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Starving tot-boy eating cereal scraps of floor · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel
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Speaker 1: one two. Profecial needs five year old Volucia County boy
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Speaker 1: could not walk or talk and weighed less than twenty
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Speaker 1: five pounds. Police say. The boy stepfather denied any wrongdoing
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Speaker 1: and claimed that he was a good father. Police say
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Speaker 1: he added that he came from a rich family and
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Speaker 1: the other two children living there that were his were
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Speaker 1: well taken care of. What his most troubling is that
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Speaker 1: there was another adult in the home and who did
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Speaker 1: nothing for this for this little boy. A Florida couple
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Speaker 1: accused of neglecting a five year old little boy. And
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Speaker 1: you know what, when you say it like that, it's
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Speaker 1: really putting perfume on the pig. Neglecting. That doesn't really
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Speaker 1: say what happened. According to the Department of Children Family Services,
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Speaker 1: when invest sigators arrived at the home, there's a five
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Speaker 1: year old boy lying in the floor. He weighs less
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Speaker 1: than twenty five pounds when my son was five years old.
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Speaker 1: Of course, he's a little horse, But when my son
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Speaker 1: was five years old, he already weighed like pounds. For
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Speaker 1: Pete's sake, he weighs twenty five right now and he's nine.
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Speaker 1: This child, a five year old boy, weighs less than
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Speaker 1: twenty five pounds. He's lying in the floor attempting to
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Speaker 1: eat cereal scraps off a filthy carpet. A five year
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Speaker 1: old boy weighs less than twenty five pounds and he's
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Speaker 1: crawling on the floor trying to get cereal scraps someone
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Speaker 1: else left dropped off of a filthy carpet. The little
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Speaker 1: boy's hands and feet were orange and he had peeling
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Speaker 1: skin and blisters on his hands and feet. When asked,
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Speaker 1: the stepfather said, he's not my responsibility. I'm not his
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Speaker 1: real father. I come from a rich family. Okay, how
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Speaker 1: far under the jail can I put this guy and
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Speaker 1: this child's mother. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories
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Speaker 1: and I want to thank you for being with us today,
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Speaker 1: day one of our launch on Serious x M Triumph
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Speaker 1: one thirty two. Thanks everybody for being with us. I
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Speaker 1: can't tell you how thrilled our team is to join
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Speaker 1: the all star lineup at Serious x M. Oh. Yes,
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Speaker 1: we will continue to fight crime. We are all about
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Speaker 1: breaking news, finding missing people, especially children, and shining a
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Speaker 1: light on crime, heating up cold cases, solving unsolved homicides
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Speaker 1: and arming you with information to help us stop crime.
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Speaker 1: You know why, because I believe we can make a
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Speaker 1: difference in our world. And you know what, I'm gonna
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Speaker 1: start with this little boy on the carpet eating cereal,
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Speaker 1: a serial scrap with me, my producer, the Duke, Alan
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Speaker 1: Duke joining me out of l A. And today's special guest,
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Speaker 1: a veteran defense attorney, Brian Claypool joining us from his
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Speaker 1: posh l A Law Offices, Brian Claypool at Claypool Law
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Speaker 1: Firm dot com. You've been around the block a couple
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Speaker 1: of times. Give me one good reason this father and
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Speaker 1: mother should not go to jail and stay there pounds
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Speaker 1: scraps of sereal. Brian, you're the defense lawyer. Let's hear it. Hey, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: thrilled to be with you on your inaugural serious radio launch.
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Speaker 1: It's an honor to be with you. And of course
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Speaker 1: you know when I'm on with you, we're we're always
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Speaker 1: at odds, and it's it's one thing to don't try
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Speaker 1: to butter me up by saying how honored you are
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Speaker 1: to be here. Let's just jump right into the facts. Okay,
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Speaker 1: go ahead, fair enough. It's one thing to think that
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Speaker 1: somebody is guilty of a crime, in this instance, child neglect,
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Speaker 1: child endangerment, child abuse, but it's vastly different to actually
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Speaker 1: prove those crimes beyond a reasonable doubt in a court
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Speaker 1: of law. What I mean by that is, there's a
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Speaker 1: couple of facts that are missing in this tragic situation.
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Speaker 1: Number one, well, a couple of Is there a past
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Speaker 1: record of of the Department of Children and Family Services
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Speaker 1: being called over to the home? Is there a history
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Speaker 1: of mcglat Claypole. I really appreciate that, and I know
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Speaker 1: that you do your very best and you win a
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Speaker 1: lot of cases, Brian Claypool. But that's just like saying
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Speaker 1: Scott Peterson never murdered any other wife. There's always the
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Speaker 1: first time, and these two didn't in spectacular fashion. You
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Speaker 1: never know down the road you might need help for me,
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Speaker 1: So don't from me toss me under the bus. I
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Speaker 1: think I'm on your speed dial. Is your criminal defense lawyers,
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Speaker 1: don't toss me under the bus so quickly. The second fact, okay,
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Speaker 1: you're not immune from trouble. Please just give me some
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Speaker 1: kind of a defense here. I mean the fact that
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Speaker 1: he's never been caught before doesn't make me feel any better.
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Speaker 1: The second most important fact and and and hear me
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Speaker 1: out on this, There has to be a medical examination
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Speaker 1: of this child done to determine, for example, it was
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Speaker 1: there a pre existing medical condition. You've mentioned yellow, yellow
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Speaker 1: color on the hand. Let's let's find out. Okay, go ahead,
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Speaker 1: I'm listening. Let's find out whether there is some kind
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Speaker 1: of medical condition that might have pre existed. This this
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Speaker 1: big global assumption that everybody's making that these these parents
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Speaker 1: were starving this child. So I think that's important. Well,
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Speaker 1: he weighed less than twenty five pounds from a medical condition, right,
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Speaker 1: and crawling on the floor trying to eat cereal scraps.
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Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I assume you have
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Speaker 1: a table and chairs at your house where your family
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Speaker 1: sits and eats instead of crawling on the carpet eating
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Speaker 1: off filthy carpet. And another thing, now that you've got
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Speaker 1: me started up, Brian Claypole, the other thing is is
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Speaker 1: the child had never had any form of education. No
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Speaker 1: one had even taught him to speak to communicate. It's
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Speaker 1: like an animal that how do you know that? Because
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Speaker 1: that's in the that's in the police report. That's how
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Speaker 1: I know it. The police said, so Nancy, Nancy, come on,
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Speaker 1: you're too smart for they don't fall for this trap.
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Speaker 1: Don't fall for the police report. Okay, let me just
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Speaker 1: give me a second, Brian, give me a second. Let
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Speaker 1: me write all this down. A they never killed anybody before.
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Speaker 1: Be possible pre existing medical conditions. See hey, what's wrong
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Speaker 1: with eating on the floor even though I don't do it?
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Speaker 1: And what was the last one? Don't know? The police
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Speaker 1: are lying? Okay, go ahead, well no, and and and
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Speaker 1: indeed the police aren't camping out at this residence to
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Speaker 1: be able to verify that these these parents are not
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Speaker 1: teaching the child and e there could be some kind
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Speaker 1: of learning disability of this child that we don't even
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Speaker 1: know about that goes goes hand to hand with the
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Speaker 1: need here to do some type of medical and mental
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Speaker 1: health exam or don't worry about that. He's in the
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Speaker 1: hospital right now where they're trying to save him from
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Speaker 1: from mal nourishment. He's in the intensive care unit and
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Speaker 1: he's getting physical and speech therapy. Now what I don't like,
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Speaker 1: Alan Duke, is the judge actually allowed the mother to
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Speaker 1: visit him and the hospital. According to w f TV.
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Speaker 1: Why should she get to visit him in the hospital
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Speaker 1: when she's letting this happen. Well, she is out of
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Speaker 1: jail and she her husband. Don't rub it in she
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Speaker 1: she is out of jail. In fact, she visited the
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Speaker 1: court when her husband was brought into court very recently.
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Speaker 1: They are losing the other two children. Apparently there is
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Speaker 1: a hearing coming up on the other two children. Those
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Speaker 1: are his children, the one that we're in perfectly good health.
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Speaker 1: We do know they have Brian Claypool to address your
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Speaker 1: legitimate point. I do know the little boy has been treated.
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Speaker 1: He is and this is the diagnosis from the doctors,
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Speaker 1: unless you would like to tell me they're lying to
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Speaker 1: this little boy is clinically male nourished. He has not
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Speaker 1: been fed, according to the doctors. The mother, Naomi Hall,
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Speaker 1: was arrested on child neglect and causing great harm, and
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Speaker 1: as Alan pointed out, she's walked free on thirty five
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Speaker 1: thousand dollar bill. Now, Alan, you know what thirty five
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Speaker 1: grand means. That means three thousand, five hundred. You only
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Speaker 1: have to put down ten percent to get Hawker car
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Speaker 1: and get out, or we're have a house worth thirty
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Speaker 1: five thousand dollars that you can put a property bond
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Speaker 1: on right now. The dad, Brian Hall, told cops he
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Speaker 1: would not take a day off from work at Appleby's
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Speaker 1: restaurant where he works to get medical care for the child.
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Speaker 1: He made that statement that he would not take a
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Speaker 1: day off of work to take the boy to the hospital. Quote,
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Speaker 1: He's not my responsibility. I'm not his father. I come
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Speaker 1: from a rich white family. M m hm uh, Brian,
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Speaker 1: here's where you can jump in and defend him. Nancy, Yeah,
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Speaker 1: sure that, Nancy. Look it, being dumb was a felony.
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Speaker 1: This guy would be in jail at being a slammer
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Speaker 1: for twenty years. But unfortunately, in this case, his lack
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Speaker 1: of prudence and lack of common sense is not a crime.
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Speaker 1: And the second part of it is, which which is
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Speaker 1: intriguing in this case, is does in a non natural
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Speaker 1: parent of a child have a legal duty uh to
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Speaker 1: be doing everything that you're talking about that where assuming
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Speaker 1: went wrong here, for example, failing defeed a child, failing
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Speaker 1: to educate a child. My argument would be, and it's
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Speaker 1: an uncomfortable argument because I'm a child advocate too, But
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Speaker 1: let's let's let's let's undress the legal issues here. I
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Speaker 1: don't believe he has the legal duty here to ensure
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Speaker 1: that this this this uh, this child's safety is is
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Speaker 1: is secure. I think that rests with the mom. When
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Speaker 1: you agree because he's a stepfather, now hold on less example,
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Speaker 1: that is an argument. And let me tell you something.
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Speaker 1: When I would go into court every day, I not
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Speaker 1: only had to prepare my case, but I had to
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Speaker 1: anticipate what the defense was going to say and be
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Speaker 1: ready to shoot it down like a laser. Okay, Alan,
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Speaker 1: what are those um, we're preparing them right now there.
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Speaker 1: And it all started under Reagan, as I recall the
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Speaker 1: idea that you could shoot down an incoming missile. That's
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Speaker 1: what you've got to do in court. And what Brian
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Speaker 1: Claypool has just said, it's an argument, not that I
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Speaker 1: believe it. Of course that could be made in court,
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Speaker 1: so the state's got to be ready. His argument, among
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Speaker 1: many of them, is this is not the guys, This
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Speaker 1: is not the little boys natural father, so he had
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Speaker 1: no duty to make sure the child lived. He's a stepfather.
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Speaker 1: Let's look at that. Legally, the father, the stepfather is
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Speaker 1: legally married to the mother. This is her biological child.
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Speaker 1: They are living together and have been in a legal marriage.
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Speaker 1: So in my mind, to my knowledge of the law,
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Speaker 1: he cannot stand by and let the child starve. The
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Speaker 1: child has never been in school, has never had any
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Speaker 1: type of education at all. The child right now is
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Speaker 1: near death. I don't know that the little boy is
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Speaker 1: going to live. I think it's a pretty weak leg
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Speaker 1: to stand on to say I'm just his stepfather and
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Speaker 1: therefore I have no duty. In fact, that is what
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Speaker 1: he said, he's not my kid gets back. It gets
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Speaker 1: back to my point that I said at the onset,
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Speaker 1: which is when you look at something on the surface,
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Speaker 1: sounds bad, bad, smells bad. But that that that's not enough.
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Speaker 1: That's not evidence to convict somebody here. And the lack
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Speaker 1: of evidence here is doing no whether for example, the
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Speaker 1: this this, this this Brian gentleman adopted. Now I don't
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Speaker 1: think he was ever adopted, but I don't know that.
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Speaker 1: But when you take on a duty, you go in
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Speaker 1: as the parent, and you live in the home, and
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Speaker 1: you're married to the mother. I mean, to me, the mother.
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Speaker 1: I can't believe she even got on. But that that's
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Speaker 1: not the end. I want to go to our next story,
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Speaker 1: and I'm going to keep an eye. I'm just praying
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Speaker 1: to God the little boy doesn't die. Allen and another,
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Speaker 1: I'm very disturbed about this. A convicted child molester moves
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Speaker 1: right next door to his child sex attack victim. I'm
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Speaker 1: just I'm stunned. And not only that that's bad enough,
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Speaker 1: but an Oklahoma judge, let's it happen. Now here's what
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Speaker 1: the judge said. The judge says some craziness like now,
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Speaker 1: under the law, current Oklahoma statute prevents sex offenders from
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Speaker 1: living within two thousand feet of a school, a daycare center,
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Speaker 1: or a park. But the law says nothing about the
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Speaker 1: actual victim. Now, see the way I would have interpreted that,
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Speaker 1: Brian Claypool is if the law says you can't live
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Speaker 1: two thousand feet from a school, or a daycare or
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Speaker 1: a park, then you certainly can't live two thousand feet
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Speaker 1: from your victim, the child you molested and went to
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Speaker 1: jail over instead. The Oklahoma judge says, since they didn't
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Speaker 1: mention the victim, I guess you can live there. What well,
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Speaker 1: I think the problem here is the legislature in Oklahoma.
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Speaker 1: Are they sing on the job? Yeah? I have to
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Speaker 1: agree with you on that. What kind of what kind
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Speaker 1: of copwater are they drinking and open? I don't know
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Speaker 1: what's going on. I don't know what's going on with
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Speaker 1: that is not cleared up. And I gotta tell you, Brian,
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Speaker 1: I have dealt with so many child molestation victims, so
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Speaker 1: many rape victims. Let me tell you something. When this
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Speaker 1: happens to you as a child, you never ever get
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Speaker 1: over it the rest of your life. You're left feeling
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Speaker 1: so helpless, so powerlessness, I mean so powerless. Nobody helped you.
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Speaker 1: This happened to you, It happened repeatedly, and they feel
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Speaker 1: humiliation and shame. It can ruin the rest of your life.
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Speaker 1: You can never get beyond what happened to your child. Yes,
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Speaker 1: can I counter that? And can hear me on on
15:57
Speaker 1: this for a second? To be Devil's advocate, because I
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Speaker 1: represent and in fact, I was one of the lead
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Speaker 1: lawyers on the largest child sexual abuse case and against
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Speaker 1: direct country, the Mirror Montee child abuse case that occurred
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Speaker 1: against the we we litigated four years against the Los
16:10
Speaker 1: Angeles Unified School District. And I will tell you that
16:14
Speaker 1: an argument can be made to the contrary to which
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Speaker 1: is in some instances which when children are abused when
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Speaker 1: they confront the abuser. But like, for example, the argument
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Speaker 1: here as well, this this girl that is next door
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Speaker 1: to this this predator now and she's going to be
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Speaker 1: retraumatized when she sees him. That's one argument. But a
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Speaker 1: counter of that is some of these kids not seen it.
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Speaker 1: When they actually confront or seed being the molester, they
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Speaker 1: can actually help them move along in their mental health progress.
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Speaker 1: It can actually uh when you have to look at
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Speaker 1: your molester, it helps you. This is going down in Bristow, Oklahoma,
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Speaker 1: and it is a case that has caused outrage in
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Speaker 1: an Oklahoma community, as it should, and the state leaders
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Speaker 1: should be ashamed of themselves. Now to their defense, this
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Speaker 1: was a little known loophole in the law. And I
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Speaker 1: get nervous whenever I have to say the word loophole
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Speaker 1: because I know something bad's about to happen. The girl says,
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Speaker 1: he's right there, practically in my back yard. It makes
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Speaker 1: me not want to go home ever, she says. The
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Speaker 1: purp Harold English, has just been released from prison, after
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Speaker 1: convict after conviction. This is not a charge. This is
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Speaker 1: a conviction of molesting her when she was a little girl,
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Speaker 1: she said, And according to her parents. She hoped she
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Speaker 1: could move on. No one ever believed he could move
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Speaker 1: in next door, literally just over the fence. Oklahoma has
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Speaker 1: got to change the law, and I'm shocked that an
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Speaker 1: Oklahoma judge went along with this. He did, however, take
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Speaker 1: some steps to help. He issued a thousand the protective
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Speaker 1: order for the family. I mean, I'm just overwhelming about
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Speaker 1: what this girl is going to have to go through.
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Speaker 1: He did do that. Then the judge in effect almost
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Speaker 1: kind of legislate himself pending. I believe there's a session
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Speaker 1: that's going to come up in Uh. It's kind of
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Speaker 1: kind of odd, though, that the Oklahoma legislator is gonna wait,
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Speaker 1: I think another several months before they even tackled this issue.
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Speaker 1: But I think the judge kind of legislated himself. You
18:51
Speaker 1: know what's interesting that you just said, Brian, I'm just
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Speaker 1: wondering what does it take to have an emergency session?
18:59
Speaker 1: How many people does it take to correct the law? Um? Anyway,
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Speaker 1: this is what I know that's happening in Oklahoma right now.
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Speaker 1: Outrage after a child molester literally moves next door to
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Speaker 1: for joining us on crime Stories with us today and
21:26
Speaker 1: our very first serious x M radio program is Mark Class.
21:34
Speaker 1: Mark Class has been in my life from many many
21:37
Speaker 1: years and has been an inspiration to me. At times
21:42
Speaker 1: when I thought I could not go on and continue
21:47
Speaker 1: the fight against crime, I think of Mark Class. Mark
21:52
Speaker 1: Class has been a victim's rights champion since his daughter
21:56
Speaker 1: Polly was taken, taken out of her home and killed.
22:04
Speaker 1: He has been the goal standard for victims across this
22:08
Speaker 1: country for many years. Mark. Before I get to the
22:16
Speaker 1: issue today, which is a little boy missing, I want
22:20
Speaker 1: to ask you how it is that you keep going.
22:25
Speaker 1: You know, people say what's your secret? I don't really
22:28
Speaker 1: know what my secret is, but could you how do
22:32
Speaker 1: you keep going? How do you get beyond losing Polly
22:39
Speaker 1: to continue the fight every single day? I don't know
22:42
Speaker 1: how you do it? Well, you have to Nancy, and
22:47
Speaker 1: first of all, thank you for all the very kind words,
22:50
Speaker 1: but one really has to I surround myself with memories
22:53
Speaker 1: of Polly Um. I have my faith, I have my
22:57
Speaker 1: beautiful whe Violet, my family that encourage me and that
23:01
Speaker 1: support me, and I allow the anger that has driven
23:06
Speaker 1: me for so many decades now to to stay at
23:10
Speaker 1: the top to remind me that horrible things that happened
23:14
Speaker 1: to wonderful people, and that it doesn't have to be
23:18
Speaker 1: that way. That if we all work together, and we
23:21
Speaker 1: worked diligently, and we keep our focus on on on
23:25
Speaker 1: the target, that we can save people from crime, and
23:29
Speaker 1: we can protect people from evil doers. I really appreciate
23:34
Speaker 1: what you're saying right now, that you know after my
23:36
Speaker 1: fiancee was murtyred and the years that followed, when I
23:41
Speaker 1: dropped out of school and decided to go to law
23:44
Speaker 1: school to be a prosecutor, I thought I knew it
23:48
Speaker 1: all about suffering and loss. But now that I have
23:53
Speaker 1: the twins John, David and Lucy, when I think of
23:57
Speaker 1: what you went through, I don't know. I don't know
24:02
Speaker 1: that I could even stand up and take a step.
24:06
Speaker 1: And just your real inspiration to me everyone with me
24:10
Speaker 1: is Mark Class who founded Class Kids Class Kids Foundation,
24:16
Speaker 1: and he also is in charge of created Class Kids
24:21
Speaker 1: Search and Rescue. They're located out of Pensacola, Florida, and
24:26
Speaker 1: they do about one hundred searches a year to help
24:30
Speaker 1: find missing people. Mark Class knows what he's talking about.
24:36
Speaker 1: He's been there and that's why I'm going to him now.
24:41
Speaker 1: And the search for a little boy, Kiren Horman. I
24:45
Speaker 1: will never forget his face, beautiful, little gap to smile,
24:51
Speaker 1: a pair of glasses, kind of a little buzz cut.
24:54
Speaker 1: He was just seven years old, just seven at the
24:59
Speaker 1: time he goes missing in the weirdest circumstances. Kiren has
25:05
Speaker 1: a as I recall a science project. I'm doing this
25:09
Speaker 1: off the top of my head, a science project. There's
25:12
Speaker 1: a science fair that day at school, and his stepmother
25:17
Speaker 1: takes him to school. She says, he goes in the
25:21
Speaker 1: building and he's never seen alive again. He's never seen period,
25:28
Speaker 1: no trace of Kylin Horman. And I have studied and
25:33
Speaker 1: studied and studied this case. But now in the last hours,
25:39
Speaker 1: literally the case is heating up. Help me out, Mark,
25:44
Speaker 1: what's happening. Well, there are several things that are happening.
25:47
Speaker 1: First of all, there is a grand jury that's been
25:50
Speaker 1: impaneled to listen to evidence in the case, and obviously
25:54
Speaker 1: we have no idea what that evidence is, but it's
25:56
Speaker 1: significant that seven years after a little boy dies that
26:00
Speaker 1: they're still involved in those kinds of activities. There have
26:04
Speaker 1: been official, not volunteer, but there have been law enforcement
26:09
Speaker 1: ground searches for Kiran in the past couple of months,
26:12
Speaker 1: including one just this past week, I believe. So there's
26:16
Speaker 1: obviously new information that's been shared with them, whether it's
26:20
Speaker 1: through the grand jury or through other means. Because they're
26:22
Speaker 1: also looking at computers, they're also looking at computer evidence
26:26
Speaker 1: from uh seven years ago. They've taken a computer that
26:30
Speaker 1: belonged to Kayron's um stepmother and are doing some new
26:34
Speaker 1: forensic testing on that. And then they've also come and
26:37
Speaker 1: interviewed Um Kirroans stepmother down in Sacramento where she now lives,
26:42
Speaker 1: about a variety of things. She seems to have had
26:45
Speaker 1: a criminal history. There seems to have been a past
26:48
Speaker 1: murder for higher um case against her. She has threatened
26:52
Speaker 1: to boyfriend recently, she's stolen a firearm recently. This is
26:56
Speaker 1: a woman that obviously has anger management issues. So all
27:00
Speaker 1: of these things are sort of percolating at one time,
27:03
Speaker 1: and hopefully, as as Kyrion's mother, you know, so eloquently
27:07
Speaker 1: put it, she'll be able to get up one morning
27:09
Speaker 1: and have have a resolution to this horrible mystery. Mark.
27:15
Speaker 1: I cannot even imagine getting up, as you said, getting
27:20
Speaker 1: up in the morning with the knowledge that I don't
27:23
Speaker 1: know where my child is, and I haven't known that
27:28
Speaker 1: one day he goes to school or she goes to school,
27:32
Speaker 1: and I never see them again. You know, I know
27:37
Speaker 1: my children are nine years old now. But the other night,
27:40
Speaker 1: the night before last, I took a picture of John
27:43
Speaker 1: David in his sleep. He was so precious and I
27:47
Speaker 1: sneak in on him all the time and just look
27:50
Speaker 1: at them. I just can't even imagine how I'm going
27:54
Speaker 1: to get back to the stepmother. But am I missing
27:58
Speaker 1: a fact at all about the way Tyrne went missing?
28:01
Speaker 1: What happened that day to your memory? Well, in my memory,
28:06
Speaker 1: she left about a two seconds interval where he could
28:10
Speaker 1: have disappeared. She took him to school, as you said,
28:13
Speaker 1: I believe she watched him go up to the front,
28:16
Speaker 1: up to the door of his classroom and then turned around,
28:19
Speaker 1: and I think that there was surveillance tape or or
28:22
Speaker 1: a custodian or somebody that that followed in right after that.
28:26
Speaker 1: That really narrowed that window where he could have possibly disappeared,
28:30
Speaker 1: because she said he went into the school, he went
28:33
Speaker 1: to the door, and then somebody else saw that he
28:37
Speaker 1: wasn't there at all. And the indication is that this
28:40
Speaker 1: was a made up story, that he was never at
28:42
Speaker 1: the school. Anyone ever ever see him at the school,
28:46
Speaker 1: Mark anybody ever else else ever see him. No, nobody
28:51
Speaker 1: ever saw him after that point. I believe, like you said,
28:54
Speaker 1: there was a science fair, and I think he was
28:55
Speaker 1: going in to participate on or to could demonstrate his
28:59
Speaker 1: his project in the science fair. But no, she was
29:02
Speaker 1: the last person that ever saw him. She left about
29:05
Speaker 1: a two second window of opportunity for him to disappear,
29:08
Speaker 1: which is absolutely ludicrous. Nobody disappears in two seconds from
29:13
Speaker 1: public place. I mean clarify that in my own mind.
29:17
Speaker 1: You're saying she left a two second window for him
29:21
Speaker 1: to disappear, and I guess that means she's saying she
29:25
Speaker 1: saw him walk into the door at school, and then
29:30
Speaker 1: I guess he'd have to disappear between the door and
29:33
Speaker 1: his classroom and in Yes, that's exactly right, that's exactly right,
29:40
Speaker 1: And there was nobody else. There was nobody else in
29:44
Speaker 1: the hallway until I believe a custodian came into the
29:48
Speaker 1: hallway and there was no chiron there at all. The
29:53
Speaker 1: Karen Horman is closing down roads in Portland's West Hills area.
30:00
Speaker 1: According to Mark Class and news outlets, the stepmother is
30:05
Speaker 1: being re interviewed and computer searches have been done relating
30:09
Speaker 1: to her. What do we know about the computer searches.
30:12
Speaker 1: I'm just interested. They've never been done before. I can't
30:16
Speaker 1: even believe that myself and I don't know what's new
30:19
Speaker 1: and computer science and enables them to go deeper, perhaps
30:23
Speaker 1: into communications or activity that occurred on the computer. But
30:27
Speaker 1: I have to believe that they did forensic testing at
30:30
Speaker 1: the time back it was a pretty thing they did
30:33
Speaker 1: to sure. Maybe they're looking for something new on her computer. Well,
30:40
Speaker 1: they're saying that it's a computer that used to belong
30:42
Speaker 1: to her. I'm okay, it's a computer that she she
30:47
Speaker 1: hasn't in her possession right now, but it is a
30:50
Speaker 1: computer that she was using at one point. What do
30:55
Speaker 1: we know about her About the stepmother, well, we know
31:01
Speaker 1: that she was at one point in time involved in
31:04
Speaker 1: bodybuilding UM. And if you've seen any pictures of her
31:08
Speaker 1: during that time, the inference I think is very clear
31:11
Speaker 1: that she might have been using steroids, and we know
31:13
Speaker 1: that steroids do create problems. But that's just an opinion
31:17
Speaker 1: of mine. UM. But we know that she is now
31:21
Speaker 1: divorced from Kron's father, father Kane Hormon, and I believe
31:26
Speaker 1: that there was a domestic abuse incident there involving her.
31:30
Speaker 1: She's living in Sacramento. She recently stole her roommates gun
31:35
Speaker 1: and he filed charges against her. Back in December, she
31:39
Speaker 1: threatened to stab a boyfriend who was now an ex boyfriend,
31:42
Speaker 1: and back in there was a murder for higher plot
31:47
Speaker 1: against yet another boyfriend. So this is definitely a lady
31:52
Speaker 1: with some anger management issues. You know, you think you
31:56
Speaker 1: know someone and you let them be around your child,
32:00
Speaker 1: wi old in good faith, not having any idea that
32:04
Speaker 1: you the one that loves your child the most in
32:07
Speaker 1: the world, is actually opening the door for more sinister
32:12
Speaker 1: things to happen. The timeline goes down like this. It
32:16
Speaker 1: was a Friday, June four, skyline elementary. It opens early
32:22
Speaker 1: so students and parents can towards the science fair. Okay,
32:26
Speaker 1: there's a big billboard outside that talks about the expo
32:30
Speaker 1: and a talent show. He was supposed to take part
32:33
Speaker 1: in the expo, science fair and the talent show. Now
32:37
Speaker 1: the stepmother arrives shortly after with her stepson, Kiriren Hormon. Okay, another,
32:46
Speaker 1: this is an important thing. At eight fifteen, the president
32:49
Speaker 1: of the school pta arise and sees Kiren with his
32:54
Speaker 1: stepmother at the exhibit A forty five. She leaves. She
33:02
Speaker 1: says she watches Kirron walk toward his classroom after they
33:09
Speaker 1: drop off the things, their stuff at the science fair.
33:14
Speaker 1: That's it. That's it. Classes begin. At some point. The
33:21
Speaker 1: home room teacher reports him absent. Immediately, you've got Terry Hormon,
33:30
Speaker 1: the stepmother posting photos of Kron at the science fair
33:37
Speaker 1: on her Facebook page. She goes to meet the school bus.
33:43
Speaker 1: Kirin has been absent all day. Kane, the husband, also
33:48
Speaker 1: went with her. The skyline school secretary places a call
33:53
Speaker 1: to about She calls about Karen being missing. Now the
34:00
Speaker 1: stepmother the school secretary, look how many hours they've lost
34:05
Speaker 1: mark class? It's three forty six he went missing with
34:11
Speaker 1: the stepmother at eight forty five a m. Look at
34:16
Speaker 1: how much time they've lost, time lost, an opportunity gained
34:21
Speaker 1: for her to dispose of the body. One could say,
34:24
Speaker 1: you know, rapid broadcast messages from the public school goes
34:28
Speaker 1: out to alert families of the missing student. Kiriren Hormon
34:32
Speaker 1: did not arrive at home today. It was broadcast to
34:35
Speaker 1: phones of parents across the school district. The search begins.
34:41
Speaker 1: To this day, Kiren Hormon has not been found. Tipline
34:45
Speaker 1: five O three two six one two eight four seven
34:50
Speaker 1: repeat five oh three two six one two eight four seven.
34:55
Speaker 1: Question do you mark class? You said Kirn is dead?
34:59
Speaker 1: Why do say that? Because there's been no word of
35:05
Speaker 1: him over the course of the past seven years. Now,
35:09
Speaker 1: I know that one can hold on to the hope
35:11
Speaker 1: of another Elizabeth Smart resolution or another J. C. Du
35:15
Speaker 1: Gard resolution. But those were different types of situations. Um,
35:22
Speaker 1: those were children that were literally taken by strangers. They
35:27
Speaker 1: were taken by strangers, and they were taken for a
35:30
Speaker 1: specific purpose so that they could become sex slaves. In
35:34
Speaker 1: Chiron's situation, we're looking at a very different kind of scenario.
35:37
Speaker 1: We're looking at a stepmother with issues of her own,
35:42
Speaker 1: who has put together a story that makes absolutely no
35:48
Speaker 1: sense on any level whatsoever. And there's been no sight
35:52
Speaker 1: nor sound of hormon of Kiron over the course of
35:56
Speaker 1: the past seven years. So I think the chances of
35:59
Speaker 1: him turning up live somewhere are are almost infinitesimal, simply
36:04
Speaker 1: because her intention was not to maintain this boy as
36:09
Speaker 1: a sex slave, but to take this boy out of
36:11
Speaker 1: her life altogether. Can I ask you about the priors
36:17
Speaker 1: the stepmother had. What does that mean? What does that
36:22
Speaker 1: mean as it relates to Karen's disappearance. Well, it just
36:26
Speaker 1: shows a history of violence, is what it shows. In
36:29
Speaker 1: a history of threatening violence. Uh, there's the murder for
36:34
Speaker 1: higher certainly, there's the intention or the or the threat
36:40
Speaker 1: to stab a boyfriend. There's the theft of a firearm.
36:45
Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about items of destruction, is what
36:49
Speaker 1: we're talking about here. And we're talking about destruction and
36:52
Speaker 1: the potential for destruction. So you know, I'm much much
36:58
Speaker 1: older than this woman. I've never in my life been
37:03
Speaker 1: involved in any of these types of situations, adds, as
37:06
Speaker 1: most people have not. So when you find somebody that
37:11
Speaker 1: that does have a history, that goes back decades, that
37:15
Speaker 1: involves firearms, that involves threats with knives, that raw involves
37:20
Speaker 1: disappearances of little boys. You have to draw your own conclusions.
37:26
Speaker 1: Another issue happened that October following Karen's disappearance. The husband
37:31
Speaker 1: Kane Horman, files an objection to the stepmother visiting with
37:38
Speaker 1: daughter Kiara. He wants a mental health evaluation of Terry
37:43
Speaker 1: Moulton before allowing her to be with their young daughter.
37:48
Speaker 1: They had this daughter together. Do you know what became
37:53
Speaker 1: of that? No, I don't, And I you know, I know.
37:56
Speaker 1: I've met Kane Hormon and he's are quiet man and
38:00
Speaker 1: a uh. He keeps to himself, and he doesn't share
38:05
Speaker 1: a lot of information and and in fact, the last
38:08
Speaker 1: time I talked to Canad wasn't one of the greatest
38:12
Speaker 1: conversations I ever had. But he he indicated he'd prefer
38:16
Speaker 1: to keep his personal affairs personal after what all they've
38:20
Speaker 1: been through. Um m hmm. I just it's just so
38:25
Speaker 1: hard for me to imagine what they've been through. But
38:28
Speaker 1: I know this, the search for Karen Horman is far
38:33
Speaker 1: from over a seven year old little boy. It is
38:39
Speaker 1: far from over Mark Class. I can't thank you enough,
38:44
Speaker 1: not only for today, but for every day that you
38:49
Speaker 1: inspire all of us to continue on mark. Thank you,
38:53
Speaker 1: Thank you, Nancy, You're the best. We now turn to
38:57
Speaker 1: a breaking story for children dead, a fifth in critical
39:04
Speaker 1: condition still in the hospital, and the dad that's five
39:10
Speaker 1: dead and another a nine year old girl's life hanging
39:14
Speaker 1: in the balance. What happened and this isn't the result
39:21
Speaker 1: of a car crash or some catastrophic accident. These four
39:28
Speaker 1: children were stabbed dead. The fifth little girl, as I said,
39:33
Speaker 1: just nine years old, age of my twins, is in
39:37
Speaker 1: the hospital in critical condition. Why would anyone stab five children,
39:46
Speaker 1: five little children, and then appear in court smiling and
39:54
Speaker 1: actually giving a double thumbs up for the cameras. Yeah,
40:01
Speaker 1: that killer Isabel Martinez, the mother of the children. Yes,
40:11
Speaker 1: with me right now, renowned psychologist Karen starts joining us
40:16
Speaker 1: out of New York, and also with me, my friend
40:18
Speaker 1: and colleague Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator and professor at
40:24
Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University. To both of you, thank you for
40:29
Speaker 1: being with us. Joe Scott, let me start with you.
40:34
Speaker 1: You know, when I describe the murders in this case,
40:38
Speaker 1: it's shocking and gut wrenching. But then when I say
40:43
Speaker 1: the punchline, the mother Isabel is the killer. Somehow everybody goes, oh, okay,
40:51
Speaker 1: I I don't get that. Help me out, Joe Scott, Yeah,
40:54
Speaker 1: it doesn't for me, It doesn't. It doesn't lessen it
40:57
Speaker 1: for me. The police are describing that says, an absolute
41:00
Speaker 1: blood bath. That's all that has really been released at
41:03
Speaker 1: this point. The medical examiner hasn't given too much more detail.
41:07
Speaker 1: But I can't tell you this, Nancy. Anytime you have
41:10
Speaker 1: an attack where you have individuals that are uh, that
41:15
Speaker 1: are stabbed, this is a very personal crime. Uh. And
41:19
Speaker 1: you have four of these children that have literally been
41:21
Speaker 1: slaughtered in their little home in Loganville, Georgia, about thirty
41:25
Speaker 1: miles east of Atlanta. And also the father of these children,
41:29
Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, this one little nine year old
41:32
Speaker 1: girl just clings to life at the children's hospital. And
41:36
Speaker 1: five counts of melice murder, five counts of murder, six
41:40
Speaker 1: counts of aggravated assault. And Isabel smiles in court, shaking
41:47
Speaker 1: her head no and wagging her finger at the judge.
41:53
Speaker 1: When the judge such Thorpe informed her of a right
41:56
Speaker 1: to have a lawyer, she says she doesn't want a lawyer,
42:00
Speaker 1: and she will her faith will always be in the
42:06
Speaker 1: people and her faith. Okay, you know what, she better
42:10
Speaker 1: get down on her knees and start praying now. Okay, because,
42:13
Speaker 1: Karen Stark, psychologists, if she has the sense to say
42:17
Speaker 1: no to the judge and wag her finger, give a
42:19
Speaker 1: thumbs up and smile, there is no way she was
42:22
Speaker 1: insane because she is saying she understands what the judge
42:27
Speaker 1: is saying and charging her with. But she's saying no, no,
42:30
Speaker 1: I didn't do that and can speak coherently. Now I
42:34
Speaker 1: know what's gonna happen, Karen. People who study mothers accused
42:39
Speaker 1: of killing their children will claim that she had I
42:43
Speaker 1: don't know, post traumatic stress syndrome, baby blues um, post
42:50
Speaker 1: baby depression, as in the case of Andrea Yates, who
42:54
Speaker 1: has found not guilty by reason of insanity from methodically
42:58
Speaker 1: drowning all five of her children in her suburban Houston home. Okay,
43:02
Speaker 1: remember that, and everybody gave her a free pass. The
43:07
Speaker 1: same thing is going to happen here, and I disagree,
43:09
Speaker 1: Karen Stark. You know, Nancy, it will really depend on
43:13
Speaker 1: whether she does in fact have mental illness or whether
43:17
Speaker 1: This was something that was a conscious decision on her part,
43:20
Speaker 1: as you said, And that's much rarer than somebody who
43:25
Speaker 1: has had some kind of a psychotic break or a
43:28
Speaker 1: postpartum depression um, which is the other alternative. And it's
43:34
Speaker 1: hard to imagine when you think of somebody like Susan
43:37
Speaker 1: Smith her motive. She's a sociopath. She fits in that
43:42
Speaker 1: category where she had a very refresh everybody's recollection. Susan
43:47
Speaker 1: Smith um had. She and her husband were stranged, she
43:52
Speaker 1: got any boyfriend. The boyfriend said he didn't want to
43:56
Speaker 1: marry anybody that already had children, already made family, So
44:00
Speaker 1: bam what happened. There is no doubt at all that
44:06
Speaker 1: she buckled her children. I think it was three little
44:10
Speaker 1: boys into the family vehicle and pushed it into the
44:13
Speaker 1: lake and then tried to blame an unknown African American male.
44:19
Speaker 1: You know, I remember Alan Duke. I was sitting in
44:22
Speaker 1: trial around the time this happened. I looked at my
44:25
Speaker 1: trial partner, said, herman, have you seen the composite and
44:30
Speaker 1: the Susan Smith case. He goes, mm hmmmm, I'm like,
44:33
Speaker 1: it looks a lot like you, herman, Because the guy
44:36
Speaker 1: she blamed of course he didn't exist. Was incredibly like
44:40
Speaker 1: my trial partner. It looked just like myself. Well, herman,
44:43
Speaker 1: if you need me, I can give you an alibi, okay,
44:45
Speaker 1: because she was there with me trying a case. So
44:48
Speaker 1: she blames the black guy and she actually murdered her
44:53
Speaker 1: own children to get a younger boyfriend. Now there is
44:57
Speaker 1: no way in h e double l that she was
45:00
Speaker 1: Millian saying, she's just playing old mean and she's where
45:03
Speaker 1: she needs to be, in jail en route to hell. Okay,
45:08
Speaker 1: Now let's talk about Andrea Yates. Or Andrea Yates, she
45:13
Speaker 1: drowns all five of her children, including a six month
45:16
Speaker 1: old little girl. Her lawyers claimed she had severe postpartum
45:20
Speaker 1: psychosis at the time. The children were covered in bruises
45:27
Speaker 1: where they tried to live. They fought to live, even
45:32
Speaker 1: the baby. I have a hard time given these moms
45:36
Speaker 1: a free pass. Karen Stark, I couldn't understand that, Nancy.
45:41
Speaker 1: But when you think about her case, it's very different
45:44
Speaker 1: than Susan Smith. This is more of an altruistic killing
45:48
Speaker 1: where she believes and she literally does believe. What who
45:52
Speaker 1: whoa whoa? Did you just say an altruistic killing? And
45:57
Speaker 1: and in your psycho talk. What is an altruistic killing?
46:02
Speaker 1: That's a killing? I can't wait to hear this. Well,
46:04
Speaker 1: you believe that your children are better off dead we are.
46:09
Speaker 1: You're in a psychotic Let me ask you one thing.
46:11
Speaker 1: You say. They're so different, you say, Andrea Yates's case
46:15
Speaker 1: is so different from Susan Smith's case. Let me ask
46:19
Speaker 1: you just one question. This is a yes no answer,
46:22
Speaker 1: Karen Stark in both cases, are all the little children dead? Yes? Okay,
46:30
Speaker 1: that's my jumping off point right now, right there, Let
46:34
Speaker 1: me get back to Isabel Martinez, who gives flashes a
46:38
Speaker 1: thumbs up and smiles in court. Joe Scott, Did I
46:43
Speaker 1: get that wrong? Joseph Scott Morrigan, professor at Jacksonville State University.
46:48
Speaker 1: Did I miss something? Is that correct? Yes? Yes, Actually
46:52
Speaker 1: she was folding her hands in prayer, very demonstrative in court,
46:57
Speaker 1: extending her arms out and making the sign of the cross,
47:00
Speaker 1: all of these types of things. She even knelt. At
47:02
Speaker 1: one point in time the bailiff had to come over
47:04
Speaker 1: and direct her to stand up. And then she continues
47:07
Speaker 1: on with a smirk. And you know, as as a
47:11
Speaker 1: death investigator working in New Orleans and Atlanta, over twenty years.
47:15
Speaker 1: We we had an adage that we would apply. We
47:18
Speaker 1: would say, you know, the more insane you behave the
47:21
Speaker 1: crazier and uh, the more robust the killing, the higher
47:28
Speaker 1: the likelihood it is that you're going to get away
47:30
Speaker 1: with it. Because you know, people when they view these folks,
47:35
Speaker 1: they think, well, no one in their right mind could
47:37
Speaker 1: have done this. Uh, you go back to again. I
47:40
Speaker 1: don't want to redirect here, but just for a moment,
47:42
Speaker 1: I'd like to revisit Andrew Yate. You think about her,
47:45
Speaker 1: I call that a purpose to killing because you know
47:49
Speaker 1: you mentioned that the children had bruises all over them. Uh,
47:52
Speaker 1: this is something that took time to do. It was
47:55
Speaker 1: an organized manner in which that was done where she
47:58
Speaker 1: had to drown these children individually. That's a brutal thing.
48:02
Speaker 1: It's not like taking a weapon the mechanism of death
48:05
Speaker 1: as we apply to it, and quickly shooting somebody. Um,
48:09
Speaker 1: we can go to this case in particular, this took
48:12
Speaker 1: purpose with Martinez, she had to facilitate using a knife.
48:18
Speaker 1: I'm assuming, and this is a big assumption, she killed
48:21
Speaker 1: the adult male first and then methodically went through and
48:25
Speaker 1: butchered these four children and severely and severely injured this other.
48:30
Speaker 1: So it's not like this. Let me tell you something else,
48:33
Speaker 1: Joe Scott that may factor into your analysis. Police say
48:38
Speaker 1: the killings. The murders occurred between two am and five am,
48:43
Speaker 1: so she waited until everybody was asleep before she stabbed
48:49
Speaker 1: them all dead. That changes my thinking a great deal. Yeah,
48:56
Speaker 1: mine too, Nancy. When you know, when when I was
48:59
Speaker 1: learning criminal in college in Louisiana, they had a term
49:02
Speaker 1: and I know that you're very familiar with it, and
49:04
Speaker 1: it's called the heating and cooling of blood. Uh, this
49:07
Speaker 1: idea that you have sufficient amount of time for for
49:10
Speaker 1: your you know, to to go from this kind of
49:13
Speaker 1: rage state into a clearer thought pattern where you can
49:17
Speaker 1: think what you're doing. This is an extended period of time.
49:20
Speaker 1: What's going to be essential to this in a forensic
49:22
Speaker 1: standpoint is to find out what kind of postmortem changes
49:25
Speaker 1: took place with these bodies, to find out what stages
49:29
Speaker 1: of of postmortem change. You know, was one child and
49:33
Speaker 1: full riger Mortis was the husband and full riger Mortis
49:36
Speaker 1: because that's gonna mean that they died earlier, and how
49:39
Speaker 1: long did it take? And also this is something else
49:42
Speaker 1: I'd be very curious to know was any one of
49:45
Speaker 1: these people where they tortured. In the meantime, I've worked
49:49
Speaker 1: cases where people have used edged weapons and they have
49:52
Speaker 1: protracted over a protracted period of time, and they've taken
49:55
Speaker 1: an edged weapon and essentially terrorized the individual by making
50:00
Speaker 1: small cuts over the body where these people were strained.
50:04
Speaker 1: That's what we're thinking. That's the information that I want
50:06
Speaker 1: to know that we don't have yet, but I'm sure
50:08
Speaker 1: that that's going to come out eventually. Four children dead,
50:11
Speaker 1: as young as a little one actual age two, a
50:16
Speaker 1: nine year old girl's life hanging in the balance as
50:19
Speaker 1: we wait to hear the outcome in the case against
50:24
Speaker 1: of all people with their mother. I want to thank
50:28
Speaker 1: you for being with us today, of all days, our
50:32
Speaker 1: first program on the awesome Serious x M. Nancy Gray
50:40
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye to him.