yeah.
32:28
That was also one of the initial challenges.
32:30
And I'm thinking it through,
32:33
I think if I've learned
32:34
anything from that phase is that build that space for dialog,
32:38
allow departments to contextualize
32:41
and keep returning to evidence.
32:44
A page doesn't live in a document, really.
32:47
It lives in conversations and it lives in the fact that
32:53
you have conversations and reflective dialog around it and continue doing that.
32:57
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
32:59
And I think that,
33:01
in my work, I'm, really interested in change management
33:04
and there's so many different ways around, and everybody's
33:07
got a different model for it.
33:09
But ones that, things that I think always come back
33:12
and the really human parts of change management is like,
33:18
you're not going to change if you don't want to.
33:21
I think that's one really big one.
33:23
So like having that buy in, I think is really hard,
33:27
especially like you said, you're doing this not just, okay,
33:30
our DP science cohort is going to work on this.
33:33
It's like, no, everybody across two campuses, three, MYP, DP,
33:40
it's massive to get that much buy in from that many different stakeholders.
33:45
And that's such a key part of it.
33:48
I mean, how did you get everyone to buy in
33:52
to the extent that you can see meaningful change?
33:55
I think,
33:57
we invested a lot in mentor training.
33:59
We really brought in everyone together in the process.
34:05
So it wasn't just six IB program
34:08
coordinators across campuses formulating the PDP.
34:12
We asked teachers, we came up with an idea.
34:17
We talked to them about it.
34:19
We talked to parents.
34:20
We talked to students about it. What do you feel?
34:22
What do you think about it?
34:24
The minute you ask them those questions, you kind of transfer that ownership
34:30
or accountability and that directly brings in that buy-In of sorts.
34:35
We invest a lot in mentor training.
34:37
It really plays a very, very big role.
34:40
These mentor conversations varied widely, not because people weren't committed,
34:45
but because each person brought their own style, comfort level
34:48
interpretation of what a good PDP dialog look like.
34:53
So, mentors who learned..
34:55
There were some mentors who learned more instructional,
34:57
but there were some who learned a lot more reflective.
35:00
And that's when we realized that we needed to share protocols like we needed to,
35:05
so we moved from broad messaging to modeling.
35:09
So rather than saying,
35:10
increase school construction, we shared concrete classroom examples.
35:15
We curated practices across departments.
35:17
We created shared platforms to showcase them and made that peer learning visible.
35:24
And I must say that there were uncertainties at times, but
35:27
you know, some mentors were unsure about how challenging
35:31
it should be, or others wondered how far they could push that alignment
35:36
with school priorities and by honoring everyone's individual interests of sort.
35:41
But I think it's also equally important to normalize these uncertainties
35:45
for them to feel that it's okay to feel the way that you feel.
35:49
So automatically that buy-in element they knew, like like, you know,
35:53
you feel supported, you feel like it's okay if it's not happening.
35:57
Let's talk about it. Let's see it.
35:59
So that psychology play in, in terms of that narrative
36:03
brings in that additional level of buy-in.
36:06
So I think when that started to happen, mentors began sharing
36:10
what worked, what didn't, and also consistency improved.
36:15
Not because we scripted those conversations,
36:18
but because we built that kind of shared understanding.
36:22
Yeah.
36:22
So I think for buy-in very, very important for us all
36:27
as educators to come together to invest a lot in mental training,
36:33
because at the end of the day, a lot of these
36:36
implementation of the PDP are essentially the teachers in classroom.
36:41
So they really need to know beyond the intent.
36:44
While, yes, a lot of them had really good intentions, but intent often
36:49
does not translate into implementation or impact for that matter.
36:53
So trying to make them see through that, that this is how you could
36:58
possibly look at maybe this is what works for a math department.
37:02
Does it work for US science departments?
37:04
Maybe. Maybe yes. Maybe not.
37:06
How do you want to tweak it and go for it?
37:09
Like it's okay if you try it and it doesn't work,
37:11
but let's just try it of sorts.
37:13
So that kind of brought in that
37:15
that buy-in and that understanding and that coherence together.
37:18
What I love about what you just described here, Rohit,
37:20
is it sounds like it was a real
37:22
a community engagement, a real like, let's get everybody involved in this.
37:26
And I kept hearing in my head
37:28
that sort of like mantra of like high expectations, low threat.
37:31
And it sounded like you kind of, it was clear that what we were doing with
37:35
this PDP was a process of reflection and trying to improve our practices
37:40
and make ourselves better, but not through the lens of like,
37:43
whatever we're doing wrong, let's undo that.
37:46
And you know, correct that or you have to get out of there.
37:49
It seems like there was very low threat, but just let's buy-in
37:52
into these high expectations together, which I think is great.
37:55
Yeah.
37:55
And you know what you outlined there in terms of the mentor role
37:59
and the conversations that are taking place there
38:01
and that sort of shared protocol and consistency,
38:04
I think you can see how that would make that work a lot better.
38:08
And I hope anybody who's listening right now is hearing like, okay,
38:10
I don't necessarily just have to throw the criteria
38:13
in front of everybody at my school and say, right, let's go through this.
38:15
Are we doing that,
38:16
for rather, you know, get everybody involved in it.
38:19
And at the same time that I'm wondering, you know, on the DP
38:22
especially, there are natural sort of pinch points or heavier
38:26
moments like, I know you got mock exams that are kind of going on now, or
38:30
you might have interview exams in DP year one, or like,
38:35
you know, major deadlines, drafts, that sort of stuff.
38:39
You know, in those moments where it's easy for, I think, students
38:43
and for that matter, teachers to be a little bit more performative.
38:45
Right.
38:45
Just focused on what's the grade, let's get the right grade, that sort of thing.
38:50
How were those conversations around your personal development plan
38:53
affected when, for lack of better term, it kind of like, all right,
38:57
but this is going to hit the road now.
38:58
This is all sort of fun philosophy and we're getting better.
39:00
But right now it's my future.
39:02
How did those conversations shift?
39:03
I think, what you said is so true,
39:06
John.
39:07
But I also, I feel like anchoring those PDP conversations to key milestones,
39:12
like you just said, the mock exams or the EE submissions felt a lot more real.
39:17
It shifted from it feeling abstract or philosophical, like you said.
39:21
So when PDP discussions were happening in isolation at the beginning of the year,
39:26
it sometimes felt conceptual.
39:29
But you know, when we tie it to these moments of evidence,
39:32
the quality of reflections improves.
39:34
So, for example, after mock exams,
39:36
instead of just analyzing a student performance data or,
39:41
you know, if that was the focus or if one of the goals was around
39:45
improving feedback, formative feedback, or scaffolding extended responses,
39:50
those mock scripts became those tangible evidence.
39:54
So in a way, it told us what worked and
39:57
where are the students still struggling?
40:00
That intent of us building this strategy, like we said, various tools
40:04
and strategies.
40:05
We did these strategies.
40:06
Did it really work? Did it not?
40:09
What does it tell me about this instructional approach?
40:12
So it gave that data point.
40:14
And whenever the data bit comes in, there is automatically more
40:19
buy-In of sorts because you're linking that concept to evidence,
40:24
even around graphs. Like, PDP goals related to let's,
40:28
favorite one talk about core construction of, criteria.
40:32
Like when we talked about EE drafts, teachers,
40:35
you know, could reflect
40:36
on how effectively students were responding to that guidance
40:40
because we unpacked those criteria, we dissected them,
40:43
and we wanted to know how independent they were becoming.
40:47
And whether that's scaffolding was actually working in a sense or not.
40:51
So at those intentional checkpoints, in EE drafts,
40:55
we found those drafts were a lot more richer,
40:58
because before we would give feedback, kids were sort of scanning it
41:02
through the lens of the rubrics, because now they were aware of, say,
41:06
what example sophisticated or legal could probably mean,
41:10
or a sustained reference
41:11
or a superficial reference to the title means, those lines.
41:14
Yeah. So I think,
41:17
when we tied in our PDP
41:19
with these intentional milestones,
41:23
what change was the shift from hypothetical growth
41:28
to evidence informed growth.
41:32
And it kind of acted as a mirror like it moved PDP conversations from
41:36
I think this is improving to, okay, here's what the student’s
41:40
data is telling me, here's what this milestone is telling me.
41:44
And like I said, with data, we also saw
41:47
that it reduced defensiveness.
41:51
So when reflections are anchored in shared evidence
41:54
rather than personal perception, the dialog becomes
41:57
more of professional and and relatively less personal.
42:01
So I think those milestones gave PDP's
42:06
that texture, that connected that concept to an underlying evidence.
42:11
I think that's such an important part that I don't think is necessarily
42:15
emphasized enough in teacher professional development
42:18
of like, actually meeting them where they're at,
42:22
in these real moments and accepting that they are
42:27
people like,
42:28
who have specific needs at specific times like,
42:32
the PDP is one of a lot of things that they're worrying
42:36
about and thinking about at that time and were so good.
42:39
And educators are so good at differentiating for their students.
42:44
And thinking about
42:46
how do I reach my students where they're at and how do I make,
42:50
how do I tailor this concept or this course material
42:54
to what they are interested in, what they are experiencing in that moment?
43:00
But then the second that it goes to teacher learning, it's
43:03
all of that's out the window and it's like, no, we're going to do things
43:06
in a completely different way than we all know
43:10
best practice of teaching is.
43:13
So I think that that is a huge part is like it's going to sink in better
43:18
if you're going to get more buy-in, if you aren't making the PDP
43:22
this extra disconnected development.
43:26
But it's genuinely saying like, what are you working on right now?
43:30
What's stressing you out right now?
43:32
Let's build solutions for your problems now, which are very different
43:37
in February than they are
43:40
in May or start of school in August, September.
43:44
So I think that that's a really important part of it.
43:49
So you can see
43:50
where you've got this dynamic that's going to shift throughout the year.
43:53
You're going to have sort of pinch points or heavier moments, that sort of thing.
43:57
Now with my university and careers guidance counselor hat on as well as DP
44:01
coordinator, there are specific moments where you have like predicted grades.
44:04
And I'm quite interested in what ways did
44:08
PDP's as personal development plan
44:10
reflections end up feeding into predicted grades as well?
44:14
That's such an interesting, very DP coordinated question.
44:22
You know more than I do when the moment you hear predicted grades,
44:26
you're shopping like a cat hearing a can opener
44:29
suddenly everyone in the room has perfect posture.
44:33
It's always a good trigger of sorts, you know.
44:35
For students and teachers.
44:37
Students and teachers. Exactly.
44:40
And that was so interesting because when we were thinking about PDP
44:43
and we were looking at it, in terms of,
44:47
predicted grade, we sort of looked at it
44:49
from two angles, one at the student lens and the other at teacher’s.
44:53
Of course, from the side of teachers, if you say
44:57
strengthening rubric
44:58
clarity was the PDP focus, that often translated
45:02
into clearer articulation of where student was in their learning journey.
45:06
So while we had these multiple data points from their assessments,
45:10
predicted grades wasn't just about that data.
45:12
They were supported by this insight, which was into the path,
45:17
into consistency of their draft improvement, responsiveness
45:20
to feedback, independent skill development.
45:23
So that way PDP reflections were specific,
45:27
tied to a more comprehensive evidence.
45:30
So that gave us a stronger professional language around predicted grades.
45:35
And from the students end, when we started talking about PG’S,
45:39
we realized that predicted, or PG’s is Predicted Grades,
45:42
we realized that predicted grades often feel like something that
45:46
happens to student, or at least that's what they think that it happens to us.
45:50
You got this grade.
45:52
So we said, let's flip it.
45:54
We said we actually had students step into the role of teachers.
45:59
So we use sample data.
46:01
We give them grade boundaries.
46:03
We give them IB grade descriptors.
46:05
We said, okay,
46:07
now analyze your own performance and give yourself a predicted grade.
46:11
And then everybody was predicted at 42 plus.
46:16
So I mean that did happen.
46:18
I mean we talk about assessment capability.
46:20
And so here we are.
46:21
And we said that okay go ahead and give yourself a predicted grade.
46:26
But we want a clear rationale.
46:29
And before we did that we unpacked how teachers often give predicted grades.
46:34
We talked to them about grade boundaries.
46:36
We talked to them about IB grade descriptors.
46:39
What was fascinating was the depth of reasoning we saw.
46:43
Like they poured their hearts out like there is no tomorrow.
46:47
We had one page of reasons that they have, I must be a seven,
46:51
I must be a six, you know.
46:53
But it wasn't really about the number.
46:56
They were honest.
46:57
Now, referencing paper component pages, skill demonstrations,
47:02
no specific link to descriptors, the consistency
47:06
of criteria performance across paper components.
47:09
So what did happen was it aligned beautifully with our assessment capability
47:15
not just about knowing their grade, but them understanding how it is constructed.
47:20
And then came
47:21
the more powerful part, which John, you highlighted.
47:24
What if the student is saying, I'm a 45, but the teacher is saying,
47:28
well, I think let's get our expectations a little clearer.
47:31
I think what you meant was 35. There’s a big difference.
47:36
So I think what came after that was the most powerful part in my opinion.
47:40
So if that predicted grade, what student put down and what the teacher has given
47:46
based on their professional judgment saw a significant gap.
47:49
We didn't treated like a correction.
47:53
We had very intentional, supportive conversation with the student,
47:58
saying that you've said this, but I want you to really reflect.
48:02
And we sort of asked those prompts and questions that here’s
48:06
what you're thinking.
48:07
Here's your evidence. And,
48:09
Like, what do we need to work together to build you
48:12
from what your expectation is to what your teacher has put down right now?
48:17
So that kind of linkage really was transformational.
48:21
So you know when we had those conversations
48:25
we got to know so much about students understanding where they're at.
48:29
And very importantly it's set expectations.
48:33
It not only set those emotional expectations at those emotional level,
48:38
but also expectations at a level where they now started internalizing
48:43
maybe I may have not thought about it objectively.
48:48
Yes, there were some heated discussions, if I may add,
48:52
but you know,
48:53
they're kids and they're teenagers just wanting
48:57
to get into the universities that they want.
49:00
So it's okay if there were at times those disagreements.
49:04
But at the end of the day, I think we somewhere manage to
49:08
make those expectations clear and help them understand
49:12
what they could probably do to have that goal that they have in mind.
49:17
So it's very supportive and reflective.
49:20
Yeah, I can tell that it would have been that.
49:21
And I appreciate what you mentioned earlier where, you know, it's absolutely
49:25
valid for somebody to want to try to aim for the best they can
49:28
and deeply understand what is going on there.
49:31
And if they don't understand the difference
49:33
between how they're performing realistically and how somebody else is,
49:36
you know, checking into that,
49:37
you know, as teachers, we probably shouldn't just shut it down
49:40
right away as, oh, here comes another kid arguing for a grade, but rather like
49:43
there's a valid intention here that I can take a teachable moment from
49:47
and I can, you know, help them grow a little bit.
49:49
And it sounds like using the framework of the PDP
49:53
in some of those conversations, as you had already outlined
49:57
with like your mentors and, and creating that sort of whole scaffolded approach,
50:01
it sounds like that created a good way to have that conversation take place.
50:05
It really was.
50:05
I think we really felt like we were touching that nerve of assessment
50:10
capability for them, taking a lot more ownership about their own learning.
50:14
So it was really nice to see that. Yeah.
50:17
Rohit, thank you so much for this.
50:19
I think we've got a lot of really good ideas of how you've
50:22
taken something that could be quite abstract, like the PDP,
50:25
into really tangible experiences with the students.
50:29
And I also like that you did involve the students a lot in this.
50:32
It wasn't just the teachers on the side.
50:36
It seems like it's been a great program for you
50:37
that you've learned a lot from throughout the process.
50:40
And yeah,
50:41
I just want to thank you for taking the time
50:43
to share those experiences with everyone.
50:45
Great. Thanks so much, Rohit.
50:46
We really appreciate getting the chance to chat with you.
50:48
Thank you. Thank you so much, John.
50:49
And I've really, really enjoyed this conversation.
50:52
I hope
50:53
it sounded engaging and not just me enthusiastically unpacking ideas.
51:00
Yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure.
51:02
Thank you so much, John and Courtney.
51:04
IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast,
51:06
hosted by John Patton and Courtney Marline and produced by Katilina Gaffney.
51:10
Be sure to subscribe or follow and share with your fellow IB educators.
51:14
If you'd like to submit a topic, request or a question, please do so
51:17
on kognity.com/ibunplugged.
51:20
Let's keep the conversation going
51:22
and support each other in teaching with confidence, creativity, and joy.
51:26
See you next time.