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Dirty Rush: When a Greek life Ritual turns deadly · The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys, welcome back to another episode of Dirty Rush.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I am your host, Jen Fessler, and today is a
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: different type of episode and I'm going to be joined
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: by Eric and Linda Oakes. So they are a couple
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: who lost their son, Adam Oaks, due to a fraternity
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: hazing incident that happened almost five years ago. So their
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: story is highlighted in this really unbelievable documentary. It's called
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: four thousand Days. It's actually premiering soon at the Tribeca
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Film Festival on June tenth. And this is again, this
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: is a different type of episode, and it's we really
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: try at Dirty Rush to highlight the good, the bad,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: and the ugly, and this certainly is falls under the
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: ugly category. Hazing. We're talking in this instance about fraternity
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: hazing is it can be scary, and for this couple
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: and for many other couples, it can be fatal. So
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: we think that it's important to talk about all aspects
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: of Greek life. And hopefully you guys as listeners will
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: take some of this in and you know, can use
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: it in one way or another. So this amazing and
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: I mean amazing documentary previewed on June tenth at the
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Tribeca Film Festival. And it is incredible, very difficult and
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: sad to watch, but really really important.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Hi Jan how are you?
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Hi? What a pleasure and really an honor to meet
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: you both. Thank you so much for coming on. I'm
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: still spinning from this film, and I think of Adam
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: since i've seen it. I think of him all the time.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: I mean I only saw it. I saw it, I
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: don't know a few days ago, but the sweetness of
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: your boy, and I'll get like choked up just talking
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: about it.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: But yeah, you did me choked up.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: You know the way you guys spoke of him and
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: him being your only child, and the you know, the
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: way that you talked about I have we have to
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: do this interview, but I want to just tell you
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: that I do think about him often, and I'm so
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: sorry for your unimaginable loss.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I really appreciate it and what conveyed in
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: the movie and what I mean, that's how that's who
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: he was. I mean, truthfully that he was. He was.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: He was a great kid and a shining light and
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: it's terrible that he's not here anymore.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: I can see it in the movie from the way
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: you all have responded to this. You're very special, I
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: can't and courageous and the movie is inspiring and so
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: sad and tragic, but also I don't know, it says
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: something in terms of like the human condition that you
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: all rose up from this tragedy and you have done
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: such good and important work.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: You know, thank you so much. You're very kind and sweet. Truth,
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: So thank you.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: It's the truth.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: We just don't want to come off looking stupid, stupid,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: meaning like we were trying to have them on the
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: stage and trying to have them, you know, talk about
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: what happened, and you know, I don't want a lot
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: of people going.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: You know, there was no one that looks stupid. I
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: don't want to get too into it. It's the weeds here.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: But in my humble opinion, except boys that once they
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: didn't have to showing up for you guys, So I
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: don't know what why in the world you would think
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: that you looked stupid. You look like two of the
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: most courageous people that I know that I've ever It's
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: been true lot. How do you guys feel about the
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: fact that this is about to happen right that this
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: the premiere is is like, now.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're super excited, and you know, it's been.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Four years not such a long time.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Right, right, And I understand a lot of documentaries take
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: even longer to make, and this one is, uh, it's
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: it's very important that it gets out there and agreed,
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: people see it and parents can watch it with their
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: kids that are going off to college, grandparents can watch it.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: You know, it's something that the story needs to be told.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: I think it should be a prerequisite for seniors and
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: entering freshmen.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: Right, And that's what our foundation does that we do
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: presentations to high school students, yep, and we go over
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: the things that Adam didn't have. That night, we show
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: our movie The Death A Death of a Pledge. I'm
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: not sure if you stop if you've seen that or not.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen it, but I know about it.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: Okay. It's twenty two minutes long, and it's not I mean,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: it's encompasses our work in you know, a very short time.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: But and then afterwards we talk about the dangers of
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: alcohol poisoning and what to do to get help, you know,
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: by stander intervention into call nine to one one, right,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: and then we do questions and answers with the seniors
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: in high school, and it's everyone that we've ever talked to,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: and we get feedback from at the end of the presentation,
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: and everybody has said that this is the most impactful
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: presentation that they've ever had, and you know, they needed
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: this information going into college.
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: I saw the looks on the students' faces, you know,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: you showed it during the film, and how taken aback
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: they were and how touched that they were. And I
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: mean if my kid had had an experience like that
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: an assembly or I know that both of my kids
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: would have been very impacted by that. And I feel
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: like this work that you're doing, you it's been four
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: thousand days and more than that, right, it's been this
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: kind of the work that you have taken on is exhausting,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: and also I would think scary. I mean, was it
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: scary for you to face the politics of it all
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: and you know, going into you know, dealing with Congress
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: and laws and politicians.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: So we first approached our state Senator, Jennifer boysco here
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: in Virginia and we crafted Adam's Law. And she's a
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: sweetheart and she the first second she heard you know
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: what happened to Adams. She really wanted to reach out
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: because it's a very tight knit community we have here
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: in northern Virginia, and so she was all ears, like,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: you tell me what your bill wants to look like.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: So by having that Virginia, you know, experience already with
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: the Adam's Law passing, when we went to Congress, we
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: kind of knew what they expect, you know, when we
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: met with Tim Kaine and Mark Warner and Donald mckeachen
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: and some of the other representatives. I mean, they were
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: all they'd all known what had happened, and they were
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: wanting to reach out to us sooner. But you know,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: and some of them sent letters of you know, sympathy,
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: you know, and but getting to Stop Campus Hazing Act
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: pass was huge and they were everyone were full, full
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: supporters of the bill and signed on immediately.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Can you tell our listeners about Adam's Law?
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Sure? So, Adam's Law is in the state of Virginia.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: When we crafted Adam's Law, we went through what did
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Adam not have that night that he desperately needed. One
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: was a thorough in person hazing prevention education. So here
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: it is these colleges are just pushing out power points
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: and most kids just you go next slide, next slide,
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: next slide, done right, and they don't read it, they
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: don't understand it. So by making them do an in
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: person you know, education, you actually have to get in
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: front of them and connect with them. And then uh
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: so that was the first thing. Then the second thing
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: is a bias stander awareness portion of the bill that
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: protects the person that calls nine to one one to
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: get out for that individual that's in trouble, even if
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: they're part of the hazen. But you know, just encourage
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: people to do the right thing. And nowadays you can
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: text nine one one, you know, to get somebody help,
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: just tell them the address and there's somebody here and
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: you don't it'll be anonymous. You know, you don't have to,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: you know, make a phone call with them.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Listen even you're saying this, like the whoever's listening right now,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: if it's me listening, I'm thinking, Okay, I got to
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: go get my son, so Zach if something happens, even
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: if you were involved in it. Nine to one one,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: like these are such important things for these kids to
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: know exactly, and the fact that you all, you know,
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: passed Adam's law. These are I think that this documentary,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: this film, the exposure is going to be the reach.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: It's going to be so far and wide, I personally
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: think after watching it, because I was so taken with
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: it myself and want any friend of mine who has
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: any kid going to college, girl or boy by the
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: way to watch it.
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: But those are things that I don't think people do
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: really know about yet, right, and you're making Thank god,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: you're making that difference. I want to ask you a
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: little bit about when you went back to Adam's frat
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: house and after some time in terms of doing that,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: how do you feel about it now? You know, Linda,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: I know you couldn't go there, and I don't know
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: that I could have either as a mother, been in
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: that space. But do you feel like it helped you
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: at all? Eric, do you feel like now looking back
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: at it, it was a good thing to do.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I actually encouraged Dan, you know, to go
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: up to the door and to go to the house
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: and see if they would allow us, you know, to
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: to come in, which I didn't think that they would.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: But stepping back, like just a part of the movie,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: I had no idea where Adam passed, where his body was,
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: and something just took me to that location. We didn't
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: receive the body cam footage from the City of Richmond
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: Police until months later.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine, by the way, how horrible that must
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: have been for you guys to watch.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: It really was, and I can't imagine. I actually gave
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: Dan the film and I didn't watch it, and then
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: he blurred out Adam's image and then it made it
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: somewhat bearable for us to watch. But if we saw
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: Adam's body laying there, we would. So there's a lot
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: of things that you know when when making the movie,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: we trusted Dan a lot.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: He's wonderful. We interviewed him, he's amazing.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: He put a camera crew following us, and we were
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: miked up, you know, throughout these presentations.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Which is scare you guys. I would think that it
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: would be scary for you both, especially after what you've
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: been through. And I'm just going to say you handled
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: it like pros, both of you. Linda, it seems like
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: it was maybe well, especially going I know you didn't
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: want to go into the house, but this is not
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: an easy thing, right, I don't know, I don't think
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: you guys were pressed people before all of this happened,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: So in the best of circumstances, right, it would be hard.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: But you were so open and vulnerable and honest about
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: what happened. And it's going to make a huge difference.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: It really will. I know that it will. You guys.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: That's our hope. That's our hope that people take it
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: seriously and they know what we've experienced and what we've
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: gone through and they don't have to and then they
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: can have a conversation with their kids, you know, about it,
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: and then the kids. The message that we want to
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: convey is that you're not invincible, you know, so be
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: very careful when when you, you know, do dangerous things.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was very taken with the restorative justice program,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: and I think that most of our listeners, I'm hoping
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: we'll have already seen or are going to see the film.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: But that was so impactful. So tell us a little
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: bit about how that came to be. And then I
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: know that the boys sort of dropped off at one point,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: but I thought it was so powerful when they were involved.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about that, either one of you, please.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: So for me, when we were going through the plea agreements.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Alison Martin, the DA in the City of Richmond, said that,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's several things that we wanted. We wanted
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: to read this victim impact statement, and she's like, no,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: I have to read it. You can write it. I'll
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: read it. And I'm like, I'm sure I would have
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: deviated from it, you know, And so I'm kind of
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: glad that she did that. But then I said, well,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: I want them to alocute. I want them to say
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: exactly what they did and didn't do what meaning called
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: nine one one for help, right, and then they left
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: him there, So I mean, I want them to alocute.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: And then she goes, no, no, that doesn't it doesn't
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: work like that. And I mean, I guess I watched
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: too much law in Order, you know, because they always
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: do that, and and it makes the victims feel better
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: that they admit their wrongdoing, right. But then when I
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: understood that we couldn't do that. Just one of the
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: sleepless nights that I had of many after Adam's passing,
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: I was searching the web and I ran across something
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: about restorative justice, and Linda has always been telling me,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: and I felt the same way that we really want
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: to know what Adam's final moments, what his final hours
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: of life were like. And as a parent, you need
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: to know, you need to know. I mean, I mean,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: what were they doing to him? You know what? What? Yeah?
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: And they just get him there to f with them
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: or did they get in there because they really wanted
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: him to be a brother?
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: Those text messages were so disgusting and horrible made me sick, sick.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: That kid flat out Did you go harder on him
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: because he was fat? And he was like no, no,
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: no he didn't. When we got those texts, Oh my.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: God, I felt you know what. Obviously I didn't feel
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: like what you felt, but I wanted when I saw
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: when those texts came out, I just as a viewer
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: for you all to know that the horror when I
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: saw them, and the anger and the like the fury
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: of that. For me, again, it wasn't my son. And
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: I think that this film you guys, will have that
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: effect on so oh many. It was just so disgusting
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: and awful and didn't even feel human, right, just awful, awful.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: Those text messages came out. We unearthed that information when
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: we did the civil suit, so we didn't have that
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: during the criminal which in Virginia you do first and
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: then a civil you know, you do after the criminals done.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: So we didn't have that information and the police didn't
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: you know, suboena their phones or they really didn't do
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: much because in the state of Virginia, it's only a
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: misdemeanor to haye someone to death, it's not a felony.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: So if it was a felony, they would have grabbed phones,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: they would have you know, I mean they didn't even
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: really gather any evidence. They didn't call either. They didn't
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: answer the nine to one one calls. So there's so
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: many things that happened that night that Adam needed help.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: And so what happened was the neighbors next door because
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: of the noise, you know, because they were really loud,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: called three times in place, you know, complaints that you know,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: they need to come over and break up the party,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: and they didn't show up.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Who are you all suing?
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: At this point, everything's done now, so we're actually so
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: I know, there's a part in the movie where Gary says,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: after about five years, you start, you know, things get
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: a little lighter, things get easier. So for us, the
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: first three years. We were dealing with the criminal investigation,
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: we were dealing with the trials, we were dealing with
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: you know, the civil suits and things like that. So
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: up until close to the fourth year, we really hadn't grieved.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: So I think what Gary was meaning is all that
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: stuff is behind you at that point, hopefully at the
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: at the four to five year mark, and then you
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: can start healing. You know, we're trying to heal.
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: So amazing, how do you hold on for four thousand days?
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: Who doesn't give up up?
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Very amazing. The floriditude that they had to continue because
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: they kind of after the second or third Congress that
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: you know, didn't proceed you know, to the floor too.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: They could have just given up.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: And then it wasn't just them, you guys, it was
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: all of you, and it was it was brilliant in
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: the film, the way the days were ticked off, right,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: And you said, I thought that was so powerful, just
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: you know, like it's amazing that they just kept going
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: and going and going and going, and you all kept
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: showing up and showing up and fighting for these kids.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I hope that our listeners when they listen, they've either
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: seen the film. I want them to understand the restorative
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: justice that I hadn't heard of before the film, which
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: is when you all, with these boys that had hazed
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: your son to death, went with you to First of all,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: they had a they had a watch, and then they
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: had to go. They went with you all two different
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: schools to talk about it and to own what they
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: had done, which I thought was so powerful, right, and
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: I thought was and I know that after they didn't
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: have to do that anymore, at least that's at the
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: end of the film that I don't know if they've
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: reached out to you all since, but they stopped showing
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: up and don't. I can't. Obviously, I can't speak to that.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: I don't really know these kids, but I thought it
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: was so powerful to have them there and take responsibility,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: maybe even maybe I don't know, even more so than
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: if they had gone to prison or been punished in
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: a different way.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: You're absolutely right, that was our thinking all along, because
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: once we figured out that it's a misdemeanor even to
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: provide alcohol to a minor, and even if it causes
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: their death in the state of Virginia, it's still a misdemeanor.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: So once it was you know, driven into our brains
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: that they weren't going to go to jail for any
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: years or any length of time. We were like, we
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: need to make some good come out of this bats situation.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: And we had already developed the Love Like Adam foundation,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: and one of our big thing was the presentations. And
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: so by having them come and speak to you know,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: their peers. I mean, because as I'm sitting up there
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: speaking to an audience of young adults.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: Were you nervous to do that? I don't know how
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: much public speaking you had done in the past.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Zero incredible, Yeah, it's yeah, and I'm still not good
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: at it.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: And yes, you most certainly are you most certainly are well?
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you?
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: I mean honestly, there were times where I know you
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: couldn't even speak there. I watched you know that it
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: was hard to get up there. But whatever you whenever
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: you did speak, it was powerful. It always felt like,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: you know, the most powerful moments. And I don't know,
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: you know, listen, I can think that there's I don't
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: even know how to say it. There's nothing good about
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: any of this, but maybe good things will come because
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: of it. You know, I don't know, you guys, because
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I this film touched me in a way that I
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: watch a lot of crime documentaries, you know, for my podcasts,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: and this one is specifically inspiring. Do you guys tell
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: me a little bit about your relationships with the families
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: and has that helped you and the film itself? Making
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: the film with them? Has that helped? And I know
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: nothing is going to heal you completely and you're not
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: going to be able, but does it in moments does
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: it take some of the burden off by sharing?
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, whenever you talk to somebody that's walked in your footsteps,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: you know, and or we're walking in the air footsteps
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: because most of the people we've talked to happen before Adam,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: and so in the Hazing world, Adams somewhat still I
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: guess recent, you know, because it's only been five years,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: but it's yeah, I mean, it's just having that connection
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: with the people and you know that they're able to
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: comfort you and know what you're feeling and what you're
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: going through is amazing. And to have that tight knit
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: group of people is important.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: And they got really really close to Stone Folks's parents
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: because he died like a week after Adam and Julie
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: and Gary. Yeah, I just love being with them. They
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: make me feel so much better.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: They love being with you. They said it, they said,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: how I mean, I'm watching you guys embrace each other.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know. There's so many parts of this that,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: like the heartbreak and then like you know, finding comfort,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: you know, with each other. How was it to watch it?
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: It was hard because it was hard, but also rewarding.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I mean yeah, at the same time, you know, I
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: mean we Dan actually came and to our home and
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: he flew in and previewed it with us because he
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: really wanted to get our take on it. And I mean,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: do you think a big network or a studio would
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: ever do that. I mean, they're just going to pump
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: something out and then go on to the next project.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: But that's why we love Dan, you know, because he
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: wanted iron foot. He wanted to make sure, you know
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: that our message was conveyed, and he did an incredible job.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: And I mean he's a lifelong friend.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's how he speaks of you all as well.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: I got the pleasure of talking to him. You know,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: they are parts of this that and he's such he
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: was so brilliant in creating this. And I say, that
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: for many reasons, one of which is that there were
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: pieces of it that were so personal and that like
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: when you all, Linda, when you described spending time with
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Adam because he was the only child and you were
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: the ones, the one that was playing video games with him,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: and for whatever reason, as a mother, you know, it's you.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: It's very easy to watch I don't know, documentary or
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: a film and watch it and feel but feel outside
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: of it somehow, right, like that's not me. But there
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: were certain parts of this, like that moment when you
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: describe playing those video games, that it felt like I
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: could see that you know me and my son and
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: just made it so personal. It was just beautiful. Those
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: parts of it, you know, were so beautiful just knowing
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: that about him, right, and he was so adorable looking
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: and sweet and handsome, all of that. Yeah, And I
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: guess I hope that that brings you guys. Knowing that
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: this film's out there and other people are going to
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: get to know him and get to know what you
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: all have been through will help somehow, you know, that
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: is my hope for you.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: Everybody says that they wish they've met him, and that.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, I really wish I had met him, I would
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: have hugged him very hard. He seems like the kid
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: that you would just want to hug and that you'd
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: want to hug you.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's his thing was. He was a big hugger,
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: you know. Like his friend said, my last memory about
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: him is, you know, when we were leaving, I just
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: felt like I had to get out of the car
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: to give him one last hug goodbye, you know, And yeah,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: I mean those are crushing. But when he left to
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: go to Richmond, Linda was taking him to Richmond, and
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: I was on a zoom call for work. And then
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: the zoom call ended early, and I heard the garage
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: door and I said, I got to get one more
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: hug goodbye from him, and so I ran downstairs caught
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: him just as he was getting ready to leave. I mean,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't have that memory. I wouldn't have that, you know.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you got to do that.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: I didn't know that would be the last time I'd
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: embrace them.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Hard.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: I cannot even imagine. Do you guys feel like looking
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: at all this, there's anything valuable about Greek Like I
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: know you guys, some of you feel differently, But is
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: there any value to Greek life. Do you would you
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: like to see it abolished completely?
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: I just wanted to be what it's supposed to be. Yeah,
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: it's supposed to be camaraderie, it's supposed to be French brotherhood.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, philanthropy people. Yeah, that's not what it's turned into.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: And it's not been that way for years.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: And even if you can get away with it, who
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: does that? Like some kids are setting each other on fire?
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: I know, then they pushed in the envelope. They're trying to,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: you know, one up each other. And now you have
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: social media, so they put it on social media and
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: then you share it around and what they're doing. And yeah,
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: I mean so for us, we're realists. We know it's
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: not going to go away.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: You know, you don't think it ever will, No, and
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: not unless.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: It happens to somebody important. Death happens to somebody important,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: like a senator's child or grandchild, or that's the way
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: it always works, until it happens to somebody that's important.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: You know, our kids apparently aren't that important, Your kids
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: across the doing business.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: I know, I just I know these are probably just
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: wor but Adam was important. Now that I know him.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: He's important to me, and he's going to be very
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: important too.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: I hope so he will be. He will be, you guys,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: he was a gift to us from God.
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: No, I know you talked about it about all of
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: that was so touch and you couldn't get pregnant, and
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: he was an only child and you're you know, experience
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: with him, and I can't imagine how you all are.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: It hasn't been that long still holding up. But I
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: hope that making the film has helped you, you know,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: and knowing people and getting the support and knowing that
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: this film is going to change things. I don't know
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: how big those changes will be. I'm not saying it's
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: going to you know, abolish hazing, but it's going to
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: change things. I think for parents primarily right like to
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: see it. And then there's especially the ones that are
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: about to send their kids away to college.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Let them have a conversation with their child.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: Have that conversation or they're not coming home.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, And I think most parents don't.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: There might be the most important conversation you have with
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: your child.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I said earlier when I was talking to Gary,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: I said, if I had had if I'd watched the
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: film before. My kids are now adults, they're twenty four
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: and twenty six. But if I had watched it before
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: they went to college, we would have had a very
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: different goodbye talk than what we had. And when they
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: said they wanted to join Greek life, that would have
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: been a very different discussion. And I think a lot
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: of parents will have a very different discussion, you know,
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: with their kids now. So the civil suit is over right,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: it's done, and what do you do? Where are you
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: guys going from here? You've been doing heroic work, So
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: what's what is your next course of action? Here? Are
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: you going to try to take a little break from
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: the limelight.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So, our our hope is to tighten up Adam's
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Law in Virginia because there's there's a couple of loopholes.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: And then also go back to concor go back to
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: the General Assembly in Virginia about making it a felony
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: to hate someone to death or severely bodily injured injure somebody.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: How can that not be a felony if it's if
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: it's under the guy under the heading of hazing, like
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: you could do anything if it's if it's under the
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: heading of a hazing and you murder someone, that's not
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: a felony, that's a misdemeanor.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Look at the the with Adamy, Caleb Wilson, and Louisiana.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: Some of the adults. They were adults, they're like twenty
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: five years old. That fraternity. They punched the pledges and
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: they punched Caleb in his chest so hard that I
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: believe he had a heart attack and you know, and died.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's burner. So but they have this blanket
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: of coverage, you know that they can say it's hazing.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: You know, we were hating him. He wanted to be in.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: He agreed to have it done to them, you know
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: that that kind of stuff, and to get that mindset
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: of you know, even though the individual agreed to, you know, participate,
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: it's still not their fault at all, you know. It's
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: they want to get into a group, an organization, a club,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: a team, whatever it is, and the older members know
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: that and take advantage of it. And every year it
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: continues to get worse and worse. And we're not even
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: talking about the hundreds of thousands of students annually that
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: go through the mental health issues. We passed a bill,
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: we supported a family's UH bill that requires all Virginia
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: colleges if a student comes to them and says, I've
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: been hazed, they have to provide mental health services for
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: that student. So the state of Virginia, you know, at
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: least the higher education that's that's one that that's a
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: big step.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Could the kid go there anonymously and say this is
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: the frat and is the university then required to take action?
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was that Okay, So that was part
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: of Adam's law, or that was part of the of.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: The a separate a separate bill that was brought to
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: the floor by a different family. But we supported the
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: measure and and and we already knew all the lawmakers,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: you know, most of them at least, and so we
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: you know, got them to get on board with it.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: But they absolutely Yeah, So it's not part of Adam's law.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: But the if a student comes to counselors or staff
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: at a university or college, UH, they're required by law
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: to provide them mental health services, someone to talk to
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: about what happened. And then from there it's up to
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: the university and the student to proceed with charges or
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: investigations or whatever. So we're hoping that you know, that
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: starts the conversation of what happened, and then you know
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: they can do an investigation. And then the last bill
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: that we just worked on passing in Virginia is it's huge.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: So it requires the State of Virginia, both public and
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: private schools, to provide a hazing prevention and education for
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: students in ninth or tenth grade.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: That's incredible, it is it's.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: The only it's the only state that has this law.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: And to make sure that it gets implemented, we wrote
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: it into the standard of Learning, which is standardized testing
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: that every student takes at the end of the year
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: to show they went over these materials. So at the
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: end of the year to gauge where your child is performing,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: the State of Virginia has something called standard of Learning,
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: So you take a generalized test that went over all
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: the things that you've learned that quarter that year. And
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: so there's questions on that test about hazing prevention. It's mandatory,
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: so it's gonna it makes them teach it, you know,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: and not because I mean, honestly, the health health teachers
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: there's I mean, they're already up here with all the
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: materials that they have to teach, and we're piled more
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: on their plate, so most are choosing to teach it
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: in ninth grade. So anyway, this is huge because now
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: you know, we provided Lovelike. Adam Foundation created and provided
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: a curriculum for those students and for the school districts
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: in Virginia, and we'll offer it to every state for free,
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: and we will go through and will tailor it to
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: you know, the laws of those states, and we'll do
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: it all for free if they if somebody wants it.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's incredible.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been talking to other states, Ohio and North Carolina,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: West Virginia, Washington about you know, crafting something for them
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: and they can co brand it and and take our
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: materials and we offer the movie Death of a Pledge
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: because that's part of the I don't know, I mean,
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: you need to see both sides of it. You need
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: to see the family side, but then you also need
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: to see from people that at Hayes, you know, that
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: their opinion on what's going on, because nobody's ever really
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: talked to them. And that's kind of the restorative justice
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: that we were talking about. That's where you get both
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: the defendant and the planet together or the victim and
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: you talk about what happened that night, or you talk
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: about the incident. I don't I don't think it was
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: great for wrongful death, but it gives each of us
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: a form to, you know, get off our chests the
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: things that were really bothering us. And it's also a
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: big healing moment for both sides.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: When you say for both sides, these kids, I do
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: I have to tell myself also, but they were you know,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: the boys, their brain doesn't develop until twenty six or something.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Their frontal lowe, right, and so maybe there's some grace
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: and that there's no I don't know. I'm sure you
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: guys can't give grace at all. But you're you're speaking
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: like there's some that these boys that were there and
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: contributed to the death of your son, you know something
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: out of this as well, the fact do you actually
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: care about that.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: They had a snow we had him believing that you know,
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: they were remorseful and they were.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: I didn't get him help or I'm sorry I didn't,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: you know, And when you see when you really get
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: the information and ye really get the truth, you know,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: based on the text messages he was lying on the
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: floor dying and they're making fun of him.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Did they ever just sit down with you guys alone
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: or say anything to justice? Well, we didn't see that, right,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: We saw them in the schools. We saw you go
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: through the movie theater and say thank you guys, thanks
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: to you guys for being here. But I don't we didn't.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: I don't remember seeing that one on one.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the restorative Justice was about three months before that
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: part that you're talking about in the movie, and there weren't.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: It's the court that does it. So it's very structured
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: and you can't have cameras there and so none you
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: can't even talk about what you talked about, you know,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: you can just talk about the generalization of what happened.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: So there's there's a restorative justice person there that facilitates,
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: and then there's two community members, at least in ours
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: there were, and then there's each the young man, you
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: know that, the president, the big brother, the pledge master.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: Each one came in separately and they didn't have their
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: parents with them. So I give them, you know, props
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: for that to coming in and manning up and you know,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: doing it on their own. And then there was Linda,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: myself and my niece Courtney White, and so we had
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: a bunch of questions, and you know, they also got
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: to talk, you know, to us and ask questions and
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: say things, and they've everybody's lawyered up.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Did they have questions? What kind of questions that they
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: have had for you?
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Well, when we first started asking them questions, one started
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: lying and we immediately shot it down by letting them know,
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: you know, we know this is what happened. We have
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: several people that said that, and then they kind of
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: backtracked and like, oh no, they kind of know about
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of these things, so I better tell the truth,
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: you know. And but I think some of the most
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: of the things that they said to us were we've
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: lawyered up. We can't really you know, say anything to
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: you before this. So we thank you for doing this
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: because it gives us an avenue to tell you that
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: we're sorry that we you know, that this happened and
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: it wasn't our intent.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: And Linda, you don't believe them, you think you were snowed.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: I still yeah, I still don't. I still don't know.
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: Or was ja Jason as a president and he's supposed
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: to be sober that night. He said he was ober
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: that night. But I don't hear anything about Jason through
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: this whole thing. It's like he wasn't there. And I
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: know Andrew left him.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Andrews is big brother. But Jason was there the whole night,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: and he was sober the whole night, and he saw
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: what was happening to Adam, and he was one of
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: the ones that helped him from outside when his legs
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: were buckling, and then saw him passed out on the floor.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: And he claimed that he watched him for a few hours.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: And I mean, and then when they heard him snoring.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: You know, Adam didn't snore, the nineteen year old kid,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: you know, and he just thought he was sleeping, and
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: then they left him. So I mean, and VCU was
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: a huge medical school and nursing and doctors, and and
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: I asked, I said, are any of you trained in
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: you know, the medical field to make the determination that
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: this person doesn't need help, they're going to sleep it off.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: And all of them are like, no, no, And I said,
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: the bottom line is is that you know, we're stuck
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: living with just the rest of our lives. And you know,
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Adam doesn't even have a life anymore. You know, he's
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: not gonna graduate, he's not gonna, you know, get a
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: rewarding job. He's not gonna have a wife, he's not
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: gonna have kids. We're not gonna have grandkids. I mean,
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: the whole just because of one night of somebody's fun,
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: you know, or somebody recklessly taking advantage of somebody, and
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: we wanted to stop, you know, and it's happening so
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: much now we just hear about it. And maybe it's
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: because we're pulled into that that that world, you know,
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: but now we're hearing horrific things, you know that is
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: similar to what happened to Adam. And then just dumb
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: things like parents and grandparents or alumni of that fraternity
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: so they did I'm press charges or they didn't do
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: a full investigation or just I mean it's just it's
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: and some of these kids have permanent damage, and it's like, no,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: this is how we correct you know, our curriculum goes
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: through improvement science, which is like root cause, so you
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: figure out the root cause of why this is happening.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's traditions, it's culture, it's you know, just bad,
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: bad behavior and Once you come up with a root
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: cause of the bad behavior, then you create an action
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: plan to try and you know, implement changing it. And
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: the only way that we know how is by telling
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: the story and by teaching kids younger, you know, ninth
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: maybe tenth grade or even middle school about the dangers.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: And then when they keep hearing this reinforce messaging by
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: the time they get to college and be like, I've
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: heard about this hazing stuff and this is sounds stupid.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be Hayes and I don't want
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: to haze anyone else. I didn't like it when it
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: happened to me. And that's when we look at domestic
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: violence and sexual assault. We didn't like it when it
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: happened to us, So why would we do it to
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: somebody else? Right, I mean, it's it's you got to
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: but it takes everybody. It takes the parents, the individuals,
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: the schools, the alumni, and the alumni are just as bad.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, they're forty fifty year old men that are
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: acting like you know, they're they're fifteen again, and it's
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: it's nuts.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Eric, What do you how do our listeners, how can
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: they help? How do they get involved? With the foundation.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: Any links that you can tell us about or where
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: could they go on social media?
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so first off, if you want access to a
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: death of a pledge, which is the twenty two minute video,
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's on the PBS website, so we partner.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: It's on YouTube also, but that uh PBS has a
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: YouTube page, so yeah, you can access it either way.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: But I encourage people to sit down with their you know,
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: their their kids and and it's not it's not a
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: hard watch. It's sad, but it's it'll open up the conversation.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: It's condensed. I mean, I think, yeah, I mean it's
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: extremely powerful. Okay, so that was the first thing. The
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: second thing is on our website. You know, there's all
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: kinds of educational information.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Can you tell us your website?
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: Sure, it's www dot Loveligadam dot com. And all of
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: our social media. You can follow us on social media.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: We don't put out a ton of posts, so we're
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: not bogging down your feed with a bunch of useless things.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: But we're on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and that's love like Adam.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: And then we used his picture, his graduation picture. You know,
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: so there's some sense of consistency as far as the
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: branding goes, so you know you're in the right place.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: But but yeah, and if you need resources or if
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: you need help, I mean we're always there. Our emails
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: are are are right there on the page, our contact information,
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: and I mean we want to be in this with everybody.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: And you know, we we we come out and present.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: We've been in Tennessee, South Carolina, Virginia of course, so
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, we've been in Ohio. We've been in a
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: lot of different states, and we're not afraid to travel
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: and we we just we just want the bad behavior
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: to stop.
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we need at the West Coast, really good. We do.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: There's collects over there there in trouble.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys, I maybe not how many times can
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm sure you hear it every day. I couldn't
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: be more sorry. I'm happy to have now seen a
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: little bit of your beautiful son, know a little bit
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: about him. I don't. I know, there's no nothing I
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: can say, but you are doing good work, and I
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: know that this film will change things. It changed me.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: And again I don't have the kids that age, but
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: if I did, and any of my friends who have
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: kids that age. I'm going to say this is required
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: viewing you before you send them off. They have to
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: see this, and so you know, I hope that that
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: helps you, guys. I can't imagine much does help, but
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking of you all and praying for you.
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I really appreciate it.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: Thankfulle is the same age as Adam.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my son. Right, I have a twenty four year
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: ol daughter and a twenty six year old son.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, Adam would be twenty well maybe twenty five October.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, both of them would have You could just his
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: sweetness just emanated from him.
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: Good.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm thinking about you guys. Okay, please please take
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: care of yourselves.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for everyone listening.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Okay, you guys. That's it for this episode of Dirty Rush.
• 45:16
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• 45:19
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