Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / What The Japanese Thought Of The First Westerners... And Vice Versa. With dr. Christopher Harding

Transcript

What The Japanese Thought Of The First Westerners... And Vice Versa. With dr. Christopher Harding · The Smart Cookies podcast

• 0:00
  He says, when they drink, they don't use their
• 0:02
  cups properly. When they eat, they don't use
• 0:05
  chopsticks, but they eat with their hands. When
• 0:09
  they show their feelings, they do it without
• 0:10
  any self -control and they don't comprehend the
• 0:13
  principles that lie within written characters.
• 0:17
  They wander from place to place, bartering things
• 0:20
  which they have for those that they do not have.
• 0:24
  They are quite harmless. He concludes. And I
• 0:27
  think it's so interesting, right? It's how they
• 0:28
  drink, how they eat, what their manners are.
• 0:31
  The fact that the Portuguese, he's already dealt
• 0:33
  with them enough to know that they are kind of
• 0:36
  what we might call emotionally incontinent. Ladies
• 0:42
  and gentlemen, super happy to report that we
• 0:43
  have an absolute feast of an episode in store
• 0:47
  for you today because we are joined by none other
• 0:49
  than Dr. Christopher Harding, senior lecturer
• 0:51
  in Asian history at the University of Edinburgh,
• 0:53
  author of many incredible books. on Japan and
• 0:56
  most of all a VIP of the Smart Cookie Cinematic
• 0:59
  Universe. Chris, welcome back to the show. What
• 1:01
  a lovely introduction. Thank you for having me
• 1:03
  back. I try. How's everything? I mean, unbearable
• 1:08
  summer heatwaves in Japan where I live are not
• 1:11
  uncommon, but how do you deal with that in the
• 1:13
  UK, a country I've been to... Five times, I think,
• 1:17
  in total and haven't seen a single ray of sunshine.
• 1:21
  We're not known for it. But we've been having
• 1:24
  35, 36 degrees on and off the last two, three
• 1:29
  weeks. Yeah. So our response to it is normally
• 1:31
  to cancel everything. So sports days, days even
• 1:35
  at school, our railways don't run properly. We
• 1:38
  sort of collapse, I think, more or less above
• 1:40
  30 degrees. But it's nice. It's better than rain,
• 1:43
  isn't it? So I shouldn't complain. Okay. Last
• 1:47
  time we tackled probably one of the most fascinating
• 1:50
  chapters, not just in Asian, but in all of history.
• 1:54
  And that was the forced kind of prying open of
• 1:57
  Japan, a nation that wanted nothing to do with
• 1:59
  the outside world for, I believe, over 200 years.
• 2:02
  But also the astonishing modernization that followed
• 2:05
  and kind of took the world by storm and which
• 2:08
  you write about in your book, A History of Modern
• 2:10
  Japan. So, dear listeners. you know what you
• 2:13
  should do. Call in sick at work today, drop your
• 2:16
  child, drop your homework or whatever obligations
• 2:18
  you have and go check out that episode right
• 2:21
  now. Anyway, since we last talked, you haven't
• 2:26
  just been wasting away on TikTok like me. No,
• 2:29
  sir. You wrote another book that's coming out
• 2:32
  soon and whose title definitely speaks to me.
• 2:36
  And that's Barbarians, the first entry of European
• 2:39
  encounter with Japan. Yes. Yeah, that's right.
• 2:44
  So I've gone sort of back in time to the 16th,
• 2:47
  early 17th centuries, the very first Westerners
• 2:50
  to get to Japan. It's such a, we'll get into
• 2:53
  it in a minute, but for me, it's such a fascinating
• 2:55
  century because that later period, the one that
• 2:58
  we talked about, you know, 19th, early 20th century,
• 3:00
  part of the dilemma for Japan is how do you deal
• 3:03
  with overwhelming Western? power, right? Military,
• 3:06
  economic, cultural. In this earlier period, the
• 3:09
  shoe is on the other foot, as we say in British
• 3:12
  English. I don't know how much sense that will
• 3:13
  make to many viewers, meaning that Japan has
• 3:16
  most of the power in that first phase of encounter.
• 3:21
  So it just feels very, very different to the
• 3:24
  second. And I found it fascinating to go back
• 3:26
  and explore it. It is fascinating. And I have
• 3:30
  a bit of a stake in all this because Am I not
• 3:32
  the direct descendant of these illustrious and
• 3:35
  daring European sailors and adventurers? I mean,
• 3:38
  as a foreigner in Tokyo, I'm basically the 2026
• 3:40
  version of Anjin -san from Shogun. Only instead
• 3:43
  of, I don't know, sexy intrigues, frequent life
• 3:47
  and death situations, and fighting the samurai,
• 3:50
  I hang out in front of 7 -Eleven with my little
• 3:52
  iced latte. complain about the Japanese banking
• 3:55
  system and struggle to navigate their poorly
• 3:59
  designed websites here. But everything else,
• 4:01
  almost the same, right? Basically the same, yeah.
• 4:04
  What a lovely idea. You're the direct descendant.
• 4:06
  Fantastic. On that basis, we can proceed. On
• 4:10
  that basis, let's go into the nitty gritty. The
• 4:14
  first Europeans landed in Japan in the middle
• 4:15
  of the 16th century, right? And that happens
• 4:18
  sort of by accident, if my memory serves me right.
• 4:23
  Yeah, yeah, that's right. So we're talking about
• 4:25
  the early 1540s. And so by that point, for a
• 4:30
  few decades, Portugal has been building up its
• 4:32
  empire in Asia. It has this empire that stretches
• 4:35
  from East Africa all the way across to China.
• 4:39
  And the Chinese don't want to deal with the Portuguese
• 4:42
  as much as the Portuguese would like. They don't
• 4:44
  really want to trade. We'll get into why that
• 4:46
  is maybe a little bit later. Instead, the Portuguese
• 4:50
  are sort of dealing all the way around these
• 4:53
  seas, which are full of pirates in East Asia
• 4:57
  and Southeast Asia. Yeah, and in 1542 or 1543,
• 5:03
  we don't really know for sure, a Chinese ship
• 5:06
  arrives on this island called Tanegashima, which
• 5:10
  is just off the southern coast of Kyushu. So
• 5:12
  Japan's main southern island. And on this Chinese
• 5:15
  ship, there are these two Portuguese sailors,
• 5:18
  two or three, we think probably two. And as far
• 5:21
  as we know, they're the first Westerners ever
• 5:23
  to set foot on Japanese soil. So it's a huge
• 5:27
  moment when they get there. To back up just a
• 5:29
  little bit, you said the Chinese didn't really
• 5:31
  want to trade with the Portuguese. Why was that?
• 5:34
  So I think it's really interesting. You know,
• 5:35
  we were talking a moment ago about how in this
• 5:37
  period compared with the later period, you know,
• 5:39
  the modern era, Japan has a lot more of the influence,
• 5:43
  a lot more of the power in this relationship
• 5:45
  with Europe. And that comes partly from, I think,
• 5:48
  a Japanese view of the world, which it draws
• 5:51
  a little bit from China. So it's worth, you know,
• 5:54
  thinking maybe briefly about how China sees the
• 5:56
  world right in the 16th century. And I suppose
• 5:59
  viewers and listeners who... have a bit of a
• 6:02
  background in ancient Greece. Weirdly, the two
• 6:04
  compare quite well. So in ancient Greece and
• 6:07
  in China, the way they think about the world
• 6:08
  is in sort of concentric circles. So the people
• 6:11
  near you are civilized, right? They speak the
• 6:15
  right language. They behave well. They treat
• 6:17
  their families well. They treat their women well,
• 6:19
  if you're a man. And as you get further and further
• 6:22
  away, these people become stranger and more barbaric
• 6:26
  until once you get far enough away, they're not
• 6:29
  even human beings anymore. They're kind of weird,
• 6:31
  legendary creatures. Monsters, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 6:34
  So the ancient Greeks thought that way and the
• 6:36
  Chinese thought that way as well. And so they
• 6:39
  didn't have, this is Ming Dynasty China, they
• 6:43
  didn't have a great sense of let's get out into
• 6:46
  the world, have an adventure and see what's going
• 6:48
  on. For them, the seas around China were a kind
• 6:51
  of natural border. that they use for security
• 6:55
  rather than as a kind of adventure playground.
• 6:58
  You know, there are a few what's called the Ming
• 6:59
  voyages. They went as far as East Africa, which
• 7:01
  is remarkable. But for the most part, they weren't
• 7:04
  that interested. They thought more about security
• 7:08
  than about anything else. And in the Chinese
• 7:10
  sort of worldview, trade wasn't actually that
• 7:14
  important. Merchants, traders were quite low
• 7:17
  down the sort of pecking order. So for all sorts
• 7:20
  of reasons, they weren't really interested in
• 7:21
  getting abroad and trying to do massive amounts
• 7:24
  of trade. When the Portuguese arrived, they didn't
• 7:27
  know whether the Portuguese were sort of legitimate,
• 7:30
  decent, civilized people. They thought probably
• 7:32
  not because they looked like they were from far
• 7:34
  away. But also in recent centuries, China had
• 7:38
  been the victim of these extraordinary pirates.
• 7:41
  So, you know, when we think about pirates, or
• 7:44
  when I think about pirates anyway, I immediately
• 7:45
  imagine Johnny Depp, Pirates of the Caribbean.
• 7:48
  Jack Sparrow, yes. Jack Sparrow, exactly. Thank
• 7:50
  you. Yeah. You know, these kind of romantics
• 7:53
  swishing around in lovely clothes and having
• 7:55
  a kind of, I suppose, lots of mascara and a kind
• 7:58
  of poetical sense of... Doing a Keith Richards
• 7:59
  impersonation. Yeah, yeah. Basically looking
• 8:02
  like Keith Richards on a boat. Yeah. Whereas
• 8:06
  the pirates of... east asia in this period and
• 8:09
  we're thinking really from sort of 14th 15th
• 8:12
  into the early 16th centuries um could be extraordinarily
• 8:15
  cruel there are these stories of pirate gangs
• 8:19
  which were a mix of Japanese, Chinese and South
• 8:21
  Asian people sort of sharing the same boats.
• 8:24
  These huge, quite well -organized gangs who owned
• 8:27
  in some cases, you know, tens, even hundreds
• 8:29
  of vessels between them. And they would raid
• 8:31
  the Chinese coast. They would sort of storm onto
• 8:36
  the beaches with swords. These naginata, as they
• 8:40
  call them in Japan, the sort of poles with the
• 8:42
  blade on the end, all sorts of other weapons.
• 8:44
  And they would steal stuff. They would kill people.
• 8:47
  They could be. extraordinarily gruesome right
• 8:50
  in their in their violence and because of that
• 8:53
  when people that were unknown arrived on the
• 8:55
  Chinese shore the sense of them being illegitimate
• 8:59
  and dangerous and potentially pirates I think
• 9:02
  was really really quite powerful and so the Chinese
• 9:04
  had a for all sorts of reasons all the things
• 9:08
  we've been talking about a real fear and almost
• 9:11
  disgust of people like the Portuguese when they
• 9:14
  arrived so the Portuguese found that try as they
• 9:16
  might the Chinese weren't that interested in
• 9:19
  having much of a trading relationship with them
• 9:21
  and so instead the Portuguese actually became
• 9:25
  kind of semi -pirates themselves getting involved
• 9:28
  with some of these pirate gangs you know making
• 9:30
  their reputation even worse I think with the
• 9:33
  Chinese but because China was From the Portuguese
• 9:35
  point of view, going quite badly. When they stumbled
• 9:38
  across Japan in the early 1540s, it suddenly
• 9:43
  seemed like even more of a prospect. I suppose
• 9:46
  the one extra thing to say before we maybe talk
• 9:48
  about that great moment of encounter is that
• 9:50
  between China and Japan in this period, there
• 9:53
  wasn't much trade because the Chinese blamed
• 9:55
  the Japanese for... And because Japan was in
• 9:59
  quite a chaotic state, which we should definitely
• 10:01
  talk about in a minute, there was very little
• 10:03
  trade. And yet there was enormous demand. China
• 10:07
  had this huge demand for silver. It wanted as
• 10:10
  much of it as it could get. And Japan produced
• 10:13
  silver. Japan wanted as much silk as it could
• 10:16
  get. And China produced silk. So in theory, if
• 10:19
  you could set yourself up as a middleman. trading
• 10:22
  between China and Japan, you know, taking silver
• 10:24
  to China, getting silk back the other way, you
• 10:26
  could make an extraordinary amount of money.
• 10:29
  And this is what the Portuguese started to realize.
• 10:32
  And it's why Japan, I think, became so important
• 10:35
  for them. It's really interesting, this sort
• 10:40
  of inverse attitude to the European one that
• 10:42
  the Chinese had, because you said that they sailed
• 10:44
  to many different places. Yeah. But they're like,
• 10:47
  not really interested. I'm not really interested.
• 10:50
  This place is cool, but whatever. I got a better
• 10:52
  thing going on back home. But yeah, let's talk
• 10:55
  about the moment of the encounter between the
• 10:59
  Portuguese and the Japanese. What are some of
• 11:01
  the first things that the Portuguese noticed
• 11:03
  about the Japanese and vice versa? For example,
• 11:05
  what were they most impressed with, but also
• 11:09
  always more fun to talk about, repulsed by when
• 11:13
  they encountered each other, maybe? There's actually
• 11:16
  a really lovely record, a Japanese record of
• 11:18
  the first Japanese impressions of Europeans when
• 11:22
  they arrived. This is going to be good. Yeah.
• 11:24
  So they arrived, as we say, on this Chinese vessel,
• 11:28
  1542 or 1543. And the other important person
• 11:33
  on that vessel was a really interesting man called
• 11:36
  Wang Zhe. So a Chinese man who called himself.
• 11:40
  king of the pirates so you know we're talking
• 11:42
  about these these pirate conglomerates this man
• 11:45
  wang zhe was the big player um in east asia uh
• 11:49
  so you know fans of one piece now will probably
• 11:51
  know uh luffy and you know what is it he says
• 11:54
  king the pirates i'm going to become king of
• 11:56
  the pirates um in this era this guy really was
• 11:59
  king of the pirates and he arrives um with these
• 12:02
  portuguese these two portuguese individuals on
• 12:05
  the beach at tanagashima and wang zhe doesn't
• 12:08
  speak Japanese, but he, of course, can write
• 12:11
  Chinese characters. So a Chinese person communicating
• 12:14
  with a Japanese person, they can just about do
• 12:16
  it, right, with these Chinese characters. So
• 12:18
  he seems to be, on the basis of this Japanese
• 12:21
  record, he scratches in the sand of Tanegashima
• 12:24
  a kind of introduction to these two odd -looking
• 12:28
  foreigners. And I thought I'd just give you a
• 12:30
  couple of lines to give you a flavour of what
• 12:32
  he was saying about them. And I suppose he's
• 12:35
  saying it on the basis that he assumes that the
• 12:37
  Chinese and the Japanese are close enough culturally
• 12:39
  that they're going to have the same reaction
• 12:42
  to these odd looking foreigners. So this is what
• 12:45
  he says by way of introducing these two strange
• 12:48
  looking Portuguese. He says, when they drink,
• 12:50
  they don't use their cups properly. When they
• 12:53
  eat, they don't use chopsticks, but they eat
• 12:56
  with their hands. When they show their feelings,
• 12:59
  they do it without any self -control and they
• 13:02
  don't comprehend the principles that lie within
• 13:05
  written characters. They wander from place to
• 13:08
  place, bartering things which they have for those
• 13:11
  that they do not have. They are quite harmless,
• 13:15
  he concludes. And I think it's so interesting,
• 13:17
  right, is how they drink, how they eat, what
• 13:19
  their manners are. The fact that the Portuguese,
• 13:22
  he's already dealt with them enough to know that
• 13:24
  they are kind of... what we might call emotionally
• 13:28
  incontinent right because i think that you know
• 13:30
  you've been in japan for a bit some europeans
• 13:33
  or westerns living in japan sometimes say oh
• 13:35
  the japanese are quite reserved you don't know
• 13:36
  what they're thinking look at it from the other
• 13:39
  point of view the japanese point of view you
• 13:41
  know these people are constantly sort of weeping
• 13:43
  or shouting or getting angry or being boisterous
• 13:48
  they've basically got zero self -control and
• 13:51
  the fact that they can't read Chinese characters
• 13:55
  and they don't have access to that sophistication
• 13:58
  and the depth of thinking that goes into those
• 14:01
  characters means already that these are kind
• 14:05
  of a lesser people. They're fairly barbarous.
• 14:07
  And I suppose the other thing the Japanese noticed,
• 14:09
  and it's there in that last bit, you know, that
• 14:11
  they wander from place to place, bartering things
• 14:14
  that they have, things they don't have, right?
• 14:16
  In the European way of telling... this moment
• 14:19
  in history. And also, I suppose, of telling the
• 14:21
  kind of modern history as well is, you know,
• 14:23
  we manufactured all these amazing things. We
• 14:26
  had all these inventions. We took them around
• 14:28
  the world. We shared them. You know, we traded
• 14:30
  free trade. How wonderful. You know, even now,
• 14:33
  when we think about Iran and the Strait of Hormuz,
• 14:34
  the value for us of free trade, you know, unhindered,
• 14:39
  no tolls, et cetera, still seems like an obvious
• 14:41
  good, right? From the Chinese point of view and
• 14:45
  from the Japanese point of view. Once they knew
• 14:47
  that the Portuguese were from a very long way
• 14:49
  away, we can get into it a bit more later. They
• 14:51
  didn't really have a sense of Europe or where
• 14:54
  Europe might be. They'd heard of India, you know,
• 14:57
  because Buddhism in Japan, hugely important religion.
• 15:00
  So they know of India as the birthplace of the
• 15:02
  Buddha. That's about as far as their reliable
• 15:04
  geographical knowledge goes at this point. Never
• 15:08
  heard of Europe, but they knew it was a long
• 15:09
  way away. And what they thought. was really strange
• 15:12
  was that these men and the Portuguese traders
• 15:15
  you know almost always men have come from a long
• 15:18
  way away they've abandoned their families to
• 15:21
  do this and they're just swapping this thing
• 15:24
  for that thing so the Japanese inherit this Chinese
• 15:27
  sense of trade being really kind of low down
• 15:29
  because you're not making anything You're just
• 15:32
  taking that something else that someone else
• 15:33
  has made and you're swapping it for something
• 15:35
  else that someone else has made. You know, where's
• 15:38
  this kind of self -respect in that as a kind
• 15:40
  of as a way of doing business? It's a really
• 15:42
  interesting way of thinking. So they sort of
• 15:44
  started to conclude that these men must have
• 15:47
  got kicked out. of their countries. All their
• 15:50
  countries must be terrible because why have they
• 15:52
  come all the way around the world without their
• 15:54
  families, you know, doing this kind of humiliating
• 15:56
  way of earning money. So it's a kind of a bad
• 15:59
  start for the Portuguese. And later on, the Japanese
• 16:04
  think about the Portuguese in terms of physical
• 16:06
  features as well. I think one of the really important
• 16:09
  things is that the Portuguese don't wash nearly
• 16:12
  as often as the Japanese do. And if you think
• 16:14
  of a summer in Japan, right? I mean, we're hitting
• 16:18
  the summer now when we're speaking. If you don't
• 16:21
  wash for a week and you're hanging around in
• 16:24
  the heat of Tokyo, right, let alone Kyushu, further
• 16:27
  south with the kind of humidity and all the sweat
• 16:30
  and all the rest of it. think of the powerful
• 16:33
  effect on someone who bathes regularly of what
• 16:36
  you must look like and smell like and then the
• 16:38
  portuguese have these large eyes and kind of
• 16:40
  bulbous noses um so in all sorts of ways they
• 16:44
  gave off this sense of being yeah barbarous and
• 16:47
  if your view of the world is vaguely that the
• 16:49
  further these people are away from you the more
• 16:52
  barbarous and the almost creaturely they are,
• 16:55
  then it kind of makes sense. The Portuguese are
• 16:58
  fulfilling all these stereotypes of far -off,
• 17:00
  weird, almost animalistic people. So at the beginning,
• 17:04
  there was quite a lot of negativity going on,
• 17:07
  to put it quite mildly. That was amazing. So
• 17:15
  not exactly, as first impressions go, not exactly
• 17:19
  a ringing endorsement by this Chinese king of
• 17:21
  pirates. He was introducing them. Yeah. But what
• 17:26
  about vice versa? What did the Portuguese say
• 17:29
  or write down about the Japanese? So the Portuguese,
• 17:33
  I think, were a bit more mixed, actually, about
• 17:36
  the Japanese. I think for me, as a historian,
• 17:38
  the really interesting thing in this period is,
• 17:39
  yeah, after this encounter on Tanegashima, and
• 17:42
  we should talk in a minute about one of the huge
• 17:44
  elements of this encounter, which is guns. Because
• 17:48
  in this very first encounter, guns are involved
• 17:51
  and the chronicle that i just quoted from is
• 17:53
  literally called the chronicle of guns so this
• 17:55
  is really important element of it we'll definitely
• 17:57
  come back to um but for me as a historian one
• 17:59
  of the really important things about it what
• 18:01
  makes this era so rich is that yes you have lots
• 18:04
  of portuguese traders who start dealing not just
• 18:06
  on tanagashima but then on the island of kyushu
• 18:08
  generally it becomes a kind of gateway to japan
• 18:11
  and everyone's heard of nagasaki we can talk
• 18:13
  about that later as well but kyushu becomes hugely
• 18:16
  important for the portuguese but it isn't just
• 18:18
  traders Because at this point, there are Jesuit
• 18:22
  missionaries as well coming across from Europe
• 18:25
  and thinking, you know, if you think back in
• 18:28
  Europe in the 16th century, you have the Protestant
• 18:29
  Reformation, Martin Luther, et cetera, Catholicism
• 18:32
  under threat. And so the Jesuits come out to
• 18:36
  Asia hoping to turn Asia not just Christian,
• 18:39
  but Catholic Christian as a way of boosting themselves
• 18:43
  back in Europe, I think, against the Protestants
• 18:45
  and showing. Protestants are quite parochial.
• 18:47
  Catholic Church is truly global. And these missionaries
• 18:51
  who come out are these highly educated men from
• 18:54
  places like Italy, Spain, Portugal. And they
• 18:58
  realize about the Japanese that they are cultured.
• 19:01
  They're sophisticated. If you want to persuade
• 19:04
  them that Christianity might be true, you first
• 19:07
  got to learn what makes them tick. In terms of
• 19:10
  religion, spirituality, like politics, food,
• 19:12
  dress, everything. You've got to understand these
• 19:14
  people if you've got even a tiny hope of converting
• 19:17
  them. And so we end up from probably the second
• 19:20
  half of the 1500s onwards with really detailed
• 19:23
  thoughts, European thoughts about who the Japanese
• 19:27
  are, because the Jesuits were trying to really
• 19:29
  get under their skin. So to give you a kind of
• 19:32
  first impression, which is a sort of mix of traders
• 19:34
  and some of the first missionaries. They thought
• 19:39
  that Japanese food, weirdly, given how much we
• 19:41
  love it, right, as Westerners, they thought the
• 19:43
  Japanese food was quite poor. They were really
• 19:45
  disappointed. Japanese didn't eat much meat.
• 19:48
  And to not eat much meat back in Europe or large
• 19:52
  parts of Europe was associated with poverty because
• 19:54
  you couldn't afford it. So the fact that Japanese
• 19:56
  didn't eat much meat was really disappointing.
• 20:00
  Some parts of Japan in this period were devastated
• 20:02
  by a civil war, which we'll definitely talk about
• 20:04
  later. And so some people were eating. quite
• 20:08
  poorly. So sort of basic staples, grasses, millet,
• 20:14
  maybe a little bit of rice, these sorts of things.
• 20:16
  So it seemed to some of the early Portuguese
• 20:18
  that this is quite a poor country. Even when
• 20:20
  they got to know the food better, they weren't
• 20:23
  terribly impressed with fish. They couldn't understand
• 20:26
  the drinking of tea. Why would you drink what
• 20:30
  seemed to them to be hot water? all year round,
• 20:32
  you know, even in these blazingly hot Kyushu
• 20:34
  summers. So that seemed quite strange to them.
• 20:37
  There's all these comments where it's a real
• 20:40
  hardship living in Japan, they say, because we
• 20:42
  can't eat properly. You know, the food is disgusting.
• 20:45
  A city like Nagasaki grows partly because you
• 20:48
  can get European food there. So that's one thing.
• 20:50
  They didn't like the food much. They thought
• 20:52
  the people were lovely. And I think this does
• 20:54
  ring bells. I mean, tell me what you think of
• 20:56
  someone who's living in Japan now, but they found
• 20:58
  people respectful. They thought there was a good
• 21:03
  sense of order and discipline. They thought it
• 21:07
  was interesting and sometimes a bit worrying
• 21:09
  the way justice worked. So that, for example,
• 21:12
  if you and I are living in Japan right in the
• 21:15
  mid 16th century and God forbid you sleep with
• 21:19
  my wife, I can just kill you on the spot. Not
• 21:22
  I can kill you on the spot, but I would be more
• 21:24
  or less required by natural justice to take care
• 21:27
  of you myself. Sorry to give you that example,
• 21:30
  but this is one of the ones that came up from
• 21:31
  the Portuguese. They were really interested.
• 21:33
  So, you know, I wouldn't call in the local authority
• 21:35
  and say, this man's done X, Y and Z. Can you
• 21:37
  please bring him to justice? I take care of it
• 21:40
  myself. So Japan didn't have obviously a police
• 21:42
  force, didn't have prisons because justice is
• 21:44
  kind of immediate and very personal. So they
• 21:48
  were quite impressed with that. I suppose the
• 21:50
  other thing that struck them. in this era because
• 21:53
  it's this chaotic civil war era in japan is how
• 21:56
  easily human life was taken you know we're thinking
• 22:00
  now about the samurai um we're thinking about
• 22:04
  the violence the scale of some of the battles
• 22:07
  that occurred and even for just that you know
• 22:09
  the giving of relatively minor offense certainly
• 22:12
  by someone who's lower down the pecking order
• 22:13
  to someone who's higher up the fact that you
• 22:15
  would just kill them, chop their head off, stab
• 22:18
  them or do whatever with them. Again, really
• 22:21
  struck the Portuguese. So kind of the flip side
• 22:23
  of an ordered society is one where violence features,
• 22:26
  they thought, in quite a big way. So the other
• 22:30
  thing that stood out for them is for Europeans
• 22:34
  of this period, homosexuality, homosexual sex
• 22:37
  especially, was considered completely wrong,
• 22:40
  completely beyond the pale. And yet between men,
• 22:43
  boys, whether you're samurai or whether you're
• 22:45
  living in a Buddhist institution, it's considered
• 22:48
  fairly normal and not particularly worthy of
• 22:51
  conversation. But for the Europeans, they found
• 22:53
  that quite strange. So you often find missionaries
• 22:56
  saying, you know, here's a country that seems
• 22:58
  like it's ready for the gospel because people
• 23:00
  are, as I say, kind of polite, respectful, well
• 23:02
  -behaved, also quite curious about the outside
• 23:05
  world to some extent. And yet they have these
• 23:07
  terrible vices. of violence and homosexual sex.
• 23:11
  So it was kind of, do we understand these people
• 23:13
  or don't we? Which I think a lot of Westerners
• 23:16
  probably up until now or late 20th century probably
• 23:20
  had that feeling. You know, there are parts about
• 23:23
  Japan that we love and we feel like we intuitively
• 23:25
  understand and why don't we have that back home?
• 23:28
  And then other parts where I think, I'm not sure
• 23:30
  I understand actually what makes people tick
• 23:32
  and how this society works. I mean, I know plenty
• 23:35
  of people kind of anecdotally who spend time
• 23:37
  in Japan now. You go through a phase of loving
• 23:40
  it. Then you go through a phase of being extraordinarily
• 23:42
  frustrated with this, that or the other. And
• 23:45
  it kind of goes in waves. And you can see missionaries
• 23:48
  writing, traders writing who are there for a
• 23:50
  while. They go in these waves as well, trying
• 23:53
  to understand what's going on in Japan. It's
• 23:56
  really fascinating to watch that process, I think.
• 23:59
  Plus a change. Yeah, exactly. Plus a change,
• 24:02
  yeah. I was thinking about when you said... how
• 24:06
  they commented on europeans appearance and the
• 24:09
  japanese are definitely very polite and lovely
• 24:11
  people but they do regularly comment on stuff
• 24:14
  that we in the West probably would never say.
• 24:17
  For example, I have a friend who once introduced
• 24:20
  me because I gained a little bit of weight. And
• 24:24
  he says, this is Matty. And he, as you can all
• 24:26
  see, he likes to eat. And he thought that's a
• 24:30
  perfectly reasonable and polite introduction.
• 24:34
  They're going to say, oh, what a big nose. But
• 24:36
  not in a bad way or anything. Just like... It's
• 24:41
  an honest, honest surprise. Just as an observation.
• 24:45
  Observation. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think years
• 24:47
  ago, Bill Gates got upset. People can Google
• 24:50
  this in case I'm misremembering it, but Bill
• 24:52
  Gates got upset because he was in Japan and there
• 24:54
  was a lot of commentary about his socks. And
• 24:57
  he said, look, I'm, you know, I'm this massively
• 24:59
  important tech leader, pioneer. And yet all you
• 25:02
  want to talk about, all the media wants to talk
• 25:04
  about the color or shape or fabric of my socks.
• 25:07
  I think he was quite insulted. But yeah, that
• 25:09
  sense of sort of fairly innocent observation
• 25:11
  is really quite a big thing. But I mean, how
• 25:14
  do you find it? Do you go through phases of thinking
• 25:17
  like you understand where you are and then actually
• 25:19
  I'm out of my depth? Or is it more a linear getting
• 25:22
  used to it? No, no, no. It does come in waves.
• 25:25
  But I think it's a bit of an inverse because
• 25:27
  when I moved to Japan without any real plan or
• 25:31
  expectation or even a real connection to the
• 25:34
  place. I never watched anime. I didn't learn
• 25:35
  Japanese. I didn't have a job waiting for me.
• 25:37
  It was just sort of like, you know, like Bilbo
• 25:40
  says in Lord of the Rings. I think it's quite
• 25:42
  time for another adventure. Oh, good for you.
• 25:44
  And I didn't think about it. So I was terribly...
• 25:47
  sad in the first couple of months because it
• 25:50
  was really hard to make a connection and even
• 25:54
  though I didn't have any expectations it's just
• 25:56
  it's such a different culture and you can't really
• 25:59
  get ready for that and then it slowly got better
• 26:02
  and better as I started to learn Japanese and
• 26:04
  make friends and so forth so I think it's the
• 26:06
  opposite for me okay well hopefully but I do
• 26:09
  meet a lot of foreigners that have crazy expectations
• 26:13
  before they move at least they tell me And they're
• 26:17
  obsessed with Japan. And then they come over
• 26:19
  and they see that bad stuff happens here just
• 26:22
  as well. Yeah. I suppose if you do encounter
• 26:24
  Japan mainly through sort of pop culture, et
• 26:27
  cetera, you get a rather idealized view of it.
• 26:30
  But I think it's hilarious. You studied here.
• 26:33
  What was your experience? Yeah, I lived in Japan
• 26:36
  for a bit. I think I had this sort of roller
• 26:38
  coaster experience where you feel like you're
• 26:41
  getting to understand the place. The language
• 26:43
  skills are getting better. And then, you know,
• 26:47
  one day you walk into McDonald's and you try
• 26:49
  and order something and people reply to you in
• 26:51
  English. You think, can I not even order a burger
• 26:53
  in Japanese? Is that how bad it is? I think it
• 26:56
  may be that they were just excited to speak to
• 26:57
  a non -Japanese and maybe try out some English.
• 26:59
  So it's probably fine. But no, I did find it
• 27:02
  was a little bit of a little bit of a roller
• 27:04
  coaster. And it is weird because you do then
• 27:06
  find traders and missionaries, you know, nearly
• 27:09
  500 years ago, but some things quite similar
• 27:12
  where they. They sort of say, in the end, we
• 27:15
  will never understand what's in their hearts.
• 27:18
  And it cuts the other way. It goes the other
• 27:20
  way. Obviously, we know we'll get in later in
• 27:23
  terms of giving people a general sense of the
• 27:25
  narrative of what happened. But I mean, everybody
• 27:26
  knows because you said at the beginning, you
• 27:29
  know, Japan closes itself off for 200, 250 years,
• 27:32
  sort of after the period that we're about to
• 27:34
  be talking about. And one of the reasons there
• 27:36
  is that for the Japanese, too, they felt we don't
• 27:39
  really get. the europeans all the europeans have
• 27:42
  only ultimately evil designs on our country you
• 27:47
  know they want something from us they're not
• 27:50
  really interested in a kind of open you know
• 27:53
  free -flowing relationship so this sense of not
• 27:57
  understanding the other half of an encounter
• 28:00
  Definitely, I think it cut both ways in this
• 28:02
  period, for sure. Wow. Even though they say that
• 28:04
  Europeans kind of have their hearts on a sleeve
• 28:07
  and they're showing their emotions too much,
• 28:09
  they still don't understand them. That's really
• 28:10
  fascinating. Yeah, that's a really good point.
• 28:14
  That's an excellent point. Yeah, because for
• 28:16
  sort of day -to -day emotions, yeah, the Europeans
• 28:19
  were thought to... Yeah, show their heart and
• 28:21
  their sleeve almost to an embarrassing extent.
• 28:23
  And yet I think the Jesuits in particular, the
• 28:25
  one big suspicion the Japanese always had was,
• 28:29
  when I say the Japanese in this case, I mean
• 28:31
  particularly some of their senior samurai leaders
• 28:33
  who worried about the security of the country,
• 28:35
  was kind of coming back to that thing earlier
• 28:37
  on. You know how we were saying that for traders
• 28:40
  to come halfway around the world simply to swap...
• 28:42
  article a for article b seemed completely mad
• 28:45
  to the japanese and these people must be really
• 28:47
  lowly or they get kicked out of their countries
• 28:49
  or their countries are rubbish and that's why
• 28:50
  they left similar sort of thing went alongside
• 28:53
  the missionaries i think is well why would you
• 28:55
  go to the other side of the world to spread your
• 28:59
  religion to another place where in that other
• 29:01
  place the gods are already there this is the
• 29:04
  view the japanese have of of the shinto and the
• 29:06
  buddhist gods being so deeply compatible that
• 29:09
  it's essentially the same entities showing different
• 29:13
  faces. So the idea that you would travel halfway
• 29:16
  around the world where presumably you knew the
• 29:18
  gods would already be to preach your god or your
• 29:22
  gods that also seemed a bit strange and a bit
• 29:25
  crazy. So Japan's leaders thought that it can't
• 29:28
  just be about that. They must have some other
• 29:31
  motive. And the more that they got to hear about
• 29:33
  the military power of the Portuguese and the
• 29:36
  fact that the Portuguese were the colonial power
• 29:38
  in parts of India and parts of the rest of Asia
• 29:42
  as well, and then the Spanish after that in the
• 29:45
  Philippines, the more they thought, actually,
• 29:47
  what these Europeans really want is conquest.
• 29:51
  So they're softening up the population by preaching
• 29:54
  Christianity. cultivating the loyalty of Japanese
• 29:58
  Christians so that at some point the Portuguese
• 30:02
  or more likely the Spanish are going to arrive
• 30:03
  with ships, with an army. Japanese Christians
• 30:06
  will rise up and that'll be the end of Japan.
• 30:10
  So that deep mistrust. Yeah. Say what you will.
• 30:13
  The logic is sound. Oh, absolutely. I mean, plenty
• 30:17
  of people around the world, they talk about the
• 30:19
  Bible and the sword, right? First comes the Bible.
• 30:22
  And then later on comes the sword. This cultural
• 30:24
  softening up happens. And then, yeah, after that
• 30:27
  full colonization. You referenced it a couple
• 30:31
  of times before. The Westerners come to Japan
• 30:33
  at a particularly convenient time for them. And
• 30:36
  that's the so -called Sengoku Jidai, right? The
• 30:39
  age of the country at war. And it's perhaps the
• 30:41
  era with which, like you already said, we associate
• 30:44
  historical Japan in the West the most. The samurai
• 30:47
  clans beating the living daylights out of each
• 30:50
  other, vying for the supreme military ruler position
• 30:55
  or shogun. And I can totally see these Western
• 30:59
  traders rubbing their greasy palms together,
• 31:02
  thinking, boys, we're going to make a pretty
• 31:03
  buck selling guns in this place, right? Yeah.
• 31:06
  Oh, my goodness. Absolutely. So I suppose that
• 31:08
  probably the most famous figure, the most famous
• 31:10
  missionary to go to Japan was Francis Xavier.
• 31:13
  And he tried to get, he did get all the way to
• 31:16
  Kyoto. He might be the first Westerner ever to
• 31:18
  go to Kyoto. So this is in the right at the end
• 31:22
  of the 1540s or right at the beginning of the
• 31:24
  1550s. He goes there, doesn't get to meet the
• 31:27
  emperor because he's dressed badly, doesn't have
• 31:29
  any gifts. He doesn't know the first thing, you
• 31:32
  know, about how to dress for a meeting, as it
• 31:34
  were, in Japan. You know, because back in Europe,
• 31:36
  the Jesuits would wear sort of sackcloth. look
• 31:40
  deliberately poor as a sign of spiritual commitment,
• 31:43
  right? But in Japan, that goes down badly when
• 31:45
  you're meeting these really top leaders. So anyway,
• 31:47
  he doesn't get to meet the emperor, but he does
• 31:49
  get a really useful sense of the politics of
• 31:51
  the country, which is that the emperor doesn't
• 31:54
  have any power anyway. So he's not really worth
• 31:57
  dealing with. So gradually the Europeans realize
• 32:00
  that Japan is in as what you say, the Sengoku
• 32:02
  period, which basically means that power in Japan
• 32:05
  has broken down. And it's... kind of a patchwork
• 32:09
  quilt of competing feudal domains. These territories
• 32:14
  where the warlord who rules that territory is
• 32:17
  in complete control of everything in that territory.
• 32:20
  The daimyo. The daimyo, yeah. They're fighting
• 32:24
  each other to expand their territory, fighting
• 32:26
  or spying or doing marriage alliances. So it's
• 32:29
  an era of sort of enormous competition. One of
• 32:32
  the reasons the Portuguese do so well in Japan,
• 32:35
  particularly in Kyushu, the southern main island,
• 32:37
  which they kind of make their base, is they can
• 32:40
  offer warlords who are competing with one another
• 32:43
  in this period two things that they really, really
• 32:46
  need. One is money, because if you use a warlord's
• 32:51
  port... um for your great ship these great portuguese
• 32:54
  carrots that go backwards and forwards between
• 32:56
  china and japan they also of course go to places
• 32:59
  like india and even back to europe but in particular
• 33:01
  this trade right japanese silver for chinese
• 33:04
  silk um if they use a particular warlord's port
• 33:07
  for this then the warlord can charge serious
• 33:10
  tax right on their goods so it's an enormous
• 33:13
  amount of money that can then buy weapons armor
• 33:16
  feed armies etc so That's one thing the Portuguese
• 33:20
  offer. The other thing they offer is weapons,
• 33:23
  right, is guns. So I thought, you know, we talked
• 33:26
  about that first meeting on Tanegashima, right,
• 33:29
  1542, 1543. And I read from that little chronicle
• 33:33
  that gives that first view of the Portuguese.
• 33:37
  Let me just give you a couple more lines from
• 33:39
  the same chronicle where it's describing something
• 33:43
  else. And I think people will get quite quickly,
• 33:45
  right, what it's describing. two to three feet
• 33:50
  in length its body was hollow within but solid
• 33:54
  without it was heavy on its side was a hole through
• 33:59
  which fire could pass its form had no comparison
• 34:03
  among things its function was as follows one
• 34:06
  placed mysterious powder within and added a small
• 34:10
  round pellet of lead first one placed a small
• 34:14
  target on a stone bank and taking the object
• 34:17
  in hand positioned one's body narrowed one's
• 34:20
  eyes and from the small hole released fire when
• 34:25
  it discharged it blazed like lightning when it
• 34:28
  thundered no one who heard it could bear to keep
• 34:30
  their ears uncovered when this object discharged
• 34:33
  once it could destroy a whole mountain of silver
• 34:38
  or pierce an iron wall So this first sense of
• 34:42
  what a Portuguese arquebus could do. You know,
• 34:45
  think about the wars in Japan that are happening
• 34:48
  in this period. It's bow and arrow. It's swords.
• 34:51
  It's the naginata we talked about earlier on
• 34:53
  this pole with a kind of blade on the end. And
• 34:57
  it's an era when you have more and more. peasants
• 35:00
  being conscripted um to fight in these armies
• 35:03
  you know back in the day centuries before it
• 35:05
  would mostly be mounted warriors fighting each
• 35:08
  other and they'd be fairly small scale battles
• 35:10
  right um now that you're fighting for territory
• 35:13
  you've got to have much larger armies and yeah
• 35:16
  you've got peasants who are equipped and lightly
• 35:18
  armored if you try to train a peasant how to
• 35:22
  fire a bow and arrow accurately it's going to
• 35:25
  take ages to get that right if you managed to,
• 35:30
  as the Japanese do, copy and innovate with these
• 35:33
  Portuguese firearms, put it in the hands of a
• 35:35
  peasant, point it, press the trigger, and then
• 35:39
  refill it. You can train someone to do that in
• 35:41
  an hour. And so these firearms start to spread
• 35:45
  bit by bit across Japan, completely changing
• 35:48
  what a battle looks like in this period. And
• 35:51
  if you're a warlord in somewhere like Kyushu,
• 35:53
  and you're seeking the advantage, yes, you need
• 35:55
  that wealth. from the Portuguese but also you
• 35:58
  need a large shipment either of guns or gunpowder
• 36:02
  or lead or the ingredients that go into gunpowder
• 36:04
  so the Portuguese become really important I think
• 36:08
  for supplying these weapons and ammunition as
• 36:11
  well and it gives the missionaries a kind of
• 36:13
  foothold because the missionaries are really
• 36:15
  quite close to the traders and they'll say to
• 36:18
  one of the warlords look if you let us preach
• 36:20
  Christianity in your domain then we will persuade
• 36:24
  our merchant friends to come and use your port
• 36:26
  and pay you the tax. And so this kind of nice
• 36:30
  little relationship between the missionaries
• 36:31
  and the traders gets going and it helps Christianity
• 36:34
  to spread really fast. At some points in this
• 36:37
  period, in some areas of Kyushu, 50 % of the
• 36:41
  population are Christian. So it's this huge cultural
• 36:45
  shift from Japan built off the back of this need
• 36:48
  of warlords, I think. So some people who criticize
• 36:50
  what Europe does in this period in places like
• 36:53
  Japan, also in places like India, they'll say
• 36:55
  it's only when a country is divided against itself,
• 36:58
  like Japan is in the Sengoku era, that these
• 37:01
  sort of European... parasites or troublemakers
• 37:05
  can come along and sort of take advantage of
• 37:08
  us. So if you want the negative view, that's
• 37:10
  certainly how some in Japan saw what the Portuguese
• 37:13
  were up to. And how are the Japanese taking the
• 37:17
  fact that these foreigners are making serious
• 37:20
  inroads when it comes to altering the religious
• 37:23
  makeup of the country? So it's a really interesting
• 37:26
  one. So people in Japan take different views
• 37:29
  of this. It's probably worth, I think, kind of
• 37:31
  the spine of this period. Getting that in place,
• 37:34
  which isn't, I think a lot of people will have
• 37:36
  heard of at least one or two of these characters.
• 37:38
  There are three legendary warlords who appear
• 37:42
  one after the other in this period, who are steadily...
• 37:44
  The unifiers. The three unifiers. It's exactly
• 37:47
  that. It's steadily building up their territories
• 37:49
  and putting Japan back together, basically bit
• 37:51
  by bit. So you've got Oda Nobunaga, followed
• 37:54
  by Hideyoshi. followed by Tokugawa Ieyasu. And
• 37:58
  it's Tokugawa Ieyasu who found the dynasty that
• 38:01
  rules Japan for two and a half centuries. Kind
• 38:04
  of takes us to our previous conversation, I suppose.
• 38:07
  And each of those have a sort of different view,
• 38:10
  I think. For Oda Nobunaga, he was quite friendly
• 38:13
  with the Portuguese, with the missionaries. And
• 38:17
  I think it goes back to what we're saying at
• 38:18
  the beginning, which is that really compared
• 38:20
  with the modern era, for this period, 16th century,
• 38:24
  Europe isn't a huge threat to Japan. So you've
• 38:28
  only ever got a handful of traders and a handful
• 38:32
  of missionaries doing business in Japan. There's
• 38:36
  no sense of a European army or a huge fleet of
• 38:39
  European ships imminently coming for Japan. So
• 38:42
  people like Oda Nobunaga are, I think, fairly
• 38:44
  relaxed about Europeans. But one thing he really
• 38:47
  likes about the Europeans is that they share
• 38:50
  a common enemy. So the big religious force in
• 38:53
  this period in Japan is Buddhism. And in this
• 38:56
  period, some of your viewers probably know this,
• 38:58
  but Buddhism isn't just a religion. It's also
• 39:01
  a huge landowner. It has its own armies, different
• 39:06
  Buddhist sects. Some of them anyway have their
• 39:08
  own armies. They're a real political force. And
• 39:11
  Oda Nobunaga, who is struggling enough with kind
• 39:14
  of secular warlords, absolutely hates the idea
• 39:16
  that some of these Buddhist organizations might
• 39:19
  also challenge him. and challenge his power.
• 39:22
  So he's often at war with Buddhists. And the
• 39:25
  fact that these missionaries come along who have
• 39:27
  a kind of deep philosophical criticism of Buddhism
• 39:31
  and also hate Buddhists and are also trying to
• 39:33
  draw people away from Buddhism, you know, because
• 39:36
  most of the money that these temples have are
• 39:39
  from parishioners, from people who pay their
• 39:42
  dues, right, in one way or another, or their
• 39:44
  peasants who are on Buddhist land. The more that
• 39:47
  the missionaries can chip away against Buddhism,
• 39:49
  the happier Oda Nobunaga is going to be. So I
• 39:52
  think he's fairly happy to see that happening.
• 39:54
  He's also famous for not really believing in
• 39:57
  anything in terms of the supernatural, right?
• 40:01
  In fact, one of the loveliest descriptions we
• 40:03
  have of him is by a Portuguese missionary. And
• 40:06
  there's one moment where Oda Nobunaga has just
• 40:09
  reached this milestone in his career. He's taken
• 40:12
  Kyoto. the capital city, you know, a great symbolic
• 40:15
  milestone for him. And he's sitting on a drawbridge
• 40:18
  having this massive new castle built. And he
• 40:22
  sits on the drawbridge with one of the missionaries
• 40:24
  and they're kind of chatting for two or three
• 40:25
  hours. Oda Nobunaga is really interested in where
• 40:28
  India is, how life works there and what Europe
• 40:32
  might be like, you know, really kind of curious
• 40:33
  spirit he seems to have been. But the Portuguese
• 40:37
  missionary, this young guy called Luis Froix,
• 40:39
  who's talking to him, later writes this portrait
• 40:41
  of a man who doesn't have much time or respect
• 40:46
  for other ordinary human beings because he's
• 40:49
  got such a high sense of who he is. And even
• 40:51
  really high ranking samurai sort of talk to them
• 40:54
  over his shoulder in a kind of offhand way. He
• 40:57
  was rumored when his father died, the Buddhist
• 41:01
  priest had prayed for his father unsuccessfully
• 41:03
  because he died. rumoured to have had them placed
• 41:06
  in a temple surrounded by Oda Nobunaga's men
• 41:10
  holding guns and had them shot to death. So clearly
• 41:14
  not worried about the kind of repercussions of
• 41:16
  treating Buddhists like that. Doesn't believe
• 41:18
  in any kind of gods. The only thing he really
• 41:19
  believes in is his destiny and his security,
• 41:22
  because he has these horse guards, security force
• 41:24
  always surrounding him. So the incredibly impressive
• 41:27
  figure, not really, as I say, fearful of any
• 41:29
  kind of afterlife consequences. And so for him,
• 41:32
  whatever Japanese people want to believe, as
• 41:35
  long as they're not a security threat to him,
• 41:37
  then he doesn't really care. He's fine with that.
• 41:41
  But the other two take a really different view,
• 41:43
  I think, of Christianity. We can either go there
• 41:46
  now or later, depending on what you'd be interested
• 41:48
  in talking about. No, maybe let's go now. It's
• 41:50
  also like an interesting contrast because I always
• 41:52
  thought that Odo Nobunaga was the scariest of
• 41:55
  the three because of his famous brutality when
• 41:58
  dealing with the Buddhist monasteries and also
• 42:02
  with the ninjas or whatever happened there. But
• 42:05
  here he seems quite chill. As far as medieval
• 42:10
  Japan goes, of course. He could be, I think,
• 42:13
  a really nice man if he was prepared to give
• 42:17
  you some time. So he had this amazing castle,
• 42:19
  Gifu Castle. where he invited Luís Freixo to
• 42:24
  come and stay and he toured him around the castle
• 42:26
  and he served Luís Freixo, this Portuguese missionary,
• 42:29
  his food, you know, which for someone of Oranobanaga
• 42:33
  status to serve you your food himself is this
• 42:35
  incredible honour. And he sort of sees Luís Freixo
• 42:38
  off at the castle gate and he said... Don't worry
• 42:40
  about anything. I've got your back. People are
• 42:43
  going to let you do what you want to do because
• 42:44
  otherwise they're going to answer to me. So to
• 42:46
  have someone like that in your corner is amazing.
• 42:49
  And the missionaries were delighted to have him
• 42:51
  on side. But as you say, there's this other side,
• 42:53
  this extraordinary brutality. When he goes to
• 42:56
  war with Buddhists, he particularly hates the
• 42:59
  Buddhists. I think that comes across fairly strongly.
• 43:02
  And it's not a hatred of Buddhism as a religion.
• 43:05
  It's a hatred of these rival power centers. Right.
• 43:09
  So when he goes up Mount Hiei, the sort of center
• 43:14
  of the Tendai sect, the most powerful sect, he
• 43:17
  sends men up there and he just kills everybody.
• 43:20
  So, of course, he kills the Buddhist warriors,
• 43:22
  but also ordinary men, women and children, completely
• 43:26
  indiscriminate. That's quite well attested. And
• 43:28
  then he just burns everything. One account of
• 43:31
  this attack that he makes says something like
• 43:33
  it was a. a wasteland across which only badgers
• 43:36
  and foxes now moved. Something like that gives
• 43:39
  you the sense of complete desolation right after
• 43:41
  you've been there. There are other Buddhist groups,
• 43:44
  they kind of have what you might call pop -up
• 43:46
  armies. The Jodo Shinshu faith, the true pure
• 43:50
  land, if people who are fans of Japanese culture
• 43:52
  will probably know the true pure land, Shinran
• 43:54
  is its founder. What annoyed, more than annoyed,
• 43:57
  what enraged Nobunaga about these Buddhists was...
• 44:02
  that the patriarch lives in what is now Osaka,
• 44:05
  but he can send messages out to his faithful
• 44:07
  across Japan. And he'll say, and he does say,
• 44:11
  Oda Nobunaga is now our enemy. Take up arms against
• 44:15
  him. And these... parishes, these communities
• 44:18
  will arm themselves, feed themselves, organize
• 44:21
  themselves, rise up against Oda Nobunaga. And
• 44:24
  some of them in battle, they'll carry a piece
• 44:26
  of paper or fabric that has the words of the
• 44:29
  Nembutsu on it, which is basically entrusting
• 44:32
  yourself to Amida Buddha. So you've got armies
• 44:34
  that will come out of nowhere, feed and clothe
• 44:37
  themselves, don't fear death, are almost seeking
• 44:41
  although that's not really a concept that exists
• 44:43
  in Japan in this period, but almost seeking martyrdom.
• 44:46
  You imagine how difficult they are to fight and
• 44:48
  they know their own terrain. And so Nobunaga
• 44:51
  is extremely brutal with these people. He absolutely
• 44:53
  hates it. So you can sort of see how he at least
• 44:57
  makes common cause with Christians. So that I
• 45:01
  think works out quite well. I think where it
• 45:03
  changes is with Hideyoshi. So Hideyoshi... Go
• 45:08
  on, yeah. So Tomohideyoshi, he was the... the
• 45:11
  aid of Oda Nobunaga. And then he rose up the
• 45:13
  ranks, right? That's right. Yeah, thank you.
• 45:15
  So he starts out more or less with literally
• 45:17
  carrying Nobunaga's sandals. He's a peasant,
• 45:19
  which sounds quite dismissive. I mean, it kind
• 45:22
  of is if you're a samurai. He's a mere peasant.
• 45:26
  And he rises up the ranks as this amazing general.
• 45:29
  And there is legends told about his life and
• 45:31
  his cunning in battle. But clearly some of it
• 45:34
  was real. Because when Nobunaga is... killed
• 45:37
  in the early 1580s, sort of treason on behalf
• 45:40
  of one of his other generals, Hideyoshi manages,
• 45:43
  he moves very quickly and very effectively to
• 45:46
  take over what Nobunaga has gained. And then
• 45:49
  Hideyoshi massively expands. He becomes, I think
• 45:52
  you could say by the early 1590s, Hideyoshi is
• 45:56
  basically the dictator. of japan he controls
• 45:59
  all of what we would now consider to be japan
• 46:02
  so sorry what was considered to be japan then
• 46:05
  i should say hokkaido the island of hokkaido
• 46:07
  isn't really thought about as being part of japan
• 46:09
  in the 16th century so it's honshu the main island
• 46:12
  kyushu the main southern island and then uh shikoku
• 46:15
  as well he controls all of that um but when he
• 46:18
  gets to kyushu because it's under hirayoshi that
• 46:21
  kyushu becomes part of this kind of growing,
• 46:24
  reunified Japan. When he gets there, he hears
• 46:27
  these awful stories, some of which are true,
• 46:29
  that because of Christian influence on Kyushu,
• 46:33
  temples and shrines have been either burned down
• 46:35
  or dismantled and the wood has been used to build
• 46:38
  churches instead. enormous desecration of Shinto
• 46:43
  and Buddhist culture that some Japanese women
• 46:48
  and others have been taken as slaves and shipped
• 46:51
  off to China or even as far away as Europe. And
• 46:53
  this did happen. And the Jesuits, to some extent,
• 46:56
  were complicit. They weren't especially interested
• 46:58
  in slavery themselves, but their complicity to
• 47:01
  some degree can't really be denied, I don't think.
• 47:06
  absolutely furious and he says Japan is the land
• 47:10
  of the gods and we do not want these foreign
• 47:13
  gods we don't want these foreign missionaries
• 47:16
  here and he briefly tries to get rid of them
• 47:20
  the Christians and the missionaries trying to
• 47:21
  kind of push them out of Japan in the end he
• 47:23
  sort of softens his stance a little bit because
• 47:25
  he realizes he needs these traders what's really
• 47:28
  interesting about Hideyoshi is that he hates
• 47:30
  Christianity but he loves European fashion And
• 47:33
  a lot of European fashion is kind of Christian
• 47:35
  in influence because they'll be wearing crucifixes.
• 47:39
  I think it's kind of like now a lot of people
• 47:41
  will wear crucifixes as a fashion statement,
• 47:42
  not as a religious one. I think you see it quite
• 47:44
  a lot in Japan, actually, use of a crucifix.
• 47:46
  You do, don't you? They'll be wearing rosaries,
• 47:49
  reliquaries, little daggers, hats, capes. There's
• 47:55
  a real boom for European fashion amongst Japan's
• 47:59
  elites. I think a lot of it gets going in the
• 48:02
  early 1590s. Once Kyushu is under Hideyoshi's
• 48:05
  control, he launches these invasions of Korea,
• 48:08
  which is probably too far outside of our conversation,
• 48:11
  but he launches them from Kyushu. So lots of
• 48:14
  Japan's warlords who are serving Hideyoshi now
• 48:17
  come down to Kyushu to get ready for the invasion.
• 48:20
  And Nagasaki is nearby this great center of kind
• 48:24
  of European culture. And they all go on a mini
• 48:26
  holiday to Nagasaki to have a look. And they
• 48:28
  eat European food and they see European fashions
• 48:30
  and they go crazy for all these European fashions.
• 48:33
  Maybe the other part of it is these. Baggy trousers.
• 48:35
  If people want to get a look at it, you could
• 48:37
  maybe even put it up as part of a video. These
• 48:40
  Japanese screens that were painted, especially
• 48:43
  by painters of what's called the Kano school
• 48:44
  done in gorgeous gold leaf and color. You can
• 48:47
  see Portuguese people depicted in their fashions.
• 48:51
  And it's mainly the hats and the massive baggy
• 48:54
  trousers and capes that people are going to notice.
• 48:56
  So Hideyoshi loved all of that. You know, he's
• 48:59
  not pure xenophobe. And he's really interested
• 49:03
  in the outside world, mainly because he wants
• 49:04
  to conquer most of the outside world. But it's
• 49:08
  particularly Christianity and what it's done
• 49:10
  to Kyushu, I think, that he can't stand. And
• 49:14
  to some extent, this final person who comes along,
• 49:18
  Hideyoshi dies in 1598, the final person who
• 49:21
  comes along, who again takes up what the previous
• 49:24
  unifier has achieved and expands it himself,
• 49:27
  Tokugawa Ieyasu. It's him and his first couple
• 49:31
  of descendants who finally turn against Christianity
• 49:34
  as being this, I think they're probably quite
• 49:37
  accurate actually in this, being this cultural
• 49:40
  force in Japan that risks distancing ordinary
• 49:45
  people from the true focus of their loyalty,
• 49:48
  which should be the new Tokugawa shogunate, which
• 49:52
  should also be Buddhism. Confucian values, family.
• 49:57
  These are things to which he wants, Tokugawa
• 49:59
  Ieyasu, wants to see people adhere. These should
• 50:02
  be their real values. Instead, you've got foreign
• 50:06
  missionaries whose ultimate loyalties are in
• 50:08
  Rome and perhaps in Spain and Portugal as well.
• 50:12
  You know, that you can't really, culturally,
• 50:15
  spiritually, you can't really ride two horses
• 50:17
  at the same time. I think that's what the Tokugawa
• 50:20
  family kind of start to realize. And on a couple
• 50:24
  of occasions, people who seem loyal to him and
• 50:27
  to his family, but who are also Christians and
• 50:29
  who have these Latin or Portuguese Christian
• 50:31
  names as this marker, right, of riding two horses,
• 50:35
  they choose their faith and they choose their
• 50:39
  God. And that's just a risk you simply can't
• 50:42
  take, especially when you've got a newly unified
• 50:45
  country, which is still really fragile, right?
• 50:48
  If you look at Tokugawa Japan from the perspective
• 50:51
  that we did in our last conversation, 250 years
• 50:55
  of peace, of more or less unchallenged rule,
• 50:58
  great. It seems really solid. In the early 1600s,
• 51:02
  it's not. It's the kind of organization, a new
• 51:06
  shogunate, where one or two battles that go against
• 51:09
  you, and that's the end of it. There will be
• 51:11
  no Tokugawa dynasty. So because they prioritize
• 51:14
  security, Christianity is just a risk too far.
• 51:17
  And so they do have this really brutal pushback
• 51:21
  and this more or less complete closure of their
• 51:24
  borders, which, you know, in retrospect, seems
• 51:26
  a little bit sad in terms of centuries of potential
• 51:29
  contact with the West lost. But at the time,
• 51:33
  I think you can make an argument that it was
• 51:34
  fairly smart politics. If we rewind back just
• 51:39
  a little bit, we talked about... Japanese suspicions
• 51:42
  of Europeans before, throughout the conversation.
• 51:45
  In the TV show Shogun, which I'm sure you've
• 51:48
  seen, there's this great scene where Anjin -san,
• 51:51
  the protagonist, tells Toranaga... a .k .a. Tokugawa,
• 51:55
  who's going to become shogun one day, that the
• 51:57
  Spanish and the Portuguese divided the globe
• 52:00
  into equal parts. He draws it in the sand, in
• 52:02
  which they intend to dominate, and then Japan
• 52:04
  falls into the Portuguese sphere. Was there any
• 52:08
  historical truth to that whatsoever, or were
• 52:10
  the Jesuits just about spreading Catholicism
• 52:12
  and the traders just about making money? So there
• 52:16
  was truth in that. So the Spanish and the Portuguese
• 52:18
  did literally... divide the globe between them
• 52:21
  in a couple of treaties. So the first treaty
• 52:23
  divided it down the Atlantic, closer to Africa
• 52:26
  than to the Americas. But they divided it down
• 52:31
  the Atlantic. And then when they've gone around
• 52:33
  the world, they divided it, as it were, at the
• 52:35
  back. So that if you imagine East and Southeast
• 52:38
  Asia, the Spanish got the Philippines, you know,
• 52:43
  named after King Philip. Japan fell within the
• 52:47
  Portuguese sphere of influence. So that sense
• 52:49
  of dividing up the world between them in terms
• 52:51
  of who had a right to trade and evangelize where,
• 52:54
  that's absolutely true. So it's quite legitimate
• 52:57
  for him to, I think, make that point. Maybe the
• 53:01
  other thing to add, though, is that I think one
• 53:03
  of the reasons that people like the Tokugawa
• 53:05
  push back against Christianity is that from the
• 53:08
  early 1600s, Portuguese dominance around Japan
• 53:12
  is kind of spoiled by the Dutch. and then the
• 53:16
  English who developed the kind of maritime technology
• 53:19
  and the funding and the navigational understanding
• 53:22
  to come out there and try to challenge the Portuguese
• 53:26
  for some of these trading routes that they're
• 53:28
  running. And of course, the English and the Dutch
• 53:30
  are Protestant. They absolutely hate, for the
• 53:35
  most part, the Spanish and the Portuguese on
• 53:36
  religious grounds, but also on political grounds
• 53:38
  because they're having all sorts of wars with
• 53:39
  each other. And so people like Will Adams and
• 53:42
  others are keen to try to make the authorities
• 53:46
  in Japan understand that they should squeeze
• 53:49
  out the Catholics and let only the English and
• 53:52
  the Dutch deal with Japan. You know, the Catholics
• 53:55
  are not to be trusted. So they've got skin in
• 53:57
  the game, you know, when they're making their
• 53:59
  critique of who the Portuguese and the Spanish
• 54:00
  are and what they're up to. But I think it is
• 54:04
  fair that there are some Jesuit missionaries
• 54:08
  who you can see, and they commit this to writing,
• 54:10
  it would be easier to Christianize Japan if you
• 54:14
  control Japan. Because then you wouldn't have
• 54:18
  this problem of people like, Oda Nobunaga likes
• 54:20
  Christianity, so you do well for a while. Hideyoshi
• 54:22
  decides he doesn't. Suddenly missionaries are
• 54:24
  in trouble, churches are being dismantled, etc.
• 54:27
  You wouldn't have those ups and downs if you
• 54:30
  control Japan. And the comparison they make is
• 54:32
  with parts of the Americas, particularly southern
• 54:36
  and central America, where the Spanish and the
• 54:39
  Portuguese control these places. You can just
• 54:42
  go around vandalizing, destroying shrines, slaughtering
• 54:46
  people if you need to. Christianity the hard
• 54:49
  way, if you like, you can do it like that. In
• 54:51
  Japan, you can't. And it's this. constant process
• 54:54
  of having to compromise with the authorities
• 54:56
  to do the lord's work as they would see it so
• 55:00
  yeah for some they would have liked that but
• 55:03
  there was never a realistic plan on the part
• 55:06
  of the spanish and the portuguese to colonize
• 55:09
  um japan there's no realistic plan to do that
• 55:12
  some people would have liked to but it as far
• 55:15
  as they were concerned it's not worth the effort
• 55:17
  the money to be made in the early modern era
• 55:19
  is not by controlling lots and lots of territory
• 55:22
  It's by controlling trade routes. And as long
• 55:26
  as the Spanish and the Portuguese can do that,
• 55:27
  that's all they're really interested in. So some
• 55:30
  of the conspiracy theory stuff by the Protestants,
• 55:32
  I think, is maybe taking things a little bit
• 55:34
  too far. But nevertheless, yeah, the Spanish
• 55:37
  and the Portuguese certainly thought they had
• 55:39
  the right to do that and to control sort of Asia
• 55:41
  between them. And I think it's partly that sense
• 55:44
  of Protestant and Catholics at each other's throats
• 55:46
  in Japan that makes. leaders like Tokugawa Ieyasu
• 55:50
  think actually would it be easier if all these
• 55:53
  people were just out of the country it's kind
• 55:55
  of like some Japanese maybe and it's a bit of
• 55:58
  a stretch to compare it but now and again if
• 56:00
  I was sort of an ordinary Japanese person walking
• 56:01
  around Shibuya seeing a fight break out amongst
• 56:04
  foreigners of a Saturday night thought, wouldn't
• 56:06
  it be easy if these people would just leave?
• 56:08
  And I know that doesn't, you know, always happen.
• 56:10
  And it's not just the foreigners who cause fights
• 56:11
  in these parts of the world. But if they're an
• 56:13
  unruly presence, wouldn't you just rather have
• 56:15
  them out of the country? Especially if you're
• 56:16
  just about getting your country out of a period
• 56:19
  of chaos. So you can see how the Europeans were
• 56:22
  their own worst enemies collectively now and
• 56:25
  again. Since you mentioned him, the real story
• 56:28
  of William Adams, so the inspiration behind Einstein
• 56:31
  and the Shogun. Yeah. Being a navigator on a
• 56:35
  commercial vessel, which was something, but far
• 56:38
  from being anything close to a person of real
• 56:41
  status, not a nobleman or anything close to that,
• 56:43
  not just being accepted in Japan, but being elevated
• 56:48
  to the rank of, what was it, Hatamoto or something.
• 56:51
  I think a highly ranking samurai who could personally
• 56:55
  hang out with the shogun. Yes. Runs completely
• 56:58
  counter to what we often think about this medieval
• 57:01
  caste system, number one, and also number two,
• 57:04
  about the stuff we talked about before with the
• 57:06
  Japanese, at least initial attitudes to the so
• 57:10
  -called barbarians. How was this astonishing
• 57:14
  rise of a complete alien possible in these circumstances?
• 57:18
  Yeah, it's a good question. I think maybe a quick
• 57:20
  bit of context. Because you alluded to it earlier
• 57:22
  on, Hideyoshi, his kind of rags to riches story,
• 57:26
  right? Right, he's a peasant. Yeah. And that
• 57:29
  is a relatively rare story, but it's not an isolated
• 57:31
  incident because the idea that the samurai were
• 57:35
  a completely separate class, almost like a caste,
• 57:38
  doesn't really get going until the 17th century.
• 57:41
  So in this period, yeah, you've got warriors
• 57:43
  and the word samurai is sometimes used, but the
• 57:46
  idea that they are entirely separate from the
• 57:49
  rest of the population. isn't yet as strong,
• 57:52
  I think, as it becomes. And certainly if you're
• 57:55
  someone of enough talent, you can rise up. Although
• 57:58
  what's interesting is at points now and again
• 58:01
  when Hideyoshi is this great general, whenever
• 58:03
  he makes enemies... One of the things the enemies
• 58:06
  will say. They probably mention his lowly origins,
• 58:08
  right? They'll say, this is a man born in a peasant's
• 58:11
  hut. How is he going to tell us how to live?
• 58:13
  How is he going to legitimately be our opponent
• 58:16
  in battle? So he never quite gets rid of it.
• 58:17
  And I always think of him because he loved his
• 58:20
  mother so much and he gave her these elevated
• 58:23
  titles and he had her living in these great places.
• 58:26
  And I don't have any evidence of this, but you
• 58:27
  sort of think that a woman who spent most of
• 58:30
  her life in a kind of peasant milieu, let's say,
• 58:34
  who then starts moving in high samurai and also
• 58:37
  aristocratic circles, there surely would have
• 58:40
  been things about the way she spoke or her manners
• 58:42
  that would have made some kind of uppity Japanese
• 58:46
  aristocrats, you know, turn their noses up a
• 58:48
  little bit. I'd love to be a fly on the wall
• 58:52
  now and again when that was going on anyway.
• 58:53
  But it's sweet. Hideyoshi loved his mom. That's
• 58:55
  lovely. So, yeah, that's the first part is that
• 58:57
  there was a certain amount of, I think, flexibility
• 58:59
  here. I think the other part of it is. That if
• 59:04
  you were a foreigner, yes, you might be disparaged
• 59:09
  as barbaric in various areas of your behavior.
• 59:12
  But I think these three unifiers and other warlords
• 59:15
  as well, to be fair to them, were quite pragmatic.
• 59:18
  So Oda Nobunaga had a few Europeans who he liked
• 59:22
  to deal with because he thought they were useful.
• 59:24
  They were kind of... Literally translators, but
• 59:27
  also kind of cultural translators. Good to have
• 59:29
  around. Hideyoshi felt the same way. He had his
• 59:33
  favorite Jesuit missionary who he would often
• 59:36
  want by his side, who on Hideyoshi's deathbed,
• 59:39
  a guy called Rodriguez, tried but failed to convert
• 59:42
  him to Christianity right at the end. So they
• 59:45
  would always have their favorites. And I think
• 59:46
  Will Adams for a bit sort of filled that role
• 59:48
  because Tokugawa Ieyasu, one thing he was really
• 59:50
  interested in. And it's easy to lose sight of
• 59:53
  this because we associate his dynasty with this
• 59:56
  closure of Japan, right? This fairly conservative
• 59:58
  attitude towards borders. Actually, he wanted
• 1:00:01
  Japan to become a big global trading power. So
• 1:00:06
  his ideal would be, if you think about the map
• 1:00:08
  for a moment, Japan in the center. Yes, Japan's
• 1:00:11
  trading off to the west with... China and down
• 1:00:14
  into Southeast Asia. And Tokugawa Ieyasu really
• 1:00:17
  encourages all that. He thinks trade is very
• 1:00:21
  important. He doesn't want Japan to have to allow
• 1:00:25
  Europeans to make all the trading money. Why
• 1:00:27
  can't Japanese vessels and Japanese traders get
• 1:00:29
  in on it? So he's really encouraging that. And
• 1:00:32
  then off to the east, off to the right of the
• 1:00:34
  map, as it were, you've got... New Spain, right?
• 1:00:37
  The Spanish Empire. And the Spanish are already
• 1:00:40
  running ships between the Philippines and Acapulco.
• 1:00:44
  And so Ieyasu wants Japan as well to be able
• 1:00:48
  to trade with New Spain. And so he's really interested
• 1:00:51
  in anyone who can help him build ships, anyone
• 1:00:55
  who can help him understand navigation, anyone
• 1:00:59
  who has that spirit of adventure. And I think
• 1:01:02
  for him, Will Adams ticked. quite a few of those
• 1:01:05
  boxes. And I think, you know, it's easy for that
• 1:01:07
  novel and then for the Disney program to slightly
• 1:01:11
  exaggerate the bromance because, you know, it
• 1:01:13
  makes for a good story. And, you know, we don't
• 1:01:15
  know enough about Will Adams that we can entirely
• 1:01:18
  say it's not true, but there's a lot of creative
• 1:01:20
  license you can have with him. But I think what's
• 1:01:22
  interesting, slightly backs up what the show
• 1:01:25
  does actually, is that when Ieyasu dies, Will
• 1:01:29
  Adams is kind of out of favor. Because the love,
• 1:01:33
  maybe love is too strong, but the affection that
• 1:01:36
  Ieyasu had for him doesn't really transfer to
• 1:01:40
  Ieyasu's successes. And so Will Adams, towards
• 1:01:43
  the end of his career, it sort of fades out a
• 1:01:46
  little bit because he no longer has that clout.
• 1:01:49
  He can't get immediate access to the shogun like
• 1:01:51
  he used to be able to get. So there's an element
• 1:01:53
  of, yeah, self -interest for Ieyasu for the reasons
• 1:01:56
  that I said, but maybe there is. glimmerings
• 1:01:59
  of a bromance between the two that's quite real
• 1:02:02
  and if you successfully served the shogun then
• 1:02:05
  yeah naturally what you're awarded is that status
• 1:02:08
  a bit of land uh you know a few servants and
• 1:02:11
  on some accounts uh tokugawa iso is even involved
• 1:02:15
  in helping will adams to find a wife so it's
• 1:02:17
  sort of taking care of your men which is something
• 1:02:20
  you'd naturally do in that period but i read
• 1:02:24
  that um even though Tokugawa Yasu's son didn't
• 1:02:27
  share his affection to foreigners or William
• 1:02:32
  Adams, that he still confirmed his son, Joseph
• 1:02:35
  Adams, in the status of this Hatamoto, the samurai,
• 1:02:39
  which is really, really something. Yeah, it's
• 1:02:41
  lovely, isn't it? You can sort of pass it down,
• 1:02:43
  can't you, father to son? And I'm not sure how
• 1:02:46
  much we know now about what happened to his line.
• 1:02:51
  I don't think we know much about where they are
• 1:02:53
  now. But yeah, we do know that it got confirmed
• 1:02:55
  and that Will Adams himself, you know, in his
• 1:02:57
  will, left his swords and all this to his son.
• 1:03:00
  So it did carry on. But I think it was born in
• 1:03:04
  this period where Europeans were truly useful.
• 1:03:09
  to the Japanese, as opposed to being an annoyance.
• 1:03:12
  And that switch from usefulness to annoyance,
• 1:03:15
  I think is something that happens. I'd probably
• 1:03:17
  date it to the early 1620s. So we're talking,
• 1:03:21
  you know, a few years after Ieyasu passes away.
• 1:03:25
  But once that shift happens, it doesn't really
• 1:03:28
  go back again. You know, it's kind of done and
• 1:03:32
  done. And we have stories of the Europeans trying
• 1:03:34
  to open up Japan again. just being turned away.
• 1:03:38
  On one occasion, a Portuguese ship is literally
• 1:03:40
  destroyed to try to get home the message that
• 1:03:43
  we're not interested anymore. So it's kind of
• 1:03:45
  a sad ending. It's quite dramatic. Sorry, yeah.
• 1:03:48
  Besides a small Dutch outpost in Nagasaki, right?
• 1:03:52
  Yes, they're the only acceptable Europeans, basically,
• 1:03:55
  after the 1630s. And even then, this... physical
• 1:04:00
  sense of being kept at arm's length and i don't
• 1:04:02
  know some of your viewers either in japan or
• 1:04:04
  have a chance to go to japan to go to nagasaki
• 1:04:05
  and to get a sense of what this little island
• 1:04:08
  called dejima um was like they've refurbished
• 1:04:11
  a lot of it they kind of they're in the process
• 1:04:13
  i think still of redoing it but it was yeah an
• 1:04:16
  artificial island in the shape of a fan separated
• 1:04:18
  by a bridge which was guarded at all times um
• 1:04:23
  and so there was no sense of of coming and going
• 1:04:25
  uh for free the Dutch had to make this annual
• 1:04:30
  kind of pilgrimage to Edo, now Tokyo, right,
• 1:04:33
  the capital of the shogunate, more by means of
• 1:04:36
  sort of entertaining the Japanese than anything
• 1:04:40
  else. It comes back to that point at the beginning
• 1:04:42
  about the Europeans having very little power.
• 1:04:43
  So one Dutch visitor who makes that journey remembers
• 1:04:47
  being asked to take his coat off and then put
• 1:04:51
  it back on again because it was funny to see
• 1:04:53
  Europeans and how they dressed. And another one
• 1:04:55
  danced around because the Europeans were hilarious
• 1:04:57
  how they danced. Others were funny because they
• 1:05:00
  were ginger, which is kind of unusual in the
• 1:05:02
  Japanese way of thinking. They were completely
• 1:05:04
  played for laughs. Yeah, poor things. So that
• 1:05:07
  balance of power, it tells you everything you
• 1:05:09
  want to know, doesn't it? I also heard that during
• 1:05:13
  these weird pilgrimages when they were dancing
• 1:05:15
  for the Japanese aristocracy, that they thought
• 1:05:18
  that their feet are deformed because they were
• 1:05:21
  wearing shoes with heels. Yes. What's that all
• 1:05:26
  about? That they thought they have sort of like
• 1:05:27
  dog paws instead of normal feet. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:05:30
  absolutely. The kind of devil -like. I think,
• 1:05:34
  what is it, the Dutch clogs, isn't it, that they
• 1:05:36
  were wearing made them feel that way. Also, what's
• 1:05:39
  funny is that in the Sengoku period that we started
• 1:05:41
  off talking about, beards were a big thing, right?
• 1:05:44
  You'll see artwork of Oda Nobunaga quite heavily
• 1:05:47
  bearded, quite bushy. From the Tokugawa era onwards,
• 1:05:52
  that was less fashionable. People would shave
• 1:05:54
  and it was thought to be cleaner and more civilized
• 1:05:56
  to be clean shaven. And the fact that the Dutch
• 1:05:59
  were still often bearded. and generally quite
• 1:06:02
  hairy, was kind of part of their barbarity. You
• 1:06:06
  know, it goes alongside the clogs. And there
• 1:06:07
  are stories of some Japanese mothers saying to
• 1:06:09
  their children, threatening them if they're naughty.
• 1:06:13
  You know, if you're naughty, a Dutchman is going
• 1:06:15
  to come and take you or come and eat you or something.
• 1:06:17
  You know, these kind of semi -monstrous Dutch
• 1:06:21
  are going to come and have you. So I think that
• 1:06:24
  carried on. You know, what's really interesting
• 1:06:25
  is people, I know people are often big fans of...
• 1:06:28
  the mid 19th century when Commodore Perry arrives,
• 1:06:30
  it's really worth people jumping online. And
• 1:06:32
  again, maybe we can put it in the video. Some
• 1:06:35
  of the illustrations are fantastic. Yeah, exactly
• 1:06:38
  that. That's what I'm thinking. Some of these
• 1:06:39
  illustrations of Matthew C. Perry are done by
• 1:06:43
  people who'd never seen him, but who had an image
• 1:06:47
  in mind already of barbaric Westerners. And so
• 1:06:51
  some of these, you know, hair and whiskers in
• 1:06:54
  the wrong places, enormous. bulbous nose, goggly
• 1:06:57
  eyes, sort of weird colored skin. It's sort of
• 1:07:01
  hitting every note of Japanese perceptions, perceptions
• 1:07:04
  of the Europeans that never really got updated
• 1:07:07
  all the way into the 19th century. They kind
• 1:07:10
  of stay. And it's fascinating to see that coming
• 1:07:13
  out, I think, in that artwork of Perry. Yeah,
• 1:07:18
  I love those paintings. I go, I watch them often
• 1:07:23
  and it's amazing because The Japanese people
• 1:07:26
  who've seen Commodore Perry said that he has
• 1:07:27
  blue eyes. But then the people drawing him that
• 1:07:31
  didn't see him drew the white part of the eyes
• 1:07:37
  as blue. Oh, yes, that's right. Interesting.
• 1:07:40
  Yeah, it's really funny. But Chris, for the last
• 1:07:44
  part of what I wanted to talk about is that there's
• 1:07:46
  another fascinating story running in parallel
• 1:07:50
  here. And that was only recently made aware of.
• 1:07:54
  I had no idea about it before. And that's the
• 1:07:56
  stories of the Tensho and the Keicho embassies,
• 1:07:59
  where the Japanese send their own diplomats to
• 1:08:03
  Europe, I believe, one at the end of the 16th
• 1:08:05
  century and one at the beginning of the 17th
• 1:08:07
  century. Yes. And it seems like these lads weren't
• 1:08:11
  mucking about. Apparently, they caused a sensation
• 1:08:13
  when they appeared in Europe. And they even had
• 1:08:16
  audiences with a bunch of kings and even the
• 1:08:19
  Pope himself. Yes. Can you tell me more about...
• 1:08:22
  About these adventures? Yeah, absolutely. So
• 1:08:26
  the very first one probably is the one especially
• 1:08:29
  worth focusing on. So it leaves in the 1580s
• 1:08:33
  and it gets back right at the end of that decade
• 1:08:37
  or early 1590s. It's organized by the Jesuits.
• 1:08:41
  In fact, they want to show people back in Europe
• 1:08:45
  just how civilized a place Japan is and how it's
• 1:08:48
  worth people in Europe. stumping up some cash
• 1:08:50
  right to invest in their in their mission and
• 1:08:53
  they also want to show the children of Japanese
• 1:08:57
  really important Japanese warlords just how civilized
• 1:09:01
  a place Europe is because you know some Japanese
• 1:09:04
  have been thinking as we're saying earlier on
• 1:09:05
  the only reason these people would have come
• 1:09:07
  halfway around the world is because their own
• 1:09:09
  countries must be you know awful or have fallen
• 1:09:12
  into chaos and collapsed they want to show them
• 1:09:15
  that that's not true so for both of those reasons
• 1:09:17
  they get basically four um young japanese christian
• 1:09:22
  boys a couple of whom in particular are quite
• 1:09:25
  well connected they are sort of samurai aristocracy
• 1:09:27
  you could almost say um and they send them like
• 1:09:30
  you say all the way to uh europe they survive
• 1:09:33
  the journey it's months and months and months
• 1:09:35
  at sea really high risk kind of awful conditions
• 1:09:38
  but they somehow survive it they get all the
• 1:09:40
  way to lisbon And they just have this most sort
• 1:09:44
  of amazing adventure. It's kind of an odyssey.
• 1:09:47
  You know, they go through Lisbon. They go through
• 1:09:51
  Spain. They get to Madrid. They meet the Spanish
• 1:09:54
  king, who's apparently really interested in them.
• 1:09:57
  He's asking them why they drink hot water all
• 1:10:00
  year round. He's sort of feeling the fabric of
• 1:10:03
  their kimono. He's really interested in their
• 1:10:06
  swords. They go through there, they go through
• 1:10:09
  Italy, they go down, they meet two popes, not
• 1:10:13
  even just one. They meet the first pope who's
• 1:10:15
  really sweet to them, kind to them, gives them
• 1:10:17
  all sorts of clothes. He even goes as far as
• 1:10:21
  saying to local Italian nobles, stop inviting
• 1:10:24
  them for so many dinners because all this rich
• 1:10:27
  European food might sort of mess with their stomachs.
• 1:10:29
  So he's really quite tender in his treatment
• 1:10:31
  of them. And then that pope dies while they're
• 1:10:34
  there and the next pope is enthroned and they
• 1:10:36
  take part. in his enthronement and then they
• 1:10:39
  go all the way back up through Italy all the
• 1:10:41
  way around to Lisbon and back home again and
• 1:10:45
  Europeans are really impressed I think by these
• 1:10:48
  boys for all sorts of reasons partly because
• 1:10:49
  of how they dress because they dress in full
• 1:10:52
  kimono with their katana and also with their
• 1:10:55
  short sword they have their incredible hair tied
• 1:10:58
  back they bring these gifts they're also for
• 1:11:01
  the Europeans they're a combination of what Europeans
• 1:11:04
  already think about Japanese which is they're
• 1:11:05
  very respectful But because these boys are also
• 1:11:08
  Christians, they are really devoted. And so whenever
• 1:11:13
  they enter a church or a great cathedral, the
• 1:11:16
  devotion that they show really impresses these
• 1:11:19
  Europeans. So for all these sorts of reasons,
• 1:11:21
  they go down a storm in Europe and there are
• 1:11:25
  all these European publications, people saying
• 1:11:26
  how amazing these Japanese people are. So a kind
• 1:11:29
  of mini Japan fever gets going as part of this
• 1:11:33
  visit. And then the boys eventually disappear
• 1:11:35
  off home. I suppose one thing that strikes me
• 1:11:38
  about that mission, really interesting, is it's...
• 1:11:41
  carefully managed by the Jesuits. The Jesuits
• 1:11:43
  do not want the boys to meet any Protestants.
• 1:11:47
  Because if the boys get a sense that Europe is
• 1:11:51
  divided between Catholics and Protestants, then
• 1:11:53
  everything the Jesuits have claimed about Europe
• 1:11:56
  and the role of Christianity in Europe as basically
• 1:11:58
  the kind of spiritual engine of European culture
• 1:12:02
  is going to start to look a bit... iffy so they
• 1:12:04
  absolutely don't want that to be uh to be found
• 1:12:07
  out so they have these jesuit minders around
• 1:12:08
  them the whole time but it's an extraordinary
• 1:12:10
  visit and then they they go to operas and theaters
• 1:12:13
  as well then they come all the way back and they
• 1:12:14
  meet hideyoshi and they play music for hideyoshi
• 1:12:17
  to give them a flavor of um of european culture
• 1:12:20
  so it's beautiful visit and so that's the first
• 1:12:22
  one second one maybe a little bit more uh briefly
• 1:12:25
  happens as you say early in the 17th century
• 1:12:28
  um this is the first i think official Japanese
• 1:12:32
  embassy to Europe because it's sent by a Japanese
• 1:12:34
  warlord, you know, with the blessing of the shogunate.
• 1:12:38
  This is an amazing journey because this one,
• 1:12:40
  whereas the first embassy, if you imagine the
• 1:12:42
  map, went southwards from Japan around the coast
• 1:12:47
  of India. They stopped off in India and then
• 1:12:50
  around Africa and up into Lisbon. This one goes
• 1:12:52
  in the other direction. So they sail the Pacific.
• 1:12:56
  And they stop off in New Spain, travel across
• 1:12:58
  on foot, and then they sail the Atlantic. So
• 1:13:00
  it's an amazing voyage. But their reception in
• 1:13:03
  Europe is a bit more mixed because by the time
• 1:13:06
  they get to Europe, Europeans have heard about
• 1:13:09
  Hideyoshi and how he hates Christianity. And
• 1:13:13
  he had very famously the so -called 26 martyrs.
• 1:13:16
  these Christians crucified just outside Nagasaki
• 1:13:20
  on a hill. Europeans have heard all about that.
• 1:13:22
  And so it kind of goes back to what we were saying
• 1:13:24
  right at the beginning of our conversation, that
• 1:13:26
  there are mixed feelings on both sides. So by
• 1:13:29
  the time this second embassy gets to Europe in
• 1:13:31
  the early 17th century, European mixed feelings
• 1:13:35
  about Japan are really in play. They know all
• 1:13:39
  the good stuff about Japan, the sophistication,
• 1:13:41
  the respect, but they also know of this. willingness
• 1:13:44
  to resort to incredible violence against Christians,
• 1:13:48
  including against Japanese Christians. So their
• 1:13:50
  reception is a little bit more mixed this time.
• 1:13:52
  It's still a remarkable visit. And again, they
• 1:13:55
  get to Italy and again, they see the Pope and
• 1:13:57
  they still leave their mark. Even little things.
• 1:14:00
  I think they were in Saint -Tropez at one point
• 1:14:03
  where the Japanese were using tissues, which
• 1:14:07
  Europeans don't use. They've never heard of them.
• 1:14:10
  And so what they see is these men who have these
• 1:14:12
  very fine bits of paper, they blow their noses
• 1:14:16
  into them and then they kind of let them drop,
• 1:14:17
  which is weird, isn't it? It's sort of littering
• 1:14:19
  as we might think of it now, but that's what
• 1:14:21
  they did anyway. And these ordinary people kind
• 1:14:23
  of hurrying to grab up the tissue with whatever
• 1:14:26
  it's got inside it as a kind of souvenir of these
• 1:14:29
  kind of strange and interesting Japanese people.
• 1:14:32
  But yeah, the second embassy is important, but
• 1:14:35
  I think that... By that point, that sense of
• 1:14:38
  a mixed reputation, and it makes me think towards
• 1:14:41
  the end, and I don't know whether the Shogun
• 1:14:44
  series, however they adapt it, might get to this
• 1:14:46
  period, but towards the end, some of the dominant
• 1:14:50
  European impressions of the Japanese are not
• 1:14:54
  just violence, but also a kind of sadism as well.
• 1:14:59
  And I think viewers who've read the book Silence,
• 1:15:02
  the novel, or they've seen the Martin Scorsese
• 1:15:04
  film, an amazing film, they'll kind of have that
• 1:15:07
  sense. A lot of the writings about Japan towards
• 1:15:10
  the end of the period we're thinking about are
• 1:15:12
  written by Portuguese writers or other missionary
• 1:15:15
  writers who are describing the most extraordinary
• 1:15:18
  sorts of torture of Christians. Japanese Christians
• 1:15:23
  mainly to try to get into a can, you know, things
• 1:15:24
  like the boiling hot sulfurous springs not far
• 1:15:28
  from Nagasaki. They would take Christians there,
• 1:15:30
  they would cut them and then they would dump
• 1:15:33
  them. in this boiling hot water to try to get
• 1:15:37
  them to recant, or they would dangle them upside
• 1:15:40
  down in a pit where it had lots of human and
• 1:15:43
  animal excrement in the bottom, you know, for
• 1:15:46
  hours or even days on end, again, to try to get
• 1:15:50
  them to recant. Because the Japanese realized
• 1:15:51
  that if you simply kill Japanese Christians,
• 1:15:54
  you know, burn them at the stake, it doesn't
• 1:15:57
  work. One of the things that really the Tokugawa
• 1:15:59
  found odd about Christianity, the reasons it
• 1:16:01
  really made their skin crawl, I think, is...
• 1:16:04
  Sometimes when a Japanese Christian would be
• 1:16:05
  burned at the stake, other Japanese Christians
• 1:16:07
  would gather around and they would pray or they
• 1:16:10
  would sing hymns or they would encourage each
• 1:16:12
  other, you know. And for the authorities, this
• 1:16:15
  was so strange. Think about what it looks like
• 1:16:17
  from a Japanese point of view. You've got a religion
• 1:16:20
  that's based on a convicted criminal who's lawfully
• 1:16:23
  executed by the authorities, Jesus of Nazareth,
• 1:16:26
  who now, 1 ,500 years later, his followers again
• 1:16:30
  are worshipping and celebrating Christians. And
• 1:16:33
  who appear to not care about legitimate authority.
• 1:16:36
  So they really hate all that stuff. So rather
• 1:16:38
  than kill them because they think this encourages
• 1:16:40
  people, you know, martyrdom. Instead, it's people
• 1:16:43
  who give up on their faith, who recant it, who
• 1:16:46
  reject their religion that they think has the
• 1:16:49
  most powerful effect on people all around them.
• 1:16:52
  And because for the Jesuits, if you think the
• 1:16:54
  propaganda value of that back in Europe to say,
• 1:16:58
  you know, here are some people who didn't give
• 1:17:00
  up their faith, even under torture. This is how
• 1:17:03
  strong Christianity is in Japan, you know. So
• 1:17:05
  they love that kind of thing. You know, people
• 1:17:06
  back home in Europe, they love a good story as
• 1:17:08
  well, right? The equivalent of kind of going
• 1:17:10
  viral now is having a really strong account of
• 1:17:13
  martyrdom back in the early 17th century. So
• 1:17:16
  in a way, kind of unfortunately, the last dominant
• 1:17:21
  impression from this period is of not just rejection
• 1:17:24
  of Christianity, but of a kind of sadistic. violence
• 1:17:31
  on the part of the japanese um it does get nuanced
• 1:17:34
  a bit you were mentioning the dutch you occasionally
• 1:17:36
  get dutch writers who will write back home or
• 1:17:39
  german prussian writers uh working on dejima
• 1:17:42
  who write back home with updates on who the japanese
• 1:17:44
  are but from the period that we've been talking
• 1:17:47
  about yeah that last impression is is quite quite
• 1:17:51
  sad and quite tragic even i would say And all
• 1:17:56
  of the members of these expeditions to Europe
• 1:17:58
  who became Catholic, right, they have a pretty
• 1:18:01
  sad ending back in Japan. I believe some of them
• 1:18:04
  were even tortured and killed, just like you
• 1:18:06
  described. And all of these voyages, I also read,
• 1:18:10
  are struck from historical records. So then when
• 1:18:12
  Japan opens more than 200... years later, and
• 1:18:16
  they have another expedition in the 19th century
• 1:18:18
  to Europe. These guys are completely astonished
• 1:18:21
  when they see that there were past expeditions,
• 1:18:23
  Japanese expeditions to Europe that already happened.
• 1:18:25
  Because in Europe, you have paintings of these
• 1:18:28
  diplomats and of these guys, of these boys, and
• 1:18:32
  so forth. That's really interesting. So yeah,
• 1:18:35
  I think in Japan, after they close their borders
• 1:18:37
  in the 1630s, they want to retell the story of
• 1:18:40
  the almost hundred years that's just passed and
• 1:18:43
  wipe from it any sense that there was useful
• 1:18:46
  encounter with uh with europe and so those embassies
• 1:18:50
  are not talked about now in this new period after
• 1:18:54
  1630s you can't leave japan without permission
• 1:18:56
  uh if you do and you come back you'll be executed
• 1:18:59
  and there's an attempt not just to erase some
• 1:19:03
  of what's happened in the past but to tell what
• 1:19:05
  happened in a completely new way and it's told
• 1:19:07
  as a kind of morality tale right which is Japan
• 1:19:11
  was weak. It was politically divided. Buddhist
• 1:19:14
  clergy weren't behaving as they should. All the
• 1:19:16
  proper values that the Tokugawa family tried
• 1:19:19
  to encourage people in, particularly Confucian
• 1:19:22
  values, I think, all those values have kind of
• 1:19:24
  fallen away. And if your country has that happen
• 1:19:27
  to it, it makes itself weak. And you open yourself
• 1:19:31
  up to these barbarous parasitical invaders from
• 1:19:35
  outside. And just to give you a flavor of how
• 1:19:37
  they talked about Europeans. And I think this
• 1:19:40
  is important because what I'm going to read you
• 1:19:41
  is from a chronicle which tells that story as
• 1:19:45
  a morality tale. And it was hugely popular and
• 1:19:48
  much emulated. And so by the time Komodo Matthew
• 1:19:51
  C. Perry got to Japan in the mid 19th century
• 1:19:53
  and then Christians started arriving again, these
• 1:19:56
  are the sorts of images that most Japanese had
• 1:19:59
  in mind in advance about them. So let me give
• 1:20:03
  you a sense of this. One of these chronicles
• 1:20:06
  is called the Kirishitan Monogatari, so the Christian
• 1:20:09
  story produced in Kyoto in the 1630s. And it
• 1:20:13
  says this right towards the beginning. A southern
• 1:20:16
  barbarian trading vessel came to our shores.
• 1:20:19
  From this ship for the first time emerged an
• 1:20:22
  unnameable creature, somewhat similar in shape
• 1:20:25
  to a human being, but looking rather more like
• 1:20:29
  a long -nosed goblin. Upon close interrogation,
• 1:20:33
  it was discovered that this was a being called
• 1:20:35
  a priest. So they're talking about the Jesuits
• 1:20:38
  here. The length of his nose was the first thing
• 1:20:41
  which attracted attention. It was like a conch
• 1:20:44
  shell attached by suction to his face. His eyes
• 1:20:49
  were as large as spectacles and their insides
• 1:20:52
  were yellow. His head was small. On his hands
• 1:20:55
  and feet, he had long claws. His height exceeded
• 1:20:59
  seven feet. and he was black all over. Only his
• 1:21:03
  nose was red. What he said could not be understood
• 1:21:06
  at all. His voice was like the screech of an
• 1:21:10
  owl. So there you go. How's that for barbarians?
• 1:21:14
  It sounds like that's how my Japanese wife described
• 1:21:19
  me to her parents for the first time. Lovely.
• 1:21:22
  Oh, how charming. That's a really nice insight
• 1:21:24
  into your life there. Thank you. Oh, no, that
• 1:21:27
  was amazing. I could listen to that for hours.
• 1:21:29
  I'm not going to lie, Chris. It's like almost
• 1:21:31
  like a battle rapper going at it. Yeah. Yes.
• 1:21:35
  Talking about his nemesis. Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:21:38
  Absolutely. And if you think that kind of thing
• 1:21:40
  then gets repeated, illustrators take it up and
• 1:21:43
  it becomes just the default view, I think, of
• 1:21:47
  the Western world and Japan. To give the Japanese
• 1:21:49
  their due, and people can go back and listen
• 1:21:51
  to our other conversation if they haven't heard
• 1:21:52
  it, the Japanese are very, very quick to revise
• 1:21:56
  that and to pick up what's needed from the West,
• 1:22:00
  you know, in the late 19th century into the 20th.
• 1:22:02
  I think that the one thing that doesn't change
• 1:22:05
  much is the sense that Christianity is foreign,
• 1:22:10
  that this is a foreign set of ideas that just
• 1:22:14
  maybe can be tolerated in Japan, but... The phrase
• 1:22:18
  Japanese Christianity is a kind of oxymoron.
• 1:22:21
  Those two words just don't go together. Some
• 1:22:23
  people even in Japan would say, and they do say
• 1:22:26
  in the, I think it's in the late 19th century,
• 1:22:29
  people start to say this. There's no room in
• 1:22:31
  Japan for two sons of God. You know, you've got
• 1:22:34
  Jesus Christ and then you've got the emperor,
• 1:22:36
  you know, who claims divine descent from the
• 1:22:38
  gods. And I think it's this sense that really
• 1:22:41
  gets going in the period that we've talked about.
• 1:22:44
  doesn't change later on, both that it's foreign
• 1:22:46
  in the sense that people have ultimate loyalties
• 1:22:48
  over in Europe, and that the idea of a religion
• 1:22:52
  which requires you to renounce all the other
• 1:22:58
  gods and all these other forms of devotion just
• 1:23:02
  feels kind of cultish and dangerous and almost
• 1:23:07
  like brainwashing. Because in Japan, you know,
• 1:23:11
  you're living there. The attitude is much more,
• 1:23:14
  where can we find out how the world works? How
• 1:23:18
  much spiritual protection can we get? The idea
• 1:23:22
  that you would risk just destroying temples and
• 1:23:25
  shrines and turning your back on the gods just
• 1:23:27
  seems insane. And even if you're not especially
• 1:23:31
  a religious person, you know, plenty of people
• 1:23:33
  in Japan aren't especially religious. that almost
• 1:23:36
  makes it worse now. The idea that you might have
• 1:23:38
  a commitment that's so deep and so niche that
• 1:23:41
  you feel you have no time for these other things,
• 1:23:43
  I think has always seemed a bit strange. And
• 1:23:48
  given that some people talk about the period
• 1:23:49
  we've just been talking about as the Christian
• 1:23:51
  century, the fact that it leaves people in Japan
• 1:23:54
  with that sense of Christianity as being narrow
• 1:23:57
  and foreign and un -Japanese, I think is... is
• 1:24:01
  remarkable you know you go through a period in
• 1:24:02
  the late 19th century where interestingly a few
• 1:24:05
  samurai in particular become christians right
• 1:24:08
  they've lost their feudal lord because of the
• 1:24:10
  new political system in japan and they take on
• 1:24:12
  quite explicitly jesus christ as their new lord
• 1:24:16
  that's kind of how they think about it and some
• 1:24:18
  of them say like the um one of the great christian
• 1:24:22
  figures uh saint paul they say he was a natural
• 1:24:24
  samurai Because he hated money, you know, and
• 1:24:27
  he lived by these very, very careful rules. And
• 1:24:30
  he was kind of naturally ascetic and disciplined
• 1:24:33
  in how he carried himself. So they tried to see
• 1:24:37
  a few parallels, but that's only really brief,
• 1:24:39
  I think. After that, the sense comes back that,
• 1:24:42
  yeah, most people tolerate Christianity, but
• 1:24:45
  it's kind of a niche interest and it's not really
• 1:24:48
  Japanese. I think that has kind of lingered.
• 1:24:52
  even when other Japanese perceptions of Westerners
• 1:24:54
  have perhaps changed. Although I think, what
• 1:24:56
  do you think? I think the emotional incontinence
• 1:25:00
  of Westerners in Japan, I think that's still
• 1:25:04
  there. I've been in Japan plenty of times where
• 1:25:06
  I've watched groups of Japanese people watching
• 1:25:09
  Westerners being noisy or exaggerated or immediately
• 1:25:13
  changing the tone of a coffee shop or a train
• 1:25:17
  or a temple simply by being there. And then just
• 1:25:21
  thinking, just shut up or tone it down or something
• 1:25:25
  you know i don't think that's changed terribly
• 1:25:27
  much but yeah what do you think maybe i can illustrate
• 1:25:31
  it with a little anecdote a japanese friend of
• 1:25:34
  mine whose wife is a professional dancer and
• 1:25:37
  a teacher he invited me to her show and he's
• 1:25:41
  like i'm gonna pay the ticket for you because
• 1:25:42
  it was really expensive because there was other
• 1:25:44
  like musical acts and stuff and i was like oh
• 1:25:46
  how lovely is that and then when when we went
• 1:25:48
  there it was in shibuya He told me, actually,
• 1:25:51
  you know what? My wife's got a little bit of
• 1:25:52
  a problem. And that's that one of her students
• 1:25:54
  is turning out to be a bit of a stalker. And
• 1:25:58
  I was like, oh, that doesn't sound really nice.
• 1:26:02
  And he said, yeah, so, you know, I brought you
• 1:26:05
  along. So if he shows up, if he sees me, he's
• 1:26:08
  not going to be scared because I'm a skinny Japanese
• 1:26:11
  guy. But if he sees me with you. You're like
• 1:26:16
  a big foreigner at the time. I had like a shaved
• 1:26:18
  head. He told me, you know, Japanese people are
• 1:26:21
  usually scared of foreigners. So if he sees that
• 1:26:24
  I'm hanging out with you and that you're there,
• 1:26:26
  he's not ever going to do anything like that
• 1:26:29
  again. He's not going to show up. So I was like,
• 1:26:31
  okay, so this is how it's going to be from now
• 1:26:34
  on. So he basically spelled it out when, I mean,
• 1:26:37
  he said that, yeah, the Japanese are usually
• 1:26:39
  scared of foreigners. Well, and was that the
• 1:26:41
  reason for your invitation? to the show. Yeah,
• 1:26:44
  totally. That's why I keep... Intimidation. So
• 1:26:45
  I didn't know whether should I be... Yeah, like,
• 1:26:48
  should I be flattered or insulted or a little
• 1:26:51
  bit of both or... So I'm playing up my gaijin
• 1:26:55
  card a little bit sometimes when it's useful,
• 1:26:56
  you know. Do you know what? That's a great story.
• 1:26:58
  Seeming dangerous. Yeah, that's a great story.
• 1:27:00
  But I think you've also hit on the other side
• 1:27:03
  of it, the gaijin card. Do people... Because
• 1:27:05
  we used that expression many years ago. Do people
• 1:27:07
  still use that expression and play the gaijin
• 1:27:09
  card? Yeah, totally. And my wife is quite upset
• 1:27:12
  sometimes because she's like, you're getting
• 1:27:13
  away with stuff that I would never be able to,
• 1:27:16
  especially as a woman, of course, but also as
• 1:27:18
  a Japanese person. So it's a double -edged sword,
• 1:27:21
  I guess, the gaijinko. You know what? Something
• 1:27:23
  simply never changed. That's amazing. Because
• 1:27:26
  we started out using that phrase just for when
• 1:27:30
  we, as in myself and the people I was in Japan
• 1:27:33
  with back in many years ago. When we genuinely
• 1:27:36
  did something that was wrong, you know, we were
• 1:27:38
  drinking a soft drink, but on a train, not a
• 1:27:41
  shinkansen, but a train where you really can't
• 1:27:42
  and other sorts of things. I played the gaijin
• 1:27:45
  card as in, oh, it's just an excuse for not yet
• 1:27:48
  understanding the place. But bit by bit, if there
• 1:27:50
  are some rules people just don't really like,
• 1:27:52
  then yeah, you sort of play the gaijin card,
• 1:27:55
  play the ignorance thing. I can probably get
• 1:27:58
  away with that. You know, my wife feels the same
• 1:28:00
  way. She's from Okayama and she sort of, I remember
• 1:28:03
  her saying that, You know, you kind of have it,
• 1:28:05
  as in me, you have the best of both worlds because
• 1:28:09
  you get to enjoy everything that Japan has to
• 1:28:10
  offer. And yet the price that some people pay
• 1:28:14
  for some of that, whether it's the kind of the
• 1:28:16
  good order, the way things work well, etc. You're
• 1:28:19
  not having to pay most of that price. And I had
• 1:28:22
  a scholarship to a university at that point,
• 1:28:24
  writing something. I didn't even have to go to
• 1:28:26
  meetings. at work you know you literally have
• 1:28:29
  no responsibilities in Japan and you can simply
• 1:28:32
  uh you can simply enjoy it and get away with
• 1:28:34
  whatever you want so it's kind of interesting
• 1:28:36
  to hear that really nothing changes although
• 1:28:38
  do you think though now in Japan because of the
• 1:28:41
  volume of tourism maybe it's not quite as many
• 1:28:43
  in Tokyo that it's yet a problem but I get the
• 1:28:46
  feeling in Kyoto for foreign residents of Kyoto
• 1:28:50
  the playing of the gaijin card maybe will change
• 1:28:53
  if not already Because people just don't want
• 1:28:57
  you there in the first place. And I think it's
• 1:28:58
  in Tokyo as well. Really? It's in Tokyo as well.
• 1:29:01
  And, you know, us foreigners are definitely back
• 1:29:03
  on the menu here in Japan. And usually in a bad
• 1:29:07
  sense, like you said, fighting each other in
• 1:29:09
  Shinjuku. They like to play that on the telly
• 1:29:12
  a lot here. So, I don't know. Things are getting
• 1:29:16
  a little bit more frosty, shall we say. It does
• 1:29:20
  feel like it could be a new phase in the story,
• 1:29:22
  potentially, relationships between Japan and
• 1:29:24
  certain parts of the West. I remember seeing
• 1:29:26
  a social media video where someone had said,
• 1:29:31
  oh, what's happening to Japan because of all
• 1:29:32
  these foreigners? And there were rubbish bags
• 1:29:35
  being shown on the street. But as someone pointed
• 1:29:38
  out, they were the very well -organized and properly
• 1:29:40
  color -coded rubbish bags that shops put out.
• 1:29:44
  collectors can collect them it isn't that you
• 1:29:47
  know foreigners have been throwing around trash
• 1:29:48
  in the streets so it can be a bit unfair sometimes
• 1:29:51
  but like you say the media absolutely love to
• 1:29:54
  to pick that out don't they so I don't know I
• 1:29:57
  hope there will be there will be some way through
• 1:30:00
  it because I mean so many people I know would
• 1:30:02
  absolutely love to go to Japan holiday of a lifetime
• 1:30:05
  right for most people and to go there but simply
• 1:30:08
  pick up this feeling that you are an annoyance
• 1:30:11
  and that you're not wanted It would just be a
• 1:30:14
  bit sad, wouldn't it, really? I hope it doesn't
• 1:30:16
  entirely come to that for people. And most people,
• 1:30:19
  I was in Kyoto just last year, and having heard
• 1:30:22
  these horror stories, I thought, my God, what's
• 1:30:23
  it going to be like? I would say 99 % of the
• 1:30:27
  visitors I encountered were going out of their
• 1:30:29
  way to be polite and to try to gel with what
• 1:30:34
  they imagined Japanese culture to be. You know,
• 1:30:37
  excessive politeness and bowing and smiling.
• 1:30:42
  Sheer volume of numbers was a problem, for sure.
• 1:30:45
  But in terms of most people making the effort,
• 1:30:48
  I think I'd want to speak up for tourists as
• 1:30:51
  generally being pretty well behaved. I don't
• 1:30:53
  know if that's your experience in Tokyo. But
• 1:30:56
  yeah, to try and end on a happy -ish note, that's
• 1:30:58
  my experience. I like it. A controversial take
• 1:31:00
  at the end. No, same. All of my friends who come
• 1:31:03
  here are super respectful. That's good. Yeah,
• 1:31:07
  willing to learn. Chris, thank you so much. I
• 1:31:11
  mean, I could listen to this for like another
• 1:31:13
  72 hours. This is such a cool conversation. When
• 1:31:16
  is the book coming out and where can we get it?
• 1:31:19
  So the book is coming out, hopefully, roughly
• 1:31:23
  this time next year. It's just been the manuscript
• 1:31:27
  sent in and it takes a while. So probably pre
• 1:31:29
  -orders are not in play yet. Not just yet, but
• 1:31:33
  I mean, maybe I'll come back and do another.
• 1:31:35
  chat with you we should probably next time talk
• 1:31:38
  about the bit in between we've talked about this
• 1:31:41
  period we talked about the later period so in
• 1:31:43
  the middle there's this fascinating chunk of
• 1:31:46
  the Edo era that a lot of Japanese people remember
• 1:31:48
  as kind of Japan's heyday its peak when it wasn't
• 1:31:54
  being interfered with And there's absolutely
• 1:31:56
  no foreigners in them. Exactly. So maybe we'll
• 1:31:59
  come back and talk about that just when the book's
• 1:32:01
  about to come out. I had a lot of, I'm not going
• 1:32:04
  to lie, I had a lot of, I like to drink alcohol
• 1:32:06
  sometimes. So I go to a lot of like bars and
• 1:32:09
  it's not an unusual scene where like a Japanese
• 1:32:12
  ojichan is going to tell me that that was the
• 1:32:15
  best period of Japan. And I can totally understand
• 1:32:17
  what he's trying to tell me between the lines.
• 1:32:21
  Yes. So we should talk about that for sure. Great.
• 1:32:24
  I look forward to that. thank you thank you for
• 1:32:25
  having me on as well thank you so much thank
• 1:32:28
  you so much for listening please subscribe on
• 1:32:29
  youtube follow and rate on spotify and apple
• 1:32:31
  podcast you would help me a bunch with that also
• 1:32:34
  feel free to support me on patreon this is a
• 1:32:36
  one -person podcast i do everything by my little
• 1:32:38
  old self it's a lot of work especially with no
• 1:32:40
  team no ads and no marketing but you can help
• 1:32:43
  by hopping on patreon and finding the smart cookies
• 1:32:45
  podcast on there and then giving me your money
• 1:32:49
  of course there's podcasters who are practically
• 1:32:51
  billionaires out there every established news
• 1:32:53
  organization or news site has 50 podcast programs
• 1:32:56
  now it's super hard for small creators to get
• 1:32:59
  through so your support really would mean a lot
• 1:33:02
  and then last but certainly not least i have
• 1:33:05
  to thank my existing patrons without you there
• 1:33:07
  is no smart cookies podcast which makes you not
• 1:33:10
  only absolute legends but also actual producers
• 1:33:13
  of this show so eternal gratitude goes to do
• 1:33:43
  me hold this Manciano, Miha, Medved, Medinho,
• 1:33:44
  Goran, Gordon, Lorenzo, Juricuk, Mila, Carmen,
• 1:33:46
  Veronica and Tai Chi. Thanks a million.