Latest / Learnings and Missteps by Depth Builder / Porta Potty Philosophy: Brown Nosing vs Career Building - Examining Motive and Intent

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Porta Potty Philosophy: Brown Nosing vs Career Building - Examining Motive and Intent · Learnings and Missteps by Depth Builder

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: You are listening to the Learn's and Missteps podcast, where we intend to change the image of careers in the trades.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Each of the inspirational stories is designed to celebrate the real men and women who have built careers in the construction industry and how they impact the world around them.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: These stories are brought to you by three brothers who share a mother.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I am Jesse, your host.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Our in-house writer is Ernest, aka La Vos.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hello.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: And our co-host is Renee.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: What's up?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Y'all ready?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, sir.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Dale.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: Hey Jesse, can you give me a snapshot of this episode?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: I hear you used some detective skills.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Ernest.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Me and Renee spend a good amount of time talking about a problem that he's dealing with that many people deal with in their professional careers at the workplace, even in a learning setting, like if you're in school.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end, he walks away with the framework to look at things and really gauge his intent.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that he can use to really see himself in a positive light.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: So are you ready to go?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do this.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we're recording the this is a backlog.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, what are we calling it?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: A bank.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: We're recording another bank episode because Renee is a taskmaster.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, he's helping us stay stay the course so that we can make sure this podcast survives past the first year.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, that's the reason we're recording bank episodes.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: And this episode is titled Suck Ass versus Badass.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct, Mr.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Duro?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: How about like suck up?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a little nicer language there.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because everybody knows.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh now.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: All those things.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the reason I wanted to talk about this.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've been in a couple of situations work situations where I had to think if I was being a suck ass right now, or am I doing something that's badass?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: For example, in my job now, I'm doing a whole bunch of extra things on my boss's to-do list.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Shall we say?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, no, I shouldn't say bosses to-do list.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing a a whole lot of extra work to help my team.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm getting some recognition from my superiors that my colleagues aren't getting because they're they're doing their job and that's it.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's great.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing my job too, and some.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been told by people, are my colleagues, so certain my some of my colleagues, that you know, you shouldn't be doing that because they're not paying you, uh, or they should be paying you more, or you're being a suck ass, or or I'm or they'll be passive.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: My favorite one is oh my god, that my favorite one that gets me upset is they'll they'll tell they'll be passive aggressive about it, and they'll be like, they'll be like, yeah, I'd I would do that too, but I'm no suck ass, or I'm no kiss ass.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or I'm no yes man.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of telling me like you're being that they'll freaking be all passive aggressive about it.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, I'm doing these extra things, and I'm here, I'm having these kinds of conversations with people, and some and I've thought about it, I've had to think about it.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, am I being a kiss ass because I'm not getting paid extra?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and I don't have to do these things.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: I could just I could just do the job they're paying me for, or am I doing something badass that's helping my team succeed?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I wanted to talk about it.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like I'm not the only one that deals with these kind of things, especially people moving up in their company.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is a good subject to to really dive into, and I understand how I think our listeners will understand or can relate of to that that weird zone of am I just sucking up or am I making an investment into my future?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: How are people gonna see me?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: How what's this gonna mean for for the current team dynamic?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean going forward?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like those those are all the things that are like wrapped up in this bad boy here.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: But let's start with you, the individual, right?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Your experience is really the reality that we need to examine.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone's experience is different.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start at the beginning of there's this extra assignment.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I understand.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: There's this extra assignment that you have a skill set that makes you the appropriate person to take on.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: How accurate is that?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh 100% accurate.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the responsibility of that skill set is is appropriate for for somebody with more experience or in a different role.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: How accurate is that?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Very accurate, yes.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Did your supervisors or the management did they ask you to do this, or did you say, hey, hey, look at me, look at me, look what I could do.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: No, well, they didn't they didn't ask me to do this.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: I suggested I do this because they were asking me how do we fix these problems that we got?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're not where we want to be.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what to do.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: They asked me what I thought, and and I give I told them I gave them a plan on on what what I thought, and and now I'm carrying out the plan.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: So the whole engagement was initiated by you trying to solve a problem.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it was all triggered by you trying to make things better, getting rid of what bugged you and the team.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let me so here's another question.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody else in your in your class when you were in school or or in your work team would have stood up and said, Hey, this situation sucks.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think we should do this.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do this, and they start doing it.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Would you think they were a suck ass?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: So in this situation, that's exactly what it sounds like you're doing, but you're still wrestling with am I a suck ass or am I a badass?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I well, you know what?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Let me make it easy.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're not a badass, you're far from being a badass.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm joking.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm joking.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so this idea or this feeling that you have, this concern that you have about being a suckass, we we just, you know, walk through a scenario where if someone else was displaying the behavior you're currently displaying in your work situation, you would not think they're being a suck up or teacher's pet.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: You would actually uh be grateful for their action.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you concerned about being a suck ass in this situation if you're doing the same thing?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I would be I that's a good question, man.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my fast answer is I'm concerned about being a suck ass or being called a or people perceiving me as a suckass, because well, one, like I'm not doing it to say, look at me, I'm great.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing it to help them.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's everybody, this helps everybody.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: This plan helps everybody, you know.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, you see a a lot of times like you see a teacher's pet or whatever, and and they're doing it for them to look good, or you know what I mean?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, they're not worried about everybody else.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I I constantly make it a point like that this this is gonna help everybody, it's not just for me.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what I heard there is the motive, the space from which the energy comes from is important.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And what I heard is you you took on this extra responsibility, this extra effort to improve the situation for you and your team.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Does your team agree that it's like not your supervisors, because obviously your supervisors agree?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Does your team, the people that you your peers, the people you work with side by side, do they agree that this problem you're working on is a problem that should be fixed?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they do.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: They just recently got it though.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: They just recently understood that it it was a problem, and because like the the original problem, their solution to the problem was just get rid of it.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just stop doing it.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's always yeah, that's pretty easy, right?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but that's not an option.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: We can't get rid of it, we have to do it.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, how can we make it better for everybody and user-friendly?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's where I made my suggestions.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And they're just now they they've just now warmed up to the to my idea.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so it sounds like there was some change implemented into your y'all's work, and there was it was tough for the people to to embrace the change.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and through that, there were some glitches and some bugs with whatever the change was.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a learning curve, and people were like, piss on this.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: We let's just stop using this bullshit, it doesn't work.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it was like the learning curve of the learning curve.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because we've been doing things for a while.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Even before I got to the team, they've been doing things a certain way, and now we got this new technology.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, now you gotta, and now my suggestion is how we use this technology moving forward.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I bet our listeners can relate to this dynamic 100%.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the change, dealing with change and you know, problem solving, throwing out the baby with the bathwater, uh, all that good stuff.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: So now what we've what we've uncovered thus far is, and I and I think what we're what we're we're working towards is is some indicators or some qualifiers that can that we can use in our mind that tell us, yeah, I'm being a suck ass, or yeah, I'm being a badass, or maybe on my way to someday in the very far future to be a badass.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: I freaking hate you.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, motive, right?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: What is your motivation?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing this?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is important, right?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you're doing it, these I'm I'm repeating this.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is how what I heard in what you were saying.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you're doing this to help the team, that's not being a suck ass.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would agree 100%.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm doing this as a problem-solving effort that everybody on the team agrees is a problem, I'm not being a suck ass.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, I would agree.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what I also heard that not everybody agreed it was a problem at the same time.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: It took some convincing for the others.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I would say everybody agreed it was a problem, but nobody agreed, not everybody agreed how we were gonna solve that problem.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, okay, okay.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: So everybody agreed it was a problem, but but getting everybody together to understand to agree on the direction was a challenge.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in that in that phase, is that when the guy started saying, Man, you're a suck ass.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing all this bullshit?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: This ain't your job.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: That was it, because they're there were the the other guys in the team, they were like, let's just stop doing it, let's just get rid of this instead of trying to work with it and make it work.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: So they wanted to get rid of it.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: It would have been so much easier if we did it the way we used to do it.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Verbatim.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Verbatim.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then you said, no, what if we try this?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, Ah, my mon.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's like quote unquote what they say.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I keep trying to tell you, Renee, I am amazing.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Not a badass.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: You're far from a badass.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, this is great.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: This is beautiful.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: So now that's where the rub is, right?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And originally when we started the conversation, it it you it felt like you were trying to understand if you're a suck ass.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Was that true?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: I I own that.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: So now we've we've had some, we know you have articulated some very specific points that help us understand that no, you're not a suck ass.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean you can't be a suck ass, because you can, right?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we all have that that capability.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I want to, before we move on, I want to, I want to paint a picture or describe what what a suckass is in my mind.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then let me know if that's what you see, and this way it's clear for our for our listeners, because we're fixing to jump into the the badass part.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when I think of a suckass, it's very close to what you've said, right?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think of somebody that does anything and everything they can to enhance the optics of themselves.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: They will take other people, they will take credit for shit that they had little or nothing to do with.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: They'll add or speak in a meeting just to be heard and add no value.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: They love talking about people and critiquing and highlighting other people's shortcomings, and actually do nothing to move the ball forward.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: But they're compliant, they listen to the boss, they follow directions explicitly, they don't make waves, they do, they fulfill the expectation, but it is the minimum, right?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's all they do.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of the product and what they bring to the group or bring to the table, it's really just the minimum.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: But they put all this other energy into highlighting themselves and demeaning or highlighting the the faults of others to make themselves seem better.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's my vision of a suckass.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: How close is that to yours?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Bro, that's like almost 100% describes one of the people that's calling me a suck ass.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Damn it.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm telling you, almost 100%, man.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: So moving forward, now we're talking about you said, hey, I think there's another way, we're not gonna get rid of it.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: They said, uh because we can't, right?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's not an option.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, ah, I'm on, here we go.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so now you're doing actually, so you're doing work, and it sounds like your supervisors and everybody, your team, and you agree, you're now doing work that is outside of the job description, that is on top of your core responsibilities, and and people are saying, What the hell?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing that?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's a foreign action, it's a foreign behavior.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, totally.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I would say that that type of behavior is the behavior of a badass, right?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, you're doing it.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: What am I understanding is you're doing it to make the situation better for the team, but you're not just doing it for that, right?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: You're not this altruistic, hey guys, I just want to help.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Don't pay me.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just want y'all's life to be better, right?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's you have another reason, and I'm I'm guessing that part of that reason is so that you could learn more, right?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's a whole new thing.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: You've never done it, you have an idea, and you have some tools and some expertise, and amazing big brother that can help you with these things.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you're like testing that out.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and it causes more work for you within because you still have to do your core responsibilities, yeah?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, okay, and you have to convince these guys like you don't know the answer, you're working towards an answer or the solution, and you've got to convince your time your team that this is the appropriate direction, even though you don't know, like without a doubt, that it's gonna work.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: How accurate is that?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's pretty accurate.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: How does that feel doing that?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man, it's it's kind of scary.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I I had at first I you know, I was thinking about the idea, and then I I uh I actually talked to you about it, and then like you added a couple of things to the idea, and then like we we came together and we created like this super idea, and you know, and we're rolling it out, and you know, we're we're in we're almost at the launch stage of the idea, and I'm now I'm like, oh shit, like yeah, what about this?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't think about that, and what happens if this is you know what I'm saying?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm I'm I'm like constantly thinking of like contingency plans or whatever for things that can go wrong.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it feels scary.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: So what I hear, like all of that, Renee, is is leadership behavior.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's and it is scary and it is uncomfortable.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it is badass being the badass.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: It is not being the suckass.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're and when I say leadership behavior, you know, there's this we get this impression in our head, or maybe not we, I had this impression in my head that every leader, like they know 100% without any doubt, what to do next and what the outcome and results are supposed to be are gonna be, and exactly how to get them.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: How does that fit with your paradigm?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, like I agree.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you think that they should know already, since they're the leader, they should know already, they should quote unquote know already.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: But my experience has has taught me, and and maybe maybe our listeners like will tell us like both of y'all are stupid and good.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Please take me to your leader so I can learn from them.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: But my experience, as in some of the the things I've led in, and and many um hell, all of the amazing leaders that I've had contact with or been able to learn from, is they have no freaking idea.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and I don't mean to say that they don't know what the hell they're doing.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean to say that they they're it's not even a hope, it's like it's a faith and a belief that when we do these things, that outcome that I see ahead will happen.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's also the humility of saying, and if these things, these little steps don't work exactly like I thought they would, awesome.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm gonna learn from that and I'm gonna adjust, and we're gonna grow as a team to learn how to adapt and flex and adjust and always be working to that that point in the future, that point in our vision.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like they have a secret map that tells them the way and shows them the pitfalls and the dangers.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's more like they know how to create the map.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's awesome.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's spot on.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: I can't even say it any other better way.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So now let's take that back to you, my young Padawan learner.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like you have a map?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like you're creating the map?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm creating the map.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so in creating the map, I heard you say you're a little concerned.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: What are you concerned about?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if I got this map and I'm drawing the map, and we're over here on the one corner of the map, and we need to be on the the other corner of the map, and right in the middle, I see like a dangerous chasm already there on the map, and I gotta figure out how to get over that.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's how I feel.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, what was your question again?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that that's it.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how how does it feel to be the person creating the map?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it feels it feels exciting, but there's like a I I do get a little a little level of anxiety having that kind of power because it's like, man, I you know, I'm I'm making this map and my team needs to follow the map.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're gonna be expected to follow the map eventually.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if they fall or if somebody gets left behind along the way, I'm gonna feel respectful.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Responsible for that.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's kind of scary, I guess.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's a big responsibility.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you said something that's a I think a pitfall, and I want to bring it up.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe you didn't mean it this way.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you said after I create the map, they will have to follow the map.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or yeah, we we will have to all of us are gonna have to do it.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I meant to say okay.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we that good.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Big difference in the pronouns, right?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's take this take us back to suckass and badass.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, suck ass, the suckass pronouns are I and me.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Would you agree?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree 100%.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: The badass pronouns are we and us.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: The veil has been lifted.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: You like what do you think?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Exposed me.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just it it's just something that that caught my attention.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm not saying that if you're if when you're a badass, you never use the word I or me.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's not at all what I'm saying.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's the the it's the where is your mind focused?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Where does your heart does it care about?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Does it care about I and me?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Does it care about us and we?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, now do you so here and back to the pitfall?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I got distracted with pronouns, but back to the pitfall I touched on a little while ago.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: You're developing a skill of how to create maps, right?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And again, in case our our in case I'm losing our listeners, we're not map makers here.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about being a leader and and what it feels like to be a leader.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like you're creating a map to a destination, and there's huge responsibility associated with that.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't know exactly where to go, what to do, at what exact moment, except that you know that you got to get to a point and you and you work through that for and with your team.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we mean by creating a map, or being the map creator is having the courage to get out there and do that, um, and having the foresight and the vision to work in that direction, and having the influence to get the rest of the group not only to follow, but also to contribute to the development of this map.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the question to you, Renee, is how do you get your team to contribute to the development of this map?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good one.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um to me, one way that's helped me is because they're just now starting to contribute to my to to the plan to the map, right?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the way to do that is to get them to believe in the map.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you do that by I mean, what I've done is I've explained to them what I'm doing and why I'm doing it, and explain to my team in hopes that they can understand and and even make suggestions and uh and and then they'll start to believe in the map.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: How does it feel when they make a suggestion that that sounds kind of goofy?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, that sounds dumb.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Have you had that yet?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, yeah, I've had that.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: How'd you deal with that?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I've been guilty of kind of laughing at it.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: I have been guilty of doing that before.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so after you laughed at it, did that person how willing do you think that person is to bring another idea?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh less willing than the first time, for sure.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that like that's a lesson, right?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that you've learned in your map building journey.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Be respectful, right?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And because you cannot create the map by yourself.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Rather, you can you can create the map by yourself.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: But the dynamic that you explained a little while ago is there's traps and there's chasms and there's all these things that people don't know because they weren't a part of the creation.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So when they deviate from that off of that path, they're gonna deviate simply because they don't know.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: They just think this this path is faster and shorter.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: They don't know why they need to stay on the path because they weren't a part of the creation of the map.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: If we stifle their input into the creation of the map, they are less likely to understand why these turns and moves and directions and steps are important because we didn't let them be a part of it.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like unintentionally, we excluded them from the situation.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a tough lesson.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a judgment, that's just a very difficult lesson that you'll learn with practice.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: You want to make it safe for people to offer any idea because a lot of times that really goofy idea turns into like, oh, let's remember that thing you said last time?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let's try that.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, but you want to you need to create a space where it's safe for people to be vulnerable and share their ideas and examine them, look at them, you know, respect them, honor that idea like a like a little jam you find on your path, pick it up and pass it around and let everybody put their hands on it and and and and touch it.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then if it doesn't make sense, then you put it on the shelf, say, okay, that was an idea.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: There is there are our ideas, and we're going to work on this one.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's very different than saying, okay, stupid, why would you that's not even gonna work, right?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Then guess what?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to play anymore, right?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: You have my feelings.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and that's good.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you said that because you're um the guy, the guy who brought the idea.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of so okay.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the guy that brought the idea was the suck up that we were talking about earlier, the guy who used you uh described.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he when I brought the idea.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, time out, time out.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know this guy.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, no, you're good.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know this guy.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: I've never met the guy, I don't know his name, I've never seen the guy.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: What I described was just a general suckass.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: And this guy just happens happens to meet that those qualifications.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, man.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like 95% of everything you said is totally spot on what this guy does.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that anyway, that guy, he I brought my idea to the table and he pooped on it, man.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, This is this is he literally said verbatim, this is shit.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: He said that, and I was pissed, right?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: I was pretty pissed.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't tell him, I didn't show him that I was pissed right there, but I was, I was freaking pissed.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: But and then, you know, we we talked about it, and now it became like, well, so he pooped on the idea, and the it he pooped on it kind of in the the stage where we needed to show what what I had done so far because we needed my idea in writing, and that was in writing, and it was in the stage where I needed to turn it in to my superintendent.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And yep, he he saw it before that and he pooped on it.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and he didn't offer any anything to make it better, so it was like, well, this is what we got, and and I gave it to the superintendent, and he liked it.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: He liked it, and he had some critique, and we worked on it, and I had to work with this guy together to to make it to get it to the final product.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And along the way, I learned that I I can be I can be petty and I can say like no that's stupid, or you know what I mean?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: I can poop on his ideas, but then he wouldn't be a part of making the map.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: You got it.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and if he's not a part of making the map, you know, then you know, then what the heck?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: What's the point?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: You got it.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's the whole thing, is if you're when you're the leader, or in order to be a badass, you gotta bring and keep everybody together.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes, and then um also as we started working together, uh at the at the beginning, I was a little abrasive and a little defensive about my plan.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: About your special idea, my precious.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: My precious idea.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And he had made a comment about that.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: What did he say?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it kind of opened my eyes.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh dang.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what did he say, man?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember, but he was he was like, I know this is your baby, and stuff like this, right?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: And he made something like that.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and I and it kind of was like, oh damn, you know what?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: I am being uh pretty defensive right now.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then I started being more uh open to his ideas, and and then he from when I started changing my behavior, he started he stopped being like, Well, this is shit, and he started giving legit ideas.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and we talked about it, and and you know, and then we started being becoming a team.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Once I changed my behavior and I stopped being so defensive, he stopped on his side too, and he stopped being a jerk, and you know, we could we started working together and now we got the fish product and it's great, and everybody likes it.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't all for me, yeah.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't all for me, and it wouldn't have been that way had he not put his ideas in there too.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I think this whole thing started.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: So this this episode started with the question of what's the difference between a suck ass and a badass?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and it wasn't like a rhetorical question, it felt like you were trying to figure out if you're a suck ass or a badass.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: I own that.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we talked about how, you know, the description or the behavior of what a teacher's pet, kiss ass type person is.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um we touch we talked about you know some leadership behaviors and and how that's different than being a suck ass.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I'll ask you after this conversation where do you think you are on the scale, sliding scale of suck ass to badass?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Where are you?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I definitely wouldn't call myself a badass, but even more so, I wouldn't I definitely wouldn't call myself a suck ass either.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just trying, I'm just a guy that's trying to help out, and that's all.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's really all I see myself as.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there's still a question of which is a real, I think a real conflict within an individual.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what at what point is it appropriate to say, no, that's not my responsibility, or say, man, this is an opportunity for me to learn and grow and develop to the next level?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I mean, at what point, at yeah, at what point is this extra work and responsibility at what point will that pay off, I guess?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or will it pay off, or should it pay off?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: And what is the payoff?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's hard, right?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: That where that bears down on you because I'm sure many of our listeners have been in that situation where they're doing more than the minimum, and that might cause them to stay at work later or do some work from home or do some studying, and their significant others may say, What the hell are you doing?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is my time.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing that if you're not getting more money for it?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or their coworkers think, oh, you're being a suck ass, you're you know, teacher's pet, and you're doing their job for them.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: They're just using you.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Any of those things sound familiar?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, I've been told all of those things.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, good.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and though, so that's for me, the way I'll I'll categorize that is that's a it's one of the sacrifices, right?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: We talked a little bit about, I mean, you and I have talked about how we'll make goals, but we don't really understand or examine what sacrifices are required to achieve those goals.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if your goal or our listeners, when your goal is to move on and grow and develop, uh when I say grow and develop, I mean within your organization, up the ladder, new positions, promotion, that's what I mean.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are sacrifices.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: And one of those sacrifices is exactly this you'll have to eat some crow.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: You'll have to listen to some static from your coworkers, from the people, um the people that you care about most because they care about you, right?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: The people that love you don't want to see you taken advantage of, and they will feel like you're being taken advantage of.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and the people that you are your peers, if I'm your peer, I respect you as my peer, and you better believe 100% I see you as my competition.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: You are my competition, and I want to be you.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: I also want us to grow and have a good time together, but I want to win.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't come to play ring around the rosy, I came to whoop some ass.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're my competition, I'm gonna challenge you and make things difficult, right?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm gonna get in your way, but I am gonna say, why are you doing that?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Or if I or for me, really, I'll see you doing something.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: I say, Oh shit, I need to pick it up and I'll do something else.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: But there are people out there that that are gonna say, wait a minute, why are you being a suck ass?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing that?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're making things harder for us.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now they're gonna you're doing that, they're gonna expect the rest of us to do that.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Stop that, slow down, take it easy, back off.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: You ever heard any of that?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: All of those things, right?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: All of those things.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: That is a natural dynamic.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I wouldn't say natural, that is a natural occurrence because I've seen it.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm describing to you things that I've experienced in my career.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think other people have experienced the same thing.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: So back to the sacrifice.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: When you want to be that badass, right?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: That that the that we're all working towards, or that many of us are working towards, one of the sacrifices is exactly this.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be ready for your family and the people to care about you to exhibit their care by saying, Hey, they're taking advantage of you.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing that?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: What about us?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be prepared to say, I understand.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: See, you have to be prepared to hear your loved ones be concerned for you and be worried about you being taken advantage of, and just bear that burden that I understand you care about me, and I'm still gonna do this.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's a heavy load.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: You've also got to be prepared to sacrifice the the good times, the fun times when you and your peers would sit back and talk shit about the boss together.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because now you're on a path to be that next boss, and now you're not that that that dynamic of talking smack about the old boss is gone, and you've got to be prepared to let it go.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's not fun either.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna be one of the boys anymore, you're gonna be on your own.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: And many times as the leader, you are on your own.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: You may only be two steps ahead of the group, but those two steps are infinite in difference of experience, difference of awareness, difference of perception.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: It may only be two steps, but man, it can be lonely.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you've got to be prepared for that.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say, Renee, in closing, the whole reason for this podcast was for you to learn if you're a suck ass or if you're a badass.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you're using the you're using this podcast to to make yourself feel better.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I'm joking a little, a little bit.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm joking a little bit.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of serious.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say, Renee, that you're not a suck ass.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think all the things that you're experiencing, uh, a lot of our listeners will be experiencing and have experienced, I would say that you're much closer to being a badass than you are being a suck ass.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you're you're what's causing that question and that dilemma within you is this being a new experience for you of stepping up and using the gifts and talents that you have in such a way that helps the people around you and also advances your career.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that creates this kind of what the hell is this?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Who am I?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: What am I?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that is appropriate.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm excited to see where it leads.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: Final thoughts, sir.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Did we cover everything you wanted to cover?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say so.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: All right then.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Let's close.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's the end of this episode.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being gracious and sharing your time with us.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: We ask that you show us some love on social media, give us some honest, actionable feedback, uh, help us understand if we're headed in the right direction and providing an entertaining and insightful experience for you.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: You can also give us that feedback uh directly via email at jesse at learnins and missteps dot com.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks again.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Be cool and we'll talk at you next time.