Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Firing Squad Execution FAIL, From 5 Yards Away

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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Firing Squad Execution FAIL, From 5 Yards Away · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Quody Dinars, but Joseph's gotten more. If given the task,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: could we do it. There's so many people out there
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: that say that they would do it, but yet there's
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: a very small and I mean very small percentage of
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: people that have actually ever done it. What I'm talking
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: about is, let's see what are some of the euphemistic
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: terms pulling switch, pressing the button, or in our case today,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: pulling the trigger. Today we're going to talk about an
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: execution that recently took place in the state of South Carolina. Now,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Brother Dave and I have talked about executions in the past,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: but this one is a particular interest me. So let's
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: explore what happens in what failed happened in what summer
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: calling a watched execution. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: is body bags fifteen feet, Dave, that's all that separates
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: the end of a muzzle from a static target strapped
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: to a chair. Fifteen feet. Let's see, that's five yards.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Being an old high school football player, I always measure
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: things in yards because I can visualize that from being
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: on a playing field. So it's weird, I think for
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: many people, particularly those that deal in the metric system
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: on a regular basis. But that's a conversation for another day.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: But for me, you know, I'm thinking five yards away,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: that's it's not very far. And to be handed a
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: weapon and be told that at the other end, only
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: a five yard shot with a long barreled weapon that
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: is rifled hit this target. And boy, did things take
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: a bad turn.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: We know, South Carolina, we're dealing with the execution of
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Mikel Maddy. This is a man who actually wrote in
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: a letter for his attorneys to share, I'm guilty as hell.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: What I've done is irredeemable. That is directly from the
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: subject of today. Mikel Mody was on a crime spree.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: He's twenty one years old. He starts off in Virginia.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: He ends up in North Carolina where he steals a
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: vehicle and he actually kills a clerk. He then heads
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: down to South Carolina where he tries to use a
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: credit card to get gas in his vehicle and he
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: spends like forty five minutes trying to do it and
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: it's not working because the credit card is not any good. Well,
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: the clerk calls cops. Hey, man, there's a guy out
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: here trying to get some gas and whatever. And so
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: they show up and there's a bit of a you know,
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: they're after this guy, Mikel Maddy ends up at a
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: farm area, not like a corn farm or you know,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: cotton or whatever, but farmland that had been purchased by
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: a couple.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: As they're piece of heaven on earth.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, beautiful area, a little pond and things,
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: and there's this shed that they had built on this property.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Was it was a big deal for them because they
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: don't even the couple won't even marry fifteen months, show
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: fifteen months and I'm thinking this is just too cool
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: for school. And they get married in front of the
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: shed that they had built, and that's where Michel Maddy
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: ran into the actual victim of this case, Jim Myers,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: a fifty six year old officer of the law. Yeah,
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: Mikel Maddy shot him at least eight times, probably more
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: and then poured diesel fuel over his body and set
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: him on fire. That is what mcelmody admitted to, and
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: that's why he was sentenced to death.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I found this interesting because you know, most
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: of the time you have to you know, if you've
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: got somebody involved in something like this. The fact that
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: he admitted to it. You, I think that many people believe,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: and wrongly believe that for some reason, you're going to
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: be shown a level of mercy. Maybe he was thinking
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: about that, you know, by the courts, that maybe he'd
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: only be looking at potentially life in prison or something.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: But I got to tell you, this guy is police officer,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: and yeah, he's off duty. Not just a police officer.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: He's a captain and had had a long career. You know,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: he's like in his mid fifties, old Joe. Yeah, and
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: can you imagine you've lived this life. You've been away
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: from your family at night, working third watch, and I'm
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: just thinking about this guy's life. You know now looking back,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: you know he's worked time away from his family. He's
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: probably missed ball games and dance recitals and everything else
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: that comes along that we always talk about. And then
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: you get to this kind of mucolic place where just
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: over the horizon you can see that you're finally going
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: to be able to hang up your badge and celebrate
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: and you found love and maybe even peace. And then
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: this descends upon you. Out of all people in the world,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: that this perpetrator could have shown up on the doorstep
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: of it's this guy, and this is arguably a just
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: an absolute brutal example of overkill of an individual. Why
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: would you feel compelled to do this? And you there's
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: an interesting point that you brought up, Dave. You use
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: the term frenzy with this individual, that he's hishill. His
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: sole focus is to get from point A to point B.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: And you really wonder because so many people, and you know,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: I hate the why question. I think more importantly, what
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: was his end game? Was he just going to, you know,
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: descend upon us like the Angel of Death or the
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Black Plague and wipe out as many people as he could.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Where are you going to go at that point in time.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: I'm always fascinated in a general sort of way about
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: these people that do this sort of thing. It's always
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: amazing to me. And can I back up just for
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: a second. You had mentioned North Carolina with this clerk,
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: and again the perpetrator in this case was not put
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: to death or had not been sentenced to be executed
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: regarding the event in South in North Carolina. But I
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: have kids that I teach, Okay, that work in convenience
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: stores and for my money, for my money. It is
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: one of the most dangerous jobs aside from like food delivery,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: this sort of thing where you don't know who's going
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: to be walking in the door. And you know, police
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: officers actually refer to convenience stores many times as stopping robs.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: That's what they'll refer to it, because they're easy targets,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: and it is, you know, and there's so many of
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: these cases out there where convenience store workers have been killed.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know, it's not a it's not a job
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: I would take per se. I guess you've got a
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: lot of time to study. You know, you can hang
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: out behind the counter and study, but you Dave, you
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: never know what's going to walk through the door.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: It's shocking to me as well, Joe, that I look
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: at convence I get people who work, the people who
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: actually punch a time clock working at a convenience store
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: or whatever they have. I just respect them so much,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: I really do, especially when they're going to school, because
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: you know, I had to do that too when I
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: went to school, I had to work. And those who
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: punch a time clock and are they're just doing what
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: they have to do to get by, to get to
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: the next level. I just think it's a great example,
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: and too often we dismiss it, we throw that off
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: of the side. But it's like those jobs you do,
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: like working at a convenience store as a clerk, regardless
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: of the danger, it is a step to someplace else.
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: It's not the end all, you.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: Know, it's not where you plan on being when you're
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: in college at twenty to be in that same place
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: twenty years from now. It's a job that has done
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: to get you to the next stop in your life.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: And that's when I look at this guy. He's only
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: twenty one when he commits this crime, these crimes plural.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know what he was doing, Joe. I don't
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: know what his plan was when he woke up July fourteenth,
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: two thousand and four. We're talking about, you know, in
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: this show about a botched execution, the victim is not
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: the victim. You know, technically he is in this story,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: but I couldn't write it, Joe. I could not put
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: a victim next to this man's name. He was a
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: victimizer who was paying his debt to society, which had
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: been your life. Got to give it up. And anyway,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know what he.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Was doing, what he left in his wake, though, or
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: two people that are statious that are they're neither one
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: of these individuals were you know, living somewhere in some palace. Okay,
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: they don't. They've given everything that they can give. I mean,
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: they both wind up, you know, giving their lives, you know,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: to the appetite of this monster. But I can tell
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: you this, the monster that all the way back in
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: the early two thousands, that committed both of these crimes,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: he had a day of reckoning, in a day where
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: his life ended with a parent awareness of his death,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: writhing in pain while strapped to a chair. There was
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: a there's a running joke in in my family. I
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: think it was my daughter that you know, this term was,
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of used a lot when she was
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: a young teenager, and it kind of got adopted by
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: our family. And if one of us screwed up something LEXI,
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: my daughter would say, way to go, dad, you're ruining
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: it for everybody. And and you know, and we would
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: we would say that to one another all the way around.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: And that's that's it's a comical remark. It's generally said
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: in jest, and that sort of thing but Dave, what
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: happened in that execution chamber is literally an example I think,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: at least as far as capital punishment is concerned of
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: individuals ruining it for everybody. Uh, let's you know the thing.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: The thing that's so distasteful I think for a lot
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: of people is someone has to stand up and you know,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: like I mentioned earlier, you know, flip the lever, push
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: the button, pulled the trigger, and we have always, i think,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: try to and the execution process has kind of evolved
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: in our country. Capital punishment has where individuals are seeking
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: to do it as humanly as they possibly can. You know,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: and years ago, you know, you had judicial hangings and
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: yeah there were botched hangings, but the line share of
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: the hangings that occurred were successful. Okay, and I'm talking
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: about on the first drop. But you can't imagine. I
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: think that a lot of people can't imagine seeing someone
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: that is suspended in the air by their neck and
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: they're flipping around, and that for many people, that's very distasteful.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: Can I ask you something very quickly? Yeah? Sure? All right.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: When I was a child, I didn't know when you
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: hang that the goal of hanging somebody was you know,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: to snap their neck as they fell. I thought that
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: it was to strangle them. I really did. I thought
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: like they put the noose on and pretty much just
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: put their hands tied behind their back, pulled them up
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: until they died from you know, their neck being strangled,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: you know, by the rope. I didn't know that it
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: was a mathematical thing where they had, you know, took
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: the weight, height and everything else into consideration when they
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: determined where where the news needed to be fashioned and
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: how and all that so that when that individual dropped,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: the neck would snap and it would be very quick.
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: I didn't know that. Yeah, it don't happen that way,
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: but I didn't know that was that.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Was the whole point. And it had been literally perfected
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: over a period of time where there was a formula
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: that was applied to this. But you know, if you
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: go back to Noah, my son had he said, if y'all,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: if y'all, I urge you to sit down and watch
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: the movie Napoleon with me and the thing with Joaquin
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Phoenix that came out. I thought it was pretty good.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: It's beautifully filmed, and you watch this thing being played out,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: and during that period of time they had developed a guillotine,
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: and the guillotine was regarded as like the perfect killing machine.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: The French were even using it. I think there's a
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: wood carving or a lithograph. I can't remember what it
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: is of the last guillotining that took place in France.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: I think it was in the nineteen twenties, and it's
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: like looking over over a wall, and these were spectacles,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: you know, they as time went by, they had tried
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: to prevent the public from actually seeing it, and you know,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: they viewed it back then as I think a lot
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: of the ancestors did. As it's not just getting rid
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: of the individual and making them punished for this or
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: punishing them for what they've done their acts, but it
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: was also a matter of deterrence because if it happens
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: in a vacuum, you're you know, people don't really believe
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: that it happened, or they don't see it. It doesn't
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: like ingrain in their memory, and of course that memory
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: is passed on to the rest of the family. You know,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: if you have a family that is represented by one individual,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: that one individual is going to go back to their
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: family and say, you're not going to believe what I
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: just saw, and this is a price that is paid.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: I watched it. I watched them walk them out, I
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: watch them strap them to a pole or you know,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: make them kneel before guillotine or whatever the case might be.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: And that information has passed on. So even if there
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: were not people from that person's family present to witness this,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: that one individual goes back set forth like a little
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: sailing ship, just you know, setting out this information. Individual saying, Man,
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: it ain't worth whatever it is that you want to
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: do to lose your life over this was horrific. We've
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: lost that. That doesn't exist anymore. That's that's why, that's
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: kind of why capital punishment is not truly in its
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: pure sense, not an effective deterrent, because you know, they
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: go into a blockhouse.
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, when did they stop doing it in public? Joe?
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: I mean? And why?
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Well, in the early nineteen hundreds, early twentieth century, you
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: had individuals that I think up until the nineteen early
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, you had public executions by hanging. I don't
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: know much about firing squads in the US. I know
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: that they did exist, but there was something that took
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: place in the American mind where, yeah, we knew that
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: we were going to send people away to prisons. We
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: knew that they were there, but it was too I
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: don't know if it was vic Torrian sensibilities or Edwardian
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: sensibilities that you know that changed the mindset of people
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: where they did not want to observe the horror of it.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: And let's face it, early nineteen hundreds were brutal. You
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: think about World War One and how brutal it was.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: People had had enough death. They didn't want to see
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: it now. They didn't want monsters walking on the street either,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: and so I think that it was at that point
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: in time where they you know, they kind of covered,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: you know, concealed this look. The first place I ever
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: did autopsies Dave on a regular basis was inside of
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: a jail. The morgue was actually inside the parish jail.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: And guess what sat on the site of literally right
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: where the morgue was prior to the morgue being there,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: the parish gallows. So even at a county level back then,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: at parish's the same as counties, there were gallows there.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: And I think that they had done a public execution.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: I think the last one my history is getting jumbled,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: but I think it's like in the eighteen seventies or something,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: so it's always been kind of part and parcel of
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: what happens here in our judicial system. People don't agree
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: with it, and that's okay not to agree with it.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: I have my questions as well, But if you're going
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: to do it, if you're going to do it, there
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: is a level of exactitude that has to be in
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: place with your process. Who's going to handle the weapons,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: how this thing is orchestrated. Because those that want to
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: make execution more efficient and humane, all it takes is
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: for one screw up and everybody else is going to
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: have to pay the price relative to this, and then
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: you're going to go searching for another methodology. We've come
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: through so many now, I mean, let's just think about it.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: California used to have gas chamber. That doesn't exist anymore.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Cruel and unusual. I got admit it's it's it's kind
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: of harsh, all right. You think about the gallows, and
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: that's not something that we've seen. One of the things
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: that people thought was going to answer this question make
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: it humane. Is is actually something that that Thomas Edison
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: had a hand in and that's the creation of the
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: electric chair. We used it for years and years, but
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: there are all these horrible mishaps that occurred along the
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: way where it was what they were using was not
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: necessarily sufficient to the need. And if you want to
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: see the brutality of what happens with electrocution as horrible
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: as Ted Bundy was, go look at his at his
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: post mortem images and you'll see you'll see how scored
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: his his his scalp is, you know. And there are
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: all of these stories, some of them might be a
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: bit apocryphal, but there are all these stories about people
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: catching fire. I'm not saying that the capital punishment is wrong.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying the problem is is that you don't
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: know how any one event is going to direct how
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: the rest of the country is going to go. We
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: get it away from the electric chair and suddenly they
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: think that we've got the perfect thing. We're going to
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: use lethal injection. Well, how are you going to facilitate
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: this if you can't get the drugs and you have
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: to have the right you have to have the right
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: combination of drugs, and you've got drug companies that won't
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: sell you the drugs, and then there's horror stories with
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: that and people can't bear watching it. So isn't it funny?
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: How now we've kind of come full circle back to
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: a methodology that I know we've covered at least to
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: one other case far. We've come full circle back to
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: methodology involving firearms where an individual is tied anchored to
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: a fixed object, in this case in South Carolina chair
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: and you literally have a firing squad where you know
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: they're going to send lead core projectiles down range to
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: pierce your body. Unfortunately, the problem is is that some
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: people apparently can't shoot straight. Three to eight Winchester. It
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: is arguably one of the most storied rounds of ammunition
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: in American history. It's existed, the thirty caliber rifle round
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: has existed forever and ever. I've mentioned this before, but
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: it bears, you know, repeating that most of the stuff
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: that we use in the civilian world, as far as
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: firearms go, it evolved out of the utility that the
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: military had. And we've got several permutations of the thirty
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: caliber round or approximately thirty caliber that go all the
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: way back to I think probably the most significant it
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: is probably thirty odd to six that was used, and
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: there's been several iterations along the way, and we landed
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: on three oh eight. Again that designation for people that
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: don't understand calibers, which can be it can be confusing.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: This is the old British system three oh eight. It
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: essentially measures out the circumference of the round. That is,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: how big around is this particular round. So if you
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: think about it, it's zero point three eight inches and
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: that round in particular is still in use today around
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: the world, even in our military. Three oh eight. You know,
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: you think about the old M fourteen platform, which you
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: know still we use a variant of M fourteen in
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: the military because many special ops personnel prefer this round
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: over five point five six or the two two three
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: caliber because it's more robust. It really packs a wallop.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: But this is where South Carolina landed. They landed on
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: three oh eight Winchester. And the way their executions are
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: set up, this is strictly a voluntary program where if
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: you're part of the correctional system, and I don't mean
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: as an inmate, but I mean as an employee. Apparently
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: they have and they haven't really explained it. They keep
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: some of the stuff veiled you have three volunteers that
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: step up and they become the executioners. And so they've
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: gone they went a long way to kind of perfect
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: I guess, or try to account for any kind of
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: problems that might arise in an execution. Built out or
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: redesigned what's referred to as the death house. They've sent
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: out one photo of this thing, and it is actually
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: the chair that you can see that the individuals are
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: strapped to. And then I guess it's kind of hearkening
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: back to the past. They brought in their electric chair
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: and there's a picture of it. So you've got the
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: firing squad chair there that's facing I would assume towards
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: the wall, because if you look behind a veil, you
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: can see what appears to be clay stacked up there
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: or maybe sandbags that's behind a black curtain, and then
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: you've got the electric chair that's literally you're staring at.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: So that's the image that they've put out and it's
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: a very tight space.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: Dave.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: That's that's one of the things about this that when
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: this round, if people out there have not heard a
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: three h eight round being discharged, this thing would rattle
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: your cage. If you've got three of them going off.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Just the reverberation of the sound in this environment. It's
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: not like firing off a twenty two caliber, which is
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: very small, it would really get your attention. But this
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: is a very confined space. And I'm really amazed by this.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by this because, you know, you think about
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: the old idea of a of a firing squad. I
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: think about the Kubrick movie Pass the Glory with Kirk
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Douglas and they marched the guys out. They're strapped to
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: a post, they're blindfolded, and you've got a whole line
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: of soldiers, one line kneeling in the front, the other
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: standing in the back, and they're firing at it. Like
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: in this thing, it looks like they're firing at a distance.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: They weren't only talking about fifteen feet five yards, man.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: That's a very very small range of fire, Joe. And
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: the reason we're actually spending time on it today is
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: because even though it is only five yards fifteen feet,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: there was a problem with this execution. There was a problem.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Now did they have I I'm going to ask you
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: because I'm curious. I thought that when they an execution
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: was done by firing squad, that several people were dummies
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: or you know, they were firing blanks pretty much, that
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: you had say ten people, of which two or three
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: you know, had both live action and the rest were not.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: And so that no, but he knew exactly who did
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: the killing, because that seems to.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Be consider Apparently that's not the way South Carolina is
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: doing this, and these people have practiced as well, I.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Would think, so, Joe, and fifteen feet is from you
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: know nothing. I mean, that's not a first down in football.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: This is a very short distance. It's nothing. You know,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: you're not cracking off a shot from a thousand yards here.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: And what's really interesting, Dave, is that, you know I
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: mentioned the three h eight Winchester A round. This is
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: fired through a rifled barrel. Okay, now they don't say
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: whether or not the rifles are scoped. I would think
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: personally that having at a range of five yards, which
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: is just very elemental, I think that a scope would
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: probably impede your ability to fire accurately at that short
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: of a distance. You'd be much better off with iron sights.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: We're dealing with experts, We're not dealing with people who
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: are trying to pass their class to get a certification
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: to viral weapon.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know what the qualification is other than
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: being a volunteer with a correction system. And you know,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: I've met some people that work within the correction system
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: and they are many times those individuals are the most
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: a few, not all, but they've been the most ardent,
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: anti capital punished people that you come around. Because when
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: you live in an environment with people day in and
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: day out, you know, it really humanizes them. It's easy
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: for us on the outside to say, yeah, well we
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: need to execute this guy. We need to put him away,
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: and he never should breathe any more free air. A
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: matter of fact, he shouldn't breathe any air at all.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: We're going to end his life. But they've chosen or
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: have volunteers that have come up out of this Corrections officers. Uh,
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: tough job, one of the most toughest, one of the
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: toughest jobs that you can have, because you're going into
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: a lockdown situation every single day. I would suffocate. There
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: is no way I could do that job. But because
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: your corrections officer does not make you an expert with
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: a weapon. You know, I'm thinking you know in the
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: state of the state of South Carolina. Uh. One place
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: that actually produces some of the greatest marksmen in the
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: world is right down the road in Paris Island, South Carolina.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: The United States Marine Corps depot down there, Paris Island,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: you know, Uh, and you could. I'm thinking that probably
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: somebody in recruit training, even when they get toward the
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: end of it, Uh, they would they would fare much
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: better under these circumstances as far as accuracy goes. I
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: don't know how much. I don't know how much train up,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: you know, these corrections officers have had, did somebody get nervous?
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: But the the big thing here, Dave, is that what
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: we're being told is that out of three shooters, you've
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: only got two defects or bullet holes in the body.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: And I don't see how in the world you could
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: have missed, which is I think one of the big questions.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: And not only miss but even the two that entered
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: the body were not center mass shots that took out
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: the heart. Which is their rationale in this particular case,
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: is that if you can go in in these rounds,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: the three oh eight, it's called a what was it
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: called again, it's an urban. This particular type of mo
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: is a it's like an urban ammunition, ground tap urban ammunition.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: And just so we understand what happens when that round
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: strikes dave not to be it's not a through and
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: through round. You're not looking. It's not like what you
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: would hunt deer with. Necessarily, you're talking about something that
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: because they're talking about there's an urban designation on this.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: The idea is that this is like a police sniper
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: around that goes in. The projectile actually fragments upon impact
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: and it sends these little sharps or the body. And
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: what happens is if you're aiming center mass of the heart.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: So if everybody will find their sternum and move just slightly,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: it's not all the way over as far as you
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: can go on the left side of the body. Just
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: find your sternum, that flat bone right in the center
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: of your chest. Move over about an inch and you're
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: right on top of your heart. Okay, it's inferior to
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: where your sternum is, the sternoclovicular notch up there. Just
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: go down about two or three inches and then over
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: to the left slightly and you're right on target. They
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: missed they missed that area with a rifle round.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: From five yards away, Joe fifteen feet. The only other
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: person with any kind of marksmen experience that could miss
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: that shot would be Lee Harvey Oswald. I mean, that's
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: about it. Everybody else is going to hit something. But
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: in this case, we have three shooters or three bullets
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: coming towards the subject, and you only have two that
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: they can say definitively entered. Two of the bullets entered
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: this man's body, and they did not enter in the heart.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: Did they not draw an exit the circle around it?
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: You know? Mark?
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: Well, here's one of the things that we're hearing. There's
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: actually a marker that is placed on the body. And
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: again they haven't demonstrated to us in the public what
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: this marker looks like. Okay, I've seen, I've seen, you know,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: it's generally portrayed. Well, it's portrayed. Actually, I think I've
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: seen newsreels with this from World War Two where they're
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: executing war crimes people. Most of those were executed by
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: by hanging, but there are some and you'll see there's
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: like a white patch of cloth that is pinned approximating
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: the heart. Okay, you know, you know where it is,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: and there's actually a physician there. This is the thing
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: about it. You've got a physician there that has a stethoscope.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: My question is is the is the physician involved in
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: placement of the patch? And I know that some people
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: might say, well, that would violate the hipocratic oath. You know, well,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: I don't think that it would. As a matter of fact,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: I think it's an extension of mercy because if you
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: know that this is going to happen, there's nothing you
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: can do about it. So if you zero in on
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: that area, you have a physician or nurse that stand
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: there with the stethoscope, they can actually appreciate and locate
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: the exact location of the heart and they say, okay, guys,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: put the patch right here. All right, no question about
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: it at this point in time. But there has been
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: comment There have been comments made that would indicate that
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: the patch was misplaced. But even even if it is misplaced, two,
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: I would assume to the left, like further away from
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: the heart, then you're still even in that location. I
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: can't imagine out of the three shooters you're gonna you're
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: gonna have what's referred to as a flyer and if
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: you ever go to the range, and particularly with handguns,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: people will have flyers every now and then, and that
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: means that when you fire, you have a bullet or
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: projectile that completely misses the target. You rarely see that
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: at a range of five yards. I know in law enforcement,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: I qualified twice a year with a handgun and five yards.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: I think now we have a three yard range as well.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: But five yards is really nothing. You know, if you're
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: shooting center mass, which are taught to do center mass
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: at a static target. This guy's static. He ain't moving anywhere, okay,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: and so you have a weapon that is meant to
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: hit the target at long range. It's high velocity. I'm
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: failing to understand what happened. What's fascinating about this day
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: is that the corner for this particular county and this happens.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: I've been involved in autopsies involving executed individuals. The corner
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: in this particular county is assigned to request the examination
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: of the dead. This is a homicide, okay, there's no
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: other way. You know, you and I have spent a
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: lot of time recently talking about manner and cause of death.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: There's no other way you can classify this. Okay, this
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: is a homicide. Even though it's state sanctioned, this is
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: a homicide. So in most states, if you have a
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: violent homicide like this, it's required that you do an autopsy.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: And there's another reason you need to do it on
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: somebody that is dying at the hands of state. It's
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: going to be thorough. It's the most thorough autopsy you've
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: ever seen. I mean things places in the body are
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: dissected that we would not normally do. It takes a
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: long time to conduct one of these autopsies. But apparently
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: the pathologists that did the autopsy on this case opined
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: that two of the rounds entered the body at the
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: same spot. Okay, now, I've seen this happen by an
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: individual firing at close range with a handgun and they
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: score two hits in the same defect. But and it's
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: pretty you can still delineate it. Sometimes they're not perfectly
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: matched up. But you've got a physician that's saying pathologists
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: that's saying that none, no, no, we've got two rounds
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: that enter the same location, and we've got a second one,
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: you know, that is off by itself. The problem is
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: is that they don't go into a lot of scriptors
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: as to what organ systems were impacted. I can only
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: assume that perhaps the lung, the left lung, and it
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: has been implied at least that the heart was clipped
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: in some way by one of these rounds, but it
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: was not to the point where death was instantaneous, because
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: what the report is is that as soon as the
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: order was given for the squad to fire simultaneously. Witnesses
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: stated that this guy being executed screamed out simultaneously, as
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: he's not screaming out in pain at that moment time,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: he is screaming out okay, and he is shot. Well
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: about forty seconds later, they heard him moan. Okay, most
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: of the time with an execution where somebody has shot
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: center mass into the heart, they're not going to make
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: another move. They're dead. That's the efficiency of firing squads. Okay,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: that's not what happened. Forty seconds later they heard him moan,
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: and approximate a total of seventy seconds after the actual shooting,
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: he's heard to kind of whimper again and then dies.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: That's not what you want in an execution, okay, you
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: want this thing to be sudden and swift and merciful.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: And I know people are saying, well, he doesn't deserve mercy.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: I understand that. But the argument here is the following.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: If a group of people screw this up, then you're
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: going to be out walking around the weeds looking for
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: another means of execution. I mean, what we're going to do.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: We're going back to the guillotine now, you know, because
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: this case, Dave, and there's already been a lawsuit filed,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: and we'll talk about that in just a second, this
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: case from now on regarding capital punishment is going to
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: be cited. Okay, It'll be cited as being cruel and unusual,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: all right. So it's the idea, it's the idea of
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: these individuals not doing their job effectively that's problematic. The
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: family retained the services of a fellow that I've personally met,
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: that I've known. Matter of fact, he was I think
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: he was. He was actually in to become the chief
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: medical Examiner in Atlanta. That's how I met him, and
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: I was working there. His name's Jonathan Arden, and he
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: was he was a medical examiner with the Office of
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: Chief Medical Examiner in New York. I think he was
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. As well, two major offices. And
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: this guy is really he's really sharp, hell of a
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: nice guy and very proficient at what he does. But
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: you know, Dave, he he actually stated he got to
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: review all of these materials. And the big thing about
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: it is this, he said that there were no X
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: rays done, The detail in the autopsy with the wound
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: tracks was not to his way of thinking, was not
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: sufficiently described, and they didn't examine the clothing. Now, you
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: don't examine the clothing on a gunfire related death. You're
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: going to skew your data. Okay, there's no mention of it.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: According to doctor Art.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: What's the purpose for doing the clothing?
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: Well, okay, let's think. Let's just think about it this way.
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: Brother.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: If you've got if you've got somebody wearing a scrub top,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: you know, like many prisoners do you know, having an
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: orange orange jumpsuits or scrubtops or whatever, that clothing from
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: a forensic standpoint, is like another layer of skin. Okay, So,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: and this could apply to knife wounds as well. But
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: when you you fire three through it, it will be
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: a another indicator of point of impact relative to a round.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: And you haven't examined the clothing. I mean, that's like
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: forensic pathology one O one. You know, before you actually
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: ever strip the body down, you're going to take detailed
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: photographs of everything that the person was wearing while they're
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: still wearing it, okay, and you to try to orient everything.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: And then you said, no X rays, why not take
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: you're doing an autopsy, why not do X rays?
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: I don't understand that. And here's here's another thing that
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: comes in with the three O eight round. What did
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: I say earlier? And you had actually reminded me of this.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: This is not like my revelation here you actually had
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: had It's a fragmented round. And you know the beauty
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: of fragmented rounds that are demonstrated on X ray. It's
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: it's shocking, you know when you this, because when you
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: open up a body, all right, just so folks understand,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: when you open up a body and it's been greatly traumatized,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: you're going to see a mass of hemorrhage, pulled blood,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: ripped tissue, all those sorts of things. X rays cut
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: through all of that. You don't see that mass hemorrhage.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: What you see, particularly with a fragmented round, which is
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: the intention of this urban round, that you will see
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: a little lead storm, okay, and it will be if
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: the bullet acts like it does not all bullets. It's
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: just like Holow points. All Holow points don't necessarily deploy, okay.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Sometimes they'll just pass right through the body. The hope
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: is that it will deploy and it doesn't exit out
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: and harm somebody else. That's the point of the sniper round.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: So if you shoot somebody and they're in a window
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: and they're holding hostages, you want the round to wind
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: up in their body and not penetrate the body, but
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: you want to kill them so that you know the
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: hostages get hurt. It doesn't pass through another wall and
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: into another home or somebody bystander or something like that.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: The extra here is mind blowing or the absence of it,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: and Arden makes reference to that. He also makes reference
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: to the idea that out of all of his years
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: of doing autopsies, and I can tell you his count
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: is huge, all right, he has. It's such a rare
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: occurrence that you would have two rounds go through the
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: same defect in the body. You know, it's a real
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: head scratcher, you know, as far as I guess, as
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: far as doctor Arden is going.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: To ask you something that Joe, yeah, man, if there
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: are two again marksmen, all three are, I'm going to
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: assume they are marksmen, that these are good shots, even
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: though it is only five yards away. I'm going to
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: assume they've done their homework and these three cats are
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: we don't worry about them hitting the target. But to
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: have two bullets go into the same track, that means
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: that all three of them missed the mark, and that
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: two of them missed the mark in the exact same spot.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: I would buy it more if they were in the
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: right spot, that there were two going in there.
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: That would make a whole lot more sense to me
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: than missing.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we come back to this idea of placement of
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: the marker. Was the marker misplaced and they happened to
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: hit the same spot through the marker, and because of
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: the anatomical disorientation here, you know, you you happen to
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: have two really good shots that were off target. And
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: that's you know, that's that's hugely problematic here, because you
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: want to be able to think at the end of
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: the day that people that do research on these sorts
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: of things as gruesome as it is, but it is
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: it's something that we study. You begin to think about
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: effectiveness of rounds that are being utilized for a variety
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: of different purposes, in this case, ending the life of
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: a cop killer who took this poor man out in
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: the shed that he and his wife new wife had
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: built with their hands, shoots him eight nine times, saturates
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: his body in diesel fuel, and sets him on fire. Well,
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: the problem I think arises is that, to me, in
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: one way, your lack of preparedness and your lack of
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: attention to detail dishonors his memory. Just think about that,
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: just for a second, because you cannot be efficient enough
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: to be counted upon to do your job. That's seventy
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: seconds that this individual lived after the shooting could be
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: seventy seconds that might change the way we all view
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: capital punishment. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: h