Latest / The You Project / #2178 Listening, Not Just Hearing - Bobby Cappuccio

Transcript

#2178 Listening, Not Just Hearing - Bobby Cappuccio · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's Tiff, it's Bloody Bobby, it's me.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's Craig Anthony Harpertus. It's the Project Project that you
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: It's a Thursday here in the thriving metropolis, it's a
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Wednesday night over there in the US. We'll start with
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: the boy from the US who's just rugged right up.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: It can't be that cold, mate, because I think you're
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: heading into summer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: What it's like. It's forty degrees out here. What are
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: you talking about?
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: When does summer start officially? Now?
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: It's hit.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's very warm out here.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So you're saying it's like a male model who's
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: just wearing all the scarves at once. It's just come
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: out onto the runway. He didn't want to go out
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: twelve times, so we wore them all. Well.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: I was actually in the middle of sharplifting and then
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: I realized I've got a podcast that you project, So
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: I ran out of the sharp and I didn't have
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: time to take them off my neck.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: And now I feel part of your criminal enterprise. I
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: feel bad, Tiff, how are.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: You very good?
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Thank you?
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: Got Papa Bear at my house. At the moment, we're
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: a week with the old older I'll call him Papa Bear.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Good, Well, I caught up with the aforementioned dad
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: and you last night. We had a little bit of
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: a bite and your dad's got a lovely nature. And
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: as you know, I took the piss from about the
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: first two minutes, and he just did you know, he
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: just deals with it and he laughs and he gets
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: more than well you know him. Obviously, I don't know
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: him so well. But like a few things I slid
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: in there. I thought I can slide it in because
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: he won't know what the fuck on, but tiff will laugh, right,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: And he laughed. He knew what was going on, like.
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you did not give away with the things you
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: thought you might, which was no.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: I thought I was just being a bit so in appropriate.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah they were, but he fucking loved it. I asked
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: him if he has any you know, lady friends where
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: he lives, and if he does the dance with no pants.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: He knew exactly what was going on there, God bless him,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: and he loved it. Do you know what I think?
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Old dudes like it when people don't talk to them
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: like they're an old dude, You know what I mean?
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know. That's just my defense of my own
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: horrendous behavior.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: How do you talk to an old dude like well,
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: what do you mean?
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: No?
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes people, well intended people, are a little
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: bit condescending, like they talk to them like they're three. Oh,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: get a Bobby, how are you? How is your day going?
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Have you been for you know? It's like that, like
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: fuck off?
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: And he talks to me like that, what do you mean?
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I don't know. I don't know.
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: It's maybe telling you something, Bobby.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: That's especially those women in the white dresses, it's insufferable.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Have you joined that? Are you back there?
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: Am I ware in that.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Cult again with the lady and the white ladies in
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: the white dresses? Hey, I was thinking about this is ridiculous,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: but I wanted to ask you before. So your birth
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: name is Robert not Bobby? Or am I wrong on that?
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: Uh?
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: Well yeah, my birth name is Robert.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: My birth name is Joseph, but that's actually now my
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: middle name, right, they bumped it.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: So I was thinking about, like, so with Robert, you
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: can get Robert, you can get rob, you can get Robbie,
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: you can get Bob. There's like quite a lot of
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: acceptable variations, but there's not a lot you can do
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: with tiff, is there?
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: Oh?
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Tiffany, tiff tiff O, Tiffy, seen a Jiffy Tiffy. What
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: are your best friends call you? Like your your close friends,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: they just call you tiff.
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, tiff tiff I've had tiffa Tiffo. Scott's latest
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: is Cooko.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Is there any historical name like mine was Jumbo for
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: about nine years? Eight years, right? And then my close
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: family friends all call me Crago. So my surrogate sisters
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: I have in the bush, all four of them, and
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: that we grew up with, and probably about fifteen people
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: in my world call me Crago. And if they called
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: me Craig, it's straight away weird. But then if the
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: people who call me Craig called me Crago, it's straight
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: up weird. Do you have that with anyone who just
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: calls you like his family? I didn't know this for
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: nearly ten years. Her family calls her missy. Oh, like
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: the family, the nephews, the grandma's, the parents that they
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: don't call her Melissa ever. Yeah, so they call her missy.
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: I don't even think I noticed. So if people call
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: me Tiff or Tiffany. It doesn't it doesn't matter. I
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: find it funny when I write my name, I write Tiffany,
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: and I probably refer to myself verbally as tiff, which
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: I think is weird, isn't it?
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah? What about you, Bobby?
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: That?
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: What does your mum call you? Does she call you Robert?
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Well Robbie? Yeah? Who else?
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: I wasn't allowed to be called Bobby when I was
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: a kid. I was strictly forbidden really use the name Bobbie.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: It's actually really it's not a story. I'll get into it.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: I find it absolutely hilarious.
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: So it was just you just were not allowed to
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: use the name Bobby. Why.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: I have no idea what is stuff? Father connected it
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: to gangsters?
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: Who know?
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: What is your beautiful wife? Amy call you that week? Yeah?
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Cool? Well I don't know why I started there. I
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: was just thinking that. So you wrote a thing the
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: other day I want to chat to you about well done.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: I was scrolling and I was in a hurry, but
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: I had a brief glimpse at it that I thought
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: you might be able to unpack and then we could,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: in turn think about because I think for many of
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: us it's something that we're.
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: Not great at.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: I'm generalizing, so don't get offended any I think a
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: lot of us are at times not very good at this.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we can be real good at it when we focus.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: It's something that for a lot of my life I
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: don't think I was amazing at and I feel like
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: in the last decade or so, I've made a lot
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: of progress with because I've become very intentional about listening,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: like intently listening, being present, being emotionally and mentally available
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: for that person rather than just sitting there kind of
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: listening thinking about something else. So you or you shared
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: I think it was on LinkedIn. I think it was
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: a four level kind of framework of listening. I can't
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: remember who created that framework on model you'll tell me,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: of course, but can you unpack a bit of that
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: with us as a starting point, and then I want
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: to go from there because I think maybe listening is
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: almost the perhaps the weakest part of our communication in general.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: We're not typically taught listening.
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: I mean, we're taught about.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Listening, we're not taught how to engage in listening. I
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: think the misconception is listening as an intention, it's not
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: actually a skill with dynamic complexity and layers to it,
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: which it absolutely is, and that misconception causes a lot
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: of problems in life and work. The model I think
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: you're talking about is Artoshima from Very Ear Because you
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: said four.
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: Levels yep, yep, and auto show.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, So I was just going to say, can
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: you kind of unpack that?
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: So he breaks down these four levels of listening basically,
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: and the first one is how we most often navigate
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: through life, especially under times of higher arousal or any
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: type of stress.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: So it doesn't matter.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: It could be excitement, it could be anger fear, where
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: we are listening for things that already support a cognitive biases,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: what supports our worldview, and we're selectively listening, and we're
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: doubling down on those things, so we're not really listening
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: at all. We're kind of like navigating, dissecting, and mining
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: for confirmation biases.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: And when you go a little.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Bit deeper, and this is if you've ever been to
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: a sales course, this is the level that they operate
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: on factual listening, where it's like, Okay, I want you
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: to listen and don't say anything. It's not act of listening.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: It's more like just not speaking or cutting someone off,
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: which is a really good start, But it's the level
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: of factual listening where I am listening for details and
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: tangible information. And then everybody's done with the exercise. Okay,
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: who remembered four things? About the person who remembered five?
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: Anyone remember six? And the person who can remember the
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: most amount of details is the best listener of that exercise.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: But problem is, that's still about me. I'm not actually
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: with you. I'm just doing a better job not dissecting
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: and downloading. I'm off to a great place, but I'm
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: not really with you. I'm listening for what you say.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: But when we go to the third level, this is
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: where listening becomes immersive. This is where listening becomes active.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: This is where it becomes a collaborative partnership. It's not
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: just what you say, but it's what you mean and
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: what's the emotion or context behind what's being said, And
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: that's critically important.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Sorry, I was just going to say, I feel like
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: that level is where you're starting to plug into someone
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: emotionally and like understand them. I think, correct me if
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: I'm wrong. I feel like a little bit it is
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: about the intention behind the listening, Like listening could be
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: just a data collecting exercise for self advantage, Like I'm
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: listening because I want to hear I either want them
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: to tell me I'm right, or they think like me,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: or they like me, or I want to get some
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: information from them that can be useful for me. So
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: they may well be listening intently, but it's the motivation
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: or the intention behind the listening that makes the difference.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Is that part of it.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, one is to collect in from me. The other
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: one you're being guided by empathy, where you are imaginatively
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: projecting yourself into the thoughts, the situations, feelings, and context.
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: Of that other person.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: With a level of distancing, you know you don't want
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: to become overwhelmed or experience emotional contagion. Where I think
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: before you get to that level that the only other
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: option is listening from such a distance that you're connecting
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: through sympathy. I find sympathy extremely disrespectful. It's not a
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: rapport builder. It's a divider. It widens a chasm between
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: two people because of how you frame that individual from
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: a sympathetic lens. And again, sympathy is all about you.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with the other person whatsoever.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Heard I've never heard that expand on that. So sympathy
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: is all about you and sympathy is disrespectful. I don't
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: think I've ever heard those ideas full.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: What I think sympathy is when you feel for someone.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Empathy is when you feel with Sympathy usually comes with
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: a subtle bit of judgment. It can even come with contempt.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Oh poor you, I feel so sorry for you. That
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: must be so horrible to be in your situation. And
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: the subtle message there is the person you're speaking with
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: is either incapable or unwilling to do anything to change
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: their situation. So you're communicating from a perspective of contempt,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: and it's very hard to reflect and understand the person
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: and create a level of safety where you can go
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: deeper or expand the context of the conversation or help
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: somebody see their situation with any greater clarity. I think
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: sympathy shuts people down quite a bit, and sympathy is
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: about you at the end of the day, where it's
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: how that person's situation is impacting you in the moment,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: versus empathy. Even when it's uncomfortable because you're connecting with
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: and feeling with, you're more likely to sit in it
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: with that person. I mean, sitting in complete silence in
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: a conversation is actually a form of empathy, and it's
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: extremely productive. I know, not on this podcast, but sitting
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: with somebody in complete silence for a while and gaps
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: in the talking and the conversation that connects two people
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: at a very profound level. I don't think you can
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: do that without an element of empathy, because empathy tunes
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: you in to kind of like the frequency that that
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: person is operating from.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Do you think we can universally say that just sitting
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: and not talking is always good, Like you said, it
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: connects people, it brings people together. I can think of
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: several scenarios where that would not be true. I think
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: I agree with you as a general and I know
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: what you mean, and I'm not pushing back against the concept.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I just think I get weary when we go we
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: make categoric statements. This equals that I don't think sitting
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: in silence always equals a good outcome or a deep connection.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: And also I don't think that sympathy is always disrespectful.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: I think I think sympathy and empathy can coexist because
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: I can feel for somebody but also feel connect with
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: their feelings. I don't know. It's an interesting idea, though, Cook.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Have you got an idea on this? Have you got
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: an opinion on this? Yeah?
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: I was, I probably feel a little bit like you
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: doing that. I don't. I feel like sympathy maybe holds
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: a little bit of distance, a little bit less leaning
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: in as empathy, but I don't feel that it is
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: necessarily aligned with judgment or disrespect as much or doesn't
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: have to be.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's definitely interesting, though, because I think there's truth
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: in both. I think there's truth in what you're saying,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: and I think in many cases that would be true,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: but in some cases not Where does that? Is that
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: a you idea or is that a someone else's idea?
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: The idea that sympathy can be mate? Is it possible
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: that sympathy is well intended but unknowingly disrespectful?
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: Or could you know it could be? And I agree
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: with both of you.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: Where nothing is ever universal, something so versally true two
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: plus two is universally true. But a lot of our
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: perceptions and the way we communicate and engage I feel
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: uncomfortable using words like never always. So, of course things
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: can be highly destructive in one situation and constructive in another.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Where I feel like sympathy, there is an intention and no,
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: this is not my this is not my information, this
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: is these are not my thought processes.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: I'll give you an example.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: A couple of people are in a car and they're
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: driving by an area where there's a lot of homeless people,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: and it's like, oh man, that must be horrible, must
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: be horrible to live like that, where there's this slight
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: connotation there where again, it's where that you can almost
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: look at it like a spotlight. I often use the
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: analogy of Tony and Maria and West Side Story and
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: what happens when they're in the middle of a busy
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: gymnasium and they have all the reason give what's going
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: on between the Jets and the Sharks. For those of
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: you who don't know, those are the two rival gangs
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: that just thought spontaneously singing, jumping, slapping and snapping for
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: no reason whatsoever, which you can admit, like two rival
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: gangs snapping and skipping, it's terrib going on in the gymnasium.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: These two people have every reason in the world to
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: be distracted. But once they see each other, everything else quiets.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Everything fades to black, and there are these two spotlights,
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: one for Tony, one for Maria, and as they come
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: closer together, those two spotlights symbolically merge into one and
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: they are with one another. And that's an intention, that's
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: their state of being. I think that's a lot closer
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: to what happens in empathy. Is you are with that
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: individual where sympathy is coming. It's more about you than them.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: You're inside of yourself. How is their situation impacting you?
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Your beliefs, your values, what you were doing this situation
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: whilst acknowledging Yeah, that must be horrible. So there is
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: this distancing that happens with sympathy.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: I wonder also if you know how like you know,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: we've spoken about talk therapy and the fact that for
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: some people talk therapy is great, it's therapeutic, it's healing,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: it solves or part solves a problem, but for other
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: people it almost makes it worse. Right, I was having
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: a talk with a lady called mary Anne van Lambert.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: She gets called meys. She's been on the show, and
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: there's something about like, for example, despite recent evidence, I
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: don't love like Tiff and I did are really good.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: I think it was a nice conversation a few weeks
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: ago about mum and dad, and I just kind of thought,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about this publicly. I'm going to
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: open the door wide open, and you know, talk about
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: what's going on with mum and dad and the psychology
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: and the emotions and the practicality and the medical and
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: all that stuff. And then I went, right, let's let's
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: not overtalk that again. So sometimes when really well meaning
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: people say to me, what's going on with mum and dad,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: and You've been kind of talking about that all day
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: because you've been talking to doctors and nurses and dieticians
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: and physios and you know, the care people at the
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: facility and the customer service people. And I'm constantly making
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: decisions and solving problems and addressing issues and working and
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: all of that. And then by the time, like yesterday,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: would have been on the phone ten times about different stuff.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: But then once I'm done, I don't really want to
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: go and debrief with somebody for another twenty minutes. It
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: kind of makes me just drags me back into that
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: emotional space.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: That stuff.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: But my long winded, fucking point, excuse me, is that
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: while talking about stuff, for me, I'm not a big
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: you know, if there's a problem, I want to fix
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: the problem. I'll acknowledge there's a problem or something stuff,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: but I don't want to talk about it for the
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: next thirty minutes because it makes me feel worse, not better.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: But the funny thing is when I talk to Mary Anne,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: it's like because she's been through it with both her parents,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: and she's probably the most compassionate person I know, if
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: not in the top few, it's different. So I think
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: even with listening to people, it's different. Things are going
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: to work for different people, like as in I don't know,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: I just think your energy and how you show up,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: and whereas for some people that like I can say
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: to some people, like I've shared on the show. A
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: few weeks ago, I saw a guy in the cafe
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: that I know a bit not well, but I know
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: him pretty well. I went get how things going, and
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: he went yeah, yeah, yeah, And I could tell that
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: that was a lie. And I grabbed him on the
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: elbow and I looked at him and I said, are
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: you all right? And his eyes got watery, and I said,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: how are you really? And he started to cry right,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: and we went and sat down and spoke. But if
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: I did that with another person, that would have been
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: a catastrophe potentially. I just think it's knowing how to
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: listen and how to be and like it's shit you
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: can't teach right because when do I step up? And
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: when do I step down? When do I open the door?
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: When do I close the door? Like there's a there's
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: a there's a wisdom in the middle of it that
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: doesn't fit into a framework or a model.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: And I think there's a really valid point and there's
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: a recognition, as was an appreciation about how complex truly
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: listening to someone else. Yeah, I mean it wasn't what
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: he said. You were listening to what wasn't said, and
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: the incongruence between what he was communicating verbally and what
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: he was communicating nonverbally. What do you feel that distinction
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: is where you So if I would have done that
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: with someone else, maybe it I want to have had
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: the same response. What do you think creates that When
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: it really connects, it lands where you had observed the
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: right thing at the right time, you were completely present
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: and that moved that individual, it got a consumptive response,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: So I think one of my many flaws, one of
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: my biggest flaws that I've been working on diligently for
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: I would say twenty years, since I was forty, is
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: that I was inherently selfish only child, building a business,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: doing good things, looking for the accolades, looking for the
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: self esteem boost, all that stuff. And I still did
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: nice things for people, and I still helped people, but
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: even in the helping people, there would be selfishness, right,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: And so the more that I try to be and
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: I still fall into that, and I still do stuff
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: that looks good, but it's really me trying to all
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: that shit. But I think I'm a lot more, or
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: I think I've tapped into that part of me that
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: opens into intuition and awareness, like a different kind of
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: and a different level of awareness. And just knowing that,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: like I said before, that not everything there's a four
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: or five step plan on model or protocol, and just
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: knowing that not everything that you need to know you're
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: going to find in a book, not everything. A lot
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: of things, but not everything, not about this person in
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: this moment, in this situation, in this context, at this time,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: on this day. You can't fucking look that up. You've
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: just got to be there. You've just got to go. Fuck,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: You've got to Whether or not it's learned, whether or
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: not it's acquired knowledge, whether it's experience, whether it's some
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: external message from some divine wisdom that people call different things,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know. And I've said this many times, and
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: I know it sounds weird, and if I was really
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: concerned about my ego, I wouldn't say it. But I
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: have felt many times that something comes through me, not
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: from me, a wisdom, an insight, are knowing. And I
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: don't think I've got I don't think I'm special at all,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: but I think I might have something of a gift. Again,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: nothing I earned or nothing I achieved, but I might
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: have a gift in reading people in real time. And
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: that's a skill and an ability and a gift that
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: I want to optimize. And so I'm I try to
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: get as much as I can out of in some situations,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: away from the acquired knowledge and the science and the
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: and that they're all good, but sometimes they're not.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: I feel like out of everything you just said, which
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: there's a ton of self awareness there say you just
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: got to be there. So when you are, what I'm
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: getting from this is when you are authentically leaning in
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: to your makeup as Craig Harper, your skills that you've developed,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: and you're completely present with an individual, you're able to
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: get your ego out of the way. It's kind of
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: going back to that analogy the gymnasium, all those distractions,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: your processes, your training, your three step process to help
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: that guy shift from where he is to where he
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: could be in that moment, your ego, it all fades
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: the black. That interference is gone because you have that
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: ability that you've developed. Maybe some of that's and something
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: innate in you that you've always known, but there's all
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: this interference, kind of like static on a radio that
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: is eliminated. When you show up. You just said you've
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: got to be there. You were there now, whether that
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: was three seconds and a coffee shop passing by, or
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: whether that was three hours sitting with a friend like
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: you and I have done many times.
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: You were there. So your intuition about what you were seeing,
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: what you were reading, and also what you were picking
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: up that wasn't being explicitly communicated allowed you to create
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: the right response at the right time. If that is
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: being present, that is listen. There is no active listening
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: with our presence.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Tiff and I have spoken a bit about this. From
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: this sounds a bit left of center, but from being
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: a great presenter, being on stage where some of it's about.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: You know, I got to a point when I was
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: about thirty where I was already speaking to groups and
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: the odd company, and I was lecturing students, and I
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: was doing lots of stuff, but my band with my
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: knowledge base, my knowledge bandwidth was somewhat limited. I knew
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: quite a bit about a small amount of things, right.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: So you know, Tiff and I have spoken together, both
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: of us about expanding our knowledge base. But then the
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: other bit of that, it's just all that emotional and
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: social and interpersonal wisdom insight ability to be able to
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: read the room or read the person and be while
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: still being one hundred percent you being what they need.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like it's going to sound weird. I've
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: never said this on a podcast. You know how people
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: grow up going, oh, I'm a piece of shit and
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: I'm no good, and I'll never that. I had a
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: bit of that. I have quite a lot of that,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: but I also had this. I also had this underlying
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: feeling is not adequate, but it's the closest that I
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: was meant to do something to help lots of people,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: like I wasn't born for no reason, and I've got
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: no way to prove this. And this could again once
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: again be my ego. But I feel like where I
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: feel most normal and natural is in this idea that
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: my purpose is to help people to help themselves, whether
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: or not that's as a coach or a speaker or
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: as a whatever, it is just a person sitting listening.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: And so I've always had that driver, and I feel
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: like my current life allows me to do that to
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: an extent, you know, And that so all of these
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: things we're talking about now, which is, you know, the
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: practical skill to be able to know what questions to ask,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: to know when to talk and when not to talk,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: but also the stuff that you know without having been taught,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Like that's the shit that's magic for me. What do
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: I know that nobody's taught me? What do I know
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: that I haven't read in a book or heard on
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: a video or seen on Instagram? What do I know?
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Or maybe more accurately, what do I think I know anyway,
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: and so when I'm less self doubting and I go,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know if this is right, but I believe
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: that it's right, and I just open that door. Generally
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: better things happen.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: We talked about this a few episodes ago, where humility,
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: I don't think can.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: Survive without a bit of eger.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: There has to be this thing where you know your
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: point of view and you know your intention, and you
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: know what you're good at, and you show up and
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: you can get yourself out of the way.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, dive Razowski.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: So all three of us have had him on our show,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: and one of the most beautiful things he did for
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: me when I was attending his immersive course. It was
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: like five it was six days, the first five days
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: with ten hours a day, and I thought it was
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: really difficult, but it was beautiful. Is I got stuck
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: in my head and when he called me out and
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: he demanded a response from me, I didn't have the
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: skill set, the experience of the context from which to
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: produce or response. I defaulted to, I don't want to
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: get in the way of the scene here. I don't
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: want to ruin this because everybody here is a seasoned
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: improvisational performer. I am not so I don't know what
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: to come in here with.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: I'm going to ruin it.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: And so I started in with that whole well, I'm
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: not good at this and I'm so horrible and everybody
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: else is so talented, and he threw me out of
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: the class. He's like, you know what, just get out.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: He didn't say get out. I think get the fuck
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: out was the exact words he used. He's like, I
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: have no patience for you. He's like, your ego is
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: too big for this class.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: And I'm like what he said. Yeah. He goes, look,
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: let's be honest.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: The person that comes in here and it's like, I'm shit,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: I'm not good at this. Everybody else is better than me,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: which wasn't the point I was making explicitly, but there
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: was a bit of that under there that he saw
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: that I was trying to deny, right, so he was
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: quite confronting. He said, that person is no different than
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: the person who walks in, looks around and goes, you know,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: I've been doing this for years. I perform every week.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: I'm better than everybody here. You're the same person because
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: both of you are somehow under the impression that anything
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: we're doing here has anything to do with you.
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: You're not that important.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Pay attention to what the person in front of you
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: wants and needs from you.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: How's about that?
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, He's like, if you're going
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: to pull this shit, don't come back after lunch. So
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: obviously I went out to launch and you know, I
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: complained a little bit moment of course.
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: If Joe John Hardy what to prick that guy is, yeah,
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: And I was like, wow, he's he he is so right.
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: And I came back in the afternoon. It was like
• 32:15
  Speaker 5: nothing ever happened. He welcomed me right back into class.
• 32:17
  Speaker 5: I thought, this guy is brilliant for me.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, either that'll bought Paula either way winning.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: He's brilliant.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: He called me right out on that on that ship.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: And you know, if you're going to go and learn,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: and I think you have to be in that space
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: where people are going to point shit out to you,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: and it's gonna be really uncomfortable because they can see
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: the game you're playing because you're running a racket. But
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: the thing is you're running a racket about your rackets,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: so you don't even realize you're doing this anymore? And
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: do you want to grow or do you want to
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: have somebody tell you you're amazing and make you feel comfortable?
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: And that is that is such at the core of
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: this whole fabrication of of No, I want you to
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: give me feedback. No, you don't. You sure don't you
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: want me to tell you you're fantastic, you're doing a
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: good job, and you're brilliant, and you've got to make
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: you want me to like when you actually give people feedback,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: that is not feedback they want, but it is feedback
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: that from your perspective being a more objective than them observer.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: That's I mean, I've lost friends over that where people go, no,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: tell me really whatever, and it's like, you're sure, and
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: then I would tell them that's it. It's like they
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: and it's hard because the shit that I've needed to like.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: I'll give you an example.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: I went to.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: South Africa in nineten ninety nine, so a long time
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: ago to I won't say the organization on my friend's name,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: but good organization, friend, great pastor of the church, real deal,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: good guy just wants to help people. So we went
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: over there to do some research and to look into
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: where the needs were with children nine ninety nine at
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: that time with AIDS, and I spent I paid to
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: be there. I flew myself over, I took two weeks
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: off work. It was you know, me, me, me, Oh,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: the sacrifice I'm making. And then I was working in
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: a place called Door of Hope, which was a house
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: converted to basically a place for babies with AIDS or
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: babies with who were HIV positive, sixteen of them, four rooms,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: four bunks, and I spent most of my days just
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: feeding babies, playing with babies and toddlers, and then visiting
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: other places like a place called Cotland's, which was a
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: hospital for children who are HIV positive or had advanced dates. Right,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: the toughest shit ever, not, you know, listen to me,
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: the toughest shit ever for me? No, you know, but
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: you think it's hard. No, it's hard for them, It's
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: not hard for you anyway, in the middle of me
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: doing all this good stuff, and you know, thinking how
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: fucking noble I was that I had traveled to the
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: other side of the world to do all this. I
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: can't even remember what it was about, but we had
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: a bit of a blow up. The pastor and me,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: and he said to me, you are selfish. You are
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: all about you, and I'm thinking, I'm literally on the
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: other side of the world working for a charity. And
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: I wanted to punch him in the face, which is
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: not very Christian. That would have been momentarily satisfying. I didn't,
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: and I was so pissed off at him. And so
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: this was maybe four in the afternoon. I didn't talk
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: to him till the next day. But that night just
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: this like little slither of curiosity came in and said,
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: all right, well, if is it possible that I'm even
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: though I'm here doing this, is it possible that I'm selfish?
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: And anyway, without going into the I was in a
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: way being selfish. I won't explain how, but I was.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: I was also trying real hard. But and when somebody
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: that you love gives you feedback that is absolutely not
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: what you want to hear, it's then that you really
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: figure out whether or not you want feedback. Because as
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: soon as people get feedback that isn't what they want,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: then instead of going oh fuck, I should deal with that,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: or I should think about that or explore that, they
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: immediately think the other person's just wrong. Well, that can't
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: be true, you know. And it's impossible to be objective
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: about ourselves because we are ourselves. We are never standing
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: outside ourselves watching the behavior or the words or the outcomes.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: We're always in the middle of it, which makes complete
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: objectivity impossible. So then you have these things that I
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: call unreasonable friends. Your unreasonable friends are people that you
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: love and trust and trust and love you. And I
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: think everyone needs one to three unreasonable friends that they
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: can tell you whatever they believe to be true in love,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: in kindness, knowing that you won't like it, but nonetheless
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: it's true, because I think we get intoxicated with our
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: own fucking, you know, greatness, Like I can easily think
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: I'm the fucking best person in the room. Just not true.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: What stood out in that story was you went back,
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: you had a little bit of distance from the pastor
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: and you reflected on that to your credit, thought, Okay,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: is there a part of this that's true actually? And
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: I think there's a couple of important distinctions. It's very hard,
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: even if you love someone and you're not an egomaniac,
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: when somebody who you care about you respect, someone who's
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: love and opinion is important, says something in the moment
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: your emotional brain is reacting, I don't know, twenty fifty
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: milliseconds before you're even consciously aware of how you're processing
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: that feedback. We're wired to detect threats, and social threats
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: are just as important as physical threats, because I mean,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: for most of our existence as a species, they were
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: the same exact thing. If you lost status or you
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: were rejected on a tribal level, you probably weren't dead
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: in the moment, but give it about twenty four to
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: thirty six hours.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: The odds are overwhelming. You will be.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: It's gonna be worse than if somebody just killed you
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: right then and there. So you're experiencing this emotional response.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Plus a lot of the aspects of you are so
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: deeply rooted in your belief systems. Maybe that behavior pattern
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: emerge to protect you in some way, help you deal
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: with a pain or an insult or a trauma that
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: you're struggling to cope with.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: So you create this persona So.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: It's very hard to absorb feedback constructively in the minute. Yes,
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: I think the key is are you willing to walk
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: away and reflect on that once you've calmed down, and
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: not everything someone says is true. It could be true
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: in the minute right then and there they're observing something,
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: but it's not characteristic of you. Or it could be
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: absolutely false, so there's a level of credit. Or it
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: could be bang on and nobody really had the love
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: and respect and the courage to tell you bluntly to
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: your face. So you got to reflect on that, and
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: you've got to compare that to the patterns that you
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: observe in yourself, things that maybe other people have said
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: to you that either connecting oh wow, you know this
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: is not the first time I've heard this, or I've
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: never heard this before. I usually hear just the opposite. Well,
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: might have more to do with the person giving feedback
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: than the person receiving it. So there's all these layers.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: But listening to that story reinforces how critical or reflective
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: practice is.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: And also, yeah, thank you, I love that. I think
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: also in twenty twenty six, a lot of the feedback
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: in inverted comments that we get, especially you know, through
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: social media, and they're like, it isn't feedback at all,
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: it's hate. So there's that dichotomy too. Well, how do
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: I distinguish between this person who loves me and is
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: sharing something that's very considered and they only want the
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: best outcome for me, versus old mate who's calling a
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: C word on social media thirteen times a week or so.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: There's that too, And I guess we're very we're very
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: gun shy. And if I'm being honest, do I like
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: feedback that's not positive? I don't like it? No, who
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: fucking likes it? But you know, it's sometimes it's definitely
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: worth considering. I think there's a whole there's a whole
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: conversation around probably research. There's probably research done on giving
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: and getting or giving and receiving feedback, Like that's got
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: to be a that's got to be a communication science
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: in and of itself.
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is, It absolutely is. There's there's a book
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: right here on my shelf. Hold on, where is it?
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: I think it's on the other side of a shelf.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Call Critical Conversations.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: Or hold on, all right, we'll just Bubby's just walking
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: off like a dog after it's eat and it's back. First.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: One book that's really helpful, and it's Crucial Conversations by Patterson,
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: Grannie McMillan and Switzler. They've they've written. Like few of
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: these authors have written some really good books. This happens
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: to be one of them. So if if anything that
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: we've talked about in the past five minutes is resonating
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: with you, is like I'd rather I want to learn
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: how to do that. Crucial conversations is a great.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Tool and the authors again just quickly.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: It's Patterson, Grannie McMillan, Switzler.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Thanks, Bobby tiff what's your go to when? Or firstly,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: do you ever feel compelled to share feedback with somebody
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: that you love that you know might it might be
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: a little bit clunky, And if so, what's your what's
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: your strategy or how do you go about that? Yeah?
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: I think I do because I think I but in
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: a way where I'm just I'm curious and I go
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: have you ever thought of this perspective? It's more of
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: a let's step out and look from a different angle.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Now you've spoken to me recently, we might say, but
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: about a couple of funny moments where Scott where he's
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: said something yeah, and you've kind of gone where he
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: sees something a certain way, it's not a problem and
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: you don't see it the exact same way, how do
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: you how do you navigate that with him? I think
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: you use humor a bit. I feel like that's your softener,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: that's your social softener, is to just be a little
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: bit cheeky and fun.
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. I had a really interesting I
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: was thinking about it before when we got in and
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: maybe it's a conversation for another day, but I had
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: a really interesting conversation with doctor Bill after member in
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: my last podcast I did with you and Scott where
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: you asked if we'd have any fights and I said,
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: he made a comment once maybe cry hit a hurt button.
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: It didn't mean to. And I had a conversation a
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: couple of weeks later, which was last week with doctor Bill,
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: and we got into this really interesting conversation reflecting on
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: what I needed out of that and the idea around
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: I needed an apology. I needed to ask here Scott
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: say I'm sorry, even though he didn't. It wasn't an
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: intention to hurt me, but I and when I needed
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: to ask for it, I felt really still. I was like,
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: I don't want to say it. I need you. I
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: need you to say sorry because that sounds bossy and annoying,
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: but I Also, I had realized that if he doesn't,
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: I would I need to hear that for whatever reason.
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: I know if I'll hold on to something if I don't.
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: And so doctor Bill and I were having this conversation
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: around he had a very different opinion himself on whether
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: or not we need to say sorry if someone doesn't
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: intend to hurt you with whatever they've done, if they
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: know if they accidentally cause you, and you and I
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: have had that situation before, and I brought that up.
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: I said, well, I've had somebody say to me, well,
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: you I don't think you meant to, but you did this,
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: and it actually doesn't land very well. And I said,
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: I have to say I say sorry doesn't mean I
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: meant to do it, but it means I know I'm responsible.
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: So I found that so interesting.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: Is that is also interesting is the idea that I
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: want you to say sorry, that's not on you just
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: in general? That idea, Yeah, when they didn't try to
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: hurt you in the first place, and they didn't know
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: they whatever, Yeah, and then off the back of that,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: after a request, they then say sorry. You're like, well,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: but then you didn't mean it, you know what I mean?
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: Because you wouldn't have said it unless I asked. Yes,
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: that's a kind of a conundrum or.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: The request deepens awareness because that can be weird. Okay,
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: I'm only apologizing because someone's just asking for it. Well,
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: that's not a sincere apology versus Oh, I didn't realize
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: that that had that impact on you. Yeah, because remember
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: remember when this, ah, god, this thing happened with this
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: guy from the UK with Turette's where he had said
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: at an rewards ceremony some very offensive and hurtful things
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: and I remember Amy and I were talking about this
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: and there was a lot of conversation on the internet
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: and it was like, he should absolutely say sorry, and
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: the people like, no, he's got he's got a disorder.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: He can't help what he said. He didn't mean to
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: say it, he didn't choose to say it. And you know,
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: because there was no intention there, what is he apologizing
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: for the guy? You know, the guy has an issue.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: And it's me having Tourettes listening to this, like, yeah,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: the apology is not I am sorry.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: I said this.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, when you have terrests, you don't even know what
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: you're about to say. It's I am sorry that something
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: that came out of my mouth, regardless of whether I
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: could have helped it or not, had a hurtful impact
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: on you.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: That's empathy.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: I'm apologizing for the impact I mean. And there was
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: a lot of opinions people say, well, if he said
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: what he said, he must have been racist and it
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: just came out. And it's like, in my experience, a
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: lot of things that come out of your mouth and
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying, I'm not saying it's not he very
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: well could have been or he cannot be. My personal
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: experience with tourets is the things that come out of
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: your mouth that you were in no way shape or
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: for unconsciously thinking, and it's not reflecting. And that like
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: I would say the most random things. It could be
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: something you heard in a conversation the day before. It
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: could be something that you know other people are thinking
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: or you know. With me, it was never again Coppyrelia,
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: I never had explotives come out of my mouth, but
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: it was Echoalia.
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: So I would just repeat.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: Random things, mostly from commercials. So it's kind of interesting,
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: but I feel like intentions one thing.
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: Impact is another.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: He's another kind of juxtapositioning idea around this saying something
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: offensive with intent, saying something just something that you have
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: no idea it's offensive and don't want it to be.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: And you say that one thing in a room and
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: there's ten people in you in the room and none
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: people do not get offended. They do not have an issue.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: They are not affected emotionally or mentally, and one person is.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: And then you go, oh, well, if I said one
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: thing to a group of people and ninety percent of
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: the people were not bothered, but one was, from, where
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: does the offense come? It seems to come from the
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: thinking or the processing of the individual who got offended,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: Because if the cause of the offense was the person
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: who said it or the words that they said, then
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: there would have been universal offense, and there wasn't. So
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: this is a really like the psychology of offense. It
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: fascinates me because you can't get me wrong. One thing
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: to your mate who laughs his ass off, or another
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: guy who gets hurt and offended and thinks sure, and
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: both of them are okay, they're not wrong.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: And there are people who wake up and pursue the
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: day eagerly anticipating an opportunity to be offended. So let's
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: let's be clear about that right soever, it's like, what
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: is your intention?
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: I'll give you an example. So I was given a
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: summarar one.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: Day and I had great book by Bill Irvine, A
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: Guide to the Good Life, and it's about stomic philosophy,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: and there was this one passage in there where he
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: was talking about gratitude, like empty gratitude practices kind of
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: like I'm not saying they do this in your office,
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: but you'll work in an office and people stand around
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: for the early morning gratitude practice. It's like, oh, my god,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for that spreadsheet that Jane completed. You know,
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: I'm so oh, I'm so happy. You know that my
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: puppy wagged its tail when I woke up. The splints
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: like what are we doing here? Like what is this?
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: What game were we playing?
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: And he was saying, if you really want to experience gratitude,
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: imagine loss for contract, Like, imagine someone you love so
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: much in the world and they're gone and you will
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: never see that person again. What are you going to
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: miss most? What are you really grateful for with this
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: person in your life? Now you're going to experience sincere
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: gratitude That also opens up your awareness to what that
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: person means.
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: And why, like, why are you grateful for this?
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: Now the person who you're imagining, let's say that's your
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: partner up, they walk right through the front door shortly
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: after you did that. You are not going to have
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: a repetitive, mindless, mundane conversation. Yes, it's not gonna be like, oh,
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: this empty how is your day? You're gonna be far
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: more intentional and that person and what they represent and
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: how you connect with them is going to be different.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: And I'm saying this in this room because the session
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: was about gratitude and one person in the back gets up,
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: burst out into tears in the middle of the class,
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: and storms out, and then people follow her. I didn't
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: know she had lost a member of her family a.
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: Couple of weeks ago.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and she had said outside, I will never come
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: to one of these seminars again. Now, did I have
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: an intention to harm somebody? No, just the opposite. Was
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: trying to give tools and practices that support emotional, mental,
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: and physical wellbeing. But had I had a chance to
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: speak to her, I didn't. Would I have apologized for that, Yeah,
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: not for what I said, But I didn't know. I'm
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: so sorry that had that impact on you, especially if
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: you're invested in the person, doesn't matter why they were offended,
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: because that's a great opportunity first acknowledge that, reflect that. Wow,
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: I see that.
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: That really hurt you. That was painful for you. Yeah,
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry about that.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: What did that mean for you? Like, what did you
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: interpret when I said that? Or did that? That's an opening,
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: that's a dialogue, that's a conversation, Because, honestly, Craig, I
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: think that any transformation in life, any connection, they all
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: start with conversations. I am increasingly convinced, whether it's a
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: conversation that I am having with you or Tiff, or
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: whether it's just a conversation I'm having in my head.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: I think conversations are the precursors to going anywhere constructive
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: or the opposite.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with everything you said. I also think
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: talking to a group of people that you don't know,
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: you don't know their background, their story, their personality, the
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: you know, emotional kind of style, or you know, state,
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: you could say anything that's going to offend anyone in
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: the room because you just you know, you just don't know,
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: and you can't know. You can't understand when you walk
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: in to do a one hour presentation to a company
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: you've never been to hundreds of people, it's on some
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: level a roll of the dice. And then I wonder
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: what responsibility does the person that gets offended have to
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: maybe not get offended or to realize this wasn't targeted
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: at me, this wasn't about me. Nobody else in the
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: room is offended or seems to be offended to the
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: level I am. And I'm just asking, like, because it's
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: as soon as somebody puts up their hand and says
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: I'm offended by the word elbow, We've all got to
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: stop using the world elbow word elbow, then you go,
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: is this reasonable or is because not all being offended
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: is fucking reasonable, as.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: You absolutely not.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: Some are people get up every day heading out looking
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: for another reason to be offended. And I'm like, we
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: can't just keep going, we can't keep adding to the
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: list of what is offensive now. Yeah, I mean, even
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: on this podcast, it's like, well.
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: No, there's a difference.
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: That's the distinction someone being offended versus something being offensive.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: That's a subjective interpretation.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: I think offensive is something that diminishes someone degrades someone
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: something that strips them of their dignity, that's meant to
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: somehow insult, cause harm, control. I think all of that
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: stuff is in Australia. That's called taking the piss, and that's.
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: Not in an out job now.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: No, no, Like mate, I've been around a lot of
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: all these spent a lot of time in Australia. The
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: culture is not that much different than Brooklyn. Like seriously,
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: it's not that much different than Brooklyn. Spent a lot
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: more time in the UK. That is a form of
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: affection and connection. You got to understand the cultural undertones
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: of it. But when someone's hanging shit on you, it's
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: affection and respect.
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: So I feel like.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: There's things that are inherently offensive, and then there's something
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: that's not necessarily offensive but someone got offended, whether that
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: was a choice they made or it's just how it
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: just triggered something they were unaware of. I think those
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: two are very different things. Sometimes people do intentionally misconstruce
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: something because being offended does give them a form of power,
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: Like I'm offended, so now I'm the most important person
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: in the room.
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: You need to deal with me.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: Where I'll say, like, well, squats are a great exercise
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: for strength and muscular development. It's like, oh, okay, well,
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: I have a spondal of the thesis. So you're basically
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: saying that, you know, I'm lazy and I don't exercise properly.
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: I didn't say that. You chose to make that about you,
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: and that does happen. I'm sure those people have shown
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: up in all of our sessions, but I think there's
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: a bit of a distinction there.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: What's a good thing? I'll never say anything that's offensive,
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: so I'm in the clear. So yeah, I'm all good,
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: you two, all of us you too? Who knows Bobby?
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: Where can people connect with you? My friend, well the
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: self hel Bantado. I'm here just about every week, so
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: just you know, you show up, I'll be here laying
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: out virtually. Yeah, we can hang out on LinkedIn, you
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: know how. I love the the conversations and Tiff, do
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: you have a show?
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: Yes, Harps, thank you for asking. You can find me
• 58:07
  Speaker 4: on Roll with the Punches on your favorite podcast.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of good things about that.
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: Can I put tiffany show in the closing? Is that allowed? Here?
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: You can do whatever you want.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: I've been listening to your show more because you know,
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: my commute has actually increased.
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: Amazing.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: Few episodes like I would love toqui a w out
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: some time and talk to you, but really impacting me.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: So thank you very much, Tiffany for such an incredible
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: and deeply complex and human show.
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: Thank you the episode with you recently, is that the
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: one that you listen to that impacts I'm not going to.
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: Listen to that shit, but but thank you.
• 58:49
  Speaker 4: Thank you?
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: All right, Tim, appreciate you both. Will say goodbye, fair
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: but well done Bobby, Well I'm tiff Or may I
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: say well done Robert m hm? Or may I say
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: well done Joseph? Or well done Tiffo tiff Ley.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: Someone's well, we're just not really sure who it is.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: Over and out from Crago. Yeah,