Latest / UK Column Radio / Is Paying for Air the New Normal? | Jerm Warfare

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Is Paying for Air the New Normal? | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

0:03
Speaker 1: Thank you.
0:30
Speaker 2: My name is Jerm. This is Jerm Warfare, the battle
0:33
Speaker 2: of ideas. Last time we spoke, we were standing on
0:38
Speaker 2: the hoe. And now I'm back in my studio in
0:43
Speaker 2: South Africa after a lengthy trip home. And I haven't
0:48
Speaker 2: stopped talking about this, but I can't get past this.
0:53
Speaker 2: The fact that when my friend dropped me off at Heathrow,
0:56
Speaker 2: yet to pay a drop-off charge, I've never in my
0:58
Speaker 2: life heard of that or seen that.
1:00
Speaker 1: And apparently this is normal. Look, Britain is the asset-stripping nation.
1:09
Speaker 1: It does everything it can to pull as much money
1:13
Speaker 1: out of people as possible. In fact, this week, Jeremy,
1:16
Speaker 1: is the Labour Party conference, and Andy Burnham is claiming
1:20
Speaker 1: that he's got a reinvigorate social care and whatnot. But
1:25
Speaker 1: there's a whole big debate between, in fact, it's been
1:30
Speaker 1: a massive division point between older people and younger people.
1:34
Speaker 1: And the reason I believe that this division point has
1:38
Speaker 1: been created is is because along in parallel with this,
1:43
Speaker 1: there are multiple efforts, there have been multiple efforts to
1:46
Speaker 1: get a assisted dying bill through. And really what the
1:49
Speaker 1: attempt here is to put in younger people's minds, the
1:53
Speaker 1: idea that older people don't deserve to be on the
1:56
Speaker 1: planet because they are simply sucking the life out of them,
1:59
Speaker 1: the lifeblood out of them. And so the narrative goes
2:01
Speaker 1: that older people require social care, younger people have to
2:06
Speaker 1: pay for that social care and that that's unfair in
2:09
Speaker 1: some way. Now, I think it is unfair because those
2:12
Speaker 1: older people have been paying into the tax system for
2:15
Speaker 1: their entire lives. And then what happens when they get
2:19
Speaker 1: to a certain age is they are asset stripped by
2:21
Speaker 1: the state to pay for social care because the state
2:24
Speaker 1: didn't make proper preparation for this. But what younger people
2:30
Speaker 1: don't seem to be able to grasp is Because they
2:33
Speaker 1: think that this is a good idea, that people should
2:36
Speaker 1: be paying for their social care when they get older.
2:39
Speaker 1: What younger people aren't grasping is that actually that's their
2:41
Speaker 1: inheritance that's being stolen. And so it doesn't matter whether
2:45
Speaker 1: they're paying it out of taxes or whether they're paying
2:47
Speaker 1: it out of inheritance, they're still paying for it. And
2:51
Speaker 1: there's no getting away from that. It's an incredible psychological
2:54
Speaker 1: operation that's been done on the young to convince them
2:58
Speaker 1: that the old are a burden. And ultimately the goal
3:03
Speaker 1: here is to persuade them that really the old should
3:05
Speaker 1: just be killed off.
3:07
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it's funny you say that because there's
3:10
Speaker 2: an interesting dichotomy.
3:11
Speaker 1: Sorry to start so darkly, but that's one of the
3:12
Speaker 1: things going on.
3:13
Speaker 2: No, but there's an interesting dichotomy there because you say
3:15
Speaker 2: the elderly are a burden. And if you look at
3:17
Speaker 2: the increase in abortions, the young are also a burden.
3:21
Speaker 2: So there's this weird polarization of young and old. And
3:26
Speaker 2: basically everybody in the middle who's a useless eater is
3:29
Speaker 2: essentially the desirables.
3:32
Speaker 1: But the point that you started off with was the
3:35
Speaker 1: fact that people are being charged for dropping people off
3:38
Speaker 1: at airports. The fact of the matter is, particularly the
3:42
Speaker 1: middle classes in the UK are absolutely being asset stripped
3:46
Speaker 1: at every opportunity. So various people have done various calculations,
3:51
Speaker 1: but how much of our incomes we actually pay in
3:54
Speaker 1: some form of tax. And I've seen various estimates, but
3:58
Speaker 1: around 80% seems not unrealistic. by the time you take
4:02
Speaker 1: an income tax and VAT and all the various taxes
4:06
Speaker 1: on alcohol and petrol and fuel and all these kinds
4:09
Speaker 1: of things. And so, you know, we have seen this
4:15
Speaker 1: massive flow of cash from ordinary people to the oligarch class,
4:20
Speaker 1: the Epstein class, whatever you want to call them. But,
4:23
Speaker 1: you know, aside from that, we are, the vast majority
4:28
Speaker 1: of our incomes is going to pay for the wars
4:33
Speaker 1: and that's a realization people need to grasp, I think.
4:39
Speaker 2: But I mean, I don't get it though. Are people
4:42
Speaker 2: not standing up against it or are they just entirely demoralized?
4:48
Speaker 1: Charles, answer that.
4:51
Speaker 3: Well, if we just go back one, there is nothing
4:53
Speaker 3: normal about paying to go into an airport. So let's
4:58
Speaker 3: just clear that.
5:00
Speaker 2: Okay, it's been normalized.
5:02
Speaker 3: It has been normalized, but there is still nothing normal
5:05
Speaker 3: about it.
5:07
Speaker 2: But it is pretty staggering.
5:09
Speaker 3: I might be wrong, but I think Bristol Airport was
5:12
Speaker 3: one of the first to do that. And I'm not
5:15
Speaker 3: sure quite which order it went in. It may have
5:17
Speaker 3: happened at the same time. But they are so overzealous
5:21
Speaker 3: with it that when you are within.
5:25
Speaker 3: I don't know, say 200 yards of the airport building.
5:29
Speaker 3: Because obviously the thing is, you know, if you're going
5:32
Speaker 3: to take someone and it's going to be five pounds
5:34
Speaker 3: or more to drop them off, you just say, well,
5:35
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, we'll just stop a little bit
5:37
Speaker 3: short and I'll let you out here and you just walk.
5:40
Speaker 3: And at Bristol, they have signs saying you may not stop.
5:46
Speaker 3: If your vehicle stops at all, you'll find a hundred pounds,
5:49
Speaker 3: 200 pounds or something.
5:50
Speaker 2: And there are cameras. I saw a lot of cameras everywhere.
5:53
Speaker 1: Yeah.
5:55
Speaker 2: So it is, yeah, it's sort of grim.
6:00
Speaker 3: I mean, at the same time, I suppose, I hope
6:05
Speaker 3: that that system is tested in that I hope there
6:07
Speaker 3: are a significant number of people who just simply.
6:12
Speaker 2: Do do that and whatnot.
6:13
Speaker 3: But on the part, on the actual drop off, if
6:16
Speaker 3: you enter the thing, you can't, unless you are prepared
6:19
Speaker 3: to break the barrier, in which case, you're asking for
6:24
Speaker 3: trouble of a different kind, then you're stuck. You cannot
6:28
Speaker 3: get out without paying it. So there's no, you know,
6:30
Speaker 3: I think what is significant about all of this is
6:33
Speaker 3: there's no trust. If they were able to present you
6:36
Speaker 3: with a case for, yeah, well, look, we're doing this
6:40
Speaker 3: because we're really going to improve such and such a
6:43
Speaker 3: thing with the proceeds of what we're taking. And I
6:46
Speaker 3: think this goes back to, this is exactly what Mike's
6:49
Speaker 3: talking about. I mean, there's really, in any of these things,
6:53
Speaker 3: The theft is conducted with no incentive, no explanation. There's
6:59
Speaker 3: no idea that what it is you're paying into is
7:03
Speaker 3: going to improve anyone's lot. And the same goes for
7:06
Speaker 3: airport parking. No airport, as far as I'm aware, has
7:10
Speaker 3: said they haven't put up big billboards saying.
7:13
Speaker 2: We're going to make life so much better for you.
7:15
Speaker 2: We're going to make the airport experience much better.
7:17
Speaker 3: And in order for that to happen, we're going to
7:20
Speaker 3: ask you to pay what we consider to be a
7:22
Speaker 3: reasonable figure for you to park. That's the way in
7:26
Speaker 3: which we're going to do this. But no, it's not
7:28
Speaker 3: just that. They don't have any demonstration of it in
7:32
Speaker 3: exactly the same way that I think much of the
7:34
Speaker 3: tax that's hoovered out of one's pocket. There's never any
7:38
Speaker 3: pretense that this is going to be for anyone's betterment.
7:42
Speaker 3: So it just goes ahead. And moreover, you're not even
7:47
Speaker 3: trusted to do it on an honesty basis. you have
7:53
Speaker 3: to have barriers to make sure that the money is
7:55
Speaker 3: properly extorted from you, or you have a, you know, you,
7:58
Speaker 3: you are told you must, you must cough up a
8:00
Speaker 3: hundred pounds or 200 pounds, exactly the same way in
8:03
Speaker 3: which the tax system works. I mean, even the, um,
8:06
Speaker 3: Revenue and Customs here even introduced a sort of points system.
8:10
Speaker 3: If you submit something late, you get points.
8:14
Speaker 2: I think I may have mentioned this before.
8:15
Speaker 3: So the relationship between, obviously in this case, not just
8:21
Speaker 3: state and individual, but between any body that wants to
8:25
Speaker 3: take money off you and the individual is one of abuse.
8:30
Speaker 3: And that's the bit that people don't see. So to
8:33
Speaker 3: the question about whether people are, what was it, demoralized or,
8:37
Speaker 3: I forgot what was the other half of the question,
8:39
Speaker 3: demoralized or what it sounded like.
8:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, or are they standing up to it? Okay.
8:45
Speaker 3: I don't think there's very much standing up going on.
8:46
Speaker 3: I think it's pretty staggering. When we talk, when we
8:50
Speaker 3: have these conversations, it seems amazing that anyone can have
8:53
Speaker 3: been carried along by the tide. But this is exactly
8:55
Speaker 3: the problem is that the moment you say, well, you know,
8:58
Speaker 3: you do pay for parking at airports that has been normalised,
9:02
Speaker 3: then you are on a slippery slope and people don't
9:04
Speaker 3: stop to think how absolutely outrageous it is that we're
9:07
Speaker 3: already paying for all sorts of other things that we
9:10
Speaker 3: should never, ever have had to pay for. And unfortunately,
9:14
Speaker 3: whilst I suspect when this sort of stuff first started,
9:17
Speaker 3: I mean, Mike and I were talking about this the
9:19
Speaker 3: other day, but the origins of the first sort of
9:22
Speaker 3: parking charges, what a joke, what an outrage. Why would
9:25
Speaker 3: anyone think it was appropriate to ever ask you for
9:27
Speaker 3: money to park a car?
9:29
Speaker 2: So....
9:31
Speaker 3: I think, sadly, we're far beyond that point. Whether people
9:36
Speaker 3: are actually seriously demoralized by it, I don't know.
9:40
Speaker 2: And the reason I say that is- No, not by it. No, sorry.
9:43
Speaker 2: Not by it, but just demoralized in general. Oh, and therefore, right. Yes, okay.
9:47
Speaker 3: Well, that was the wider point I was going to make. Yes,
9:50
Speaker 3: I think I'm set against all the other things that
9:53
Speaker 3: people might be demoralized by, whether or not they're having
9:57
Speaker 3: to pay five pounds to pick someone up or drop
9:59
Speaker 3: them off at an airport there's a bit of a
10:03
Speaker 3: drop in.
10:03
Speaker 2: The ocean, really. I'm just looking at other strange taxes
10:09
Speaker 2: in the UK, and I'll ignore the historical ones because
10:13
Speaker 2: there are some very funny ones. There was a tax...
10:17
Speaker 2: if you had a beard. Did you know that? Henry
10:21
Speaker 2: VII and later Peter the Great in Russia taxed facial hair.
10:26
Speaker 2: But let's go to the more modern ones. There's a
10:29
Speaker 2: pasty tax. George Osborne's plan to charge VAT on hot
10:34
Speaker 2: pasties caused such an uproar.
10:36
Speaker 1: I think you need to pronounce that correctly. I mean,
10:39
Speaker 1: I realize you're South African, German, and therefore you're illiterate, but,
10:43
Speaker 1: you know, this pasty.
10:44
Speaker 2: How do you pronounce it?
10:46
Speaker 1: Pasty.
10:47
Speaker 2: What is a pasty anyway? I don't even know what
10:48
Speaker 2: that is.
10:49
Speaker 1: My goodness, you're in Devon and you didn't get a pasty? Well,
10:52
Speaker 1: that's shocking.
10:53
Speaker 2: Is it a kind of pie?
10:54
Speaker 1: What is it?
10:54
Speaker 2: What is it? Is it like a pastry, like a pie?
11:03
Speaker 3: Of a kind we're probably all on thin ice here
11:07
Speaker 3: because anyone listening in in Devon or Cornwall yeah you
11:11
Speaker 3: didn't even give me one no I know I know
11:14
Speaker 3: well I mean deliberately because obviously now you have to
11:16
Speaker 3: come back Yes, I mean, a pie is probably the
11:22
Speaker 3: simplest way of explaining it. I mean, a hot filling
11:26
Speaker 3: encased in pastry. But the critical thing about a pasty
11:29
Speaker 3: is the crimp along the top. So rather than the
11:33
Speaker 3: pie being in two bits with a crimp around the edge,
11:35
Speaker 3: around the top.
11:37
Speaker 2: I will say, and I've been boasting about this, and Mike,
11:39
Speaker 2: you didn't introduce me to this. Charles did. Clotted cream.
11:45
Speaker 2: That was remarkable cream.
11:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, but don't even go there because there's an argument,
11:51
Speaker 1: a war even could be argued between Devon and Cornwall
11:55
Speaker 1: about which goes on first, the clotted cream or the jam.
11:58
Speaker 3: Luckily, the way he encountered it was in a completely
12:01
Speaker 3: non-controversial way because it was on top of an apple crumble.
12:05
Speaker 3: There was not a scone inside, so we were okay.
12:07
Speaker 3: While having a delicious ale out there, Yes, exactly. And
12:14
Speaker 3: it was all properly done.
12:15
Speaker 2: It was very good. Despite all those taxes and absurdities,
12:18
Speaker 2: there are some good things worth fighting for and preserving
12:22
Speaker 2: like clotted cream and ale. Yes. But I mean, yes,
12:27
Speaker 2: another one, right? On the way to the airport. So
12:30
Speaker 2: my flight was at 6.30 in the morning and we
12:32
Speaker 2: were 150 kilometers away from Heathrow. So it was a very,
12:35
Speaker 2: very early morning. And he stopped to put air into
12:39
Speaker 2: his tires. And you had to pay for this. You
12:41
Speaker 2: had to pay for air. I've never in my life
12:44
Speaker 2: seen this. Apparently, this is normal. A friend of mine
12:46
Speaker 2: in Canada says, oh, they do it there too. It's
12:48
Speaker 2: not even something that has entered my radar that you
12:51
Speaker 2: would pay to put air in your car tire. And
12:55
Speaker 2: on top of that, he gets given seven minutes. The
12:58
Speaker 2: machine counts down before he runs out.
13:02
Speaker 1: How long do you need to put air in your tires? No, no, no.
13:06
Speaker 2: What I mean is there's this whole little cottage industry
13:09
Speaker 2: around putting air into your tires. It's absurd.
13:13
Speaker 3: I'm waiting for somebody to come up with a business
13:15
Speaker 3: plan where you fill your tires with carbon dioxide and
13:18
Speaker 3: you get paid to do so.
13:20
Speaker 2: Right. Oh, but somebody said to me, oh, but Jerm,
13:23
Speaker 2: what are you moaning about? You can circumvent that. You
13:26
Speaker 2: can get a compressor and keep it in your car,
13:28
Speaker 2: but that's not really the point.
13:30
Speaker 1: Hmm.
13:32
Speaker 2: I mean, you can buy that. Yeah, you can, but
13:34
Speaker 2: now you're buying a product.
13:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, but the price of fuel these days, you would
13:39
Speaker 1: be paying more in fuel to carry the compressor around
13:42
Speaker 1: than you would be to use the compressor at the
13:44
Speaker 1: filling station.
13:48
Speaker 3: It is, I have to say, seen through your eyes,
13:51
Speaker 3: those of not just a visitor, but a visitor with
13:54
Speaker 3: a critical eye and a visitor from somewhere that is
13:57
Speaker 3: markedly different from here. It is quite embarrassing, I have
14:01
Speaker 3: to say. Obviously, I drove you around the countryside a
14:04
Speaker 3: little bit. We saw some good stuff, in fact, and
14:06
Speaker 3: we did. I think we made the best of it.
14:07
Speaker 3: It's not embarrassing, Charles. No, sorry, but hold on. It's
14:09
Speaker 3: not embarrassing. I'll tell you why.
14:11
Speaker 2: It's a warning sign because that's coming our way. Well, yes.
14:17
Speaker 2: I mean, we'll see about that. I wonder.
14:20
Speaker 3: You see, this is what I find so fascinating because
14:23
Speaker 3: we could have had this conversation 20 years or.
14:26
Speaker 2: Say 30 years ago.
14:28
Speaker 3: And, and yet, I don't think there's much evidence of
14:31
Speaker 3: there having been a big swing, you know, in South Africa,
14:35
Speaker 3: because of, you know, to your point about it being
14:37
Speaker 3: in effect, a broken system, and therefore to implement the
14:42
Speaker 3: types of things that that that now are sadly taken
14:44
Speaker 3: for granted here will not take for granted, but sort
14:46
Speaker 3: of an accepted part of life. I'm not so sure
14:50
Speaker 3: that they will really come to Africa. I mean, it's
14:53
Speaker 3: going to be a very interesting conversation to continue to have.
14:56
Speaker 3: But no, I think what I mean from the sense
14:59
Speaker 3: of embarrassment is that there's absolutely no indication anywhere really
15:05
Speaker 3: in the way that this country operates now that anyone
15:07
Speaker 3: is looking out to help you. As you say, you
15:11
Speaker 3: turn up to the garage. In days gone by, if
15:14
Speaker 3: you turned up and the air compressor was there, the
15:18
Speaker 3: whole point, they're providing a service.
15:20
Speaker 2: They're not now.
15:21
Speaker 3: They're providing a charging mechanism. And it's the same with everything.
15:25
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter what it is. Absolutely everything.
15:27
Speaker 1: Even.
15:29
Speaker 3: This ridiculous electric vehicle thing. Come and buy your electricity.
15:35
Speaker 3: We're going to incentivize you so far, and then we're
15:37
Speaker 3: going to charge you 69p per kilowatt hour to charge
15:41
Speaker 3: your car, which we've convinced you is the right thing
15:43
Speaker 3: to do. There's nothing benevolent or good-natured or.
15:50
Speaker 2: I don't know.
15:51
Speaker 3: I'm sort of short of words on that. But I
15:53
Speaker 3: think you see what I mean. Whereas I think in
15:55
Speaker 3: South Africa, if you turn up, you turn up to
15:57
Speaker 3: a petrol station. And yeah, of course, you accept you're
16:00
Speaker 3: going to have to pay for the fuel. But if
16:03
Speaker 3: anything else to be done, windscreen cleaned, if you do
16:07
Speaker 3: need a bit of air in your tires, no one's
16:08
Speaker 3: going to say, right, there you go.
16:09
Speaker 2: That's 500 grand. I mean, this is not going to happen.
16:13
Speaker 2: Hold on. You don't have staff working outside at a
16:18
Speaker 2: petrol station? No, no, no.
16:19
Speaker 1: At a petrol station, it's all self-service. It used to
16:22
Speaker 1: be when I was a kid, we used to go
16:25
Speaker 1: to the petrol station. The guy came out, the owner
16:28
Speaker 1: came out, filled the car up, and there was a
16:32
Speaker 1: chat and conversation. It actually was part of community building,
16:36
Speaker 1: and then they brought in self-service pumps. And now you're
16:42
Speaker 1: lucky if they grunt at you when you swipe your card.
16:45
Speaker 1: That's increasingly what happens. And if you try to pay cash,
16:49
Speaker 1: I mean, then they scowl.
16:50
Speaker 2: So, yeah.
16:52
Speaker 3: Self-service pumps were, which of course for, I can't remember
16:56
Speaker 3: how long, were a complete disaster because they didn't automatically
16:58
Speaker 3: click off.
17:00
Speaker 2: So people were forever.
17:01
Speaker 3: I mean, I can absolutely remember overflowing a tank. It's
17:05
Speaker 3: just not paying attention because you don't work there. It's
17:08
Speaker 3: not your job. In the same way that if you
17:10
Speaker 3: are absolutely forced to check yourself out in a shop,
17:15
Speaker 3: you know, where you have to do the beep beep
17:16
Speaker 3: thing yourself, it takes about 20 minutes because how do
17:19
Speaker 3: you do it?
17:20
Speaker 2: No one trains you. Well, since I'm already a China Max,
17:24
Speaker 2: I might as well own it and say that I
17:26
Speaker 2: saw huge numbers of cameras when I was in the UK.
17:29
Speaker 2: That for me also was stock. I wasn't expecting that
17:34
Speaker 2: many cameras everywhere.
17:36
Speaker 3: And it's only a matter of time before you get
17:38
Speaker 3: billed at the end of the day by camera. These
17:41
Speaker 3: cameras have taken footage of you, therefore you owe X.
17:46
Speaker 2: It's going to happen.
17:47
Speaker 1: Well, now who's just announced it? I can't remember which
17:50
Speaker 1: supermarket has just announced it. that they've gone into partnership
17:54
Speaker 1: I can't remember who they've gone into partnership so I'm
17:56
Speaker 1: not doing very well here but anyway the point is
17:59
Speaker 1: you will just oh it's Revolut has gone into one
18:02
Speaker 1: of the supermarkets and not only will they have automated
18:06
Speaker 1: tills but you don't have to swipe a card you
18:08
Speaker 1: just facial recognition is it so you basically just sort
18:13
Speaker 1: out what's in your trolley and walk away so yeah this.
18:18
Speaker 2: Is the direction Look, I don't want to sound like
18:20
Speaker 2: I'm dunking on the UK. I think it's beautiful. No, no, no,
18:23
Speaker 2: you should. No, no, no, I'm a foreigner. I'm a foreigner.
18:27
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that.
18:28
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, sure. But like with a host of other countries, Jarm,
18:33
Speaker 1: it's wonderful, except for the people. And I don't mean
18:35
Speaker 1: that British people are horrible, but the fact that we're
18:38
Speaker 1: just accepting this. I find difficult. So, you know, we
18:44
Speaker 1: need to recognize what we have and fight for what
18:47
Speaker 1: we've got and fight for actually a return. You know,
18:51
Speaker 1: a few years ago, the word that was being bandied
18:55
Speaker 1: around was nostalgia. That if we looked back at the
18:58
Speaker 1: way things were, we were just being nostalgic. In fact,
19:01
Speaker 1: we were looking back at a system that was better.
19:04
Speaker 1: You know, how was it that we had an economy
19:07
Speaker 1: that allowed.
19:09
Speaker 1: A small business to own a petrol station and they
19:15
Speaker 1: were able to staff the pumps and have somebody come
19:18
Speaker 1: and fill your car up for you and take the
19:20
Speaker 1: money from the car window. How was it they were
19:24
Speaker 1: able to afford to do that in that economy? In
19:27
Speaker 1: this modern economy, apparently we can't afford to do that
19:30
Speaker 1: and everything is reduced to the lowest common denominator. And
19:34
Speaker 1: how is it that we've allowed our economy to get
19:37
Speaker 1: to that point?
19:38
Speaker 2: That's it right there, reduced to the lowest common denominator.
19:42
Speaker 2: I was trying to think of the thread, and that's
19:44
Speaker 2: precisely what it is. Everything in modernity, not just in
19:48
Speaker 2: the UK, but I think across. the world, is about
19:51
Speaker 2: reducing to the lowest common denominator. There's no more exclusivity
19:58
Speaker 2: in high society, and there really should be. Why must
20:01
Speaker 2: everything be on the lowest level? There is this sort
20:04
Speaker 2: of inner desire. To have some class in some things
20:13
Speaker 2: like the theater, for example, right? I've argued this in
20:15
Speaker 2: the past that if you go to the theater, respect
20:18
Speaker 2: the theater, respect its historical legacy, you know, and don't
20:23
Speaker 2: wear shorts, you know, and a t-shirt to the theater.
20:26
Speaker 2: At least show some respect for that. If you go
20:29
Speaker 2: to a funeral, you know, there is a kind of
20:31
Speaker 2: decorum that is still traditional. It doesn't make sense. Like,
20:34
Speaker 2: why would you dress up? But it's just something that
20:38
Speaker 2: you do, and you don't need to reduce it to
20:40
Speaker 2: the lowest common denominator, is my point. And I hate
20:45
Speaker 2: the fact that everything is exactly that, it's being reduced.
20:48
Speaker 2: And I think that also adds to demoralization, in my opinion.
20:55
Speaker 2: But I have no evidence, though. That's just a working theory,
20:57
Speaker 2: so you can go with me on this. Charles, you're smiling.
21:05
Speaker 2: You can disagree. I don't mind. No, no, no, no, no.
21:08
Speaker 2: I'm not going to disagree.
21:09
Speaker 3: I suppose all pedants there will have been slightly twitching
21:16
Speaker 3: in their chairs because, for example, I absolutely take your
21:21
Speaker 3: point and I agree with you in terms of.
21:27
Speaker 2: You know, respect. But look, hang on, hang on, hang on.
21:34
Speaker 3: But, you know, for example, what somebody wears to a
21:38
Speaker 3: funeral might indicate respect or lack thereof.
21:45
Speaker 2: But it might not.
21:47
Speaker 3: This is the thing you cannot, you cannot really tell.
21:51
Speaker 3: what it is that somebody is thinking or putting out there.
21:57
Speaker 3: Just because I would wear such and such a thing
22:00
Speaker 3: to a funeral does not mean at all that my
22:04
Speaker 3: wearing of that trumps somebody else's level of respect for
22:09
Speaker 3: either the occasion or the person whose life you're celebrating.
22:14
Speaker 2: So I agree with you to a point. I mean,
22:18
Speaker 2: what I always.
22:19
Speaker 3: Found sort of ridiculous was Jeremy Corbyn, for whom I
22:26
Speaker 3: have absolutely a certain amount of It's not a total
22:33
Speaker 3: amount of respect.
22:34
Speaker 2: Anyway, let's not get into that.
22:36
Speaker 3: But what I found funny about his approach to being
22:38
Speaker 3: in the House of Commons was he was sort of
22:40
Speaker 3: recognizing that he was part of a system which he was,
22:43
Speaker 3: in some ways.
22:46
Speaker 3: Not exactly rebelling against, but he was an outlier in
22:50
Speaker 3: some respects. But when you look at him, he was
22:53
Speaker 3: wearing a suit and he was wearing a shirt and
22:55
Speaker 3: he was wearing a tie. So basically dressed like everybody else.
22:57
Speaker 3: And his only sort of nod to trying to be
23:00
Speaker 3: a bit different was that he wouldn't do his tie
23:03
Speaker 3: up properly, which just made him look like he couldn't
23:06
Speaker 3: do his tie up properly, which to me made it
23:08
Speaker 3: look like he wasn't really going to be able to
23:11
Speaker 3: run the country. And I know that might be a
23:13
Speaker 3: bit of a leap to make, but I think if
23:15
Speaker 3: you are going to do something a bit different and
23:17
Speaker 3: you are going to either sort of put two fingers
23:21
Speaker 3: up at something or you're just going to say, look,
23:24
Speaker 3: I do this differently. The way I show respect is
23:27
Speaker 3: like this. But to do what he did, and I'm
23:29
Speaker 3: sorry to single out Jeremy Corbyn because it's not really
23:31
Speaker 3: meant to be a sort of an attack on him,
23:34
Speaker 3: but it's rather more than just what looked like an
23:37
Speaker 3: utterly pathetic attack way of apparently doing something different. But honestly,
23:42
Speaker 3: I absolutely defy you. I mean, even on Remembrance Sunday,
23:45
Speaker 3: I defy you to find a photograph of him wearing
23:48
Speaker 3: a tie properly done up. Again, I know that will
23:51
Speaker 3: bring other people out who will absolutely be able to
23:53
Speaker 3: find such thing. But for the most part, he just
23:55
Speaker 3: didn't do it. Now, what do I read into that?
23:59
Speaker 3: I don't really know. But as I say, it just
24:01
Speaker 3: gave me the impression, well, he can't do it. why
24:06
Speaker 3: would you be able to put a tie on and
24:08
Speaker 3: get it so far and then you can't quite make
24:10
Speaker 3: that last sort of inch and a half?
24:12
Speaker 2: You know, it's just bizarre. What I was going to
24:15
Speaker 2: say when I was trying to interrupt you is that
24:19
Speaker 2: at the UK Column event, when you were on the stage,
24:23
Speaker 2: you sort of dressed up. And the question is, why?
24:27
Speaker 2: There we go, see? Only sort of.
24:35
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know.
24:36
Speaker 2: I might question your choice in pants. No, I'm kidding.
24:42
Speaker 2: I'm kidding. But look, I'm not discussing fashion here. What
24:45
Speaker 2: I'm discussing is a psychology. Obviously, you're right. The way
24:51
Speaker 2: you dress isn't– it's not important. But what I'm saying
24:53
Speaker 2: is there's a perception and there's a psychology. It might
24:56
Speaker 2: also be a cultural thing because the UK has a
24:58
Speaker 2: history of class struggle. I understand that. South Africa doesn't.
25:02
Speaker 2: So everything– from our history is from the lowest common denominator.
25:07
Speaker 2: I mean, in Afrikaans, we don't even have words for sir.
25:11
Speaker 2: There's no such word for sir. So there's already, you
25:15
Speaker 2: can see the psychology there, that there is an attempt
25:17
Speaker 2: to keep things at grassroots. And I think it might
25:20
Speaker 2: be a cultural thing also. But I do see a
25:25
Speaker 2: need for those separations because it also helps with the
25:29
Speaker 2: way in which we approach the world. If everybody looked
25:34
Speaker 2: like those LGBTQ types, I think we'd be in a
25:37
Speaker 2: complete hellhole. I don't know. Again, sorry, and it's not
25:45
Speaker 2: about fashion. I must emphasize that it's about the psychology. Yeah, yes.
25:50
Speaker 2: I think it depends.
25:51
Speaker 3: I mean, admittedly, I am going to struggle if I'm
25:54
Speaker 3: going to find a situation in which the sort of LGBTQ.
26:01
Speaker 2: Look as it were would sort of.
26:08
Speaker 3: Work by which I mean if you're going to have
26:10
Speaker 3: a system where people are cooperating for good outcomes and
26:17
Speaker 3: there is people feel that within that system they're.
26:24
Speaker 2: Having the life they want to.
26:25
Speaker 3: I don't know, this could be sort of overly judgmental,
26:29
Speaker 3: but looking at people who are like that, you don't
26:31
Speaker 3: get the sense that there is a great degree of
26:33
Speaker 3: sort of discipline organisation. And I'm not saying, I don't
26:35
Speaker 3: mean rigid discipline organisation, I just mean a sort of
26:38
Speaker 3: a framework, a framework that actually works.
26:41
Speaker 2: And so... I'm.
26:43
Speaker 1: Not sure whether I agree with that, Charles, because they
26:45
Speaker 1: dress that way.
26:49
Speaker 1: Apart from anything else, they dress that way as part
26:52
Speaker 1: of their campaign. I think, you know, because they are
26:59
Speaker 1: absolutely wanting to signal that that is what they are.
27:04
Speaker 1: And so in that case, they are using what they
27:10
Speaker 1: wear as a tool of the campaign for what they
27:13
Speaker 1: perceive to be equality. I think the better example maybe
27:18
Speaker 1: here is the group captain at the RAF base, the
27:26
Speaker 1: RAF Valley in North Wales, because last week a training
27:32
Speaker 1: aircraft crashed and the two pilots ejected. I mean, it's
27:38
Speaker 1: pretty clear what went wrong. They had a fire with, well,
27:42
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, I won't go into the details of it,
27:44
Speaker 1: but The point was the group captain was rolled out
27:48
Speaker 1: in front of the television cameras and he's wearing his
27:52
Speaker 1: fatigues and his beret and his beret had a hole
27:54
Speaker 1: in it. It's a small hole, but it looked a
27:58
Speaker 1: bit moth-eaten. And right there, Charles, I'm saying to myself, right,
28:02
Speaker 1: is this indicative of the state of the British military
28:05
Speaker 1: that the guy can't even come out on camera with
28:08
Speaker 1: a beret on that is presentable? But even then... he's
28:15
Speaker 1: supposed to be a group captain. Now, you can tell
28:17
Speaker 1: me anytime I've seen in popular culture, group captains in
28:23
Speaker 1: the RAF, they're dressed a heck of a lot better
28:25
Speaker 1: than that in general. And so, you know, but if
28:30
Speaker 1: you look at the way police used to be dressed
28:33
Speaker 1: 50 years ago and how they're dressed now, everything is
28:37
Speaker 1: being pulled down. And so the average police constable, rather
28:42
Speaker 1: than looking like someone who is an upstanding part of
28:45
Speaker 1: the community, sorry to use that term, is instead some
28:49
Speaker 1: kind of thug that you've got to be scared of.
28:53
Speaker 1: And so in those terms, that absolutely signals the state
29:01
Speaker 1: of the nation. It signals the state of society. And
29:05
Speaker 1: in some cases, it's clearly, in the case of the police,
29:08
Speaker 1: it's designed to signal a threat, a paramilitary-style threat.
29:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're making my point better than I'm making it.
29:15
Speaker 2: When Carl and I left Plymouth to head back to London,
29:22
Speaker 2: we were walking somewhere and a schoolgirl and her friend
29:26
Speaker 2: came walking out of a shop in school clothes, and
29:30
Speaker 2: her dress looked like an absolute money skirt. And I
29:34
Speaker 2: got a shock, because I'm not used to that here
29:36
Speaker 2: in South Africa. And Carl said, you won't see that
29:39
Speaker 2: in China. And I don't know where I'm going with this,
29:45
Speaker 2: but there's a kind of.
29:50
Speaker 2: What am I trying to say?
29:51
Speaker 1: What you saw there, Jerm, was the absolute sexualization of
29:55
Speaker 1: people at every younger age, and it's being expressed.
29:58
Speaker 2: In school uniforms. It was way too short. Mike, that
30:01
Speaker 2: was way, way, way too short, especially for school. And
30:05
Speaker 2: I don't understand how a school can allow that. And
30:11
Speaker 2: that there... You want to see what the teachers wear?
30:14
Speaker 2: But that there, Charles, is kind of... It's horseshoeing back
30:18
Speaker 2: to what I was saying earlier about the demoralization, because
30:21
Speaker 2: why would you wear that? Well, yes. I don't know.
30:29
Speaker 2: I don't know why you would.
30:31
Speaker 3: But I think actually the question that people of that
30:34
Speaker 3: age are really asking themselves is why wouldn't they? Talking
30:39
Speaker 3: about being sort of carried along by the tide. I mean,
30:43
Speaker 3: that has, in all of these things that we're talking about,
30:47
Speaker 3: that is the way that it's gone. And nobody, I'm afraid,
30:50
Speaker 3: has been a voice of reason and said, well... I
30:54
Speaker 3: don't think that's quite right. To get back to my point,
30:57
Speaker 3: I'm not just trying to have a go at LGBT people.
31:01
Speaker 2: Mike, you're absolutely right. It is the point that's being made.
31:04
Speaker 3: All I'm saying is that that look is not suggestive
31:08
Speaker 3: en masse of a group that could function as a
31:14
Speaker 3: society where order.
31:17
Speaker 2: could be created.
31:18
Speaker 3: And when I say order, I just mean a system
31:22
Speaker 3: by which everybody benefits.
31:23
Speaker 2: That's all I mean. I'm not trying to go into
31:25
Speaker 2: it further than that.
31:26
Speaker 3: But yes, I mean, the guy with the holes in
31:31
Speaker 3: his beret, you see, it's ridiculous because I dare say
31:36
Speaker 3: that's the only beret he's ever had, in which case
31:38
Speaker 3: it becomes a sort of an item of sentimentality because
31:42
Speaker 3: usually it's the only bit of your kit that you
31:43
Speaker 3: do keep. throughout because everything else does get threadbare and
31:48
Speaker 3: and gets replaced but there is a sort of um
31:50
Speaker 3: it's it's sort of accepted that to have a well-worn
31:53
Speaker 3: beret is um you know is is in a way
31:57
Speaker 3: acceptable which of course contravenes all the all the ridiculous
32:00
Speaker 3: um rules and regulations around dress and whatnot but the
32:04
Speaker 3: fundamental question is well why the heck is a staff
32:06
Speaker 3: officer wearing combat he's He has absolutely no need to.
32:10
Speaker 3: And this is exactly your point. It's the same with
32:12
Speaker 3: police or anything else. Why do you get these people
32:15
Speaker 3: wearing kit? for which they have no practical use there's
32:18
Speaker 3: there is no need for him ever to be in
32:20
Speaker 3: combat he has plenty of other uniforms that he not
32:23
Speaker 3: just could be wearing but should be wearing but this
32:27
Speaker 3: is this idea sort of yeah you're projecting that you're
32:30
Speaker 3: one of the lads and that we're all you know
32:32
Speaker 3: that we're all sort of men of action and and
32:34
Speaker 3: whatnot absolutely it is not necessary and it's not appropriate
32:38
Speaker 3: and that's exactly what's happened with police and um I
32:44
Speaker 3: think for the vast majority of people who see this stuff,
32:46
Speaker 3: it's just made it very, very confusing as to who's
32:49
Speaker 3: who and who does what. How on earth do you
32:51
Speaker 3: tell these days? Because in some senses, everybody looks the same.
32:57
Speaker 3: That is a great problem. I don't know, I might
33:00
Speaker 3: be wrong, but I feel like people have less and
33:03
Speaker 3: less and less what I would call life experience because
33:06
Speaker 3: they don't get exposed to the types of situations that
33:10
Speaker 3: they would. I mean, you know, even going back to
33:13
Speaker 3: the petrol station, just being able to talk to somebody
33:18
Speaker 3: as they're filling up your car with fuel.
33:21
Speaker 2: I mean, you just never know.
33:23
Speaker 3: All these interactions that people just don't have anymore because,
33:26
Speaker 3: like you say, you know, Revolut have put a thing
33:28
Speaker 3: in so you just sleepwalk your way into a supermarket.
33:31
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, how long before the thing decides
33:35
Speaker 3: actually what it's going to put in your trolley or basket?
33:37
Speaker 3: You're not even making that decision. It's going to happen
33:40
Speaker 3: because it's all based on the internet of things and
33:43
Speaker 3: your fridge telling you or telling your system, your sort
33:46
Speaker 3: of operating system, what it is you're supposed to be eating.
33:49
Speaker 3: Maybe you don't even go to the shop. It just
33:50
Speaker 3: comes to you in a drone.
33:53
Speaker 1: That's a very good point because the other bit of news, Jeremy,
33:56
Speaker 1: that came out last week was that the leader of
33:59
Speaker 1: the opposition Tory party in the UK has said that
34:03
Speaker 1: they would, if they become a government at some point
34:06
Speaker 1: in the future, make sure that anybody that's on long-term
34:12
Speaker 1: unemployment benefit benefits will only be able to buy stuff
34:17
Speaker 1: with a card that is supplied by the state and
34:21
Speaker 1: that they would prevent those people from buying cigarettes and
34:24
Speaker 1: alcohol with the card. So we're now seeing policy spoken
34:31
Speaker 1: about openly, which would give the state the authority to
34:36
Speaker 1: decide what you may and may not buy.
34:39
Speaker 3: Whilst at the same time insisting that you are topped
34:44
Speaker 3: up with many, many pharmaceutical products that are much more
34:49
Speaker 3: hazardous than any of those things.
34:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a disgrace. I don't want to make it
34:53
Speaker 2: sound as if we don't have those problems. Yeah, if
34:57
Speaker 2: you look at our military and our police and anybody
34:59
Speaker 2: who should be in a position of, I don't know, respect,
35:03
Speaker 2: whether it's their... their look or the way they present
35:07
Speaker 2: themselves or the way they speak, we have very bad.
35:11
Speaker 2: So don't worry about that. I mean, I'm not comparing.
35:15
Speaker 2: What I am noticing, though, is this trend, which is
35:19
Speaker 2: for me worrying. And I suspect it's by design. I
35:22
Speaker 2: think it's part of the sort of technocratic... long-term goal
35:27
Speaker 2: to get everybody into the same kind of, uh, lowest
35:31
Speaker 2: common denominator, demoralized, uh, state of mind, because then, then,
35:37
Speaker 2: you know, you can tax the hell out of, if
35:39
Speaker 2: you're useless eater and you're doing nothing at home and,
35:41
Speaker 2: you know, you just become completely pointless. You're, you have
35:45
Speaker 2: no real purpose to your existence. That's kind of my
35:48
Speaker 2: long-term trajectory. That's what I'm seeing. Um, But I was
35:54
Speaker 2: hoping not to have seen some of that when I
35:56
Speaker 2: was in the UK. That's my point. When I landed
35:59
Speaker 2: in Heathrow, I mean, I was shocked. Number one, when
36:03
Speaker 2: I checked in, sorry, I beg your pardon, when I
36:07
Speaker 2: landed in Heathrow to come back to South Africa, It
36:10
Speaker 2: was early in the morning. There were no people. It
36:12
Speaker 2: was just machines. And I don't know how to operate
36:14
Speaker 2: that stuff. I don't know what buttons to press. Honestly,
36:17
Speaker 2: I don't know. I need to ask people questions. What
36:19
Speaker 2: do I do? How do I do this? And then
36:23
Speaker 2: when you find somebody, they're not very friendly. And they're
36:27
Speaker 2: also not British. And then I have to do everything myself.
36:33
Speaker 2: And as you said, Charles, there's no interaction with anybody.
36:36
Speaker 2: It's just this cold clinical process. Yeah, I'm afraid so.
36:42
Speaker 3: And that's the bit that's sad. So when I talk
36:46
Speaker 3: about embarrassment, what I mean is we do have a
36:51
Speaker 3: beautiful country full of beautiful people. But what I mean
36:56
Speaker 3: is you never really get to see that because all
36:59
Speaker 3: you're ever asked to do is either nothing because some
37:02
Speaker 3: stupid machine does it for you, or you just get
37:05
Speaker 3: asked for money with no explanation as to why you
37:08
Speaker 3: need to pay it or what it's going to be
37:10
Speaker 3: good for.
37:11
Speaker 2: And that's pretty, that, that sort of, that.
37:12
Speaker 3: Is embarrassing because it, you know, it still feels like
37:17
Speaker 3: we are hosting you in our country and, um, and
37:22
Speaker 3: being able to give you a fair representation of what
37:25
Speaker 3: that country should be about is, is difficult, is really difficult.
37:29
Speaker 2: So I'm, you know, I'm glad. Yeah. You've been to
37:32
Speaker 2: our side. We know better. And Michael experienced it in
37:37
Speaker 2: the near future. Yeah.
37:39
Speaker 3: I mean, You say you'll know better. It is still
37:46
Speaker 3: the case. I mean, actually, in most parts of the
37:49
Speaker 3: world where you will not be looked at with a
37:53
Speaker 3: sense of surprise if you greet somebody and just engage
37:56
Speaker 3: in the conversation. In fact, it's expected, whereas you will
38:01
Speaker 3: have found it. But, you know, out and about in
38:03
Speaker 3: Plymouth and, well, okay, we did get out and about
38:06
Speaker 3: a little bit and perhaps it was different.
38:10
Speaker 2: Outside of the city.
38:12
Speaker 3: But now, to greet somebody or to start a conversation
38:17
Speaker 3: with them, I mean, okay, it's not universal, but the
38:20
Speaker 3: majority of people will not want to do that.
38:24
Speaker 2: And that's very sad. What was that adage when we
38:31
Speaker 2: were kids, don't talk to strangers? and it should be
38:35
Speaker 2: the other way around. You should talk to strangers because
38:37
Speaker 2: strangers aren't necessarily bad people, but now everybody can't be trusted.
38:41
Speaker 2: Everybody's evil. Everybody's sinister. So now you must just stick
38:45
Speaker 2: to yourself and just be a good little obedient ant
38:51
Speaker 2: and just go that direction and don't bother anybody. It's
38:55
Speaker 2: a very good point. Yeah.
38:57
Speaker 3: Whatever you do, do not exercise judgment. Just have one
39:00
Speaker 3: blanket rule and stick to it. I mean, It's, yeah,
39:04
Speaker 3: that is the way that things have gone with everything.
39:07
Speaker 2: And yet life is so much better when you just
39:09
Speaker 2: engage with people and you say, hey, how are you doing?
39:12
Speaker 2: I'm heading off to so-and-so, you know, where are you from?
39:15
Speaker 2: And just normal banter with people is so meaningful and
39:19
Speaker 2: it just makes your day so much better. And we're
39:22
Speaker 2: now being trained to avoid all of that because everybody's
39:25
Speaker 2: a predator. Yeah. Yeah.
39:29
Speaker 1: Yeah.
39:30
Speaker 2: Think you're right. And I hate that. I hate that.
39:32
Speaker 2: I absolutely hate just engaging with machines and buttons. You know,
39:37
Speaker 2: I want to talk to people, even at 4.30 in
39:38
Speaker 2: the morning, you know, because it's so much more meaningful.
39:45
Speaker 2: And that is all being removed.
39:52
Speaker 3: Yeah sadly so i mean i i i really do
39:55
Speaker 3: long for stories where this trend is being reversed you
39:59
Speaker 3: know at whatever level you know a small club or
40:03
Speaker 3: shop or whatever that had installed something genuinely believing it
40:07
Speaker 3: would make life easier has in fact removed it because
40:12
Speaker 3: that's just turned out to be not the case and
40:14
Speaker 3: it's not good for their business and it's not good
40:16
Speaker 3: for their people and um And I'm.
40:20
Speaker 2: Sure there must be examples of that.
40:22
Speaker 3: I don't just mean because the tech doesn't actually quite
40:24
Speaker 3: work in the way that they thought it would, but
40:26
Speaker 3: rather because it's ripped the soul out of what they
40:28
Speaker 3: were doing. And it must be happening. But I would
40:32
Speaker 3: like to just know a bit more about that, because
40:34
Speaker 3: I think that is exactly the sort of thing that
40:36
Speaker 3: will sort of work from the ground up. If you've
40:39
Speaker 3: had that kind of experience and you realise that somebody's
40:42
Speaker 3: done away with one of these supposed... labor saving schemes
40:46
Speaker 3: or whatever it is and just find that actually the
40:48
Speaker 3: consequences are too dire to to continue to persist with
40:52
Speaker 3: it then um then it makes you think about everything
40:55
Speaker 3: else that you're doing or that you're being sort of
40:57
Speaker 3: subjected to uh so yeah i mean it's um i
41:02
Speaker 3: think it will happen it will absolutely happen because ultimately
41:05
Speaker 3: we you can't get away from the nature of it
41:09
Speaker 3: which is that we do want each other's company i
41:12
Speaker 3: mean just just you know people only have to think
41:14
Speaker 3: back to 2020 2021 that that period i mean it
41:19
Speaker 3: didn't matter what anyone thought about the apparent threat to
41:24
Speaker 3: health nobody nobody liked the isolation it was it was
41:29
Speaker 3: absolutely dreadful for everybody and that's what people need to
41:33
Speaker 3: remember and.
41:34
Speaker 2: Why That's what Mike's mentioned a few times in the
41:36
Speaker 2: past on this show is that that was a unifying force.
41:42
Speaker 2: That's all gone now. And everything's all over the place.
41:45
Speaker 2: And so people are now in conflict with one another again. Yeah. Well,
41:51
Speaker 2: at least he's talking. Listen, for what it's worth, when
41:56
Speaker 2: I landed in Cape Town, it was very much friendlier
42:01
Speaker 2: than my Heathrow experience. Firstly, so we've also got some
42:07
Speaker 2: of those automated machines where you hold your passport over and,
42:12
Speaker 2: you know, the machine does it for you. That was
42:16
Speaker 2: all broken. So we have people, we have people controlling that.
42:20
Speaker 2: And it was for me so much nicer. It was
42:22
Speaker 2: still fairly quick, obviously slower. Although I don't know if
42:25
Speaker 2: it actually is quicker or slower because half the time
42:28
Speaker 2: those things take forever to read. And anyway, but it
42:31
Speaker 2: was nice talking to people and they heard my accent
42:33
Speaker 2: and they said, ah, welcome back. And, and it just,
42:35
Speaker 2: you know, there's just, there's this weird, kind of friendliness
42:39
Speaker 2: that these are strangers you don't know who they are
42:41
Speaker 2: not going to see them again and yet it was
42:43
Speaker 2: pleasant you know um it wasn't cold and.
42:46
Speaker 1: Yeah but i mean if you're talking about passport control
42:48
Speaker 1: in britain the united states and particularly the united states
42:52
Speaker 1: has always been like this but you know there's no
42:55
Speaker 1: there's very little friendliness uh going through that type of
42:58
Speaker 1: uh situation and and so-called first world countries yeah um
43:06
Speaker 1: and uh So, you know, it's good if you've landed somewhere.
43:11
Speaker 1: But of course, your experience going back into South Africa,
43:14
Speaker 1: you were in the South African citizen queue. What was
43:17
Speaker 1: it like for, well, I'll find out at some point,
43:19
Speaker 1: what's it like for people that are not South African?
43:22
Speaker 1: That's the question.
43:23
Speaker 2: I think it's probably fine. I think it's fine. Yeah, yeah.
43:28
Speaker 2: It's not cold and clinical because we still want to
43:31
Speaker 2: make jokes. I remember when I was in Sydney, I
43:33
Speaker 2: made a joke and the one official came up to
43:36
Speaker 2: me and said, So we don't make jokes. And I mean,
43:43
Speaker 2: just the psychology.
43:44
Speaker 3: I mean, if he did know who you were and
43:48
Speaker 3: that you were coming, I do sympathize.
43:56
Speaker 2: Um, but I mean, look at the end of the day,
43:58
Speaker 2: I mean, what, what is, it comes down to that
44:01
Speaker 2: psychology that I was talking about. You know, it's the,
44:03
Speaker 2: it's the joy of life. When I was flying back,
44:06
Speaker 2: I was chatting to the couple next to me. It
44:07
Speaker 2: was a French couple coming to South Africa for the
44:10
Speaker 2: very first time. Uh, and I don't know, man, that, that,
44:15
Speaker 2: that interaction with people is so important. And we had
44:19
Speaker 2: that during the COVID years. A lot of that is
44:21
Speaker 2: kind of drifting away now. And I think it's something
44:24
Speaker 2: that we should also fight for, you know, just interact
44:27
Speaker 2: with people. It's so much better.
44:30
Speaker 1: Well, that's why we're doing live events, you know, in-person events. Jerem,
44:33
Speaker 1: that was absolutely part of the thinking and making the
44:36
Speaker 1: decision to do those, whatever scale they are.
44:39
Speaker 2: And it was brilliant. I want to say again, guys,
44:41
Speaker 2: well done. Although I just want to point out, Charles,
44:45
Speaker 2: You need to work on your humor. I don't know
44:47
Speaker 2: if you're being serious or not. So look, is there
44:50
Speaker 2: any evidence that you really did go for a swim?
44:54
Speaker 1: Well, there's lots of evidence. There's lots of other people went.
44:58
Speaker 1: I know you didn't get up early enough to do that,
45:00
Speaker 1: but I didn't frankly either. But, you know, the people
45:04
Speaker 1: did go. Yeah, I mean, physical evidence. Yeah, I'd struggle
45:08
Speaker 1: for that. My bathing shorts did not sort of tear
45:11
Speaker 1: into shreds on the rocks and there aren't fragments of them.
45:15
Speaker 1: there on Tinside Beach. But yes, there's plenty of... In fact,
45:19
Speaker 1: I'm probably quite pleased to say there's plenty of evidence
45:21
Speaker 1: from witnesses.
45:24
Speaker 3: I don't think there... I would hope there aren't any
45:26
Speaker 3: cameras there. So there's probably evidence of leaving the side
45:31
Speaker 3: of the road and heading down to the beach. But
45:32
Speaker 3: after that, I don't know. Yeah, it was great. That
45:37
Speaker 3: was particularly good. If anyone listening now is thinking, where's
45:40
Speaker 3: the conversation gone? This was the Saturday and Sunday mornings
45:45
Speaker 3: of our event. Gosh, over a week ago now. And
45:51
Speaker 3: I suggested to people that it might be a nice
45:53
Speaker 3: idea to go for a run and then for a
45:55
Speaker 3: swim in the morning. And it absolutely was a nice
45:58
Speaker 3: thing to do. There's two beautiful mornings, very, very warm sea.
46:04
Speaker 3: And quite a number of people turned out, so it's great.
46:06
Speaker 2: So I think we'll stick that, we'll absolutely stick that
46:09
Speaker 2: in for the next time. No, but hang on, hang on,
46:10
Speaker 2: hang on. The overwhelming majority had no idea if you
46:13
Speaker 2: were being serious. Yeah, okay, people, yeah, it's all right. Yeah, okay, yeah, sorry. Yeah,
46:16
Speaker 2: that was the bit, yes. Well, yes. Yes, I mean,
46:21
Speaker 2: what can I say?
46:21
Speaker 1: I think that's not necessarily true. I think they claimed
46:24
Speaker 1: that they didn't understand it was a serious point because
46:28
Speaker 1: actually they wanted some excuse for not doing it.
46:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to say, yeah.
46:33
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm certainly not going to call any names,
46:35
Speaker 3: but yes, I think that was what happened. There was
46:37
Speaker 3: a lot of, oh, you know, well, I just, you know,
46:40
Speaker 3: obviously I assume that was a joke or, you know,
46:44
Speaker 3: I just didn't bring my running shoes or, you know,
46:46
Speaker 3: my laces have snapped or, yeah.
46:48
Speaker 2: Guilty as charged. Guilty as charged. I mean, look, I
46:56
Speaker 2: didn't sleep that much. I was happy to stay in
46:59
Speaker 2: bed a little bit longer because I was having late nights.
47:02
Speaker 2: You guys have a very nice wine. I suspect it
47:05
Speaker 2: wasn't British. I know, Mike, I know that time is
47:17
Speaker 2: a bit tight. And the second thing is I am using,
47:22
Speaker 2: for those that don't know, I'm just using, I've got
47:24
Speaker 2: a whole complete disaster here. My cables are broken and whatever,
47:28
Speaker 2: and I'm running on fumes here. I don't know how
47:30
Speaker 2: long this battery is going to last. So I know
47:32
Speaker 2: that you also need to do stuff. So I'm happy
47:34
Speaker 2: to truncate this particular recording. So any last words?
47:38
Speaker 1: Well, I was going to say at the beginning that
47:40
Speaker 1: maybe we should have recorded the end first, just in
47:42
Speaker 1: case the camera stopped working halfway through. And then you
47:45
Speaker 1: could at least have had some kind of conclusion to
47:47
Speaker 1: the program.
47:48
Speaker 2: Well, I'm quite happy that it survived. But OK, well, OK,
47:52
Speaker 2: last words, Charles.
47:55
Speaker 3: Well, the theme, what's it been, sort of lowest common
47:57
Speaker 3: denominator stuff. I mean, that is, let's take the positive.
48:02
Speaker 3: That is easy to push back against because you simply
48:06
Speaker 3: have to do something slightly different. So if you're seeing
48:09
Speaker 3: this sort of downwards blob of everything just being oversimplified
48:17
Speaker 3: or made to be not as you believe it should be.
48:21
Speaker 3: You just behave differently and talk to people about it.
48:24
Speaker 3: And I think we can absolutely upward spiral out of it.
48:28
Speaker 3: And in fact, even this conversation, I find really exhilarating
48:32
Speaker 3: and exciting to think of all the ways in which
48:33
Speaker 3: people will do it.
48:34
Speaker 2: And I hope people can get in touch and think.
48:36
Speaker 3: Of examples where such and such a system has just,
48:40
Speaker 3: I say, backfired or has just caused people to think, no,
48:43
Speaker 3: let's not do it like that.
48:44
Speaker 2: Let's get it right. I just quickly wanted to add,
48:49
Speaker 2: because I forgot to earlier, talking about machines and beauty
48:54
Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff. I flew from London
48:56
Speaker 2: to Amsterdam before flying to Cape Town. And over that channel,
49:01
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe what I saw out the window. Wind
49:04
Speaker 2: turbines in the ocean. What is going on? I cannot
49:09
Speaker 2: believe this. Wind turbines in the ocean.
49:13
Speaker 1: I think what you need to do right there is
49:15
Speaker 1: to say that that is the segue into next week's program.
49:18
Speaker 2: Yes. There we go. That's the segue. That's the segue.
49:21
Speaker 2: All right. So on that note, gentlemen, thank you for
49:25
Speaker 2: this week's banter. I really, by the way, enjoyed being
49:27
Speaker 2: with you guys last week. It is quite different talking
49:29
Speaker 2: over the screen again, but this is how it is.
49:31
Speaker 2: So I'll catch up with you next week. Don't worry.
49:33
Speaker 1: We were glad to see you go. Cheers, guys.