Latest / NHA Today Podcast / Whole-Person Mental Health: Beyond Labels and Medication with Kylea Rorabaugh | Ep. 159

Transcript

Whole-Person Mental Health: Beyond Labels and Medication with Kylea Rorabaugh | Ep. 159 · NHA Today Podcast

0:01
All right.
0:02
And we are recording now.
0:04
So I will exit the stage here.
0:11
Thinking that'll part two and exit stage
0:13
left.
0:13
I know.
0:15
Yes.
0:15
So as soon as I exit here,
0:20
you two are good to go.
0:21
So I'll exit in three, two, one.
0:26
Welcome everybody to the NHA podcast and I
0:29
am so excited to be your host and
0:32
I am introducing someone who has been near
0:34
and dear to me now for many,
0:36
many years.
0:37
I have referred many people to her and
0:40
I think she's referred a few to me
0:42
as well.
0:42
We're kind of a mutual admiration society,
0:45
but I'm going to introduce to you Kylia
0:48
Rorabaugh and I've got a little bio here
0:50
to read for her,
0:51
but we're going to hear a lot more
0:52
from her.
0:53
She began her counseling career twenty
0:55
years ago as a licensed professional
0:57
counselor.
0:58
She obtained her Bachelor of Arts from
1:00
Point Loma Nazarene University and her
1:06
Master of Arts in Counseling from the
1:08
University of Missouri, Kansas City.
1:10
Kylia works with clients of all ages and
1:13
she specializes in looking outside that
1:16
traditional therapy box.
1:18
And she works with the whole person.
1:21
And that does include nutrition,
1:22
which we're going to talk about.
1:24
She lives on a small farm in Kansas
1:25
City, Missouri,
1:26
with her husband of twenty six years and
1:28
her youngest son, who is seventeen.
1:31
She looks too young for that, doesn't she?
1:32
If she's not in the office,
1:34
she can be found working the farm,
1:35
spending time with her faith community or
1:38
enjoying time with her family.
1:40
So.
1:41
Welcome, Kylia.
1:43
I was so happy when you agreed to
1:45
come on and share some time with us
1:47
and some of your passion and expertise in
1:53
helping the whole person to become whole.
1:56
So I'd love to ask you,
1:58
can you share a little bit about,
2:00
I know we just read your bio,
2:01
but can you share a little bit about
2:03
your background as far as, you know,
2:05
why did you choose this particular field?
2:09
Yes, I would love to,
2:10
and I'm so excited to be here.
2:12
So thank you for the introduction.
2:14
So it dates back many, many years.
2:18
I actually grew up overseas and went to
2:21
boarding school as a teenager and kind of
2:24
became the dorm counselor,
2:28
not because I was searching for that
2:30
position,
2:31
but everybody seemed to come to me for
2:33
whatever reason.
2:35
And actually, my mom said,
2:36
have you ever thought of going into the
2:38
field of counseling?
2:39
And I thought, no, absolutely not.
2:41
That's not for me.
2:42
And very quickly determined that is
2:45
exactly the field that I was called to.
2:47
So it started many, many years ago.
2:49
And kind of fast forward when I started
2:52
my bachelor's in psychology.
2:55
As a eighteen year old,
2:57
I did not have any idea what that
2:59
was really going to look like.
3:01
But it was very soon apparent that that
3:03
was exactly the calling that I feel God
3:05
had on my life.
3:06
So I entered into that degree program and
3:10
then proceeded on to my graduate work.
3:13
And all of the all of the pieces
3:15
just kind of fell into place.
3:17
And I stepped into the profession directly
3:20
after graduate school as I went through
3:21
licensure and all of that.
3:23
Um,
3:23
lots of opportunities to share that
3:25
calling and that passion before I was even
3:27
licensed.
3:28
And then.
3:29
Uh,
3:30
every door just seemed to open organically
3:33
from there.
3:33
And then I took a big step away
3:35
when my kids were little stepped back in
3:38
and I feel like the passion for it
3:41
was just renewed in a very different way
3:42
as I had learned so much,
3:44
not just about life.
3:46
but also about that whole person approach,
3:48
which I was always drawn to,
3:50
but didn't have all of the knowledge or
3:52
life experience to be able to kind of
3:53
put those pieces together.
3:55
So that's kind of where I am now
3:57
or where that has brought me to now.
3:58
So kind of a little bit of the
4:00
background.
4:02
Yeah.
4:02
Thank you.
4:03
So I would love to hear a little
4:05
bit more about that whole person approach.
4:08
And I know that could probably be a
4:10
three-day conversation because
4:12
Yes.
4:13
But take your time.
4:14
We're not in a hurry.
4:15
I would love to hear that because,
4:17
you know, outside the box,
4:19
I know in my field and we're not
4:20
here to talk about me,
4:21
but I've always been very different in my
4:25
approach to things,
4:26
not the conventional approach.
4:28
And that has kind of bitten me a
4:30
couple of times because people don't like
4:32
it when you're treating or thinking or
4:35
providing plans of care that are outside
4:37
the box.
4:38
So I would love to hear how you
4:41
ended up transitioning to that and maybe
4:44
some, I don't want to say pitfalls,
4:46
but some obstacles that you may have faced
4:49
and how you navigated those.
4:53
So again,
4:54
I'll rewind the clock back to graduate
4:56
school where all and I'm sure you can
4:58
identify with the very same thing or very
5:00
similar.
5:02
The way that counseling was taught was
5:05
very theory based.
5:07
It was very diagnostic based of let's come
5:10
up with every kind of diagnosis possible
5:13
and let's talk about it and figure out
5:14
how we can give people those labels.
5:17
It was very centered on pharmaceuticals.
5:20
where that was integrated into all of the
5:22
plans of how we help people.
5:25
And never once over the course of my
5:28
graduate work,
5:30
did I ever come across anything that was
5:33
whole body approach at all, not nutrition,
5:36
not anything really outside of here's the
5:40
theory that you choose.
5:41
And you work from that theory all the
5:43
time.
5:44
And so,
5:45
Let's make sure that medication is one of
5:46
the things that we learn a lot about.
5:48
Oh, and testing.
5:49
Testing is the other thing, you know,
5:50
testing to see if someone has this or
5:52
has that or if there's some biological
5:55
cause or, you know,
5:56
and on and on and on.
5:57
So I really exited graduate school feeling
6:00
completely incompetent.
6:03
and went into practice immediately as a
6:08
provisional license or with a provisional
6:11
license and felt completely lost at
6:14
basically every person that I saw.
6:16
I felt completely terrified and also inept
6:21
because even my supervisor kind of came
6:23
from the same model.
6:25
And he I loved him,
6:27
but he was no help in that realm
6:29
either.
6:29
And so what it caused me to do
6:31
when I was young and I don't even
6:33
feel like I have the life experience to
6:35
really provide support.
6:36
to the people I was working with and
6:38
I didn't have the knowledge from a
6:40
training perspective.
6:42
And so I felt very, very alone.
6:44
So what that created in me was just
6:47
a kind of a fire and a passion
6:49
to learn and research all I could,
6:51
because I realized if I didn't do that,
6:54
I was just going to be walking in
6:56
to every situation with the people I was
6:58
working with and feeling like I really
7:00
couldn't help them because the tools that
7:02
I had attained at that point were not
7:04
sufficient.
7:05
So what that turned into is I developed,
7:08
I think,
7:09
just this voracious appetite for knowledge
7:12
and research and trying to figure out how
7:14
can I help people because the traditional
7:16
system is not working.
7:18
Now, at the same time,
7:20
I was trying to kind of pull together
7:22
the things that I had learned to see
7:23
if there was any substance there.
7:25
And I actually started off by saying, OK,
7:28
I don't want to throw everything out
7:30
because there's got to be some valuable
7:32
information here.
7:33
And so I did kind of much more
7:37
traditional work in terms of I was
7:39
diagnosing people.
7:40
I was billing insurance companies,
7:42
which requires diagnosing every single
7:44
person in order to get that billing.
7:47
And so I kind of fell into that
7:49
path of what else are you going to
7:50
do?
7:51
This is how the system works.
7:52
And so I guess I'm going to have
7:54
to kind of follow along with it.
7:56
And medication too.
7:58
Well,
7:58
all of the other practitioners are doing
8:00
it.
8:00
It's what we learned in school.
8:02
Even my supervisor recommends them.
8:04
And even though I couldn't prescribe them,
8:06
I very consistently said, you know,
8:09
I think this would probably be a good
8:10
add-on.
8:11
to what we're doing here,
8:13
because this is probably not enough.
8:16
But again,
8:17
I was really struggling with that,
8:19
really battling.
8:20
Wait a second.
8:20
I don't want everybody to have a label.
8:23
And I also don't want there to be
8:25
this undercurrent of medication.
8:28
Oh, it takes the edge off.
8:30
But really what that was producing was it
8:32
took the edge off to the extent that
8:34
people no longer really wanted to work
8:35
through the hard stuff.
8:38
And the adverse reactions and side effects
8:42
and withdrawal process were absolutely
8:44
miserable for people.
8:46
And so, again,
8:47
I kind of went back to the drawing
8:48
board.
8:49
And so there's got to be something else
8:50
to this.
8:51
And I've got to learn what that is.
8:54
And so I started to dive into researching
8:58
the whole dynamic of, okay,
9:00
so what are we missing here?
9:01
And what are we not catching?
9:04
And why is this not working?
9:05
Because I was seeing people come back to
9:07
me over and over and over again,
9:09
and we weren't really making progress.
9:12
So that kind of created this, again,
9:15
this desire to look outside of what I
9:18
had been taught and even outside of what
9:19
I had researched at that point,
9:22
which thinking just kind of thinking back,
9:25
I was flying blind so much of the
9:27
time and it was miserable.
9:28
I was completely burned out because there
9:30
was no support.
9:30
That's one of the obstacles I would say.
9:33
I had absolutely nobody in my corner.
9:35
So I felt like I was in a
9:37
practice with one other person,
9:39
my supervisor, who was no help at all.
9:42
And I would see him walk into the
9:44
office every day with his cup of coffee,
9:46
his donut, fast food for lunch,
9:48
all of that.
9:49
So my growing desire to look at the
9:51
whole person,
9:52
including what we're putting into our
9:54
bodies,
9:55
he didn't get and was not just kind
9:57
of that glazed over look like patting me
9:59
on the back like, oh, that's nice.
10:01
Okay.
10:01
And so I felt like I had no
10:03
support.
10:04
And unfortunately,
10:06
I really have never found another group or
10:12
person who really resonates who's in my
10:14
profession.
10:16
So that has been a huge obstacle.
10:17
I don't have very many people in my
10:19
corner that I can bounce ideas off of
10:21
in the mental health field because I'm
10:25
not only do I not recommend medication,
10:28
I feel like the whole body approach is
10:30
not really, it's not really optional.
10:33
It's not, oh, well,
10:34
this person's interested in these other
10:36
things.
10:36
So I'll talk to them about that.
10:38
Or, well,
10:39
this person thinks nutrition is important.
10:41
So I'll talk to them about that.
10:43
It's,
10:44
Everybody, I think,
10:46
needs to understand how intricately woven
10:49
our bodies and our minds are.
10:51
And so that's not a popular opinion.
10:54
It's certainly not a popular opinion not
10:56
to recommend medication.
10:57
It's not a popular opinion to not use
11:00
insurance or diagnosis-based therapy.
11:04
And sometimes, I mean,
11:06
that's kind of not popular in the whole
11:08
realm of mental health,
11:08
but it's not popular with a lot of
11:10
people
11:11
trying to come and see me too oh
11:13
you don't use insurance well then never
11:14
mind i'm not paying out of pocket for
11:16
that or that's fine i don't mind a
11:18
diagnosis i already have five it's okay
11:21
just use that um so those have been
11:23
some of the the obstacles but also i
11:26
think that the um the whole body approach
11:29
but also what i what you read in
11:31
that bio i'm so outside the box that
11:34
sometimes
11:35
I think it's it's more complicated from
11:40
the perspective of I'm not saying, OK,
11:43
take this medication.
11:44
Here's your diagnosis.
11:45
So let me flip through my diagnostic book
11:48
and tell you what we're going to do.
11:50
Um,
11:51
there's a little bit more trial and error
11:53
sometimes where, you know what there is,
11:56
and this is one of my, um,
11:58
kind of key, uh, sayings or philosophies.
12:01
There's no cookie cutter approach that I
12:03
have to offer.
12:04
It is different every single time that I
12:07
work with people.
12:09
And so I have had people say to
12:11
me before, again,
12:12
this is kind of one of those obstacles
12:14
is,
12:15
But I just feel like you're you're just
12:16
treating me like a guinea pig or I
12:19
don't want to trial and error.
12:20
I don't want to try this and that
12:21
and the other thing.
12:23
And one of the responses that I offer
12:25
is the reason that we do it this
12:27
way is because I'm never going to treat
12:29
you like everybody else.
12:31
And we are not looking at a simple
12:36
person.
12:37
We are looking at someone who's
12:38
complicated.
12:39
And that's a beautiful thing,
12:40
not a negative thing.
12:42
But we're kind of messy.
12:44
We're very complicated.
12:45
And I think that that's what makes us
12:46
so unique.
12:48
So if I were to offer you the
12:50
textbook option or the inside the box kind
12:54
of option,
12:55
I don't think I can help you.
12:57
That, generally speaking, is the salve,
13:01
if you will,
13:03
OK,
13:04
I think I can I can be OK
13:06
with that.
13:06
And sometimes I have had people who say,
13:07
you know what,
13:08
I'll take the medication and the
13:10
traditional way of doing things,
13:12
use my insurance,
13:12
take a label and maybe I'll work through
13:16
stuff.
13:16
But, you know,
13:16
that medication is kind of taking the edge
13:18
off, so I don't necessarily need to.
13:21
So those would be some of the I
13:23
think the main barriers that I have
13:25
encountered.
13:26
And even though I don't believe that
13:29
people
13:30
traditionally need to be in therapy for
13:32
forever.
13:33
That is not the goal.
13:34
That's never my goal.
13:36
I think sometimes that outside the box way
13:38
of looking at things,
13:40
sometimes it does take longer just because
13:43
we're fine tuning a very intricately wired
13:46
person.
13:48
And that's not a simple process.
13:49
But one of the other things that I
13:51
frequently tell people is there's always
13:54
something else we can do.
13:56
So the beauty of looking outside the box
13:59
is it's an endless array of options of
14:01
things that we can put together.
14:03
And sometimes we have all the pieces
14:05
right,
14:05
but they need to be ordered differently.
14:07
Or maybe we just need to remove one
14:09
thing and add something back in.
14:10
But the reality is nothing in this realm
14:14
is unfixable,
14:16
but it may take work and it may
14:18
take intentionality and consistency and
14:21
But we always have options.
14:23
And so that also gives us the opportunity
14:25
to look at maybe we look at nutrition
14:28
and we're focused on that.
14:29
And maybe we hit kind of a block
14:32
or a stumbling block or a speed bump
14:35
and we need to pause there.
14:37
before we progress further,
14:38
but then we can step into another area
14:41
and we can look at something like
14:44
someone's community or we can look at
14:47
someone's physical health and well-being
14:50
or not just even in the realm of
14:52
nutrition.
14:54
Maybe it's movement or maybe it's mind
14:57
reframing and work.
14:58
But I mean,
14:59
there are so many things that I think
15:03
we just miss.
15:04
And that's why we have people in therapy
15:06
for thirty years and they never really get
15:09
any better.
15:11
So that's kind of an overview.
15:15
And yes,
15:15
we could talk for days and days about
15:17
this because it's a huge topic.
15:19
But I think that would be those are
15:21
some of the key things,
15:22
obstacles that I've seen and kind of what
15:25
that outside the box looks like.
15:28
Well,
15:28
I think that was a beautiful overview
15:29
sprinkled with a lot of detail.
15:31
So I'm sure that helped everybody
15:33
listening right now.
15:34
And hopefully, you know,
15:35
they're all going to realize, oh, my gosh,
15:37
I have options.
15:38
I don't just have to go to somebody
15:39
who has this cookie cutter approach,
15:41
who gives me a label and gives me
15:42
the textbook thing.
15:45
So I was jotting down some notes here,
15:46
if people noticed,
15:48
because I wanted to sort of emphasize a
15:51
few of the points that you made and
15:53
clarify a few things.
15:56
So the first thing that I jotted down
15:58
was that feeling incompetent after
16:00
graduation.
16:01
Now, I felt the same way.
16:04
You know,
16:04
when I graduated and got my license as
16:06
a PT,
16:08
I felt completely incompetent.
16:09
You graduate with this entry-level
16:11
knowledge,
16:12
but you don't really know how to fix
16:14
anybody or help anybody.
16:16
And then it's, OK,
16:17
what do you take after that?
16:19
You know,
16:19
because and people might be surprised to
16:20
hear this,
16:21
but we don't even really learn a lot
16:22
about exercise.
16:22
I mean, it's crazy.
16:24
Now, I did graduate over thirty years ago.
16:27
I know things have changed slightly.
16:29
It's now a doctorate,
16:30
but that just means they're better at
16:31
research.
16:31
It doesn't mean they're better at fixing
16:32
people.
16:34
Yes.
16:34
Yes.
16:35
So so we've got all of that.
16:36
Right.
16:37
So so that incompetency after graduation,
16:40
that's crazy.
16:41
And I think everybody feels that way.
16:43
So, yeah.
16:45
Yeah.
16:46
Huge problem.
16:47
Yeah.
16:48
And then when you shared, you know,
16:50
I wrote down cookie cutter approach due to
16:51
the label,
16:52
and then you actually mentioned the cookie
16:53
cutter approach.
16:54
So what I found in my field is
16:57
each person is unique, like a fingerprint,
17:00
as you said.
17:01
We are so unique.
17:01
I kind of joke and say everybody's like
17:03
a snowflake, you know?
17:04
Yes.
17:04
I love that.
17:06
Yeah.
17:07
And there's this thing about
17:09
evidence-based medicine.
17:11
Now,
17:11
I would love to hear your thoughts on
17:13
that because in my field, you know,
17:15
I'm dealing with people with chronic pain
17:18
and I also have three people come into
17:20
the clinic with the same diagnosis,
17:21
the same symptoms,
17:22
but require completely different plans of
17:24
care to resolve.
17:25
Because they're so unique.
17:27
They have a different history,
17:28
different medical history, injuries,
17:30
accidents, traumas, their personality,
17:33
their way of life, their job.
17:36
I mean,
17:36
there's so much unique about each one of
17:38
us that I found evidence-based medicine,
17:42
my professional and personal opinion is it
17:44
will never work for chronic pain.
17:46
So I would love to hear your thoughts
17:48
about that in your field.
17:49
Yes.
17:51
I love that explanation from your
17:52
perspective too, because I feel very,
17:55
very similar about that.
17:56
And kind of the way that I talk
17:58
to people about that very thing is
18:02
research is great.
18:04
And I'm a huge fan of research,
18:08
but sometimes research misses the person.
18:12
And that's kind of one of my very
18:14
common statements when someone says, oh,
18:17
but does that work?
18:18
Or, oh goodness,
18:20
I've never heard about that before.
18:23
And I'll reference it in that way of,
18:27
I think research has a place and being
18:30
able to prove to you that this method
18:33
works or that this treatment protocol that
18:36
I'm suggesting is backed by, you know,
18:41
But I can't do that because that research
18:45
is not talking about you.
18:47
And that is so much more important to
18:50
me.
18:51
And so I use that to an extent.
18:55
But it is not central to how I
18:57
do what I do.
19:00
And that, you know,
19:01
a lot of times people will say, OK,
19:03
so what therapy do you utilize most?
19:07
And it's such it's such a big question,
19:10
because even though I do a lot of
19:13
cognitive behavioral therapy, yes,
19:15
but I never do just that.
19:17
I might have elements of that.
19:20
but that doesn't fit every personality,
19:22
nor does it fit every person.
19:25
And so I kind of tend to stay
19:28
away from, these are my credentials.
19:32
Here's how I do things.
19:34
Here are the types of therapies I use
19:37
because it just would not describe the way
19:40
that I work with people because I am
19:42
drawing from so many different things.
19:44
And quite frequently,
19:46
I am searching for the creative
19:48
alternative to many of the traditional
19:51
pieces of therapy because I just don't
19:53
believe that the traditional or evidence
19:55
based therapy
19:56
Therapy in this instance is really
19:59
applicable so much of the time and it
20:02
misses the essence and the beauty and the
20:04
intricacies of that one person sitting
20:06
across the room from me.
20:08
So I completely wholeheartedly agree with
20:12
you and your approach to that is we
20:14
can't solve.
20:16
people's battles or struggles or
20:19
challenges and in fact one of the things
20:22
too is that i frequently say is you're
20:25
not broken we're not working with a broken
20:29
person there are just some things that we
20:32
need to work through we need to strengthen
20:34
this over here we need to master this
20:36
skill over here but you're not broken
20:38
because if our focus is upon fixing that
20:40
which is broken
20:42
then we're just gonna have a broken
20:43
mindset.
20:43
And we're gonna get absolutely nowhere
20:45
because we're just gonna be searching for
20:47
and racing after the fix to the brokenness
20:51
rather than you have so many strengths.
20:54
And that's one of the things that I
20:55
do with people frequently.
20:56
Let's talk about your strengths because
20:58
your strengths oftentimes are gonna
21:00
overwhelm the things that you struggle
21:03
with a little bit.
21:03
Let's use those to the best of our
21:05
advantage.
21:06
And I think also being able to have
21:10
what is it that we're looking for so
21:12
instead of like in your profession instead
21:13
of focusing on the chronic pain you're
21:15
looking beyond that because if you were
21:17
always looking at pain and pain and pain
21:20
that becomes the mindset of a person and
21:23
so the same thing applies to of if
21:26
if i'm so centered upon the diagnosis and
21:29
the theory and the type of
21:31
of a therapy that I'm offering,
21:33
that's kind of a disease model in a
21:35
different way.
21:36
And we are just trying to pinpoint and
21:38
label you with the disease that you have.
21:40
And essentially it's how broken are you?
21:43
And let's focus on that.
21:44
And that does not do anybody any good
21:48
because it's really discouraging.
21:50
And that's what I think cements people in
21:52
that mentality of I'm never going to get
21:54
beyond this because their mindset is so
21:57
centered around
21:59
that brokenness or the things that are
22:00
wrong in addition to, and this,
22:02
maybe this kind of goes back to one
22:04
of those obstacles too.
22:06
I have many people who have come to
22:08
me,
22:09
after years and years of therapy.
22:11
And they have been told over and over
22:13
and over again that they're not fixable,
22:16
that this is a problem.
22:18
If you have this diagnosis,
22:20
you will always have this diagnosis.
22:22
And you can just bet that you'll always
22:24
be on medication and you'll always be in
22:25
therapy for the rest of your life.
22:27
And so they come with a trauma passed
22:30
from other therapists, which becomes a,
22:33
you know,
22:34
it's a struggle sometimes to kind of
22:35
rewire some of that thinking too, right?
22:38
Because it's been so damaging in the past.
22:40
And that's not the way that I ever
22:43
want to be seen or for my methods
22:46
or the ways that I engage with people
22:48
to look.
22:49
So hopefully that answers the question.
22:53
Yeah, you know,
22:54
it's absolutely fascinating to me.
22:57
I would say jaw dropping the parallels in,
23:00
I think, every facet of health care.
23:03
Yes.
23:03
I see the same thing in my profession
23:06
where people are given a diagnosis based
23:08
on imaging or based on their age.
23:11
Well, what do you expect?
23:13
You're supposed to have joint pain or
23:15
you're supposed.
23:16
And it's it's absolute lies from the pit
23:18
of hell.
23:19
I mean, it's absolutely.
23:20
Oh, absolutely.
23:22
And I love the fact that your goal
23:25
is not to treat people.
23:26
It's to resolve problems.
23:29
their issues.
23:30
And you're right.
23:31
They're not broken.
23:32
When people come to me, I'm like,
23:33
you're not broken.
23:34
There's nothing wrong with you.
23:36
What's happened is you've been given
23:38
information that is inaccurate or missing
23:42
detail that you haven't learned yet.
23:45
And you've just been navigating the world
23:47
the best you could based on what you
23:49
know.
23:49
Well,
23:50
I'm going to teach you some things that
23:51
you didn't know.
23:52
Right.
23:53
That are not necessarily mainstream
23:55
knowledge, but should be.
23:57
Yes.
23:58
Yes.
23:59
And so that's why we're doing this
24:00
podcast,
24:01
because people need to hear what you know,
24:02
Kylia.
24:04
And, you know,
24:04
there's a lot of people listening right
24:06
now who probably struggle with a label
24:08
that they were given.
24:09
And I agree.
24:10
Once you're given a label,
24:11
you do feel like you are at a
24:14
disadvantage to the rest of the world.
24:16
Right.
24:16
Right.
24:17
Exactly.
24:17
Like everybody else.
24:18
You've got this.
24:19
Exactly.
24:19
You've got that.
24:21
And so...
24:23
So now I would love to move into
24:25
the whole nutrition aspect of this
24:28
because, you know, in my field,
24:30
people are really surprised to hear when I
24:32
tell them that, guess what,
24:33
what you put in your mouth can promote
24:35
degenerative disc disease,
24:37
can impact your posture as you age,
24:40
can impair circulation to those joints and
24:43
cause that
24:44
joint damage that the university school of
24:45
medicine um stanford uh learned that's
24:49
it's chronic inflammation it's not wear
24:51
and tear old age gravity so you've learned
24:56
that nutrition really impacts our mental
24:59
and our emotional health and and so i
25:03
would love to hear more about that
25:05
Yes.
25:06
So this is actually something that I
25:08
stepped into early on in my practice.
25:11
I was fascinated by the whole realm of
25:15
nutrition and how that impacts our mental
25:17
health.
25:18
And back then, of course, we didn't have,
25:21
you know,
25:22
you couldn't get on your computer and like
25:23
search and find all the articles like i
25:25
was trying to go to the library and
25:27
find books that had you know some kind
25:29
of content that i could use and and
25:31
going and looking at journal articles and
25:34
and trying to piece together this um paper
25:38
actually i put together a paper i'm like
25:40
okay i have to have some research to
25:42
support what i know to be true
25:45
And it was a it was a very
25:46
lengthy, very difficult process,
25:48
because like I said back then,
25:50
I didn't have all of the tools that
25:51
we have now.
25:53
And there just wasn't that much out there,
25:56
or at least it was very difficult to
25:58
find.
25:59
But I knew without question,
26:01
even at that point early on,
26:02
that that had to be a component that
26:04
we talked about.
26:05
And so I would toss it into the
26:07
context of conversation with people.
26:09
But again,
26:10
kind of going back to what we talked
26:11
about before,
26:12
I felt so completely inadequate in my
26:15
ability to explain how important it was
26:19
and how it worked with mental and
26:21
emotional health.
26:22
And so I was I think I would
26:24
probably say I kind of dabbled in it
26:26
because even though I felt very strongly
26:28
about it,
26:29
i didn't feel like i had enough experience
26:32
i was young i felt like people would
26:35
be you know looking at me saying okay
26:36
so where's the evidence because i don't
26:39
know you're you know you don't have a
26:40
lot of experience in this and so i
26:41
kind of shied away from it so fast
26:45
forward to when i entered back into
26:47
practice after staying home with my kids
26:50
It was kind of one of those things
26:52
that I had experienced.
26:53
I had completely changed my diet and
26:57
lifestyle and had become completely
26:59
plant-based at that time.
27:01
And I knew how it impacted me and
27:04
my family,
27:05
but also I could just see in individuals,
27:09
you know,
27:09
people that I knew or family members,
27:11
I could see the impact of it.
27:12
And so it had become something that I
27:14
had just gone totally all in to learning
27:18
about,
27:18
you
27:19
And in that realm,
27:20
there is a tremendous amount of research
27:23
that supports the fact that what we do
27:26
put in our bodies, like you said,
27:28
with joints and muscles and bones and all
27:30
of that,
27:31
it also impacts our mental and emotional
27:34
health dramatically.
27:37
And so it became something that wasn't the
27:40
occasional.
27:41
Well, I mean,
27:42
if you want to kind of look at
27:43
how you're eating or well, maybe,
27:45
you know,
27:45
add a couple more fruits and vegetables.
27:47
It became something was much more central
27:50
that I know without question.
27:53
Yes, from research,
27:55
but stepping away from research.
27:57
I know because I have so many people,
28:00
you know,
28:01
whether it's eating the standard American
28:02
diet or people who don't ever touch a
28:05
vegetable or a fruit or people who are
28:07
drinking soda and beer all day long or,
28:10
you know,
28:10
filling up on pastries and donuts and ice
28:13
cream and all of those things.
28:15
And those people are the people who say,
28:20
oh, no,
28:20
that doesn't that doesn't impact anything.
28:22
And I'm not interested in changing it.
28:23
And yet they're miserable people.
28:27
physically,
28:27
but also their mental wellness is impacted
28:32
dramatically to the extent that, you know,
28:35
we might make a little bit of progress
28:37
and then we just hit that wall.
28:40
Where if you're not fueling your mind and
28:42
your body with effective fuel,
28:46
you're not going to have a brain that's
28:48
well established to the extent that you're
28:51
going to be able to reform some pathways.
28:53
We're not going to we don't have that
28:55
fertile ground.
28:57
And so we're going to struggle there.
28:59
Now, maybe, OK,
29:00
let's put that aside and let's just,
29:03
you know,
29:03
we'll focus on some other things.
29:04
And yet the the brain fog, you know,
29:07
I know that's a that's an overused word,
29:09
but just kind of that mental muddiness is
29:12
sometimes how I refer to it,
29:13
where there's not clarity.
29:15
There's a lack of focus.
29:17
They don't feel physically well,
29:19
so they can't get out of bed in
29:20
the morning, stick with their routine,
29:21
et cetera.
29:22
And so it just becomes this domino effect,
29:24
right?
29:24
where the things that I'm asking people to
29:27
do,
29:28
they just simply can't do because they're
29:30
not fueling their bodies and they feel
29:32
horrible.
29:33
And so feeling physically horrible is
29:35
going to impact the mental ability to do
29:38
what it takes to restore.
29:41
or to resolve the things that they're
29:44
dealing with.
29:45
And so there's that piece of what are
29:49
you putting in your body and how is
29:51
that impacting your brain's ability to
29:53
rewire, to form a new circuit,
29:56
to practice that reframe or that new
30:00
narrative in the brain.
30:02
It is so impactful,
30:03
the things that people put into their
30:05
bodies.
30:06
Now you mentioned inflammation.
30:08
Well, things like
30:10
I'll pick on dairy for a second because
30:11
that's one that I focus on a lot.
30:14
If you're filling your body with dairy,
30:17
for example,
30:18
there is so much inflammation in the body
30:20
that not only do you feel terrible,
30:22
but it can also oftentimes exacerbate some
30:24
of those more functional disorders like
30:28
um like ibs for example where you have
30:31
an explosion of symptoms because of the
30:33
things that you're doing to exacerbate the
30:35
issue well ibs is very much an emotional
30:38
and mentally based thing that people
30:41
struggle with and so if we're trying to
30:43
do something over here but really this is
30:45
the central problem
30:47
We're not going to make any progress.
30:49
And what that does then, too,
30:50
is it discourages a person to say, see,
30:52
again, I go back to I'm broken.
30:55
Nobody can fix me.
30:56
I guess I'll just go down the traditional
30:58
route or I'll take the medicine, which,
31:00
in fact,
31:00
doesn't alleviate the symptoms either
31:03
because we're not addressing that central
31:04
piece.
31:05
And so there are some specific things
31:07
that, for example,
31:09
I'm working with someone
31:11
with a very functional basis,
31:15
meaning it's not an all in your head
31:17
issue,
31:17
but it is very much impacted by the
31:20
emotional and mental well-being of the
31:22
person.
31:22
And so they have very physical symptoms
31:24
but the mental and emotional key is is
31:28
very central to it and you know kind
31:30
of initially it's oh but i i eat
31:32
well and you know i i i'm pretty
31:34
good at drinking some water but then when
31:36
we get down to it they're drinking a
31:39
fraction of what their body needs to detox
31:42
all of the junk they're putting into their
31:43
bodies and that oh yeah i do pretty
31:45
well is not the definition of fueling your
31:50
body
31:51
Oh,
31:51
I've had many people tell me they eat
31:52
well.
31:53
And then when you find out what they're
31:54
eating,
31:55
it's how can they think that's eating
31:57
well?
31:57
But that's the mainstream mantra.
31:59
Right.
31:59
Exactly.
32:00
Exactly.
32:01
So they've been taught those ideas and
32:03
they don't think that it can possibly
32:05
impact them.
32:06
But the other thing about that is,
32:08
you know,
32:09
changing in that arena is something it may
32:12
be challenging for somebody who isn't used
32:14
to eating that way.
32:16
it's doable for everybody and and one of
32:20
the other things people will say to me
32:21
is oh but i could never do this
32:25
or i like this too much one of
32:28
the other things too that i really focus
32:30
on is we're not looking for perfection but
32:33
also we're looking for incremental but
32:37
successful and consistent change and so
32:40
let's work with
32:42
This piece right here or something also
32:45
that I kind of use as a central
32:47
concept is let's add something rather than
32:50
focusing on eliminating something.
32:52
And oftentimes when somebody steps into
32:54
that place of, OK, I can change that.
32:57
There's success.
32:58
There's a feeling of encouragement,
33:00
victory.
33:01
I did it.
33:02
But then there's also the byproduct of
33:04
they start to feel physically better.
33:07
and if any i mean if all of
33:09
us could agree with this when we feel
33:11
physically unwell
33:13
we don't feel mentally well either.
33:14
We don't feel emotionally well,
33:16
and we certainly don't feel capable of
33:18
taking on a challenge.
33:20
And so I think there are so many
33:22
different facets of whether it's fueling
33:25
the body,
33:26
detoxing the body just by the foods we
33:28
eat.
33:28
I'm not talking about a colon cleanse,
33:30
but detoxing the body by flushing it out
33:34
with good hydration and with high fiber
33:37
and with all of the beautiful nutrients
33:39
that are in fruits and vegetables and
33:40
whole grains, all of that.
33:42
We're doing that layer.
33:44
We feel physically better.
33:46
We attain the sense of I can do
33:48
this.
33:49
And there are so many stair steps that
33:51
I can keep improving.
33:53
I can train toward better wellness.
33:55
And then there's the element of what am
33:59
I giving my brain now?
34:00
to work with,
34:01
if I'm asking for some rewiring,
34:04
that whole concept of neuroplasticity
34:06
where the brain can change those circuits,
34:09
well,
34:09
the brain has to be healthy in order
34:12
to do that.
34:13
And so we have that component.
34:15
And so it's not just one thing.
34:18
It's so many different things that
34:21
contribute to why nutrition in and of
34:25
itself is such a key component to mental
34:28
and emotional wellness.
34:31
So yes, I love that topic.
34:33
I love that.
34:34
Yeah,
34:34
there's a couple of details that I wanted
34:36
to comment on.
34:37
So, you know,
34:38
we already mentioned a lot of people think
34:39
they're eating well,
34:40
and they're really not.
34:41
They're basing it on the mainstream
34:43
understanding of what that is.
34:45
And, and then, you know,
34:47
I get a food diary from everybody I
34:48
do private consulting with,
34:50
because I'm not going to chase my tail.
34:52
If they're, you know,
34:53
living on foods that promote inflammation
34:55
in the body,
34:56
we're never going to get their pain levels
34:57
down.
34:58
So
34:59
And then there's also the piece of the
35:01
water intake because, you know,
35:03
muscles are seventy eight percent water.
35:05
And a lot of people, as they age,
35:06
they're like, I can't grow muscle.
35:07
Well, you're dehydrated.
35:08
You're not drinking water because you
35:10
you're like, oh,
35:10
I keep having to go to the bathroom.
35:11
Well, that's how it works.
35:12
Water in, water out, you know.
35:14
And if you've got some incontinence
35:16
issues, we can deal with that.
35:18
There's plenty of exercises you can do
35:19
fully clothed and upright to fix that
35:21
problem.
35:23
And sometimes drinking more water will
35:25
help the problem.
35:26
There's data that shows that.
35:27
And I'm a data girl, too.
35:28
I'm like you.
35:28
I like the research.
35:30
But people aren't data.
35:32
Right.
35:33
Yes.
35:33
Yes, exactly.
35:35
Right.
35:35
And then there's the, the,
35:37
and I don't know about you,
35:38
but if I'm thirsty and I know I'm
35:40
not going to get water for a while,
35:42
I get irritable.
35:43
Yes.
35:44
Oh my gosh.
35:45
I feel so miserable right now.
35:47
I really need more.
35:47
All you can think about.
35:49
Yeah.
35:49
Yeah.
35:50
So,
35:50
and then I wanted to ask you about
35:52
the meds piece because,
35:54
and we're not talking mental health meds,
35:56
we're talking medicine.
35:58
you know, diagnosis of medical conditions,
36:01
medications.
36:02
Have you seen those impact?
36:05
Because I know I see those impact.
36:06
If somebody's on a statin,
36:08
their leg pain and their joint pain and,
36:11
you know, people don't realize.
36:12
And in my one book,
36:13
I've got a whole chapter on meds that
36:14
cause pain.
36:15
People don't realize this.
36:18
So what have you seen there?
36:20
Yes.
36:20
Well, you mentioned statins,
36:22
and that's a great one.
36:22
I'll start there because in the mental
36:25
health field,
36:26
statins and I know you're I'm sure you're
36:28
well aware of this, too.
36:29
But statins oftentimes create memory loss,
36:33
memory issues where people begin to
36:36
struggle with.
36:37
Gosh,
36:37
I'm just I think something's wrong with me
36:39
because of something like that.
36:41
So they may present with that.
36:44
But also one of the other things that
36:46
I, so, well,
36:47
let me backtrack just a second.
36:49
So statins,
36:49
there are also other medications that can
36:52
create memory lapses or difficulty
36:54
remembering things.
36:55
And so that may be something that is
36:58
then joined with heightened levels of
37:00
stress,
37:01
which can also create memory lapses or
37:03
difficulty focusing or remembering.
37:05
So you combine those two things and
37:07
somebody might show up in my office and
37:09
say, gosh,
37:10
I'm really struggling with
37:11
with my memory.
37:12
And I think that there's, you know,
37:14
there's something like I need some
37:15
exercises or I need something.
37:16
Well, if we really get down to it,
37:18
medication is a huge element of it.
37:20
Now stress.
37:21
Okay.
37:22
That can be something else.
37:23
Well,
37:23
those are both things that we can work
37:24
on,
37:25
but to work with getting off of a
37:28
statin, for example,
37:29
which is not my specialty, but,
37:31
but if I'm asking somebody to explore
37:34
that, well,
37:35
diet and lifestyle are going to be part
37:36
of that conversation.
37:38
Um,
37:39
But also outside the realm of psychiatric
37:43
medication is one all in itself.
37:46
But just medical, like you said,
37:48
medical pharmaceuticals oftentimes are
37:53
going to have those side effects of
37:55
anxiety or depression or distracted focus
38:01
or ADHD-like symptoms,
38:03
those types of things,
38:04
which a lot of practitioners,
38:06
somebody coming in, oh, you have ADHD.
38:09
All right, here you go.
38:09
Here's your medication.
38:10
Here are a couple of exercises and you're
38:12
on your way.
38:13
But what if it's that
38:15
medication that they're on,
38:17
that's producing lack of focus.
38:18
It has nothing to do with the diagnostic
38:20
code,
38:21
but it's very much seated in what they're
38:23
putting into their bodies from a
38:25
pharmaceutical perspective.
38:26
And sometimes it's not even a
38:28
pharmaceutical,
38:28
it's an overly counter medication that
38:31
impacts them as well.
38:33
And that can impact the way they feel
38:34
physically,
38:36
but it can also impact dramatically the
38:38
way that they feel mentally.
38:40
And sometimes, you know,
38:41
whether it's an over the counter or it's
38:43
a prescription,
38:44
um something too that and this is a
38:47
little bit of a uh i'm trying to
38:50
think of the word um and maybe more
38:52
expansive way of looking at this but
38:54
somebody may be taking something for some
38:56
medical issue they have it's not really
38:58
working but they don't know what else to
39:00
do and they become very discouraged they
39:03
may even become extremely depressed as a
39:05
result of that because their issue
39:07
They're taking something for it.
39:08
That thing is not making them feel better.
39:10
It's probably making them feel worse that
39:11
they're feeling really discouraged that
39:12
they're doing the treatment for that thing
39:14
in the first place.
39:15
And they land in my office because they
39:17
are devastated and they're discouraged and
39:19
they're,
39:19
they just are in the midst of despair
39:21
because again, they feel broken.
39:24
The treatment they've been given isn't
39:25
working.
39:26
It's exacerbating their mental health and
39:28
wellbeing.
39:29
And we have this whole conglomeration
39:31
that, um,
39:32
could easily be at least ameliorated and
39:36
the process of healing started
39:39
if we just stopped doing the thing that
39:41
wasn't even helping in the first place.
39:43
So that, I mean, that's kind of,
39:45
it's more indirect,
39:47
but can absolutely impact somebody's
39:50
mindset and their mental wellbeing and
39:54
their ability to look beyond that and see,
39:57
wait a second,
39:57
there's so many things that we can do
39:59
here.
40:00
And here's one relatively easy way that we
40:03
can begin that process.
40:05
Yes, yes.
40:07
And I'd love to look at the brain
40:12
and the brain's need for protein.
40:14
that you may be able to comment on
40:17
and the brain's need for fat that you
40:19
may be able to comment on because I
40:20
have a lot of people who tell me
40:22
about that.
40:22
And all the research I've looked at says
40:24
it craves carbohydrates,
40:27
obviously complex carbohydrates,
40:28
but I would love for you as a
40:29
mental health professional to share that.
40:31
But before we get to that,
40:33
I'd like to just follow up on the
40:34
thing about stress and memory.
40:37
My understanding is when you are very
40:39
stressed,
40:40
you're in the run from the bear mode.
40:42
the sympathetic nervous system mode.
40:44
And that mode will impact the hippocampus,
40:47
which is where the short-term memory is
40:49
stored.
40:50
So that's accurate.
40:51
Yes, that's accurate.
40:52
Absolutely.
40:53
Okay.
40:53
So, so, you know,
40:54
when somebody can't remember where their
40:56
keys are, they can't remember this.
40:57
So they can't remember that it's not
40:58
aging.
40:59
It's they're, they're stressed.
41:01
Exactly.
41:02
Exactly.
41:03
And that's something that people will
41:05
frequently say.
41:07
I cannot tell you how many people have
41:08
come in, not necessarily because of that,
41:11
but that's a byproduct of whatever else
41:13
they're dealing with of I'm really
41:15
starting to get worried.
41:17
i'm only and they'll throw out a number
41:19
and it doesn't matter what number that is
41:20
i'm only this number of years and i
41:23
can't remember this and this and this or
41:25
i'm starting to not be able to remember
41:27
names of acquaintances or where i walk
41:30
into a room and i don't remember why
41:32
and
41:33
One of the things that I mean,
41:35
I would say is central is that whole
41:37
concept of the sympathetic system versus
41:40
the parasympathetic system in our nervous
41:42
system.
41:43
So many people are living in that
41:47
sympathetic nervous system, the fight,
41:49
flight, freeze, bond.
41:50
There's so many of those.
41:52
Position where they are in that they're
41:55
running.
41:55
Yes, exactly.
41:57
And there's no bear.
41:59
And but they think there's a bear.
42:00
And so they live in that state.
42:01
And the number of symptoms that people
42:05
have as a result of remaining in that
42:07
place constantly without reprieve.
42:11
it's the list is gigantic and I'm sure
42:14
you see that in the pain world too,
42:17
but that impacts so much.
42:20
Yeah.
42:21
Their ability to digest because you can't
42:23
digest if you're not in the healing repair
42:25
mode, which is the opposite.
42:27
And I tell people the gas pedal and
42:29
the breaker getting hit at the same time.
42:30
Exactly.
42:31
It doesn't work.
42:32
It does not work.
42:33
And it impacts sleep.
42:34
And I mean,
42:35
it impacts absolutely everything,
42:38
which touching on too,
42:41
If someone is in chronic pain, too,
42:43
oftentimes there can be nervous system
42:45
elements of that as well,
42:46
which obviously you're the expert at.
42:48
But one of the things that brings people
42:50
to my office, too, is chronic pain.
42:53
It is a devastating position to be in.
42:56
And we have to work not just on
42:58
the mental piece of that,
42:59
but we also have to work on which
43:01
is not my specialty.
43:02
That's where you come in.
43:03
of why is there pain in the first
43:05
place?
43:05
And so that becomes a, you know,
43:07
multifaceted approach to things.
43:09
But so much of the time people aren't
43:10
looking from that perspective.
43:12
They're looking at the one issue.
43:14
Yeah.
43:14
So.
43:15
Yeah, that's a huge.
43:17
People are seen as a body part or
43:20
whatever.
43:20
Yes.
43:20
You know,
43:21
kind of like in the mental health world,
43:23
they're seen as just a mind that walks
43:25
in the door.
43:26
Right.
43:26
There's a body attached people.
43:28
Yes.
43:29
Yes.
43:30
You can't you can't cut one off from
43:31
the other.
43:32
It doesn't work that way.
43:33
yes yes absolutely so so i'd love to
43:38
um in our remaining time i would love
43:40
to have you touch on a couple of
43:43
other things that i that i jotted down
43:44
here based on the the you've been so
43:46
wonderful i mean i i think this is
43:48
going to help so many people
43:51
Um, the brain and protein, because,
43:54
you know,
43:54
when you're in the plant-based world,
43:57
you hear about protein all the time.
43:59
And even some of the plant-based docs are
44:01
telling people,
44:01
you got to make sure you get enough
44:02
protein based on,
44:04
and they might be pushing plant protein,
44:06
right?
44:07
Protein.
44:08
And it's interesting because when I did a
44:10
really deep dive into the,
44:12
to the data for aging and protein, um,
44:16
it's not accurate.
44:18
It's not accurate at all.
44:20
And, you know, OK,
44:21
I should have no muscle because I'm not
44:23
living on beef.
44:24
And and so and and even the Cattlemen's
44:28
Association was part of a research study
44:31
that said that you don't need to increase
44:33
your protein in order to increase your
44:34
muscle mass.
44:35
So even though it is interesting.
44:38
Yeah.
44:38
So it's it's.
44:40
Yeah.
44:41
So but I'd love to hear because,
44:42
you know, the brain and protein,
44:44
the brain and fats that.
44:47
Yeah.
44:47
So I would love to hear your perspective
44:49
on that.
44:50
Yes.
44:51
So I think the research is very clear.
44:53
And one thing that I'll tell people,
44:54
because I'll sometimes get something
44:56
tossed back in my court of, well,
44:57
but I read this study over here.
45:00
I always like to say in response to
45:02
that, yes, I'm sure you did.
45:04
I don't dispute that,
45:05
but you can find a research article to
45:07
support literally anything that you want
45:10
to believe.
45:11
So let's look at things a little bit
45:14
on a deeper level.
45:16
And it always comes back to,
45:18
if we're talking research,
45:20
it always comes back to,
45:21
and this is a term that I think
45:23
we use in the field of the preponderance
45:25
of evidence,
45:26
the bulk of research that backs up the
45:30
claim.
45:31
And I think if we take it from
45:33
that perspective,
45:34
we could take that article that says, yes,
45:36
your brain and your mental wellness,
45:38
you have to have protein and fat in
45:41
very, very large quantities.
45:43
And they're either the research is highly
45:47
questionable for a multitude of reasons.
45:49
But if we look on the other side
45:50
of that,
45:51
of what the mind or what the brain
45:53
craves, what the brain needs,
45:56
It is complex carbohydrates,
45:59
much more so than protein and much more
46:01
so than fat.
46:02
But outside of that,
46:05
high levels of especially animal protein
46:08
and high levels of fat are going to
46:10
create inflammation in the body overall.
46:13
So you're not going to feel physically
46:15
well.
46:16
But here's the other piece.
46:18
And again, yes, like you said,
46:20
the plant world or the plant-based world,
46:23
some doctors are promoting lots and lots
46:25
of protein,
46:26
but your body just doesn't need that.
46:30
And so putting something over and over and
46:32
over again into your body that you don't
46:34
need pushes out the things you do need.
46:37
So in essence,
46:38
we have that indirect relationship too.
46:41
Then you're not getting the things that
46:42
are actually going to fuel your
46:44
your mental wellbeing and your body as a
46:46
whole.
46:46
So we have that factor too,
46:48
but something else.
46:49
And I'll step just outside the brain for
46:51
a minute, because here's the other thing,
46:53
especially for loading up on animal foods.
46:55
But even if we're loading up on lots
46:58
of fat and lots of protein,
47:00
maybe both plant and animal, um, we,
47:04
also are impacting what's going on in our
47:07
gut.
47:08
And that's another huge element of mental
47:10
wellbeing because our guts are largely
47:15
responsible for neurotransmitters.
47:18
The things that enable that mental
47:20
wellness, you know,
47:21
something like serotonin,
47:22
it is mainly produced in your gut.
47:25
So the reason that that's important is
47:28
your,
47:29
your microbiome is going to feed off of
47:32
your,
47:33
nutrient dense foods, carbohydrates,
47:36
complex carbohydrates being one of them,
47:39
but the negative bacteria,
47:42
they're going to thrive on animal thing,
47:45
animal foods.
47:46
They're going to thrive on lots of that.
47:47
They're going to thrive on
47:49
junk foods of various sorts and sizes.
47:51
So if we are looking at mental health,
47:55
it's even looking beyond just the overall
47:58
health of the body.
47:59
If we are really specifically focused upon
48:03
our brains producing and metabolizing and
48:06
using our neurotransmitters in the way
48:08
that they're intended to use those things
48:11
and metabolize them,
48:13
Well, then we need a healthy gut.
48:14
And in order to have a healthy gut,
48:15
we have to have a really good microbiome.
48:18
And a microbiome is going to thrive on
48:21
complex carbohydrates and nutrient dense
48:24
foods.
48:24
And that's not animal foods.
48:26
That's certainly not high fats.
48:28
And so that like it expands that
48:31
conversation even more.
48:33
But here's the other thing.
48:34
Sometimes I have people say I'm not
48:37
supposed to have.
48:38
And the list, you know,
48:39
the list of things,
48:40
carbohydrates being a big one.
48:44
And I mean, I just evil nowadays.
48:45
Oh,
48:45
they are evil and protein is in
48:47
everything.
48:49
And so, you know,
48:50
one of the things sometimes I'll say,
48:52
you know,
48:53
I think that probably having that,
48:56
you know,
48:56
whatever it is that whole grain something
49:00
or, you know, a complex carbohydrate,
49:03
whatever that might be.
49:04
I mean,
49:04
those are talked about as comfort foods
49:08
for a reason,
49:11
because our bodies and our minds crave
49:13
them.
49:14
and so when i sometimes give you know
49:16
permission to somebody you know i want you
49:18
to try eating that be okay like let's
49:21
let's try to remove some of those labels
49:22
and that's a bad food you're not supposed
49:24
to have it and it's remarkable just kind
49:27
of the okay this high of relief and
49:31
the oh that sounds so good and i
49:33
don't have to put myself in this rigid
49:35
you know rule-based way of eating etc um
49:39
it's kind of funny how something so simple
49:42
could be one of those things that we
49:44
add to the list of things that we're
49:46
going to change or we're going to use
49:47
to our advantage.
49:49
That's not a traditional way of looking at
49:51
things, but is absolutely impactful.
49:54
So I know I kind of veered away
49:56
from your original question.
49:57
No, no,
49:57
I love it because right now I'm thinking
49:59
of how many people have looked at me
50:02
with such awe and thankfulness when I told
50:06
them it was okay to eat potatoes.
50:08
Yeah.
50:08
Yes.
50:09
Yes.
50:10
And that's one of the key ones.
50:11
I can have potatoes?
50:13
I mean, they're like a kid at Christmas.
50:16
Right.
50:17
Yes.
50:17
Because they've been deemed a bad,
50:19
unhealthy food.
50:20
It's crazy.
50:21
Now, of course,
50:22
if we're covering it in sour cream and
50:23
butter and bacon bits and, you know...
50:25
Right.
50:26
Or fried in oil.
50:27
I mean, there's that.
50:28
Yeah.
50:28
That's not what we're talking about.
50:30
Right.
50:31
But, oh my goodness.
50:32
Yeah.
50:32
Yeah.
50:33
The relief they have.
50:34
So...
50:35
So I think in closing,
50:38
you have been so wonderful and I know
50:40
you've helped so many people and I know
50:42
that people are probably going to want to
50:43
reach out to you and we will have
50:45
contact information in the show notes for
50:48
people who might want more information.
50:51
But would you be able to share just
50:53
two things?
50:55
What is somebody,
50:56
what do they want to look for in
51:00
a mental health professional?
51:01
Should they feel that they need one?
51:04
And then what have you found are like
51:09
the most used,
51:10
most effective strategies that you use,
51:12
even though you might use a little more
51:13
of this with some person and less of
51:15
this because it's based on their
51:17
uniqueness,
51:18
just so people can hear those different
51:20
strategies and look for those too.
51:23
Yes.
51:24
Okay.
51:24
So in terms of how to find a
51:27
good therapist,
51:30
This is it's one of those things where
51:32
I typically will list out a few different
51:34
things.
51:36
But I think a large part of it
51:37
has to do with these are some kind
51:40
of framework type questions to ask.
51:43
um and but they're not all inclusive
51:45
because i think you have to actually have
51:47
that conversation with the person before
51:50
you can really kind of tease out some
51:51
of the details and so some of the
51:53
basic things um would be questions that
51:56
typically probably therapists are not used
51:58
to having asked because it's more like
51:59
okay how much you charge you take take
52:01
insurance how long are you gonna have me
52:02
here you know those types of things um
52:05
but one of the questions that's central to
52:07
me is do you regularly recommend um
52:12
pharmaceutical implementation?
52:14
Or do you typically suggest
52:17
pharmaceuticals for helping with mental
52:20
health?
52:20
And that's not a, that I don't say,
52:23
do you ever,
52:25
suggest,
52:26
because I think that just kind of puts
52:27
it in a black and white place.
52:29
And that's a whole other discussion.
52:31
But that's one of the questions,
52:32
because if they say, oh, absolutely,
52:33
regularly, I would say, OK,
52:35
thank you so much and hang up the
52:36
phone.
52:39
As far as therapeutic style,
52:41
that's something that I would ask the
52:43
question, what is that?
52:45
What typically do you use as your
52:47
therapeutic style?
52:48
Now, again, that kind of goes to,
52:50
like you said,
52:51
I pull from so many different areas.
52:53
But if somebody says I only use and
52:57
they fill in a blank,
52:59
I would be very,
53:00
very hesitant to probably choose that
53:03
person because, again,
53:05
I don't think we can look at it
53:06
with that kind of a cookie cutter way
53:08
of looking at things.
53:09
So you might hear somebody say, well,
53:12
I generally will use this model.
53:15
Cognitive behavioral therapy is wonderful.
53:17
I love it.
53:18
But it is not all inclusive all the
53:20
time.
53:21
So that is one that I would typically
53:23
say I would probably look for somebody who
53:25
at least implements that to an extent
53:27
because it's very present focused.
53:29
It's very tools based.
53:31
So there can be a lot of goodness
53:32
there.
53:33
But I would look for somebody who says,
53:34
you know, I feel that everybody is unique.
53:37
And so I do use a number of
53:38
different things,
53:39
kind of like what I was presenting.
53:40
I think that's so important.
53:43
One of the other things would be how
53:45
long.
53:46
And I would not be looking for a
53:48
number because, again,
53:49
that puts you in a box and it's
53:50
just not applicable.
53:52
What I typically answer to that question
53:54
is, here's what I know.
53:57
I don't want to see you for the
53:59
rest of your life.
54:00
I'm sure we're going to get along really
54:01
well,
54:02
but I don't want to see you for
54:03
the rest of your life.
54:03
And I'm confident you don't want me to
54:05
be part of yours for the rest of
54:07
your life.
54:08
And so my goal is to equip you
54:12
and encourage you and work with you and
54:15
help build those strengths in you so that
54:18
you can take what we work on and
54:20
you can go forward and encounter lots of
54:22
different challenges in your life without
54:24
me present and so that's the kind of
54:26
question that you know you don't want
54:28
somebody who says six sessions you'll be
54:30
good because that's just not true they
54:32
just cannot predict that i also would look
54:34
for somebody who doesn't say oh i mean
54:36
I mean, you're probably looking at,
54:37
you know,
54:37
ten years or you're probably going to be
54:39
in therapy for the rest of your life.
54:40
You are going to like some people will
54:42
answer that.
54:43
One of the other things that I would
54:44
ask is,
54:45
do you take an active role in the
54:48
therapeutic process?
54:49
That might sound like kind of a crazy
54:50
question, but there are therapists.
54:52
My supervisor back when I was fresh out
54:55
of graduate school was one of these
54:57
people.
54:59
He'd sit very kind man.
55:01
He would sit and he would listen.
55:04
And he wouldn't really offer a lot of
55:06
insight and he wouldn't offer a lot of
55:08
tools and he wouldn't offer a lot of
55:10
direction.
55:11
Drove me crazy because I want my person
55:16
to walk out with something they can use.
55:18
And so looking for someone who's going to
55:20
offer homework in between sessions,
55:23
that's and I will say to someone,
55:25
I am an active directive therapist.
55:28
I am going to be equipping you because
55:30
we can get a lot done in an
55:31
hour session, but oh my goodness,
55:33
we can get so much more done if
55:34
you are working consistently between those
55:35
sessions.
55:36
So I want to equip you.
55:38
to use those things and to practice those
55:40
things so that you come back and we
55:42
can talk about those and add to the
55:44
toolbox.
55:45
Those are some of the kind of central
55:47
things that I ask or would suggest people
55:50
ask.
55:51
Like I said,
55:51
there's so much more to it,
55:53
but those are some really good framework
55:54
questions that if you get a lot of
55:56
those that seem like they resonate, okay,
55:59
this might be worth a conversation or a
56:00
more, you know, a session.
56:03
In terms of things that I use a
56:06
lot of.
56:07
Yeah, that's a really huge question.
56:09
But I do use a lot of cognitive
56:12
behavioral therapy because, again,
56:14
it's very present focused,
56:15
not super focused on the past and not
56:19
trying to predict the future and what
56:20
that's all going to look like.
56:21
It's very much.
56:23
What can we do to equip you?
56:25
But also,
56:26
how are we going to shift that mindset
56:27
so that you are ready and able to
56:30
work on the things that we're presenting?
56:33
Something else that I do a lot of
56:35
work with is nervous system work.
56:36
You touched on that.
56:38
But working with the nervous system is so
56:41
central to mental health and well-being.
56:43
And that can mean lots of different
56:45
things.
56:46
But much of the time,
56:47
that's a very actionable,
56:49
practical way of
56:52
allowing the mind and the body to work
56:54
together to create and to foster the
56:57
ability to work on some of those deeper
56:59
issues.
57:00
So that's also something that I regularly
57:03
integrate with a lot of the people I
57:05
work with is just nervous system central
57:07
work.
57:09
The other element is looking at,
57:12
I kind of use frequently something that
57:15
I'll call the emotional prescription,
57:18
right?
57:19
And that's where I take lots of different
57:22
bits and pieces and create this plan of
57:26
this is what we're going to start doing
57:27
consistently to train your way out of the
57:31
place that you're in that you don't want
57:32
to be in anymore.
57:33
And that's I mean,
57:34
that that can include a whole plethora of
57:36
things.
57:36
But it is a technique that I frequently
57:38
use where I can integrate a lot of
57:41
different kinds of techniques and,
57:43
you know,
57:44
therapeutic strategies and,
57:46
and things like that,
57:46
but it's very actionable, very,
57:49
here's your prescription and this is what
57:51
you're going to work on,
57:52
but it allows for that creative
57:53
integration.
57:55
So with, without being like,
57:57
without kind of coming up with a really
57:59
extensive answer,
58:00
those would be some key things.
58:02
It's a snippet,
58:03
but it gives you an idea.
58:04
No, no.
58:05
I think that was very, very helpful.
58:06
Yes.
58:07
All encompassing, but yeah.
58:09
I mean,
58:10
we got to give people something to do.
58:12
Yes.
58:12
You know, I mean, same in my world,
58:15
if they're just going to do something when
58:16
they see me, but nothing in between,
58:18
we're not getting anywhere.
58:19
So, so I love it.
58:21
I love it.
58:21
So, well, thank you so much for,
58:24
for coming on and for sharing your passion
58:27
and your expertise and so many helpful
58:31
facts and truths.
58:34
And if we could close with you giving
58:37
us,
58:38
One piece of advice.
58:40
What piece of advice would you give people
58:42
if they feel like they're struggling?
58:47
I think what I would encourage people with
58:51
is there's nothing that isn't something
58:57
that we can work with.
58:59
And even though you're struggling with
59:02
something,
59:03
not only is there something we can do
59:04
about it,
59:05
there's lots of some things we can do
59:06
about it,
59:07
but also the recognition of that is the
59:11
very basis of where we need to start.
59:13
You don't have to feel ready.
59:15
You don't have to feel real encouraged
59:17
about the process,
59:18
but there is always something that we can
59:21
do with the position that you're in
59:24
And you don't have to struggle with it
59:26
for the rest of your life because there
59:29
are solutions, creative as they may be.
59:32
And the traditional way that perhaps you
59:37
have experienced this particular arena or
59:40
this challenge before does not have to be
59:43
what you experience moving forward.
59:44
And so whether it's picking up the phone
59:47
or writing an email,
59:49
that's the thing that I think people need
59:51
to hear is it's not unfair.
59:53
fixable.
59:54
It's not that you're broken.
59:56
We just have to rework some things and
59:58
there's always hope.
1:00:00
So that's probably what I would say.
1:00:02
Yeah.
1:00:02
I love it.
1:00:03
I love it.
1:00:04
And that's not what people tend to hear
1:00:05
in that arena.
1:00:06
So thank you.
1:00:08
Thank you for that hope.
1:00:09
Thank you for being here.
1:00:11
And I just hope everybody has a great
1:00:14
day who heard this and we'll seek you
1:00:17
out should they feel the need.
1:00:19
Thank you, Kylia.
1:00:19
Thank you.
1:00:29
Now I think Emily is supposed to come
1:00:31
on.
1:00:31
I think so.
1:00:33
I don't see her face yet.
1:00:35
Yeah.