Latest / Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce / 367. Will I Ever Be Done Healing After My Divorce... or Does My Ex Get to Haunt Me Forever?

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367. Will I Ever Be Done Healing After My Divorce... or Does My Ex Get to Haunt Me Forever? · Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce

0:00
SPEAKER_02: So ladies, we were sitting we were we were sitting playing video games on Saturday evening.
0:06
SPEAKER_02: Mario, right?
0:06
SPEAKER_02: Mario.
0:08
SPEAKER_02: And I looked at the poll knobs on the cabinets in the living room.
0:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
0:14
SPEAKER_02: And I decided I didn't like them at 5 p.m.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
0:17
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
0:18
SPEAKER_02: You know what happened next, right?
0:20
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: I do.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: Brian had a project.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: And now I have a new chandelier in my living room and new pendant lights in my kitchen and new plants all over my house.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: And and new pull knobs on my cabinets.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: So excited to come see you now.
0:35
SPEAKER_04: I like so I love it.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: I want to say that I had a productive weekend like that, but I literally, the best part of my weekend was that I introduced my daughter to the Jersey Shore because we needed a new show.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: So we watched all of Laguna Beach in the Hills, and she was like, is there anything else like this?
0:55
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, let me blow your mind right now.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: So she loves it.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: She she watched the first episode.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: She loves it.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: She does it.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'll ever get over Spencer Pratt running for mayor of LA.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Just like the hill.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
1:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, wow.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: Talk about we're getting old.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: I had the best weekend ever, in which I I mean, it was just so much fun all weekends.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: Saturday, we served as a family, and that is like one of my favorite things to do.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, it was hot.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't like being hot, but um, you know, the the hosts of the event had made accommodations and put fans everywhere.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: So I just hopped from fan to fan, you know.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, so that was a lot of fun.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: But Sunday, my girlfriend had a birthday party and played the all she wanted was a bunch of women to play Mahjong.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Has has that hit has that woman's game?
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, Greenville's big on Mahjong.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: So it's like it feels like it's like the bougiest game.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: It is.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, right.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: But she had a croutemance and like the Bridgeton um soundtrack.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: Soundtrack was going, so everything was streams and it's just such a vibe.
2:11
SPEAKER_02: Were they drinking while playing Mahjong?
2:13
SPEAKER_02: Because it's just it's like a tricky game.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: Like you gotta, you gotta like have your brain on.
2:18
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm so curious about the women who yeah, I don't think.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: So most of the women already have played.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: There were a couple that had never played before.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: I've played several times, but there were a couple that were just learning, and yeah, they were having a it was like a mimosa type ish drink, you know.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: I would not be able to do both things at once, at least.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: See, I feel like mahjong, like I'm gonna have to think too much, and I don't know if that's gonna be enjoyable for me.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: So I haven't tried it yet, but it is everywhere.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes, it's right.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, she had mahjong earrings on and like mahjong napkins.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: It was it was a it was a vibe, the entire division vibe.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: It was so funny.
3:01
SPEAKER_02: Hi, love.
3:02
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary, the podcast helping divorcees go beyond talk therapy to process your grief, find the healing you crave, and build back your confidence.
3:12
SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Don Wiggins, a therapist, coach, integrative healer, and divorcee.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: Join me for a fresh approach to healing grief and building your confidence after divorce.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: All right, darlings.
3:32
SPEAKER_02: Today we are talking about I am so tired of healing.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: When can this shit be over?
3:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
3:43
SPEAKER_03: Initial reactions.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: We hear that all the time in our programs.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: We do.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: I think it all the time.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, on a low vibe moment, I feel it.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm like, come on, you know?
3:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: I literally said to my yoga instructor the other day, she came to us for she came with us to retreat, right?
4:04
SPEAKER_02: And did the yoga niche and she's so we have a VIP episode with her.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: She was here the other day, and I'm like, okay, Laura, is this what they mean by burning off karmic seeds?
4:12
SPEAKER_02: Like you've ever heard that in a yoga class, that so much of our life's work, right, is just like burning off karmic seeds.
4:21
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, sometimes it's really exhausting.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: You feel like you should be further than you are, right?
4:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like you feel like you should be further than you are, and like when you continue to be triggered and stay in these patterns, like I'm running workshops the last two months in our online community for it because so many women see their patterns as all these setbacks, you know.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like reframing in a way.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it can get frustrating AF for sure.
4:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:45
SPEAKER_02: I think that part of the problem for me is that I suffered under a delusion, full-on Dululu cakes, for probably 40 years of my life, that there was a destination called perfection.
5:01
SPEAKER_02: And it probably involved a Disney princess.
5:05
SPEAKER_02: But I really think I thought that if I got enough things in order and a line or whatever it was, that then I wasn't really gonna have too many problems anymore.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: And that it was gonna all just be sort of done.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: For me, it was Siddhartha, that book, right?
5:22
SPEAKER_01: Like we're we're Buddha, right?
5:24
SPEAKER_01: Like we're going towards like self-actualization as the goal, where we're never gonna feel any other, like we're never gonna be uncomfortable again, we're never gonna be triggered, we're never gonna be bothered by anything that anyone else says around us, and that's that's not a thing.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: It's not a thing.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: So is it fair to say that what we've been reaching for, what we help women reach for, is getting to this place where when you experience hardship or struggle or suffering or whatever it is, that you just consistently and automatically end up in a spiraling upward direction versus a spiraling downward direction, right?
5:58
SPEAKER_02: It's like pre is every time I experience crisis, I like spiral further down versus now when I experience hardship or struggles, I spiral further up.
6:09
SPEAKER_02: I become, I call it installing upgrades, right?
6:13
SPEAKER_02: Getting to the next level of the video game.
6:15
SPEAKER_02: And that means I have more resources and I have more support system and I have more of everything.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm able to tackle the next thing in life with greater resilience, greater, I don't know, wisdom, all the things.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: It's being able to level up.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: And I always tell women too, it's when you're triggered, it's looking at things from a place of curiosity rather than spiraling for days about it and thinking that you have this massive setback, and then now you're anxious and now you're laying in your bed and you're eating gallons of ice cream.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, it's it's basically yeah, being able to spiral up to say, hey, this happened today, and I'm gonna be super curious about what's going on so that I can figure out what's happening.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: Right.
6:54
SPEAKER_02: So let's talk a little bit about healing burnout and what it is and why it is, right?
7:00
SPEAKER_02: Because I don't consider myself in healing burnout at this point.
7:04
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but I think a lot of women do experience healing burnout, and I think there are some very specific reasons why.
7:12
SPEAKER_02: Let's dig into that.
7:13
SPEAKER_02: Any any sort of immediate thoughts?
7:19
SPEAKER_02: No, I'm excited.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: I feel like this is um a well-needed topic.
7:24
SPEAKER_02: We haven't really covered a whole lot, so so for me, healing burnout was about I am doing all the things, right?
7:34
SPEAKER_02: Like whether it's counting macros or like, you know, watching, like clean eating, making sure I'm hydrated, monitoring my sleep, going to yoga, having a meditation practice, journaling, you know, practicing the law of attraction, having a strong spiritual life, like um doing EMDR, EFT attack, like I am doing all the things and I'm still stuck.
7:57
SPEAKER_02: I am still stuck and not really perceiving significant bang for my buck, right?
8:05
SPEAKER_02: It's keeping my head above water, like my head is above water, but sometimes just barely.
8:10
SPEAKER_02: And it feels like I'm gonna have to work this hard forever to just keep my head above water from like a life management capacity um healing perspective.
8:20
SPEAKER_02: Does that resonate?
8:21
SPEAKER_02: Do you relate to that?
8:22
SPEAKER_02: Would you say healing burnout looks differently for either of you?
8:27
SPEAKER_01: I think as a single mom, it's the struggle is real because I had a really hard time putting myself first.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: Like there's not enough hours in the day, right?
8:34
SPEAKER_01: And it's like at the end of the day, when I have two hours to myself, I'd rather binge a show and completely zone out than work on my healing or do anything that was going to help me actually advance forward.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: It was like not even just healing burnout, it's just burnout burnout where there's no capac no capacity for healing.
8:52
SPEAKER_02: Right.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what it looked like for me pretty easily.
8:55
SPEAKER_02: We've got actually like easy, good, like easy solutions for that, which is yeah, yeah.
9:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so there's like burnout burnout.
9:05
SPEAKER_02: Good point.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: Right.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: So let me ask so what's the difference between healing and endlessly processing?
9:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so good.
9:15
SPEAKER_02: I feel like that's where I was like what I'm calling healing burnout, I feel like it was endlessly processing, right?
9:21
SPEAKER_02: It was like something would come up, I'd have to use several tools, and I'd use those tools, and at the end of the day, I'd still maybe be looping or my mind would still be ruminating or perseverating or like needing to call three different girlfriends to get feedback, validation, um, tell me I'm not crazy, uh, you know, like endlessly processing, but never actually closing many loops.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: Maybe they got a little lighter, maybe I got some different perspective, maybe I added some tools to the kit, but there's a difference between really letting things go, closing tabs, and listen, our patterns are a pattern, so we're gonna revisit them from a higher level, but like really really getting peace or separation or distance or you know, it taking up less and less and less and less and less space in my subconscious mind over time.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
10:16
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: And I think when you're healing too, at least me when I was going through really intensive therapy with the MDR and everything like that, then everything feels triggering because when those parts are all up onto the surface.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: And it's like you're you're really trying to figure out your cycles and patterns, everything feels like a fucking attack.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: That's how it felt for me.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: So it was like all day long.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: Like there would just be instances where I would feel severely triggered and activated.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I I never thought that it would get any better.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: I never knew what it was like to wake up in the morning and not have that pit of anxiety in my stomach and literally just be nauseous for the first 30 minutes of my day until my mind could catch up and be like, oh, okay.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: Like Is it are you describing pre-EMDR or during EMDR?
10:56
SPEAKER_01: Pre-MDR.
10:57
SPEAKER_01: Pre-EMDR.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: I was always anxious in the morning.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: I would always wake up sick every morning.
11:02
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: Plus.
11:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, and then during EMDR, to your point, or any of these types of right, because the same thing happens in IFS or homeopathy or any of the tools that we use, right?
11:14
SPEAKER_02: There are periods where it feels more raw.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: It's like going to physical therapy post-surgery, right?
11:19
SPEAKER_02: It's like it's gonna hurt for a minute.
11:22
SPEAKER_02: Or yeah.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: Before everything clicks into place.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: So what do you think that women are secretly ashamed to admit about their healing journey?
11:33
SPEAKER_02: That they're still stuck.
11:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that they're not that they're not doing as well as they would have us believe.
11:39
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
11:39
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
11:40
SPEAKER_02: I would also add that they want more, right?
11:43
SPEAKER_02: Like I think some women don't admit to themselves or to other people that they want more or better because then then um like it's that tentative relationship we have with hope.
11:53
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
11:54
SPEAKER_02: It's like I don't, I'm afraid to hope because then my hopes are gonna get dashed.
11:58
SPEAKER_02: I'm just sure that my hopes are gonna get dashed and I'm not gonna have what I want.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: So I'm not even gonna let my I'm gonna tell myself I'm this is I guess this is it, and I'm satisfied and I'm gonna make the best of it.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: A lot of women that just stay really small.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: Right.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: I hear, I hear it's um really hard a lot.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: Like, um, because it's so trendy.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: Like everybody's in their healing journey, you know what I mean?
12:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, especially if your algorithm is attuned to that, that and you've got the woman walking in the water with the the sun rays coming down and the music playing and the blurb, you know what I mean?
12:29
SPEAKER_00: Like there's so many, it's so many reels out there, but I think that women it's it's hard to admit that it's really hard sometimes, and like you don't feel strong enough to do it sometimes.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: Like it's not I I don't know if I can do this, you know, crumpled on the bathroom floor crying because I don't know if I don't think I'm strong enough to do this.
12:52
SPEAKER_02: I wonder which comes first, the chicken or the egg.
12:56
SPEAKER_02: Like say more.
12:58
SPEAKER_02: I had cluster headaches for 15 years and got divorced in the middle of that, and then had a baby.
13:03
SPEAKER_02: Like not exactly like that, right?
13:06
SPEAKER_02: But like I have done the hardest things in my illness.
13:10
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
13:11
SPEAKER_02: Like in my illness, I have done the hardest things.
13:13
SPEAKER_02: And so when it like, I can't imagine things being literally any harder than they were.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: So when it comes to healing, I always sort of circle back to like I don't care how hard it is while I'm healing, it can't possibly be hard as hard as it was when I was sick.
13:30
SPEAKER_02: Um but like where did that level of, I don't know, would you call that resilience or just plain like sheer, like, I don't know, gripping, right?
13:43
SPEAKER_02: Did that cut that came from suffering trauma as a young child?
13:48
SPEAKER_02: Like I just got so armored up, like I can do anything.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: It's your hyper-independent manager that is showing up to save the day.
13:56
SPEAKER_02: So that's what I mean.
13:57
SPEAKER_02: Which comes first, the chicken or the egg, right?
13:59
SPEAKER_02: Is like, does the trauma come first?
14:00
SPEAKER_02: Like, what creates the courage?
14:02
SPEAKER_02: What creates the courage to walk through a healing journey and not collapse, not back down, not give up?
14:09
SPEAKER_02: That like when people say what led to your success, and most people say grit, which means not quitting, right?
14:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:17
SPEAKER_02: Did trauma lead to me not quitting, or was I, or is is there just an inherent courage, or did one reinforce the other, or am I just stubborn as all get out?
14:27
SPEAKER_01: Like I think it's all of the above.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: And I think that what what women start to realize as they start going through their healing is even when they can get a little bit of relief, it it does give them optimism and hopefully to keep going, right?
14:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: And so the more capacity you have, then it feels easier.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: Where I agree with you when you're describing this, it's like, my God, like I was in a really bad dissociative state for a very long time, like years and years.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: And the shit that I went through back then, I would not wish on my worst enemy.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: But it's kind of like so anything that I'm facing on this side of my life, I'm like, cool, I have the capacity to deal with it.
15:05
SPEAKER_01: Like it's fine.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean, worst case scenario I can always sleep on Tiffany's sofa.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: They're very comfortable.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: I have three of them.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: They're lovely, they're very wide and and plushy.
15:19
SPEAKER_02: That was a, that was a that was a I just healed a little something right there because I used to say somebody else's sofa, right?
15:24
SPEAKER_02: So now it's Tiffany's sofa because Tiffany is such a safe place.
15:28
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: Love it.
15:30
SPEAKER_02: Love it.
15:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
15:33
SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about when women are doing the healing thing and um they're like afraid that they're not trying hard enough, right?
15:45
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, I just gotta add enough.
15:47
SPEAKER_02: Like now I just gotta check my gut health.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: And now I've just gotta figure out how to intermittent fast, right?
15:52
SPEAKER_02: And I've just got to do it a little, I've just got to try harder because I don't find that that's the answer at all.
15:59
SPEAKER_02: Like, harder isn't the answer.
16:01
SPEAKER_02: If you're not making significant progress on a consistent basis, you're not using the right tools, right?
16:07
SPEAKER_02: We have not properly identified the source of the problem and applied the proper solution to it.
16:13
SPEAKER_02: So let's talk to the women who are like, if I'm not recovering, I'm not trying hard enough, I just need to go harder.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: And they, you know, lift heavier at the gym, run further, exercise more, eat less, uh, you know, optimize, optimize, uh, you know.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: Well, I know there's a lot of time with the women in our program that will tell them to take a break from the homeopathic remedies for a little bit.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: It's the same reason why I don't do IFS in every single session.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, like you can only push so hard until you butt up against somebody's capacity, and then it's up to them to sort of integrate and work through it.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: And I say this too: healing is twofold.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: There's the awareness, there's what you understand logically, and then there's the action behind it.
16:59
SPEAKER_01: So if I see clients who have a lot of awareness, but they're not taking the action to actually change the behavior, I'm not gonna push further until they they're caught up.
17:08
SPEAKER_02: So sometimes we actually need less in order to shoot forward, right?
17:13
SPEAKER_02: It's the idea of like drawing the arrow back before you release it and it shoots forward, right?
17:18
SPEAKER_02: And I think very often as women, we do pile on more.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: We're like, oh, I'm just gonna add all of these things when really we probably just need a few key elements, and actually we need more time and space and rest more than anything.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: And then and then no shame for the rest.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: I feel like our generation is um so uh driven, driven.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: You must be, you're like, you're lazy if you're resting.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: And um, so like your body needs rest, your mind needs rest, your your spirit needs rest.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: So okay, let's talk about what I think is at the core of that that is problematic.
18:46
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
18:47
SPEAKER_02: Which is comparison.
18:48
SPEAKER_02: Comparison.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: Oh, right.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: Because not only am I comparison comparing myself to you and all the other women who are watching, but I know damn well you are also comparing.
19:00
SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes as women, we are genuinely not good at wanting each other to win.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: And we soothe ourselves by comparing ourselves to other women and feeling better if they're doing worse.
19:14
SPEAKER_02: And that is like not a cute thing to call out, acknowledge, own, admit.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: But if if more women could admit and acknowledge that and want other women to win, we would really have each other's backs in a way that energetically, right?
19:30
SPEAKER_02: Because how many times does a woman offer to help another woman, but on the inside there's all this noise, noise, noise, right?
19:38
SPEAKER_02: It's it's an energy signature of um, I don't know, put words to it.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, so let me give you an example.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: I just um kind of reconnected with a girlfriend that I've known since I was 14, and we kind of touch base on and off, send Christmas cards, whatever.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: So we decided that we were gonna set up a phone call just to kind of reconnect.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: And it had been years since I'd really talked to her.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: And so when we got on the phone, we kind of danced around for the first five minutes on like small chat, you know what I mean?
20:04
SPEAKER_01: And then finally I said to her, Look, like I love you immensely, but I am in this space in my life where if I cannot be authentic in my friendships and relationships, and we're just gonna call and talk about small bullshit, like I love you, but I I can't do this.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: So either like we're all in on this, and like I I'm getting to the core of you and really what's going on, instead of just like telling me that everything's okay and I know it's not.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: So after that, like we had this beautiful conversation that was so vulnerable about where we were in our lives, and it was it was wonderful, but that that's kind of the level that I require now of other women in my life.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: Like you either show up as yourself authentically, like hot mess, tell me when you're having a great day, tell me when it sucks, or I just I can't.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: Like I just cannot be in the low vibe shit where we're gonna just pretend and we're gonna be the Instagram people that act like everything's fine when really everything is going to shit.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: Not fine.
21:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: And my mom told me, and I think this is wild, and I don't know how you guys feel about this, but women, I feel like are better supporters of other women than men are.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, when it comes to support that we need from our partners, I feel like we have to ask for it from men more than we do from our female friends.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: Um and I I could be wrong on that, but I feel like that is, you know, it's kind of it's the experience of it, right?
21:28
SPEAKER_01: Like women should be able to show up for other women.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: They just should.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think that it's I don't think it's wrong.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: I think that women are natural nurturers.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: And so we have that empathy.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: And that might not be, this isn't like a a black and white, like everybody across the board has is born, you know, like has this, because empathy isn't um born with your it's taught, but like I do think that women, I walked into the party yesterday and a friend of mine literally collapsed in tears in my arms because I'm just her safe person, you know, and haven't seen her in a couple months.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: But there's like this automatic um heart that goes out to your people, you know what I mean, for women.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: And when you see a woman in your life hurting, you you automatically just want to nurture them, love them.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: I think in general.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's always, and I think it's the people you surround yourself with, because a very broken person unhealed is going to attract different people in their life.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
22:33
SPEAKER_00: Does that make any sense?
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Am I am I landing the plane?
22:37
SPEAKER_02: I think that women who are profoundly burnt out do not have access to give and receive that level of support.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a good point.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: And I think very good point.
22:50
SPEAKER_02: More than less women in our communities, in our society are burnt out, profoundly burnt out.
22:59
SPEAKER_02: And so not only do we not have the energy to really support other women, but we also don't know how to receive love and support.
23:08
SPEAKER_02: We somebody may reach out to help us, right?
23:10
SPEAKER_02: Like somebody may genuinely reach out and then we feel guilty or we say, we don't deserve the compliment, or no, you did too much for me, or you know what I mean?
23:18
SPEAKER_02: We can't rest in the in the support of the receiving.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: So that's what I was saying about the comparison and the noise, right?
23:25
SPEAKER_02: It's like there's so much noise inside of women, even when they're doing the behavior of giving and receiving, it's not landing because there's so much burnout, there's so much low self-esteem, there's so much undeserving, there's so much I'm not good enough, there's so much she has more than me, I don't have enough.
23:46
SPEAKER_02: There's so much noise inside of us that the giving and receiving is like jacked.
23:53
SPEAKER_02: And so that's what causes healing burnout, right?
23:57
SPEAKER_02: Because if you can't receive support and nourishing and nurturing, how how you're gonna be on the healing hamster wheel forever and a day because nothing is penetrating.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: It's not landing.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that could be because your nervous system is frozen.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: It could be because you have underlying beliefs that you're not worthy.
24:18
SPEAKER_02: A frozen nervous system that can't downshift, can't receive softness or ease or rest, right?
24:25
SPEAKER_02: And so it can be so layered uh as to why you can't receive the things, right?
24:33
SPEAKER_02: Whether it's um because you're going through a real-time crisis or trauma.
24:39
SPEAKER_02: And so your nervous system is appropriately doing fight, flight, freeze, fawn, or it could be because of a past crisis or trauma, right?
24:46
SPEAKER_02: We have plenty of women we've worked with who their divorces have been over for a couple of years, but their nervous systems are stuck.
24:52
SPEAKER_02: They never downshifted.
24:54
SPEAKER_02: Um and or it could be, I mean, there's infinite reasons, right?
25:00
SPEAKER_02: Like that for whatever reason you can't receive because you not tackled those early childhood.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: I'm not good enough.
25:10
SPEAKER_02: I don't deserve this, everything's gonna fall apart anyways.
25:13
SPEAKER_02: What's the point?
25:15
unknown: Yeah.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: But again, we talked, and I know we talked about it in an earlier pod, but it's like again, another obstacle that's up against the women that chose to leave is, you know, I chose this.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: So how dare I complain and ask for help because, you know, then other women are gonna think, well, bitch, you chose this.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
25:34
SPEAKER_01: Like this is what you wanted.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: Family's gonna be like, we told you to stay.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: Here you are, struggling, you know.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think there's a lot of shame in that.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: And I think that there's a lot of pressure.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: There's also, and I'm sorry, like I feel like there's so much shit in the post-divorce era that's like you see these women, it's like celebrities that give birth and a month later they have six packs.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's like these women that are on social media.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes, right.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: It's like these women that are on social media that are like one month post-divorce and they're like, Oh, you should be living your best life.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: And they have like the glassy hair and the sunglasses and the bikini bods, and they're like, Oh, you should be rocking it, you should be living your best life.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: That is all bullshit.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: That is not a thing.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's not a thing.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: It's bypassing.
26:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:19
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I have such a pet peeve about that in general.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: Like, you went to therapy, you read a book on divorce, and now you're you've transformed your life.
26:28
SPEAKER_02: You've you're setting boundaries now.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:31
unknown: No.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: You're setting boundaries now.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: Joy's giggling.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: She's like, that is not a thing.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
26:38
SPEAKER_02: You lose.
26:40
SPEAKER_02: Because listen, setting boundaries is hard.
26:43
SPEAKER_02: Like hard, right?
26:46
SPEAKER_02: There's there, I think a lot of people in our current culture call like cutting people off, setting boundaries, and that's it's that's not it.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: Anyways, um, that's a different podcast episode.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, but that's what I did.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: Are you trying to say I'm avoidance?
27:02
SPEAKER_01: WTF.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: That's that should be its own episode, yes.
27:06
SPEAKER_02: That's its whole episode.
27:08
SPEAKER_02: Uh okay.
27:09
SPEAKER_02: Why?
27:10
SPEAKER_02: I love this question, especially for Tiffany.
27:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, but open forum.
27:15
SPEAKER_02: Why is it that some of the smartest, most capable women stay stuck the longest?
27:22
SPEAKER_02: Joy's eyes are like, ding!
27:25
SPEAKER_03: I know why, I know why.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna say what I'm realizing too now is that a lot of women that are really smart have a really hard time k taking accountability for their part in the breakdown of the marriage, which results in them staying stuck because they are unwilling to see their part in it and unwilling to come to the table because they think that they should have been smarter than that, and so the shame keeps them stuck, the spiral, because they're too afraid to come too close to the surface and say, I screwed up too.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: That is a fantastic answer.
28:08
SPEAKER_02: I would like to add that in that smartness they're trying to outsmart feeling the pain.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: They want to skip a step.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: I would say it's an ego state, it's a manager, right?
28:22
SPEAKER_00: It's an ego state, it's a victim state, it's a I can I am smarter than this, I can think my way out of this, or I can think um I can handle it because I am so capable.
28:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Brene Brown talks about in her work, you cannot engineer the discomfort out of vulnerability.
28:47
SPEAKER_02: You cannot engineer the discomfort out of vulnerability.
28:52
SPEAKER_02: And without vulnerability, you cannot have true intimacy.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: So whether that's in your future relationships or in your friendships or with yourself or with a higher power, you have to go to vulnerable places, and so many women want to skip that step.
29:11
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: It's much easier.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: Who wants to feel like that?
29:14
SPEAKER_01: Who wants to get up every day feeling lonely and crying and feeling like shit?
29:18
SPEAKER_02: Well, I want to do anything that's gonna get me to my goals, like that is like you know, so we think we can outsmart, we think we can, I don't know, like, but I want to do whatever it takes to get me where I want to go, to have the, you know, to live the life I want to live.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, if that's what it takes, if it takes eating my vegetables, then I'm gonna eat my vegetables.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: But how do you convince the women that are sitting on the sidelines and they're like, eh, I don't really want to do that.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: I don't really want to feel that.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to convince them anymore.
29:46
SPEAKER_02: I want women to I don't want to convince any women anymore.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: I want women to say, like, all right, I surrender.
29:56
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
29:57
SPEAKER_02: I hear you.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: I hear you.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: Because I've tried everything else and nothing's working.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: It's not working my way.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:04
unknown: Yeah.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: Little trustball activity.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: I think I used to spend my life like trying to convince people, right?
30:10
SPEAKER_02: Like Joey, you said this earlier this morning, right?
30:12
SPEAKER_02: Like people who won't red pill or whatever.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: What what did you say?
30:15
SPEAKER_02: How'd you say it?
30:16
SPEAKER_02: I can never remember blue.
30:18
SPEAKER_02: I don't I don't know which pill is.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: We actually don't know.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: I just call it the blue pill analogy.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: She was talking about the blue pill, and I'm like, are we doing an episode on Viagra?
30:27
SPEAKER_00: It's like it's the scene from The Matrix where Morpheus asks Neo, the red pill, the blue pill, and like one of them, you go back to sleep and you for and you like don't know anything you've learned, or the blue and you die, you know, you you dive into the rabbit hole or whatever.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: Dive into the rabbit hole, right?
30:45
SPEAKER_00: Because like in early days in my healing, I would be like, why the freak did I choose the blue pill?
30:51
SPEAKER_00: Because I don't, I I was perfectly happy in my dissociation delusions, you know, like it didn't I was fine.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: And then you then you you know wake up one day and you're single mom of three kids, completely alone and broken on the floor.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: And so you either you have this, you have you, you eventually come to this fork in the road in which do I stay delusional, dissociated, broken, or do I do this?
31:28
SPEAKER_00: Do I, you know, take the pill and do the hard work?
31:33
SPEAKER_00: And um I think every woman at some point comes to that crossroads, and you just really have to choose um your hard.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: You're hard, choose your hard.
31:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: And one hard familiarity or growth, right?
31:52
SPEAKER_01: It's it's between what's familiar and nine times out of ten in the beginning of your healing, you're gonna keep choosing what's familiar to you.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: Right.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: And then eventually one day you're gonna look at that other path and you're gonna be like, you know what?
32:03
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: It's like I I can't do this anymore.
32:06
SPEAKER_02: This one has twinkle fairies down this path.
32:09
SPEAKER_02: I uh yeah, and I think that I used to really compulsively meet women at that fork in the road, sub-women for people, anyone, family, name it, right?
32:21
SPEAKER_02: Like friends, I would meet them at that fork in the road and I'd be like begging them, right?
32:26
SPEAKER_02: Like, no, you must come with me.
32:28
SPEAKER_02: And it's I don't I don't want to convince women anymore.
32:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
32:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: It's a deeply personal choice.
32:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:38
SPEAKER_02: How does healing for many people on the tiki tackie become a form of self-improvement versus self-compassion?
32:49
SPEAKER_02: Because self-compassion is actually what heals.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: Self-improvement is actually what keeps people stuck.
32:55
SPEAKER_02: Let's discuss.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: Say that one more time.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: The self-improvement healing ends up um becoming uh a form of self-improvement versus self-compassion, right?
33:10
SPEAKER_02: Self-improvement is like, I must improve myself.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: Like um it comes with through like a critical lens, right?
33:16
SPEAKER_02: Like I must lose two more pounds, I must, I must optimize my blah blah blah, right?
33:21
SPEAKER_02: Versus self-compassion is where we lay burdens down, right?
33:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: Self-improvement is like we're piling burdens on.
33:28
SPEAKER_02: It's like I have another thing to do, I have another thing to perform, I have another thing to optimize, right?
33:33
SPEAKER_02: Whereas self-compassion is where we're able to do that giving and receiving of love, and we're able to lay our burdens down, and then our capacity automatically grows and our health automatically improves and our body composition automatically optimizes.
33:45
SPEAKER_02: It's wild.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: It's like self-compassion will actually get you to your healing goals, and self-improvement actually drives burnout and healing burnout, healing burnout and burnout burnout.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:57
SPEAKER_02: And self-improvement is like an entire book section at Barnes and Noble, right?
34:01
SPEAKER_02: Self-improvement.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: And then we want to read another book and we want to optimize, we want to live with another podcast and we want to optimize and we want to life hack and biohack and another product.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: Right.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: So the um, so when you were talking, I was envisioning IFS work in which I went and sat with the woman who just kept on, you know, like kept on um making excuses or or whatever it was in that point in time, but like, because I had so much shame coming out of my marriage, in which of it was like I um I I wrote both walls.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: I had no idea and and I I knew something was going on, or I um I should have said something, I should have fought harder to see his phone, or I should have done, you know, I mean, there's a million, there's so much shame.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, but being able to through a f FS and deep work, meet that version of me and hold her and like kiss her on the head and give her a hug.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: Like I just envisioning giving myself a hug of like knowing I did my best at the time until you learn better.
35:27
SPEAKER_02: And those words don't even quite land it, right?
35:30
SPEAKER_02: Because when you meet yourself in that moment of IFS, right?
35:34
SPEAKER_02: It's like facilitated by a healer who's already setting the tone of love and acceptance, a safe place, right?
35:42
SPEAKER_02: And you've already cultivated so much resource, you've you've really leaned into loving eyes, you really know how to open your heart at this point, right?
35:51
SPEAKER_02: It's like these moments in IFS don't work if you can't open your heart, if you don't know how to let your guard down enough to open your heart, right?
35:59
SPEAKER_02: Because we hear that line, Joy, and you said it so well.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: Like, I really know that I did the best I could at the time.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: But like that line, every woman has heard it and it falls flat, right?
36:09
SPEAKER_02: Why?
36:09
SPEAKER_02: Because she can't open her heart.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: That thing is padlocked shut for eight ways from Sunday because there's too much pain blocking.
36:19
SPEAKER_02: And so this moment you're describing where you met yourself in the shame, you know, in this mess of your marriage, it's like because you've done so much heart opening, heart recovering.
36:31
SPEAKER_02: Remember in the very beginning when that was that um, oh gosh, you both were taking it.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: All three of us were taking it for a while.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: It was like a B complex, like a heart.
36:40
SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
36:41
SPEAKER_02: It was a process supplement.
36:43
SPEAKER_02: And it literally recovered the heart at a cellular level, right?
36:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:47
SPEAKER_02: So it's like we've come at it from an energetic level, from a homeopathic, from a supplement level, like actually giving the heart structure the resource it needs to recover itself from the thought life level, from the belief system level, from the, oh, here's a support system you've wrapped yourself in to love you until you could love yourself, right?
37:04
SPEAKER_02: It's like so multifaceted for you to then be able to come to the table and IFS and do self-compassion.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: And then that part of you, what happened in that moment?
37:15
SPEAKER_02: Did it release?
37:16
SPEAKER_02: Did it soften?
37:16
SPEAKER_02: Did it relax?
37:17
SPEAKER_02: Did it cry?
37:18
SPEAKER_02: Did it that part of you that felt so much shame and was still sort of wound tight together?
37:24
SPEAKER_02: It released.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: It released.
37:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:28
SPEAKER_02: It released.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: I would say the difference between the two when I talk about self-improvement versus the other side is the women that stay in their heads versus the women that feel connected to themselves, right?
37:39
SPEAKER_01: So self-improvement, it's like things that we do.
37:42
SPEAKER_01: And so these are women for me that are just going through the motions.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, you're going to the gym, you're hanging out with friends, you're journaling every once in a while, you're, you know, doing whatever.
37:51
SPEAKER_01: But then at the end of the day, do the things, pushing yourself.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: But you're not present while you're doing them.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: You have no connected sense of self at all.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: Like you don't feel peace within yourself.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: The stillness freaks you out.
38:03
SPEAKER_01: So these are women that again are just like checking the boxes instead of actually experiencing what it's like to face a lot of their bigger parts and be able to work through it for sure.
38:14
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
38:15
SPEAKER_02: Tiny little side quest before we wrap it up, right?
38:17
SPEAKER_02: What about the woman who is actually healing because she is feeling pain, but she can't tell if this is new healing pain or the old way of pain, right?
38:30
SPEAKER_02: So how can a woman discern between they're actually healing, feeling, recovering, shifting patterns versus the old way of pain where they're just stuck in the pain, maybe spiraling down in the pain?
38:47
SPEAKER_02: How does the body mind perceive the difference between spiraling up pain and spiraling down pain?
38:52
SPEAKER_02: Right, when we talk about choose your hard, how can a woman know if she's actually traveling down the path of healing and feeling and integrating versus healing, performative healing, disassociation, numbing, bypassing?
39:11
SPEAKER_02: How can she know?
39:12
SPEAKER_02: And I'm thinking of a couple people in particular, right?
39:16
SPEAKER_02: Because very often when we're in the recovery journey and we're peeling back layers, we're gonna find new layers of pain and discomfort that we have to sit with, keep our hearts open to until they release.
39:30
SPEAKER_01: I would say for me, um, and I just ran workshops on this last month.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: It's about pacing and recovery.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: It's about your ability to stay curious while the trigger is happening and how quickly can you recover and or repair.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: Oh, uh-huh.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: So line to base line.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: And it's like you get triggered.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: How intense does it feel?
39:51
SPEAKER_04: Uh-huh.
39:51
SPEAKER_01: You know, and then we're gonna look at that trigger again the next time it happens and we're gonna rate the intensity of it, you know, how intense does it feel now?
39:57
SPEAKER_01: My point is sometimes healing actually means it feels more intense, not less intense.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: That's just one piece, right?
40:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, let's rate the intensity, but then also are we spiraling for days or were we able to regulate and pull ourselves out in 24 hours?
40:11
SPEAKER_01: Like that was the key for me to know that I was healing was that when I would get severely triggered and then I would dissociate like crazy, I would stay in a fog sometime for days.
40:21
SPEAKER_01: Or weeks or months.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: So it's like for me, it's faster recovery time.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: For me, it's faster regulation, being able to pull out of it and then also staying curious about it instead of getting sucked in to the downward spiral of, well, shit, now I'm triggered again.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm not healing, I'm back to square one.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm gonna add another, I'm gonna add this phrase that I just used a moment ago, right?
40:42
SPEAKER_02: Like, can you get triggered and stay heart open versus heart closed?
40:45
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
40:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's I'm gonna say that that's like the major lever, right?
40:49
SPEAKER_02: We use the word dissociation sometimes, but it's like stay open, which is what you're meaning when you're saying stay curious, heart open, unguarded versus shut down, heart close, blame, attack, defend, hide.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: No going into firefighter mode.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, are you reaching for the wine afterwards?
41:07
SPEAKER_02: Are you so because the pain is gonna right, we're gonna feel pain throughout our our lifetime, right?
41:12
SPEAKER_02: So it's like in the pain, can we stay heart open, stay curious, move through through connection with self and with other women and you know, save people versus get triggered, feel pain, close heart, defend, attack, X, Y, Z, go numb, dissociate.
41:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:32
SPEAKER_02: Okay, awesome.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: What would you ladies say to the woman who is listening right now and she is like, I don't want to do it anymore.
41:41
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to do this healing crap anymore.
41:43
SPEAKER_03: I'm done.
41:44
SPEAKER_03: I'm tired.
41:49
SPEAKER_03: Cry it out.
41:53
SPEAKER_03: Reach out.
41:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: Let us, let us let us let us grab you.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: Let us hug you, kiss you on the forehead.
42:02
SPEAKER_03: Kiss you on the forehead.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: Because you don't have to do it alone, and that's that's what's so beautiful about our program, is that every woman gets that moment where they're tired and burnt out and worn out, and you know, like let us, let us.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:21
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
42:21
SPEAKER_02: So we enroll once a year for our 12-month program, and we are in that moment of time right now.
42:30
SPEAKER_02: And so we are just waiting for you to lean in so we can kiss you on the forehead.
42:40
SPEAKER_02: Help you open your heart because that's what's missing, right?
42:43
SPEAKER_02: Is uh the capacity to leave your heart open and relearn what safety, security, well-being, self-love, compassion receiving rest feels like.
42:57
SPEAKER_02: We love you so much.
42:59
SPEAKER_02: Peace.