Latest / Next Level Play Therapy: A Podcast for Play Therapy Excellence / Jungian Play Therapy 101: Symbols, Archetypes & Clinical Ideas

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Jungian Play Therapy 101: Symbols, Archetypes & Clinical Ideas · Next Level Play Therapy: A Podcast for Play Therapy Excellence

• 0:02
  Cathi Spooner: Welcome to Next Level Play Therapy, a weekly podcast dedicated to supporting the next generation of child and adolescent therapists to provide exceptional play therapy services.
• 0:14
  Cathi Spooner: We'll explore all things play therapy to elevate your work with children and adolescents using the therapeutic powers of play.
• 0:23
  Cathi Spooner: I'll discuss practical tips and ideas so you can provide a transformative experience for your young clients and make a real difference in their lives.
• 0:33
  Cathi Spooner: So get ready to take your play therapy skills to the next level and make a lasting impact in the lives of children, adolescents, and families.
• 0:49
  Cathi Spooner: All right.
• 0:49
  Cathi Spooner: Welcome, everyone.
• 0:51
  Cathi Spooner: Welcome to this week's episode of Next Level Play Therapy, and I am super excited this week.
• 0:58
  Cathi Spooner: We are gonna be talking all things psycho- uh, Jungian psychoanalytic play therapy with Jared Andes.
• 1:06
  Cathi Spooner: He is a licensed clinical social worker and a registered play therapy supervisor.
• 1:12
  Cathi Spooner: One of the reasons that I thought this would be an awesome topic is because, like Jared and I were talking a little bit before I hit the go live button, which is a lot… Like nowadays, it seems like there's only a couple of options for trainings.
• 1:29
  Cathi Spooner: If you're a play therapist and you're wanting to learn play therapy and learn a theoretical model There's, there's usually only a couple of trainings available these days, which is good.
• 1:43
  Cathi Spooner: They're good trainings, and if you don't really resonate with them, it doesn't seem like there's another option available.
• 1:51
  Cathi Spooner: And so today we're gonna talk about Jungian psychoanalytic ther- uh, play therapy, and then we'll talk a little bit at the end because the Utah Association for Play Therapy has a training coming up on s- um, Jungian psychoanalytic play therapy.
• 2:11
  Cathi Spooner: I'm gonna… That's just a mouthful to say.
• 2:14
  Cathi Spooner: Jungian psychoanalytic therapy.
• 2:17
  Cathi Spooner: All righty.
• 2:18
  Cathi Spooner: So we're gonna talk about what Jungian psychoanalytic play therapy is, what are the core components of psychoanalytic, uh, Jungian psychoanalytic therapy, and just all things, um, Jungian play therapy.
• 2:36
  Cathi Spooner: So Jared is a play therapist, a supervisor, a trainer, and he also specializes in Jungian psychoanalytic play therapy, selective mutism.
• 2:49
  Cathi Spooner: I've seen some of your trainings that you're doing other places about selective mutism as well, trauma and neurodivergence.
• 2:57
  Cathi Spooner: He's currently serving as the vice president for the Utah Association for Play Therapy branch, and is the clinical director for the APT Play Therapy magazine.
• 3:10
  Cathi Spooner: So welcome, Jared.
• 3:11
  Cathi Spooner: I don't know if you wanna tell people a little bit more about what you're up to these days and what you're doing, and then we can talk about what's going on.
• 3:19
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, before you do that, sorry.
• 3:21
  Cathi Spooner: I forgot.
• 3:21
  Cathi Spooner: I always forget this part.
• 3:23
  Cathi Spooner: Um, for those of you watching live, if you have questions about the topic, please feel free to post those in the comments.
• 3:33
  Cathi Spooner: If you're watching the replay, please feel free to post in the comments and ask your questions.
• 3:40
  Cathi Spooner: I'm sure we can make sure that Jared responds to those, or I can get an answer for you.
• 3:45
  Cathi Spooner: Um, and for those of you listening on the podcast, I'm also gonna give you some ways to connect with Jared if you have questions or the Association for Play Therapy, Utah Association for Play Therapy.
• 3:59
  Cathi Spooner: You can reach out to them or message me.
• 4:02
  Cathi Spooner: Um, but feel free to join the conversation, and if you know somebody that might be interested in this topic, please feel free to share the information across your social media platforms and let your friends and colleagues know about the training coming up.
• 4:21
  Cathi Spooner: All righty.
• 4:21
  Cathi Spooner: There, I got my pitch in.
• 4:25
  Jared Andes: Well, thanks for the pitch.
• 4:26
  Cathi Spooner: You're welcome.
• 4:26
  Jared Andes: Um, so a little bit more about me.
• 4:28
  Jared Andes: I, um, I'm gonna start with this.
• 4:30
  Jared Andes: I'm the father of two.
• 4:31
  Jared Andes: Um- Oh … I've got two kids.
• 4:33
  Jared Andes: Last time I joined you on your, um, your live stream, uh- Okay… we were getting ready for my younger son's graduation, so that was an exciting day for us.
• 4:40
  Jared Andes: Um- Yeah.
• 4:41
  Jared Andes: Awesome … and outside of that, I am a private practice, uh, in- I have an office in Salt Lake and one in Sandy.
• 4:46
  Jared Andes: Um, I'm- I am really excited about, uh, sharing things like selective mutism and Jungian analytical play therapy, um, because the, the Jungian play therapy community is pretty small.
• 4:58
  Jared Andes: We're not like the, uh, you know, the Adlerians or Child Centered.
• 5:03
  Jared Andes: It's a, it's a pretty small community.
• 5:05
  Jared Andes: Um, so I'm excited to bring that out to people and to help, um, that community grow.
• 5:09
  Jared Andes: I love when I run into people and they're like, "Oh, I've been doing this for a while, but I haven't really met anyone, uh, anyone else who's doing this." It's, it's really
• 5:15
  Cathi Spooner: exciting.
• 5:16
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, that's
• 5:16
  Jared Andes: exciting.
• 5:16
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 5:17
  Jared Andes: Um, and then, uh, yeah, the magazine keeps us pretty busy.
• 5:21
  Jared Andes: A lot of, uh- Nice … lots of great articles coming in.
• 5:24
  Jared Andes: And I- anyone who's listening, if you have an idea, um, I definitely encourage you to, you know, submit your manuscript.
• 5:30
  Jared Andes: If you have questions, feel free to reach out.
• 5:31
  Jared Andes: Um, we're always happy to help you.
• 5:34
  Cathi Spooner: Awesome.
• 5:34
  Cathi Spooner: Awesome.
• 5:37
  Cathi Spooner: All right.
• 5:37
  Cathi Spooner: So a little bit of full disclosure.
• 5:40
  Cathi Spooner: My husband just went off to work, which means he opened the door to my office to let my dog in.
• 5:46
  Cathi Spooner: So if you hear… Ope, she's leaving now.
• 5:50
  Cathi Spooner: If you… Sometimes she rolls around in the back and moans, so if, if you hear any weird noises in the back, I promise I'm not doing anything untoward back there.
• 6:02
  Cathi Spooner: It's just my dog, Luna, 'cause she does- she doesn't like to- be in the house by herself, so she comes and hangs out with me during my livestreams.
• 6:12
  Jared Andes: All
• 6:12
  Cathi Spooner: right.
• 6:12
  Cathi Spooner: And sometimes you can see her little tail walking back and forth in the background if you're watching the video.
• 6:19
  Cathi Spooner: I was watching one of my videos one ti- this is a couple years ago, and I could see her… Oh, she's back.
• 6:25
  Cathi Spooner: You could- I could see her little tail, little black and white tail in the background.
• 6:30
  Cathi Spooner: Yep, she's over there laying down.
• 6:31
  Cathi Spooner: All right.
• 6:32
  Cathi Spooner: So, so if you hear weird noises, it's Luna.
• 6:35
  Cathi Spooner: Now
• 6:36
  Jared Andes: we know.
• 6:37
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 6:38
  Cathi Spooner: So, um, Jared, tell us a little bit about what is Jungian play therapy?
• 6:46
  Jared Andes: So I'm gonna try not to do a really long history lesson, but we do have to go back a little bit to- Yeah Carl Jung.
• 6:52
  Jared Andes: Um, so, uh, Carl Jung was a collaborator with Freud, uh, but they separated on some key ideas and issues.
• 6:58
  Jared Andes: And, um, Jung started, started his own, um, psychology school, and, um, Jungian play therapy descended from his theory.
• 7:08
  Jared Andes: Um, and it was, um, modified for play therapy by John Allen and then, um, continued, uh, by people like JP Lilly, who was my first play therapy supervisor, and then Eric Green, uh, both of who unfortunately passed away.
• 7:21
  Cathi Spooner: Right.
• 7:22
  Jared Andes: Um, and continues to be something that, um, evolves and grows.
• 7:26
  Jared Andes: Um, but like I said, it is a small community right now.
• 7:29
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 7:30
  Cathi Spooner: You know what's interesting?
• 7:31
  Cathi Spooner: I think John Allen, isn't he in Canada?
• 7:34
  Jared Andes: He is.
• 7:35
  Cathi Spooner: I remember, like this must have been a bazillion years ago.
• 7:39
  Cathi Spooner: I don't remember if it was a national APT conference or a Virginia Association for Play Therapy conference, but he came and did a, excuse me, did a training, and he talked about his serial drawing.
• 7:56
  Jared Andes: Mm-hmm.
• 7:56
  Cathi Spooner: He, and he has a book, Inscapes of the Children, about that model that he developed, and I, I still use that one to this day.
• 8:05
  Jared Andes: Mm.
• 8:06
  Cathi Spooner: So yeah, it's a really good b- it's an oldie.
• 8:08
  Cathi Spooner: I don't even know- Yeah … if it's in print anymore.
• 8:09
  Jared Andes: Actually, they just released a new pr- uh, edition, so 2025 I think is when that will come out.
• 8:14
  Jared Andes: Oh, okay.
• 8:15
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 8:15
  Jared Andes: It's back in publication.
• 8:16
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, nice.
• 8:17
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 8:17
  Cathi Spooner: It's a… I, I use it all the time.
• 8:21
  Cathi Spooner: Um, yeah.
• 8:22
  Cathi Spooner: So that's-
• 8:23
  Jared Andes: Inscapes, uh, sorry, Inscapes of the Child's World is the, the name of that one.
• 8:26
  Jared Andes: It's a, it is a great book.
• 8:28
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 8:28
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 8:28
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 8:29
  Cathi Spooner: That's awesome.
• 8:31
  Cathi Spooner: Awesome.
• 8:32
  Cathi Spooner: And g- okay, so, uh, this is my little nerdy part.
• 8:36
  Cathi Spooner: Warning, I feel like I should warn people.
• 8:39
  Cathi Spooner: Warning, you have entered the nerdy zone.
• 8:41
  Cathi Spooner: Um, so, um, when I think of Jungian psychoanalytic therapy theory and expressive art, does, does the work that Dora Koff did with sand play play over into some of the Jungian psychoanalytic play therapy-
• 9:02
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 9:03
  Jared Andes: Actually, I just
• 9:03
  Cathi Spooner: happen-… Jared Andes: theory?
• 9:04
  Cathi Spooner: … just happen to have her book right here, actually.
• 9:05
  Cathi Spooner: Oh.
• 9:06
  Cathi Spooner: I'm not even kidding.
• 9:07
  Cathi Spooner: Um- Oh, cool … it's, uh, just right there.
• 9:09
  Cathi Spooner: But, um, so yeah, it, they kind of descended in two different, um- Tracks… Jared Andes: lineages.
• 9:17
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, tracks.
• 9:17
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 9:17
  Jared Andes: Um, but they do have a lot of, um, bleed over, right?
• 9:20
  Jared Andes: Like, um, Jungian play therapy, Jungian analytical play therapy, uh, uses sand tray, um, r- all of the time, right?
• 9:27
  Jared Andes: That's a very common thing.
• 9:29
  Jared Andes: Um- Yeah … and, and they both are descending from Carl Jung's ideas.
• 9:33
  Jared Andes: So things like all of us are wired for individuation, which is becoming, um, our whole self.
• 9:38
  Jared Andes: We're wired for wholeness, and so we can trust the, the individual psyche, in this case the child's psyche, um, to help direct therapy where it needs to go.
• 9:46
  Jared Andes: Um, things like, uh, understanding archetypes and the energy that is, um, transmitted in a session.
• 9:52
  Jared Andes: Things like, uh, transference and counter-transference and how important that is.
• 9:56
  Jared Andes: It's not just, oh, like, oh, you know, you're a, you're a bad therapist.
• 9:59
  Jared Andes: You have these counter-transference feelings.
• 10:01
  Jared Andes: It's actually information.
• 10:02
  Jared Andes: It's data for the therapist.
• 10:04
  Jared Andes: Um, all of those things come from that same source.
• 10:06
  Jared Andes: So yeah, there's a lot of bleed over between the two.
• 10:08
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 10:09
  Cathi Spooner: And I, y- I, like I mentioned to you previously, I went c- oh, this is probably- Nine years ago when JP Lilly did the Jungian play therapy training for the Utah Association for Play Therapy, and there, there seemed to be that s- some I found some similarities with child-centered play therapy.
• 10:35
  Cathi Spooner: But I find that this part, what I'm about to say, is kind of Similar across all the play therapy models and that idea.
• 10:44
  Cathi Spooner: But I think in what I noticed in Jungian play therapy is that, uh, like sometimes the child leads and sometimes the therapist leads.
• 10:56
  Jared Andes: So- So that idea that- … there's a ton of similarities Yeah.
• 11:01
  Cathi Spooner: Uh, what
• 11:01
  Jared Andes: was that?
• 11:02
  Jared Andes: Um, JP would always say that, you know, the people who really… So I'll introduce a new topic that I was gonna talk about later, but I'll introduce this now.
• 11:08
  Jared Andes: Um, there's this concept in Jungian analytical play therapy called temenos.
• 11:13
  Jared Andes: Um, and temenos means, like, the, the sacred district.
• 11:16
  Jared Andes: It's the area, literally it was the area around the temple that set it apart from the secular.
• 11:22
  Jared Andes: Um, and Jung said that the therapy space needed to be set apart and sacred.
• 11:27
  Jared Andes: Um, and, and in Jungian analytical play therapy we recognize it's not just the playroom that needs to be separate and sacred, it's also the relationship that holds that temenos.
• 11:37
  Jared Andes: So we are, as, as the play therapist, we are as much a part of that as the space that we're in.
• 11:42
  Jared Andes: Um, and JP would always say that, you know who gets temenos, uh, best out of anybody?
• 11:47
  Jared Andes: The child-centered people.
• 11:48
  Jared Andes: They really get it right.
• 11:50
  Jared Andes: Um, so yeah, there's, uh, I think there's a lot of similarities, and then there are some big divergences.
• 11:55
  Jared Andes: For example, um, you know, if a child asks a question, I, I feel very free to answer the question.
• 12:01
  Cathi Spooner: You can answer the question.
• 12:03
  Jared Andes: Right.
• 12:03
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 12:03
  Jared Andes: You know, it does depend.
• 12:05
  Jared Andes: Like, sometimes I'll reflect it back to the child and say, "Oh, you're wondering this thing." Or, you know, I might even use the, the very famous child, uh, centered line like, "Oh yeah, it sure seems like that to you." Something like that.
• 12:15
  Jared Andes: Um, but if the relationship calls for it I'll, I'll say,"Yeah, I'm, I'm afraid of that thing," or, "That is a really cool thing that you built.
• 12:22
  Jared Andes: I do like that."
• 12:23
  Cathi Spooner: Mm-hmm.
• 12:24
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 12:25
  Cathi Spooner: Th- so that ide- I think that idea of the relationship, um, and how important that is kind of anchor and set play therapy apart from other play therapy models is a, it's really important.
• 12:42
  Cathi Spooner: And I'm, I'm curious from a Jungian standpoint, a Jungian play therapy standpoint, like how is, how does the play therapist, what is, I guess, their way of being so to speak- Mm … for lack of a better way of saying it, in the playroom?
• 13:00
  Cathi Spooner: Because I, I feel like a lot of… I, like I'll tell people you need to learn a play therapy model.
• 13:06
  Cathi Spooner: Like, you have to be grounded in something.
• 13:08
  Cathi Spooner: Learn one, learn how to apply it through every stage.
• 13:14
  Cathi Spooner: Like, learn how to do it.
• 13:16
  Cathi Spooner: You can always add later.
• 13:19
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 13:20
  Cathi Spooner: But you need to at least learn a play therapy model, 'cause that's your framework.
• 13:25
  Cathi Spooner: But the bottom line is while you're learning The model, lean into relationship, because if you don't have relationship, then you're not gonna get anywhere anyway.
• 13:36
  Cathi Spooner: So,
• 13:37
  Jared Andes: and I'm- I don't know any model of play therapy that says we can deprioritize the relationship and focus on the technique.
• 13:43
  Jared Andes: I don't know any type that does that, and certainly not Jungian analytical play therapy.
• 13:46
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 13:47
  Jared Andes: Very, very much focused on the relationship.
• 13:49
  Jared Andes: Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring in a couple of people, um, to talk about what you just asked.
• 13:54
  Jared Andes: Okay.
• 13:54
  Jared Andes: So I'll start with John Allen.
• 13:55
  Jared Andes: He's got this great quote that I think about frequently.
• 13:58
  Jared Andes: Um, he said, um, "Carl Jung viewed therapy as an existential exchange." And, um, then John Allen went to say, or went on to say, um, "If the therapy's any good, both parties are changed." So the therapist experiences a change, and so does the client.
• 14:13
  Jared Andes: It's not a one-way, a, um, change, right?
• 14:16
  Jared Andes: That both people are going to be changed by this.
• 14:19
  Jared Andes: Um, that's why countertransference and transference is so important, um, because we are going to experience something.
• 14:26
  Cathi Spooner: I love that.
• 14:27
  Jared Andes: I think it's a beautiful
• 14:28
  Cathi Spooner: quote.
• 14:28
  Cathi Spooner: So true, right?
• 14:29
  Cathi Spooner: Because if you bring your authentic self therapeutically, right, in a professional way, but if you bring your therapeutic self into, and you enter into authentic relationship, then of course it's gonna- impact you.
• 14:48
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 14:48
  Cathi Spooner: That's all- I think
• 14:49
  Jared Andes: many
• 14:50
  Cathi Spooner: therapists would say- I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be pondering that the rest of the day.
• 14:53
  Jared Andes: I think many therapists, especially people who've practiced, you know, for a certain length of time, would say they carry clients with them.
• 15:00
  Cathi Spooner: Yes.
• 15:01
  Cathi Spooner: I mean, I have some clients, I've been doing this co- I'm rounding the, rounding the corner close to 35 years.
• 15:10
  Cathi Spooner: There are still some clients that I think about.
• 15:15
  Cathi Spooner: There's, like, a handful of them I think about to this day.
• 15:20
  Cathi Spooner: Somehow they found me on social media, like years and years later.
• 15:25
  Cathi Spooner: Wow.
• 15:25
  Cathi Spooner: And they'll just like my posts.
• 15:27
  Cathi Spooner: Um, which I think is very sweet because I, I know what a dark place they were in at the time- Yeah and what a, kind of a privilege it was to walk with them through that process.
• 15:41
  Cathi Spooner: So it's very cool.
• 15:42
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 15:43
  Cathi Spooner: You can see my dog Luna's head popping up between my Yeah.
• 15:48
  Cathi Spooner: In and out.
• 15:49
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 15:49
  Cathi Spooner: If you're watching on the video.
• 15:49
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 15:50
  Cathi Spooner: I l- I love that so much.
• 15:52
  Cathi Spooner: And you know, I think about what you s- I tell people too, countertransference, don't be afraid of it, uh,'cause it isn't a bad thing.
• 16:01
  Jared Andes: Right.
• 16:01
  Cathi Spooner: It's, it just gives information.
• 16:05
  Cathi Spooner: I remember years a- this is when I was, like, first getting started back a gazillion years ago, and I was asking my supervisor at the time, "What do I do when countertran…" Like, like, "What do I do with my countertransference?" You know, like super nervous.
• 16:22
  Cathi Spooner: We're all out of grad school.
• 16:23
  Cathi Spooner: We've been told We're not supposed to have this empathy … about our bias.
• 16:27
  Cathi Spooner: You know, watch your bias.
• 16:29
  Cathi Spooner: Basically, don't be a butthead-
• 16:31
  Jared Andes: Mm-hmm… Cathi Spooner: um, And so we're, like, super nervous about everything and wanting to do a good job and do right by our clients.
• 16:40
  Jared Andes: I was so nervous about countertransference.
• 16:45
  Jared Andes: And I remember my supervisor said, um, "Well, just use it." And I, and I was like, "What are you talking about?" And she's like, "Well, let's say you feel like there's anger coming, and you feel yourself getting irritated," 'cause the, this was a adult client I was getting, I was getting irritated with, uh, in the session and trying, trying to manage that internally.
• 17:08
  Jared Andes: Um, and she said, "Well, if that comes up, just ask them,'Do you ever feel like there are times when people get mad at you or irritated with you, and you don't understand why?'" And it was like, yeah.
• 17:21
  Jared Andes: Am I… And I was like s- I was, I was sold from then on that countertransference- Yeah … is the magic secret sauce to figuring things out.
• 17:31
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 17:32
  Jared Andes: From a, from a s- analytic, a psychoanalytic, a union analytic play therapy standpoint, how, how do you guys use that as a play therapist?
• 17:46
  Jared Andes: So, um, I hope that this is true of all types of play therapy, but it is certainly true in Jungian analytical play therapy.
• 17:53
  Jared Andes: The Jungian play therapist is always in consultation, always working on their own interiority.
• 17:58
  Jared Andes: Our- the interior of the therapist is so important, right?
• 18:01
  Jared Andes: So we have to do that work to get to know where, you know, where is my stuff coming up and where is this coming from the client.
• 18:08
  Jared Andes: Um, you know, I have a, have a bad day, I'm tired and whatever, I can get irritated really easily.
• 18:13
  Jared Andes: So if it's just me being irritated, like, you know, in your example, and it's not something that this client is doing, then I need to, you know, realize like, hey, this is what's happening for me.
• 18:22
  Jared Andes: I need to work on that.
• 18:23
  Jared Andes: But if I can go through that process and say, actually, I have… like, my level of irritation is pretty low, something else is happening in this room, then I sit with that.
• 18:32
  Jared Andes: There's-- So the analytic stance is something that's really important.
• 18:35
  Jared Andes: We'll talk about that more, um, you know, for anyone who's interested, we'll talk about that, um, in the six-hour training here in Utah.
• 18:41
  Jared Andes: But, um, I'll say one thing that's, I think, really important on this, and that is to have a soft hypothesis.
• 18:47
  Jared Andes: So anytime we're approaching it, we don't say, "Aha, it's this. I've got the answer.
• 18:50
  Jared Andes: It's the one answer." We hold this, the hypothesis very carefully, really lightly, because it might be right and it might not be right.
• 18:58
  Jared Andes: We sometimes actually will even present that in play therapy.
• 19:01
  Jared Andes: Like, "Oh, okay.
• 19:02
  Jared Andes: So, um, you know, that guy looks really angry," or, "Wow, she is so powerful." A, a soft hypothesis stated like that.
• 19:10
  Jared Andes: Mm-hmm.
• 19:10
  Jared Andes: And the client will sometimes say, "No, he's not scary.
• 19:14
  Jared Andes: He's actually scared." And then we're, "Oh, okay.
• 19:17
  Jared Andes: Thanks for telling me." And then you just, you sit with that, you hold it.
• 19:21
  Jared Andes: Um, so the analytical stance is to hold these soft hypotheses and, and just hold them.
• 19:25
  Jared Andes: Um, and if, you know, if you're in the play therapy session, you're doing Jungian analytical play therapy, and you're like,"Ooh, I'm not sure what to do," I, I agree with you fully.
• 19:34
  Jared Andes: You go back to the relationship.
• 19:35
  Jared Andes: And then also JP identified three key roles for a play therapist.
• 19:39
  Jared Andes: Um, so the, the first one is witness.
• 19:42
  Jared Andes: That one I, I think we can do pretty easily.
• 19:44
  Jared Andes: I, I can sit here, I can witness this with you, and I can even reflect back to you that I'm witnessing it.
• 19:48
  Jared Andes: I think that's really important.
• 19:50
  Jared Andes: Um, and then the next one is interpreter.
• 19:52
  Jared Andes: So when we interpret, it does sometimes happen in the room, but we don't always offer it in the room.
• 19:58
  Jared Andes: And usually it happens once we've left the play therapy room.
• 20:00
  Jared Andes: As we're reflecting on the session, writing our note, thinking about the child, that's when we're really starting to work on the interpretation.
• 20:06
  Jared Andes: Okay, so it might be this thing, it might be that thing.
• 20:08
  Jared Andes: But it does sometimes happen within the playroom as well.
• 20:10
  Jared Andes: And then the last one is container, which is, um, you know, crucial.
• 20:13
  Jared Andes: You can't have temenos, like I was talking about earlier, without container.
• 20:17
  Jared Andes: So there must be containment of strong emotions.
• 20:20
  Jared Andes: There must be boundaries around the behavior, um, otherwise no one can feel safe.
• 20:25
  Cathi Spooner: I love that.
• 20:26
  Cathi Spooner: You know what's so interesting when you were talking about that, I was kind of thinking about the parallel, 'cause I know you, um, you s- you said you work with trauma as well, and how important these are to create a sense of safety for clients who have experienced trauma, but selective mutism as well.
• 20:47
  Cathi Spooner: They're n- Yeah … they're not gonna do anything until they feel safe.
• 20:51
  Cathi Spooner: Mm-hmm.
• 20:52
  Cathi Spooner: They'll just stay frozen in the playroom until, until that happens.
• 20:57
  Cathi Spooner: And so that, that whole idea of witness and feeling seen, heard, held, and understood Also within structure and containment because that's where the, the safety is with those boundaries.
• 21:16
  Cathi Spooner: Mm-hmm.
• 21:17
  Cathi Spooner: And I'm… I always think of, um, the, uh, circle of security from an attachment standpoint.
• 21:24
  Cathi Spooner: Parents have to be bigger, stronger, wiser, and kind.
• 21:27
  Cathi Spooner: I think in the playroom that their play therapist needs to be bigger, stronger, wiser, and kind, and that's kind of what I'm, I'm hearing you talk about in terms of those, the three roles-
• 21:39
  Jared Andes: Yeah
• 21:39
  Cathi Spooner: of a play therapist.
• 21:41
  Jared Andes: Yep, and I, I'm gonna, you know, bringing in what you just said, um, that so systems was part of, um, Jung's model from nearly the beginning.
• 21:51
  Jared Andes: He would look at where is this person coming from, not just who is this person showing up.
• 21:55
  Jared Andes: Um, and so looking at the family, like you just mentioned, helping the parents know, hey, like, this is what the child's doing in therapy.
• 22:00
  Jared Andes: Here is how I can help support them.
• 22:02
  Jared Andes: Here's how we can coordinate these things together.
• 22:04
  Jared Andes: Mm-hmm.
• 22:05
  Jared Andes: And it's a huge part of play therapy.
• 22:07
  Cathi Spooner: Do you guy… From a, um, Jungian analytic play therapy, d- does the parent ever come into the playroom or is it only individual?
• 22:19
  Jared Andes: Um, so, uh, two things I would say it depends on.
• 22:21
  Jared Andes: One, um, the therapist.
• 22:23
  Jared Andes: I know some therapists who w- would almost never have a parent in the play therapy room.
• 22:28
  Jared Andes: JP very, very rarely had, um, parents in his play therapy room.
• 22:32
  Cathi Spooner: Mm-hmm.
• 22:32
  Jared Andes: I work with kids with selective mutism, and not bringing the parent into the play therapy room does not work very well.
• 22:39
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 22:39
  Jared Andes: They usually start off in the, in the room with me.
• 22:42
  Jared Andes: And then we work on having them, you know, work themselves back out of the room as we go on.
• 22:46
  Jared Andes: Um, so it would depend on the therapist, and then also depends on the, the parent and the child and, you know, what they're looking for.
• 22:53
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, interesting.
• 22:54
  Cathi Spooner: Okay.
• 22:55
  Cathi Spooner: If you, if you had the parent in the room, how do you, um, set them up to join the room or do you just bring… I, I'm a firm believer, 'cause I, I have people tell me this all the time, especially in Play Therapy Academy where we, we do a lot of skill building.
• 23:14
  Cathi Spooner: Um, they'll, they'll say they'll bring the parent in the room and then it doesn't go very well.
• 23:20
  Cathi Spooner: And then I'll say, "Well, did you talk to them about, like, why did you bring them in?" And they're like, "Oh, because, you know, the client asked." And like, well, you, you can say no.
• 23:32
  Cathi Spooner: Um, because it, it's not gonna go very, very well.
• 23:35
  Cathi Spooner: So I'm curious from a Jungian, um, analytic play therapy h- if, if you are gonna bring the parent in, is there a way that you kind of prepare them for it?
• 23:48
  Jared Andes: So, um, I, I think we prepare them for it with, uh, y- before they even show up to the office for the very first time.
• 23:53
  Jared Andes: With those conversations we have where, "Hey, play therapy looks a little bit different from therapy you may have experienced or seen on TV," depending on what the, you know, the parent's, um, experience with therapy is.
• 24:04
  Jared Andes: Your child's probably gonna really wanna come here, and they're gonna come out of the room, and they'll be like, "That was so fun." And you're maybe even gonna wonder what was happening in that room.
• 24:11
  Jared Andes: Was that therapy?
• 24:12
  Jared Andes: What's going on in there?
• 24:13
  Jared Andes: Right.
• 24:13
  Jared Andes: Um, and so I like to, I have those conversations before the child ever shows up.
• 24:17
  Jared Andes: And- Oh,
• 24:18
  Cathi Spooner: I love that… Jared Andes: then, you know, I'm thinking about bringing the parent in or when it's time to bring the parent in, I have conversations about here's my role in the play therapy room as the therapist.
• 24:28
  Cathi Spooner: Here's what I- you're gonna see from me.
• 24:30
  Cathi Spooner: Um, and you're gonna hear me saying things that are gonna sound maybe just a little bit different from what you're expecting, um, a therapist to say, uh- Mm-hmm … because the playroom is a different place.
• 24:38
  Cathi Spooner: Here is what I'm hoping from you, from your role in the room as a play ther- or as a parent.
• 24:43
  Cathi Spooner: What would you like your role to be?
• 24:44
  Cathi Spooner: And kind of collaborate on that.
• 24:46
  Cathi Spooner: And then I let them know,"Hey, your child is probably having some expectations from you as well. So what do you think those might be?" So a kind of exchange of what are the expectations, what are the roles, and then just know it's gonna look different.
• 24:58
  Cathi Spooner: It's not going to be what you think therapy looks like unless you're really well-versed in therapy.
• 25:03
  Cathi Spooner: That's awesome.
• 25:04
  Cathi Spooner: I love that.
• 25:05
  Cathi Spooner: That's a great way to explain it also, I think.
• 25:09
  Cathi Spooner: So if you're doing, um, I know people like to kinda get an idea from a play therapy standpoint what, what might a Jungian analytic play therapy session look like.
• 25:22
  Cathi Spooner: So if you're, if you're… Are there times when you sometimes lead, um, and do a certain activity, or is it, are you just kind of following and leading in the session?
• 25:36
  Cathi Spooner: Do you ever do, like, a directive activity?
• 25:39
  Cathi Spooner: How does that work?
• 25:41
  Jared Andes: So, um, I, I, I would actually again refer people back to Inscapes of the Child's World, uh, by John Allen, um, because he's got some great information on this as well.
• 25:49
  Jared Andes: The level of directiveness or non-directiveness, um, will depend on the therapist and their, their viewpoint.
• 25:56
  Jared Andes: Mm. Um, for me, it has a lot to do with the client's age and developmental level.
• 26:00
  Jared Andes: Um- Yes … I work a lot with neurodivergent people, and that is, you know, that's a whole different thing.
• 26:06
  Jared Andes: Um, so it depends a lot on the specific person that I'm in the room with.
• 26:08
  Jared Andes: Okay.
• 26:09
  Jared Andes: And I trust the relationship a lot.
• 26:11
  Jared Andes: Um, so, um, and, and sometimes I'm like, "Okay. You know what? I think this directive activity might be really helpful for this person," and I, I offer it, and it gets shut down really quickly.
• 26:21
  Jared Andes: Or we try it- … and the person's like, "Well, that was lame." And I'm like- … "Oh, okay.
• 26:25
  Jared Andes: Well, that didn't work." Um, but sometimes when I offer it, the person's like, "Okay, let's try it," and then it becomes a very, very important aspect, uh, you, you know, an important intervention, and they remember that as the, you know, they continue therapy.
• 26:38
  Jared Andes: Um, I, I like to say this, by the way.
• 26:42
  Jared Andes: In my, my very first time training, um, on Jungian analytical play therapy, I said, um, that Jungian analytical play therapy is a way of being and seeing, not a way of doing, which I think is true.
• 26:54
  Jared Andes: Mm. And I also realized afterwards that it's kind of like putting people in a pool and saying, "Swimming is a way of being with the water, so just be with it." Um, but people who are learning need to know how to do some dos, um, while they're learning how to be with and see.
• 27:10
  Jared Andes: Um, so, um, I think that's a really important thing to talk about.
• 27:13
  Jared Andes: You talked about one already, serial drawing-
• 27:16
  Cathi Spooner: Mm-hmm… Jared Andes: with John Allen.
• 27:18
  Cathi Spooner: Um, so for people who don't know that one, first off, it's chapter two of that book.
• 27:23
  Cathi Spooner: It's a great chapter.
• 27:24
  Cathi Spooner: Um, so the idea of that one is we sometimes look at a drawing from a child and think, "Okay, this is what this drawing means." We derive meaning.
• 27:33
  Cathi Spooner: We kind of d- even direct therapy off of that one drawing.
• 27:35
  Cathi Spooner: Um, and it's kind of like looking at one snapshot from a child's life and saying,"Aha, I think I understand what's going on here." Mm.
• 27:43
  Jared Andes: When I worked in the hospital, we really focused on trends, right?
• 27:46
  Jared Andes: Where is the blood pressure going?
• 27:47
  Jared Andes: Is it going up, down, staying the same?
• 27:49
  Jared Andes: Heart rate, same thing.
• 27:51
  Jared Andes: Doing serial drawings allows you to do that same concept.
• 27:54
  Jared Andes: Where are the trends going?
• 27:55
  Jared Andes: Where's the energy going?
• 27:56
  Jared Andes: Is this person in… Uh, John Allen, um, identifies three areas.
• 28:00
  Jared Andes: Is this in chaos?
• 28:02
  Jared Andes: Um, are we moving to resolution?
• 28:03
  Jared Andes: Where are we in, in this whole phase, uh, you know, in this, in this child's life?
• 28:08
  Jared Andes: So serial drawings, the child will come in and they'll draw.
• 28:12
  Jared Andes: Um, doesn't have to be every session, but, you know, they will draw regularly.
• 28:16
  Jared Andes: And again, it could be a directive.
• 28:18
  Jared Andes: You could say, "Hey, draw me a picture of your family.
• 28:19
  Jared Andes: Draw a picture of a house." You could do a, um, you know, person, house, tree.
• 28:23
  Jared Andes: Um, y- or if you're less directive, you could say,"Here, here's a piece of paper.
• 28:30
  Jared Andes: Draw whatever you'd like." Over time, as you're viewing how these pictures change and evolve, um, you're able to see how the therapeutic process is ex- is happening within the child.
• 28:42
  Jared Andes: And it's not a one picture tells me the whole story.
• 28:45
  Jared Andes: It's this series of photos gives me an idea over time what's happening.
• 28:51
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 28:51
  Cathi Spooner: That's awesome.
• 28:53
  Cathi Spooner: One, one of the ways I've used it is I've, um, used the prompt, if you were an animal, what kind of animal would you be, and what kind of environment would your animal like to live in?
• 29:04
  Cathi Spooner: And then we kinda use that to go from there.
• 29:09
  Cathi Spooner: So, yeah.
• 29:10
  Jared Andes: I'm smiling about that one, because I'm always assigned to the bald eagle.
• 29:13
  Jared Andes: Um, but I don't think I would choose that for myself.
• 29:15
  Jared Andes: I think I would choose something different.
• 29:18
  Cathi Spooner: That's funny.
• 29:19
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 29:20
  Cathi Spooner: You know what?
• 29:21
  Cathi Spooner: It's, it's interesting as you were, as you were talking about like the leading or following, and I think that's what struck me so much when I, when I did the training probably nine years ago now, um, is how similar that kind of philosophy is with child-centered play therapy.
• 29:48
  Cathi Spooner: Because when I got trained a gazillion years ago, you pretty much only had one option, and that was child-centered play therapy.
• 29:56
  Cathi Spooner: Um, and s- so now there's a, there's a l- lot more options.
• 30:01
  Cathi Spooner: I think the, the thing that I found beneficial about child-centered play therapy is you have to really learn how to get out of grown-up mode and give up control, and just really focus on being present-
• 30:17
  Jared Andes: Yeah
• 30:17
  Cathi Spooner: and being attuned.
• 30:19
  Cathi Spooner: Um, and I, I hear that a lot from what you're saying with the Jungian model, which is that u- that use of self, therapeutic use of self, it's the relationship, it's the relationship, it's the relationship, and everything kind of flows out of that.
• 30:38
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 30:38
  Jared Andes: And I think, um, sometimes we cr- we co-create interventions in the, the Jungian space, right?
• 30:44
  Jared Andes: While we're playing with the child, m- you know, the play is happening, it's evolving.
• 30:48
  Jared Andes: W- we may not know where it's going, but, um, because we're so in tune with the relationship and, um, because we are self-attuned, we can realize that, okay, I think this is the energy that the child's bringing to this.
• 31:00
  Jared Andes: This is where they're trying to get this to go.
• 31:02
  Jared Andes: Um, and we can w- you know, offer things sometimes.
• 31:04
  Jared Andes: Um, if the child's like, y- if they seem like they're stuck, or if it seems like I'm stuck and I'm not sure exactly where I need to go, I'll say,"Oh-" Like, what do I do?
• 31:11
  Jared Andes: Do I do this thing?
• 31:12
  Jared Andes: And the child will be like,"No, do that thing." Or they're like, "Yes, do that." Um, and so I follow the lead, but it gets kind of co-created, and those are the, the most powerful interventions I've found.
• 31:21
  Jared Andes: Not the ones that like, "Oh, okay, I read this in that book. I'm gonna go do that, like, on Thursday with that
• 31:25
  child at 3: 00." It's more, okay, we're… Like, I'm in this, I'm in the actual moment, I'm in the relationship.
• 31:33
  child at 3: Something about the unconscious connectedness- Mm … is telling me this is where this might need to go.
• 31:39
  child at 3: Let me try it out, and sometimes it works, like I said.
• 31:41
  child at 3: And, and when it does, it's very powerful.
• 31:43
  child at 3: And sometimes I'm like, "Oh, nope, I missed that one.
• 31:45
  child at 3: Okay, I'll try it again."
• 31:46
  Cathi Spooner: I know, and I, I, I find that, too.
• 31:49
  Cathi Spooner: Like, sometimes you're like, "This is an easy fix.
• 31:53
  Cathi Spooner: Oops, I got that wrong," you
• 31:57
  Jared Andes: know?
• 31:57
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 31:57
  Jared Andes: But you're like, "Okay." Easy fix for you.
• 31:57
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 31:57
  Jared Andes: But yeah, the child has their own idea.
• 31:59
  Jared Andes: Um, and, um, you know, after I finished with JP, I still had to do, um… There was a moratorium on the applications.
• 32:07
  Jared Andes: That's when I got my RPT.
• 32:09
  Jared Andes: Oh, wow.
• 32:09
  Jared Andes: And so I had to continue doing, um, supervision, and he suggested that I go to someone who did, who does, uh, child-centered, so I did child-centered afterwards, which was a very hard switch.
• 32:20
  Jared Andes: I feel like the switch from child-centered to Jungian analytical play therapy might be an easier switch, but I don't know.
• 32:25
  Jared Andes: I've only done it one way.
• 32:26
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 32:27
  Jared Andes: Um, but y- I think you're right.
• 32:29
  Jared Andes: The, um, the relationship is such a key focus for both.
• 32:33
  Jared Andes: That w- that part was so easy.
• 32:34
  Jared Andes: I can, I could be in the relationship with the child.
• 32:37
  Jared Andes: I could surrender the control of the session, um, knowing that I'm gonna be able to set therapeutic and safe boundaries for both of us.
• 32:43
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 32:44
  Cathi Spooner: That's awesome.
• 32:46
  Cathi Spooner: Well, I, um, I know you guys have a training coming up, um, at this month actually.
• 32:55
  Cathi Spooner: Do you wanna- Yeah … for people who are interested in learning more about Jungian analytic theory, do you wanna tell them a little bit about the training and, like, h- when it is, how long it is?
• 33:13
  Cathi Spooner: Is there a virtual option?
• 33:15
  Cathi Spooner: Is there an in-person option?
• 33:17
  Cathi Spooner: How do they register?
• 33:20
  Jared Andes: I'm happy to do that.
• 33:20
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 33:21
  Jared Andes: We're… So the training is, um, Back to the Future: The Past, Present, and Future of Jungian Analytical Play Therapy.
• 33:27
  Jared Andes: Now, that's a mouthful.
• 33:28
  Jared Andes: Um, so we'll be looking at Jungian analytical play therapy, um, through the lens of Back to the Future.
• 33:35
  Jared Andes: Um, so we're gonna start in the past, and we're gonna work all the way up to where we are today, and look into what the future may hold for, uh, Jungian analytical play therapy, and play therapy in general.
• 33:45
  Jared Andes: Um- Hmm … we are going to talk about the theory.
• 33:48
  Jared Andes: We're gonna, we're gonna look really deeply into the theory, the anatomy of the psyche, all of those important things, all of those aspects that you have to know if you're gonna do this, because theory drives the intervention, not the other way around, right?
• 33:59
  Jared Andes: So, um- Yeah … JP would say all of the time, like, without the theory, the interventions are dangerous.
• 34:05
  Jared Andes: Um, and, and by the way, I didn't say this yet, but Carl Jung called this a most dangerous method.
• 34:10
  Jared Andes: Um, so we really do need to know the model- Mm-hmm … the, the theory really well.
• 34:14
  Jared Andes: Um, and so we're gonna take six hours, um, which is still just the introduction.
• 34:19
  Jared Andes: It's a-
• 34:19
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah… Jared Andes: great way to that you continue to work on and master over the, the course of your, your whole career.
• 34:26
  Cathi Spooner: Um, so six hours, uh, in Lehigh on June 26th.
• 34:31
  Cathi Spooner: Um, great way to get some history, uh, CEs if you need them, and of course, seminal theory, um, because that's six hours of a seminal theory Um, and it also, we're gonna be doing some of our own inner work, um, because like I mentioned, this is about self-attunement.
• 34:46
  Cathi Spooner: You can't go into the, um, play therapy room, you can't enter temenos and be safe if you don't know who you are and what's going on with yourself.
• 34:53
  Cathi Spooner: So we're gonna do a little bit of that, um, of course encourage people to do their own work individually as well, um, but we're gonna look at that.
• 35:00
  Cathi Spooner: Um, and yeah, if you're interested, it's utahplaytherapy.org.
• 35:05
  Cathi Spooner: You can get your tickets and registration there, um, and sign up.
• 35:08
  Cathi Spooner: We- I think we have nine tickets left.
• 35:11
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, okay.
• 35:12
  Cathi Spooner: And is it, is it just in person?
• 35:15
  Jared Andes: Yes, it is just in person.
• 35:16
  Jared Andes: Oh, okay.
• 35:16
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, that's interest- yeah, that's awesome.
• 35:19
  Cathi Spooner: Um, and I, you know, I think you said something too, I think is really, really important, and we were kinda talking about this before 'cause you and I both supervise people, um, pursuing their registered play therapy credential, but also like helping people learn how to take theory and apply it.
• 35:39
  Cathi Spooner: That's what, that's what supervision is.
• 35:41
  Cathi Spooner: How do you take a theory and how do you apply it in practical application?
• 35:45
  Cathi Spooner: And, um, I, I think it's really important to learn a theory, and one of the ways that you figure out what theory you resonate with is going to different trainings to get information and learning about the theory to see if it's something that resonates with you, and then you have the opportunity from there to learn how to apply it, and that's the key.
• 36:16
  Cathi Spooner: Like the training is key, but a consultation is key as well.
• 36:22
  Cathi Spooner: A lot of what you were talking about before, which is that, that self-work and how do you tell if it's me or if it's the client, or what do I do in this situation?
• 36:34
  Cathi Spooner: My client did this.
• 36:36
  Cathi Spooner: But you're always looking through the lens of the theory, so you're looking through the lens, how would Jungian analytic play therapy, how would, how would they define what is at the root of the problem, and what are the patterns sustaining it?
• 36:56
  Cathi Spooner: So you're looking at it through that theoretical lens.
• 37:00
  Cathi Spooner: But the … And then you're gonna learn how to apply, what does that look like in the first phase?
• 37:05
  Cathi Spooner: What does that look like in the second phase?
• 37:07
  Cathi Spooner: How do you know when they're ready to terminate- Successfully.
• 37:13
  Cathi Spooner: Well, you're only gonna know if you figure out what stage of change they're in and where they are in the healing process, which means you have to- Yeah go back to your theory model to figure out what your theory would say is evidence of their readiness for discharge.
• 37:30
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, so I think- Mm … I think that's awesome.
• 37:33
  Cathi Spooner: I, I've been excited to see that Utah Association for Play Therapy, you guys have been doing some seminal and historic… We kind of talked about that before we hit the live, so I think it's, um, awesome.
• 37:47
  Cathi Spooner: You guys have a lot of good trainings going on there.
• 37:51
  Jared Andes: Yeah, I'm excited for the lineup that I have this year, and we haven't, um, we haven't told everybody or haven't told anybody about what's going on for next year but it's in the works.
• 37:59
  Jared Andes: I'm excited for that.
• 37:59
  Jared Andes: I think we're gonna bring in some, some, uh, great trainings that people are going to enjoy.
• 38:04
  Jared Andes: And, um- Oh … also just playing off of what you said, there's a, a Carl Jung quote, um-
• 38:08
  Cathi Spooner: Oh… Jared Andes: specific Um, so he said, "Know all the theories, master all the techniques, but when it comes to being," uh, sorry, "when it comes to touching another soul, just be a human soul." Mm.
• 38:21
  Cathi Spooner: That's awesome.
• 38:23
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 38:24
  Cathi Spooner: Kind of speaks to that healing power of presence too.
• 38:28
  Jared Andes: Yeah.
• 38:28
  Cathi Spooner: And knowing how you're gonna Gotta
• 38:29
  Jared Andes: master it and then yes.
• 38:31
  Cathi Spooner: Yes.
• 38:31
  Jared Andes: We can be that healing presence.
• 38:33
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 38:34
  Cathi Spooner: Well, awesome.
• 38:35
  Cathi Spooner: Well, thank you.
• 38:36
  Cathi Spooner: So for those of you who are interested, we are gonna put in the comments, we'll put a link to the training so you can register.
• 38:46
  Cathi Spooner: Also, if you want to get in touch with Jared, you can alway- I, we put some of the links in the description, so you can check out his website, you can connect with him on Facebook and Instagram.
• 39:01
  Cathi Spooner: If you're interested in learning about what the Utah Association for Play Therapy is up to, then pop over to their website.
• 39:10
  Cathi Spooner: So and that, that is it for today.
• 39:14
  Cathi Spooner: So we will see you guys… Well, I'll see you guys next week, and Jared will hopefully see you at the training.
• 39:21
  Jared Andes: Yes.
• 39:22
  Cathi Spooner: All right.
• 39:22
  Cathi Spooner: Excited for that Thank you for joining me on this episode of Next Level Play Therapy.
• 39:33
  Cathi Spooner: I hope you found the discussion valuable and gained new insights and ideas to support your work helping children, adolescents, and families heal.
• 39:42
  Cathi Spooner: If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave a review.
• 39:48
  Cathi Spooner: Your feedback helps to improve and reach more people who can benefit from this information.
• 39:54
  Cathi Spooner: Remember, play therapy is a powerful tool for healing and growth.
• 39:58
  Cathi Spooner: Whether you're a new play therapist or experienced, I encourage you to continue your learning journey to unlock the potential of play in your own work and relationships.
• 40:09
  Cathi Spooner: If you have any questions or topic suggestions for future episodes, I'd love to hear from you.
• 40:17
  Cathi Spooner: Connect with me on social media and visit my website at Renewing Hearts Play Therapy Training to stay updated on upcoming episodes, trainings, and resources.
• 40:29
  Cathi Spooner: Thank you once again for listening to Next Level Play Therapy.
• 40:33
  Cathi Spooner: Until next time, keep playing, learning, and growing.