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Colonel Phillip Shue Pt. Two · The Path Went Chilly

• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: of our series about the unexplained death of Colonel Phillips Shoe. Robin,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: do you want to catch everwing up when we talked
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: about in our previous episode.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Well, a central figure is fifty four year old Colonel
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Phillip Schoe, who works as a staff psychiatrist for the
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: United States Air Force. He's living in Kendall County, Texas
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: and working at a base in San Antonio, And this
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: is April two thousand and three, and he is getting
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: ready to retire with his wife Tracy. They've already brought
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: a new house in Alabama and are planning a new life.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: But one day, when Phil left to go to work,
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: he wound up any bad car accident and was killed.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: And they discovered a lot of strange details. He had
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: duct tape around his wrists and his feet, he had
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: a large gash in his chest, and most creepily enough,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: both of his nipples have been removed. And there was
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: a window of about two and a half hours between
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: when he left home before he got into his fatal crash,
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: and his wife and many other people believed that someone
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: abducted him and tortured him, but he managed to make
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: an escape and by sheer coincidence, he crashed his car
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: and was killed. But surprisingly, the authorities ruled that he
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: had committed a very elaborate suicide and mutilated himself before
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: he intentionally crashed his car. There were very divisive opinions
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: on it, but the police and the Air Force refused
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: to change the suicide ruling, and as far as possible theories,
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: they looked into Philip's ex wife, who had a lucrative
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: insurance policy out on him, which meant that she would
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: be paid a lot of money in the event of
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: his death. They finally took the matter to court and
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: she pled the Fifth Amendment to every question, so there's
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: still a lot of mysterious details about whether or not
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: she could have been responsible. And even though a judge
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: at a civil trial said that he believed that Colonel
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: Shoe's death was a homicide, the authorities have still refused
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: to change it and remains a suicide ruling to this day.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: But we have differing accounts from doctor Vincent de Mayo,
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: who believed that it was a suicide, whereas doctor ciro
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Weck believed it was a homicide. And the more you
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: look at each theory, the more you realize that no
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: one theory makes one hundred percent complete sense. So that's
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: why we've got a lot to talk about on both
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: of our episodes. And like I said, what adds to
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: the controversy of this case is that two of the
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: world's most famous forensic pathologists have performed or overseen autopsies
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: on Colonel Shoe and reached different conclusions. Like I just said,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: doctor Vincent de Mayo believes his death was a suicide
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: and doctor Curo Weck believes he was the victim of
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: foul play. Even though both men are very famous figures
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: in their field, that's not to say that either of
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: them is infallible. And I've always reached the most logical conclusion.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: So your opinion on this case might depend on whether
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: you find de Mayo or Weck to be a more
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: credible source, and if the differing opinions from both these
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: men wasn't enough, there's also the finding from Kendall County
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Court of Law Judge Bill Palmer that Colonel Hue was
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: the victim of a homicide. I mean, I know that
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Tracy Hue took that as a victory of sorts. But
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: the issue is that Judge Palmer made the statement during
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: a civil trial, which was based around determining whether or
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: not an insurance company should be held liable for not
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: canceling the policy that Phil's ex wife, Nancy had on them.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: The trial had nothing to do with figuring out if
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Phil's death was a suicide or homicide, but Judge Palmer
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: took it upon himself to make that statement. Regardless of
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: whether or not you believe he was right, it does
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: not sound like he had the full legal authority to
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: change the official ruling, which is why Phil's death is
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: still listed on the record as a suicide. Well, I
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: think the one thing we can all agree on is
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: that even if it was a suicide, the original investigation
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: was botched in a huge way and there are just
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: too many discrepancies which have never been adequately accounted for.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: This is one of those where you really do feel
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: for his family, where they're struggling with the actual definition
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: of how he died right the cause of death for them.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: You have this man who had plans he was getting
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: ready to move with his wife. He was actually going
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: to start a fellowship and do some more psychiatry work
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: down in Alabama, where he was going, and so this
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: idea that he left in seemingly normal spirits that day
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: and ended up deceased in such a bizarre fashion. The family,
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: I think, not really understanding how it could be a
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: suicide would add so much to the grief and trauma
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: that they're experiencing. And the support you get when your
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: loved one is a victim of let's say, homicide or
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: an accident, versus some judgment that society gives you. When
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: your loved one complete suicide, I think you have that
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: to add to the situation too. So his poor family's
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: begging for answers, saying, this doesn't fit our loved one's personality,
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: his life course, any of the things that were going
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: on at the time. How could you rule this as suicide?
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: Like you said, Robin, Let's say it was one of
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: these just elaborate, bizarre suicides. We've seen them before. I
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: think the fact that the police didn't break down the
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: crime scene and didn't look through that car as carefully
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: as they could have, and they made that assumption from
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: the start really hurt not only the case but the
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: family as well.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: I see a lot of parallels here with the Cindy
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: James case because I can't remember where you both fell
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: on it, but personally, I do believe that she was
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: being stalked in harassed. But I do think that it's
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: fifty to fifty, maybe even sixty forty for me, that
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: she chose to end her own life and it was
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: just in very bizarre circumstances, and the police just didn't
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: investigate the crime scene properly, so we really won't know
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: either way. But I think it was this threat of
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: violence or the terror that was just so palpable in
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: her life because of this person who was stalking her.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: And we also had the psychiatrist ex doctor Roy makepeace
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: on the periphery there, and there was an odd relationship
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: dynamic there. But I think that it's a possibility here
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: that his ex wife and that feeling that he may
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: be killed could have contributed to the situation at hand
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: if it was indeed a suicide, But I'm not one
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: hundred percent sold on that. Do you guys think that
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: there's similarities between the two cases.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: I think so because I have the same thoughts on
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Cindy James as you did, where I do believe she
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: probably staged some of her harassment, but I don't think
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: it would have been physically possible for her to stage
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: all of it over the course of six and a
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: half years without being caught. So I don't think she
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: faced some stocking ha harassment at least at the beginning,
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: and it probably caused some sort of mental breakdown. And
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: as we're going to talk about, there's kind of a
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: similar thing going on here in Phil's case, because he
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: had received an anonymous letter four years before his death
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: warning him that his ex wife is going to try
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: to kill him to cash herou on the insurance policy,
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: and he had a hard time getting the authorities to
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: believe him. He was living with a lot of paranoia
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: and anxiety, so you could think that maybe that contributed
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: to a possible mental breakdown in a possible suicide. But
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: you have to think that there's something real here that
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: he probably should have had a good reasons to be
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: scared for his life.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: It's no secret that Tracy personally believes that Nancy Shu
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: Timpson was responsible for Phil's death because she was hoping
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: to cash in on his insurance policies. Since Nancy was
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: a bored certified sex therapist who studied the practice of
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: sado masochism. Tracy thought that she might have been capable
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: of torturing Phil and performing such gruesome acts as slicing
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: off his nipples. When Tracy was interviewed on the forty
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: eight Hours episode by correspondent Troy Roberts, he has to
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: fill ever an interest in sato masochism or a fetish
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: for pain in which he could experience sexual pleasure through
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: self mutilation. Tracy responded by saying, quote, No, he did not,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: and it's interesting that you would ask that question, because
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: you were actually the first person out of the entire
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: five year timeframe that has ever asked me that question,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: and I do believe it is an appropriate question to ask.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: End quote. Indeed, I suppose an alternate theory is that
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Phil's death might not have been a suicide, but rather
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: the results of an odd sato masochistic sex game gone wrong,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: which led him to being killed in a fatal car crash.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: But it doesn't sound like there was anything found in
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Phil's background to suggest that he had some sort of
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: double life or any dark secrets. I know. Doctor Demeyo
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: believed that scratch abrasions found around the gash on Phil's
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: chest were consistent with hesitation wounds, as if he had
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: to work up the will to cut himself, but it's
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: worth noting that there were no signs of hesitation marks
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: around the cuts on Phil's mutilated nipples. If Phil really
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: did inflict all those wounds on himself, it may have
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: been the results of some sort of mental breakdown. Looking
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: through Phil's psychological autopsy report, it seems like all of
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: the issues with depression, paranoia, and anxiety began in May
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, after he received that anonymous typewritten letter
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: which warned that Nancy and her husband Donald were planning
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: to have Phil killed in order to cash in on
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: his life insurance. If the letter was legitimate and Nancy
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: and Donald were responsible for Phil's death, you might be
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: wondering why it took them four years to actually go
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: through with it. But let's not forget that after Phil
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: received the letter, he contacted Nancy in order to confront
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: her about it, so she may have felt that killing
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: him a short time later would arouse too much suspicion
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: and decided to hold off on her plan. I still
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: find it a bit surprising that Nancy was allowed to
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: retain these life insurance policies as part of their divorce settlement,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: because well, it might be a bit unsettling to know
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: that an expouse whom you're no longer on good terms
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: with stands to gain one million from your death.
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: It's really interesting. I mean, you do see settlements like
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: that where someone says, listen, I was married to you
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: for so long, and I'm going to benefit from kind
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: of that investment in you when you're deceased, right, we're
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: going I'm going to retain that. So that's not completely
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: crazy abnormal, but my goodness, wouldn't it cause some anxiety
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: when you're not on good terms with that spouse anymore
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: and there's threats to your life. What I find interesting
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: is that Phil is getting help. He's getting psychological support.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: He himself is a psychiatrist, so he is very well
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: aware of his own mental fortitude, i'd assume, and he's
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: asking for assistance with the anxiety and depression and paranoia.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: When you talk about the sado masochism, I feel like,
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: what the heck would happen if you had a secret life.
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: Your wife says, no, you're not interested in that, which
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: I would find it very bizarre. You would never approach
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: her with like this fantasy, right and tell her. But
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: let's say he did hide that life. If he came
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: home with missing nipples and or any other kind of
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: major injuries on his own body, it would cause incredible
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: kind of I don't know distress between the couple, right, like,
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: what were you doing? I didn't know this about you?
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: So I just don't see him doing that as part
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: of a sexual fantasy unless it was ultimately going to
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: lead into his suicide, because you can't go home with
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: missing nipples and your wife, not now.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: And wouldn't he have scars too?
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, like from other incidences where he came
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: home to her and it wasn't severe.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, I've heard nothing to indicate that there were situations
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: like that where he came home with unexplained scars or
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: injuries that made Tracy ask, what is that?
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: And are we supposed to believe that he's going to
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: get up at six am to go and have some
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: sado masochistic sex game that somehow goes awry before he's
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: set to go to work, when we know this is
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: preudibly atypical for him. He doesn't usually leave this early.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: It just seems like something that would be done after dark.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I'm not a morning person, but I can't
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: imagine doing that at between six and seven am.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: No, No, I didn't think about the fact that I'm like, hey,
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: you're gonna hurt me and I'm gonna put my work
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: clothes on and go to work like that. It just
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: doesn't make any sense.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: And is he meeting like a partner in some way
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: or is this someone whom he's paying for this? And
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: would those people be operating at like six am? It
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: just it all seems very odd.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: Now, those who believe that Phil's death was a suicide
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: hold the position that he fabricated the anonymous letter himself,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: and I have to acknowledge that there are definitely some
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: things about it which seem really off. The writer starts
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: off by saying, quote, I'm writing because I remember you
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: with such a kind and caring doctor. So this would
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: imply that they personally knew Phil or cross paths with
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: them in the past. But here is the exact wording
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: of the next line, quote A friend of mine who
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: worked with Don your ex wife's husband, told me some
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: scary things. I don't know Don or your ex wife.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Myself sorry, I don't even know her name end quote. Okay,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: we don't know where exactly the writer was from, but
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: I'm assuming it would be Florida since that's where Nancy
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: and Donald were living at the time. Colonel Shue was
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: stationed at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida years earlier,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: so it's not implausible that the writer could have originally
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: met him there. But I find it very strange that
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: this person seemed to know enough about Phil's background that
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: they managed to dig up his address in Texas and
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: also knew the first name of his ex wife's current husband,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: yet they don't know his ex wife's actual name. The
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: writer seems to be passing along thirdhand information that they
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: heard from a friend of theirs, but wouldn't this friend
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: had been able to tell them Nancy's name. The phrase
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: my friend is used a lot in this letter, with
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: sentences like quote, my friend told me they wish you
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: were dead so they could collect life insurance. I don't
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: understand why they would have life insurance on you, but
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: that's what my friend told me me. My friend thinks
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: they may actually be planning something end quote. Well, if
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: this friend actually exists and they overheard someone discussing a
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: murder plot. It's surprising that they never went to the
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: authorities or came forward to corroborate the writer's story. Even
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: if Phil did not fabricate this letter, I still feel
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: the writer may have been fudging certain details or not
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: telling the whole story.
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: I don't know when you get this letter. I don't
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: think Phil wrote it himself. I really don't. I think
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: that's incredibly bizarre, and he wouldn't have been having this
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: kind of four year mental health break in the position
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: that he's in. I just think he was too accomplished
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: in his career, and I think he was showing incredible
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: growth and stability and peace as he's making a transition
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: in life. So I just don't see him fabricating this
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: letter four years earlier, calling his ex wife who doesn't
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: get along with and begging her to please drop these
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: policies because he's scared for his life. So I think
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: that can be ruled out. When you are talking about
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: somebody who would overhear a new husband talking about trying
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: to kill Phil, I definitely am in your boat, Robin.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: When you say he doesn't know the ex wife's name,
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: There's just no way like he'd be saying Nancy and
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: I need this done. Nancy wants this done. Nancy has
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: an insurance policy on him. Her name would be used
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: in this conversation as to why you need him killed? Right,
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: And how would you even know he's linked to Nancy
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: unless her name had been used? So I don't know.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: It's just really interesting when you say did he write it?
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: I don't think so at all. But whoever did write it?
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: Like you said, is this a fabrication? Is it something
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: just to scare him? Or is it truly someone trying
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: to get him help, And maybe they themselves hurt it
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: and are trying not to be that directly tied to
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: the case.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, if we're making parallels to the Cidey James case,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: I guess another possibility is it could have been someone
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: trying to gaslight Phil and make him paranoid, like for
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: all we know, maybe it was Nancy herself. Maybe she
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: had no intention of killing him, but I just wanted
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: to write him these threatening letters to make them all
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: paranoid and give him a lot of anxiety or something
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: for her own personal petty reasons. But yeah, I do
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: believe that Phil was not the one who wrote the letter,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: But I do think that whoever did write it was
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: not telling the whole story and maybe was either trying
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: to scare him or something, or was trying to give
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: details about the so called murder plot without revealing too
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: much information to give away their own identity.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: So if you read Phil's psychological autopsy report, it details
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: a number of incidents in which he exhibited strange behavior
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: in the year and a half following the receipt of
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: that letter. The incidents could be the result of the
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: threat on Phil's life having a negative impact on his
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: mental health, or alternatively, he was already suffering from serious
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: mental health issues beforehand and that's what caused him to
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: fabricate the letter. In June of nineteen ninety nine, only
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: one month after the letter arrived, Phil reported another strange
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: incident in which he was working in the library at
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: the University of Texas at San Antonio and went to
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: use the washroom, but when he returned to the table
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: that he discovered that his laptop had been stolen. While
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: the story goes that sometime later that month, Phil's laptop
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: was returned as he suddenly discovered it on the hood
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: of his car, alongside a note which stated that if
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: he reported anything to the police, others would die. Phil
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: also claimed that the hard drive of his laptop had
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: been white clean. At the time, Phil was a student
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: at the Residency in Aerospace Medicine and was working on
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: his thesis for a master's degree in public health. He
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: told the program director that his only copy of his
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: thesis had been on the laptop and was erased when
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: the hard drive was white clean. In spite of this,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Phil eventually did complete his thesis and earned his master's degree.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: But another unusual incident took place in October two thousand
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: when he took the Aerospace Medicine Board exam and scored
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: a zero. Since the exam was all multiple choice questions,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: the statistical odds of Phil Geht seeing every single answer
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: incorrectly seem astronomical. So it appeared that Phil made a
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: calculated choice to intentionally get every question wrong for unknown reasons.
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. Okay, so there's no way that they
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: could have been graded incorrectly.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: I don't know, Like, they just said that Phil's a
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: smart guy, he should know the answers of these questions.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: So they just found it very odd that he managed
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: to get every question wrong, so it almost seemed like
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: it was some sort of act of self sabotage.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: That's really bizarre. I could see something like that happening,
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: but it almost seems like they ran the wrong key,
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: you know, like he had form A and they ran
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: form E as the answer key and he missed all
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: those questions. That would be incredibly bizarre. You have someone
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: who is seeking out new licenses and new expertise. He remember,
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: he's had a whole career of this, and he's adding
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: these kind of degrees to his repertoire. Why would he
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: be doing that if he wanted to sabotage himself. Just
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: stay stable at what you're doing and don't pursue things.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: I think that could speak to some mental health issues
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: that could have been there that precipitated all of these
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: strange events that led to his death. And personally, I
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: can't discount the possibility. I just think it's possible that
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: he may have written that letter himself given these behaviors.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: It's true when you kind of see his other behavior
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: during the time period, like it all seems very bizarre,
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: like the whole thing about the laptop being stolen and
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: then returned with the hard drive white clean really does
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: not ring true. So and when you see the timing
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: of that compared to when he received the letter, it
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: does sound like maybe he was just staging a lot
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: of stuff for reasons known only hit him. And if
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: that wasn't enough. In July of two thousand, Phil found
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: himself being detained by police after an odd incident on
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: a flight from White Plains, New York, to Chicago, as
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: he supposedly got out of his seat while the seat
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: belt light was on and slapped a flight attendant on
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: the back when she asked him to sit back down.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Later claimed that he simply lost his balance because of
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: some turbulence and brushed the flight attendant with his arm,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: so it was not an intentional slap. After a month's
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: long investigation, Phil was never formally charged with any crime,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: but during this time period he declined orders from the
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Air Force to command a squadron. He said that he
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: wanted to legally clear his name before he accepted a
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: command position, as he did not want to embarrass the
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Air Force if he wound up facing any illegal trouble.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: All of these strange events took place while Phil was
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: battling depression and anxiety, which seemed to be brought on
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: by his paranoia that his ex wife was planning to
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: kill him. In fact, the incident from the airplane and
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Phil flunking the exam almost came across as if they
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: were deliberate acts of self sabotage for his career. There
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: was definitely a lot of skepticism over Phil's claims that
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: someone stole his laptop and returned it to him with
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: a threatening note and had the hard drive completely white clean.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Even though he did report the initial theft of campus security,
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: he never informed them about the lapps return with the note.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: In fact, he never even told Tracy his laptop was
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: stolen to begin with, though this may have been because
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: he didn't want her to worry. Even if you believe
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: that Nancy and Donald Timpson recupable in Phil's death, I'm
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: not sure they would go to the trouble of traveling
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: to Texas just to steal and erase his laptop. For
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: all we know, the whole thing could have been an
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: attempt at self sabotage on Phil's part in order to
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: fabricate a cover story for how his master's thesis was
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: quote unquote lost the psychological autopsy report mentions these examples
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: of strange behavior in order to plant the seeds that
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Phil was not in a sound state of mind and
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: would have been capable of mutilating himself before staging in
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: elaborate suicide. But it's worth reiterating that the incidents took
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: place in nineteen ninety nine in two thousand and since
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Phil died in two thousand and three, I'm not sure
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: how much bearing they have on what ultimately happened.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: Well, when you look at this too, when you talk
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: about the thesis being lost, if he was struggling in school,
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: which would be surprising for intellectual purposes, but maybe not
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: if he was struggling with mental health purposes. If he
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: was struggling to get that thesis completed and had deadlines
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: with his advisor and was supposed to be having these
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: benchmarks met and he wasn't able to meet them. If
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: your laptop gets stolen and the only copy of your
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: thesis is gone, then you by yourself some time and
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: an excuse to have sympathy from your advisor. You know
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: this maybe extension of deadlines and things like that. So
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: that is a possibility for why your quote you know
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: thesis would be stolen, so that is possible. I wonder
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: if you look at that four year gap again, just
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: like if Nancy was gonna kill him, and you have
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: this four year gap, that actually kind of makes sense
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: because the authorities were or she was notified that he
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: was scared of her. But when you look at him
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: struggling four years earlier and then then he completes suicide
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: four years later, it's hard to link those events. Someone
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: can have an episode four years earlier and that doesn't
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: mean that four years later they're going to be in
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: this kind of crazy state. I think it would be
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: hard to use those as evidence of suicidality.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Four years later, he might be better at masking the
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: behavior or managing his behavior in a way that others
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: aren't concerned. I'm not saying that he absolutely did this
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: to himself at all, but I think that there is
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: a pretty decent possibility just given these past behaviors. They're
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: really really odd. And it's not the fact that he
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: lied to his professors that I think is strange. It's
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: the type of lie that he told, with the threatening
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: note and the paranoia and it being you know, returned
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: after the hard drive was wiped, Like, I just think,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: why would you even mention that it was returned in
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: any capacity? Why would you just say that it was lost.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: It's just adding those strange details to me seems a
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: little bit concerning. And then when we couple all of
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: these events together, it does start to paint a picture.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: And yeah, the last event was in two thousand. He
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: did die in two thousand and three, so there is
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: a three year gap. But I think given his advanced
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: education that he has attained at this point and the
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: level which he's operating, he may just be better at
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: modulating his emotions and being able to manage his behaviors
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: in a way that isn't concerning for others.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: That would make sense, That would make sense. I mean,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: we don't really have too many reports of strange behavior
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: with him in two thousand and one two thousand and two,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: But who knows, Maybe he was doing such a good
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: job at modulating himself that they didn't even notice anything concerning,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: so that when he finally ended his own life in
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: two thousand and three, it just came as a complete shock.
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: Do you think that Nancy would be in a position
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: because she loves him and that's his wife. Would she
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: be in a position to just not see those behaviors
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: because she's with him the most, So it seems like
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: she would pick up on some of these just like
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: he's not himself. He's really struggling. I mean, yes, you
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: can mask things, but at some point the mask seems
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: to fall off, And I'm wondering, is she just unaware
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: or do you think he didn't express that to her?
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: If he's really struggling to that level. I feel like
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: she'd start to say, like, gosh, he's you know, makes
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: claims about me, he accuses me of things that didn't happen.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: He you know, uh has up security at our house,
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: and it was kind of didn't make any logical sense.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: I just feel like she would have seen some of that.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: So at the time he was killed, Phil had been
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: taking an antidepressant he was prescribed called then the faccine,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: which is sold under the brand name effects Her, but
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: the toxicology screening turned up no traces of it in
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: his bloodstream, which seemed to indicate that he may have
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: stopped taking it at least five to seven days prior
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: to his death. Since effects Her does have withdrawal side effects,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: if you will proptly stop using it. There's been speculation
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: that going off the medication may have affected Phil's mental
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: state and caused him to behave erratically, though getting to
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: the point where he mutilated his own body before crashing
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: his car would definitely be an extreme reaction. The autopsy
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: also revealed the presence of zero point four to nine
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: milligrams per leader of diephenhydramine in Phil's system, which no
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: one has ever been able to explain. Diphenhydramine is an
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: antihistamine used to relieve symptoms and allergies, and is marketed
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: under the brand name Benaedrel, but according to Tracy, Phil
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: did not have any allergies and she could not recall
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: ever having seen him take Benaedrel. Another strange detail of
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: the autopsy report is the presence of the white fiber
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: material beneath Phil's underwear, which was consistent with material found
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: in a diaper. One month before his death, Phil was
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: evaluated at a urology clinic at Wilford Hall Medical Center
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: for incontinence, and, according to Tracy, since he had a
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: recent history of prostate enlargement with frequent urination, Phil would
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: sometimes cut up pieces of diaper to line his underwear.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: It's possible that the presence of the diaper material had
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: no relevance to the case at all. But since there
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: are just so many odd elements associated with the accident scene,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: I see the detail often get mentioned in online discussions
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: about the case.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: That makes me sad. I wonder, when you're looking at
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: his you know, at the scene, did they find any
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: remnants of of you know, pieces of diaper if that
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: was a normal behavior for him. He's struggling with incontinence,
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: and that's something to be absolutely humiliating at work to
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: have an accident, you know, I wouldn't be surprising if
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: he either wore an adult diaper or he had pieces
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: of like almost like a pad lining his underwear. Yes,
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: his autopsy found pieces of it. But at the scene,
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: where there any pieces of clothing, our items that were
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: recovered that would indicate that diaper was present.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. No, they didn't find a full diaper,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: just kind of small pieces of material in his underwear.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: And I haven't read anything about him keeping diapers at
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: his home. If he did, I don't think Tracy has
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: ever said anything about it. So it's not one of
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: those details that they put really out front and talk
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: about a lot. But people have noticed it in the
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: autopsy report and they wonder, like what relevance this might have.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: Well, I think if people are looking at it through
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: like the sadomasochistic sex angle, and then they add the
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: diaper element to it, people could potentially think that it
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: has to do with, you know, the fetish of dressing
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: up like a baby or something like that, and somebody's
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: having some alternative sex encounter. But I think given the
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: fact that we know that he's struggling with urinarian continence
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: and he's known to cut up pieces of a diaper,
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: that that element can be eliminated.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: I think so, yeah, I don't think it has anything
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: to do with any sex games.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: The biggest point which is brought up to support the
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: idea that Phil's wounds were self inflicted was the presence
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: of lytocade in his system. Has doctor Demeyo believed that
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: he injected himself with it in order to all the pain.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Since he worked at a medical center, Phil likely would
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: have had access to lydakane, But the issue is that
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: there were no actual injection marks found in his body,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: which is why doctor Weck prescribed to the theory that
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Phil recently implied e MLA cream to himself to combat
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: the itchiness from shaving his chest hair. If his chest
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: was sliced open, remnants to the lyocane from the cream
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: could have seeped into his bloodstream. It's been reported that
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: a package of small gauge needles was found in the
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: car's glove compartment, though the package was unopened and there
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: was no record of any hypodermic syringes at the scene.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: But theoretically, Phil could have used a small gauge needle
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: to inject lytocan into his system through his chest before
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: he cut himself, and then removed skin from the exact
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: same area, completely obscuring the injection marks. Demayo believed that
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: if someone had been torturing Phil and wanted to inflict
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: the maximum amount of pain, it would make no sense
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: for the perpetrator to inject lytocane into his body, but
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: that might not be entirely true. In his book From
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Scene the Courtroom, Examining the Mysteries, Doctor Weck devotes a
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: chapter to this case and makes mention of a man
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: named Enrique Kihi Camarina, an American intelligence officer for the
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Drug Enforcement Administration. In February of nineteen eighty five, came
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: Morena was kidnapped in Mexico by drug traffickers who proceeded
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: to torture and interrogate him for thirty hours before he
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: was murdered. While this was going on, came Moraina was
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: injected with lighto kane because it would stabilize his heart
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: rate and keep him alert and awake while he was
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: being tortured. So, for all we know, maybe some sadistic
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: kidnapper attempted to do the same thing to Fill in
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: order to prolong his torture, but did not anticipate that
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: he would attempt to escape.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: There's that. There's also this idea, the idea of the
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: cream being exposed into his body and him having that
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: lighted king kind of transfer from his skin into the bloodstream.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: I think it's a possibility. But remember he was itching
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: and you talk about the benadrux being present. Yes, Tracy
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: doesn't remember him ever taking benadryl, but if he's itching
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: and he's using a cream to try to stop the itch,
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: that's what benadryla is for. Oftentimes, if you know, my
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: girls break out in a high or there's a rash
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: or anything like that. It's like, hey, take a benindre
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: and let's see if you're you know, the histamines can
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: kind of cease in your body and you can stop itching.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: So the benadryl is not is not that difficult to explain.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: The lytocane if it's not from the cream, would he
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: have injected himself? I just don't see that. Like you
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: said earlier, there were the hesitation marks supposedly noted around
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: the chest injury, but then not around the nipples. And
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: if he didn't have extreme levels of lytocane in his system,
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't have really numbed him to the point that
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: he could have just really just mutilated his body. I
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: don't think so. The rate wasn't that high, was it.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Not? Really? No, That's what they said, is that the
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: amount that was in his system really wouldn't have dulled
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: the pain that much. And of course it doesn't sound
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: like the rainy injection mark near his nipples where he
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: would get the maximum amount of pain. So I do
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: agree that doctor Wex's theory is possible, and that it
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: might just be some from the EMLA cream that seeped
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: into his wounds.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: That seems more possible to me than anything else, just
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: because now, if it was a really crazy high level
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: of lytocane, then that does make sense, either that a
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: perpetrator injected him or he injected himself. But to me,
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: if I'm going to say I need to dull the pain,
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: I'm going to literally mutilate my body, I'm going to
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: put a lot more medication in my own body, and
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: I would know how much I needed to put as
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: a medical professional. But he didn't. That's not that's not
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: what happened, and that's not what showed up in the
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: autopsy report.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: I guess if somebody's trying to make it look like
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: there's a possibility that like something like doctor Wex's theory happened,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: and they're trying to administer the least amount of lydacane
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: so as to make it look as though it were suicide,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: like that could be possible too. But I agree if
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: I was going to be doing something like that to myself,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: I would be pumping myself full of light. It came
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: because I wouldn't want to feel anything. So it seems
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: odd to just have a small amount. One of the
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: biggest points which has been used in favor of the
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: stage suicide theory is that when Phil was driving erradically
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: on the interstate, he passed by all the exits which
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: would have taken him back to his home and born.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: He also reportedly drove by a police car that was
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: pulled over by the side of the road, and never
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: made any attempt to stop and seek help, even though
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: he was supposedly fleeing for his life. But I think
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: it's a bit unfair to judge actions of a man
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: who may have been abducted and tortured and just made
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: an escape from his captors, as he would have been
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: in tremendous pain at this point and likely not in
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: the most lucid or rational state of mind. It's worth
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: noting that two motorists followed behind Shoe down an interstate
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: from the time he nearly crashed into the medium until
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: he fatally crashed into the trees, and for all we know,
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Shoe could have assumed that they were his captors trying
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: to chase him down, which is why he didn't stop.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Doctor de Mayo brought up the fact that Shoe's cell
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: phone was found in his car and he never attempted
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: to use it. To phone for help, but we also
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: had the account from Shoe's neighbor, who claimed that traces
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: of blood could be found on the inside of the
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: flip phone after they retrieved it from the scene. Remember
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: this was still two thousand and three, the era before
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: wireless hands free devices, so driving at a speed of
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: between sixty to sixty five miles per hour will trying
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: to make a call on a flip phone would not
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: have been the easiest thing to do, especially if you
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: have numerous wounds on your body and are experiencing great pain.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: It's possible that she briefly opened his phone and was
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: planning to make a call, which would explain how the
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: blood gone on the inside, but he was just too
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: panicked and frenzy to dial a number. In addition, the
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: area of which he was driving was known to have
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: patchy cell phone service, so any calls he attempted might
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: not have even gone through and they wouldn't have shown
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: up on cell records. For all we know, Shoe's top
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: priority at this point point was to escape and get
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: as far away from his captors as possible before he
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: sought help, But then he passed out and lost consciousness,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: which is why his car swerved off the freeway and crash.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: If he truly had escape, that would be exactly what
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: I would think could happened. That he'd be in the
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: state of shock, he'd be coming in and out of consciousness,
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: and his whole goal is get as far away from
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: them as possible. So while if you're sitting there thinking, well,
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: the rational thing to do would be pull over and
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: get help for him. It might just get distance between
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: he and his captors or he and his abusers. And
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: he could think, if I pull off at these exits
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: near me, they're going to find me, because you know,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: obviously i'd pull off right here. So he's trying to
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: just continue to drive away from the scene and create
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: that kind of safety between he and his captor. But
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: like you said, if he's bleeding and he has these
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: injuries and he's in pain, and he's scared and he's
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: in shock, at some point, I would think he would
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: lose consciousness and then that's when the car would go
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: off the road. Even driving erratically could have been a
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: sign of that in and out of consciousness where he's
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: you know, his vision's going and he's feeling lightheaded and
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: you know, blackness is coming into his eyes and he
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: just can't focus on the road. So what looks like
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: erratic behavior is him, you know, trying to come in
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: and out of consciousness to stay on the road.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: I think that's a pretty good theory, and I just
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: think the amount of panic and how outside of yourself
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: you would feel trying to escape a situation if he
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: was indeed being tortured by an outside party. The fact
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: that he didn't stop by a police officer, or that
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: he wouldn't have called on a flip phone, where it
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: would have been very difficult, given the fact that it's
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: not so easy just to key in numbers like it
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: is today, I can't put too much weight behind the
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: fact that he didn't behave in a way that people
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: would think would be typical, because what is typical in
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: a situation like that? I think you want to put
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: as much distance between yourself and those who've harmed you
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: and inflicted all of this terror and trauma and like
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: physical injury on your body.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: The key to figure out what actually happened to Colonel
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Shoe is to account for the two and a half
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: hour window between when he left his residence and when
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: he fatally crashed his car, as we just have no
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: idea where he could have been during this time period.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: If Shue did this to himself, here's how all the
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: events would have to unfold. At some point on his
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: right to work, he pulls into a remote area where
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: he proceeds to wrap pieces of duct tape around his
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: wrists and boots. He presumably has to do this while
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: wearing gloves to avoid leaving finger prints on the tape.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: He then injects himself with Lyda cane before slashing a
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: large gash in his chest, slicing out both of his nipples,
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: and cutting off the distal joint from his left pinky finger.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: There's been some dispute about whether any cutting instrument shoe
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: could have used to inflict these wounds was inside his
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: vehicle at the accident scene. According to one police report,
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: two small pocket knives were found, one of which apparently
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: had blood on it, matching shoes DNA, but these knives
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: are not shown in any of the crime scene photos.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: The photos did show a straight race inside the glove compartment,
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: as well as a Swiss army style knife, though the
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: knife's blade did not appear to be sharp enough to
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: have created the incisions on Shoe's body. The straight razors
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: seemed to have a bloody discoloration on the edge, but
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: forensic testing would later show that it was nothing more
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: than rust. If Shoe's wounds were self inflicted, he would
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: have had to drive back to Interstate ten and continue
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: westbound at a high rate of speed for several minutes
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: while in tremendous pain before he crashed into some trees
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: and was killed. We have no idea where exactly this
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: self mutilation took place, but who may have needed to
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: leave behind his severed nipples, his severed pinky finger, the
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: cutting instrument he used to inflict these wounds, the original
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: roll of duct tape, and the gloves he wore wrapped
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: the tape around himself, as well as his wallet and
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: his dog tags. I mean, given that Chow's desk was
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: not treated as a homicide investigation, I'm sure the authorities
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: didn't perform in extensive search of the area to find
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: these missive to find these missing items and extremities, but
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: they have still never turned up into twenty years.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: You would think that at least his walleted dog tags
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: are something that could have been found. So if you
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: were walking around and you found a wallet or you
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: found dog tags at some point. I feel like those
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: would get turned in, right that they have identifications on
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: them that people would be like, oh, that's odd, what
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: are those doing out here? But I mean, obviously something
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: like nipples and finger digit and things like that. I
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: don't think those would keep their original appearance very long,
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: and I don't think you'd be able to identify them
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: after they had any kind of weather to them whatsoever.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, big, that's a good point about the dog tags.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, if someone finds a wallet, they may decide
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: to keep it, but the dog tags are such a
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: distinct item. And also, Colonel Shoe's death made the news
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: and it was featured on true crime programs like forty
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: eight Hours, So you think if someone found thems, they
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: might put two and two together and say, hey, don't
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: these belong to the guy who died in that car crash.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: So the fact that they have not been found anywhere
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: makes me wonder like if someone took them and that
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Sho didn't take them off himself.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: On the surface, that scenario that Robin just presented does
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: not sound believable, but the issue is that none of
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: the scenarios involving abduction, torture, and murder seemed particularly believable either.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: The biggest potential suspect has always been Nancy and Donald Timson.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: But if their motive for having Phil killed was to
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: collect on his insurance policies, why would they go to
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: the trouble of torturing him first? I mean, I guess
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: it's possible that Nancy was just a very sadistic person
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: who wanted to inflict the maximum amount of pain on
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: her ex husband, But how exactly was her plan supposed
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: to work the Theoretically, if Nancy did abduct Phil and
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: sliced his chest and cut off his nipples, she received
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: a major break when Phil managed to escape and fatally
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: crash his own car. Technically, this meant that she was
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: no longer directly responsible for his death, and she received
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: another stroke of good fortune when the authorities believed that
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: Phil staged an elaborate suicide. So if Phil had not
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: attempted to escape and Nancy murdered him and left his
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: mutilated body somewhere, there definitely would have been a full
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: fledged homicide investigation, and it would not have been as
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: easy for Nancy to collect on the policies since insurance
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: companies are often reluctant to pay out to a murder
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: victim's beneficiary unless they've been cleared as a suspect. And
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: I know that suspicion has been directed towards Nancy because
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: she pleaded the Fifth Amendment on every single question she
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: was asked during her deposition for Tracy's civil lawsuit and
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: never officially denied on the record that she was responsible
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: for Phil's death. But that shouldn't necessarily be taken as
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: an indicator of guilt, as she was likely doing this
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: on the advice of her attorney. Remember, you can't just
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: be selective about what questions you want to answer, because
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: if you plead the fifth on one question, you have
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: to plead the fifth on all of them. Even if
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Nancy had no actual involvement in her ex husband's death,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: she may have feared that just answering one question might
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: open up the floodgates and force her to talk about
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: some stuff that she didn't want to discuss under oath.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: I think that one of the most frustrating aspects of
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: this case is it details about the alleged alibis for
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Nancy and Donald, and there are incredibly vague as all
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: we know is they were supposedly at work in Florida
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: on the day that Phil was killed. I have no
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: idea how extensively this was verified, but you'd think that
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: traveling from Florida to Texas and back would leave some
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: sort of paper trail. I guess it's possible that Nancy
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: could have hired someone to abduct and murder Phil while
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: she remained in Florida to establish an alibi. But again,
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: it does seem counterproductive to hire an outside party to
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: torture your ex husband if your primary motive is insurance money.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I find this really unlikely. I think she pled
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: the fifth because what does she gain from talking. There's
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: you know, you have nothing to do with it. Yes,
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: you would think, well, if you're innocent, you want to
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: have your voice cleared and things like that, have your
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: name cleared. But for me, we've been divorced for years,
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: and he's in her mind crazy like he keeps accusing
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: me of trying to kill him. Oh my gosh, it's ridiculous.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: She is over it, she wants her money and to
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: move on, and she is being told by her attorney
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: just keep your mouth shut. There's zero that they can
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: have on you because you're innocent, So just plead the
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: fifth and let's just get through this deposition and move on. So, yes,
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: you would think, Okay, this man died. You'd think his
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: ex wife would want to help, and if she's innocent,
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: why wouldn't she, But there's no benefit for her to do,
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: so they're at odds. They're strange. She hasn't had anything
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: to do with him as far as we know, in years.
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: She is getting calls from him where he's saying, listen,
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: quit harassing me. I know you're trying to kill me.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: So for her, assuming that she doesn't have anything to
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: do with it, he seems off his rocker to her,
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: and it's almost abusive to her and stressful for her.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: And so at the deposition, what benefit does she have
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: to say anything other than I plead the fifth.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: If you were going to hire a third party to
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: kill him, you'd think that you would want them to
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: make it look like an accident. Do you guys think
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: that there's a possibility that perhaps he had some stalker
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: that really just laid back and maybe they had a
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: really stressful life event. Maybe they were responsible for initially
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: writing that letter, and they had some sort of animosity
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: towards him, some kind of obsession, and then maybe their
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: life was going okay, and then they had a stressful
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: life event which triggered them, and then they acted and
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: chose to torture Phil, and that led to the events
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: that ended his life.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I mean, when I think about it,
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: when if Nancy was not responsible for what happened, it
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: would make more sense that an alternate suspect could be
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: some stalker who had an intimate knowledge of Phil's life,
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: because on that particular day, he left a lot earlier
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: than usual in order to go to work. And how
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: would an outside party know that unless they were watching
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: him or stalking him. I mean, a lot of the
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: odds that Phil would just cross pass was someone on
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: the highway on his way to work who would abduct
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: him and murder him. So yeah, if you're looking at
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: alternate theories which don't involve his ex wife, you would
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: think it would be someone who had a personal obsession
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: with Phil and knew a lot about his life. But
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: I've never heard of anyone from Phil's personal life who
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: fits that profile. And he never mentioned anything about being
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: stalked by a particular person.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: I would be interested if there was anybody who had
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: acted towards Tracy in a way that showed that they
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: were obsessed with her or interested in her, and they
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: saw Phil as maybe an obstacle for them somehow cultivating
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: a relationship with her, and there was some type of
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: delusion present. I mean, you might not even know what
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: stalkers can be invisible, So I don't think that we
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: can eliminate the possibility that it was either somebody who
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: was obsessed with Tracy or somebody that was obsessed with Phil.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an interesting theory too, But I've never heard
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: Tracy mention anyone who acted creepy towards her after she
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: lost her husband, or like tried to get together with her.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: So but who knows. Maybe it's just as Stocker who
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: thought this has gotten so out of control. I'm going
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: to keep a low profile and stay away from her.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: Of course. The third possibility, which was once brought up
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: by Nancy's attorney, is that Phil's death was not actually
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: a homicide or a suicide, but a failed attempt to
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: stage an abduction and possibly frame his ex wife for
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: harming him. And while Phil's plan involved intentionally crashing his car.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: He never actually thought he would die. The first time
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: I witnesses saw Phil's Mercury Tracer driving radically, it was
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: traveling in the Interstate Center medium for several hundred yards
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: and negotiated between two light poles before it struck an object,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: causing the vehicle to go airborne. This could be interpreted
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: as philm making an attempt to intentionally stage an accident,
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: but it didn't go as planned since his car wound
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: up flying through the air instead. He then decided to
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: travel down the interstate for a couple more miles and
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: veer off the road and crash into some trees, but
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: the impact wound up killing him. One potential argument against
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: Phil's death being a super is that he spent years
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: obsessively attempting to cancel the policies Nancy had on him,
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: but the insurance companies refused to do so, so by
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: killing himself, Phil would essentially be guaranteeing that his ex
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: wife got exactly what she wanted. But if Phil attempted
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: to stage a phony abduction and mutilated himself to make
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: it look like he was tortured, then perhaps he thought
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: he could finally make people believe that Nancy was trying
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: to kill him, after all. If you've been following the
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: news these past several years, you're probably familiar with the
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: story of Shery Peppini, who told everyone that she was
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: abducted and held captive for three weeks back in twenty
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: sixteen before she managed to escape. But of course, her
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: so called captors were never identified, and it was eventually
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: revealed that the entire kidnapping ordeal was a complete hoax.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: So people are capable of doing things like this, though
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: once again, cutting off both your nipples and a tip
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: of one of your fingers and slicing a six inch
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: gash on your chest seems like a very extreme step
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: to take in order to frame your ex wife. It's
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: not a very logical plan, But if Phil suffered a
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: complete mental breakdown, then we shouldn't apply standard logic to
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: his actions.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: You also could think about the fact that maybe he
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: didn't want to die, that he thought if I staged
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: this and I'm fleeing from somebody, I can tell the police.
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: Look at all these actions. There's the letter, there's this
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: note that I got that you know they were out
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: to kill me, and look at what they just did.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: They hired someone to abduct me and do these sex
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: acts on me. She's a sex therapist. Like it all
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: makes sense. And then he's so injured that he does
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: start to lose consciousness on his way to try to
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: get help and stage this and the crash actually takes
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: his life. That's possible as well.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: This is the best theory thus far in my opinion.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: Yay, I guess the only hole in that logic is
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: if he was trying to frame Nancy, how could he
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: know what an alibi would be, Because if it could
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: be conclusively proven that she was in Florida, an entirely
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: different state, then is kidnapping hoax is not going to work.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: But like I just said, though, if he's suffering a
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: mental breakdown and not in the most rational state of mind,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: that he might not have been thinking of those sort
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: of things.
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: Well, now Nancy doesn't have to be the one who
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: did it. It could be a third party who she hired,
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: and he's making that claim and then it's years where
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: she's being investigated.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's true. Yeah, he could just say a
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: third party did it. And even if she never gets
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: arrested for anything, he might be driving some pleasure over
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: the fact that she's living under a cloud of suspicion
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: and being investigated and potentially removed from his life insurance
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: policy if they think that she's culpable.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: And he could very easily say if he had, like
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: the alternate theory that Ash described, had survived this, he
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: could say that this person who was hired had said,
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: you know, this is for Nancy, or like, he could
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: have very easily inserted that, yes, it was very clearly
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: his ex wife who was responsible, even though she had
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: an alibi. So I think the fact that they were
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: in Florida in that particular scenario becomes a moot point. However,
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: the one wild card in this case is Phil and
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: Nancy's son, Jeffrey, who was removed from his father's will
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: only five days before his death. I mean, Phil's logic
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: for that made sense, as Jeffrey had been suffering from
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: financial problems and there was concern about how responsibly he
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: would handle any inheritance he received. Yet it seems like
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: one hell of a coincidence that Phil made this decision
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: so soon before he was killed. On one hand, if
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Phil was planning a suicide, this may have been his
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: way of ensuring that Tracy would get full control of
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: his assets and they would not be squandered by his son.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: But on the other hand, if Jeffrey had issues with money,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: I haven't heard anything about him being estranged from his
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: father or them having a terrible relationship. Remember, even though
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: there was a good chance that Jeffrey was conceived through
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: an affair and not actually Phil's biological son, Phil still
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: raised Jeffrey as he was his very own. In spite
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: of Jeffrey's financial issues, he did manage to get a
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: job as a pilot for Delta Airlines was proud of
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: his accomplishments. At the very least, I'd expect that Phil
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: would want to ensure Jeffrey was taken care of while
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: he was gone. I guess being removed from his will
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: could have been a potential motive for Jeffrey to have
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: his father killed, but it's unclear if Jeffrey found out
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: about this until after Phil's death. It's also not clear
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: to me what kind of relationship Jeffrey had with his
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: mother at that point, since he lived in another state.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: So for all we know, Jeffrey may have had an
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: airtight alibi clearing him of any involvement in what happened,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: But he never gave interviews or was formally questioned about
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: the case under oath. Since Jeffrey passed away nine years ago,
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: we'd never got to hear his side of the story
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: or his thoughts about what happened to his father.
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: I do wonder if he would have known that he
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: had been removed from the will it was five days earlier.
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, what did Phil do call him up and
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: be like, hey, by the way, removed you from my will.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: That's kind of a difficult conversation to have, so I
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: don't know that someone had even been aware of it
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: at the time.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: I agree. I don't think that, like, if you're planning
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: to do that, unless there was some event that was
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: a catalyst for you doing it, if it was just
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: a pattern of behaviors that led him to go, Okay,
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: I've really got to make a change here. I think
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: you'd wait until you were face to face with that
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: person and have that type of a conversation. I mean,
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: back then, there wasn't even zoom or anything so or
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: you know, FaceTime, so he couldn't look at him face
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: to face. And I don't think you just call somebody
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: up or text them and are like, hey, you're out
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: of the will.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: I suppose the most damning piece of evidence to suggest
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: the accident might have been staged is the alleged statement
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: film made to a psychiatrist, Lieutenant Colonel Dion, six months
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: prior to his death, where he mentioned having a dissociative
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: episode in which he imagined his cargoing out of control
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: on his way to work, well great violence was done
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: to him. The psychological autopsy report treats this as a
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: piece of foreshadowing in which phil practically announced what he
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: was planning to do, but there's been a lot of
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: dispute about whether or not he actually made this statement.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: When the case was featured on forty eight Hours, Deon
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: declined to be interviewed on camera, but the show claimed
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: that he shared this story about the dissociative episode with them. However,
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: according to Cyril Wex's book From Scene to Courtroom, Examining
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: the Mysteries, Giannas said that if he was ever asked
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: about Shoe's alleged statement under oath, he would deny that
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: it ever took place. So this is definitely one of
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: those cases where you're going to find conflicting information about
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: key details. From different sources, and you pretty much have
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: to make up your own mind about which side you believe.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: And I have to be honest, I've always had a
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: difficult time figuring out what actually happened here, as no
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: theory makes one hundred percent complete sense. If you read
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: Colonel Shoe's psychological autopsy report, it does make a fairly
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: convincing case for his death being a suicide, and you
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: might come away believing that he staged the entire accident.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, it fails to come up
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: with logical explanations for some of the major discrepancies involving
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: Shoe's death and requires you to make a lot of
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: assumptions about his mental state.
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: And I do give a lot of credence to what
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: Tracy said, she recognized before all this happened to her,
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: he seemed like he was doing okay. And you say, well, yeah,
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: you never know, But I mean, this is I get
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: in the car this morning, I cut my nipples off
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: and my finger off, and I'm stabbing myself in the
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: chest and crashing my car. It just seems really, I
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: don't know, chaotic as as a form of suicide. Like
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: you said, we do have Peppini, who did something very
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: similar where she beat herself and had her friend hurt
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: her and stuff like that so that she could fake
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: her own kidnapping and get attention and love from her husband.
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: But here the only thing I could think is he
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: needs to frame her. He's tried every other thing to
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: get his ex wife off of his life insurance policies.
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: He has this paranoia that she's out to hurt him,
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: and so if it is self induced, I would see
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: him trying to frame her to be under investigation. Remember
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: they had petitioned the insurance company to remove them as
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: a risk to him, that they couldn't be beneficiaries, and
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: they were denied. And so if she's under investigation for
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: a murder investigation, it's possible that the insurance company would
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: drop her at that point. So if it's self induced,
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: I would go that direction that he's trying to fake
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: an accident where then he can talk to the police
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: and at the insurance company to remove her. But I
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: couldn't see him wanting to end his life with everything
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: he had going on. He was supposed to be moving
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: with his wife, they had a dream house picked out,
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: he was continuing his education. It just doesn't seem like
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: that would be where he was at in that moment
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: of his life.
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: This makes the most sense to me of like everything
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: that we've discussed so far, because I don't think that
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: if he did this to himself, the death was intentional
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: and just given the behavior that if Dion did say
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: that he had that dissociated episode in which she said that,
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: and that is factually correct, then I think that that
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: is some interesting foreshadowing. Whether or not he had this
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: episode or he's saying he did. I don't know if
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: it was just sort of him putting it out there
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: that the hay this could happen, or if it was
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: like a self fulfilling prophecy. He had this vision and
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: then somehow it gave him an idea of a way
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: that he could get his ex wife off of the
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: insurance policy and just be free of her in that sense,
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: if he was really truly worried about his life, I'm
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: not sure, but I think you build in a few
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: holes from you with that ash, and I think that
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: that is the best theory.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: The one part that still bothers me, though, is him
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: mutilating his nipples, because I could see him like staging
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: an abduction and maybe inflicting a few wounds on himself
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: to make it look like he was tortured. But like
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: removing your entire nipples if you're planning to still be
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: alive afterwards, really does seem like an extreme reaction.
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: You're probably not in a good mental state if you're
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: going to remove your own nipples, Like, I don't think
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: that that would be something that if you were going
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: to try to like simulate Toure, that that would be
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: the thing that your mind would go to. I'm going
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: to slice off my own nipples. That's so permanent, like
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: to cut yourself and to put gashes in your body
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: that will heal, that will grow back. But nipples don't regenerate,
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: So that is a really extreme thing to decide to do.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: But if he wasn't in a logical frame of mind,
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: then again we can't apply logic. I suppose it's possible
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: that all this drama involving Shoe's ex wife and the
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: insurance policies is nothing more than smoke and mirrors, and
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: he was instead abducted and tortured by an outside party
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: who's managed to stay off the radar. Maybe there was
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: just some random psychopath who felt the urge to abduct
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: and torture someone that particular morning and was lying in
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: wait for a random victim, and Colonel Shoe became the
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: unfortunate target. However, shee wound up escaping and was killed
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: in a car crash. But because he didn't have any
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: known connection to the torturer, no one's been able to
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: figure out who that person might be. But regardless of
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: whether Shoe's death was a homicide, suicide, or a staged
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: accident gone horribly wrong, I think the one thing we
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: can all agree on is that he was failed in
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: a huge way by all the agencies who were responsible
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: for investigating his death. I mean, yes, he technically was
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: killed by the car wreck, but if you arrive at
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: an accident scene and discover that the victim's nipples are
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: missing and cannot be found anywhere nearby, then you have
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: to assume that there's a lot more to the story.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: And I know that Judge Palmer's ruling that Colonel Schue's
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: death was a homicide had no official legal weight, but
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: I still find it incredibly frustrating that all the investigative
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: agencies have refused to budge and take a fresh look
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: at the case. At the very least, Choo's official cause
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: of death should be reclassified as undetermined instead of suicide
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: until more conclusive answers can be found.
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: And why they didn't approach it that way from the
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: get go is what's so frustrating. I get aftermath there's
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: a lot of politics and things changing that cause a death,
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: But when you look at the original investigation, they failed him.
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: It should have immediately been something they said, this is odd.
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: If we assume it's a suicide, that's fine, but I
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: would like to gather as much information and as much
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: evidence from the scene to confirm that assumption. That is
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: a big assumption to make in the moment, especially given
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: all of the details that you have in front of you,
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: missing nipples, a finger digit missing, a gash in his chest,
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: the tape around his ankles and feet. So why you
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: would assume suicide and before you really were doing a
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: deep dive into a psychological background, I don't know. You
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: should have approached it as a homicide and gone from there.
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: And like you said, why not be willing to take
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: a fresh look now.
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: Lastly, I should acknowledge that Tracy Shue did benefit financially
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: from her husband's death, since she received a payout of
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: one point eight million dollars from both her husband's military
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: death benefits and to other insurance policies. I'm sure there
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: are some cynics who might take this as a sign
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: that she was involved to what happened to him. But
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: if that were the case, why wouldn't she have just
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: accepted the suicide ruling and collected the money. Why spend
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: years dragging the case through the courts and keeping your
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: husband's story in the spotlight. So yes, I definitely think
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: you can rule out the possibility of Tracy's involvement, as
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: it's clear that she only wants justice and conclusive answers
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: about what happened. I will admit that in some cases
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: which a victim's death was ruled to be a suicide
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: and their loved ones disagreed with the conclusion, you got
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: the impression that there was a lot of denial at
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: work and that pushing a homicide narrative was their coping
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: strategy for dealing with the pain and grief. But here
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: there are just so many things which don't make sense
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: that I can completely understand why the victim's widow would
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: continue the fight. So if you happen to have any
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: information about the unexplained death of Colonel Philip Schue, please
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: contact the appropriate authorities. Jules Ashley, any final thoughts in
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: this case.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: I'm so perplexed. This is one of those where I'm
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: wrapping it up and not feeling really confident in which
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: direction I feel this case goes. I'm almost tempted to
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: go with my gut that says he staged this as
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: a abduction and abuse situation, right torture situation where he
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: wanted to live and just have Nancy punished and out
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: of his life and further removed from him. But there
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: really are questions in every single possible scenario. A straight
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: up suicide does not make sense. The straight up homicide,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: we have no information, especially because they didn't investigate that
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: way and my other plan. Like you said, Robin, there
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: aren't one hundred percent, you know, foolproof ways to look
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: at that either. So it's one of those cases where
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: as the widow, I would be so devastated and so
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: upset that I felt failed from the get go, and
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: that there was an assumption that my husband would take
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: his own life given the life we had created together.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: So I feel so much empathy for her, so much
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: sadness for her, no matter what happened, And I don't
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: think the investigation was fair to fill or his wife.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: And it's one of those cases where it says, you
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: start assuming it's a homicide and later you can change
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: your mind, but you can't go the opposite direction. You
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: can't say suicide and then try to undo the lack
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: of investigation and make any kind of conclusions later. So
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: I'm very frustrated with the way it was even investigated
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: to start this case.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: Is like you said, ash is just so frustrating. The
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: fact that they didn't investigate it as a murder first
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: and let the evidence lead where it may is such
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: a huge failing to his family. I don't know what
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: happened here. I think that there are so many different possibilities.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: Like I said earlier, I think the theory that Ashley
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: posited that his intention wasn't to end his own life.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: His intention was just to simulate this torture and to
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: have his ex wife, Nancy's insurance policies on his life
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: be terminated, because clearly this was a black cloud that
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: was hanging over him. I think that it is a
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: pretty good probability that that may have been what happened.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: There's still obviously a lot of questions as to where
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: he did this. If he did indeed do this to himself,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: where did he decide to take off his own nipples
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: and to cut himself like this, Because we know that
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: his finger and the nipples weren't found in the vehicle,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: so it was likely done somewhere else and we just
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: don't have that information. I feel like the investigation being
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: so lacking initially, it just leaves us with more questions
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: than answers, and my heart really breaks for the family.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: It's just it's really really sad, and I don't believe
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: that Nancy and her husband, even though they stood to
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: benefit from his death, had anything to do with what happened.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: I think that there's obviously like a possibility, but it
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: just doesn't seem like a strong one to me personally
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: because of the manner in which it was done. If
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: he was killed in a way that looked like it
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: was just an accident without all the torture, and then
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: I'd be more inclined to believe that they had some
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: type of involvement. And as far as Jeffrey goes. We
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: don't know that he knew about being taken off the will,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: and I don't believe that he would have just called
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: him up. I mean, I don't really know what type
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: of guy he is, but it does seem a little
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: callous to be like, yeah, you're just off the will,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: like Jeffrey, I'm disinheriting you because you're bad with money.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: It feels like it's a more compassionate thing to have
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: a conversation one on one, face to face. And he's
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: a psychiatrist and he would have known that. But this
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: is just one of the most mysterious cases and strange
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: cases that we've ever covered.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember watching it on the forty eight Hours
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: episode many years ago, and of course my initial impression
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: was that there's no way this is a suicide and
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: that Colonel Shoe had to be the victim of foul play.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: And I started researching it for the Trail Went Cold
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, and I read the psychological
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: autopsy report and I'm like, Okay, oh, yeah, that's a
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: valid point. This is me making a compelling case for
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: this being a stage suicide. But then I'm reading that
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: a lot of the information in this report is not
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: entirely accurate, and I also look into the fact that
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: it can't account for a number of the strange discrepancies
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: which were not adequately explained. So it left me on
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: the fence again not really sure what to think. I
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: do believe that there is no one theory that makes
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: one hundred percent complete sense. The theory we brought up
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: here about this not being an intentional suicide but rather
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: an attempt by Phil to stage an abduction and a
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: torture in order to frame his ex wife, even though
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: it doesn't make any logical sense on the surface. If
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: he was suffering some sort of mental breakdown, then yes,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: maybe he would have been capable of doing something like
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: that and doing something as extreme as cutting off his
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: own nipples. But even so, there are some holes in
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: that theory, and that's why this case is so mysterious.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: And like we said, I think the authorities did a
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: major disservice by automatically ruling this as a suicide and
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: not doing a full fledged homicide investigation. And we mentioned
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: in our last episode that Tracy did not even find
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: out many of the strange details, such as the removal
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: of the nipples from law enforcement. She was told that
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: by a newspaper reporter, and that's why she decided, hold on,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to cremate my husband like originally thought.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: We're going to give his body a new autopsy and
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: figure out what's going on here. And that's what convinced
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: her that foul play must have taken place. But Yeah,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: even though Nancy on the surface seems like the most
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: logical suspect, the whole theory about her doing it doesn't
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: make much logical sense either that she would travel or
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: hire someone to travel to Texas to murder and torture
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: a husband for the insurance money. Would it be a
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: lot more logical to kind of stage his death to
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: look like an accident to avoid all the suspicion. So
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: I think that either Phil was murdered by someone who
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: we don't even know about it, possibly a stalker who
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: never popped up in the radar as a suspect, or
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: like Ashley said, maybe he decided to stage the accident
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: but did not plan on ending his own life and
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: as a result, the whole investigation turned into a mess
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: and no one could figure out what happened. But regardless,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: this is still remains one of the weirdest mysteries we've
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: ever covered, and I do hope we finally get conclusive
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: answers someday.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 4: Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: about the Trail Went Cold?
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: Patreon?
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: tier tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: which I talk about cases which are not featured on
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: The Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: and if you join our highest tier tier three, the
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: ten dollar tier. One of the features we offer is
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsaved Mysteries,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: where you can download an audio file and then boot
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: the cases featured in this episode and incidentally, the very
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: first episode that I did a commentary track over was
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: the episode featuring this case. So if you want to
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: download a commentary track at which I make more smart
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: ass remarks about jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: Tier three.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 4: So I want to let you know a little bit
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 4: about the jeweles and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 4: Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: they're not very mini, but they're just too short to
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 4: turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: so we hope you'll check out those patreons.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: We'll link them in the show notes.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: So I want to thank you all for listening, and
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: any chance you have to share us on social media
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: You can email us at The Pathwent Chili at gmail
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: So until next time, be sure to bundle up because
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy