Latest / I Choose Me with Jennie Garth / I Choose…Loving Better with Jillian Turecki

Transcript

I Choose…Loving Better with Jillian Turecki · I Choose Me with Jennie Garth

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garland. Hi, everyone,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: the choices we make and where they lead us. Guys. Today,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: my guest is someone I think we're all going to
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: learn a lot from. Her social media is incredibly insightful
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: and I'm so excited I get to connect with her
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: today and pick her brain. She's a certified relationship coach,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: a teacher, and the host of the Jillian on Love podcast.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Her book It Begins with You, The Nine Hard Truths
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: about Love that will Change Your Life is out now.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Please welcome Jillian Taureki to the podcast. Hello, I'm so
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: excited to meet you and speak to you. Thank you
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: for coming on today.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, thank you for having me.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, I have a question right out of the gate.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: How come a certified relationship coach?
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: Man, Well, I mean I literally did it out of
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: just this was like what I was meant to do.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: I taught yoga for many years, like almost twenty years,
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: so I was helping people with their relationship with themselves
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: for many years. And I also worked with went to
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: people's homes and worked with families and couples. So I
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: was always in the world of like mind body wellness,
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: but personal development was not. Because we're talking this is
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: like twenty years ago. And then when I started to
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: transition into relationship coaching, we're talking twenty fourteen. This is
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: like before it was like a thing on Instagram. This
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: is before there was therapy, of course, but this is
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: well before it all became very popular. But I went
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: through a very difficult time. I had a very short
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: marriage that ended terribly and was very sad, and it
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: all happened at the same time that I was having
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: that I had a miscarriage and my mom was dying
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: of cancer. So everything happened at once. And when that happened,
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: I became obsessed with the question what makes a relationship work?
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Like why am I in this position?
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: Because being in the position of getting a divorce at
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: the age that I was at was in complete contradiction
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: to how I identified.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: I thought, I was like this evolved person, why is
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: this happening?
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: And I, you know, I'm a child of a psychiatrist
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: and i'd.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Been in therapy.
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm a Jewish New Yorker, so like therapy
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: is like very normal.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: For us.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: So in other words, like a lot of people are
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: in therapy now, but therapy was sort of a thing
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: of the seventies and eighties and nineties with New Yorkers
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: long before that. So when my ex now ex husband
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: and I went to couples, therapy was really bad. And
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: I'm not putting it down as a whole, but we
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: went to a couple and it was not helpful at all,
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: and I thought there has to be another way. And
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: I discovered that there is another way, and so my
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: original intention was to become certified to work with couples
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: to help them in a way that we were not
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: being helped. And then working with couples is not for
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: the faint of heart. It's very difficult. And then I
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: really wanted to work with people through heartbreak because I
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: felt like I pulled myself took it was a long
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: time out of such a deep hole and had to
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: confront so many demons within myself that I really wanted
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: to help people with heartbreak. And then I was like, Wow,
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: all these singles are flocking to me like how to
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: start dating. So my practice expanded out of just couples.
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: But that is sort of a sort of condensed story
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: of the origin, story of how one becomes a relationship coach.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: It sounds like you learned so much through your trials
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: and it's a way of sort of almost paying it
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: forward to other people that are going through similar things,
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: like what you learned sharing those messages. That's so powerful.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: I think that's how we all learn.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: I'm really just sort of a teacher at heart, and
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: so if I learned something and really integrate into my life,
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: I immediately want to teach it in some way, right,
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: share it.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to share it.
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: I want to help in any way that I can
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: once I fully understand it, and so yeah, that's been
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: sort of my journey.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: I think that we're similar in that way. My mom
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: probably always wanted to be a therapist. We had so
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: many self help books and it was just, you know,
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: part of our family dynamic. It sounds very similar. I
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: love how manerable you are. And you were talking before
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: about in twenty fourteen when your life was falling apart
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: and you learned that awful news about your mom and
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: you had that miscarriage, and if I'm not mistaken, it
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: was the same day, Yeah, you're now ex husband came
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: to you and said that he didn't want to be
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: married any longer.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And he didn't actually come to me, he sent
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: in a text.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: He just said, Yeah, I'm not a fan of this
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: guy already.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: I know. I know it's not it's not an easy
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: story to tell, and I don't I would imagine it's
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: not an easy story for him to think about.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: But no, it was.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: It was a pretty It was like everything that like
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: you should not do when you break up with someone,
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: right happened, you know.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: About let read the room, Bud, Yeah, well about timing? Okay,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: well eleven years later, now, yeah, how did you get
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: through that? And what would you say to that past
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: version of Jillian?
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah? How did I get through that? With a lot
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: of help. I leaned on my sisters.
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: It was heartbreaking because typically my mom would be the
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: person who I would lean and lean into and lean
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: on the most, but she was limited and being able
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: to support me fully and I didn't want to and
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to burden her. I leaned on friends.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: In the beginning, I was in therapy twice a week.
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: That's when I actually started working with a coach and
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: I was introduced to Tony Robbins and actually his work
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: was really the catalyst for me. That's kind of changed everything.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: But and I and I continue to teach yoga because
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: it's really important to do things that get you out
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: of your head and so you know, showing and to
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: maintain as much as you possibly can and some routine,
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: some normalcy.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: But it was sad and it was a dark time.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: And also.
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: What I also did was because I became so obsessed
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: with what makes a relationship work, and I was obsessed
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: with trying to get myself to feel better and to survive.
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: I worked on myself. I just dove right into all
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: of that. So what would I tell that version of me?
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: And I sort of alluded to this in my book,
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: which is, you feel like you're dying right now, but
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: actually you're being reborn. And that sounds kind of corny,
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: but it really is very true.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: It is true.
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's you feel like you're dying right now,
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: but I promise you that your life is taking a
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: different direction and it's okay, and it's actually the direction
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: that you need to beyond.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: And I would just reassure her.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: You knew in the thick of it that even though
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: this hurts like hell, this is the best thing for me.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: I knew that I was inspired by what it was
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: that I was learning, and it was giving my life
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: some sort of meaning. So the meaning didn't take away
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: the pain, but it did help me get up in
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: the morning. And then obviously it gets easier right as
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: time goes on, it actually gets easier. But yeah, I
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: gave my life, it gave me some purpose, and I
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: think that's really that's a big motivator for people.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, a reason to get up in the morning, something
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: to be curious about, want to spend some energy investigating.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've definitely been there. I mean, I know
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: pretty much all of us have been what we call
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: at our lowest our darkest times. And you're right, it's
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: important to have something to look forward to or believe in,
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: or something that something Oh my god, it's the only thing.
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: It's I mean, and I've worked with a lot of
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: people who were in a sort of a deep emotional hole,
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: and so much of it is if I can get
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: this person something to find, something to look forward to
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: or even every morning, something to listen to that inspires them,
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: that is what everyone needs.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so stubborn. I'm like, yeah, yeah, sure, that's
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: for everybody else, not for me right now. I know,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: I'm just miserable and I'm in this dark place and
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: I just want to be left alone. So I had
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: to go through that period and kind of honor that
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: and let that be for a while until I was ready.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Like you, you can lead a horse to water, but
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: you can't make them drink. So people have to be
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: ready to receive just a little opening, even just alone insight.
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, you know, even though I can look back
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: at that time and understand its purpose, it's not like
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: I don't romanticize it in any way, and I don't
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: try to romanticize it for anyone. Like, there were some
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: really dark times and and I definitely had moments where
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: I was just closed off to just anything making me
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: feel better.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: For sure.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that there's so much talk about how
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: to come out of those situations, and and there's so
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: many lessons and tips and tricks people offer, yeah, for
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: us to feel better, But sometimes we just have to
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: let ourselves feel bad.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, we have to let ourselves feel bad.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: And I mean, this is it's an interesting it's an
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: interesting conversation that has a lot of nuance, it's it's
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: and when where do we draw the line when someone
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: is still just in it and not moving forward and
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: still stuck in that sort of traumatic state, Where do
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: we kind of draw that line? Right, Because there's always
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: a lesson and it's not something that you want to
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: tell the person when they're in the acute stage of
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: that grief, like that's not the time to talk about
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: the lesson. But there is also a lesson and in time,
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: hopefully that person will well feel that.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: And see that you mentioned in your book that is
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: out now, everybody you should run to the computer and
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: buy it or to the bookstore and still even have bookstores.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: I don't even know. But you say that we cannot
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: heal our love lives without healing the relationship we have
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: with ourselves. Every relationship we have had has had one
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: thing in common us. So explain to our listeners. If
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: we don't accept this commonality, what will continue to happen
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: in our relationships?
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: Will continue to repeat patterns, And that's just the bottom line. Look,
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: the fact that every relationship we ever had has had
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: one thing in common, and that's us.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: Does not mean that we are the problem.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: Because I know that's like a very that's a very
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: you know zeigeist deed like phrase right now, or that
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: you know it's we're to blame. It's that you can't
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: change if you have to be the change that you
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: want to see in your love life. And you have
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: certain beliefs and certain conditioning, and you have your own
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: unique childhood, and you have your unique way in which
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: you see the world, and you are a human being,
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: and so by definition, you have thoughts that are very
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: messy and very empowering.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: And we are not taught this in school.
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: And if you're lucky, you had great parents who taught
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: you a lot of things. But guess what, And this
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: is where it's a huge mystery. I've known people who
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: have a who've had great childhoods, and they don't necessarily
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: make the best choices in relationships and partners. Now, a
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: great childhood helps, but nothing is a guarantee. And so
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: if we're not able, you know, this is like we're
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: why is this happening to me? Why is this happening?
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: What's going on? And it's just okay, you've reached the
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: point where there needs to be some necessary self examination,
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: and maybe that's how you feel about yourself your self esteem.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's you're haunted by a past relationship. Maybe you're
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: haunted by something something in your past. And chances are
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: you just are not that skilled with in certain areas
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: of relating because we're not taught this right and not
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: the tools.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: You just don't have the tools. It's it.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I had a great childhood, pretty great
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: yeah as childhoods go, and I had great parents that
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: tried to teach me I could do anything. But the
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: one thing that I always struggled with in my life
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: was being in a relationship like the just the day
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: to day and how to get in and out of
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: conflict with a partner, how to not lose myself, how
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: to I didn't know anything. And all these conversations that
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: we're having now, I'm so so happy that they're they're
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: going on because I have three daughters that I'm raising
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: and I want them to have more than I had
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: in this area for sure.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: Did you what did you learn about yourself in terms
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: of what works for you in relationship and what doesn't
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: work well.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: I certainly learned that I need to be able to
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: express my feelings or to have a voice in a relationship.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: A long time, and one that I did not feel
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: seen or heard and that was just slowly killing me. Yeah,
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: and just setting a terrible example for my kids.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: And the thing is, like you don't sometimes you don't
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: see until you've been through it, like where you can
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: grow and learn, you know. Yeah, you have to sometimes
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: just feel it, get through it, go through it, and
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: come out on the other side with your jewels of wisdom.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Can we talk a moment about attachment styles in a relationship?
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: So explain to my listeners what the different attachment styles
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: because everybody's talking about attachment styles.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: I know. Now I'm not a fan of how popular
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: they've become, but yes, I'll talk about it.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Why aren't you a fan?
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: First of all, Well, I am a fan of it
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: as a tool to help you understand yourself and relationships.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: But I am not of the school of thought that
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: everything boils down to your attachment style.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Right, and because you label it, it's going to make
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: everything better.
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: Or and also people's self. You know, I have anxious attachment. Now,
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: you like you can't have it, you know, like it's
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: not a cold you you know you you know you
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: can't like have anxious attachment. You maybe struggle with some
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: anxious attachment issues because of childhood, but that can change
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: depending on who you're in a relationship with. That can
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: change depending there's so much context. So so if you're
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: anxiously attached typically and the way that it's explained doesn't
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: totally resonate with me, Typically, if you are anxiously attached,
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: you had a parent who was maybe not as reliably there.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: For you and your needs.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: Okay, for me, I would have leaned anxiously attached because
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: my father had a very very complicated relationship with my father,
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: So that made me more attached to my mom, So
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: I would have a lot of separation anxiety from my mom.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: People who are avoidant, typically what happens is when they're
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: growing up, there might be a lot of ameshment.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: So there their.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: Parent, maybe they had a parent who parentified them, maybe
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: they were raised maybe it was a boy raised by
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: a single mother, and the single mother instead of actually
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: being in romantic relationships, you just always she made her
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: son her husband in that weird way, because this happens,
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: This really does happen, and then that little boy grows
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: up to not want anyone to need them because they've
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: had that mother who's always needed them.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: And that never felt good.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: And that never feels good. No, and then oh, in
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: some avoidance. You know, some people are just wired for
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: more independence. You know, that was the ethos of the
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: family system. It was like, you don't need anyone, you
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: need yourself. And then other people are more wired for togetherness.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: It's like, you don't know, it's not you need other people.
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: And so that might show up as a conflict in
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: a relationship because that person is wanting more togetherness and
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: the other person's wanting more autonomy.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: So it's not to set their record straight.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: I think attachment theory is brilliant in its own right,
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: but there's nuance, and the nuance is not described enough.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: And there's also nuance in the sense that you know,
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: historically more men are avoidant and more women will be
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: anxiously attached. So why does that happen well, because in general,
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: and see I want to say it's in general, women
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: have historically tended to they have valued connection and love
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: and higher than men, and men have valued achievement higher
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: than that. And so in a relationship, if you're speaking
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: heteronormatively between a man and a woman, you'll have the
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: woman wanting to actually have more connection and the man
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: wanting to have more of his freedom to pursue his purpose.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: Things are changing now as gender roles are changing, but
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: still there's the you know, women, we are biologically wired
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: for more connection and love than the men, and that's
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: just that's the role of estrogen in our bodies versus cystosterone.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: So I think that gender plays a role in all
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: of it as well. There's also context. You could be
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: someone could actually be have a high degree of anxiety
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: and a relationship and separation anxiety because of they were
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: mistreated or abandoned or betrayed in a relationship, or maybe
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: they're going through something in their life where work is
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: not going well at all.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: And they're really.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: Struggling in work, and so when they get into a
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: relationship and they put all their emotional stock in that
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: relationship instead of nurturing other aspects of their life, so
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: they may present as sort of chasing love from the avoidant.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: But either way, in a relationship, there's always this dance
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: of intimacy of let's get close, but let's also pull away.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: Because we're always trying to straddle this line between how
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: much autonomy are we going to have in this relationship?
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: And how much togetherness? This is this sort of unspoken
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: contract of relationship is how do we find something called interdependence?
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Where it gets very where it can get very messy
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: is when one person is just really values autonomy and
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: has a hard time being needed, They have a hard
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: time being present, they have a hard time with intimacy.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: And the other person who's so anxious and then never
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: feels like they can really lean on themselves, so they
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: feel extra needy in a relationship, particularly if someone's pulling away.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: There's so many different nuances, and so what's important for
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: the listener and for anyone who who's thinking about this
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: is how has how has that played out for you
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: in your life? What are some of the patterns that
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: you have seen? What is your relationship with freedom? What
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: is your relationship with togetherness? Do you prefer more togetherness?
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: You did?
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: You do?
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: You have a lot of abandonment in your life, and
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: therefore you need someone to be in a relationship where
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: there is more togetherness.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: How threatened are you by by having to meet someone's
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: emotional needs? These are the things that we need to
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: hear ourselves, because for a relationship to work, both people
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: need to be highly invested in meeting each other's emotional
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: needs while at the same time capable of meeting their own.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: And it's a process.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard for me to even wrap my head
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: around attachment styles and labeling myself one versus another. I
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: feel like I'm all of them, yes, right, because it's
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: and I've been. I've been all of them at some point,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: transitioned or grown through certain ones to make life better
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: and to make a relationship feel stronger.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: So I feel like this whole labeling of attachment styles
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: for me has never felt right.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that makes sense.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I heard you say also that the top three
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: reasons in a relationship when a relationship fails are stress,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: taking each other for granted, and resentment. Yes those high yes, yes, yes, yes,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: I have them all.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: I think people are so afraid to have those hard
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: conversations because we're afraid to hurt someone or have that
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: tough conversation with your partner. How do we do that?
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, A lot of people don't have the tough conversations
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: because they're afraid of not being good enough for the person.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: They're afraid that if they express this vulnerability, this need
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: that the other person's going to reject them, like so
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: many pretty much all the things that we do in
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: a relationship where we're dancing around intimacy or we're not
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: having the hard conversations, is because we are trying to
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: protect ourselves from losing love. At the end of the day,
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: you peel away the onion, you get to the core,
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: and that's really what it is, and that's what I
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: want people to understand. It is always a fear that
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: you are not going to be loved, that you're not
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: going to be good enough for someone. So how do
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: we have the hard conversations. There's certain principles that we
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: need to in order to make communication effective and artful,
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: because it really is sort of an art. One is
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: leading with love and so what do I mean by that?
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: You have to remember that the person you're speaking to
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: is not a monster. They're not your enemy. If you
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: really really see them as your enemy, if you really
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: truly see them as a monster, you need to get
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: out of that relationship fast.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: But if you can kind.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: Of slow down your body and your breath a little
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: bit and recognize they're not a monster.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: So you have to lead with love. And that means
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: you don't.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: Make you statements, you make I and WE statements, because
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: the moment you go into you, you're going into blame,
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: and the moment you're going into blame, you've lost the battle.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: Like it's there, it's done. It's a rapid anywhere. Yeah,
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: it's like before it even gets started, it's over. So
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: you have to do that and lead with compassion and
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: with love and respect and and have some sort of
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: heartfelt understanding for the pain that your partner is in,
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: even if it was not your intention. A hard conversation
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: also has to be led with some sort of vulnerability
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: and directness, Like sometimes the hard conversation is we've been
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: seeing each other, we're on the fifth date, and it's time.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: You know, we should talk about sex.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Even though people don't talk about sex, the people avoid
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: that conversation. People are much more comfortable getting naked and
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: exchanging fluids with one another than they are talking about
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: their needs. And then what happens is a lot of
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: people get into trouble. They get attached to someone who's
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: not attached to them. They have sex. It's not even
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: that good, but they're doing it because they think that
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: they should do it.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: This is more something that women feel.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Do you talk a lot about how we should wait?
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: Yes, well I think there's no I don't believe in
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: any hard fast rules, you know. I think it's deeply
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: personal all but what I do believe is have the
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: conversation if you attach after having sex with someone who
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: you actually like, which is about ninety five percent of women.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Special you know it really is.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: I think for women it decreases a little bit with menopause,
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: just because with estrogen going down, what happens is that
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: not as much oxytocin is released. And then women when
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: they're when they're transitioning into menopause and beyond, women tend
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: to become much more self sufficient, a lot more independent.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: With that said, I've worked with women who are well
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: past menopause years. You get attached, so I think you
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: know again nuance. So if you're someone who gets attached
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: after you have sex with someone, so many women will
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: bullshit themselves and just say, yeah, you know, I can
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: do it whatever, it's okay, And what ends up happening
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: for countless women is that they have sex, they don't
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: actually even enjoy the sex that much, or or even
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: if they do, let's say they do, well, guess what,
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: they want more. But they don't just want more sex,
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: they want more of the person. Whereas for a man,
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: for a lot of men, not all, certainly, not all,
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: but for a lot of men, if he's not, if
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: he doesn't have a strong emotional connection to you, he
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: can go back for good sex without it being anything
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: more than that to him. And so wherever you fall
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: on the spectrum, however you identify with this, protect yourself
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: emotionally And isn't their value in way in doing that?
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's not so much facue. Yeah, there's so
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: much value there. Just protect yourself, protect your heart, and
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: protect your heart, protect your heart. That's it.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you have to be guarded, no available,
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: no or avoidant or whatever.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: No, no, no.
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: In fact, if you're guarded, you're not going to get
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: many people to be.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: That interested in you.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: You'll get the occasional one who likes the challenge and
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: wants to kind of break down your walls, but eventually
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: he or she will get bored with that.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. What if you're the kind of person in
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: a relationship where words are so important and like something
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: will be said you can't unsay or unhear something in
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: like say a fight or an argument. Yeah, what if
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: you're the person that ruminates that on those the bad
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: things that they heard, and they just can't stop thinking
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: about them for days or weeks, And it's like it
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: can kind of just create this environment where not only
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: you but your partner is walking around on eggshells and
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: you how do you solve the conflict? Yeah, but also
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: not constantly like keep reliving it, resaying it, rehearing it
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: in your in your mind.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: Okay, So this is a really great question. Can you
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: give me an example and I'm going to break it
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: down for you. Let me see and we can make
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: up an example. Yeah, like say, in an argument, oh
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: this is good. This is very vulnerable to me.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: In an argument that I had recently with Dave, he
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: said something that pissed me off and hurt my feelings.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: He said, oh, now that you have a self help podcast,
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: you know everything, or something like that, and I was like, oouch, No,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: that's not why I'm saying the things I'm saying. But
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: like when someone sort of belittles you or takes what
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: you is important to you and makes it something negative, Okay,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: So who's Dave in your life? My husband?
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: Okay, So what do you think was going on for
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: him in that moment in his Let's let's take this
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: in stages. Let's lead with love, let's lead with love,
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: and let's go, let's go and stay. What do you
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: think was happening for him in that moment in his body?
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: If you were to put yourself literally, if you could
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: step into his body, into his nervous system, into his
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: entire physiology, the moments that led up to him saying
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: that to you, what do you think he was experiencing
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: in his body? Well?
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: I know that he works now on not fleeing, not
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: taking flight. Okay, So I know that he was in
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: that place of between being defensive about something and wanting
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: to just get the hell out of there. He was
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: kind of torn, okay, trying to figure that out in
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: his own mind. And think I think words were just
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: coming out to deflect or defend himself.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: And how do you think that state? How do you
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: think that manifested in his body? Was he tense, was
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: he sweating?
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Was he nervous?
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: Do you think his heart rate was elevated or do
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: you think his heart rate was normal.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: No, I think he was. Yeah, and it texts tense
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: and just felt like upset.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very unsure.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: So you said something very important he became He felt
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: very uncertain. What do you think he was uncertain of?
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: I think maybe he would fear that I'm outgrowing him
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: or I don't have a place for him in my
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: life in some way.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Yes, So in that moment, he was uncertain of his
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: importance to you, his significance to you, he was uncertain
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: of your love in that moment. Not saying that you
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: did that, We're just trying to get into his nervous
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: system and what he was experiencing. M So in that
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: moment of do I fight, do I flee? Oh my god,
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to work on not fleeing. So I'm going
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: to be here right now. I'm really used to fleeing.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: Fleeing is how I how I go into my cave
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: and I protect myself.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: But here I have to stay and I'm totally ill equipped.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: I don't have this skills yet to actually communicate, and
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: I feel not enough right now, but I don't know
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: that consciously. But my heart rate is going up, my
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: blood pressure is going up, because right now the saber
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: tooth tiger is the fact that I might not be
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: good enough, I might lose love. I'm not going to
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: be the man that I need that I need to be,
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: And so I'm going to say something totally immature and
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: totally inappropriate because tagger and exactly because I am so
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: frickin scared. That does not excuse it. It's still like
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: an immature thing to say. But your original question is
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: how do you stop ruminating about it? You're ruminating about
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: it because you're giving it a meaning. He doesn't care,
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: He belittles everything like that. What I'm trying to point
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: out is that is the humanity behind that statement, and
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: so it does mean that it doesn't need to be addressed,
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: or it's not doesn't hurt, or doesn't sting.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: But you can.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: Stop ruminating about it because the meaning that you give
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: him give to what he said can now change to oh,
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: I understand more of why he said that, and that
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: might give.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: You your your mind a little bit of freedom. Does it?
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: It? Does? It?
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Really does? I think that's so important to sort of,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: maybe not in the heat of the moment, but afterwards,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: to take yourself aside and get quiet and think about
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: like why what is he feeling that made him say that?
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: But even in the moment, what you can practice doing
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: is saying, but let's take a deep breath.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: I love you. I know you're probably really fucking scared
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: right now. I am too.
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: I'm really frustrated to I don't like what you said,
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: but I love you. I'm not going anywhere. I obviously
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: don't know your marriage. But this is just an example of,
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: you know, how can we get to the core of it,
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: and how can we do it faster?
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: How can we do it actually in the moment.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that for me, starts with like a
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: deep breath.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Always like a major deep breath. Okay, yeah, that's saying
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: a moment, it's a time out.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, even if it only lasts for a few seconds.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: Yes, And then when you start to think about it
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: this way, it creates empathy because then you're like, oh, right,
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: this person didn't actually mean to be like, yeah, stupid
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: immature thing for him to say. It was just his
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: seven year old coming out because he felt so afraid,
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: and maybe yeah, he fell back into a corner. He
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: felt afraid, and yes, as a married couple, you want
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: to be working towards making sure that the inner teenager
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: and inner child comes out less and less right.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: But if we can have compassion for each other in
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: those moments, yep, then you can have compassion under standing
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: for him, and then he can be like, you know what,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: because by him feeling seen in that way, he you know,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: the goal would be like you know what, I wish
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: I didn't say that, you know, I'm sorry. And that's
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: really the process of repair.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: And so that's what I mean by you're not Really
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: it's not about seeing the monster, but can you see
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: like where they could be coming from, and so that
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: stops the rumination.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: It's so easy for people to get caught up in
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: their own stresses, in their own lives. I know I
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: am guilty of this.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we get very self and working. Yeah yes, yeah, I.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Hate that about I hate that as a characteristic of myself.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: I don't ever want to be self consumed, but sometimes
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: it happens. Yes, I'm being honest. That can lead to
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: disconnection from your partner. Yes, my therapist always taught me
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: it's circle, square circle. There are two circles, the two
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: people in the relationship, and then there's that square in
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: the middle where we're feeding that square. We're putting good things,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: energies into that square, and we're creating that space that
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: is just ours together. Yeah, but sometimes my circle gets
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: so big and loud and busy that I can disconnect.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: I can start just trudging ahead, you know, full steam ahead.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: How important is it for people to somehow maintain their
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: own identity in a relationship but also remember to feed
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: that square, that middle space.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: You know, it's an interesting thing.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: A lot of times when people say, I want, you know,
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: I don't want to lose myself in the relationship. I
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: want to know the story around that, because sometimes sometimes
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: it's very legitimate. Oh I lose myself in the relationship,
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: but I want to know what that means to someone,
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: Like what does it mean to you personally to lose
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: yourself in a relationship? And then what's your story around that?
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: Because a lot of times we'll sort of like we'll
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: have this internal battle, will be it war with ourselves, like,
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: oh my god, I want to be available, but I
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: also want time for myself. I want to be available,
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: I want time for myself, And then we think we
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: get resentful towards our partner, when really it's the battle
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: that we're facing that we're battling with ourselves. It's a
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: story that we have about autonomy and losing ourselves in
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: a relationship, and we think that the other person or
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: the relationship is the threat, when really the threat is
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: our belief system around it. So that's different if I
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: was working with someone who was highly codependent. And what
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: I mean by that is that in their relationships they
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: abandon everything about themselves and only focus on their partner.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: They really they don't talk about their needs. They don't.
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: It's it's it's it can be quite severe. We're always
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: trying to figure out again that balance between autonomy and
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: being with the other person. But whenever I say, whenever
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: I hear people say I'm afraid of losing myself, I
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: always get curious about the story around that, because I
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: wonder if there's a little bit of story that needs
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: to be sort of readjusted and looked at a different way.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: So when you're in that moment, so this is where
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: like the self awareness piece comes in. So when you're
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: in that moment, it's like you take the deep breath,
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: that's a moment to like have a seat, take a chill,
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: and just be like Okay.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: What am I?
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: What's my deal right now? Why am I? Why am I.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: Spinning right now? What's the story that I have? What's
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: the fear that I have? What's the worry that I have?
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: And so that's how that's literally how you do it.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: It's and it's just getting really practiced at when you're
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: in that state, and sometimes you just have to sit
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: down and be like, what do I need right now?
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: Because maybe you need a hug, maybe what you actually
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: need is more connection, or maybe what you need is
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: a bath or I don't know, but checking in with
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: yourself when you're kind of like in that moment, like
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: what's what are the thoughts? Because feelings are faster than thoughts,
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: you have to kind of sit down. You got to
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: slow down, and then you can just ask yourself, like,
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: what's going on with me right now? Why am I
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: spinning right now?
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: I think that's such a good thing. A good takeaway
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: for people is to check in with themselves and ask
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: themselves what they need.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: It's the self awareness. Yeah, it's the self awareness for sure.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: You said before about codependency. Yeah, I heard this morning
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: in a conversation interdependency. Yeah, please tell me the difference sure,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: because I for a long time have said, yeah, I'm codependent,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: and I'm proud of it, Like, yeah, I have no
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: problem with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't feel like
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: it's damaging. But I'm intrigued by this concept of interdependency.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Okay, what is it?
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: So interdependency is just the it's just sort of the
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: dance between I need me and I need you and
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: I you know, codependencies gets this really bad rap and
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: everyone's like, oh, you're you're dependent, Like we need each other,
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: we need each other, and we need to depend on
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: each other.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: True codependency is really again.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: It's more I am going to abandon myself and only
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: focus on you, right. We see that a lot in
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: uh relationships where there's addiction and alcoholism. It's I'm just
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: going to focus on you and your sobriety or you
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: I'm just focusing on you getting sober, and I'm not
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: even thinking about what I need and what I want
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: and what makes me happy. And codependency is also when
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: it can go left right, when it can go astray
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: is when two people are making each other responsible for
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: their happiness and so neediness, which is not the same
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: thing as having needs, Neediness starts to prevail in that relationship,
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: and neediness prevails when it's like when you when you
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: think and you rely on your partner to fulfill you,
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: when really fulfillment is an inside job. Hopefully you're in
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: a relationship with someone. When I say you, I just
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: mean everyone. You get into relationships with someone who makes
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: your life better, you know, who supports you, who you
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: know it's not always going to be your go through
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: hard times, but at the end of the day, you're like, overall,
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: my life is better because.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: We're in each other's lives.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: But a lot of people they get into relationships with
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: this thing, with this idea that if I'm with the
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: right person, I'm always going to be happy, or you know,
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: why isn't this person making me happy? When really it's
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: the relationship that we the goal. The whole essence behind
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: strengthening the relationship with ourselves is really learning how to
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: find meaning and fulfillment inside and in life without having
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: to outsource it constantly. That's really the essence of working
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: on oneself and so interdependence.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: Again, it's a dance.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: But I realize I'm responsible for my own happiness. I
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: have needs that I need to be able to meet
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: for myself and and I'm also a social animal, and
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: we are in partnership, and I need to rely on you.
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: Eric From said it best, and I'm butchering it a
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: little bit, but I'll get the gist. The person who
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: is mature in love is the person who needs the
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: person because they love them, doesn't love the person because
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: they need them.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: That I need a minute with.
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's you kind of have to let
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: that settle in.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: I love the person because I need them or I
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: need a person. Wait, what tell me?
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: Ideally you want to need your husband because you love
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: him because you choose him, so you need him, versus
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: you love him and you choose him because.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: You need him. Right, you want the first, I want
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: the first. The second one sounds like an unhealthy attachment.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: It's neediness, and it usually speaks to, Okay, well, let's
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: talk about your life and how you can meet your
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: own needs and not just have someone in your life,
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: because you feel like if you don't have someone in
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: your life, you're no one, you know. So there's there's
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: a lot to really unpack in that statement alone, but
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: I think it really defines the essence of it.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: All And it's so wild how throughout your timeline of
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: life you could have all these different relationships and experiences
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: and each of them can be different, like just depending
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: on the dance within the relationship.
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, absolutely absolutely, And we're different people in different relationships.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's so important for people to acknowledge
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: and recognize about themselves, Like we grow every single day,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: like we're learning and changing all the time. And so
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: just because we maybe had a terrible experience or we
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: weren't our best selves in one situation relationship, it doesn't
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: mean that's how we are in all relationships.
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: Right exactly, Because a relationship is a dynamic between two
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: or more people, yep. And so we're these two separate
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: entities that come together and form this thing that we
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: share between us, which is our relationship, and how we
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: interact with each other.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: It changes. It depends on who you're in a relation.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: That's why some people, you can be in a relationship.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: And all your attachment issues come up with that person,
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: and then they're with someone else and it's really barely
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: coming up.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: That's because who you choose matters.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: Who you choose matter, who.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: You choose matters.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about like red flags. Let's say
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: you're looking for a partner. I learned I went after
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: my divorce and before I started dating, when I was
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: in that phase of like I don't want to start dating,
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: I'll just be alone forever. I'm good.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know I feeling.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: My therapist was like, let's talk about your non negotiables.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: What are the things that are most important to you
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: and really clarify what you want and what you don't want.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: What are the subtle red flags that we shouldn't be
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: ignoring when we're looking for a partner, Like we can
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: go inside and reflect and talk about our think about
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: our no negotiables and what we want we don't want.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: But what are red flags?
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: Like red flags like.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: Yea, Well, there's the obvious like abusive, yes, right, verbally, physically, addiction, those.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: Kinds of yesses.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: But what are the the more secondary red flag?
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: Sure, so the secondary red flags are they bad mouth
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: their exes without ever taking any accountability. So that's that's
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: a big one. Yes, some red flags are. This is
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: also age and stage of life dependent. But let's say
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: you know you're over the age of thirty. They don't
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: have their life together, like they haven't figured out any
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: sort of purpose in life, or and they could be
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: like still sort of figuring that out. But after a
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: certain age, you want to make sure that someone has
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: some financial stability. You want to make sure.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: That they have just some stability. I think that's very important.
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: A red flag is also that they I mean, there's
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: just like how they treat the waiter, how they treat others,
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: how they treat themselves.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: That's a big one.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: Oh, I always watch how they treat the waiter, the waitress.
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because you're looking for people with strong character, and
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: our work is to try to develop our own character.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: So how they treat others, their.
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: Words and their actions, are they aligning or their actions
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: never really matching their words? Are they consistent with you
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: or are they totally inconsistent where you feel like you
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: just don't know where how this person feels about you
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: one minute they're really hot with you. Well that's a huge,
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: huge red flag and warrants. Yeah, here's the thing. These
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: secondary red flags warn't a conversation, Hey, I notice that
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: this is happening.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: What's up? Or this is I know this this is happening?
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: Or I noticed you said something to your mother the
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: other day that wasn't just so nice, And I'm just curious.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: I'd love to know a little bit.
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: More about what that relationship is like, you know. So
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: sometimes it's not about immediately writing the person off, but
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: just opening up for conversation and then seeing what it
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: is that they have to say about it.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: Other red flags are they.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, believe it or not, you don't share if
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: you're looking for like long term partnership, you don't share
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: the same values.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a red fag. That's that's that's an indication
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: that you should not be pursuing a relationship with them.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: And then and then here's here's another thing that people
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: don't pay enough attention to. How do you feel when
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: you're with this person?
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: Do you feel comfortable sharing an opinion? Do you feel
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: comfortable being yourself?
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's so important.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: It's very important.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: I think again, it's just about asking yourself these questions
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: and listening for the real answers about how you're feeling. Yeah,
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: and not trying to sugarcoat or make things, you know,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: rainbows and ponies. Yes, because you want something so badly. Yes,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: it's not going to change, it's not going to change.
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: And I don't think that you should that anyone should
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: be seeing anyone for more than three months without a LA.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: You don't think anybody should be seeing anybody for more
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: than three months without a label.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what are what are we? What are are we
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: working towards something? Are we monogamous? Like? What are we?
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: Are we?
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: What's going on? Don't don't let it stay in the
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: gray area. But a lot of people's, particularly women, will
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: let it stay in the gray air because they're afraid
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: and they you know, they don't want to say anything.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: But don't three months.
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: You should know if you don't know after three months,
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: particularly if it's you know, some people, there's a very
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: slow start, there's travel, there's kids, you're not spending time.
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: But if you're spending consistent time with someone for three
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: months and you don't know, there's your answer.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, there's your answer, whether you want to listen to.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: It or not.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: I also think you know. Another red flag is you're
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: spending consistent time together and there's no.
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: There's no integration of you into their life. You're not
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: meeting their friends, you're not meeting their family. Your relationship
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: on exists in a bubble with them. You got to
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: be very careful that that doesn't happen, because you can't
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: know a person unless you know their world.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Can't truly, really truly learn.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: About another person without seeing them interact with their friends,
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: with your friends, family, Like anyone can be cool when
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: you exist in a bubble.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, you got to look outside the bubble.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: You have to.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So I have a friend who is in
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: the throes of a breakup. Her boyfriend of eight years
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: ghosted her as his way of ending their relationship. Ghosted her. Oh,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: what what do you do? How do you there's no closure,
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: there's what how do you move forward from that? What
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: are there things that she should be doing to help
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: herself while she's healing from this trauma?
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: Like, yeah, so let me ask me, guys, let me
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: ask you this. What how lucky is she to be
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: rid of this guy?
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I didn't know him.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, you didn't know him.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: This is before we met, Okay, but I mean, was
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: it a different relationship with her after eight years? I'm
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: pretty sure it's a good thing that this is happening.
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's never a good thing, obviously to
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: get broken up with in that way and it's very,
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: very traumatizing. But what she needs to remember is that
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: I would imagine that leading up to that, things could
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: not be very easy.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: Maybe she didn't acknowledge that or see that. Our wont to.
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: See that, Yes, but that's part of the healing process,
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: is to be able to acknowledge that and that one thing.
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: And this isn't going to take all her pain away,
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: But I think this is an important thing to realize
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: when a person goess, especially if they're ghosting a relationship
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: versus like a dating scenario, which is so much more serious.
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: They're only going to be haunted by their own ghost,
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: which is their conscience. I really believe that none of
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: us get away with anything in life.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: No, And we may see seem like we do in
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: the immediate moment, in the moment, in the immediate.
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: But we never really do because that's going to weigh heavily.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: On his conscience.
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: And or he's just going to bring that terrible immaturity
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: to his next relationship and have more relationship pain.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: So he's not going to get away with it. And
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: that's not going to take away her.
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: Pain, but maybe it'll take it'll ease the suffering a
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: little bit for her that he's not.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: He's not scot free from this.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: And I would also be very if I were speaking
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: to her, I'd be very curious to know, like what
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: what were the events and the things leading up to
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: this ghosting scenario?
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: How how bad was it.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: And if it was bad for one or the other,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: why wasn't in.
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: A conversation, you know, because he couldn't handle it. He
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: couldn't handle it, And we don't know, We don't know
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: what was going on between the two of them. We
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: don't know what would happen when he tried to talk
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: to her. We don't know what really goes on behind
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: closed doors in a person's relationship.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: So true, but it's more.
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: About him than anything else, unless, you know, unless there
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: are scenarios where that happens, because every time you try
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: to talk to the person, they start kicking and screaming
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: quite literally. But more often than not, it's you know,
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: it's uh. The person is not ghosting because they're trying
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: to get themselves out of an unsafe situation.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: They're ghosting because because of their own.
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: Character defects, right, they don't know how to handle it. Yeah,
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: they can't they're too too afraid, too mature.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, oh, there's so many much I could talk
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: to you. I want to have you back with my
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: husband on I don't know if you so much fun
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: it's it must be feel really good to be able
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: to help people on the level that you do.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I try. I mean, I'm you know,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: I'm humans.
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: So sometimes I feel like, you know, maybe I'm not
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: helping out and you know, like you get into your
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: head about stuff like that. But I do the best
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: that I can, and.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: It does feel good when I am able to make
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: any kind of impact.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: So for sure, before I let you go, Jillian, what
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: was your last I Choose me moment?
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: Oh hmmm, you know, I think it was. It was
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: a very kind of like tempered I choose me. It
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: wasn't like a stand on the top of the mountain
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: like I Choose me kind of moment. Those moments exist, Okay,
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: those moments exist. Yeah, there's moments I guess and I'm
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: and I'm all, I'm here for them. It was more
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: like a quiet one of just I just kind of
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: had been in an emotional rut and couldn't figure it,
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: Like just feeling very easily triggered and not relationally, just
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: with life and just I guess stress. And I think
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: the I Choose Me moment was, you know what, like,
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: you're going back to your routine of meditation and yoga,
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: and you're not going to shorten it. You're actually going
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: to elongate it. Because this has gotten, it's getting it's
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: getting to the place of unmanageability, and so it's time
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: to actually put the folk, use the tools that you
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: have in your tool belt, and get back at to
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: the things that are really important and everything else will
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: have to wait.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: And that was an I Choose Me moment, my most
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: recent one.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: That's a pretty big one.
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: It is a pretty big one. Yeah, I guess it's
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: bigger than I thought.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: So necessary. Yeah, so good, so good. I wish you
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: every best thing, and congratulations so much on your book.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate so much. It was so nice
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: to meet you and to talk with you.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, she was so good. I could literally listen to
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: her for hours and talk with her. Even though I've
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: learned so much, I just feel like there's so much
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: more I could learn. We're going to have to get
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: her back on the podcast. In the future, because I
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: still have like a million more questions than I want
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: to ask her, and I want my hub to sit
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: here with me and talk to her. Is that weird?
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: That'll be wild? Okay? As we continue to choose ourselves
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: each week, I want you this week to take a
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: look at maybe what your attachment style is. We talked
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: about it today. I kind of feel like I'm all
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: of the attachment styles mixed into one, and that's okay.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if you're married, divorced, single, widowed. Take
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: a ten minute quiz online and figure out what your
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: attachment style is. Then you'll know. And like we said today,
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that's how it's always going to be.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: It might be specific to just this relationship or just
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: these lessons that you need to be focusing on learning
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: right now. When we take the time to know more
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: about what we need in a relationship or why we
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: respond the way we do, it can lead us to
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: making better choices for ourselves in the future. Thanks for
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: listening to I Choose Me. You can check out all
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: our social links in our show notes and go leave
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: us a review on whatever platform you're on. Make sure
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: to use the hashtag I choose me, I will be
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: right here next week. I hope you choose to be
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: here too,