Latest / Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald / My Gay Husband and The New Bachelorette Controversy

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My Gay Husband and The New Bachelorette Controversy · Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Heather MacDonald has got the Juicy Scoop.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: When you're on the road, when you're on the go,
• 0:09
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• 0:24
  Speaker 3: listen up.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Woo, woo.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Heather MacDonald.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: Juicy Scoop.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. All right, I have
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: a great interview for you where I interviewed a woman
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: who has one of the most unbelievable stories about her
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: marriage that won't be believed. It's super juicy. But first,
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: let's get into some hot topics. But not until I
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: tell you once more, because I do not want to
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: hear you cry about it, that you better get your
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: plans together for Vegas, November 14th. That is a Friday
• 1:02
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• 1:06
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  Speaker 2: a bad time because the fans that will be there
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• 1:44
  Speaker 2: all this stuff. Do it. Also, of course, Patreon is
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: this Friday and I've got really deep inside scoop as promised.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: about the juiciest stuff in Hollywood, some dark shit I'm
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: going to share that is juicy, and so much more.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: So that's going to be this Friday. I hope you're
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: part of my Patreon. Go to heathermcdolland.net. Okay, big news.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: The new Bachelorette on ABC is Taylor Frankie Paul, the
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: one who started the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives show
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: because she was part of the mom TikTok that decided
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: one day to get on and say, yeah, the reason
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: my mom talk is kind of dismantled is because we
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: were swinging. We were soft swinging and people caught feelings
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: for each other and it all exploded. And it was
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: quite shocking because all these girls were so cute. They
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: could all dance. They all had long hair and you know,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: little peach cheeks and were cute and tiny and married
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: young and Mormon. Well, the show starts and by the
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: time the show starts airing, she is now divorced from
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: her first husband and who she has two kids from.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: And now she's dating this other guy and she gets
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: pregnant with him. She is no longer with him. And
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: now she is the bachelorette. This is extremely juicy, genius,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: I think, to ignite into the franchise of what is
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: The Bachelor, The Bachelorette, The Golden Bachelor, and The Golden Bachelorette.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Because it also makes sense because people thought, how was she,
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: who's really the star, the most recognizable face of MomTalk,
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: why wasn't she chosen to be on Dancing with the Stars?
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Because The two other girls, Jennifer Affleck and the other girl, Whitney,
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: who did the dance while her son was in NICU.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: And love you. And she'd like do a little ass
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: jump up. And she was, you know, doing this dance.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: And her child was just in the clear little NICU cradle.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: That's what I just did at Juicy Crimes about this,
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: which you'll hear next week, by the way. Let me
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: remind you. Link is in the notes description below. You're
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: going to subscribe to Juicy Crimes. You're going to leave
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: a review, and you're going to also do that on
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: the Juicy Crimes on YouTube, and you're going to tell
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: a friend.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Talking about how quickly the quote-unquote canceled people, what happened?
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: When that girl did that video dancing with her ass
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: in the air while her child was on breathing mechanisms,
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: she thought her life was over. She thought she was
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: going to be canceled. The whole world hated her. Well,
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: then she got on mom's on Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Now her body's snatched, just squirted out her fourth kid
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: and is doing Dancing with the Stars. So, you know,
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: life can work out, girls.
• 4:58
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• 5:27
  Speaker 2: And now Frankie Paul, who we've seen on two seasons
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: of the show, crying with her parents about, you know,
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: that she needs to stick with guy number two because
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: she had baby number three with guy number two and
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: all of this. And why didn't she get Dancing with
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: the Stars? Because ABC, who also airs Dancing with the Stars,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: had this secret going that she was going to be
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: the next Bachelorette. This is very juicy because I don't
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: even know, and you guys would know better, I know
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: we've had contestants, men and women, on the Bachelor franchises,
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: Bachelor and Bachelorette, who were parents. um with one maybe
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: never more than two kids but mostly I think just
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: one but um and that's always like a controversial thing
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: and usually the uh bachelor bachelorette doesn't know that the
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: suitor is a parent until like the third or fourth
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: date where they've hung out with them and they're like
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: oh I love that you're a parent and then maybe
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: we see the kid that maybe we don't and um
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: But this is pretty juicy. Not only is she not
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: part of the Bachelorette franchise where they recycle people, which
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: I have been telling them for years, stop doing this.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Get somebody exciting. If it's a guy, get somebody who's
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: truly good-looking and successful and rich, not a has-been leftover
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: from a Bachelorette season. Get somebody that we're excited about.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: She's beautiful. She can dance. She's got a good body.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: She does drink. whether she does anymore or not, but
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: she was kind of like a drinker, partier, boozer. That's
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: why she fell into the swinging. She was a swinger.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: She knows how to side swing, which means like it
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: just starts off, I guess, with you laying next to
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: each other. And I don't know. I'm kind of joking,
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: but there is a thing about, I guess you just
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: give like a BJ from the side of your mouth.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know. So she was a side swinger. And
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: then also a mother of three that's juggling two baby daddies.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: And she lives in Utah. And she, you know, has
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: some nice hair. So listen, this is going to be good.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: People are going to watch this. This was a very
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: good TV movie move on their part. Also, The Golden
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: Bachelor is happening. That comes out September 24th. And one
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: of my very best friends, that I have known since my, um,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: early twenties. That is the reason why I became a
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: standup because we had a job together and she threw
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: down the, uh, learning annex magazine. And she said, leave
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: this dumb cubicle job at Robinson's may and become a standup.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: She is on the golden bachelor and her name is Maya.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: I can't tell you what's going to happen because I
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: don't know what happens. They are sworn to secrecy and
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: I do not know, but, um, she is a mother
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: of three recently divorced. So she too is a mother
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: of three. It's going to be good. I feel like
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: this franchise is, it had a big dip and I
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: think it's back. And I think this is going to
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: be a very exciting season. Okay. Now we're going to
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  Speaker 2: get into one of the juiciest marriage stories I've heard
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  Speaker 2: and coming off on the Mormon talk of Secret Lives
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: of Mormon Moms. Secret Life and Mormon Wives. This woman
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  Speaker 2: that I interviewed has such an interesting, inspirational story about
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: her life. And she did come from the Mormon church,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: her marriage, what happened in her journey with her husband.
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  Speaker 2: And it's just, it's a good one. You will like it.
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  Speaker 2: It's juicy. So sit back and enjoy. And here we
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: go with my interview. Thank you. I am very excited
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: to talk to my first time guest because she has
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: a very juicy book coming out about her life that
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: I love. I love the subject. So you knew you'd
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: be perfect for Juicy Scoop when you reached out. Jessica Frew,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: the book is called Shove Your Shoulds. And I mean,
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: let's get into what got you into realizing that your
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: life is pretty crazy and And that you can also
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: help people in the process.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: It's always funny because I don't view my life as
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: being crazy. I'm like, oh, this is just my life.
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  Speaker 3: And people are like, girl, what just happened to you? Like,
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  Speaker 3: what have you been through?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, you want me to go into
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  Speaker 3: the story, tell you all the things?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's just kind of start. So, I mean, the
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: line that caught my eye was, I found out My
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: husband told me or whatever I found out, and we're
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: going to find out in the interview how, that he's gay,
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: which is something a lot of women deal with. It's
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: not an unheard story. But then you went and met
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  Speaker 2: the man he had an affair with and had dinner
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  Speaker 2: with to kind of get the scoop.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: But then you also went back to the original gay
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: husband to see if you could date him again.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: Then you got married. So I want to hear all
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: of it. First of all, where did you grow up
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  Speaker 2: and everything?
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So I grew up mostly in Idaho. I was raised
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  Speaker 3: in a very conservative Christian religion. We are Mormon, LDS,
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I will get
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: crap if I do not say the full title. So
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: there you go. But we were, and my husband, my
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: first husband was as well. We were both raised in
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: this Community and very much were.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Your parents and grandparents like were they for generations?
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Mormon.
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: Yep. Yep.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: And so does Idaho have a big Mormon community?
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, it's similar to Utah. Okay, quite as much
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: but very similar. And so like Matt and I, my
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: current husband and I always say like in Boise, where
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: I live. If you go outside of Boise, it's Little Utah.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: Like all of the surrounding areas just feel like Utah.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: There's lots of Mormons, all of the soda drink shops
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: that you see, like all of the things, Secret Life's
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: and Mormon Wives.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't know that.
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: It is totally that.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, I didn't know that the dirty soda means you
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: get like a soda pop and then you put like
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: cream in it.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it has like coconut cream and lime.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Into like a root beer?
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: That's what a dirty, yeah.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: But you can't have soda, I thought. You can't have caffeine.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: OK, so, yeah, there was like at one point where
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  Speaker 3: people I don't even know where it came from. But
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  Speaker 3: there was this thing in the church saying that we
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: couldn't have caffeine. I'm like, I've never heard this. Like,
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: I never heard these rules that we can't have caffeine.
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: Coffee was always a no. And like black tea and
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: green tea. I don't know. I don't understand.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: Where it started?
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, there's like a, we have a word
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  Speaker 3: of wisdom that they live by that's supposedly scripture. And
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: in that there is like no hot drinks. And so
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: I'm like, did they just take that? But all of
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: us drink, all of us drink hot chocolate. Like, so
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: I don't know. And herbal teas are fine. I don't
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: know how the lines all came to be drawn, but
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: it is interesting. Like my, my ex-husband, when I married him,
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: he's like, you can't have caffeine. And I'm like, what?
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: I didn't drink caffeine growing up just because I had
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: heart issues. But I didn't understand. I'm like, this is
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: not in church doctrine. Like, this isn't a thing.
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 12:50
  Speaker 6: So, yes.
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: Dirty sodas.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: So, you have all that and you meet your husband.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: The first husband's name is Matt.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: My first husband is Steve. So, I met Steve in college.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. Which college was that?
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: We were at ISU, which is in Pocatello, Idaho. Super
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: little town. Super little town. And we met there.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: That was not a religious college.
• 13:08
  Speaker 7: No.
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  Speaker 3: Neither of us went to BYU or a religious college
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: at all. But I remember meeting Steve and it was
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: like I knew this guy was going to change my life.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: And he did in many ways that I did not expect.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: But we met and then the next day he called
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: me and we went out the next night and we
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: were together any chance we could be after that. We
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: were just really compatible and had fun together.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: But no premarital sex.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: No premarital sex. We did not have sex. And it's
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: interesting because later we were talking and Steve's like, I
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: didn't even really made out with anybody until you. I
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: kissed a couple of girls, but nobody ever interest me
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: as far as girls went until then, because he's like,
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: I don't know. And he always said the thing that
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: attracted him to me was just that I was not
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: afraid to be myself. He's like, you just showed up
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: as you. And I couldn't put that together with like
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: the church thing. And also you were bold and loud
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: and didn't dress like everybody else. And so I think
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: that's kind of what made our connection work. We met
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: in February. We were married in December, very much typical
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: in the Mormon church to get married very quickly. And
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: we got married in the temple, all of the things.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: So you're sealed and all that?
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: He and I were sealed.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: We did.
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: The whole shebang.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: And it was interesting, like a few days before our wedding.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Which sealed means that when you go, if you believe,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: when you go and after you die, then the two
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: of you will be hanging out for eternity.
• 14:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: And like your kids. So anybody, so any kids that
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: you have within that marriage are also sealed to you.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: I find it so interesting because I've talked about this before.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously there's been a lot of interest in
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Mormonism in reality TV. We have real housewives who are Mormon.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: We have the TikTok girls, Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: And the amount of divorce is sort of surprising to
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: me because growing up Catholic, it was like we were
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: told like, well, Mormon is a way more like stricter
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: religion about stuff like that. But there's so much divorce. Now,
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: what happens if you divorce someone who You were sealed with.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Can you get that removed like the way Catholics get?
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: I forgot the word that you use when you get
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: married in the church, but you can get it not exonerated,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: but like taken away so you can get married in
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: the church again, which doesn't really happen. Most people get
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: married church in one. If they get married again, they
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: don't even try to do it. But for super religious people,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: then you have to prove that he lied to you
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: early on or he was mentally ill or she was
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: or whatever to get annulment, Catholic annulment.
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: That's what it is.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: So how does it work with the sealing?
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: The sealing is interesting, and there's a lot of controversy
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: around this, quite honestly. So in a ceiling, if you
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: get it, you can get it canceled is what it is.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: And you have to get like basically permission or like
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: a letter from your ex. And you have to go
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: through this process of canceling that. Now, women are still
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: technically sealed to their exes until they are married and
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: sealed to somebody else. And men can be sealed to
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: more than one person, but women cannot. So maybe it's
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: that like my husband, Matt, is still technically sealed to
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: his ex-wife and me because he and I did the
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: temple thing too.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: So husband number two is Mormon too? Yes.
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: So let's go back to husband number one.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: So you guys get married, sealed, the whole shebang.
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: You're how old?
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: I was like 19, 20. I was 20. Did you
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: guys have kids?
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: We ended up having a daughter about five years in
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: after like some fertility stuff. And I knew he was
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: gay at that point. So he came out.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: So let's hear about that. So what year and how
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: far in to marriage did you did you suspect first
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: or did he tell you before you even suspected?
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: He could never. So I knew before he could even
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: say the words I'm gay. So I found back in
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: the day, there were all these pop-ups that would come
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: up on your computer. So I opened up our laptop
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: one day and he's at work.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: What year is this around?
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: This would be like 2004.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: So all are, yeah, right around there. 2005. 2005. all
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: of these pop-ups start coming up on the computer and
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: it's all porn, which I wasn't shocked by. I knew
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: he looked at porn, but it was all men. And
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: I was like, I didn't know this. And I knew like, sure,
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: there's some straight guys that look at gay porn, but
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: there was something in me that I was like, this,
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: my husband is gay. And when he came home that night,
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: he knew I wasn't okay. We talked about it.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: How did you say it?
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: I said, are you gay? Like, Steve, are you gay?
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: And and he's like, no, I just felt it was
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: better to not disrespect women. And so I convinced like
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: I and so I only looked at men like I
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: didn't want to disrespect women. This is like how deep
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: in denial he was.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: That's crazy.
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: He was so deep in denial. And he told me
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: years later, he's like, that night was the first night
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: I even let myself think to myself, I'm gay. It
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: hadn't been until that point that he could even let
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: those words enter his mind. Fast forward two years later,
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: he's in counseling. And the counselor's like, hey, yes, you're
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: dealing with all these other issues, but the main issue is,
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: is that you're gay. And until you accept that.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Now, was this counselor a Mormon counselor or just a
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: person that you guys found through like marriage and family counseling?
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: I don't think it was a Mormon counselor at this point.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: I think we had tried a couple and we were like, uh-uh.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: And was he going to therapy alone or always together?
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: On his own. This was totally on his own. Okay.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: And the counselor's like, you're gay. And until you accept
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: and love that about yourself, you're going to struggle with
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: all these other things. Like they're going to be an issue.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: And so at that point, Steve came to me He
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: told me he's gay.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: How did he tell you?
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: He didn't actually tell me.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Now, at this point, do you have your daughter?
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: No.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: No.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: So this is like two years in, two and a
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: half years in. We're like in the middle of moving.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: And how often are you boning and stuff?
• 19:18
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, we had a really healthy sex life. Steve,
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: when we talked about this at some point on our podcast,
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: he was like, wow, I forgot we had that much sex.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: How often were you having it?
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, like three, four times a week at least.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow. Yeah.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: It was very healthy. And it was interesting because I
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: talked to my friends who were in a heteronormative relationship
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: and they're like, we're not having that much sex. And
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: they didn't know Steve was gay. But I was just like,
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: that's just what we do.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: It's our thing.
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: And I think it's because we are emotionally connected. Like,
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: I was the only one that knew he was gay.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: I was the only person that knew this truth about him.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: And it created really deep connection between us.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Anyway. But he was still coming around, like, making you
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: feel beautiful while you had sex. And when you were
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: having sex with him, would you think, I wonder if
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: he's thinking about gay porn right now? Or did you
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: never let your mind go there?
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: I mean, during sex, I never let my mind go there. Like,
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: I just.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Enjoyed yourself.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: This is about us. This is about us right now.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, there were moments of thinking that outside of
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: the bedroom where I'd question... All of those things. And
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: we got to a point where we would talk about
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: who he thought was attractive at the grocery store and
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: nudge each other. With guys. Yes, with the guys at
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: the grocery store. Because I really wanted him to feel
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: safe being who he is and accepting himself.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: And what were your careers at this time?
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: So at that point, when I found out he was gay,
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: Steve did hotel management and we were actually in the
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: process of moving to Belize. And so he was down there,
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: and I had just quit my job.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Why were you moving to Belize?
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: He managed a hotel down there. We went on vacation.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: He applied for a job, got one, and we moved
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: down there.
• 21:03
  Speaker 6: How fun.
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Was it great?
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: It was really fun. And that's where our daughter was born.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: She ended up being born in Belize. What's the gay
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: life there?
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's not much.
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: There's not much. Which was good for our marriage at
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: the time. You know? Okay, yeah, yeah.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: It was like, I've got a hotel to work at
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: in West Hollywood, everyone. Okay, yeah.
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: I remember him coming on trips to California, like work
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: trips for trainings and things.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: And coming back real happy.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: And coming back. And no, he would feel so much
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: shame and guilt because he would go to like the
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: gay parts of town.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: And he'd tell you all this.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: He would tell me this. And he'd never... I mean,
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: he did things that were outside of the boundaries of
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: what I felt was appropriate for our marriage. Like going
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: to like clubs and going to porn shops where they
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: have like the little rooms and people knock on them
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: to see if you want help and things like that.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: He's like, I never let anybody in, but he would
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: go do these things.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: But he would tell you like, hey, by the way,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: after work. I'm going to the peep show.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: He wouldn't tell me before. This was always after the fact.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: So it would be like, oh, how was work? It
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: was great. Actually, last night, I just, like, got an itch.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: And I went to a gay club. He would tell you, like,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: how would he tell you?
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: He would tell me. I mean, it was usually after
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: he got home. And it would be, like, a check-in.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: Because I knew these things were, like.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: Quote unquote temptations for him or things like that.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: That's how we talked about that. Where's your family? You're
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: not sharing anything with your family, are you?
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: No.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: Our family doesn't know. Steve's mom, he told his mom
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: like a year before we got divorced.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: She was the only person in the family that knew.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: And what was her reaction?
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: She was a mess, like total mess. It's been a
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: rocky road with family and navigating all of that. And
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: Some of that is more like Steve's story to share
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: on that end of things. But it was it was
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: a lot for our families. Itching, burning, soreness.
• 22:58
  Speaker 7: When you know it's thrush, you want it gone. Treat
• 23:01
  Speaker 7: the cause, not just the symptoms, with Caniston Combi. Ireland's
• 23:04
  Speaker 7: number one thrush treatment brand. Caniston Combi Pestry and Cream
• 23:08
  Speaker 7: contain cotrimazole.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: Always read the label.
• 23:10
  Speaker 7: I'm Darman, and this is What Happens Next.
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: Each week on the show, I sit down with extraordinary
• 23:20
  Speaker 5: people who have faced tremendous setbacks. and yet somehow have
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: found a way to turn them into their greatest strengths.
• 23:28
  Speaker 7: Life is one long lesson of chaos.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: I'm heading to the Emmys and I have police complaints
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: filed against me.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: When your free will was about to be taken from you,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: what would you.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: Do if it was given back?
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: Where did that need come from where you thought that
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: you had to succeed in order to feel loved?
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: He said, I have a work debt.
• 23:46
  Speaker 5: I need a home debt.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: What happens next?
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: When I came in, he started crying.
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: Everybody in life encounters hardships. What defines them is not
• 23:54
  Speaker 5: those hard moments that they go through. It's about what
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: happens next.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: I decided to risk it all. I realized how valuable
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: every day was. You're worth the work.
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: Listen, Dar, I'm not going to pull punches.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: You can use your voice even if it's shaped.
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: The stories are different, but the impact is the same.
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: Only one question matters. What happens next?
• 24:21
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: But, yeah, so, I mean, these were conversations we had.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: We were very open with each other. And it took
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: Steve often time to be able to own some of
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: the things that were going on or be able to
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: tell me. But I always knew something was going on. Like,
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: I knew Steve well enough to know something had shifted,
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: something wasn't okay. And I knew the instant he had
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: an affair. Like, I knew that second.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: So all those other times besides peeking at gay porn
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: in the privacy of his own computer at home.
• 24:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: When he'd go to actual places where gay men were,
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: he would just say, I just looked. Did he ever
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: say I exchanged numbers? Did he ever say I did
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: a handy J, but nothing more?
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: None of that. None of that.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Do you believe it?
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: I do, actually. Okay. Just because he's been so honest
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: with me. He had no reason not to tell me.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: And you were never afraid that he would cross the
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: line and then possibly not be open with you and
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: bring you home some type of disease? I.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: I was worried he would cross the line that there
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: would be an affair. Like I, I wasn't dumb. I
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: knew that was a real possibility for our relationship and,
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: and stayed in the relationship knowing that, like I knew
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: that I was choosing into something that was very highly
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: likely to end in divorce and or an affair.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: And so, and did you feel like you were kind
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: of being like the ultimate ostrich with your head in
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: the sand procrastinator? Because like, You did love his companionship
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: and everything, so you were just trying to tell yourself
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: that this could continue even though your soul was saying
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: this can't go on forever like this and it's not
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: fair to me?
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: You know, I stayed until it really didn't feel right.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: There was a point, I mean, after he had the
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: affair and stuff and we still tried to make things
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: work after that, there was a point where I was like, Steve,
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: you're ready to just go embrace this. Like go be
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: who you were created to be. And I'm good. Penny
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: and I, Penny's our daughter. We'll be fine. Like we'll
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: figure all of this out. And so at that point, well,
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: let's go back.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: Cause I'm jumping ahead. Let's go back to the infamous
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: day of where he hasn't said I'm gay, but he says,
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: I like gay stuff and looking at men and attracted
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: to men, but we're still having sex. To the point
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: where he comes to you with this bombshell and where
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: and when and what did he say?
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: Okay. So when I found out he was gay, he
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: didn't actually come to me. What happened was he had
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: moved to Belize and he had bought a bunch of
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: stuff like at.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: Our church's bookstore. But weren't you living in Belize with him?
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: I was like getting our house.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Oh, you were to join him.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: Rented and like the car sold and like that type
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: of stuff. But you were planning on moving there.
• 27:10
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: At this point, he's like, hey, I have some stuff
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: I need returned to the bookstore. Will you take it
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: back for me? And I'm like, sure. Like, I'll do
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: that after you leave. So I'm in line at the bookstore.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: And it's our church bookstore. And I'm looking at the receipt.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: And it's like, homo, homo. Because it just has, like,
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: the first part of all of these books that he bought.
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh, my gosh. He's come to terms
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: with the fact he's gay. But wait.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: The Mormon bookstore has homosexual books? They have.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: Things for individuals and they'll say like people who struggle
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: with same gender attraction.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: So it's a book to kind of try to convert
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: you back to being hetero.
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: To help you stay in a hetero normative relationship, to
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: give you hope, to help you stay like in line,
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: like keep the path type thing. Which I didn't know
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: they had until that moment either. I was like, what
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: the heck?
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: And he bought them, but he was returning them after?
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: He was returning some other stuff, and he forgot that
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: was on the receipt.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: Oh, I see. Okay, go, go.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: And his counselor was like, they probably have some stuff
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: at the bookstore. Go pick it up. So he did
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: to take with him to Belize. And so I was
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: returning this stuff, and I was like, oh, my gosh.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: So I went and bought a couple books and started
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: reading stuff. And I called him, and I'm like, hey,
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: just so you know, I went and got this. I
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: saw this on the receipt. And I'm like, I'm assuming
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: you've come to terms with the fact you're gay. And
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: he's like, yes, I am gay. I am like whatever.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: And my current husband, Matt, is always like, why did
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: you not leave right then? Like, why did you not leave?
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: Like that was you were already separated. He's in Belize.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: You don't have a like your.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Assets are separated. How old are you at this point?
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: I was 23, 24. Yeah.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: But and during those times of having regular sex. So
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: you weren't successful in getting pregnant.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: Or you were? We were actively trying to have a kid.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: We were actually in, like, artificial insemination, and I was on.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: So you went to that because you couldn't get pregnant?
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Was it your... Did you ever know whose issue it
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: was and why you guys couldn't conceive?
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: I've never been able to get pregnant again.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: I've randomly gotten pregnant once, and so I'm assuming there's
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: something off with me, but nothing that they've ever pinpointed.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: And so... I had my one, but I got pregnant
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: with her when we moved to Belize. So at that point.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: But through IVF?
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: No, I ended up just naturally getting pregnant.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: With Steve?
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay. Okay, continue.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: So he says that to you, but you're like, but
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: I'm still going to be your wife?
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, we talked, like, what does this look like?
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: What do we want? And we both were still in it.
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: So we were like, okay, let's keep going forward until
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: this doesn't work, basically. Like, that's kind of how it was.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: And at that point, you didn't say, but if you're gay,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: are you going to want to actually... have intercourse with
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: a man.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: I mean, we had all those conversations and he was
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: just like, no, that's not something I want. That's not
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: how I ever envisioned my life, which he hadn't because
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: he'd only been shown one way of living.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, only because you're in the church. Juicy scoop.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: I'm going to ask you something.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: Ask me, ask me the thing.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, were you like, do you want to be
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: a top or do you want to be a bottom?
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: What do you see yourself as and does that freak
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: you out? And did he ever ask you to peg him?
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: No. And I actually had offered to do things and
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: he's like, nope, I can't do it. I can't mesh
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: those two worlds.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: But did you ever ask him about what he desired
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: in a man-on-man relationship and what role he would play?
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: But I think he couldn't even picture that or like
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: grasp that in himself until he had the affair. And
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: when he had the affair, I remember him telling me,
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: he's like, Jess, I'm crushed because I know I've hurt you.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: So how does he tell you, let's go to the
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: affair park?
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: So you go to Belize. We lived there. You're living there.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: We had a baby.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: But how often are you talking about his gay side
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: at that point?
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, it comes up like probably a few times
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: a month or so. I mean, it's not like a
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: daily conversation.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, did you go see Black, what is it called?
• 31:18
  Speaker 5: Mountain?
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: What was it called? Oh, he was watching that. Wait,
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: what was it called? Brokeback Mountain. Brokeback Mountain.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Did you go, when that movie came out, did you
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: guys go see it?
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: He had already seen it. Like that came out.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: You had already seen it 10 times. Yeah, yeah.
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: I'm sure. I do remember that was one he watched
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: a bunch.
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: You're like, it's like the child that's always watching Frozen.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: You're like, oh, yeah, my gay, morbid husband is watching.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Why don't we just buy the DVD at this point? Sorry,
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: you don't have to keep. Checking it out.
• 31:47
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: So, um, okay. So what happens?
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we, we had moved back from Belize. We're in
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: the States. We had our daughter. She was almost two
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: at this point. And Penny and I had gone home
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: to Idaho for a family reunion. And we came back
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: and it was Labor Day weekend actually, which is coming
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: right up. And, uh, We get to the airport and
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: Steve picks us up. We come out and Penny runs
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: over to Steve and throws her arms around him. And
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: I'm just standing there watching like this cute little moment.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: And also I felt sick. Like I could just tell
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: something was totally different.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: It's the full instinct.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: Everything in me.
• 32:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, Steve didn't look different. Like obviously there was
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: no visual signs.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: But it was just like your women's intuition.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: And so we go have a little lovely evening as
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: a family. We put Penny to bed. And I'm like, Steve,
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: is everything fine? And this was the other indicator. He
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: didn't want to have sex, which always when I came
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: home from a trip or he came home from a trip,
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: it's just, you know, what we did. And it wasn't
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: a requirement. It was just who we were. And I
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: was like, what is happening? Like, this is so weird.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: And he's like, nothing happened.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: We're good.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: I'm fine. Everything's fine. I was like, okay. And so
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: fast forward just a week later, and I was still, like,
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: not okay. I was up at night crying. I was
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: having to watch Friends to fall asleep at, like, 2
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: in the morning to, like, get my brain to calm down.
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: Friends and I were real tight at that point. It's
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: a good distraction.
• 33:25
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: And I was like, I know where I can get
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: the answers, and Steve left his phone home. And so
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: I was like, I'm just going to look, and I'll
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: look at his email. I know which email to check.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: I know which friend he would message. And I go
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: on to check. I open the email. I start reading.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I can't do this. This isn't who we are. Like,
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: we've never had this type of relationship.
• 33:50
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: And so I shut it and put it away. But
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: that night I told Steve, I'm like, hey, I'm really sorry.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: I want you to know I got on your phone.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: I didn't read anything, but I started to. I don't
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: know what was in that email, but this is the
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: one I opened and whatever. And he flips on the
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: lights at that point. And he's like, Jessica, you have
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: no reason to be sorry. I had an affair with
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: a man. I was with him the whole weekend when
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: you were gone. I'll tell you anything you want to know.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: And just had this really deep conversation. I didn't want
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: to know anything. I'm like, I don't want to know details.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: I don't want to hear all of the things. I
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: just need to know like general things when this started,
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: what you're feeling now, where we go from here. I
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: don't want to hear details, which I'm really glad I
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: had that in me because it's not something I want
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: to hold on to.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it wouldn't be me, but.
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah. You would want all those juicy details.
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: And I mean, it was like his first weekend having
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: sex with a man and drinking and like all of
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: these things. And so it totally like flipped so much.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, drinking because you guys were not drinkers.
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: So he was able to, oh, he was just doing
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: all the fun things.
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: He went all in.
• 35:03
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Doing poppers too or no, you don't know?
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: I don't think so.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: But at that point, that's when he said to me,
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: he's like, Jessica, I've, this has never felt so right.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: Like I've never felt something so right in my life
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: except for the fact that I know it's going to
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: hurt you so badly. He's like, that part feels crushing.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: And it's like these two dual things that he's juggling
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: at that point. And we tried to work it out
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: for a while. He's like, I don't want to leave.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: this guy had the affair with is like, stay with her.
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: I didn't know you were married, all of these things.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: And then ultimately I was like, Steve, like we need
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: to be done. Like this needs to end.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: So how far, how far between that infamous night and
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: you actually being like, we're done.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: It was like six to eight weeks. So it wasn't
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: terribly long.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: We were, but now you're establishing your life. Oh no.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Cause you're already living in Belize for a while. Okay.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: Sorry.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: So, um, Okay, so now get to who this guy is.
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: So when I decided to leave, we had just moved
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: to Oklahoma. And I was like, Steve, I know nobody here.
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: I can't stay here and navigate this.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: And you went there for his work.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: Yes, for his work. And he's like, okay, that's fine.
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: And we owned a house in Boise. He's like, go
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: back to our house and we'll figure out all the
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: things with Penny and all of that. And I was like, okay.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: And I told him, I said, okay, but before I leave,
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: I want to meet this guy. Because it sounds like
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: you guys are going to stay together.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: So he kept seeing him during those six weeks?
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: He was not seeing him, and he cut contact at first.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: But then I knew there were emails or texts going
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: back and forth.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Because you were looking at the phone?
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: No, just because I kept checking in, and Steve was
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: honest with me about it.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Wow, okay.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: And so I was like, listen, your words are telling
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: me you want to be with me. Your actions are
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: speaking otherwise. Let's just be done. We can figure out
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: something new. So I did tell him before I leave,
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: I want to go to dinner with this guy. I
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: want to meet him.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Now, during this time, are you sharing this with anybody, girlfriends, friends, family, nothing?
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: We had, so we had just moved from Colorado to Oklahoma.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: And so a couple of my friends in Colorado knew.
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: And I actually went and stayed with them for like
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: a week or two.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: And were any of them like, fuck him, or a
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: little bit more negative than your completely open, accepting heart?
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: They really weren't. Those friends weren't. I mean, I'm sure
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: there were people who said that, but also people knew
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: I wasn't open to receiving that. I was like, you
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: can say that and do that, but I will not
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: be on board. Like, this is... My daughter's dad, I'm
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: not going to throw him under the bus. I'm not
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: going to treat him that way. He's a good guy.
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: There were big feelings, though. I'm like, there was still
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: a lot to process through. I still had to go
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: through the feelings of anger and resentment and bitterness. And
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: not necessarily at him, just at the situation. But it
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: was all there. Everything that comes with infidelity and all
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: of that was still there. But yeah, we.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: So we went to dinner, like, this guy he had
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: the affair with, and Steve and I, and Penny, because
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: she's two. And so.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: And what was... Was he your age? Was he good-looking? Like,
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: what was he like, and what was his story?
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, he was the most gentle, kind man. He
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: was close to our age at the time. We were, like, 27,
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: 28 at this point. And it was interesting because... Steve
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: was just like a ghost. He was pure white sitting
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: at that table. And this guy and I are just
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: having a conversation. And Steve, I think, was just having
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: an out of body experience, like what is happening in
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: my life right now? And so the guy at the
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: end asked if he could drive me home. He's like,
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: can I drive you back to your guys's house? And
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, that's fine. And he just sobbed.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Just to you, so the husband wasn't there?
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: No, just the two of us.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: He sobbed and said what?
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: He said, he's like, I wish, well, first he said,
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: I'm so sorry. It was never my intention to break
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: up a marriage. And I'm like, listen, if it wasn't you,
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: it would have been somebody else. This isn't about you.
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: I don't view this as you broke up my marriage.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: This was what Steve decided to do, and that's fine.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: I'm not dumb. I was married to a gay man.
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: I knew this was a possibility. And he was like,
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: I just hold him to stay with you. I've always
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: wanted a wife and kids, and if I could have
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: found somebody that was accepting as you, I would have
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: done that. But I was like, listen, at this point,
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: Steve's not okay emotionally. I'm just really glad he has
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: somebody like you around to watch out for him because
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to be here. So please just be
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: aware of him as much as you can. And that's
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: kind of how we left things. And then I drove
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: Penny and I home across the country the next day,
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: cried a lot and sang a lot.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: And OK, so then where did you guys go with
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: like divorce proceedings and stuff?
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: So I went to my friend's dad and had him
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: write up our divorce. Steve signed whatever I put in
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: front of him. It was super fast and easy. And
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: we got that done.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: And then what did custody look like? Because now you're
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: in different states.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: So we just put it as like I had 100%
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: custody just because we were in different states. And we're like,
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: we're going to figure this out. Like we get along.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: He came home for Christmas. So I left at the
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: end of October. And he came home for Christmas. He's like,
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: I am scared to death to go to Christmas with
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: my family.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Because now they know.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: They know. My parents know. Everybody knows. I remember calling
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: my parents and telling them, and it was like silence
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: on the other end of the phone. Like, what?
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: And were they at all negative towards him? How could
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: he do this to you? Why did he ever marry
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: you in the first place? Was there any... That kind
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: of reaction.
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, initial reaction, sure. Like there was some of that.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: And I remember my mom, we went shopping after I
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: got back there to pick up like some house things
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: that I needed. And I needed a strainer, like a colander.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: And we're in Walmart buying whatever we can get. And
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: she got so pissed in that aisle, like just pissed.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: I'm like this. The strainer is what brought it out, mom.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: And she's like, yes, just so mad. And I'm like,
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: let it out. Like you get to be mad like
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: this sucks.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: But there were moments of that. But they also saw
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: they followed my lead on my side of my family,
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: my family very much. My brother got really pissed for
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: a while, one of my brothers. And then I told him,
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: I'm like, listen, you can be pissed as long as
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: you want. And also Steve's going to be at her
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: birthdays and he's going to be at holidays and he's
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: going to be at all of these things because that's
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: what we're hoping for, for Penny. And like, so if
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: you want to be there, you got to figure this out.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: You can be pissed, embrace it, but then figure it out.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: And so he came around really quickly too. But Steve
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: coming home for Christmas, he's like, I can't do this
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: on my own. So I went and spent Christmas with
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: Steve's family. And we got family pictures taken, Steve and
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: I and Penny, because we didn't have any family pictures.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: And I wanted her to see, like, us together and
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: how much we loved each other and all of that.
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: So we have the cutest family pictures. We were both
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: really skinny because we were on the divorce diet. So
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: they're rocking.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: And so now let's go to where you wanted to
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: give it one more chance with Steve. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: How did that come about? So.
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: I started dating very quickly. I think I processed this
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: as being my reality for quite a while. And so
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: I started dating pretty quickly and I was dating this
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: guy and I messaged Steve one night and I'm like, hey,
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: I'm falling in love with somebody else. And I know
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: you had messaged a couple of times saying that you
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: might move back here, that you might move up to Boise.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: And I don't know if that's for me or if
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: that's for just so you can be close to Penny
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: and either one's great. But if it's for me, you
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: need to let me know now. And he calls me
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: the next morning and he's like, Jessica, I can't leave you.
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: I can't do this. Like, I'm still so confused.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Now, are you legally divorced?
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: We are legally divorced at this point.
• 43:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: And how old is your daughter now?
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: She's still two. Like, this is all within a year.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: She turned two right after I moved home to Boise.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: OK, got it.
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: And he he's like, I can't do this. I can't
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: I can't leave the church yet. Like, I can't do
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: any of this. And I'm like, well. Then move home
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: and let's figure that out. He's like, I've been trying
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: to figure out the job thing. I said, screw the job. Like,
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: take the action. And so he quit his job the
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: next day. And three hours later, they called him back
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: and they're like, we just had a job opening come
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: open in Boise. Do you want it? And he's like, yeah.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: So he's taking all the signs from the universe. God
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: is saying this was just a little blip in your life.
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: Yep.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: And you're meant to be the traditional straight dad and husband.
• 44:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: And stay in the church.
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: And it's interesting because at some point along the line, well,
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: Penny was six months old. I had this deep feeling
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: that this was going to be a story I was
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: going to share. But at that point, Steve and I
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: are married and I thought it was going to be
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: how we made this relationship work in the church. And,
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: you know, you can have a mixed orientation marriage.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: You kind of have like a vision of like, I
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: know this is, this bad thing's happening to me, but
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: I know it's going to be something bigger later in
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: the future. That's really, yeah, I'm kind of like that too.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: So it's really interesting when you look back and you're like, no,
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: I knew there was something like in the future. There
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: was more for this.
• 44:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: And it gave it deeper purpose.
• 44:47
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: But like now I'm so glad that's not the message
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: I'm sharing. Like I give support to so many women
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: who have had a partner come out and through our podcast,
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: we've helped so many people. And so I'm grateful for that. Okay.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: So get back. I'm really glad.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: He comes back. He gets the job in Boise.
• 45:06
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: And like, yeah, he gets the job in Boise and
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: we start dating again. We're like, let's commit to like
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: six months. Let's see how this goes. And it was
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: a complete shit show. Like there is no other way
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: to describe how that went.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: How was it a shit show?
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: I mean, he's like drinking behind my back, which I
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: didn't care that he's drinking. I'm like, just be honest
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: with me about it. And he's got guys behind my back.
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: And we aren't sleeping together because I'm like, I am
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: not sleeping with you. I don't know where you've been
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: at this point and what's going on.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: Did you say you've got to be fully tested before
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: we get intimate?
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: I was like, I won't sleep with you again until
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: we're married.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: Partially just because of my own boundaries with, I don't
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: know what this is going to be. I don't know
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: where you've been. Like, I'm not doing this until we're
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: really committed. We know what it's like to be together.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: So this isn't a question on that end. But yeah,
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: it was a mess. And we were both so emotional
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: and all over the board. And it was interesting. He
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: was going to church. He came to the same church
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: congregation as me. And my current husband had just moved
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: into that ward too, or like the church congregation. And
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: he and Matt became friends. So Steve and Matt started
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: mountain biking together and they would always leave from my
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: apartment complex because it was near the trailheads. And so
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: Steve and I are a mess. And one night they're
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: going mountain biking, Matt and Steve and some friends are
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: going mountain biking together. And I go up there and
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: I hadn't met Matt yet. I like had no clue
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: he was, went to church with us or anything. I
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: took Penny to see Steve. And Steve's like, hey, this
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: is Matt. He goes to church with us. And I
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: saw Matt and I was like, I'm going to marry
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: that guy. I was like, that's my future husband. Steve
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: and I ended it a week later.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: You didn't think at one moment, maybe they're fucking?
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: No. Did not cross my mind.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: How long are these mountain bike rides?
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: Steve did always tell, well, he tells Matt and I
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: both this. He's like, I just would ride behind him
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: and be like, that man has nice calves, which is
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: very true. He also told me once when he was
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: really wasted that Matt has really nice pecs. And he
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: was like, no, I didn't. I'm like, you did tell
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: me that, Steve. And he's like, no way. It's like
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: you were also trying to kiss me.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: So you guys never in your attempt to try to
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: get back together, did you live in the same home?
• 47:33
  Speaker 6: No.
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: He had gotten an apartment. I was living in our home.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: And you never were intimate again?
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: This is what the main deal breaker was for me.
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: He really wasn't attracted to me after he had the
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: affair with the man. He was up until that point.
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: And then it kind of cut that. And I felt
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: guilty for a while, feeling like, why do I need
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: him to want me? Why is this such a big deal?
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: I'm like, that's what a marriage is. This is a
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: big deal. thing that makes it different from any other
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: relationship of course I want to be wanted that's so
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: natural in us I want to be desired I want
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: somebody that wants all the girly parts and all the
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: things and uh so so yeah it that's what ultimately
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: I was like I can't I can't do this you
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: don't need to do this like we don't need to
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: do this we're gonna be fine we're gonna be friends
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: let's go our ways so we did once it was
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: over that time it was like.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: Done And then, so then you start dating.
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: I called Matt. I reached out to him. I think
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: it was on Facebook Messenger the next week. I said, hey, Matt,
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: you want to go to my friend's party with me?
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: He's like, wait a second. I'm so confused. Because he
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: didn't know enough.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And you're still going to Mormon church every Sunday?
• 48:49
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: Do you still go to church now?
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: Up until the beginning of this year. It's been like.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: up really why why now have you.
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: Slow burn of releasing a lot of that and and
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: honestly not something i've talked about a lot but it
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: was it's just been like there's there were things that
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: didn't feel right for me then even when steve and
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: i were married in the church that i really struggled
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: with and especially that was like when prop 8 was
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: like a huge thing. Gay marriage, you mean? Yeah, gay marriage.
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: Steve and I always joked that we supported gay marriage
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: because I was married to a gay man, all this stuff.
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: Which I did support gay marriage, even as an active
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: member of the church. I'm like, I very much support this.
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: And I don't understand. I knew people were created this way.
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: So I'm like, this is part of, if I believe
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: in God, this is part of God's plan. Like, people
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: came this way. I've watched it in my husband.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: And so there was no question. Anyway, there was a
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: slow unraveling for me of what I believe and all
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: of those things. I have nothing against the church. I'm not, like,
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: angry or bitter. But it doesn't resonate for what I
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: believe in what love looks like or what God's love
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: looks like or any of that.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: So.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Now, I've never been to a Mormon service, so I
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: can only compare it to what I've been to in Catholic,
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: which is like a whole— Mass is like a routine
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: of things. And I've been to Christian stuff where there's
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: a cute preacher and maybe some tats or something. And
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, I do see that. This might be
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: a little more entertaining. But what is it? What is
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: a Mormon service? a weekly ceremony like what?
• 50:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: So one of the things that I have liked about
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: the church and now I kind of see is like,
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: I don't know if this is a good thing or bad,
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: but there's the same things taught all over the world
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: every Sunday. So we have like the same messaging, at
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: least there's two hours of church. At least the second
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: hour is very much like if you are having this
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: lesson in Boise, Idaho, you're also having it in Europe somewhere.
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: Like it's the same lesson. It's the same type of program.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: And which made it like when you did travel, like
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: when we moved to Belize, there's a community there that
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: you instantly feel connected to and that feels familiar, which
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: always felt good.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: But I mean, that's like Catholic too.
• 51:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Catholicism is universal. Yeah. So it's like, there's like a calendar. Okay.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: So the scripture, like you're reading the same scriptures leading
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: up to Christmas.
• 51:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: And the same is leading through leading up to Easter.
• 51:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: And so, yes, if you're going to mass in this place, um,
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: I believe all the scriptures are the same. The eulogy
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: is like the speech. Sorry, usually that's very funeral. I forgot.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: After they read the gospel, which is in the Second
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: Testament Bible of Jesus, and then it's up to the
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: priest to say, I met this woman at Target. He
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: could say whatever he wants and, and somehow relate it.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: That's so, you know, and some priests are way more
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: entertaining than others. You know, some are podcast worthy and
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: some are not, you know what I mean? Like, so
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: you're like, Oh, okay. So then those might become more popular.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: And then, and then sometimes you're stuck with a real dud.
• 52:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: And you're like, I don't even want to go to
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: church anymore, but I have so much guilt about not
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: going to church, but I'm not really getting anything out
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 52:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: And I think that's what catholics like struggle with and
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: the same type of thing and that the universal like
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: laws of what is okay and what is not which
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: is changing in the church as well especially with gay
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: acceptance with um the last uh pope and the previous
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: and the new one which is good it's like the
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: same thing and then we used to call it but
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: growing up my dad would be like oh she's a
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: cafeteria catholic you can take what you want like You know,
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: you will be on birth control, even though they're against
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: birth control. You are accepting of gay couples. You, you know,
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: that type of thing. But if you're truly the Catholic,
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: you find the church on vacation.
• 53:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: And we used to, we used to be that family
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: that had to find the church on vacation and go
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: do it. And then.
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: That's so funny.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: You know, and then even as my parents got older,
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: they like started to blow it off.
• 53:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: And then it's like, oh. You know, and then you finally, like, realize, well,
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: I'm an adult. What do I want to do today? Yes.
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: And I believe that from a good person. Yeah. There
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: isn't some checks and balances in heaven where they're like,
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: can you pull up Heather and see if she showed
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: up at the 11 a.m. mass or not? Like, whatever
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: it is. Yeah. But other people feel like, no, it's
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: my routine, like, going to the gym.
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: And if without it, I have a bad week and
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: I need that spirituality and that community and all that.
• 54:02
  Speaker 6: So.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: I didn't really know that. So I'm like, I never
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: really understood that there's a similarity in how it sounds,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: how it was sort of established in that it is
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: like a similar thing in every place.
• 54:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: And one of the different things is that I know
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: is a little different is like, so we have our
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: first hour that's everybody together and they pick speakers from
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: like the congregation.
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: So there'll be like two or three speakers each Sunday
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: that are from the congregation. Okay. And then like the
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: next hours are just teacher led.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: Okay. The second hour is.
• 54:37
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And so, so then did you ever feel like
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: that kind of a thing? Like you, I, like, you know,
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: you believe in God or like, what is your belief
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: system that then said, maybe this, this, you know, established
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: thing is not working for me the way it used to,
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: but I'm grateful that I got a relationship from God
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: by being in it for 35 years or whatever it was.
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: I definitely think that's how I feel about it is
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: it gave me a base to believe in something greater
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: than myself and to believe that there is some sort
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: of plan for my life that brings me comfort as
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: a person. And not that I'm saying like the plans
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: laid out, I can't mess it up. Like I don't
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: have my own agency, but that I could be used
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: for something good or there is like purpose to my life.
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: Like I was saying, I knew I would share this
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: story on some level of what we've been through and
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: experience to help other people. And knowing that like brings
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: me a lot of comfort. But ultimately for me, I
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: didn't feel like, it didn't feel like love anymore. If
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: I believe the things I believe about God, about the universe,
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: whatever is out there, then they don't, the way we're
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: taught in church doesn't feel like love to me. Like
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: you're saying all of the shame and the guilt and
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: those things and not accepting everybody fully Like, they're not
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: truly welcome in our church. Like, Steve, as Penny's dad,
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: would never have the same privileges or experiences as me
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: within the church if he came back. And I... That
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: just doesn't sit right.
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: That's really hard. And there's other things besides that. Also,
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: you know, patriarchy in how women are treated and all
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: of those things. And I don't think it's done... I mean,
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: I don't... I say I don't think it's done intentionally.
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: I think there are people that do it intentionally. I
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: think the... the mass as a whole maybe it's not
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: intentional but there's just so much to unpack there I've
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: had I've had to unpack that it's okay for me
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: to have a voice and to want to be seen
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: and to you know do things like this come on
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: podcasts yeah to share our story to be a speaker
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: and presenter and that that's okay and valued as a
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: woman and I've always just only seen that as that's
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: men's That's their job. They're the ones that will be seen.
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: I will be in the background being supportive.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: That's not my job. Do you watch Real Housewives of
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: Salt Lake City? Are you familiar?
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: I have not watched that one.
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: So one of the things I found, well, our audience
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: is familiar with it. And there are, they're not all
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: from Mormon backgrounds, but some are. And there's the one
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: Heather Gay who leaves the Mormon church and has written
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: two books about bad Mormon and whatever. And she, you know,
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: got divorced and all this. And what I always thought
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: was interesting is that she would get upset how she
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: was like, you know, kind of like bashing the church
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: in the sense of just like, I don't want to
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: be part of it anymore. But then she would be weirdly,
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: in my opinion, as a viewer, like jealous that this
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: other girl, Lisa Barlow, who wasn't raised Mormon. She was
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: raised Jewish, married a Mormon man, and gets to go
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: to all the cool, fun Mormon things, but she also
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: has a tequila company. So I'm always like, sometimes they'll
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: be like butting heads, and I'm like, I think Heather
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: Gay is like, why does she get to still have the, like,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: I really felt like with Heather Gay, she really missed
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: the sense of community that you even see with the, um, the,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: the ones who are, uh, polyam, not polyamorous, uh, polygamy.
• 58:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: Like, you know, and how, how they all work together
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: and how it's all this and, you know, and, and
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: the healthy eating and the ballerina farms lady who like
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: cooks from scratch. I think there's like a desire for that.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: And there's some really lovely goodness about it, you know,
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: like the healthy eating and just like, you know, you,
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: you look at like, you know, uh, Mitt Romney when
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: he was running for president and I'm like, Oh my God,
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: no caffeine, no alcohol. Like this guy looks fucking great
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: for his age.
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: Like, yeah.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Like, I mean, I, and I think that's why they're like,
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: Oh my God, these girls are so attractive and so pretty.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: And everyone's like, you know, pretty good looking. And they're
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: also great salesmen because they had to go be rejected
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: for two years straight on a mission. Like there's some
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: like kind of cool things about it. So I'm I'm
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: sort of fascinated by that for those reasons, but yeah. Yeah.
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: There definitely is a community there that it can be
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: hard to leave. It can be hard to kind of
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: walk away from. And I feel like I kind of
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: still get to dip my toe in that. And so
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: it hasn't been like something that I feel I've lost,
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: which is nice. But also.
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: It's not like a Scientology that when you leave.
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: You are.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: Like no one can talk to you. You can't be
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: invited to a party anymore.
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: That'd be so horrible.
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not like that. Yeah. So then you and Matt,
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: how soon after you start dating do you realize like
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: you are ready to take it to the next level
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: and get married for a second time?
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: So when Matt and I met, I asked him out.
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: We hung out a couple times. He's like, first of all,
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: I need to know more of this story. Like what's
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: going on with you and Steve? What's the dynamic? I
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: don't really know. So he came over and we chatted
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: about all that. And we went.
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: And did he know Steve was gay? Uh-uh. Because he
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: only knew that Steve and I were dating. He just
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: wondered why Steve always wanted to ride behind him.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah. He's like, yeah, whatever. You want to check it out?
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: Check it out, man. That's how Matt is.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, go on.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: But I went after Matt. I was like, hey, I
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: would love to hang out with you. I would love
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: to go out. And we... Had the conversation, got all
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: the clarity, shared about like what happened with him and
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: his ex because he had been married and has two kids.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: And he– anyway, we hung out again and he's like, listen,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: I'm super flattered. You're really cute. And also I'm dating
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: this other girl named Jessica. And we've been dating just
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: long enough that I don't feel good about dating both
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: of you. Her name was Jessica as well.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: He's dating two Jessicas?
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: And he's like so– And I want to see where
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: it goes with this other Jessica. And I said, okay,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: let me know when you break up with her. And
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: he's like, okay. And we still talked like we would
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: see each other at church. I would go to the gym.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: I try and plan my gym routine around when I
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: thought he'd be there because I wanted to see this guy.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: Like I knew there was something there. And I was
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: dating lots of guys along the way. Like, I like dating.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: It's a fun game.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: But you're not having sex with anyone because you're still
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: a good Mormon.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: I am not having sex.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: I am not having sex.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: Uh-huh. But I'm having fun.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: Are you not, being that you're still a good Mormon,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: but you're divorced to a gay man, is it like
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: everything but penetration? Or is it like only touching above
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: the clothes? Like, what kind of rules are you doing
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: for yourself as a mother who's in her 30s now? I.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: was so straight edge. Like if you hit me at
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: this point, things would be a little different with what
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: would happen when I was dating. But I was so
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: straight edge in that like, I mean, no guys touched
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: my boobs. No guys, there was no dry humping. There
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: was none of that. Like I was not, I know.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: But it was just like, and I was fine with it.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: Like it took a lot of drama out of dating
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: for sure. But there were a couple guys I'm like,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: oh yeah, I could have gone back and done that.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: Anyway, I drop in every few months with Matt and
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: I'd let him know again, like, hey, let me know
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: when you break up with her.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: And I think we've got something. So one day at church,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: he texts me during church. He sat by me, which
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: was weird. And then during the second hour, he texts me.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: He's like, hey, do you and the kids, like, do
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: you want to meet us at the park? And I
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: was like, yeah, this is different. And we met up
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: at the park. He was telling me how he's never
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: getting married. He's done dating. He's over all this crap.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: He's breaking up with Jessica tomorrow. None of that. I
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: was like, okay. And he broke up with her the
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: next day. And the next night he was up at
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: my house and we were married eight weeks later. Like
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: we just went for it.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: It's crazy. And so how long have you guys been
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: married for?
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: We've been married 12 years now.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: And okay. So for the last 12 years, how has
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: the dynamic been with ex gay husband and new husband
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: and all of it?
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: They are so good together. It's been a journey. Like
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: there's been a lot of times where, you know, I'd
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: invite Steve to something. I check with Matt still to
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: this day. I'm like, hey, is it okay if I
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: invite Steve? But at the beginning, it was like, let
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: me know afterwards how this felt if I can invite
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: him again.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: Like, let's check in.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we need to have these conversations. And I remember
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: like Matt ended up teaching Penny how to ride her
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: bike because his kids were out riding bikes and she
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: really wanted to learn. And Matt's like, I don't know
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: what to do here.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: Because he felt it was maybe overstepping.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: He didn't want to overstep bounds with Steve.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Or have Steve be like bummed. It's like a haircut thing.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: I remember sometimes my mother-in-law, I'd be traveling so much
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: and I'd come home and the kids would have their haircuts.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: And I know that she thought, well, Heather doesn't have time.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: You know, she's doing stand-up. She's working at Chelsea lately.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: But then little boys, they get their haircuts, they end
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: up looking like they just came out of boot camp.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: And you're like, why did my kid age five years?
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: So it's like, There were those things where... And then...
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: But it wasn't her fault. Like, I understood. So I
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: see how that can happen, you know, with... Especially when
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: there's stepdads and things like that. And the intention is positive.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: But it's so amazing that you guys were so, like,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: in tune with, like, thinking about someone else's feelings.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: We tried... Too bad more people cannot be like that.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: And it's... Yeah. But I can understand, you know... I remember...
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: It's a challenge.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: It is a challenge. It's hard. And I remember in
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: that moment... Like Matt and I had both kind of
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: separately told Steve and sent him pictures and videos because
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: we wanted him to feel included. And he was coming
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: that night to pick Penny up. And Steve's like, I'm
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: really glad you told me. He's like, because it was
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: a moment of like heartbreak. And he's like, and also
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: I wanted to match Penny's energy because I knew when
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: I got there, she was going to be excited and
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: want to show me. And I didn't want her to
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: have to worry about what I was feeling. I wanted
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: her to like, I joined her in her excitement. And
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: so there's been a lot of moments like that as
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: co-parents that we've kind of embraced those things and really
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: talked about.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: You know, I've talked a lot about this, too, because
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: I'm a stepmom.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 6: And it is a— it shouldn't be the child's job to
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 6: have a court order where they can't accidentally call a
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 6: stepparent mom or dad.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: Like, when there's other kids calling their mom and dad and,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: like— I understand why that would be hard for somebody, but, like,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: if you just put it in a small child's perspective... Yes.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: and not your own and what's rightfully yours and how
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: dare this woman that took her for ice cream where
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: she goes, thanks, Mom, and then she sees that a
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: real mom saw that she accidentally slipped. Like, I mean,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: it's hard enough that they're sharing two different homes and,
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: you know... Yeah.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: And I always like to share, like... Steve and Matt.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: So our podcast, when we had it, the three of
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: us hosted a podcast together and it was called husband-in-law.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: Great title.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Because that's what they called each other. And
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: it was such a, like it brought them closer together
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: and healing for Steve in so many ways. And I
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: think for Matt as well, but just this coming together
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: of hearing the story from Steve's side and understanding the
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: pain and the heartache Steve went through, um, Matt tells
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: people all the time, he's like, I love him. Like,
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: he's just part of our family. And it's not like
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: Steve's at our house all the time.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: How could you guys live in the same neighborhood?
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: We're like five minutes away from each other.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's so nice, too.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: It's so great. But he does come over for holidays
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: if he's around. And, like, we do— his birthday was at
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: our house with my parents last year and things like that.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: And is he in a relationship, Steve?
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: I don't know what's going on there right now.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: But he's never— has he ever— Been in something super serious
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: or lived with someone?
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: Yes, he has. And his partner was very much a
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: part of our family as well and is welcomed with
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: open arms.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: Did he ever talk about, Steve, having another child with
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: a man or anything like that?
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 3: Steve talked about it for a little bit. And then
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: I was like, hold your roll, Steve. I need you
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: to realize that this child doesn't go back and forth
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 3: between our houses. You have a full-time child. This is
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: your responsibility, not my kid. He's like, oh.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: Because you think that he thought it wouldn't be.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: I think he just didn't think about the gravity of that.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: Of having another child with someone else.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: Like, this is a full-time job with this other person
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: or whatever, not just me. He was always trying to
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: get me to have another kid. I was like, I try,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: and I don't produce children, apparently. We got lucky with
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: the one.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: So you and Matt, if you had gotten pregnant naturally,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: that would have been great, but you weren't going to
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: go the next levels.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 7: Nope.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: And you said he had two kids, so you are
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: a stepmother as well. How has his ex and you
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: gotten along?
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh. That's been a whole shit show. And
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 3: I always say, like, the divorce was hard. Blending families
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 3: and co-parenting and second marriage is the hardest thing I've
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: ever done. Stepmoms, stepparents in general, it is a lot
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: to navigate and to figure out. So my heart goes
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: out to you as a stepmom. I don't know what
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: your journey has been like.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: But it's a lifetime movie, but it's very, it's very
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: easy now. She's 25 is very easy now. And it's
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: been very easy for quite a while, but no, it's,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: it's very, very hard. And, you know, it's very hard
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: for anybody. And, um, Yeah.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: So but so it's been a challenge for you.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: It's been a challenge. And I think I mean, Matt
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: fell apart when we first got married. I think trauma
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: from his first marriage came up that he wasn't expecting.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: And then I was trying to sort through. is this
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: about me? Is this about something else? I don't know.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: He's not communicating because he didn't communicate in his first marriage.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: That wasn't an open door. So we were dealing with that.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: And then on top of that, we're dealing with his
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: ex-wife and the kids and all of that. And it
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: was a mess. I left at one point. I was like,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: I'm not doing this. I can't stay here. I'm completely
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: losing who I am, and I would rather lose him
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: than lose who I was. Like, I can't. It's not
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: something I'm willing to give up.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: And why was it so hard? Because.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, there were things that were being said about me.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: There was parental alienation that was going on. Just all
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: of those. I mean, at one point, Matt was accused
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: of abuse to her, like, domestic violence. And it came
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: out that that was a lie. And just so many things.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: Those type of things are so awful. Like, did you
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: do the exchanges at the police station? We did them
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: at the church. Oh, at the church.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: At the end of all of that, it was before
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 3: and after church, pick up and drop off.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: I'm still triggered. Like, if I go by certain police stations,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: there's one in Reseda. That's where we used to do
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: the exchanges. Yeah. And one in Fullerton. Yeah. And they
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: even have like a little box of toys like for
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: the people because the reason for someone who's like, why
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: would you do it? Because one of the spouses might
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: make a false accusation that in just exchanging the child
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: that you chuck something at them or do something physical.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: So you want. police witnesses that everything is copacetic yeah
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: it's so not fun.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 4: It is not fun it is not fun the way
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 4: to do it man it's yeah we did one at
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: like we did a fire station for a while and
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 4: I I remember the day after maybe two days after
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 4: the assault charges were put like like laid out there.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: We met at the fire station. By the way, we
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: had all that too.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: We had all that too.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: We met at the fire station and I'm in the
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: car recording out the back window.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: Oh, we had to do the recording.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: And Matt's got a recording going and the kids are like,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: went out to their mom, like Jessica's recording this. And
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: then like, there was this huge blow up and we're like,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 3: why would you not expect us to record this?
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 3: Like you just accused him of assaulting you. Like we're going.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: To have our backs.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: So there's been stuff like that. Now we're good. We
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: can sit at sporting events together.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: How old are all the kids, Penny and your stepkids?
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Our oldest is 18. He just left for college.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 6: Nice.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: And then Matt has a 17-year-old daughter that lives with
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: us almost full-time. And then Penny's almost 16, and she's
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 3: with us basically full-time. I mean, they see their other parents.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: It's just like at that age, it's hard to go
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 3: back and forth. Yeah, they can do their thing.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's up to them to form their relationships and
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: hope that those are good. So tell us about the
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: book and what it covers and why people should order it.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: So the book goes into basically creating deep connection back
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 3: to ourselves. And I do that through decision making.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 6: I help.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: Women mostly walk through how to come back to themselves.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 3: So when life doesn't go as planned, because when does
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: it ever go as planned, you know how to make
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: decisions that are in alignment for you. I did this
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: work in real time as I navigated the divorce and
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: seeing how this played out of like, oh my gosh,
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: I have so much power in this process because I
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 3: know who I am and I'm clear about what I
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: want moving forward. Which often when we hit divorce, we
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 3: don't know what the hell we want. This wasn't the plan.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: This wasn't what our life should look like or where
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: we should go.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: Or even that you're so angry and hurt and you
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: feel tricked and deceived that you give your power away, right?
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: To like the anger and all of that instead of
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: truly being a best friend to yourself.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 3: We get stuck in those emotions.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 3: And they're not leading us towards what we ultimately want. Yes,
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: we need to feel them. Yes, we need to let
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: them be seen. Yes, you are totally entitled to all
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: of them. But maybe don't let that be the key
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 3: thing that's guiding your decisions. And also, don't let your
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: aunt and your best friend and your dad and your
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 3: mom be the decision maker in those moments, which those
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: voices get so loud when you're going through anything big
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 3: in life because everybody has their opinion. Well, you should
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 3: do this. You should be getting divorced faster. These are
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: things I heard. You should get divorced faster. You shouldn't
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: let him be in your life anymore. Like all of
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 3: these things. And I use the word should because it's
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: easy to identify of where we're placing judgment on our actions.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: So I wanted a way to be able to support
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 3: more women. I'm like, listen, I do coaching programs.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: I run.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, they they cost a chunk of money and
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: I know not everybody can afford that. So the book's
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: an opportunity to be able to support more people and
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: help them release that conditioning that we've been in. I mean,
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: so much of it comes from any of us, from
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 3: religion or culture or society. We're going to release that.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: And we're going to understand how decision-making works and how
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 3: we can utilize it for us, how we can really
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: get in tune with our intuition without all of the
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 3: should that's been put on us.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: I love it. So tell everybody where they can find you,
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: follow you, order the book. Yeah. And then when does,
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: when would the book be available once they order it today?
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 3: So you can pre-sale is open right now until September 12th,
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 3: I believe. And then it goes into regular sale.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 3: Right now when you, if you, I don't know if
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 3: this is dropping before September 12th, but yes, you can
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 3: go get like, there's extra coaching bonuses. So if you
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 3: get it now, you can buy into some of those things.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 3: and get extra support in releasing that conditioning so that
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: you can make aligned decisions. And you can go to shoveyourshoulds.com
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: anytime you're hearing this and pick that up. And then
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 3: I am most active on Instagram. You can find me
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: at heyjessicafru.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I think it's great. And I'm
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: so glad that you came down in person and we
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: got to spend this time together. It was a really great,
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: inspiring conversation.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me. It's been awesome.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:15:14
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