Latest / The Bold Lounge / Angela Cheng-Cimini: Transform the Narrative with Your Bold Truth

Transcript

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Transform the Narrative with Your Bold Truth · The Bold Lounge

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Round Podcast.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Lee Burgess, and I will be your host.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you're anything like me, love hearing inspiring stories.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone has a full story.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, wait.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Tune in.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Get ready to Welcome to the Bulldogs.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Today I have Angela Chang Simene.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: She is the Senior Vice President of Talent and Chief Human Resource Officer of Harvard Business Publishing.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Angela.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to spend time together.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: So in addition to being the CHRO, I thought I might ask you, what else would you say is kind of part of your bio?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: What else would you introduce yourself as?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: So certainly in the last, I would say, 10 years, I've really been migrating to a phase of my life where I'm paying it forward.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm serving on a board of a small regional museum that is taking on a particular interest in DEI, which I think is fabulous.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also engaged in a couple efforts to really promote Pan-Asian equity and advancement in the workplace.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Ascend leadership is one of those.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: And another one is make us visible, which is trying to promote Asian American curriculum in the classroom.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent, excellent.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: So lots of different nodes of your work and what you're doing and the difference that you're making.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And most likely being bold in some of those places as well.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: So speaking of bold, what would you define as bold in your life?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: What does it look like to you?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: I love that question, Lee.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's probably not a question that I could have answered, you know, 10 years ago.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's something that happens when you hit 40, right?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: You hit an inflection point.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, I think it's speaking truth to power.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not just at work, but it's also in life.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's all it's a skill that I hope I've given to my children.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, don't be complacent, don't be satisfied with your lot.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think people underestimate the amount of agency to have in their life.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I and particularly I think that plays out well for what I do professionally, right?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: In human resources.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: I have earned the right to hold the mirror up to leaders and to how they make decisions and to really give them pause to think about how did they get there and how do they explain themselves and what does it look like in the next morning?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And do we feel good about that?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do we understand the consequences of our decisions because of who we are and the authority that we have and that we've been endowed with?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I I I like to constantly do a a gut check, you know, for myself as well as for the people that I work with.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: So in your life, if you think about your definition, when was the first time that you spoke truth to power?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: So what it was at work.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was I had confronted a leader.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: She complained about me to her manager, who happened to be the executive head of sales.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: I got a call.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: He basically, you know, took me to school on it.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I said to him, you know what?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: I fully appreciate your right to be upset, but there's only one person who can talk to me that way, and it's my father.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: You are not my father.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: So if this doesn't work for you, just let me know, and I'm happy to step down and step aside.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: But that is that's not working for me.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: I did not get fired.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I got an apology.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that was the first time I realized that I couldn't speak for myself and that I had an obligation to speak for myself.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: So somewhere that came with you, right?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're taught at certain points in our life it's okay to do the right thing for yourself.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we know it's okay to do the right thing for others, but sometimes doing the right thing for ourselves comes at a slower pace.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it doesn't always, it's not the first thing we do.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: So in your mind, what what does it take to be able to do that?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or kind of what were the ingredients that made that moment happen for you?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think some of it, Lee, was panic, right?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I knew that I knew the call was coming.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I was I was a little bit bracing myself for the worst, which came.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I doubled down because I didn't have anything to lose.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he he absolutely could have just said, pack up your things and get out of there.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: So at that point, you know, when you reach a point in overturn where something's gonna happen to you and you can either choose to lie down and take it, or try and try and face it down.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what that's what I did.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it was it, I gotta say, it felt really good to come out on top of that one.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's funny you talk about you learn that, you taught that.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I'm a second generation, my parents immigrated here, and we I was not taught that.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was taught the value of meritocracy.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: You keep your head down, you hope your work speaks for itself.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: You don't draw attention to yourself, your work draws attention for you and you don't make waves.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so for a long time, it was just turn the other cheek.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I started to lean into my Western values, which was no, you've got to raise your hand, you've got to speak up for yourself, you've got to ask for a seat um at the table and a spot on the field.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And those were those were hard times because it did not come naturally.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I think after sort of being marginalized for so long, I just it no longer felt good, no longer felt acceptable.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw other people role modeling that behavior and said, I think I can do that.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that was really a seminal moment when I realized I can do that.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you think, you know, doing that usually leads to like the next moment and the next moment and like being able to, you know, stand in your strength, stand in who you are.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I bet there's many people listening that had that moment of like, oh shoot, like this is coming.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I I like have a choice of I'm gonna stand up for myself or I'm gonna, you know, take it again and kind of just go through the paces of something I don't believe in or don't agree with.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, what do you think when when people do that, they stand up for themselves and it felt good.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: It felt you felt empowered, most likely.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's how I would feel in that moment.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think it then leads to the opportunity or the next step that you might take?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And like, like for you in your career, like, where did you go next in that sense?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, it was such a confidence builder, right?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: And confidence begets more confidence and it helps you bounce back from the next failure, which invariably came, right?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was still very early in my career.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think I was all at 24 when that happened, right?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: But then I was able, I found that I was able to have much more robust conversations with the colleagues around me because I was just a little bit more, hey, I I have a point of view, I have a perspective, and I think I can add value here.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: And when you can project that kind of confidence, it's a little bit of fake it until you make it, right?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wasn't suddenly a brand new person after that incident, but I was definitely a little bit bolder, right?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: To use to use your word, and that has a cumulative effect, and people respond to that.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And over time, I just I felt psychologically stronger.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people respond to strength, you know, positive strength, right?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's also bullies, yeah, right, which you also have to take on.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I my career didn't suddenly take a meteoric rise from there, but I was able to make a lot more choices that felt good for me.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it it kind of like you said, confidence, you know, creates more confidence, and mistakes happen.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's part of being bold too, is like, you know, it doesn't always work.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: At least in my case, it didn't.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's right.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you learn from that, like, oh, that was a little too much, or that you know, like they didn't want to hear everything I had to say, at least on speaking for me.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, speaking truth to power also means some discretion, right?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you have to wield that carefully.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I I remember getting some feedback, they're like, Angela, your your words carry meaning, so it's great that you that you're willing to engage, but also, you know, know when the timing is right for that because you you don't want to be cavalier with that.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: So did you always set out to kind of be in human resources and talent development?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: How did you come into this space that you're in right now and the difference that you're making in it?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: So a little bit was dumb luck.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Flying to college, like who knows what they want to do when they're 18, right?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just knew I I couldn't do science and math.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so my dad said, well, probably a business major, and we discovered this program at Cornell.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a very proud alma mater, and it led me to human resources, and I've been doing that for 30 years.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: As it turns out, I think I'm really wired for this work.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: I am incredibly gratified when I can help a single person with a single instance as much as I am with helping entire enterprises, right, undertake a massive change management effort.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I, a friend of mine called it corpusing, right?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: You're above the water, 30,000 feet view, and then you're diving in, getting into the seaweed, really figuring out what's going on on the on the ground floor.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so the variety of the work, the level of the impact, right?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's it's micro, can be just as meaningful as the super macro stuff.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's what I enjoy about what I do.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Some of it's you know, across an organization, and some of it's just one-to-one with someone.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much power in both.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: To see the impact and the outcomes on either level, to me, they're the same.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just I know I'm making a difference, right?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I do what I do.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think about where you are now and some of the challenges you're seeing in the workplace, specifically for women, and in you know, I I think we do have our own unique challenges in some spaces and places.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, from my own perspective, I think it was hard to be bold, I think at times, knowing that, you know, punitive measures could occur, or if you know, you didn't do the right thing, or you didn't say it the right way, or you came on to this or to that, insert, you know, whatever, too strong, too loud.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I think that's challenging in some of the places that we work is that we're not always able to be our full selves at work.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think organizations are figuring that out now of like how to do that, and even how to work with people in some of the hybrid environments we're in.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: In your world and kind of the expertise that you have specifically in human resources, where are the key things that we should be paying attention to as leaders?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And why is it important for us to pay attention to them now in 2023?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I mean, honestly, Lee.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, for both of us working as long as we have, we should have been paying attention to this 30 years ago.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're a little behind some of the things.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is this is an age-old question, right?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I, you know, I it's it's something that we we observe, right, when we're little girls.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: We learn too late that we should not be in competition with each other.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: For for a very long time, I think we think the paradigm is a win-lose.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the earlier we can recognize that it's a win-win, that when we help each other, that when we're not just allies, but we're advocates and sponsors, there's real power.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm sure like you, there are a lot of times when I was the only, not only was I the only woman, but I was also the only person of color.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And in human resources where it's thought of as sort of a soft skill, and so I wasn't seen as technical.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you what, if I give my seat up to anybody else, they'll find this work is pretty damn technical.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: I would say so, yeah.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't know the world.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, as a leader and a chief, I've been in, you know, in partnership working with someone in your role, and it is absolutely technical.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many things that you need to know.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many regulations that you need to know, there's so many processes you need to know.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like it goes on and on.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: So so I think there has to just be an awareness that until we can reach critical mass, every single one of us has to lift each other up.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we and then we need to find in the people who do occupy the seats, the men in those seats, that they probably have a wife, they certainly have a mother, they might have a sister, and they might have a daughter, and just exercise that empathy muscle a little bit and think about what kind of world am I making for the people that I care about that are with pretty compelling vision.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think in the in the sense of our careers, like I, you know, I'm in my mid, I guess beginning 50s, not my mid-50s, but I'm 51.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, in the sense of like thinking of a sponsor, I don't think I ever had one, honestly, as I came through, you know, my roles.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: I had definitely had a mentor, you know, I definitely had people guide me who cared to a point, but no one said, let me open the door, let me move this chair up so you sit here.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was kind of like it's interesting just as I think back about that.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Not really a sponsorship of what I would think is sponsorship.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I I do think that the other people, you know, the mentors and those that guided were helpful along the way.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And like I hope to sponsor, and you know, part of even this podcast is to amplify all the good stuff people are doing.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think about your career and kind of as you progressed, what's a memory of sponsorship and what did that look like for you?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it was actually super recently, and it wasn't someone that I knew was a sponsor.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So here at Harvard Business Publishing, you know, we have a board of directors and it's made up of faculty and practitioner.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: This gentleman and I I have to give him a shout-out, David Carey.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: He's the senior vice president of public communications at Hearst Corporation, and he nominated me to sit on a board for the T.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Howard Foundation.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that foundation, their mission is to promote diversity in the media and publishing industry.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even know he was going to do that.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: He and I had never talked about it, but there was something in me that he saw, and he afforded me this opportunity.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I could not be more grateful.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just so powerful because I he didn't do it for any credit, he didn't do it for any accolade.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it was completely unbidden.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I just thought that the power of that sponsorship really illuminated for me that now on my stage of career, I have to be doing that for others.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why you see my activism in these pan-Asian organizations.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: I have students at my alma mater who reach up for me on LinkedIn.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And to the best of my ability, I try to respond and I try to spend time with them because you know, when I was growing up in my career, I didn't see a lot of Asian women and certainly didn't see them in the C-suite.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, when they reach out and they say, Oh my gosh, you're my role model, I'm like, you don't know anything about me.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: I could be lousy at my job.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: But just by virtue of what they see in my profile, right?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's something about them that emboldens them to reach out to me, which I think I should only reward with yes, do more of that for yourself.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Saying yes to someone who asks, right?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you know them, it's so important.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: And those yes moments add up to someone's confidence or connections, or you never know.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, 15 minutes.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't take an hour.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to take an hour.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's important for people to hear that too.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like it, I don't think you're ever at any level.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and personally, I just don't think I I hope I don't ever get to that level where I can't talk to someone for five to 10 minutes just to connect if they reach out or just to understand kind of how could I help, or what can I learn about you?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because maybe you could actually help me.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not always, you know, that way.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you sometimes you don't even know.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, you just knew someone who knew of you, knew of your work and and what you do and your ethics around it.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And here you are now on the board, being able to impact others with the work that you do, not only in your role, but also on the board.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, one of the things I think women, a lot of the women I work with are working towards that board seat, right?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're they're actively seeking and going out and and looking for it.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it sometimes seems elusive for them.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Would you have any guidance or thought on that of what they should or shouldn't do as they're seeking those board seats?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I continue to hear over and over again that the best way to get a board is through your network, even more so than landing your next job.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Activities like this, efforts like this, reaching out, getting to know people, spending five minutes to connect with them, perfecting your elevator pitch.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's something that I'm talking to early career folks a lot about.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like you never know who you're gonna be with in an elevator.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so, what's your 60-second pitch and how can you add value to that audience?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think not enough of us have that in our back pocket.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Can you distill how you can make impact in literally 60 seconds?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it takes it takes practice, right?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be intentional about that.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: But once you've got that committed to memory, it's it's really important to have that in your back pocket.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so as many times as you can spread that pitch, people will help you connect the dots.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: You and I both belong to Chief, and there's incredible power, and people being like, I can help you with that.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Let me help you with that.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: I want to help you with that.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's a lesson I've learned.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: This networking will land you the next board seat.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody I know who's on a board found it through somebody else.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and ask.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes people don't reach out.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm very bold in who I reach out to.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was bold and reached out to you.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know if she'll accept, I don't know if she'll even talk to me.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so but I think in that sense of just being able to connect, because I think sometimes we have this idea in our mind that we're not good enough or we shouldn't, you know, be able to just speak to someone.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this morning I talked to the CEO of Time, Jessica Sibley, and again, just another reach out of, you know, I'm gonna try and see if she responds.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And she's incredibly lovely.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like it just, you never know until you try.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's part of being bold too, right?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: In your work, was there a never uh you never know until you try that you can think of that comes to mind?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think any significant change effort is about let's try it.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's one less thing that we know that doesn't work.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I remember actually at Harvard Business Publishing, we're only about three years into our DEI journey, and it was a grassroots effort by an employee who said, We should be practicing this.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: We publish it, we're out there preaching it, we're selling it to our clients.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And she took on the senior executive team and said, I want to spearhead this, right?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's an example of someone who's willing to try.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't easy.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: The first year buy-in wasn't immediate, but she kept at it.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: She had the grit and she had the resilience and the passion.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and her work started to take and you know, the business case started to really bear itself out.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that's not my own story, but you know, I I think that every time we can make space for people to do that.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And in human resources, I think part of my role is greasing the skids for others, right?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is helping every employee find a space where they can add value and take that risk and feel safe enough to do that.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: The biggest misunderstanding with the DEI efforts, because it seems like everyone's doing them, everyone's attempting to do something, or is at least communicating, they are.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I think one of my challenges that I've had is like, where's the measure of it?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: And why is it taking so long?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: I always feel like if we put our minds to things, we have so many smart, intelligent people doing these things.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why isn't it moving?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: I just would love your insight into like what do you think we need to do to move the needle faster?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll I'll go back to your first question, which is you know, where do we end up?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we end up with they're not having to be DEI departments or heads of DEI, right?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's just so embedded in your business that it just becomes a strategic imperative, like your sales revenue, like your product strategy, your customer sector.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's just part of you.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it's just part, and it's inclusivity in every single dimension, right?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's in thoughts, it's an experience, it's an educational attainment, it's in socioeconomic status.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just the color of your skin or how you identify racial, right?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that that is a big journey.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: But that for me is when we say we no longer need a department specifically dedicated to DEI, then I know we've reached it.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Why aren't we moving there fast enough?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so for the first time ever, we have five generations in the workforce, and we know that the youngest cohorts are demanding it.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I think when it comes time when you know the Gen Y and what is it, the Gen Alpha that's coming up next when they are the majority of leadership, that's when we're gonna see true acceleration.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's still too much discomfort with what it means.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: It is politically charged for us, especially in the US.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's incredibly polarizing.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you get organizations to move together on something that we can't agree on?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I think increasingly the younger generations have a pretty clear picture of the change they want to see, and they are gonna be really, really intolerant, which is kind of ironic, right?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's about tolerance, but it's intolerance for you know, they're not gonna be tolerant for intolerance.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we're just gonna have to wait for that next wave of leaders to show us how it's done because there's too many of us still entrenched, that it's either not necessary, that it's too scary, that it's a diversion of resources from other things that are more important.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there are certainly organizations that are doing it well, but it's not universally being embraced as something that is a business comparative.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, what what can we do while we're waiting for the change?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I get a little impatient when someone's like, wait, like it's coming, it's gonna happen.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, what are the things that even if you said like the top two things that we can do in organizations now to start either laying the groundwork or being truthful and and and authentic about our efforts?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that you would say we can do as leaders?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one of the things I think is a little bit of a branding exercise.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe don't call it DEI.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just talk about how do we make how do we make sure our employees feel safe to bring their full selves to work and feel valued?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like how do we amp up their sense of productivity?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: How do we get them more engaged?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's really what inclusivity is, is right, it's creating space where people can speak truth to power.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go back to the beginning, right?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: What we we shouldn't have to wait for people to have that courage.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: We should just automatically give them an environment where everybody just feels safe and they can throw in crazy ideas because good ideas can come from anywhere, regardless of the seat that you're in.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think a little bit of that don't don't call it DEI, but it's in service of that.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then, yeah, just continue to lift other people up and be their allies, be their mentors, and be their sponsors, and bring in more people that have.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Different lived experiences because that enriches the fabric of an organization.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Again, you know, we only just drop the educational requirement just to get really granular.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: We only just drop the educational requirement a year ago.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that is that is an artificial barrier to experiences.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so the more that we can dismantle the things that we thought used to be required, the faster we can.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes I think we hold on to like the past a bit too much of like this is absolutely you know, one of my sayings I cannot stand is this is how we've always done it.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: When I hear organizations say that to me, I was like, Well, that's why you're getting what you're getting.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm with you.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm with you.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely right, like.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I think for people to realize that they can be that spark.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think at any level of any organization, it does you don't have to have a title, you know, like you can be that spark.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's something that I I've always felt like I had that.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was kind of ingrained in me from probably birth by my mom and dad.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like you go, girl, like you keep going.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's gotten me in trouble at certain times, you know, because like, wait a minute, I'm not welcome here.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: What's up with that?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you know, I just for people to realize you don't have to have a title to make a difference, and you don't have to have a degree to make a difference.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're already doing it.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And just keep, you know, keep your light on, and you will be surprised how many people get attracted to that, you know, the of the things that you're doing, the glow that you have.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, just for people to realize that and hear your words as well, and making sure people realize that their potential to do good or have an impact is not relying on someone else saying so.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, at Harvard Business Publishing, we believe that everyone is a leader, right?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: To that point, and and our work is to try to unlock that in everyone.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so we really take that to heart.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's you know, that's part of our mission.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you're absolutely right.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: I being bold, I I I love this.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Lee, I'm really gonna like codify that, you know, using the word bold a lot more often.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: But organizations also have an obligation to allow that boldness to come back.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like free it.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's maybe like that's just we're paying for it.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, we'll pay you for it.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh yeah, sign me up for that one, Angela.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, from that perspective, just people realizing that sometimes, like for me, I know that was the big thing when I went from kind of the corporate environment to the entrepreneurial world that I'm in now.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, scary, you know, you have fear on all that, but like it is so freeing.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it doesn't mean there isn't stress and doesn't mean that things don't go wrong on certain times, but you figure it out, and then I think there's just so much power in that freedom to to feel like you can be bold and to go, okay, it didn't work, or okay, we don't match, and we're gonna just both move on.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Great to meet you, you know.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great point, where like find a place where you where your light can shine, right?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: If they're just continually putting it out, maybe it's time to find a new place.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like someone's putting out your light, it's probably time to move on so you can shine.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I love to end on that.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for being on the Bold Lounge, Angela.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: More information about Angela and how to connect with her and the work that she does is below in the episode notes.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Through the continuum of Bold Stories, vulnerability to taking the leap, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others to share the journey of those with a bold mind.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.