Latest / Teachers Talk Radio / Ofsted consultants, social media bans and rules vs relationships - What is the next educational spat?: The Twilight Show with Tony Harwood

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Ofsted consultants, social media bans and rules vs relationships - What is the next educational spat?: The Twilight Show with Tony Harwood · Teachers Talk Radio

• 0:00
  Welcome to TQO Talk Radio! Thank you for listening!
• 0:20
  Good evening, educators, and welcome to The Twilight Show here on Teachers Talk Radio.
• 0:27
  I've got two great guests for you this evening, guys.
• 0:31
  I'm very happy to be joined by two very knowledgeable practitioners,
• 0:36
  I've got my regular guest, Yannick, and I've got new to my show, I've got Zoe Enser.
• 0:44
  Good evening, both of you. Hope you're both good. Evening very well, thank you.
• 0:50
  How are you, Yannick? All good? Very good. Yeah, I hope you've had a good day.
• 0:55
  It's been a bit of a long day for me today.
• 1:00
  It's that sort of time where January feels like it's never going to end.
• 1:06
  We're pushing through so we've got for
• 1:09
  you this evening some interesting and
• 1:13
  potentially kind of well we don't
• 1:15
  want to say controversial topics but there's a couple of topics and
• 1:18
  things that I've seen around that piqued
• 1:22
  my interest in terms of what's going on what's
• 1:25
  topical out there I probably
• 1:28
  spend a little bit too much time on social media
• 1:31
  which is ironic seeing as one of the things that we'll get into tonight
• 1:35
  is this social media ban
• 1:38
  for under 16s now what's interesting
• 1:41
  about that for me is i don't know you two might i think you
• 1:44
  two are aware of this is i got hacked on
• 1:47
  my x account which meant that on i think
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  it was um i think it was christmas day or
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  or christmas eve i can't remember it was around christmas where
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  i had i must have clicked on that link we had we
• 2:00
  had this link and by the way if any of you out there get this message saying
• 2:04
  please can you I need these extra votes for something I don't even know what
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  it was but liking it I didn't even think I'd clicked on it but I must have done
• 2:12
  I think because it came from somebody who I thought was someone I knew but obviously
• 2:17
  it was someone who had been hacked.
• 2:20
  I was what a silly thing to do but anyway because I was hacked I didn't have
• 2:24
  access to my x account for a couple of weeks and in fact i think i'm going to
• 2:28
  lose my my x account and what was interesting is somebody i heard coined the
• 2:34
  other day something called f-o-m-o.
• 2:37
  I don't know if it's FOMO. FOMO. Have you heard of that Zoe?
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  Do you know what it's called? Yeah, I can do.
• 2:44
  It's about, I can't even think what it's called. We know what we mean when we talk about FOMO.
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  Yeah, fear of missing out apparently. I had not heard this before,
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  but I really felt like I was missing out.
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  So one of the things that I think some people are saying is young people are
• 3:03
  so tied to their accounts, their social media accounts.
• 3:08
  So I don't know. It's something I'm going to ask both of you.
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  I know that you've got to disappear in about half an hour, Zoe.
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  So I'm really pleased to have you on.
• 3:16
  And Yannick, obviously, also for coming on once again.
• 3:20
  I just thought it'd be interesting just to see what our opinions are on some of these things.
• 3:24
  So we're going to get into this debate about mobile phones. The government obviously
• 3:28
  are going to try and exert some influence.
• 3:32
  They haven't made a decision yet, have they? I wanted to, I don't know if you
• 3:36
  know anything about other countries.
• 3:37
  Yannick heard France were quite likely to do it. I don't know if that's the case.
• 3:42
  I think Austria has put some kind of ban in place. I don't know if it's on the
• 3:46
  social media or whatever, but certainly we know Australia is the model that the UK might follow.
• 3:52
  This show, by the way, everyone, is sponsored by Hachette Learning.
• 3:57
  OK, so they are publishers of professional development books and resources that
• 4:02
  support great teaching and learning in schools around the world.
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• 4:14
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• 4:19
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• 4:25
  So we're going to start then thinking about this.
• 4:30
  Ofsted is a very topical thing at the moment, and we're very lucky that we've got Zoe on.
• 4:36
  Zoe has quite considerable experience in this area as a former HMI.
• 4:44
  So between, obviously, we're going to see what our opinions are, what our feelings are.
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  I've not seen the new – I've not been involved in an inspection under the new
• 4:56
  framework. Have you, Yannick?
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  I don't think you have, have you? Because I know that you had one a similar
• 5:01
  time to my school, Haddon Ofsted, a couple of years ago.
• 5:05
  Yeah. So it would be – we're in the window –,
• 5:10
  Because we are, let's say we're an improving school, we are improving,
• 5:15
  so we are expecting Ofsted, which will be under the new framework, of course.
• 5:21
  We don't know exactly when, but it could be soon. So, yeah, so we're expecting
• 5:26
  it. It'll be interesting to see what the difference is.
• 5:29
  So, yeah, so let's just start with that. So, obviously, Zoe,
• 5:33
  we as teachers are quite interested. You have a more contextual view than we do.
• 5:42
  How do you feel that the new framework is looking?
• 5:46
  So do you feel like things are improving and how do you feel it's going down
• 5:50
  with schools at the moment?
• 5:52
  Well, firstly, I have got a school that's in the window. They're kind of due
• 5:56
  and so we have that Monday morning of seeing whether the call comes in.
• 6:00
  So we've still got that element, which I know was a big factor for heads.
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  At least it's Monday, as opposed to thinking Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
• 6:08
  So there's a bit more consistency there.
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  What I'm hearing from people in the sector is that it is much more relational.
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  It does feel more like a conversation and a collaboration.
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  Personally, whenever I was on inspection, I did work very hard to make it collaborative
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  and a conversation with leaders to really understand the context of everything
• 6:31
  that was going on within that school when I was talking to them.
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  But it's certainly the message that I'm hearing. Some people who've experienced
• 6:39
  the new framework hadn't been inspected for a while.
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  Some of those were the kind of schools that volunteered to put themselves forward
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  because they wanted to have a little bit more control of when that happened,
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  if they could. And that's understandable as well.
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  And their experiences, again, and if you look at the reports that have just
• 6:56
  started to come out over the last few weeks, you'll see a lot of those are landing
• 7:00
  in that kind of strong area or exceptional area.
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  So these were schools that were obviously feeling very, very confident.
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  I think we'll get more of a spread of a sample of what other schools are experiencing
• 7:12
  in that situation as we go forward and that will be interesting to watch.
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  I think there are a few areas where I'm not convinced by.
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  So for example, the continuing to combine attendance and behaviour. I think that the
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  we have a lot more kind of sway when it comes to dealing with behaviour in our
• 7:33
  school than perhaps all of the time with attendance because that is not just
• 7:38
  an individual school picture.
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  It's a national picture and it's also an international picture.
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  We've seen that real decline in school attendance and
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  that can be really tricky to then be saying you are
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  going to have that kind of judgment sat there around attendance
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  but actually we recognise you couldn't have necessarily done anything
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  more with that and if it was teased
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  out you'd be able to really see that whereas being subsumed
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  with behaviour I think that makes it trickier so
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  so that that was kind of the area there was some discussion earlier
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  about in the in the kind of first iterations that they
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  were going to separate out teaching and curriculum and I
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  was quite vocal that I thought that would be a mistake and actually they've
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  got those together so that seems to be a positive but I do it's always the proof
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  of the puddings in the eating it's always going what is the experience of the
• 8:29
  schools yeah validity of what's happening and we know that there can be issues with validity.
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  Yeah i like what you i am sort of relieved to hear about context being quite
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  a central thing our school has
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  a very i mean all schools have a context don't they we all we know that.
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  But in terms of what Bridget Philipson has said in the past about white British
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  students, we live in an area that's not that culturally, sorry,
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  I teach in an area that's not very culturally diverse.
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  And I think sometimes that's an implication. We're also coastal where I teach.
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  I wouldn't say we're out in the middle of nowhere because we're not really as
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  such, but recruitment still is an issue. So all of those factors,
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  which I'm sure you're aware, Zoe, are contributing to that.
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  And if Ofsted are starting to listen a bit more to that, then I think people
• 9:26
  will rest a little bit easier.
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  What do you think, Yannick? Do you feel, you know, in terms of your experience,
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  I know that we've not seen the new framework yet, but do you feel like Ofsted
• 9:37
  are sensitive to context?
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  Well, it's the idea. I mean, the problem with Ofsted is like, you know that,
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  I mean, I like what you said, it is a conversation at the end of the day,
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  but following that conversation, you know that you're going to have a report
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  that's being published. And quite rightly, people are scared of that.
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  And they want to tick all the boxes to make sure that report is good.
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  That's not how it works, because then you end up doing things for Ofsted,
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  and that's not what it should ever be like.
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  The last school I was in, which got RI, was totally justified.
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  You know what I mean? And then if your school is good, then it's good.
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  But the problem is when you start, well, yeah, because there's so much linked to that report.
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  It's being published, and of course, it's quite, I mean, we want to pass that exam.
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  Any kind of school want to pass that exam because you know that if you're in
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  RI or any kind of those categories, then it's hard work. It's incredibly hard
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  work. Nobody wants to be that.
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  But that's the issue, isn't it? So I'm not sure how the new framework changes
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  anything to that because there's still the stigma of studies coming.
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  And I see it all the time.
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  Oh, you know, pray for us. You know, we've had the call.
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  And yeah I was
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  gonna say I think those past experiences really do matter and I
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  think you know the sector have had those kind
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  of negative experiences and we were talking just while we went on air about
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  uh the work that needs to be done with communities but also you know what does
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  it mean to get a requires attention is that the city's not the same as RI there
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  is obviously an attempt in offset to bring in more nuance but then if you are
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  a school there with particularly.
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  Achievement rather than attainment.
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  If you're a school that's achievement isn't typically in line with national
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  averages, which some of those schools we've been talking about there where they've
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  got particular context may not be,
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  having that area highlighted to your community as being what seems to be a concern,
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  that can be quite a big thing.
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  So I think there's a lot of recalibration that's needed if we are going to be
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  embracing this more nuanced approach, which it looks like we're having to.
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  And that means work both with the teachers and understanding how,
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  It might be okay to be in a school with a requires attention in one area.
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  And the same for parents and carers to understand what that means.
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  And it doesn't mean that this school, it probably means the school is typical.
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  And Ofsted have kind of put out this information that we will be expecting perhaps
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  more schools to have a bit of a mixed profile.
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  It's not just simply, you know, obviously we lost the kind of one word judgment anyway.
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  It's not just simply this is a good school this is an
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  ri school it's actually a typical school which has got strengths in some areas
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  and some other areas which they're working on so you know i can see the theory
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  of having this much more nuanced picture but again how does that land on the
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  ground what does it mean for the people in those schools what does it mean for
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  those families looking at the reports.
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  That's it, isn't it? It's exactly that. What does it mean for the people at the end of the day?
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  For me, the big issue is how it's published and used as a tool to advertise
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  a school. That, to me, is completely wrong.
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  On the one hand, I think monitoring is great, and everybody should welcome that.
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  Just like as teachers, we welcome being observed to improve.
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  It's it's ultimately that that
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  big banner that people use you know as we're outstanding
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  we're good or well we we are i
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  sorry so nothing you know it's a
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  tricky one isn't it you were yeah i think reputation what
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  goes out in the press i mean i get frustrated when
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  i see in my local press where i am it will
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  say something like schools ranked from best to
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  worst the five worst schools in in
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  essex where I work five worst schools in Essex revealed and
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  you're like what's that really doing for anybody so because
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  people people buy into that people use
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  that and and that reputation sticks and
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  look I'm a big fan of a property program I
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  can guarantee I'll I'll tune in to
• 13:57
  love it or list it and there'll be Kirsty and
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  Phil talking about you know this has got a outstanding or
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  you know especially for the reruns this has got an outstanding school
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  just around the corner or two outstanding schools just around
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  the corner and and i know that we can be quite cynical about
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  that but actually you know it is something that people look at you can still
• 14:17
  see it you go on right move and it will list those kind of details and it makes
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  you wonder that people are still you know even though we're not grading anymore
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  how long before people forget that the grades once existed.
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  It's, you know, it's kind of, yeah, it's something that sticks.
• 14:36
  And, you know, just picking up on what Yannick said earlier,
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  it's that dread, isn't it? That Monday dread.
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  I just tried to sort of think about what that must be like, you know, for my headteacher.
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  Every single Monday but I mean the fact that it is just Monday
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  I wasn't even aware of that Zoe someone said that to me recently so
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  once Monday's out the way yeah yeah but
• 14:56
  we shouldn't again we shouldn't be feeling like that should we but
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  you know I absolutely get why people do feel like that
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  and as I say I've got a school in the window and I was having a
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  conversation and it was like right okay so we'll text
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  you when that comes in and so and I'm finding myself
• 15:11
  you know I'm going all right it's Monday morning we passed then it's okay there's
• 15:15
  not going to be a call in this week so i don't have to reschedule everything
• 15:18
  well it's so scary i mean we've gone a long way from when i started teaching
• 15:25
  it was six weeks before ofsted came and there was six weeks of absolute hell.
• 15:32
  That's much better now at least that you know yeah
• 15:35
  that's true i was in exactly the same position i
• 15:38
  was like six weeks in the same as you and i was like
• 15:41
  where's all my support gone everyone's disappeared
• 15:44
  everyone's gone crazy absolutely so things things are you know things are i
• 15:49
  mean it takes time for things to move on to move forward to to to get better
• 15:53
  it'll never be perfect because you know some people will always be against ofsted
• 15:58
  but i think it's you know strangely enough it's always the the people who don't
• 16:02
  get the outcome they want right,
• 16:04
  Exactly. Tom's put a comment on. I'm going to put Tom's comment up.
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  He's talking about Ofsted and the fact that it drives the media reporting.
• 16:15
  So I suppose what he's saying is we're talking about the media reporting.
• 16:19
  He's still saying that because the system is still high stakes,
• 16:23
  that's always going to be there, I suppose.
• 16:26
  Ofsted drives all this. I would agree.
• 16:30
  At that point you made, the high stakes drives this.
• 16:33
  And we can and I can remember kind
• 16:36
  of in my pre-Ofsted days being really really
• 16:39
  cross about something that I thought Ofsted had done and actually
• 16:42
  when I dug into it it was the DfE wanted
• 16:45
  it and so when it comes to things like high stakes and I know there's been a
• 16:50
  lot of back and forth about whether Ofsted themselves can lower the stakes but
• 16:54
  actually while the DfE still need that information and need that data and want
• 16:59
  to see how schools might need support Obviously, we've got RISE teams now.
• 17:04
  They need to be deployed in a particular direction by the DFE.
• 17:08
  And so I think by the system existing as it is, yes, it continues to be high
• 17:15
  stakes and therefore it does potentially continue to drive that.
• 17:19
  But I think lots of different parts of that have a part to play.
• 17:23
  And I think while the DfE still needs that information and wants that information
• 17:27
  to be made public as well, coming back to that point,
• 17:30
  you know, being a report, having that at the end, having your name or your school
• 17:36
  attached to that report, that does make it more high stakes.
• 17:39
  But I think there's a whole big system issue there, not necessarily...
• 17:46
  Ofsted saying, well, this is going to be fantastic. We're going to continue
• 17:48
  to drive those high stakes.
• 17:50
  It's part of a machine, I guess, which is a bit depressing, but that's kind
• 17:54
  of how the whole government process works.
• 17:57
  This show is brought to you in partnership with Hashit Learning,
• 18:00
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• 18:04
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• 18:07
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• 18:11
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• 18:15
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• 18:37
  today. We can't wait to see you there. Yeah.
• 18:40
  Do you ever see that changing? Because at the moment, well, it has felt like a them and us in the past.
• 18:49
  If what you're saying is more now, it is more people working together with Ofsted.
• 18:55
  Can you ever see a time when Ofsted just
• 18:59
  I don't know permanently deployed into
• 19:02
  trusts or something like that I mean
• 19:05
  it it doesn't do you ever feel like there's going to be a substantial
• 19:08
  change I think some people might say that when Ofsted did the big listen I don't
• 19:15
  know what people were expecting but I mean I don't know maybe maybe they feel
• 19:19
  like it's become more complex than it was before because of all the different
• 19:23
  areas and on the report cards.
• 19:26
  But can you ever see a time when we get,
• 19:30
  extensive changes to how we hold schools accountable?
• 19:36
  I think it's a really tricky one, isn't it?
• 19:39
  Because if we are saying that we need that accountability measure for public
• 19:44
  funds, then that is always going to therefore mean that there's got to be some
• 19:49
  kind of independence or relative independence.
• 19:52
  If, as you say, you know deploying inspectors within
• 19:55
  trusts then you you know
• 19:58
  are we marking our own homework how does that kind of independent accountability
• 20:02
  work whether we need a completely
• 20:05
  different not of stead accountability like
• 20:08
  that that's a question to ask and that's
• 20:11
  a question that it would be kind of a governmental decision around what
• 20:15
  that should be and if if that is the case there's a
• 20:18
  lot there's a lot of schools in England there's a lot of areas to
• 20:21
  look at and you know we've got slightly different
• 20:24
  systems over in Wales and and over and
• 20:27
  up in Scotland as well and internationally there are
• 20:30
  different approaches so it's really
• 20:33
  what is it that I guess the government wants from it and they will say parents
• 20:38
  want it I'm never entirely convinced by that argument but what is it that government
• 20:43
  wants from this system of kind of accountability and measurement and that will
• 20:49
  make the difference with that relationship, I think. Mm-hmm.
• 20:53
  Yeah, certainly moving away from one word judgments, it definitely was the way
• 20:58
  that we had to go because people weren't looking beyond the one word judgments.
• 21:03
  You could make the argument, of course, that we can compare schools more,
• 21:08
  I don't know, in a bit more detail in terms of if my student is a particular
• 21:13
  student who may not be a high flyer but needs particular SEND support.
• 21:18
  Is there a school that is does well in
• 21:21
  terms of its inclusive teaching I don't know so
• 21:24
  it might be something that's a better tool for parents like
• 21:27
  you say we don't know the government will say that it is but
• 21:31
  you know that we know that the government will say
• 21:33
  something and then they'll say something else and then
• 21:36
  another government will come in and they'll say something completely different and that's
• 21:40
  the problem with education in this country always having
• 21:42
  been quite a political football and you know you end
• 21:46
  up being pushed from pillar to post trying to appease different
• 21:49
  things and actually a big conversation about
• 21:52
  what's education about what's effective education that
• 21:55
  kind of is cross-party and I know the select committee do some work on that
• 22:00
  but they're not really driving forward legislation and policy so but you know
• 22:05
  I know other countries where they've they've taken that approach have been quite
• 22:10
  successful in the past perhaps those successes haven't sustained in the same way.
• 22:15
  But, you know, thinking that you are moving towards whatever the flavour of
• 22:20
  the month is, depending on who's in government, isn't a comfortable position
• 22:23
  for schools to be in. No, absolutely not.
• 22:26
  I wanted to ask you, I did mention about Ofsted in maths, and obviously to some
• 22:32
  extent we do have Ofsted consultants, and that was one of the things I wanted to ask you both about.
• 22:39
  And I'll start with you, Yannick.
• 22:42
  What are your feelings my feelings sometimes with Ofsted
• 22:46
  consultants I mean I've worked with different
• 22:49
  consultants have worked with me obviously my
• 22:52
  experiences tend to lead like anyone my opinion they haven't always been the
• 22:57
  best I'm going back a long time when yeah somebody who was meant to be supporting
• 23:05
  me did everything but but going you know it goes back quite a long way.
• 23:09
  I also know that there's some excellent ex-Ofsted people out there doing brilliant
• 23:15
  work in terms of consultancy.
• 23:18
  And I'm certainly not wanting to have a go at anyone. But my feeling is more
• 23:22
  about specific Ofsted consultants working in maths or working in schools and.
• 23:29
  To advise schools, is that really the right, do you feel that's the right way
• 23:37
  to, what do you feel about that, Yannick? Do you think that that's fair, level playing field?
• 23:41
  It's been an incredibly long time that I've had to attend a training provided
• 23:47
  by my school with an ex-office inspector or a consultant.
• 23:50
  So a lot of schools don't tend to do that anymore.
• 23:53
  I mean, there's always been people in maths that employ people to improve standards.
• 23:56
  Now, you've always got to think, what kind of people
• 23:59
  are is usually young ambitious people who will actually improve results
• 24:03
  but at what cost and they will move up
• 24:06
  very quickly as well i mean i'm in two minds about this you can do a lot of
• 24:11
  things on the you know pretending that you improve standards it's uh improving
• 24:17
  standards very easy two easy words to make people do anything to change move
• 24:23
  things i mean and and you know when
• 24:25
  it does work, because there's always measures to improve standards.
• 24:29
  There's loads of ways to do this.
• 24:31
  I don't know. I mean, the only experience I've got of ex-of-state people is
• 24:37
  when we've had reviews, subject reviews, always led by people like that,
• 24:43
  usually on the request of the head, just as an excuse to make people redundant
• 24:49
  or to tell you that your subject was rubbish and you needed to change things.
• 24:53
  That's never been positive for me. There was no dialogue in there.
• 24:58
  People can observe and say, yeah, you're rubbish. And my experience and my colleagues'
• 25:01
  experience certainly has been exactly the same.
• 25:03
  It's never been. There was always an agenda to monitor a subject that maybe
• 25:08
  wasn't performing as well as others.
• 25:10
  Yeah, there were issues, but that was an easy way to say, all right,
• 25:14
  come in, pay you a couple of grants, tell you everything's rubbish.
• 25:17
  And then a couple of people will move and you start again.
• 25:23
  It doesn't help when it feels like there's an agenda from the word go,
• 25:27
  because obviously that skews people's opinion before they've even walked through the door.
• 25:31
  Why would you employ someone if there's no agenda as well? Why would you ask
• 25:35
  someone to come in if things go well? That's the issue as well.
• 25:38
  There's always an agenda. There's always a reason for someone to come in.
• 25:41
  I get a feeling, and you can maybe correct me on this in a minute,
• 25:44
  Zoe, that Ofsted generally don't want, or I might think, yeah,
• 25:48
  I'm probably thinking Ofsted, but certainly the union's guidance as well,
• 25:51
  is to not be involved in mocksteds,
• 25:55
  right, or similar.
• 25:57
  I mean, I don't know, but then mats still do reviews.
• 26:00
  They are still using maybe ex-Offsted inspectors or HMIs as a role in their mat.
• 26:11
  What's your feeling on that, Zoe, in terms of using those consultants?
• 26:16
  Well, for a start, you know, Offsted were always very, very clear that they
• 26:20
  didn't advise Moxed because this attempt to kind of replicate the experience
• 26:25
  and even doing a subject review.
• 26:27
  A subject review should be quite different.
• 26:30
  It might have some of the same activities, but it should be quite different
• 26:33
  to what the experience of an offset inspection is.
• 26:36
  Because under the old framework, what you were doing there was you were using
• 26:40
  those subjects to sample the quality of education. So you weren't going in and inspecting English.
• 26:45
  You were going in and English was one lens through which you considered what
• 26:49
  the quality of education was more broadly. it sounds all very depressing from
• 26:54
  Yannick's point of view and you know it makes me really sad and.
• 26:58
  I would be lying to say that I hadn't seen some of those kind of same approaches
• 27:03
  being used over the years.
• 27:06
  But, you know, I'm seeing that kind of less and less.
• 27:09
  I'm kind of on both sides as well, because obviously I'm a school improvement lead for a trust.
• 27:14
  And I go in and I work with people. And I think that's the key.
• 27:18
  I work with people to look at the areas that we're going to,
• 27:22
  you know, not for Ofsted, but the areas we want to improve for those young people.
• 27:27
  So today I was, a lot of my day was involved looking at careers and exploring
• 27:31
  the careers provision and what that meant for peoples within that community
• 27:35
  who are disadvantaged and pupils
• 27:37
  with SEND and what that provision looked like for all of those pupils.
• 27:43
  So you know i i certainly i wouldn't
• 27:46
  work in school improvement if it was a case of you you're kind
• 27:49
  of coming in and you're doing that and i know i've had pre-ofsted people
• 27:53
  that approached me and said can you come and do this mockstead
• 27:56
  with me and i was always really clear at that point i haven't had ofsted training
• 28:01
  so even if i go in i can i can come and support a subject review or an area
• 28:07
  review but what i can't do is replicate an ofsted experience nor do i want to
• 28:12
  So I don't think that's going to be helpful.
• 28:14
  We might have a coaching conversation around the things that you might talk about.
• 28:17
  And that's something that I would do now. But when I wasn't Ofsted trained,
• 28:21
  I was always very, very clear about that.
• 28:23
  In terms of consultants coming in, obviously, if you are somebody who's working with Ofsted as an OI.
• 28:30
  You shouldn't be then sharing that kind of, you know, this is something that
• 28:35
  Ofsted have shared with me.
• 28:37
  But things have shifted quite a lot because there's this increased transparency.
• 28:42
  They've put out all of their training that's given to inspectors.
• 28:45
  Now, that's not the same as sitting there together and discussing it.
• 28:49
  It's a video of what that training looks like.
• 28:52
  And it's the same messages, an attempt to
• 28:55
  kind of level that playing field to increase that transparency and
• 28:59
  everyone can use that in order to look
• 29:03
  at it going in and giving advice
• 29:06
  on something though if you are an ex-inspector on
• 29:10
  a framework you haven't experienced working with
• 29:14
  a team who might not be officer trained or trying
• 29:17
  to advise on something you haven't perhaps seen
• 29:21
  on either side of inspection I think is
• 29:24
  not useful you know I'll be quite blunt
• 29:27
  I think it probably helps embed
• 29:30
  myths which don't need you know if people are worried about something they will
• 29:34
  latch on to things and there's something at the moment that that's there's a
• 29:37
  lot of that on the internet around handwriting and I can see already some myths
• 29:43
  coming out around what Ofsted might be looking at for handwriting and what this
• 29:48
  might mean for our context.
• 29:49
  And and this is that kind of problem that's there
• 29:52
  and you know I've heard stories of somebody
• 29:55
  who's gone in who's been Ofsted trained or has been
• 29:58
  an ex-inspector and I've
• 30:01
  heard some of the things that the school's been told and it's taken
• 30:04
  them off in a completely the wrong direction and they've not
• 30:07
  been happy with it and I've not been happy with it and then we've had to unpick
• 30:11
  and work back and think about why so I think we have to be really careful and
• 30:16
  leaders will make decisions about who they want to bring in and I hope that
• 30:20
  they're not kind of bringing them in with an agenda to get people out and that
• 30:23
  kind of thing that you were talking about there Yannick,
• 30:26
  But leaders obviously will make the decision that any kind of consultancy,
• 30:29
  whether it's Ofsted style consultancy or whether it's something for subject
• 30:34
  or something for kind of teaching and learning, you've got to really be sure of quality.
• 30:39
  And I worry a little bit about some of that quality when it comes to Ofsted style consultancy.
• 30:46
  Yeah, I've certainly had experience of people
• 30:49
  coming in and making judgments based
• 30:54
  on what doesn't seem like a great deal of
• 30:56
  evidence and then a narrative being
• 31:00
  created which then the school invests a
• 31:02
  lot of time and energy and mental health stresses on those staff and yeah like
• 31:09
  you say it's I do that's something that I do think if it's someone who I don't
• 31:15
  know who taught if you've got an ex-offset inspector it could be someone who
• 31:19
  hasn't taught for 20 years,
• 31:21
  hasn't taught post-Covid, it's a completely different landscape to what it used to be.
• 31:28
  They may not be, if they work in a trust, there may be several schools in the
• 31:33
  trust that have completely different contexts that they may not fully appreciate. I don't know.
• 31:40
  And what does Exos said mean? Because that can mean
• 31:43
  actually you were inspecting under three
• 31:46
  frameworks ago so you had some experience
• 31:49
  of being you know an inspector or hmi but
• 31:53
  that was 10 years ago and since then education's moved on and the frameworks
• 31:58
  have moved on and also thinking has moved on and so actually you know is this
• 32:02
  the quality that you want and so i think it's always just got to be that caution
• 32:06
  about you know who are we using but i'd say that about any kind of consultancy really,
• 32:11
  What I never understand is the lack of confidence of leaders to make decisions
• 32:17
  for their own school and their own students.
• 32:20
  I mean, I'm not a school leader, obviously. I'm a leader of a department.
• 32:23
  But I make my own decisions for my department because that's what I want to see.
• 32:28
  I see a lot of things. I pick what I like.
• 32:31
  I pick what I want to do. but i wouldn't i don't understand the the need to
• 32:36
  reassure myself by bringing people in and and.
• 32:41
  Naturally following what they are saying i
• 32:44
  mean sometimes as you said you know like what advice what what kind of people
• 32:49
  say to you and then it's all right they've said this so we need to do that well
• 32:53
  i don't know that aren't you the leader for you for your school to to decide
• 32:57
  i mean a leader in a school should know the teacher they should be around seeing what's going on,
• 33:02
  make decisions based on what they see, not what they hear from someone who comes in school.
• 33:07
  You think, wow, I'm always surprised that SLT you never see,
• 33:12
  and then they get some people to advise them, but they should know what's going on on the ground.
• 33:17
  I wonder whether, Yannick, that comes from top-down pressure on the headteacher,
• 33:22
  because we've moved away from a headteacher always being at the top of the establishment,
• 33:29
  haven't we often that head teacher they're under pressure from Ofsted but I
• 33:33
  I get the feeling head teachers can be put under considerable pressure by their
• 33:37
  trust as well and pressure to move in a particular direction I don't know so
• 33:42
  I don't know whether that's why and I've I've known very strong head teachers who I think are superb.
• 33:49
  Being quite highly influenced by people above
• 33:52
  them and you're right the head teacher is in the best position
• 33:55
  to know their context aren't they so i don't
• 33:58
  know that is an interesting one so why do they need that second why
• 34:02
  do they need that second opinion yeah you
• 34:05
  know i you know i would say this i think there's
• 34:07
  something quite healthy about getting that kind
• 34:10
  of opinion that comes from someone who's stepped back from
• 34:13
  that that doesn't mean they don't know the context or want to understand
• 34:16
  the context but again it's it's that difference between
• 34:19
  being done to and done with and
• 34:22
  working with a leader who's got a lot of noise
• 34:25
  might be getting information that's coming from one side of.
• 34:28
  The trust might be getting information because they've seen what's happening
• 34:31
  on the news or they've they've gone on social media and
• 34:34
  there's there's everyone talking there they've got
• 34:37
  all the information that they've got in front
• 34:39
  of them about their school and actually sitting
• 34:43
  down having a conversation with someone who maybe is a little
• 34:45
  stepped back from it can help cut through some
• 34:49
  of that noise not every leader would need that great SLT
• 34:52
  will do that together with each other but then you've
• 34:55
  of course got within an SLT you might have
• 34:58
  people of different experiences you've then got the small
• 35:01
  schools to consider as well and you know having someone
• 35:03
  come in who will support them through those conversations because
• 35:07
  actually what they've got is only two people on leadership
• 35:10
  and three teachers in the school including them that
• 35:13
  might be quite a healthy thing for them to do so I think
• 35:16
  it's you know they're a tool and it's how you use
• 35:19
  that tool and it's what you do you know I always say when I'll
• 35:22
  send in kind of a bit of a report when I've visited a school if I'm looking
• 35:27
  at a key area it's always up to the head what they do with that information
• 35:31
  it's always up to the head of department if I'm feeding back to them it's up
• 35:35
  to them what they do with it I can work with them to help them to do what they
• 35:39
  want to do with it as well but it's not my school.
• 35:42
  So although it's my trust and I'm working, you know, the school is the trust
• 35:47
  and the trust is the school and we work very closely, it's not my remit to do
• 35:51
  that, to say, right, that head teacher, you've got to do this,
• 35:54
  because they need to filter it.
• 35:57
  I'm glad you've said that. I just get a feeling some trusts aren't doing it
• 36:02
  like that, Zoe. I don't know.
• 36:04
  I mean, I can't. We have a lovely trust. Anyone who's looking for a role in
• 36:08
  a trust, we have amazing.
• 36:09
  And I mean that genuinely. I looked really sarky there, but we are.
• 36:15
  I was trying to find out where you're based, which is, I think you're up north, aren't you?
• 36:19
  I am. I'm in the northwest and a lot of our schools are based kind of Blackburn,
• 36:24
  Burnley, but we go out towards Manchester and Wigan area as well. Oh, fab.
• 36:33
  Before we move on, I just want to mention again to everyone listening,
• 36:37
  our sponsors who are Hachette Learning.
• 36:40
  And this show is brought to you in partnership with them. Hachette Learning,
• 36:44
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• 36:48
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• 36:50
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• 36:54
  you can do so by visiting www.hachettelearning.com and having a look at their
• 37:00
  books and their titles on there.
• 37:03
  I also want to mention guys TTR Connect
• 37:07
  if I can get it up on my screen again and say
• 37:10
  this properly Teachers Talk Connect 2026 is
• 37:14
  coming up fairly soon I think in
• 37:17
  about six or seven weeks I just said six seven
• 37:20
  for anyone out there who knows about that um we'll do
• 37:23
  the thing so six or seven weeks Teachers Talk
• 37:26
  Connect is back which is our annual CPD and networking
• 37:30
  extravaganza join the TTR team on
• 37:32
  Saturday the 14th of March in Manchester tickets are
• 37:35
  free what are you waiting for head over to ttradio.org slash connect 2026 so
• 37:42
  that is a free event that you can get in all educators can get involved with
• 37:46
  and it'd be great to see some people there and I'm hoping to make my way which
• 37:50
  is sort of uh not far from your neck of the woods really Zoe by the sound of it.
• 37:55
  So yeah I've never been to be
• 37:57
  honest I've never been to Manchester or Liverpool it's a I've never been.
• 38:04
  Liverpool in particular, very close to my heart. Love it.
• 38:06
  I was kind of convinced my other half that she might like a day out there,
• 38:10
  which would give me an excuse to spend that weekend there. But yeah, I'm working on that.
• 38:15
  But yeah, so we've said quite a bit about Ofsted. I know you need to get going, Zoe.
• 38:19
  I'm not trying to get rid of you in any way, shape or form, but do let me know
• 38:23
  when you need to disappear.
• 38:25
  Now seems like a perfect break. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you.
• 38:29
  Thanks so much for inviting me.
• 38:31
  Bye. Bye. Bye. Have a good evening. See you later.
• 38:36
  Oh, lovely. Right. It was really interesting talking to Zoe there,
• 38:39
  getting a bit of insight.
• 38:41
  So it's Yannick and myself for the rest of it.
• 38:45
  Now, the other big one, the other big juicy one is this social media ban, isn't it?
• 38:52
  I was just wondering, I don't really know where I'm not in one camp or the other
• 38:57
  really yet. I don't know.
• 38:58
  I'm just going to say, I'll give you some time to think what you're going to
• 39:01
  say about that, Yannick, because what I've seen online is the two opposing views.
• 39:07
  First of all, there was an article I saw in Tez by a teacher,
• 39:11
  secondary teacher, Simon Lightman, his name is, and he's made some points about
• 39:15
  the social media ban not being a good thing.
• 39:18
  He said you'd still have to deal with social media issues even if it were banned
• 39:23
  so it wouldn't completely get rid of the issues it may create the appearance
• 39:27
  of safety while ignoring deeper problems he also thinks that schools should
• 39:33
  have a role in risk management and teaching,
• 39:36
  children about you know online risks and
• 39:39
  as if we didn't do that yeah as
• 39:43
  if we don't every year from year 7 to year 11 actually i'm
• 39:46
  still doing it in a year 12 tutorial so exactly that i mean what are we saying
• 39:52
  here is that yeah it's okay so there is that so oh let's not do it because it's
• 39:57
  not it's not going to get rid of the problems no it's not but it's a start isn't
• 40:00
  it that's what we're talking about it's a start yeah yeah it's of course it's
• 40:04
  not going to be perfect and it's not.
• 40:06
  You know you can you can say that with absolutely everything
• 40:10
  oh let's let's not do it because it's not gonna get rid
• 40:13
  of the problem anything you know so which
• 40:16
  which way are you leaning on it would you say yannick you leaning towards the
• 40:20
  ban do you know like you it's hard we work in schools of course when you work
• 40:24
  in schools you're a lot more measured aren't you yeah you we don't have a view
• 40:28
  from outside we've got a view from inside you know good feeling is yeah absolutely yeah,
• 40:34
  let's do it i think because you can see it as a parent as a teacher phones phones
• 40:40
  are nothing but of distraction. I say that.
• 40:44
  And then we use phones in lessons sometimes to do some blue cat at the end of
• 40:50
  the lesson. So that's great.
• 40:52
  And of course, if they don't have that, I can't do that, which is a very nice,
• 40:56
  easy activity for me to end up a lesson with.
• 40:58
  So it's not all negative, but saying that a blue cat is only a game,
• 41:03
  you know, so there's not necessarily people who say there's not necessarily
• 41:07
  any, you know, educational value in there.
• 41:09
  Although I can argue that, you know, we actually sing all the words in a fun context.
• 41:15
  So it's not wasted time either.
• 41:18
  I don't think it is. I mean, I do like a book at quiz. I use the school laptops.
• 41:23
  I book them last 10 or 15, usually 15 minutes by the time they're fired up.
• 41:28
  I used to have work at a school where there was a set of iPads and they were
• 41:31
  excellent. You can just turn them on and you'd be off.
• 41:34
  There'd be no dead time. At the moment, the issue is getting them logged on
• 41:36
  and issues like that signed in. But yeah, I like a Blukit.
• 41:40
  The kids like a Blukit. It's a bit different.
• 41:43
  Sometimes they'll say, sir, can we do one that's not about science?
• 41:45
  And I'm like, no, it's a science lesson.
• 41:49
  Yeah. Yeah. So no, no, I'm not. I'm already taking a risk here.
• 41:55
  If someone comes in and sees me playing on the computer, you know.
• 41:58
  You've already won this lesson. Yeah. You've already won this lesson.
• 42:01
  Yeah. I've already stuck my neck out for you, kid, you know.
• 42:05
  Meet me in the middle but yeah yeah so it
• 42:08
  can cut both ways yeah it's the
• 42:13
  fact that it looks like it's something from what
• 42:15
  i hear that that's going to be more widespread
• 42:19
  you know it's already happened in australia presumably
• 42:23
  they've looked at statistics i've not really drilled down
• 42:26
  much into that and how it's gone in australia put
• 42:29
  it like this when when there was a ban on smoking did that
• 42:32
  stop people from smoking no but it was a much better
• 42:35
  life after that same thing exactly the
• 42:38
  same thing to me you know like from one day to the next people couldn't smoke
• 42:41
  in restaurants in nightclubs people still could still
• 42:44
  smoke but you know so social media is the same thing i think it just it just
• 42:49
  makes things easier maybe to manage and to and to keep in check i mean you you're
• 42:54
  right that i mean we need to deal with the issue of social media for young people
• 43:00
  is the fact that they get into all sorts of, yeah,
• 43:03
  bullying and harassment and mental health.
• 43:06
  So, yeah, we need to tackle that as well.
• 43:08
  And we are, I think, the schools are tackling all these issues in,
• 43:13
  you know, PSHE or whatever you call it about mental health risks of,
• 43:18
  I mean, I think, yeah, a phone doesn't have its place in a school.
• 43:22
  That would make things easier on a lot of levels. Yeah.
• 43:28
  Definitely. I mean, we know that there can be some positives.
• 43:31
  I've got some things here.
• 43:33
  I'd looked a little bit and used some AI just to sort of summarize some things.
• 43:37
  But they're saying it's UK doctors report growing evidence of harm.
• 43:42
  What's it saying? It's anxiety, depression, poor sleep, high rates of cyberbullying,
• 43:48
  you know, exposed to harmful content, bullying, inappropriate material.
• 43:53
  So, yeah, even limiting development, they're saying potentially.
• 43:58
  So when you actually read the list of the reasons for doing it,
• 44:03
  there are some more compelling arguments there, I would say.
• 44:06
  The only thing that did surprise me, because we have this thing at the moment
• 44:12
  in our school, which is really good, it's called Votes for Schools.
• 44:14
  I don't know if you've heard of it.
• 44:16
  But there's a topical question that the students have to think about,
• 44:22
  like does global politics affect me you
• 44:25
  know which you know that that was the first one which for a kid you know i'm
• 44:29
  trying to think when i was a kid i probably would have thought what has nothing
• 44:31
  to do with me but then obviously this one has been about the social media ban
• 44:35
  but something that came up out of that that interested me was the nspcc childnet
• 44:41
  and the molly rose foundation,
• 44:44
  say social media ban would be wrong social media ban for under 16s would be
• 44:49
  wrong because it creates a false sense of safety so we've got that argument
• 44:53
  again drives children into more dangerous spaces.
• 44:56
  Remove support networks let's talk tech companies
• 44:59
  avoid responsibility fails to i
• 45:02
  mean i don't think that's a strong argument because tech companies are going
• 45:07
  to try and avoid some responsibility aren't they because they want they want
• 45:10
  those clicks and and you know they want that fit it says fails to fix harmful
• 45:15
  algorithms and design choices choices creates a risky cliff edge some I'm saying when they get to 16,
• 45:22
  there's going to be this cliff edge where they've not been allowed social media
• 45:27
  and then suddenly everybody –.
• 45:30
  At a certain age, at that age of 16, they can suddenly start accessing that social media.
• 45:37
  I mean, for me personally, I am leaning towards, because, you know,
• 45:42
  as teachers, wellbeing has got to be central.
• 45:47
  Child protection has got to trump everything, hasn't it?
• 45:51
  And I think there are some arguments.
• 45:53
  I mean, I saw somebody on Twitter had put some comments on, and I don't know
• 45:59
  this person, But I think they were a teacher or a head teacher.
• 46:01
  So someone who knows schools, but they said that their child was extremely anxious
• 46:08
  to the point that they needed.
• 46:10
  They felt that they needed that at some point in the day, that phone just for
• 46:15
  that little bit of reassurance from their mum or dad or whatever.
• 46:19
  And it made me think, well, maybe there will need to be dispensation in some extreme cases.
• 46:27
  That's extreme cases. I mean, having to ring your parents during the day when you're at school.
• 46:33
  Again, that's not necessarily usual, is it? It's very unusual.
• 46:39
  It is unusual. And obviously, you know, the other thing is, if you're doing
• 46:43
  that, you could have a brick, You could have what we call a brick,
• 46:46
  an old phone that doesn't have all of the apps on it, but you've still got that contact.
• 46:51
  So there are ways around it. If for parents who are going to say it's a safety thing.
• 46:57
  I mean, you've always got to be careful, not make an exception,
• 47:00
  like a reason for not having something because people are very, very good at doing that.
• 47:05
  Oh, no, it doesn't work because my son, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, okay.
• 47:10
  Well, you know, I don't like the ban on smoking because I smoke.
• 47:13
  So my son smokes so uh that's not good for him because he needs to smoke,
• 47:18
  uh you know yeah i mean i'm exaggerating there
• 47:20
  obviously but you know we always make we
• 47:23
  always make exceptions depending on our our
• 47:27
  own situation which is not the way things work
• 47:30
  you know there's a law and then yeah quite
• 47:33
  rightly we should be able to make exceptions and you
• 47:37
  know change things depending on people's situation but i think we are
• 47:40
  very good at that schools as well i think we are do you
• 47:43
  know you know think as you as a teacher that
• 47:46
  the exceptions you make it someone's got a car the time
• 47:49
  time out card someone's got a toilet pass someone's got
• 47:51
  we know our students we we've got rules that they can be quite strict but we've
• 47:56
  also got loads of ways that oh yeah be careful about him because this and him
• 48:01
  and you know before i've got classes where i've got 10 students who've got we
• 48:05
  don't follow the rules because and that's great, and I'm aware of that, and that's fine.
• 48:10
  It's no toilet in my lessons. However, people have got passes,
• 48:15
  people have, yeah, of course, that's fine.
• 48:18
  You know, you can't do anything in my classroom, but I know you've got an issue
• 48:22
  with that. I'm careful. I'm aware.
• 48:25
  But I need to have a blanket rule for everybody because if not,
• 48:28
  everybody does whatever they want, you know.
• 48:31
  Yeah, it's difficult. I do think schools, you know, from my experience,
• 48:36
  schools try extremely hard to know the students, to understand their needs,
• 48:42
  to cater for their needs, you know, being inclusive.
• 48:46
  I do think we try very very hard I do
• 48:50
  think you know sometimes we maybe need to
• 48:53
  listen a bit better to parents but it needs to
• 48:55
  be it needs to be a partnership where the
• 48:59
  people are people are listening to each other
• 49:02
  and working together for the best interests of
• 49:06
  students you know so yeah I
• 49:10
  get what you're saying there but I mean they've my understanding is
• 49:12
  in Australia the band doesn't cover whatsapp for
• 49:16
  example so they can they you can
• 49:19
  still have contact with people without social media i mean the other side of
• 49:24
  it of course is bridget phillipson has written to every school saying make sure
• 49:28
  students never use phones i think i've not i've seen that as well so which i mean we.
• 49:37
  Isn't a new thing really most most schools are phone free yeah,
• 49:42
  I think there are more schools now taking phones in.
• 49:46
  I think I saw somewhere, you know, the pouches. I don't know much about these
• 49:50
  pouches, but I saw somewhere that there was a, for adults, it was an adult thing
• 49:56
  where they would do, where they would go into like a music event,
• 50:02
  and they had to put their phones in these pouches and they released automatically at a certain time.
• 50:07
  So they physically couldn't get their phone out until the
• 50:11
  pouch released and then and i didn't know that thing
• 50:14
  i didn't know that existed but i don't know
• 50:17
  whether some schools are doing that you know yeah we
• 50:20
  we say about the kids but adults are as bad you know how many
• 50:23
  times have i been in concert i mean one where i was in you know like classical
• 50:27
  music concert that people at the front phones rang and i mean how embarrassing
• 50:32
  appalling for an adult to be in that situation yeah it's pretty shocking isn't
• 50:38
  it you know i I haven't had kids whose mobiles I've run in my lessons.
• 50:42
  So in a way, she's a lot worse than that. But it wasn't hugely embarrassing. I mean, come on.
• 50:50
  Some adults have no more control than the kids we teach. That's for sure.
• 50:56
  No, they really don't. You see people pushing their children in buggies with the phone.
• 51:00
  You see people in queues in traffic with their phone in their hand,
• 51:04
  even though I can't believe people still do that.
• 51:07
  I know, I know. And I just literally, I can't believe why they're doing it and
• 51:10
  why they need to do it. But there you go.
• 51:12
  So like you say, it's that ingrained thing. I don't know.
• 51:16
  Sometimes parents might need more winning over than their children. I don't know.
• 51:21
  It's something that's going to rumble on. It'll be very interesting to see what the government do.
• 51:26
  Because I mean, this government generally, whether you are...
• 51:32
  On their side or not they do seem to
• 51:36
  like really be trying not to annoy people but managing
• 51:39
  to annoy people so whatever they do is going
• 51:41
  to be wrong that's all that already whatever they
• 51:44
  do will definitely be wrong um but if you know
• 51:47
  with us the thing is whatever you know we motivate it but we'd go with it because
• 51:51
  we have to anyway so yeah we have to yeah absolutely we have to just run with
• 51:55
  it just see what they do but it will be interesting i do think yeah all all
• 52:01
  the sort of evidence and it does point to the band being the way forward.
• 52:07
  But yeah, we'll see how that goes. We're coming into 54 minutes of the show.
• 52:15
  The only other thing that I had on, and we've only got like five minutes for
• 52:19
  it, we can obviously run over a little bit.
• 52:20
  I think there was a comment there on the chat somewhere.
• 52:24
  Yeah, we've had a couple of comments on the chat. I don't know if they're ones
• 52:28
  that I want to read now because they're talking about... Slightly...
• 52:32
  Of track on what we're talking, but that would be an interesting one to talk about.
• 52:36
  I won't put it on the screen, but I'll just say that they're obviously quite
• 52:40
  focused on SEN and EHCPs.
• 52:44
  They'd like to speak about, the current regulated qualification framework isn't
• 52:51
  designed or structured for learners with SEN or EHCP needs, has been the case for over a decade.
• 52:57
  The only way to fix the statutory gap is for legislation to be changed.
• 53:00
  Just wondering if you'd be willing to comment or discuss so i might get in touch
• 53:04
  with that person so thank you lauren for those comments you've put in maybe
• 53:11
  i'll get in touch with you and we'll have a bit of a better chat about that
• 53:14
  i wasn't i wasn't ignoring you deliberately to be.
• 53:20
  That we can really talk about. It's not something that I don't know if Yannick
• 53:25
  and I, something that we can really get into at this point.
• 53:29
  But yeah, thank you for that one. And I'll probably get back to you about that one.
• 53:34
  Yeah, so the other thing I had was, I've got quite an interesting question to ask you, Yannick.
• 53:39
  What do you think of this argument over trads?
• 53:43
  If someone, if you're on Twitter X,
• 53:49
  there seems to be it's always been very factional and
• 53:52
  we had a little bit of a chat off air sort of Zoe Yannick and
• 53:55
  myself and it and we were sort of lamenting this fact that it is very factional
• 54:00
  there is a lot of flag waving that goes on if you uh criticize someone what
• 54:06
  tends to happen is the people who generally agree with that person will then
• 54:11
  come out to defend that person Ah, yes, of course.
• 54:17
  My point is, this has been something that's been sort of running on.
• 54:22
  Trad versus progs, right?
• 54:24
  People come on and say, oh, you're a trad. You shouldn't have him on.
• 54:27
  You shouldn't be platforming him. He's a trad.
• 54:29
  He only cares about bossing kids around.
• 54:33
  And one of the comments, and I won't say who it's from because I've deliberately
• 54:37
  not mentioned any names in this show.
• 54:39
  I mean, I could because it's out in the public domain. But there was a comment
• 54:43
  put out there along the lines of relationships, right?
• 54:48
  And that's another word. If you say you've got to have good relationships in
• 54:53
  school, there's a meltdown.
• 54:54
  Everyone's like, oh, what's that? What are relationships?
• 54:58
  What does that mean? Does that mean you're just letting them get away with everything?
• 55:01
  You're being their mate. You're calling them. You're right, mate.
• 55:03
  And I don't think that's what it means necessarily.
• 55:07
  But the comment that I saw that really made me, what I thought was interesting
• 55:12
  is the fact that this person was likening having good relationships to like
• 55:16
  having, you know, having a cult or,
• 55:20
  So it's not classroom management, it's leading a cult if you are super focused
• 55:26
  on it. What do you think that person meant, Yannick?
• 55:29
  Yes, I'm reading it and I'm not exactly sure actually what it means, to be honest.
• 55:34
  I'm not quite sure what it actually means.
• 55:38
  So if people won't do what you say because of your good relationship with them, yeah, that's true.
• 55:43
  So there is something else for people to do what you want.
• 55:48
  It's not because of your good relationship it's because it's because of what
• 55:51
  i know it's because of your status because of your routines because you are
• 55:56
  leading is that is that what it means,
• 55:59
  and if it he's saying that if
• 56:02
  if people are doing what you
• 56:05
  want because you have good relationship that it's basically a
• 56:08
  cult i'm not quite sure what that even means to be honest
• 56:11
  so i'm not i'm not and i
• 56:14
  don't want to take that out of context because obviously a lot of
• 56:17
  people are going to take it out of context but my point is
• 56:20
  you need and I think most teachers know that you
• 56:23
  need a mixture of all of those things if I go in
• 56:26
  just with rules and I'm like straight down the line and I
• 56:29
  just I'm mechanically going through my lesson not really chatting to the students
• 56:34
  ever not really asking about their day and their weekend and their football
• 56:38
  team and all that you know then I I don't I think I'd lose something of myself
• 56:44
  if I did it like that So I think you obviously need a bit of both.
• 56:48
  Maybe there are people out there who think you can just be nice to young people
• 56:54
  and they will do what you want.
• 56:57
  I mean, I think what it means is that you are not managing a classroom out of
• 57:02
  good relationship, which I agree.
• 57:05
  Good relationship is not what makes you manage a classroom.
• 57:10
  No. The foundation has to be. Sorry, Yannick. Yeah?
• 57:16
  Yeah, the foundation has to be, yeah, the expectations are clear.
• 57:20
  There is some consequence to behavior.
• 57:25
  And yeah, I don't know. I mean, you could absolutely manage a classroom without
• 57:31
  good relationship, as in you come, you do your job, you teach students.
• 57:37
  Yeah, you can. I don't think the good relationship is the foundation of managing
• 57:41
  a classroom, which I tend to agree.
• 57:43
  But, of course, that is, again, I find that very polarizing because,
• 57:48
  of course, I'm not in this job not to have good relationship with the students.
• 57:52
  Of course, it would be a horrible job.
• 57:54
  I'm a university in this job because I like kids. So, of course,
• 57:59
  I tend to be, I would say, I tend to be strict, have rules.
• 58:06
  But I'm also, I hope so, I'm also good fun to be with in a classroom because I'm fun.
• 58:12
  I like the relationship. Of course, I'm not only here to teach.
• 58:17
  I don't spend 60 minutes where there's no wasted time other than learning because
• 58:23
  I find that also a little bit, you know.
• 58:26
  Or in my lesson, out of 60 minutes, and I'm proud of this, 59 minutes will be hard learning. Okay.
• 58:34
  Yeah, I don't like that. yeah i think
• 58:37
  i've been we bow
• 58:40
  down to you and your efficient use of learning time i'm
• 58:44
  the best yeah i remember guru
• 58:47
  yeah yeah yeah i i agree with
• 58:50
  that i i don't i've never really liked that teach
• 58:53
  to the bell and everything else and the do now and and all
• 58:56
  that and i understand why that does help and we
• 58:59
  do obviously want to use the time wisely we we
• 59:02
  we do want to not sell students short in
• 59:05
  terms of their opportunities um but yeah
• 59:08
  they do i've i find in students want
• 59:12
  just for you to i don't know if you just show them a bit of kindness a bit of
• 59:17
  attention from time to time but then i work it it depends on the context more
• 59:22
  than from time to time tony don't you think yeah all the most of the time they
• 59:28
  want a bit of kindness they just want a little bit.
• 59:31
  I don't know. It makes a really big difference.
• 59:34
  Yeah, I saw on...
• 59:36
  I can't remember which show. I watched a little clip of a show on here the other
• 59:39
  day. I don't know who it was.
• 59:42
  I don't know who it was who was running the show, doing the TTR show.
• 59:45
  But I just saw a little clip and they were saying that you should spend...
• 59:50
  In an ideal world two minutes talking to
• 59:53
  a student not about learning just talking
• 59:56
  to them about you know how was their weekend or something like
• 59:59
  that and something so small that they're
• 1:00:03
  arguing makes an enormous difference to them
• 1:00:06
  so I think yeah you do need that
• 1:00:09
  I think what the trap I've fell into in the
• 1:00:12
  past is being a bit not sarcastic
• 1:00:16
  but bantering them a bit that kids
• 1:00:19
  don't want to banter from their teacher they they
• 1:00:23
  get it i think it's a problem banter it's
• 1:00:26
  a massive problem in my school because and i
• 1:00:29
  don't know whether it's because the students have
• 1:00:32
  the model they're following a role model where we take the mickey and it's an
• 1:00:37
  inherently british thing maybe that what you know we do you know what i'm saying
• 1:00:42
  so yeah and i don't know whether some parents maybe make the mistake of being
• 1:00:48
  like that, which is fine, you know, with their mates and everything else.
• 1:00:51
  But I don't know, sometimes the kids pick up on that and then they start to
• 1:00:55
  do that. And then they start to do it to the teacher.
• 1:00:58
  And some teachers fall into the trap of thinking that they should give it back.
• 1:01:02
  And I've found actually that really does not work.
• 1:01:06
  And sometimes they'll be giving it to you and you think, oh,
• 1:01:08
  I'm going to give some back. And actually, you really, my advice is definitely don't.
• 1:01:13
  You see, that is not good relationship to me.
• 1:01:16
  That is not a good relationship because you, they need, you,
• 1:01:20
  you know, you're, you're, you're in charge there and, and you need to have that respect.
• 1:01:25
  And it's, it's a hard balance, isn't it? It's, it's, it is difficult.
• 1:01:30
  It is. It is really difficult because you, yeah, it's very easy to go,
• 1:01:36
  to go one way or another. I'm,
• 1:01:39
  really quite tough on on the set i
• 1:01:42
  teach at the moment a bottom so a lower ability i'm not
• 1:01:44
  allowed to say bottom set a lower ability group right
• 1:01:48
  lower retaining group and i'm very tough on them and i'm picking up on on the
• 1:01:53
  little things and trying to stop them spiraling and and sometimes i do feel
• 1:01:58
  like i'm going a bit too far that way but i think it's better to go more that
• 1:02:01
  way than towards the relationship so i think what frustrates me about relationships
• 1:02:05
  is when people get annoyed when they hear it,
• 1:02:07
  I don't think anyone really is saying I can run my classroom purely on good relationships.
• 1:02:15
  I don't think anyone who is an experienced teacher would think that that's something
• 1:02:21
  that you can do successfully.
• 1:02:26
  No, I agree. I mean, I would love to see that.
• 1:02:31
  And if that was the case, everybody would do it as well.
• 1:02:34
  You know, we know what it's like to run a class of 30 people.
• 1:02:40
  It's, you know, 30 students in a classroom. if you don't do it I don't think
• 1:02:46
  you've got any idea of what it's like even a nice class I've got I've got a
• 1:02:50
  year 9 French said there's 32 kids they are gorgeous but still you've got to manage that,
• 1:02:59
  it's very easy for things to go you know to fall apart and,
• 1:03:04
  you know 32 students.
• 1:03:08
  That you've got to teach for you know two hours a week.
• 1:03:13
  It's it's hard work there's nothing harder than being in a classroom and even nice classes,
• 1:03:19
  you've got to plan you've got to run your activities you've got to to monitor
• 1:03:23
  manage the change of activities all that is uh it's hard work enjoyable highly
• 1:03:31
  enjoyable when you've got a nice class but god you need the energy to do this
• 1:03:35
  especially if you want to make it a little bit exciting,
• 1:03:39
  you know, when you're going to do some stuff that's noisy, that's, well,
• 1:03:44
  that's noisy, or stuff that is not noisy.
• 1:03:46
  So, you know, either way, you've got to,
• 1:03:49
  Yeah, and noisy doesn't necessarily mean they're not learning, they're not engaging.
• 1:03:54
  You know, little things like, okay, we're going to do an activity and then at
• 1:03:58
  the end of the activity, you've got a countdown, like three, two, one, right?
• 1:04:03
  Anybody who's not back in their seat within that time will get a consequence.
• 1:04:07
  But that seems harsh. But at the same time, if you don't do that,
• 1:04:10
  you'll have 10 kids not back in their seats.
• 1:04:11
  You'll waste another 30 seconds. it's all about i
• 1:04:14
  think people don't see the aspect of managing uh
• 1:04:17
  you know why is it that when you go to a to a to
• 1:04:20
  a play well people have got to be in their seats at the time
• 1:04:24
  and still actually you know to back to some people some people aren't even they're
• 1:04:28
  paying adults so imagine what what that translates to in a class of 30 who have
• 1:04:34
  some of them don't want to be here and i think there's expectations and there
• 1:04:39
  are increased numbers of students you know post pandemic,
• 1:04:42
  who people are saying they can't do that, they can't cope with that.
• 1:04:47
  There's always been students who've really struggled in that environment,
• 1:04:51
  but it seems to be that there's more and more now really struggling.
• 1:04:55
  And yeah, it's difficult, that one. It's difficult.
• 1:04:58
  So it'd be interesting maybe to do a show in the future, just thinking,
• 1:05:02
  talking about this trad thing, because I'm interested in this idea that some
• 1:05:07
  teachers are seen as trads.
• 1:05:10
  Progs and trads. And I don't think it really works like that.
• 1:05:14
  I think we all need an element of trad in terms of very clear rules and consequence,
• 1:05:20
  because otherwise I don't think anyone's ever going to get anywhere.
• 1:05:24
  So it's just a very unhelpful label that I find pops up all the time.
• 1:05:30
  People are associated with it, certain people, big names.
• 1:05:34
  I won't mention them now, but I'm sure you can think of some names who would
• 1:05:37
  be associated with the traditional consequence to bad behavior,
• 1:05:44
  detention, internal seclusion, and so on.
• 1:05:49
  People do the same, in a way, when you express an idea to put you in a box of,
• 1:05:53
  oh, you're Labour or you're Conservative.
• 1:05:56
  In a way, in America, that was a lot more blurred between the Democrats and
• 1:06:01
  the Republicans, where you can have some of the same ideas and you end up voting
• 1:06:06
  for the people sometimes rather than the political party.
• 1:06:09
  But yeah, you're absolutely right. Sometimes it's not helpful.
• 1:06:12
  And in a way, it kind of quashes the discussion as well because then you put
• 1:06:16
  you in a box and then, oh, game over.
• 1:06:18
  All right. Yeah, then that person.
• 1:06:22
  And that's been interesting, sort of rebuilding my account on X because obviously
• 1:06:26
  I can be a little bit more selective now.
• 1:06:29
  It's interesting seeing accounts
• 1:06:31
  that I've either blocked or they've blocked me in the past. Yes, yes.
• 1:06:35
  And yeah, it's interesting. And it's great because you're right.
• 1:06:39
  You know, there's nothing worse than being in your little echo chamber and only
• 1:06:44
  seeing the people that are in the same category, as you think like you or that
• 1:06:51
  you agree with all the time. It's not healthy.
• 1:06:54
  But a lot of people do that, I think, though.
• 1:06:57
  I just saw that Tom put a couple more comments in, but I'd missed them off.
• 1:07:01
  He said, we don't have time for that.
• 1:07:03
  I'm not sure what he meant when he said, we don't have time for that.
• 1:07:07
  And I think a lot of teachers do that anyway. So I think, you know,
• 1:07:12
  yeah. He's right though, he's right.
• 1:07:15
  Yeah, we'll just say he's right.
• 1:07:18
  It's something that will rumble on and on, isn't it? This argument,
• 1:07:22
  how strict should you be?
• 1:07:24
  What should your rules be? Should you have silent classroom?
• 1:07:26
  Should you have slant is that oh it was talking about the facebook clip he says oh yeah uh yeah,
• 1:07:35
  yeah so oh the two minute
• 1:07:38
  oh that was it yeah yeah the one that
• 1:07:41
  i mentioned yeah thanks tom about the two minute
• 1:07:44
  and he says the relationship building which is an interesting one
• 1:07:47
  yeah it'd be interesting to get some
• 1:07:50
  more thoughts on on this relationship thing this trad versus prog thing so if
• 1:07:57
  anyone is out there listening we'd really like some more people to come in particularly
• 1:08:02
  if you're a classroom teacher because we can get consultants in we can get people
• 1:08:07
  who have written books in.
• 1:08:10
  And that's all very good. They've got some real proper knowledge that they can
• 1:08:15
  share. But what we're really interested in, Teach to Talk Radio,
• 1:08:19
  is people in the classroom, people at the Chalk Face.
• 1:08:23
  So if you're listening to this now, thank you to everyone who's been listening
• 1:08:26
  to us talk. I hope there's been something out there.
• 1:08:29
  Yes, you. You guys. Yeah, we need you.
• 1:08:33
  We need you to come on here and talk to us and talk shop with us.
• 1:08:38
  We're not too controversial. we're just giving
• 1:08:41
  our we're always careful what we talk about we're
• 1:08:44
  not you know we might upset some people without
• 1:08:47
  really meaning to but it's not deliberate but if.
• 1:08:50
  You want to come on and give your thoughts on
• 1:08:53
  some of these things maybe you want to come on and start hosting
• 1:08:56
  one of these shows then do get in touch if
• 1:08:59
  you want to come on as a guest or a host in the future on
• 1:09:02
  teachers talk radio then get involved
• 1:09:05
  in that right i think we should
• 1:09:08
  probably call it a night at that point Yannick I
• 1:09:12
  just want to say thanks for coming on again it's nice to see you again thank
• 1:09:15
  you I hope things are all good with you
• 1:09:18
  and yeah I'm sure we'll see you back on
• 1:09:21
  here again I'll be back in two weeks
• 1:09:24
  guys if you'd like to be involved do get.
• 1:09:27
  In touch and yeah come on and talk
• 1:09:31
  about talk about something that you feel strongly
• 1:09:34
  about okay so that's
• 1:09:37
  it for today everyone again thanks
• 1:09:40
  again to everyone who's who's tuned in
• 1:09:43
  there's been a few people tune in i really hope there was something there
• 1:09:46
  that resonated and that was useful to
• 1:09:49
  you guys so from yannick and
• 1:09:52
  myself and everyone at teachers talk radio have very restful and well-deserved
• 1:09:59
  pleasant evening guys see you next time bye-bye you've been listening to teachers
• 1:10:06
  talk radio Tune in live and listen back at ttradio.org.