Latest / The Mookse and the Gripes Podcast / Episode 141: A City Built of Books: Our Literary Londons

Transcript

Episode 141: A City Built of Books: Our Literary Londons · The Mookse and the Gripes Podcast

• 0:00
  [music]
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is the Mookse and the Gripes podcast.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everybody.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: This is Trevor.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Earth has not anything to show more fair.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Dull
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: would he be of soul who could pass by a sight so touching in its majesty.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: This city now doth like a garment wear the beauty of the morning,
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: silent, bare, ships, towers, domes, theaters, and templars.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Stemples lie open unto the fields and to the sky,
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: all bright and glittering in the smokeless air.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Never did Sun more beautifully steep in his first splendor, valley, rock, or hill.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Ne'er saw I, never felt a calm so deep.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is a poem about Paul.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Paul, how is that mighty heart doing this morning,
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: that sight that is nothing on earth more fair?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: How are you doing?
• 1:10
  [music]
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: The heart right now is,
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: it was hammering a little bit because I was afraid of where you were going.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: And now I would say by the end of the poem,
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: it's like the Grinch where it's like two sizes bigger than it was when you started.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if I can live up to all of that, but that was quite a start.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, probably since Wordsworth died many years before you were born,
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: maybe he wasn't writing this about you, but I think he was kind of a nature prophet.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: He might have known.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, he might have known.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: As he sat on Westminster Bridge, you know, just thinking of you someday.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I imagine his thoughts were probably far loftier than that,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: but I will take it absolutely.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, what a great way to kick off.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully I can live up to some little part of that.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, excellent.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I don't know.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably a silly opening.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: All of mine have been so good up to now.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, listeners are like, Trevor's being a little silly today, as he never is.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: What's going on here?
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, still getting into the rhythm of it.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: But also, I love that poem from Wordsworth about London.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we are going to be talking about London now.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Paul,
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: as we talked about last episode, you just got back from your first time visiting London.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we've been thinking this would be a fun episode to do for some time.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And this was just a great opportunity to do it.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I'm really excited about it.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's still very much fresh in my mind, as you would expect.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think I talked about in the last episode,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: it's amazing how going to someplace like that that you've always wanted to go.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then when it lives up to and even exceeds your expectations,
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: it's just been fun to kind of let it all sink in and go back and look
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: through pictures and everything.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm looking forward to spending more time thinking about London because,
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: man, there's so much there.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: So much there.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I've been to London a few times.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's where my wife and I met back in 2004.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I had been before that.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then we went back again last year, as I mentioned, a year ago.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing is, I felt I knew London long before I went there.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the reasons I wanted to go there is that I felt like I knew it.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And every time that I've been, it has felt like home.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even the first time I was like, I finally I finally came home.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of that is due to, you know, books.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's probably true for several readers,
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: maybe maybe many readers who grow up loving,
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know, England and London and who are Anglophiles.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: I know not everybody is that, but.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I certainly ran in circles where I would be okay with the impression
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: that everybody was just like this.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I know that's not true.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time,
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: when I went there,
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: every time,
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've never been disappointed and felt like the London of my imagination wasn't real.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really pretty neat.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's kind of echoing the same experiences I had.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you said,
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm sure a lot of it is because we've spent so much time You know,
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: quote unquote,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: living in London through the books and the characters that we've spent so much time
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: with.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: I had a very similar experience where you show up there
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: and it's just this is what you thought it would look like.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just as magical as you thought it would be in many ways.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And not just magical.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's we'll talk about there's so many elements of London.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: it ticked all the boxes that I would have expected it to and
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: yet somehow still managed to really be.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Exciting and eye-opening too.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but that feeling of home, you're right.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: I had the same experience.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's really interesting.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: I would be curious to hear, like you said, if maybe that is somewhat more of a...
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: A readerly thing.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: I know that like,
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: obviously,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: maybe those of us who have watched the BBC over the years,
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know, things like that film.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, there's some of that in there as well.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it was just Mary Poppins.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Mary Poppins.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, it was I keep saying it,
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: but I really was a little wary of just getting my expectations to be too high
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: or like, just don't overdo it.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is just a place, you know, you don't want to be disappointed.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was not a problem.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was not a problem at all.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's just a crazy city with just something to offer for so many different people.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, I don't know.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: I guess to some extent, other big cities are like that with like New York and different places.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: But what I noticed in London is something
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: that we might bring up here is despite it being obviously a huge city,
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: a world center,
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: historic and talked about all the time,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: you get into the neighborhoods and some of these different areas
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: and it's incredibly homey and cozy.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, like you said, it feels like home too.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, there is parts of it where like the hustle and bustle is very apparent.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's, you know, Oh, no.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's got its history,
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: but with London,
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: we grow up thinking about medieval London and things going on there.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: I know they're not in London,
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: but just Chaucer's Pilgrims or crowded market streets, things like that.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: The building of bridges and jousting tournaments and And all of that.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: We kind of grow up thinking about that,
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: getting into Henry VIII and Elizabethan England,
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Shakespeare's London, theaters on the South Bank.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: We've got the globe reconstructed there now.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the thing that I think is fascinating is...
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: These places are still there.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know different in some instances, but also it feels real.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't feel like you're going to Disneyland or Epcot Center and getting
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: a facade that's meant to make you kind of have an illusion of a time or a place.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to explore medieval London, you can do that in London today.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to explore Roman London, you can do that today.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: There are places to go underneath car parks where you can explore old Roman temples
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: and get a really good picture of this river village and town that starts
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: to grow up there.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: But going beyond the old to only a little bit less old, you've got Peeps London.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: With the plague and the great fire.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think of St. Paul's a lot, a lot, all the time.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: I love St. Paul's and the dome getting kind of put together at that point in time.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: You've got Dickens, London, slums and workhouses, fog.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's there.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's still there.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Sherlock Holmes, London with mystery and all the intrigue.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: You get into even, you know, I did the Bloomsbury Walk this time around with my wife.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: We went and explored that area and it felt like I was in a Virginia Woolf novel.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: It just did.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I know some of this is me projecting.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: I do understand that.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's much more complicated than maybe I'm making it sound,
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: but it felt real to be there and feel like I'm just,
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: in the London of ordinary life that I think Virginia Woolf does so well with
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: the background of all of the terror stories.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the underlying consciousness
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: that is bustling underneath everybody who's just walking around there in
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: that quieter part of town.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can go on to London at the Blitz.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of great books about that.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you can still see the scars and places in the city that were there before
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: but are not there now and the memorials due to that.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's so fun to get all of that trip through history.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's trips through reality as well.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, Virginia Woolf's London of the Everyday, Ordinary, Real.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: But you've also got...
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: London of Harry Potter,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: if you want it,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: that just kind of feels that magical as you go through some of those places
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: that they used in the films and stuff.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think the books bring a lot of that to life as well.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's even the London of Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Man, I'm bringing up a couple authors who I don't necessarily like to position.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: at any rate,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: they definitely have had an impact on me and on my imagination of London.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's this almost fantastical thing that you can find there.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't believe any of it's real.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not that kind of brain.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's just not who I am.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I love exploring it.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: I love feeling like it could be real around the corner, these other worlds.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And London works to make that feel very real as well.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't know.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can go to some of the posh neighborhoods and see all the Paddington-ish, you know, sites.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just, yeah, there's so much, so many riches there.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And in my experience, being there enriched my imagination and the books.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the books do that in reverse to where it's just one of my favorite destinations.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: I can go and sit somewhere in London and be completely content.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, that was a great,
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: great intro, a great summary, and it echoed a lot of the thoughts that I've had.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned literal layers, you know, some of the Roman ruins that exist.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's just layers,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: like the word that kept coming up for me,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: and it's one that we've talked about in a different context with the forum we used
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: to go to, but a palimpsest, you know, that idea of just layers on layers on layers.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it was one of the things my wife and I were talking about so much when we were
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: in London was just how fascinating it is the way that A city like that continues
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: to grow and change.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, there are times where that wipes out history.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what London does and some of these other ancient cities better
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: than maybe a lot of the stuff we see here in the States is leave a lot of
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: the history and grow around it.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you'll have like a modern building.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Next to this little tiny old house or something that's nestled in
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: between another newer building.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was just that idea of you just feel like history is kind
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: of accumulating in a place like London.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, that idea of a palimpsest kept coming up for me.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's layers and layers of history, but also layers and layers of stories.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, you mentioned so many of these old stories.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: They don't disappear when the new ones come along.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: They kind of all are able to coexist there.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it just builds that mythology, continues to grow and change.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And to your point,
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: you can kind of just take it as you go,
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: or you can seek out specific things that you want to find in London.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll find them.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we didn't even mention, like, you know, there's like the ghost story.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned some of the kind of the magic,
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: but there's all the ghosty alleyways and different things,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: too, that you can find that are echoed there.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: like you said,
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: we were walking along and there would just be like,
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: this building was destroyed,
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know, during the Blitz and either sometimes it was left...
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Empty or sometimes they've built something else there.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: But just as you're walking along,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: you're just face to face with all these different realities that you've seen echoed
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: in history books and in literature and things like that.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: But something else that was absolutely amazing when you think about London as
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: a literary city is just the sheer number of bookstores and people reading too.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very literate city.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that was one of the things I really enjoyed.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like I had a long list of bookstores that I Planned to pop into and I did.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: But then in addition to all those,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: you're just walking down the street and you come across,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: oh, I never even heard of that bookstore.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: We should poke our head in there.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: So there's also that.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's just there is a literary heritage there that continues.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, I know that the modern world is shaping all of us in different ways.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a modern London, there's AI billboards and all these other things too.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: But there is also just this feeling that like,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: It is still very much rooted in literature and the arts and things like that, too.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I mean, yeah, what a great place.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Can I cheat?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: So later on,
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to both be talking about three particular London books,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: but we've got to talk about other ones too to get there.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is my way of bringing up one that I would like to bring up later on,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: but don't want to push out any of my other three.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Is that okay?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean,
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine the show notes,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: if we decide to do them for this one,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: could get messy because there is going to be a lot of that, I think.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: So earlier this year, I read The Girls of Slender Means by Muriel Spark.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it takes place in both 1945 during the Blitz,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: as well as a couple of decades later in the 60s, people looking back.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: But it takes place at a club called the May of Tech Club,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: which is kind of a boarding house for young women who are of slender means.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: She says it best.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have a lot,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: but they're still part of this London in the war and have to go around and still...
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: We have jobs to do, still want to meet up with people, have meals, all that kind of stuff.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I really like how this one begins and introduces that area of London.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it was fun for me because last year when my wife and I stayed there,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: we stayed in Chelsea, but we walked all over the place.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we walked, walked, walked.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we did.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times we would walk to our place in Chelsea from South Kensington Or
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: from that area of the Victorian Albert Museum or the Prince Albert Memorial.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: That little area south of Kensington Park and that little nook of the city.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it was fun to read this earlier this year and get swooped back
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: to those neighborhoods and just picture it as it may have been.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: In the 1940s and realized that, yes, a lot has changed, but also a lot hasn't.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, those buildings, a lot of them are still there.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: But it says,
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: long ago in 1945, all the nice people in England were poor, allowing for exceptions.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: The streets of the cities were lined with buildings in bad repair or in no repair at all.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Bombsites piled with stony rubble,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: houses like giant teeth in which decay had been drilled out,
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: leaving only the cavity.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Some bomb-ripped buildings looked like the ruins of ancient castles until,
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: at a closer view,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: the wallpapers of various quite normal rooms would be visible,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: room above room, exposed as on a stage with one wall missing.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes a lavatory chain would dangle over nothing from a fourth or fifth floor ceiling.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Most of all,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: the staircases survived,
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: like a new art form leading up and up to an unspecified destination
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: that made unusual demands on the mind's eye.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: All the nice people were poor.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: At least, that was a general axiom, the best of the rich being poor in spirit.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: There was absolutely no point in feeling depressed about the scene.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: It would have been like feeling depressed about the Grand Canyon or some event of
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: the earth outside everybody's scope.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: People continued to exchange assurances of depressed feelings about the weather or
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: the news or the Albert Memorial,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: which had not been hit, not even shaken by any bomb from first to last.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And again, to me, that just brought that neighborhood alive.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: And no, it doesn't still look like that today.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: you don't walk past buildings and see just stairways and all of that,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know, rubble or whatever.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I just pictured these people walking around, again,
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: going about their day-to-day life as best they can,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: just like we were, but with those streets changed in that way.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was one of the days when I was reading this that I thought,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Paul and I have got to get a London episode out because this just feels so...
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Familiar and yet foreign.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's some kind of weird alchemy that London has on me as well.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: I have no real connection to these events or to these places.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's remote in time.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I grew up in the Western United States and I've been to London a few times,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: spent some time there, but it just feels like a big part of my life.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's through this kind of magical alchemy that comes with great writing like
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: that and And the realness of this place.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, walking around it a little bit.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's a beautiful passage.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you're exactly right.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: we talk about it all the time in more abstract terms of the power of literature
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: to make you live other lives and be in other places.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that can jump across decades or centuries to,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: like you said,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: we're not claiming that we know what it felt like,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: but when you're walking through those streets and reading and thinking about that,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's one of the amazing things that art can do.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, some of those, I mean,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: there are so many different parts of London to talk about,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: but yeah,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: just talking about that,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: you reminded me of there's some beautiful passages and tragic passages like that
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: in Kate Atkinson's Life After Life,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: where the protagonist is,
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: reincarnated multiple times and you're kind of living through these different lives.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a whole section of that book that I remember very clearly
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: where they're living through the blitz and doing some similar things
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: to what you just described,
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: where they're like,
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: More raw immediately after some of the bombing,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: going and trying to dig people out of the rubble and everything.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just crazy when you're...
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Something like that is obviously tragic anywhere,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: but the thought of bombs falling into a city,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: like when you're in London and just thinking about what that must have been like
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: and just the dense population and the history that was already there,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: it just adds a whole new layer.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's one thing to read about it,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: but then when you are actually there looking around and it's like,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: that actually happened here, it's crazy.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: just one of the things I keep coming back to with London is how big of a city it is,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: but I talked about this before,
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: but I think another thing that literature does so well is hones in
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: on specific corners, specific lives.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the themes that I was noticing as I was thinking about books
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: in London is just in this bigger city,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: you are often kind of taken into this The specific neighborhood,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: the specific household, the specific life.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that kind of juxtaposition
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: of this huge bustling historic city that's been around forever,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: but there's all these little lives that are still taking place every day there.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I just, I love thinking about that.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not attention, it's just the reality of what it is, but I really like that too.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, beautiful passage.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was hard for me to try to figure out the answer to this question I'm about to ask you.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: So don't ask me.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm about to be put on the spot.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a conversation starter that I don't necessarily think that either one
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: of us, if asked this question, will always feel like it's the same answer.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: But is there a London book?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't think my answer will be very different from many people.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think I know it.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know the author,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: but I don't know, like, I would say probably A Christmas Carol.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Dickens in general, for sure.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I think my earliest introduction would be,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember specifically, it was probably one of the old black and white films.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Not Mickey?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or Mickey.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it could have been Mickey too.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: I was trying to be highbrow, but yeah, it probably was Mickey.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: that would definitely be one where it just started to,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: I just remember various iterations of Scrooge walking down those kind
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: of like narrow cobblestone streets towards his home or,
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: the Albert Finney Scrooge that I really love,
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: the musical version of him,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: like walking over these kind of like canals on these creaky bridges.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it's just all foggy and dirty and everything like that.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Completely captured my imagination very early.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: The other one that comes to mind immediately would probably be The Lion,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: the Witch and the Wardrobe,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: even though it's mostly not set there when the kids all get kind of carted out to
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: the country because of the bombing going on and the dangers.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think I remember that being also like just kind of one
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: of my first formative memories that I can remember about London of just this idea
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: of,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: these city kids getting Taken off to this magical countryside and kind of
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: that juxtaposition too.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: So those are a couple that come to mind for me.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: But you know me, it's Dickens, Dickens, Dickens would probably be my answer.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: How about you?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think probably something like A Christmas Carol as well.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that actually makes me wonder if London is just...
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: I do think there's a lot going on for London,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: but did they just have a really great marketing because they also got latched
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: to Christmas in such magical ways?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many London Christmas stories.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, we have A Christmas Carol that many of us...
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Many of us probably grew up thinking London was magical, even the slums.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Tiny Tim, oh, I would love to live with them.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, no, no, that was not the point.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: But there is something magical and lovely that
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And hopeful about even that London that Dickens created.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I've had the opportunity to be there over the holidays.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And And yeah, it's great.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love going up on...
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the buildings there, the Courtauld Institute.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember the name of it.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: But at any rate,
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: up at the top,
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: they often put ice down so you can go and skate around on the top of the building.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's lovely.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: It really does feel magical.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a big deal.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: It was a big deal.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Christmas is a big deal in many places, but London...
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of getting the streets and people decorating and thinking about it,
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: it rivals where I live.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think it beats us.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Even when I was there over October this last year, people were definitely ready for Halloween.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: It felt more Halloween-y than I remembered it 20 years before when I was there over Halloween.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: But people were getting ready for Christmas too.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do wonder how much of this is that London often creeped up in our lives
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: at Christmas time and just the magic of childhood and Christmas.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there's this magical place in the world called London.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Part of it's that we didn't live there and couldn't get there,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: but it was just some magical faraway land that the Lion,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: the Witch and the Wardrobe also feels very Christmassy.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think for sure.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think, yeah, London has done a great job of marketing or latching onto that.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, obviously Dickens kind of transformed Christmas through some of his writing.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: there's whole essays about how he kind of like launched this This Christmas idea
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: into kind of what it's become today.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, it might have fallen into their laps, but they've done a good job.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't a book, but you mentioned Mary Poppins.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously that whole scene with- It is a book, right?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just- Oh, that's true.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, good point.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I guess what I think of is the movie.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're right though.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: How short-sighted of me.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, but I think of that,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: you said St.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Paul's like,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: the Feed the Birds,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Tuppence the Bag,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: like that whole scene,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: like When I was walking by there,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was like,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: oh man, I know it's a movie, but that's so cool that that was right here.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so watching that at an early impressionable age too,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: there's just a magic to that
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: that resonates with you and kind of builds on that.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: It is a mythos for sure.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not naive enough to think that the way that we view it is anywhere near to
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: the defining way to view it,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: but it does build up in your head all these different Things as we grow up
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: and like you said,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a lot to it being this distant kind of magical place that,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: especially in the early part of your life,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: definitely for me was a big influence on the way I view the city.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of want before we even get into our books to maybe I put down a list
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: of various I don't want to spoil any of our of our books.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe let's get to the list later that I've got put together here of a variety of London types.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: They may pop up as we go through it.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: But let's take a little break from some London talk.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: I failed to do this at the start,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: but I think it's a good time to take a little break, a little business here.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, get to some of the podcasty stuff.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: First off, over on the Discord, we are reading the last of our novellas for 2026.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: It is Prelude by Catherine Mansfield.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And this, by the time this episode goes out, we'll have already read it and been discussing it.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: But anybody is welcome to pop in over there and read those discussions
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: and contribute to them,
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: even if it's Even if it's 10 years from now and those are still somehow available,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Always happy to hear that.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one thing we've got going on.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: But also Paul and I just started a new segment of our big NYRB Classics year.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we've been reading.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is the answer to what have you been reading, Paul?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: What have you been reading, Trevor?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there are other things in the mix, but definitely this book.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you talk a little bit about it?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, for Q4,
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: our big NYRB book that we chose is A Fortunate Man by Henrik Pontopidon,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: translated by Paul Larkin from the Danish.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've hinted at it a couple of times in previous episodes, but...
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: once again,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: I've already confessed to you, Trevor,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing that thing again where,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're taking a more measured approach like you often do with big books.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: That was my original plan, but this one swept me in.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: It is, boy, it is just really, I'm loving it so far.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's about, it's, boy, it's hard to even talk about.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: The story of this guy named Per Sedenas,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: and he's the son of a Lutheran pastor, um,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: They're kind of in the countryside near Copenhagen,
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think is pretty close to where they are.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's basically just a buildings Roman starting very early in his life,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: tracing his roots and his parents a little bit.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then it just,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: I know that I'm a little,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: or quite a bit further along than you, Trevor,
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: so I don't want to give any spoilers,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: but then it just continues to kind of expand and follow him as he goes off and tries
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: to make his mark in the world.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just...
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: comparing something to David Copperfield is always dangerous because I'm not,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm only about halfway through this one and I'm not claiming it to be that level.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, I know it's considered to be his masterpiece.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: It is a masterpiece of Danish literature and one that is kind of in their national,
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know, sight lines for one of their great pieces of art.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I can totally see why.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's just,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: it captures The time it captures,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of the kind of industrial revolution type of things that are starting
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: to happen around that time with like expansion and ways to kind
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: of harness different natural powers and that tension that creates in it.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's so far,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: there's a lot between kind of like the,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: the practical scientific view of life versus like his upbringing in
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: a very religious household and all of that.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, but there's just layers on layers to this book.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm absolutely loving it so far, but how are you finding it so far?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, really enjoying it.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: I am about 90 pages in.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of, you know, in terms of my 10 pages a day, right on target.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: I can see that this may be one where I keep on speeding,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know, further and faster as I build up that momentum.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I'm enjoying it.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: So Per has left home and he's kind of finding his way to,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: He's basically telling people that he has no home,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: he's an orphan, and meeting up with various people who don't really know him.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: He wants to give off this aura of being happy-go-lucky and on his way to great things.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: But he doesn't feel that way in his heart.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: But people do fall for the illusion.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Here's someone that he's meeting.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is on page 77.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: But they get into a conversation about what fortune means.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure this is going to be central to the book because they're talking there
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: and it says...
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: There is an old saying that good fortune is the preserve of fools.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: And an esteemed Latin author wrote that luck is the begetter of sorrow.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And as they go on,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: this individual says,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: My belief,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: despite my aversion to paradoxes,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: is that luck itself is actually the greatest turn of ill luck that could ever affect
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: a human being because...
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: because we human beings in 999 cases out of a thousand lack the ability to make sure
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: that our great fortune does not do us more harm than good.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, I am very much enjoying it.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: I've been reading it as I'm going on a walk.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've been reading it in the evenings and it's been a great week so far
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: because really, you know, it's Friday, October 9th.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been reading it for nine days, basically a week and I've really enjoyed it.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's a great quote.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's just, it's really fascinating.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: It does a great job of capturing some very timely,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: time-specific things about that Part of the world and then other parts as he kind
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: of moves along.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: But also I think it does a good job of capturing some kind of universal tensions,
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: like I said,
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: kind of logic and science versus religion or like the uprising of youth versus kind
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: of the older conservative types who maybe want to keep things
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: the way it's always been, whether it comes to business or politics or other things.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: I would say compared to the other books that we've read this year in our kind
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: of big book series, To me,
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: this one is the most,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: readable if that's the right word,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: but you stick basically with one or a few characters and kind of follow them
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: through.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're not jumping around like we have found in a couple of other books,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: which we both talked about has its own power,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: but maybe is sometimes a little bit harder to keep up with.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: This one is just,
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think part of what's captured me is it's just like,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: you're just with him and a few other people and just kind of flowing along
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: with their lives.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm excited.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: you kind of were apologetic on a Marco Polo to me saying, oh,
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not doing it the way we're supposed to,
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: which of course is,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know, something we can say in fun, but not even close to the point.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: The point is to read these and figure out the best way to do it for us in the moment.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: And for me,
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: it has meant something to go,
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: I can take my time with these But certainly that does not have to be the way or
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: the right way or anything like that.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I think for me and for a lot of people,
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: it might be a good way to fit in some of these big books without feeling like, oh,
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: this is you know, this is I also want to read these other books that are coming out.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's prize season.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: there's all these big books on the National Book Award list or the Booker Prize list
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: or these great books are coming out.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: How can I stop to read, you know, this big Danish book?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, You don't have to stop to read it.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: You just keep reading it over time and you'll get to the end of it eventually.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a great way.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, if the book sweeps you up, then you let it take you for the ride it wants to.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: You don't resist that, Paul.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you're not resisting.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm definitely not.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it is exactly what you described.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: It just depends on the book and what's working for you at the time because some of
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: the other big ones and other big ones we've read outside of this project,
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: the slow and steady paces worked perfectly.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think it's just fun to kind of let each book kind of speak to you.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the fun thing about this project is you and I,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: as we come towards the end of this four books that we've read over the course
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: of this year, rather than like, okay, thank God we're almost done.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, You and I have already been chatting like, oh, for next year, what should we do?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we already have some ideas percolating.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's always a fun and good sign that we're already planning ahead.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Should we get back to London now?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always happy to go back to London.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: Also, don't resist it, right?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Don't resist that invitation.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'll talk to you in eight hours when we get off the flight.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to do this like we used to do,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: but we've kind of fallen out of the habit of each of us bringing three or,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know, ish.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Paul always cheats.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I've already cheated in this episode, but three-ish books to discuss round robin style.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: To kind of expand our discussion about London and focus on a few that we want
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: to highlight in some way.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: like I said a few minutes ago,
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a whole list that might be a fun way to end the episode and see where
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: that takes us.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Just to acknowledge that this is inexhaustible.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: But let's dig in now for a moment.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd love to hear what your first one you want to bring up is, Paul.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we had talked about,
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to talk about specific books,
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: but in some cases we might just hint at some of these authors.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just one book, but an author who writes really well about London.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: So the first one I wanted to bring up is Patrick Hamilton.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: The specific book I was going to mention is 20,000 Streets Under the Sky,
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: which is the only one of his I've read so far.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: But he also has other ones, including Hangover Square, which are very much interesting.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I'll talk specifically about the one that I've read,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: which is 20,000 Streets Under the Sky.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's set kind of right between the wars in London, right around 1930.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's made up of these three interconnected novellas that are focused on just
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: a handful of Londoners and specifically around this pub that's known as
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: the Midnight Bell.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so the three characters, Bob is a waiter at the pub.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Ella is a barmaid there.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's a third character, Jenny, who's a prostitute who regularly visits the pub.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so over the course of these books or book,
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: however you want to look at it,
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: it kind of turns into this love triangle of sorts between the three of them.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: As so often is the case with love triangles,
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: that might not be completely accurate because there's differing feelings depending
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: on who you talk to.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: But that's one of the powerful things about this book is Each novella is from
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: the perspective of one of the different characters,
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: and it completely alters the way you view all of their relationships.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: It throws things on its head,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: really complicates and messes with the way you're thinking about it,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: which I think is just amazing.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: One of the really cool things that this book does,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: and I think one of the reasons I wanted to choose it for a London book,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: is it focuses on a big part of English culture and London culture,
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: which is the nightlife and pub life of London.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's another thing I didn't talk about in our intro,
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: but in addition to bookstores, on every block you will find roughly 12 to 30 pubs.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, not literally,
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: but I mean,
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: there's just pubs everywhere in London,
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: and that was a lot of fun to go around there and Have a pint and some fish and chips
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: and different things.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: But this does a really good job of capturing that.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't glamorize it.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're with these folks who, to them, this is kind of their daily life.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's a little bit of a drudgery to it.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Routines that they do every day.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're hard workers.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: They're working behind the bar and dealing with clients and things like that.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: But like I said,
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: the three different stories from different perspectives is just really fascinating
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: because your understanding of both the people and their relationships keeps kind
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: of shifting.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: Throughout the book,
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: something that you feel very sure of during one of
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: the novellas becomes much more complicated when you see it through the eyes of one
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: of the other characters.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I talked a little bit about the idea of a huge city,
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: but then how it's made up of these very small, sometimes repetitive lives.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is just perfect at that.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: A couple of really quick quotes just to give people an idea of just the feel of this book.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: Here's one that kind of introduces the pub,
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: it says,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Though it had no wide reputation, all manner of people frequented the midnight bell.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: This was in its nature,
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: since it is notorious that all manner of people frequent all manner
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: of public houses, which in this respect resemble railway stations and madhouses.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then it skips ahead to another part.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Those entering the saloon bar of the midnight bell from the street came through
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: a large door with a fancifully frosted glass pane,
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: a handle like a dumbbell, a brass inscription, saloon, bar, and lounge.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: And a brass adjuration to push.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Anyone temperamentally so willful,
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: careless,
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: or incredulous as to ignore this friendly admonition was instantly snubbed,
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: for this door would only succumb to pushing.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Nevertheless,
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: hundreds of temperamental people nightly argued with this door and got the worst
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: of it.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: Given proper treatment,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: however,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: it swung back in the most accomplished way and announced you to the saloon bar with
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: a welcoming creak.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I just really like that.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit of a, you know, there's some humanity and humor to this book as well.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: This idea of people in various states of intoxication trying to,
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: make their way into the pub and not getting the door to cooperate,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: I thought was pretty funny.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, but yeah,
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: anyways,
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: it's just a beautiful little book and honestly,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thinking about it, I was like, why have I not read?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: I have a couple others from Patrick Hamilton.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I haven't read them yet, but I also want to reread this one.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Have you read it, Trevor?
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: I've got it.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've got The Slaves of Solitude, both from- Oh yeah, that's another one I didn't mention.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: And Hangover Square.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: I do have that too,
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: because Europa Editions published it some time ago, but I've never read them.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I've always wanted to, because Patrick Hamilton- Is behind a couple of great movies.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: He's the one who wrote Rope that Alfred Hitchcock made into a movie and Gaslight.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I know that it's there.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: A quick question for you.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is it seedy London?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've always had that impression,
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Game Over Square,
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: 20,000 Streets Under the Sea, Slaves of Solitude and the Pub Life and Nightlife.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: And the pictures that are on these covers make it look like a little bit of
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: the London of the Outsider or CD London.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just kind of, because I haven't read him, I'm curious about that impression.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: I would say so.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: I would say it doesn't shy away from the seedy side of London.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's been a while, I'll admit, since I read it.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: My remembrance of it is that it definitely does focus on that,
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: the people who are doing the daily jobs,
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: like I said,
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: a barkeep or somebody who might live in a little flat,
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: tiny little room or something like that.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, yes, seedy and the drudgery of it, but...
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: My memory of it is that it also has a humanity and a warmth to it.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not seedy in a way of like, look how gross or can you believe people live like this?
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's very much like these people are born into this life
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: and this is how they make their life and they fall in love
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: and they have conversations and they have friendships and things like that.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it is set in a seedy environment,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: but I wouldn't say that my memory of it is not that the characters are like,
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of judged in that way or viewed to that lens completely, if that makes sense.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that's, I mean, I've had these books for like 25 years.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose it's time I get to them.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I love them.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: My wife read this earlier this year and also just completely loved it too.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel pretty confident in saying that you would definitely get a lot out of them.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, I'm speaking only from the one while I have the other two sitting there.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: No excuse for me not to have read them other than our usual excuse.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a good excuse.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think you've tried the book that I'm about to bring up.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you've finished the series,
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: but earlier,
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it was last,
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: maybe it was even a couple of years ago,
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: our friend Kate from the Book Review podcast read these.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: But one of my favorite aspects of London,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: and probably still goes back to something like A Christmas Carol,
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: So is the haunting aspect of it.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you've got the great Highgate Cemetery.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you had a chance to go there, Paul.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you didn't, make it a destination on your next one.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't, but I don't want to.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: It is an amazing place.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: you've got these big buildings that when you go into them,
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: they still feel a little haunted, like Westminster Abbey.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you've got all these...
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: Graves of kings and queens and poets.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's like just this place of all these quiet voices.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so I love the idea of haunted London.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: this one of my favorite series that I've read in
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: a long time is Jonathan Stroud's Lockwood and Co.,
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: Which is a, you know, I guess they're kind of YA, middle grade.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know exactly what age they would be, but their ghost story set in London.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a London that's been a little bit of arrested in the 1940s to 50s
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: with its technology and look and feel because at around that time there was
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: a ghost outbreak.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: Some rift between the living and the dead has come undone,
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: and children can see the ghosts,
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: but as you get older,
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: you stop being able to see them, but the ghosts are still very dangerous.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: So consequently, these children are exceptionally valuable as ghost hunters.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: Very dangerous job.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: They're the ones who have to go out at night and and hunt ghosts.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: It seems seems like,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: if you've watched like that Mickey Mouse cartoon with Mickey,
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: Donald and Goofy hunting ghosts and oh, you know, but it is very spooky.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the characters.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: I love the voice that Jonathan Stroud gives to them.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: I love this alternative London that, again, it's not real.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: But wandering around London at night, you can feel where it comes from.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: You can feel like it's not that far away from reality.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: these young protagonists running a business and it's what they do to make money,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: let alone keep the city safe.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: And It's just so fun to kind of enter into that world of hauntings and spirits and
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: the traumatic past of this place that looks beautiful sometimes.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: This old manor or this old,
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: even shopping centers and stuff are dangerous in this world in Lockwood and Co.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's one of my favorite London books.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if This past time when we went to London,
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: looking around the corner, I can see these places that they might have to go to.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: We had a call on this.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's a ghost that's out and about, dangerous.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: And what type of ghost is it going to be?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: And how are we going to take it out?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: And how are we going to prepare for it?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I also like that Lockwood & Co.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: Both is in the city,
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: takes place within London and within the politics of London and
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: the financial markets of London.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: But also,
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: they'll get calls from these homes that are on the outskirts,
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: little country places that people are not very far away from London.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it just makes this whole area feel alive to the point where when I'm reading it,
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that London is where the center of this outbreak is.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, he doesn't bring up what's going on in the US or Asia with these ghosts.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Are they a problem there too?
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: And if not, why aren't they helping?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if so, boy, what a wacky thing.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: Just all these things,
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't care because the whole world is London and that's fine for me.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's a great point.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it kind of ties into that whole idea of layers and palimpsest that we talked
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: about is a city as ancient as London.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: There's just no ignoring, like you said, that you're built on top of...
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so thinking about all these other lives that have taken place there
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: and all these other deaths is a big part of that.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I didn't make it to the big cemetery,
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: but like even when we were walking around Bloomsbury and we were just poking around
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: in a few of the parks that like Virginia Woolf had been around.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like in an otherwise normal to me park along the edge of the stone wall,
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: there would just be like really old gravestones just right there.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think there's that idea of there's just no getting away from the fact in
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: a city like London of all these lives and deaths that have taken place in
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: the history.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like the soccer field is right there,
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: but like over in the corner,
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: there's some gravestones that are like, you know, 150 years old.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great pick.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: I need to get back to those.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: I only read the first one and really enjoyed it, but that's a good reminder.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: Need to get back into that world.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's a fun one.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: And they do to me, as is often the case, get better and better as you dig deeper and deeper.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, get back to it.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: I have heard, I've not tried the audiobooks.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: I have heard they're of mixed quality and decreasing quality as you go on.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's too bad.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: I've read them twice, once to myself, once to my two oldest kids.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's time to read them to my two youngest.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've been thinking about that.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, perfect.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: Should I move on to my next one?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Once again, I'll kind of talk about a specific book, but it's more about an author.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's one that I've talked about before.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you're a fan too, Trevor, is Barbara Pym.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's a couple that I was going to just touch on.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: So Excellent Women is one that we've talked about.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: It was a couple of years ago, I think, that we really dug in on that one.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: But that's kind of set in post-war London,
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: features a lot of churches and This idea of these quote-unquote excellent women
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: who are leading these quiet lives,
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: often around churches and making everything run,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: but they don't necessarily get the credit that they deserve.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that one is just a beautiful book,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: and it gets into all kinds of crazy hijinks when different ripples are thrown into
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: the lives of one of these excellent women.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've talked about this book a lot before.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: My favorite so far of Barbara Pimm's is still A Quartet in Autumn.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: Or not A Quartet, but Quartet in Autumn.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: And this one is set later.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's in the early 60s.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of a different form of maybe mundane London, I guess.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like I talked about kind of the bar keeps and things.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's one side and a different part of history.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: But this is Quiet Lives in a different way.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: These group of four people there.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I said it's in the 60s.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I would.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: Die on that hill.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: I can't, I don't know when, I can't remember when it was set.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: But the people are aging and they're working in a London office.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: They've worked together for years.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it just captures kind of that office life in London of a certain period
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: that I think we can all relate to, to some point or another.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: They know each other well enough,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: in the office they pass and,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: they kind of know that version of each other,
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: but they don't know much about their,
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: each other's private lives or anything like that.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're all getting to the point where their careers are kind of coming to an end
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: and they're trying to figure out what they're going to do next.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's four of them,
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: as you would guess from the title, Letty, Marsha, Edwin and Norman.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: And they all have their different approaches to the world and also
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: to like what's going to come next.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they're they're eccentric in some ways or boring or like they're they're just people.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: What I think Pim does so well in most of her books is like she presents them
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: and I would say fairly sympathetically but like warts and all she presents them
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: but she doesn't really judge them.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: She lets the little ways that they interact with each other or the ways
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: that we get little glimpses of their life kind of speak for themselves
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: and let us kind of form our own But yeah,
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say like a lot of her books,
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: it's funny,
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: but there's also some real melancholy and sadness to it too,
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: as you would expect from a book about quiet lives.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: They're aging, they're becoming more isolated and outdated.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: Their worlds are kind of getting smaller as they move along,
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: but she still gives them kind of the attention and respect
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: that I think they deserve.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: this is another one that's not necessarily like the Up in lights London of like,
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: the stuff that you might recognize,
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: it's just offices and flats and buses and daily routines.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know, I just think it's one of the most beautiful little books I've ever read.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: And she's another one where I've read Excellent Women.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I read at least one other one of hers, but it's same thing.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think some of it's just savoring and keeping some of them For the future,
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: but I plan on getting into more of her books too.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I think she's a great London writer.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm with you.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: I have not read a bunch of her books.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've only read a few and always think I need to do more.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: It looks like NYRB Classics might be continuing to put out a few now and again.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they'll get around to a big chunk of them like they've done with Elizabeth Taylor.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: I hope so.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's my hope.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because they did The Sweet Dove Die just fairly recently.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: That was the most recent of hers that came out.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: Are they doing another one?
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good question.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you're right.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I know the answer.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: While you're thinking about it or looking it up, I will just amend my earlier thing.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the 60s of London.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's the 70s, 1970.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I wasn't too far off.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: I knew it was a little bit more modern, but...
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: At this point where we are in 2026,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: it still has a nostalgic feel, but not quite back to the war years.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I kind of like some of those books that,
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: London has had some of the quieter periods that we may not hear about quite as much
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: to that are like there were still lives that were taking place then.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer is yes,
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: they are releasing A Few Green Leaves, which is one of her posthumous books.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: Next March is what it's slated for, March 2nd, 2027.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's exciting.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that that's just the beginning.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: I would love it if, like you said, if they could somehow swing it to get all of them.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: Keep them coming.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because right now I have lots of assorted,
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know, whatever you find in the US bookstore or that you order online.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's a whole different hodgepodge,
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: which I kind of like,
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: but it would obviously be lovely to have those beautiful MRBs too.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, I agree.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: All right, are you ready for my next one?
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: I am ready.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: And this is another one.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: I can almost say the same thing.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think you have started this series and maybe you've even done the whole thing.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: And Kate, our friend, is a big fan.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: And these books are blowing up right now.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: The author, Beth Brower, just got picked up by UK publishers.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I see her all over.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like a lot of people are reading her books.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks to you.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, you're welcome.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure your check is in the mail, your commission.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, they're so good.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: These are the unselected journals of Emma M. Lyon.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: And they take place in a fictional neighborhood of London, St. Crispian's.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: But it's up by kind of the northern part of London, up by Primrose Hill.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's where Emma goes for walks sometimes.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it feels like those neighborhoods.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: Again, when my wife and I went to London this past year,
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: we made it a point where To go into Emma's neighborhoods and walk around there.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: It also happens to be Paddington kind of stuff is up there too.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: But this was specifically to walk around in those environments,
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: get a good walk up Primrose Hill,
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: take some pictures, just enjoy that area, which is also magical.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: Emma M. Lyon is a young woman And she's just about to reach the age of majority,
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: a big part of the books.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_01: And she's had quite the life.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: But when the first volume starts, it's her journal.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: She has returned to London,
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: to a home that she has inherited,
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: but that her uncle still,
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: or I guess her cousin,
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: cousin Archibald,
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: still inhabits and has the right to inhabit And she feels like,
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: well, I'll let that be.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: So she deals with that.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: But this is the 1880s.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: The war in Afghanistan has been going on.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: It has affected her life directly.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: And this is like Sherlock Holmes time period, London,
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know, with Watson also being wounded in Afghanistan, various things like that.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: But And also, you know, Baker Street is kind of Northern London.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: This is a different part still.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it is a very different feel.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is a little bit formal, a little bit wistful.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's eccentric.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: But so warm and inviting.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: This is the London that you're talking about the pubs.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is the London of neighborhoods that come together and look out for one another.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: It also kind of feels a little like Anthony Trollope.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: You've got the various personalities that are a little bit extreme, but also very familiar.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: The people you love, the people that you're like, oh, not again.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: the people that exasperate you in their way and they're your neighbors,
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_01: so dang it, they're not going anywhere.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: You've got all of that intrigue and you've got Emma's voice,
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: just an intelligent, clever,
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: always to me interesting with her perspectives and her way of getting around
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: and navigating all of this.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_01: These are fantastic and fantastic London books because she goes about London,
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: even though it's not the real London.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: There are ghosts, but not really.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of not.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the things I love about it is that St. Crispian's is a little bit magical.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: But if you weren't reading too closely, you wouldn't ever know it.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's just people,
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_01: there's a ghost of a Roman soldier,
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: going back to London's Roman past, that some people have seen.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: Emma never has, but every once in a while, someone's seen it and they're gasping.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really there.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think there really is like it's not just a thing that the neighbors see.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think there is good evidence that this is just a real thing.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing is that people's items will just sometimes disappear and and
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's where you go if you've lost something, it's probably there.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a little note saying who found it and where.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: No one's going around thieving everything.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the way things happen in this part of the world.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: But it also feels very real.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's very fun and funny.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: I would enjoy it for all of that,
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: but there is a deep emotional current to it,
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: deep heartache, deep poetic yearning that goes into grief.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: It is well done.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's a reason that these books have caught on like fire.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: even I just see I see people bringing them up almost on a on a whim that,
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: oh, I'm reading M.M.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: Lyon now and they're like famous celebrities.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just yeah.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think we'll be seeing a lot more of these over the years.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's been interesting to watch that rise because I first heard about them
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: through you and Kate, obviously, and didn't really know much.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then I kind of dipped my toe and read the first one and I liked it.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I then I kind of it took a while.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: Since then,
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: I've caught up with the whole series and just Really gotten enmeshed in it,
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: but it's been fascinating to see it kind of explode because like you said,
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: it started out seemingly fairly quiet.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: But another thing that you did a great job of summarizing it,
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think another thing that it touches on that we haven't talked about with London is
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: the idea of class and upbringing and how,
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know, there's different ways.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Dickens and many people have covered this,
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: but like if you're born into a certain station,
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_00: it is nigh impossible to I think one of the things I would tell people
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: with those is...
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: Often I think the first book captures people.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: It did capture me, but I wasn't quite sure where it was going to go.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I would just say if you read the first book
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: and you're still not completely sold,
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: give it another chance and keep going because I think those books build
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_00: in complexity, in nuance, in just complications of everything going on.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think they just get richer and richer as you move along.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be my little plug too.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: She has a Substack where,
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_01: she gives updates and all of that, but also kind of a separate paid substack.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a subscription,
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: but I bought one for my wife,
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: where she publishes the St.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: Crispian's Gazette,
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: which goes into little short stories about side characters or other things.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not someone who thinks that that's always just a great thing.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: I want to read every little side story,
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: every backstory of these characters,
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: but she creates a world so effectively that And she,
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: Beth Brower, has such a tenderness towards these characters that they're worthwhile.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it is, it is, you know, you don't necessarily want to leave.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just a fun way to kind of drip in context.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need them.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need them.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I haven't read most of them.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_01: My wife likes them and tells me a little bit about them,
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: but you don't need them to enjoy the books by any means.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_01: But A lot of people have found that St. Crispian's feels like home.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so if I can get a little update on my neighbor down the street or get
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: to know them a little bit better, then I should do that.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to move on.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: But the last thing I'll say is like,
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: If any part of it sounds a little bit twee to somebody or
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_00: that is something they fear,
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_00: because I will admit that there was a little part of me that was like,
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if this is just kind of a little bit,
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what the right word is,
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_00: but again,
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think the further into it you read,
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: you brought it up,
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: there's so much more about And there's a darkness within these books
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_00: while still maintaining everything that you said that I think adds a lot
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: of texture there that prevents it from becoming what I feared it could be,
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: I guess, if that makes sense.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you felt that way at all, Trevor,
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_00: but like if there was any anybody out there who's like, ah,
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: the premise sounds OK, but I'm afraid they might be a little bit not for me.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: Just give them a try.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's worth a try because I think there's a lot more there than I personally thought.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're not simplistic.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, they're not.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_01: But they could maybe come across that way as just a lark or something like that.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_00: And Genevieve Gaunt does an amazing job on the audiobooks.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just put in a plug for her.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: She does the characters really well.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: She's awesome.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that's another way somebody could always give them a try if they'd like to.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, Helen Mirren was interviewed.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the questions that they asked her was,
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_01: who's an up and coming young actor or actress that you'd like to work with?
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, oh, I'm listening to these amazing books, the Unselected Journals of M.M.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: Lyon.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: They're being read by just a marvelous young actress, Genevieve Gaunt.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: And for either someone who loves the book or for her as a reader, that's a big deal.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: It shows, I think, where these books are penetrating.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, for sure.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_00: And there's little clips on Instagram and elsewhere of her reading them
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_00: if anybody wants to do a little sample.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's cool to see the video of her actually doing it.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite an art and she does a great job.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: We better move on, Paul.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: We better move on.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get to yours.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: We can get to St.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: Crispian's again later,
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: either through rereads, but book nine comes out next like February, I think.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: Be on the lookout for that.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was trying to think of,
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: there's so many that we'll hit on at the end here and that we've already talked
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: about that are, I've mentioned them so many times, so many London books that I love.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was trying to think of something that was outside that I don't think I've talked about before.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I finally came up with one that I don't know that I've ever mentioned it before.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's called Uncommon Reader by Alan Bennett.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: I...
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even remember how I came across this one.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've not read any of his other stuff.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know he's well regarded,
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: but it is very much unlike anything that we've talked about so far,
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would say,
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_00: in that it's a really funny little book that is basically set in the early 2000s
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: and it centers around Queen Elizabeth II.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's basically a modern day novel.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it touches on something else that we haven't really covered,
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: a big part of London,
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: the royals, the pomp and circumstance, the Buckingham Palace and all of that stuff.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people get pulled into the crown or all these things.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've never personally, I really liked the crown.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_00: I thought they did a really good job,
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_00: but I will admit I don't really follow or know anything about the royals.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_00: But this book, I think, is just a really Surprisingly smart approach to this book.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the premise is that Queen Elizabeth is going about her daily duties.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_00: She's doing what she does, the pomp and circumstance, the formality, all of that stuff.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_00: One day she accidentally discovers a little mobile library and almost out
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: of like obligation or like it's kind of awkward.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_00: So she borrows a book just like, OK, I'm here.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: I might as well do this.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_00: And she's never read really much in her life.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_00: She sits down and reads this book and becomes an obsessive reader.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: And this book, it's endearing.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not as simplistic as it sounds, just like we were just talking about.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: But you're basically watching this very public person who has never really thought
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_00: of themselves as a reader discover the joys of reading and all they can add
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_00: to your life.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_00: She's been the queen her whole life.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_00: And she just does things because it's like, this is what I have to do.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_00: This is my job.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_00: But reading becomes what it is for many of us,
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_00: this other part of her life where she can form her own opinions,
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_00: preferences, obsessions.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_00: She starts discovering writers that she loves, writers that she can't stand.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: And not to get too far into it,
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_00: but eventually she starts even questioning bigger things about her life and the way
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_00: that things have always been.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's just another one of those that could have been,
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_00: maybe not for me,
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_00: but I think Bennett just does a really good job of,
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: he doesn't turn it into a big joke about what it could have been,
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_00: like a public figure who we all have different opinions about or whatever,
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_00: but it is about her,
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: but in many ways,
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: it's more about the idea of what reading can do to any of our lives.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's a couple of little quotes,
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: but there's one that I thought,
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_00: it said, the appeal of reading, she thought, lay in its indifference.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_00: There was something undeferring about literature.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_00: Books did not care who was reading them or whether one read them or not.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_00: All readers were equal, herself included.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_00: Literature, she thought, is a commonwealth.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_00: Letters, a republic.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not all quite as on the nose as that,
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_00: but I just thought that that was a good summary of kind of the general theme
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: of what this book offers.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_00: it's just,
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_00: it's a pretty quick little book and Like I said,
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_00: it's not necessarily in line with stuff I would normally read,
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm really glad I did read it.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought it just brought up some different parts of London in a different book
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_00: and author than I would normally think about.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have read that one.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I do remember where I first heard about it.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_01: It was on John Self's blog in the very, very earliest of early days.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's funny.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably exactly where I heard about it, too.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been a long time since I read it,
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_01: but he notes here that the first book that she finds is an Ivy Compton Burnett book.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_01: I had not read any Ivy Compton Burnett at the time.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Me either.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_01: But the book that gets her kind of hooked is Nancy Mitford's The Pursuit of Love,
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: which recently I read last year, I believe, and absolutely adored it as well.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_01: So at the time,
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know the books that she was reading that were making her fall in love,
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_01: but I remember still really enjoying the story.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And having fun with this one.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Paul, my last one won't surprise you at all.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess I could say that about probably a dozen authors and you wouldn't be surprised.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there's so many.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_01: There just are so many.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_01: But this one won't be quite like your Alan Bennett pick.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to highlight Anita Bruckner because many of her books take place in London,
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_01: in London neighborhoods.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_01: They mention specific addresses.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_01: They mention specific places.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_01: You could take a walk around all places in London.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_01: You can see a great deal of London if you just wanted to follow the books.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thomas, hogglestock.com has actually put together a website on Bruckner's London
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_01: that you can see.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Look at and find a bunch of these addresses and which books they're in,
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_01: what the passages are from.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was in London last year, I brought this up before, so this isn't anything new.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_01: But back in 2016, Penguin over there.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And published kind of white editions,
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know, black and white photography on the front of her books.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, I need to grab those.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I purchased eight of them and got them imported.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then just never quite got around to the others and was always like,
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know, I want to get the rest of them, but I haven't done that yet.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I made it a point when we were there last year to try to find all of the ones
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_01: that I was missing.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I did,
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_01: thanks to John Sandoe books and foils on Charing Cross,
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was able to get all of them.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember sitting there in our room,
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_01: it was close to Sloan Square in Chelsea, and thinking, I need to start one of these.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_01: It just feels too good to just now have them and then wait several years before I begin them.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see how they all begin.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so many of them begin by talking about various addresses in London.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I came across Brief Lives, which I had not read before.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the very first paragraph,
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_01: it mentions a chilly flat in Onslow Square,
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_01: which I had been walking past almost every day while we were there
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_01: because it was just a very short few blocks away.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_01: A little farther away than John Sandow books, but not by far.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, no, all right, Brief Lives it is.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And man, I loved Brief Lives.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I loved getting back to Bruckner because it had been a long time since I had read any.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_01: To focus on the book for a moment and not so much on London itself, here's how it begins.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Julia died.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_01: I read it in the Times this morning.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_01: There was quite a substantial obituary,
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_01: but what immediately fixed my attention was the photograph,
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_01: one of those studio portraits of the late 1930s or early 1940s,
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_01: all huge semi-transparent eyes, flat hair and dark lipstick.
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_01: I never liked her, nor did she like me.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Strange then how we managed to keep up a sort of friendship for so long.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Had our husbands not been partners,
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: I doubt whether we should ever have exchanged more than a few words
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_01: or seen each other on more than a few formal occasions,
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_01: although we were for quite some time in the same line of work.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_01: As things turned out,
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_01: we were in fairly close contact and even spent a couple of holidays together after
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_01: the war.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_01: I can see us now,
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_01: strolling along Riviera esplanades in white pleated skirts,
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_01: our husbands chatting behind us.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_01: It must be years since I was last in Nice.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_01: It holds no pleasant memories for me.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Julia was older than me by nearly eleven years,
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_01: although she never looked it and had become very arthritic while still
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_01: in her fifties.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Arthritis is a disorder I associate with her particular aquiline beauty,
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_01: as if there is too little flesh to protect the bones.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_01: After Charlie died, nobody saw much of her.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_01: She stayed at home in that spacious but chilly flat of hers in Onslow Square,
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_01: where I visited her sometimes, perhaps not as often as I should have done.
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_01: She was never pleased to see me.
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Why should she be?
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_01: In the end, I tried to stay away unsuccessfully, as I did most things.
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_01: I telephoned her from time to time out of a dragging sense of duty,
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_01: and also out of something more complicated, more timorous than pity.
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Grief, perhaps.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_01: I realize now that I had not seen her for at least five years.
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_01: That was why the photograph gave me such a shock.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, it's kind of rambling,
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_01: but in such an intriguing way,
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_01: you get into this mind of this narrator who's struck by all these things at the site
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_01: of this obituary of someone that she knows who has now died.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And again, there's Onslow Square.
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_01: But as you read this and as you read many Berkner's,
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the only place that she goes to.
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_01: She talks about, you know, oh, I sold my home on this place and moved into this place.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_01: And no, it doesn't feel like home.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's too far from the blah, blah, blah.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like so familiar and so ordinary and everyday.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_01: But it is nevertheless a big map of London, these various books of Anita Bruckner's.
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I have decided,
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_01: especially with Hermione Lee's biography out in the UK
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_01: and come I think I might start in January of just,
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know, similar to the Muriel Spark read-along.
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_01: One book a month, chronological order.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_01: It'll take two years because she wrote 24 books.
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_01: But two years, one book a month, they're all short.
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're all doable.
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_01: They won't disrupt my life that much, but will enrich it, I believe.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's something I'm planning on for 2027 and 2028.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_01: I hate to put work like those that I don't like thinking about those dates and
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_01: the end of it.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Much older.
• 1:17:30
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, you know, it is...
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_01: It is what it is.
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a doable project.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm going to be kind of putting things together if anybody would like
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_01: to join me or join on certain books.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually thinking I might do it in quote unquote seasons so
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_01: that people feel like it's more doable.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's still 24 books in 24 months,
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_01: but we'll call it season one, her first three books or something like that.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then we'll get to season two with her breakout in...
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Hotel Dulac and all of that.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that might be kind of a fun way to approach them.
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_01: So again, if anybody's interested, hit me up.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'll probably do some work to make it a little more formal over the next couple
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_01: of months and then dig in with a start in life as a reread for me in January.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_01: places in London have really come to life for me based on Anita Bruckner's books,
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_01: none of which I had read when I was there the first time.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_01: But as I've read them over the years,
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_01: they take me back to neighborhoods, even some I never visited.
• 1:18:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:18:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go on Google Maps and follow the paths and see these places that she's talking
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_01: about.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I love it.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's so...
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_01: So fun to explore a city from somebody who lived there their whole lives
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_01: and made it such a big part of their books.
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a great choice.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_00: I have read several of hers, but I always want to read more.
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I will definitely be joining you, at least for some of those books.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I picked up a couple.
• 1:19:00
  SPEAKER_00: I picked up one of her books and one by Elizabeth Taylor, too, while I was there.
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's like just it's fun to get the books that are set in a certain place
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_00: and buy them where they where they were written.
• 1:19:10
  SPEAKER_00: So now that's a great, great choice.
• 1:19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
• 1:19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I know we've got to end here in a few minutes.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_01: So can I quickly just run down that list of categories I was thinking of?
• 1:19:21
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 1:19:22
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't cover them all, but we do have wealthy London.
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_01: We've got royal London.
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of talked about that with the uncommon reader, but we've got wealthy London.
• 1:19:33
  SPEAKER_01: You get into some stuff with Henry James or Anthony Trollope.
• 1:19:38
  SPEAKER_01: But then we have London of the Poor with Dickens and Gissing.
• 1:19:42
  SPEAKER_01: We've got gritty crime, you know, all through the ages.
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, we've got Victorian crime with Sherlock Holmes and Wilkie Collins.
• 1:19:51
  SPEAKER_01: And absolutely another big impact on me was Jack the Ripper
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_01: and just those side streets and dark alleys.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Mixed in with that London of crime, you've got London for the children.
• 1:20:05
  SPEAKER_01: You've got Mary Poppins and Paddington we've already brought up, but Peter Pan.
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's even the ride at Disneyland where you get to swoop up over the London city.
• 1:20:18
  SPEAKER_01: You brought up a little bit maybe with London of Outsiders,
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_01: or at least I mentioned maybe Patrick Hamilton covering some of this.
• 1:20:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I've really liked the work of Sam Selvin.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And also...
• 1:20:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can get into like Zadie Smith with White Teeth and Brick Lane,
• 1:20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Monica Alley with Brick Lane.
• 1:20:36
  SPEAKER_01: We've got Wolf's London, Bruckner's London, Pym's London.
• 1:20:42
  SPEAKER_01: We've got the fantasy with Harry Potter and Neverwhere.
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Then there's even the, you know, we get more political London.
• 1:20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or even spy London because it's all going on in the same place.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_01: You could be someone who grew up in London and the Prime Minister's street is not very far away.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_01: You could walk there.
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so you've got things like John le Carré or Graham Greene books that kind of deal
• 1:21:14
  SPEAKER_01: with that aspect.
• 1:21:16
  SPEAKER_01: But also London of the Apocalypse.
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you could count that with Jonathan Stroud's book.
• 1:21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Lockwood and Co. Just a little bit.
• 1:21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly his follow-up series,
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_01: the Scarlet Brown
• 1:21:34
  SPEAKER_01: books, they're very post-apocalyptic England, but London too.
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_01: But even things like The War of the Worlds or The Day of the Triffids or
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_01: The Children of Men, those are all London post-apocalyptic books.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_01: So there's just so much variety.
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't cover them all in my choices.
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, almost anything you're interested in, I know.
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_01: London's there for you.
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we didn't even mention like Jonathan Strange and Mr.
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Nurell with the magic stuff,
• 1:21:59
  SPEAKER_00: but I mean,
• 1:22:00
  SPEAKER_00: and then there's like,
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of ours have been back a little bit more,
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_00: but like 80s Thatcher London,
• 1:22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thatcher's London,
• 1:22:08
  SPEAKER_00: like Martin Amis with Money and Alan Hollinghurst's books,
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_00: which are really beautiful about,
• 1:22:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know, Class and sexuality and things like that.
• 1:22:16
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
• 1:22:16
  SPEAKER_00: there's just like you said,
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_00: any decade,
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_00: any year that you want, there's just different ways you can look at this city.
• 1:22:22
  SPEAKER_00: It contains multitudes for sure.
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I guess we better wrap up.
• 1:22:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's time for some other work and it has been a good time revisiting London and it's Friday.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully you have some time to stay in that world over the next few days over the weekend.
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll be back.
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_01: We've already announced our next topic, but again, we've got to run.
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll be back in a couple of weeks to explore that.
• 1:22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks everybody.
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's fun.
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Mooks and the Gripes podcast.
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed the bookish banter, we have more than 100 past episodes for you to dive into.
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_01: You can find us on Substack or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And be sure to follow us on Blue Sky and Instagram at mooks and at Bibliopal
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_01: for more bookish musings and updates.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you got thoughts, rants or a hot take on what we discussed, don't be shy.
• 1:23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Send us a message.
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_01: We'd also love it if you left us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify,
• 1:23:35
  SPEAKER_01: which would help more listeners find the podcast.
• 1:23:38
  SPEAKER_01: For those who want to support us a little further,
• 1:23:40
  SPEAKER_01: we offer bonus episodes and early access to all of our shows
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_01: through our paid subscriptions on Patreon or Substack.
• 1:23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Your support makes all the difference, and we're so grateful for every listener who tunes in.
• 1:23:55
  SPEAKER_01: May you keep exploring great books until next time.
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:24:00
  [music]