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Charley Crockett (2025) - From Subway to Stellar Civilisations · The Joe Rogan Recap

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  Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. And before we get going, you can
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  now access the full Google notebook with a mind map,
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  timeline and briefing document by clicking the link in the
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  description. OK, so today we're jumping into
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  a really interesting conversation Joe Rogan had
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  recently with a musician, Charlie Crockett.
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  Really unique guy. And our mission here really is
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  to pull out some of the surprising moments, the key
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  ideas from this, well, this incredibly wide-ranging chat.
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  They covered so much ground, authenticity, music, biz stuff,
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  historical lies, even ancient civilization.
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  That's right. It's like Charlie Crockett's
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  life story itself becomes this launching pad.
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  It's not just about him, it's about these bigger questions his
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  experiences bring up. You know, about society,
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  authenticity, deception, creativity, all of it.
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  His path is so unconventional, it just naturally connects to
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  these huge universal themes. Absolutely.
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  Let's let's start with something specific.
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  They mentioned early on the Viper Room, such a notorious
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  place, right? So much mystique.
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  And they highlighted that weird detail that River Phoenix
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  actually died outside on the sidewalk, not inside like a lot
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  of people think. Right, that detail kind of adds
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  to the whole strange vibe of the place.
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  Yeah, and both Joe and Charlie had their own, like, first
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  impressions of the venue. It kind of set this tone, this
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  discussion about things that feel undeniably real.
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  Because right after that, they shifted to Charlie's music.
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  And Joe put it really well. He said it embodies a life
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  lived, something you can't fake. And that idea that can't fake it
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  authenticity well that spun them right into talking about AI
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  artificial intelligence. You can tell they were both
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  genuinely concerned about how fast AI is getting at
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  replicating human creativity. They mentioned this new I think
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  there's a byte dance AI engine making video that looks
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  incredibly real, so real. It's getting close to that, you
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  know, singularity idea. We just, you can't tell the
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  difference anymore. But the insight, the take away
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  was clear. AI can mimic, sure.
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  But that soul, that genuine feeling from lived experience in
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  art, that's maybe the one thing it can't truly replicate.
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  So it really makes you think, doesn't it?
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  In a world where AI can copy so much, what is it about human
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  creation like Charlie's music that makes it truly unique?
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  What's that human spark AI can't touch?
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  And Speaking of truth, or maybe the lack of it, they went down
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  this rabbit hole of historical lies.
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  Some really eye opening stuff like original Coca-Cola actually
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  having cocaine in it. We kind of know that, but
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  hearing it starkly. Yeah, and then the Bayer story.
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  Oh. Right Bayer selling heroin in
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  the 19th century. Sears Catalog of all places.
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  Marketed as non habit forming. Can you imagine?
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  While a full kit needles vials for $1.50.
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  It's just incredible. And what's compelling is how
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  they drew a line from that to, well, modern issues like doctors
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  prescribing Oxycontin now. It shows how these ideas about
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  what's safe, what's acceptable, can be totally manipulated over
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  time, how Tres can be reshaped. They even talked about the moon
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  landing, not questioning if it happened, but seeing it as this
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  massive cultural event, you know, a projection of military
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  power. A power move.
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  Which then leads you to ask, OK, how many other narratives have
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  we just accepted without really digging deeper?
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  And this time into a point about Noam Chomsky, which I found
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  fascinating. So Chomsky obviously brilliant,
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  super skeptical about media politics.
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  The point made was he had this sort of blind spot.
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  He didn't apply that same critical thinking to the
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  pharmaceutical industrial complex.
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  Interesting. Yeah, it just shows how even
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  really smart people can have these areas where they don't
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  question things, maybe because they trust the experts or the
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  institutions involved. And building on that, that
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  critique of systems, Joe and Charlie got into consumerism.
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  They brought up Chomsky's idea again, that there are these
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  powerful forces working like really, really, really hard to
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  basically kill your sense of purpose.
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  Why? To make you a better consumer.
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  Exactly to make you buy more stuff.
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  It's a pretty sobering thought how much external pressure
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  shapes us. Which then LED them to talk
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  about how the whole idea of being rich has changed.
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  Used to be more about, you know, richness of life, fulfilment,
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  community, right? But now it's almost entirely
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  about stuff. Material things, numbers on the
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  screen, numbers on a Ledger. It's a huge shift in values.
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  So let's pivot from those big ideas back to Charlie's personal
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  journey because wow, what a path.
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  Before music really took off for him, he was hustling hard.
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  Door to door seals, men selling clothes, neckties.
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  He described getting into business as this hard knock
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  boiler room kind of experience. Real rough and tumble and after
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  some serious trouble, legal stuff, he literally had to walk
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  out of town. Said he had a scarlet letter,
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  couldn't even open a bank account.
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  Which really highlights that theme of self-reliance in his
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  story. And he mentioned this incredible
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  advice from his mother. She told him, basically, look,
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  what happened when you were young wasn't your fault, but
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  you're a man now. It's your responsibility.
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  So powerful. And that seemed to just cement
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  this idea for him. No victimhood.
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  Take responsibility or your problems will just follow you
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  forever. And that whole idea of forging
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  your own away, taking risks, it seemed to really connect with
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  Joe's own stories about gambling in New York pool halls back in
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  the day. Oh yeah, those stories were
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  great. He described this intense
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  environment, constant betting, betting on anything, raindrops
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  racing down a window, coin flips for thousands.
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  And you had to have heart, You had to be willing to bet.
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  If you were seen as tight with your money a knit, you were
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  basically out. Right.
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  A real school of Hard Knocks, like you said, high stakes,
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  which in a way leads us right into the music industry
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  challenges they talked about because that's another high
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  spakes, often harsh environment. They pointed out.
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  This massive shift right from the old days where labels
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  actually developed artists. Think Willie Nelson, Waylon
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  Jennings putting out multiple records a year, sometimes before
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  they hit big. Right, they invested long term.
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  Exactly. Compare that to now.
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  It's often like a pump and dump scheme.
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  Labels put in minimal cash, hope for instant viral fame like that
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  Oliver Anthony's situation. And if it doesn't happen
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  immediately, they move on. There's no room for artists to
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  grow organically over time in that model.
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  And this is where Waylon Jennings becomes such a key
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  figure in the story they told. Waylon, along with Willie,
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  really fought back against Nashville's control.
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  Yeah, they pushed back hard. Waylon demanded creative
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  freedom, he insisted. I'm using my own band.
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  I'm choosing my own studio, which was apparently unheard of
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  then. Totally revolutionary for
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  Nashville at the time. And that whole push back, that
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  feeling of being neglected by the mainstream, that's actually
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  what allowed the Austin music scene to really blossom.
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  It thrived because it wasn't controlled by the Nashville
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  machine. A blessing in disguise really
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  foster this independent spirit. But even with that history,
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  Charlie still ran into modern industry hurdles.
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  He talked about his deal with 30 Tigers.
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  He got like a tenth of the money a major label might offer, but
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  they still tried to lock him into those restrictive 2 year
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  record cycles. But then interestingly, another
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  artist, Coulter Wall, signed with a major and that actually
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  gave Charlie some leverage, while 30 Tigers suddenly didn't
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  want to lose another unique artist.
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  So they basically, as Charlie put it, handed the keys over,
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  gave him more freedom. Shows how things can shift
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  unexpectedly even in a business they called pretty shady.
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  Shifting gears a bit, they got into comparing performance
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  comedy versus music. Joe made the case that comedy is
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  actually harder. You know, constant need for new
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  jokes and there's no guitar covering you up.
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  You're just out there totally exposed.
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  Right, it's just you and the microphone.
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  Yeah, but they both agreed on that fundamental thing, the 10
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  years of eating shit or the 10,000 hour rule, whatever you
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  call it. Absolutely essential.
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  You got to put in the time, the grind, the often thankless work
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  to master any craft. Music, comedy, anything.
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  And that dedication unfortunately got tangled up
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  with a Really scary health crisis for Charlie.
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  He talked about having an enlarged heart and arrhythmia
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  and almost dying in the back of Willie Nelson's old tour bus, of
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  all places. Wow, that's intense.
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  Yeah, and his big take away from dealing with the medical side of
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  that was stark. No one's advocating for you,
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  only you. Such a crucial point about
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  needing to fight for yourself, especially in healthcare
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  systems. A tough lesson.
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  Before all the touring and the health scare, though, Charlie
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  lived this incredibly nomadic life like a gentleman Hobo St.
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  performer. He talked about starting out in
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  Europe, where just being a real Texan was apparently quite
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  exotic and paid well with tourists.
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  Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. And then later performing in New
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  York City subway cars, which sounds incredibly tough,
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  breaking laws, trying to grab the attention of people who
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  aren't choosing to listen. What was really cool was how he
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  learned from this young rapper, Jayden Woodard.
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  This kid basically turned subway platforms into his stage, his
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  business, freestyling, selling mixtapes right there and making
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  serious money. Like hundreds a day.
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  That's amazing. Pure hustle.
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  Totally. It's that raw St. authenticity
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  remind me of that famous video of the Super young Biggie
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  Smalls. Like 17 just killing it on a
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  Brooklyn street corner. No hype, just pure talent
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  demanding attention. And it was that kind of St.
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  performing that actually got Charlie noticed by Sony, the pop
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  machine, as he called it. He described going into their
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  offices, doing these focus group type sessions and the big lesson
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  he learned? If you don't know what you want,
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  they're going to sell it for you.
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  That's is it all about the industry, right?
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  Yeah. Have your own vision or they'll
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  just mold you into whatever they think sells.
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  Which loops right back to what they said about the music
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  business itself, calling it the shadiest business, even
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  comparing it to Wall Street and saying it's less regulated.
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  Yeah, that was surprising. Less regulated than Wall Street.
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  Apparently so, which just underlines why artists need to
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  understand the business side, not just the creative side, to
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  protect themselves, keep their autonomy.
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  Otherwise you just get chewed up.
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  But then sometimes things just line up perfectly, almost like
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  fate Charlie's album Welcome to Hard Times.
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  Great title, right? It actually got a huge boost
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  because of the pandemic shutdown.
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  Suddenly billboards were super cheap.
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  Like 80% off in big cities cheap.
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  No kidding. Yeah, because nobody else was
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  advertising and the themes of the album, struggle, feeling
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  like the game is rigged just resonated perfectly with what
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  everyone was going through. His career really took off then.
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  Amazing timing. And finally, a really positive
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  thread was his collaboration with Shooter Jennings.
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  Waylon son Charlie sounded genuinely thrilled about working
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  with him, said Shooter's the first producer who doesn't judge
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  him but still pushes. Him.
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  That's huge for an artist. Absolutely, and it's enabling
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  this whole new trilogy of records for Charlie.
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  He talked about how being underestimated his whole career
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  and now finding this authentic collaborator, it's been a
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  blessing really. Let's his unique style, that
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  stylistic chameleon thing he does shine.
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  You know, bringing it full circle back to authenticity and
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  maybe fate. Joe talked about his own move to
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  Austin, deciding to build a comedy hub there during the LA
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  shutdowns in 2020. He felt it was a place where
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  that iron sharpens, iron mentality could really flourish.
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  And it seems like it has. Yeah, this vibrant scene just
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  kind of emerged organically. It really proves that point.
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  Real talent, real drive. It finds a way.
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  It congregates and creates something cool, even when things
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  are tough. And maybe that's the thing about
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  authenticity, that soul, that lived experience we talked about
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  earlier, that's the human element AI might just never
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  capture. It can mimic form, but maybe not
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  the spirit, the messy, real journey behind the art.
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  And maybe that's what we'll always connect with most deeply.
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  It's kind of a hopeful thought for art, isn't?
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  It OK, so before we wrap up, here's that final provocative
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  thought, something that takes us way back into deep history.
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  They touched on some ancient mysteries, like the Eye of Horus
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  symbol from ancient Egypt idea came up.
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  What if it actually represents the pineal gland?
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  Yeah, implying the Egyptians knew things about consciousness,
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  maybe even construction. I mean, think about the
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  pyramids. How did they do that?
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  Right. The precision is baffling.
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  It connects to that Graham Hancock idea that maybe humanity
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  is a species with amnesia, that we've forgotten incredible
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  things about our own past and capabilities.
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  What if there are whole chapters missing?
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  And if you think about that alongside our potential future,
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  consider the Kardashev scale, you know, classifying
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  civilizations by energy use. Type 1 controls its planet, Type
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  2 its star, Type 3 this Galaxy. We're not even Type 1 yet.
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  We're still, as they put it, kind of barbaric.
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  Territorial apes with thermonuclear weapons, Yeah.
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  Exactly. But maybe, just maybe, in the
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  best case scenario, AI doesn't destroy us.
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  Maybe it helps us get to Type 1, helps us manage our planet, move
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  beyond this stage. It leaves you pondering, doesn't
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  it? The sheer scale of history, the
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  secrets potentially buried in our past, and where humanity
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  might actually be heading, or where we could head.
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  It's a lot to think about.