Latest / The Trauma Therapist / The Indomitable Power of Authentic Being with Daniel Zimmerman, M.D.

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The Indomitable Power of Authentic Being with Daniel Zimmerman, M.D. · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist podcast. My name is Gimick.
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  Speaker 1: Person I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to
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  Speaker 1: helping those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank
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  Speaker 1: you to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: this show. So five four, three, two and one, our folks,
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  Speaker 1: welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to have as
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  Speaker 1: my guest today, Doctor Daniel Zimmerman. Daniel, welcome, Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: It's such an honor to be here. Guy, Thank you
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  Speaker 2: so much for having me.
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  Speaker 1: Appreciate that, so appreciate that. Doctor Zimmerman is a board
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  Speaker 1: certified psychiatrist and co founder of Escherant Psychiatry in New
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  Speaker 1: York City, where he integrates psychodynamic theory with modern interventions
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  Speaker 1: like Keteminie assistant psychotherapy. He've viewsed the therapeutic process as
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  Speaker 1: a delicate dance between hiding and revealing oneself, moving beyond
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  Speaker 1: simple symptom management to help patients cultivate authentic self trust
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  Speaker 1: Through a dedicated trauma informed approach, Doctor Zimmerman empowers individuals
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  Speaker 1: to navigate complex emotional landscapes and achieves profound personal transformation.
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  Speaker 1: Ar Daniel, obviously just a little bit about you before
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  Speaker 1: we get going share with our listeners where you're from
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  Speaker 1: originally and where you are currently, and then we'll dive in.
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  Speaker 3: That's great, So again, just such a joy to be
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  Speaker 3: here with you guy today.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you.
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  Speaker 3: I am from the Detroit suburbs. I grew up in
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  Speaker 3: the suburbs of Detroit, Michigan. That's my hometown. I live
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  Speaker 3: there until I was eighteen. So, okay, where are you now?
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  Speaker 3: And my practice is in Lower Manhattan, in the financial
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  Speaker 3: district of Lower Manhattan, and I live in parks of Brooklyn,
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  Speaker 3: so I'm very much in New Yorker now.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, awesome, all right, so let's dive in here. How
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  Speaker 1: the heck did all this start for you? And I
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  Speaker 1: want to go back to I want to be a psychiatrist.
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  Speaker 3: That's a very interesting question. So I was always one
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  Speaker 3: of those. So I was a very kind of scholarly
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  Speaker 3: sort of fellow, very academic when I was very into
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  Speaker 3: school and academics. I was kind of just wired that way,
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  Speaker 3: and I always had a balance between the humanities and
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  Speaker 3: the sciences. And the sciences that was kind of my
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  Speaker 3: academic background, I would say. And so, but at the
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  Speaker 3: same time, I had been a sick child for a
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  Speaker 3: brief period of my early childhood, and this kind of
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  Speaker 3: planted the seed of wanting to become a physician. So
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  Speaker 3: I kind of always knew I wanted to become a physician,
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  Speaker 3: wanted to balance the humanities with the sciences.
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  Speaker 2: I actually didn't want to go into.
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  Speaker 3: Psychiatry because of its kind of marginal place within the
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  Speaker 3: field of medicine, but really felt a calling towards psychiatry
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  Speaker 3: because I think because I knew it would allow me
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  Speaker 3: to use that humanistic side of my brain more.
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  Speaker 1: That's very interesting that you were able to identify that
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  Speaker 1: kind of what balance, if you will, between the humanities
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  Speaker 1: and academia or academics. How did you realize that?
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  Speaker 3: I think it's I really, I think I have a
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  Speaker 3: passion for reading and writing. That was just all that's
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  Speaker 3: I think, like really what I love to do the most,
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  Speaker 3: and kind of making meaning out of text, reading texts
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  Speaker 3: and trying to understand text, interpret text, find meaning. That's
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  Speaker 3: like what I love to do the most. I'd say
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  Speaker 3: math and science was also important to me, but not
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  Speaker 3: so much where my heart has really lied.
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  Speaker 1: It's interesting because because when I was reading, you were
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  Speaker 1: on your website, your bio that's played out in the
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  Speaker 1: text there. For example, in your bio you have our
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  Speaker 1: practice philosophy is to help people experience trust in themselves
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  Speaker 1: and the serene and domitable power of authentic being. That's
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  Speaker 1: not what you would expect to find on uh what,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know. No, no, you on a western doctor's
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  Speaker 1: websitite and no judgment, but that's a fact. But it's
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  Speaker 1: very powerful. It's one of the things I think that
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  Speaker 1: kind of intrigued me about your work. Okay, so you
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  Speaker 1: get into medical school. At what point you're like, okay, psychiatry.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember it really felt almost like a spiritual calling,
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  Speaker 3: like a road to Damascus moment. I remember doing my
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  Speaker 3: clinical rotation at Cornell Westchester and you know, really being
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  Speaker 3: on the fence in my own mind whether I would
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  Speaker 3: want to pursue psychiatry or not, and kind of almost
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  Speaker 3: feeling that, despite the rational judgments about why I might
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  Speaker 3: not want to enter this field, that this is like
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  Speaker 3: it just felt it was a homecoming. It felt like
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  Speaker 3: I am at home this, I'm at home doing this work.
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  Speaker 3: This is where I'm going to find my place and
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  Speaker 3: my sense of belonging. It just felt like a natural
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  Speaker 3: fit for me, and I just I remember, like in
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  Speaker 3: a discreete moment, when that happened actually during my clinical
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  Speaker 3: r portation.
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  Speaker 1: And when when you said it's kind of subjected to
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  Speaker 1: the margins, is what is in reality? What does that mean?
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  Speaker 2: Well?
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  Speaker 3: Reputationally, well, I think even scientifically, we know the mind
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  Speaker 3: is so mysterious. We know so little about mental illness.
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  Speaker 3: I remember one of the phrases it stands out in
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  Speaker 3: my mind is psychiatry as a pathologist's graveyard.
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  Speaker 2: I remember that term. When they try to understand at
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  Speaker 2: the brain.
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  Speaker 3: Level, what is mediating these very extreme symptoms that people have,
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  Speaker 3: they have very little kind of definitive evidence. Now, obviously,
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  Speaker 3: neuroscience has advanced quite a bit even since my training days,
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  Speaker 3: and I think neuroscience is very important, especially with economy
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  Speaker 3: work we do. There have been fascinating studies that kind
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  Speaker 3: of show the effects of kindamine and other psychedelics on
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  Speaker 3: the brain and provide compelling evidence of how these medicines
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  Speaker 3: help people. But the science was not developed, especially in
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  Speaker 3: my training days.
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  Speaker 1: So you have this kind of epiphany and you respond
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  Speaker 1: to it, which in and of itself is amazing. I
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  Speaker 1: mean that thinks a lot. I mean, you know, we
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  Speaker 1: have these epiphanies sometimes we're pulled. We don't you're not
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  Speaker 1: in it. It doesn't seem to be an easy it's not.
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  Speaker 3: I actually did an extra year of med school because
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  Speaker 3: I really couldn't figure it out. I took a whole
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  Speaker 3: nother year to kind of find my paths. But so
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  Speaker 3: don't give me too much credit, but yeah, I appreciate that.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you did it there, So okay, so you go
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  Speaker 1: start going through it. What are you thinking, where are
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  Speaker 1: you seeing yourself? What is it attracting you or calling you?
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  Speaker 3: Within that field, I think the intellectual and clinical depth,
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  Speaker 3: especially as you start to do readings of the vast
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  Speaker 3: wise psychology literature, it starts to really help with understanding
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  Speaker 3: what's happening clinically. So I think that's where I really
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  Speaker 3: began to enjoy the work and understand the work, and
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  Speaker 3: feel that my decision was kind of affirmed and validated
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  Speaker 3: to enter this field when I was exposed to Freud
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  Speaker 3: and other great writers. There's many beyond Freud, of course,
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  Speaker 3: and Freud's writings are very flawed and problematic, although wise
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  Speaker 3: as well.
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  Speaker 1: But yeah, and again in your bio on your website.
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  Speaker 1: You mentioned psychodynamic therapy. Is that would you say your
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  Speaker 1: home base?
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  Speaker 2: I think so I did.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not a psychoanalyst, but I did do some formal
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  Speaker 3: psychoanalytic training.
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  Speaker 2: I've read the works of Freud.
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  Speaker 3: I'm a reader. I was an English major in college.
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  Speaker 3: I love to read texts and kind of grapple with texts.
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  Speaker 3: And I've kind of very well read in psychology, and
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  Speaker 3: I understand the concepts and know how to apply them clinically.
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  Speaker 2: And I have a lot of clinical experience. I've been
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  Speaker 2: doing clinical work for many years.
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  Speaker 1: And when you started working within that context, within that modality,
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  Speaker 1: what was that like for you?
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  Speaker 2: It's challenging.
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  Speaker 3: We all think we're doing good work when we're starting out.
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  Speaker 2: What and here's a wisdom I would like to share.
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  Speaker 3: And I'm curious if you agree with this or that guy.
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  Speaker 3: But it's easy to do the work of therapy. It's
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  Speaker 3: not easy to not get.
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  Speaker 2: In the way.
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  Speaker 3: Like the work of therapy kind of happens unless you're
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  Speaker 3: getting in the way. So learning how to not get
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  Speaker 3: in the way was the difficult part, and that took
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  Speaker 3: a lot of training and experience.
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  Speaker 1: Right, And so between those two points is what is
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  Speaker 1: there for you? What was there for you? What did
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  Speaker 1: you see was getting in the way of not getting
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  Speaker 1: in the way in a sense.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really everything I think that, you know, just
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  Speaker 3: giving patients advice, all the.
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  Speaker 2: Ways that we try to.
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  Speaker 3: Be helpful that aren't actually helpful. They're just kind of
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  Speaker 3: a legion being, you know, being too opinionated, too judgmental.
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  Speaker 3: Those are usually bad things for therapy. Not meeting clients
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  Speaker 3: where they are not being attuned, being too distracted. There's
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  Speaker 3: so many ways that I had to kind of tune
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  Speaker 3: my instrument to become a better therapist.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it takes time. Yeah, it takes a lot
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  Speaker 2: of time.
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  Speaker 1: For me. When I was seeing clients, oftentimes it was
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  Speaker 1: it was me wanting to help, wanting to help, wanting
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  Speaker 1: to fix, you know, wanting to share what I knew,
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  Speaker 1: you know, like you you have your briefcase filled with
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  Speaker 1: all of your books and techniques and interventions, and.
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  Speaker 4: You like you drag it into the room with you
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  Speaker 4: in a sense, you know, And it for me, for me,
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  Speaker 4: it was just getting rid of that and just being
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  Speaker 4: willing to be a human being in the room.
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  Speaker 1: And that's that's not easy for a lot of us.
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  Speaker 1: Because it means what maybe not knowing or being willing
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  Speaker 1: to not know? You know, right right?
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely? Well said yes, so.
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  Speaker 1: You start, do you start to see clients? You move
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  Speaker 1: through medical school? What happens when you get out?
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  Speaker 2: So?
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  Speaker 3: Oh, I so that's a so I beget So, you know,
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  Speaker 3: I trained within institutional settings during my residency training. Part
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  Speaker 3: of it might have been the frustrating social position of
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  Speaker 3: being a resident, but I kind of always sense that
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  Speaker 3: this type of work is not best done within institutional settings.
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  Speaker 3: That was kind of I really had a strong feeling
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  Speaker 3: about that, and that kind of drove me to really
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  Speaker 3: want to go into private practice and have autonomy early
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  Speaker 3: in my career. So I really kind of sought out autonomy.
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  Speaker 2: That was where you do that? Yeah, when did you start?
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  Speaker 3: Go ahead, I worked at Bellevue for like two years,
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  Speaker 3: so I did like kind of transition into private practice.
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  Speaker 3: I worked at Bellevue Hospital, but then I started my
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  Speaker 3: private practice.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, and is that echeron a Well.
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  Speaker 3: I was in solo practice for many years, for like
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  Speaker 3: about twelve years. I was wow, just yeah, I was
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  Speaker 3: in solo practice. And Akron is kind of the next
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  Speaker 3: chapter of my career that started just like three and
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  Speaker 3: a half years ago, a larger practice entity where I
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  Speaker 3: wanted to work with other clinicians and try to create, ironically,
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  Speaker 3: create an institution despite my anti institutional leanings. When I
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  Speaker 3: began this, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: When did you start to think about this, this idea
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  Speaker 1: of the importance of authenticity, you know, this balance hiding
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  Speaker 1: and revealing. Yeah, that's beautiful.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's like, so that's such a cool question, because.
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  Speaker 2: What comes to mind.
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  Speaker 3: So I was in solo practice for a long time,
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  Speaker 3: and I thought I was doing good work with.
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  Speaker 2: My clients, but I did become a bit.
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  Speaker 3: Insular professionally, a little cut off and insular professionally, and
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  Speaker 3: I wanted to do something different. I wanted to start
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  Speaker 3: a practice with other people.
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  Speaker 2: I kind of knew that.
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  Speaker 3: My first step was to work with a web develop
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  Speaker 3: or who had a clinical training background. She had a
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  Speaker 3: Master of Social Work and she was a business MBA,
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  Speaker 3: and she really helped me shape and refine my ideas
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  Speaker 3: and that taught me the flawed logic of autonomy.
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  Speaker 2: And wanting to do things myself.
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  Speaker 3: I was like, this person really was very instrumental and
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  Speaker 3: kind of orienting me toward authenticity. In particular, that was
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  Speaker 3: like one of the real focuses when we were building
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  Speaker 3: out the website and trying to create a brand for
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  Speaker 3: this new practice, it was focusing on authenticity. And there's
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  Speaker 3: a lot of clinical wisdom there as well, So.
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  Speaker 1: We'll talk about that. Why in what way was that
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  Speaker 1: important for you? How did it show up for you clinically?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, that's that's a very So
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  Speaker 3: I think like this kind of false self true self
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  Speaker 3: dichotomy that this win you know, winn Acadian theory. It's
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  Speaker 3: really I think it's kind of in some ways one
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  Speaker 3: of the most robust to the psychoanalytic tradition that is
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  Speaker 3: kind of alive in clinical work today. And when I
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  Speaker 3: think of authenticity, it's all about the true self. So
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  Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of convergence between my interest
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  Speaker 3: in psychoanalytic theory my desire to do ketamine work, which
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  Speaker 3: is really about quieting this kind of neurotic ego and
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  Speaker 3: helping emotional, authentic awarenesses and insights kind of bubble up
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  Speaker 3: from the unconscious. It all kind of like came together
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  Speaker 3: around ideas of authenticity, and I think my my web
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  Speaker 3: developer kind of oriented me there, helped point me in
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  Speaker 3: that direction.
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  Speaker 1: Boy, boy, this person you have to have a link
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  Speaker 1: for them in the.
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  Speaker 3: Show, So giving that person a lot of credit, but
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  Speaker 3: it just she was kind of, you know, getting outside
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  Speaker 3: of my own head and just like being you know,
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  Speaker 3: starting to really try to integrate into the field and
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  Speaker 3: what people are thinking about was really helpful for me.
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  Speaker 1: We're going to get to ketamine and so forth. But
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  Speaker 1: this idea of first of all, how would you define
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  Speaker 1: authenticity within this context of working with within the therapeutic
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  Speaker 1: context in a sense.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so.
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  Speaker 3: Authenticity is what gives us authentic joy and meaning, what
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  Speaker 3: gives us a sense of what gives us a real
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  Speaker 3: feeling of joy and meaning, and really starting to reshape.
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  Speaker 2: Our lives around those focuses.
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  Speaker 3: And you would think that would just come naturally to people,
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  Speaker 3: but oftentimes people do the very opposite. They're trying to
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  Speaker 3: serve many other masters and leave themselves behind and so
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  Speaker 3: reorienting people towards that purpose of joy and mean.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. It's so for me, that's been
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  Speaker 1: the same thing. It's like, why is it so friggin
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  Speaker 1: hard to be? Who?
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  Speaker 2: Right?
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  Speaker 1: Why am I so scared?
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  Speaker 3: Why?
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  Speaker 2: How how do you do that?
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  Speaker 1: When you're working with a client, how do you frame that,
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  Speaker 1: how do you start to allow them to unfold in
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  Speaker 1: a sense.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question.
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  Speaker 3: I think like one maybe helpful way of thinking about
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  Speaker 3: it is we we live in our thoughts too often,
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  Speaker 3: and we want to orient people more towards their emotions,
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  Speaker 3: their embodied sense of being and their emotional life. That's one,
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  Speaker 3: you know, way to try to get toward authenticity is
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: just getting people more into their emotions and making and
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  Speaker 3: honoring emotions, the importance of emotions, helping people suppress and
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  Speaker 3: repress less and just feel and be more.
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  Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about.
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  Speaker 2: I talk about therapy being easy.
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  Speaker 3: That's part of what I mean is like, you know,
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  Speaker 3: that's kind of like there's not you know that in
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  Speaker 3: some ways, that's kind of a simple idea, but you know,
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  Speaker 3: it's hard to actually create the space where people can
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  Speaker 3: do that.
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  Speaker 2: It's not computing.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's talk about Akron and the UH
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  Speaker 1: and ketamine assistant therapy psychotherapy. When did you first begin
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  Speaker 1: to realize the importance of that or significance of that
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  Speaker 1: usefulness of that.
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  Speaker 2: That's a great question. So it came quite late for me.
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  Speaker 2: I just in the past.
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  Speaker 3: Few years that I learn about psychedelic medicine for mental
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  Speaker 3: health and ketamine.
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  Speaker 2: I am not.
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  Speaker 3: I don't come from like a drug a drug background.
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  Speaker 3: The idea of you altered states of consciousness were not
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  Speaker 3: comfortable for me. I didn't learn about them in my
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  Speaker 3: residency training. I finished my training in two thousand and nine.
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  Speaker 3: I don't think I had a single didactic on psychedelic
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  Speaker 3: medicine or psychedelic psychiatry. And I was, you know, feeling
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  Speaker 3: a bit of a sense of stagnation in my solo
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  Speaker 3: practice and feeling a sense of disconnection, wanting to branch
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: out and do more. And around that same time I
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  Speaker 3: began to hear more about katamine, kataminecatamine. I actually attended
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  Speaker 3: American Psychiatric Association conference in twenty twenty two to like
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  Speaker 3: generate ideas. I'm not someone who would normally attend to conference.
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  Speaker 3: That's just not I think conferences are great, but it
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  Speaker 3: just wasn't the type of person I was. And at
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: that conference, I attended some talks on psychedelic medicine and
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  Speaker 3: something that was another road to domestic moment, Damascus moment
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  Speaker 3: for me, where I could see the passion of people
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  Speaker 3: about this about psychedelic psychiatry, and I could see there
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  Speaker 3: is definitely there there and it's something I don't know
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  Speaker 3: anything about, and I want to learn about this so
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  Speaker 3: I can help my clients more.
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  Speaker 2: And that's how it began.
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  Speaker 3: And for the past three and a half years, I've
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  Speaker 3: been going, going, going, learning every day and I know
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  Speaker 3: a lot about it now, a lot more than I
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  Speaker 3: did that.
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  Speaker 1: And how would you describe its use within the work
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  Speaker 1: you do?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So.
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  Speaker 3: There are many ways people can enter altered states of consciousness.
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  Speaker 3: You don't need to use a medicine academy. There can
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  Speaker 3: be breathwork, there could be meditation, yoga. There are many ways,
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  Speaker 3: and some people can just do it quite easily on
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  Speaker 3: their own.
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  Speaker 2: Catamine is a potent.
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  Speaker 3: Method of helping people quiet the ego and really get
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  Speaker 3: in touch with emotional awareness and insight. And if we
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  Speaker 3: want people to be more grounded, to be more rooted
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: in their true self and their authentic and emotional lives,
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: catamine is an excellent portal to help people do that.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: It's not the whole treatment. They need skilled therapy, they
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: need a lot of expertise around the process, but ketamine
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: is an important ingredient to do that illegal off label.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: So can you give us a specific example of someone
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: you worked with. Obviously we're not going to use real
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: names and all that stuff, but why was it useful
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: helpful for this particular client.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: And so I have a multi disciplinary practice and a
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: lot of times our therapists are actually doing the kadamine
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: work with clients, but I get to meet with our
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: clients and hear about their experiences. And so I'll tell
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: you about a patient experience that I just heard about yesterday.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: We have a patient. We have a complex trauma group
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: for women. It's a women's complex drama group therapy k experience,
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: and we had a patient who had never taken ketamine before,
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: and when I first met with her, she described like
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: a hyper aroused nervous system and not feeling safe in
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: her own body due to a very significant trauma history.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: She did this group, and I just met with her
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: yesterday to hear about her experience in the group. She
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: had four Kademine journeys as part of that group. In
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: her last ketamine journey, she experienced a sense of total
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: embodied safety during the journey, which is the first time
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: in her life she had ever experienced. It happened during
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: her ecatomine journey.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: Wow. And just to go back, so this was a group, this.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Is within within a group a group.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Wow. Wow. So she had this incredible experience that she
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: hadn't had previously. And as you said, the treatment doesn't
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: stop there, right, the healing doesn't stop there, right, So
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: what do you how would you work with that moving forward?
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: In a sense, Yeah, so that there are kind of
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: three phases to kindamine therapy. There's a preparation phase, there's
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: the medicine dosing experiences itself, and then there's the integration phase.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: In the integration phrase, you're trying to capture these experiences
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: and help integrate them into person's life, like, help make
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: them shift a person's way of being, both emotionally and
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: in terms of their habits. So we so I've taking
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: that experience and helping to integrate it so that becomes
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: more of a part of her conscious ego life.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: That would be would be the way to do that.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Ye, shifting gears a little bit psychodynamically, we're psychodynamics. Does
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: how does that pair with.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Kap That's a great question.
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: So I think it pairs very well because we're putting
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: people into very vulnerable states and we're opening up their minds.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: We're kind of inducing a waking dream in a way.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: As you know, Freud really began his work through the
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: lens of dreams. That's when his real that's when his
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: work really blossomed, was through his understanding of dreams. That's
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: exactly what we're doing with kindamine work. Is we're helping
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: people have these waking dreams or they're more in touch
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: with their emotions where the unconscious is manifesting. You need
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: to understand the principles of psycho dynamic theory to really
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: work with patients and help to integrate these experiences. So
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: I think they go together beautifully.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: What does it mean when you know? Again, uh, you
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: talk about hiding and revealing oneself? What is what do
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: you mean by that? Well, just just for our listeners,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: psychotherapy is always a delicate dance between hiding and revealing oneself.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean the symptom itself. This is you know
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: something Freud said, it's a compromised formation between the true
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: self which is trying to manifest and the defenses which
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: are trying to suppress it. So that is many aspects
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: of our experience have that dual kind of nature to it,
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: and therapy itself is about shifting the balance toward emotional awareness,
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: how insight, and integration. We want people to experience more
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: of that in their conscious mareaking lives and to suppress less.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: What's your own personal arc been like from when you
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: started out doing this work to like where you are
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: now in terms of you talked a little bit about
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: understanding the importance of authenticity, but for yourself, you know,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: how are you showing up differently and how did you
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: get here?
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah? You know, I'm you know, I feel very blessed
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: to be in a very creative phase of life with
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: this new practice, with kind of trying to institutionalize a
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: vision of healing that involves the kut I Meane therapy principles,
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: the psychoanalytic principles, teaching others, you know, trying to work
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: with others to bring out their best selves as professionals
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: and clinicians. For me, you know, I've really, I think
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: just you've been to bossom creatively over the past few
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: years with this new practice and doing this work and
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: my own experiential kind of mean training experiences probably played
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: a role in that too. It was kind of powerful
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: and profound for me to do some psychedelic work on
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: myself as well, and it's it's been a lot of stress,
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: but I've been enjoying it.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Akron. Who comes to you? Who are the people that
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: you folks.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Work with, That's a great question.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: So we are we're a multidisciplinary practice. We do do
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: the KP work, but we do other med management as well.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: We have just general psychotherapy services, we do EMDR. We
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: actually have a neuropsychology service here, so people come to
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: us with ADHD and other brain health related conditions. People
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: come to us for different reasons. We do get some
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: people who specifically want this depth oriented psychedelics work, and
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: you know, we increasingly see patients who are quite informed
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: and quite intentional about seeking this out for the right reasons.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: Sometimes we do get people who you know, might be
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: in very deep distress or kind of unstable and seeking
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: that kind of more miracle cure through the Kademene work.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: In that ten Sinaco as well. We have to kind
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: of reshape expectations a lot of times in those cases
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: and stabilize people before they can really do the depth
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: oriented kindemine work with us. So we you know, we
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: see all different types of patients, but we try to help.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: We try to meet patients where they are and try
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: to help them. And it doesn't have to be kindomy
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: work for every patient certainly, and.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Working with professionals, you offer what trainings, retreats, et cetera.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so we are a training site. We train social
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: work interns from Columbia and NP interns from Adelphi. Now,
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: we we did have a kadamine group four clinicians. That
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: was a nice group that ran, so that had like
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: a training aspect and just a clinical aspect for other
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: clinicians in the community. We're also trying to be a
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: community hub. We're holding a networking event on March twenty eighth.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: It's gonna just be like a panel Q and A
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: with another practice in our building. We're kind of joining
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: forces with them. So we're trying to just create community
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: around this too and inform the public. Some therapists know
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: about this work, and there are many therapists we are
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: still learning about this work and doing so much about
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: it all, and we think this can have a lot
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: of value for a lot of patients. So we're just
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: excited to spread the word and try to inform people.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Awesome you know, as when you first started out, you
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: said there was a sense that maybe psychiatry was kind
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: of marginalized. What do you feel about it now?
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: That's changed?
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: It has changed because I love the work I do.
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: I think mental health it's so cool. Like mental health,
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: it's so abstract and so figmentary in a way, but
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: we just know it's so important and we now I
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: feel like I just have much greater understanding of what
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: mental health is and how to just make it the
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: centerpiece of our lives. And of course I'm biased because
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: I do this word professionally, but I just think it
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: is also.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Just so important for everyone's lives.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I've come full circle on that record, or
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: you know, I've really evolved.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: I guess.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Well, well say yeah, all right, Daniel. What's the best
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: way for people to learn more about you and Achron?
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: That's great?
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So please visit our website akron psych dot com,
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: A c H E R O N P S y
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: c H dot com, or you can give us a
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: call two one two three two zero two two one
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: six or email us at info at acronsych dot com
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: and we'd love to connect with you and try to
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: be of service.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: We'll have all that linked up here at the show
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com. Before
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: we go, Daniel, you have this. You have a great
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: presence about you. You know, it's it's uh and I'm
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: sure your clients feel it and the people you work with,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: but it's very kind of warm and compassionate. It's coming
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: through and it's great, great speaking with you.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: I really appreciate this conversation to right. The work you're
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: doing is so important. Thank you for just putting these
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: stories out there and trying to help people.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Thanks. I appreciate that.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: It's a delight meeting.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: All right, sir, We'll be in touch.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you guys, Thank you,