Latest / OCCULTINARIUM / Occultinarium - EP 6 - Thoth VS Ride Waite Smith

Transcript

Occultinarium - EP 6 - Thoth VS Ride Waite Smith · OCCULTINARIUM

• Lynn: Hello and welcome to tonight's episode of the Occultinarium We are the voices of the Occultinarium and this night's hosts are... Luigi: Luigi Amelie: Amelie Adriana: Adriana Lynn: and Lynn. ⁓ tonight's episode we thought about tackling our favorite subject, the tarot and we wanted to talk about ⁓ one of the blazing questions or blazing topics about RWS, the differences, how are they the same, how they're Do we use them? Why do we use them? What do they mean? that is tonight's big topic, opened. Let's talking about the origin ⁓ of two decks first, ⁓ when they were and by whom. Luigi, would you like to? ⁓ Yes. ⁓ We start them. ⁓ Yes. Adriana: you Amelie: Should we start with the RWS as it is older? Adriana: The Rider-Waite Yes, yes, yes. Lynn: So Rider, Waite, Smith already in the name. It's Rider, Waite and Smith. And tragically or funnily enough, the rider part is just the publisher. is the man ⁓ the ⁓ and the idea and Smith the woman who actually made the cards and made the artwork. Luigi, do you want to say something about? Luigi: ⁓ So yeah, Waite stands for Arthur Edward Waite, born in New Or was he born in Brooklyn, New York, I think, but anyway, and then died in the UK. But I'm sure he had UK descendants anyway, not that he matters. ⁓ Smith stands for, ⁓ like Lynn just said, the artist behind the Smith deck, Pamela Smith. also from the UK and very close to me in terms of inspiration, terms of devotion, terms of admiration. Because like you pointed out as well, a of people would refer... ⁓ So the four of us know each other and we know how we interact and we discuss the deck, etc. But ⁓ many people might benefit know that I will never refer to the Smith deck as the Rider Waite or the Rider Waite Smith ⁓ either. Lynn: Mm-hmm. Luigi: purely because if you read through history, suppose, Pamela sometimes nicknamed Pixie, she was only paid like a fee and no royalties for the deck that became one of the most popular, commercially popular at least as well, decks in the world, ⁓ or even history, I suppose, at this point. So I feel like sometimes we do ⁓ a disservice ⁓ referring to deck just, what about the hard... the Rider Waite, what about the Waite deck, what about the Rider deck and never include the powerful name of the person that inspires all of those images Coleman Smith. So we'll always refer to it as the Smith deck to give her back some power. Lynn: I also found in the I said just the RWS deck, but I find myself also more drawn to chucking out the R and just going Smith deck instead, because there's just so more focus, or there should be more focus on who actually created them. Definitely, I feel not the publisher. mean, they, what do they do? They just put it out there. mean, it's a big job as well, but it's not ⁓ the creation. ⁓ Amelie: It must have a thing of the time because I expect that publishing something, you know, ⁓ was ⁓ a big deal when it came to like just printed things in general. So I guess that it was a thing of the time, ⁓ like, of the way they printed it and also because there so many different colors, so had to like, it was like a thing to actually print them. So ⁓ in the day, it makes sense, maybe now not so much. Lynn: Yeah Luigi: Yeah. Lynn: Mm. Adriana: Yeah. Well, it was published initially in 1909. So it was really the beginning of 20th century. And they have it all from the cards that we used to play in the course and so on, the normal cards. And used more mainly as a tool of divination. But as we know perfectly, tarot is deeper than that. It's talking to you. It's more connected to your subconscious. It's like... Lynn: Possibly. Adriana: the universal consciousness talking to you more like an archetype, like a guidance more than I go to meet finally the six foot tall and blue eyed guy that I have been waiting for the past 30 years, but it seems not to enough. But I think that this is the thing that I would like to take in consideration is that that is the most ⁓ Lynn: You Adriana: famous or popular deck cards, it has estimated over a hundred million copies sold worldwide, you know, over 20 As well, it has been called for the imagination of people and that mystical side of divination and magic that we can see it as well in the movies Also, I have noticed that people are very afraid of gods. are, you know, particularly if they are religious, they are Christian, Catholic ones, it's related to evil stuff. Yeah. Lynn: It's the devil. It's the devil. Adriana: An education thing that we had to do that to explain to people that something that has been there a tool to understand and to heal ourselves to never consider something like evil good or bad. But ⁓ there no distinction. ⁓ Every emotion belongs you, you know? So you don't have to put in categories or say, ⁓ I'm going to be... burn in hell, you know, because this lady read my cards, you know. So it's always like an to the cards to explain that there is nothing related to evil that is completely safe. That the messages, yes. Lynn: Yeah, no, but this is kind of it's kind of a different topic we can get into at some point because it's very much I mean, it's so much related to to how ⁓ divination general belongs to witchcraft and witchcraft has been and is outlawed in a lot of countries. And that's what ⁓ of the reasons why it's so difficult still for a lot of people to ⁓ open up to ⁓ gypsy craft or the witchcraft to any form of divination. There are still a lot of countries where it's illegal. There are states in the US where divination is illegal. Adriana: Yes. ⁓ Lynn: So I've actually done illegal things. I think I've probably used tarot cards in ⁓ is illegal? Come get me. So, know, but this is like... ⁓ But yeah, that's a different topic to get into at some point. But the that to get back to Pamela, ⁓ Cole Smith and you mentioned ⁓ Adriana with how used to be playing cards and people divining with normal playing cards. Adriana: ⁓ wow. Lynn: The thing that I ⁓ know that she made or where she made the difference is that she gave the playing cards and the faces of those, you know, like five of clubs and whatnot. She gave them theater. She gave them faces. She gave them scenes. And she has this whole background as a theater person, which is why ⁓ cards also have this very theatrical look to them, like particular scenes of like Adriana: Cheers. ⁓ Lynn: of a theatre sequence. Yeah, and that is Pamela who gave us that, gave us something actual to read rather than just, you know, getting off of the top of our heads that, you know, a five of clubs might mean so-and-so. She actually gives us like, okay, well, we call it a five of discs and this is mean so-and-so, you know. So that's that is one of the first things that she really did basically. Adriana: love from this deck is the symbolism, the symbolism of each card ⁓ is each object, each little draw has a symbolic message for you, the reader. And think that it's very intimate. It builds up, it helps to build up a relationship with the reader. Lynn: Yes, very. Amelie: also find that this deck is probably, it's very easy to read intuitively if you don't really have too much of like a background. This is something that you can approach. I know obviously can be a bit daunting if you feel like I don't know enough, ⁓ but find like if you study the deck, it's intuitively, it helps you a lot with the theatrical scenes on card. Adriana: Yes. Lynn: Speaking of theatrical scenes, the first one, I didn't shuffle, but the first one of mine was here. like the ten of swords, right? ⁓ And and mean with that, ⁓ it's, you it's pretty in your face. And you know, there's a guy with ten swords in his back and you immediately get a feeling from it. You know, immediately like, ⁓ you know, and you might not get that in the thought, but so it's very visual. very like, yeah. Luigi: What a great first card! Amelie: Hahaha Lynn: in your face. Yeah, very stimulating. Yeah. But I... Yes, she's... Go ahead. Luigi: visually stimulating. Amelie is on the birth-style to say something. Adriana: And what I also like. Amelie: No, because you said these are the kind of things that you don't really get in a Thoth. I find that Thoth puts emphasis on other things instead. think each card, and this is probably why a lot of people think that tarot can be evil, because there are depictions of things that might be very uncomfortable to see. But we have to also understand that there's both good things and bad things. to kind of trigger something within us, you need to have a picture ⁓ is a little bit shocking. like all these swords going through a person's body might be ⁓ very and shocking, but it has to evoke something. ⁓ ⁓ Lynn: of human nature. you know. ⁓ But yeah, since we're mentioning Thoth, maybe we should yeah start talk a little bit about who ⁓ made the Thoth deck so that we have that side as well. Amelie: Yeah. Adriana: But, but. But before we get to that, I would like to emphasize the title, the difference with the playing cards of divination and so on, is the creation of the Major Arcanas. And the Major Arcanas, the archetypes and the power of this card is related to ⁓ you want to relate them ⁓ the planets, with you know, signs, with everything, the houses, is... ⁓ Lynn: Yes, right. Mm. Mm. Adriana: another window that is even deeper, that it gives us as well the correlations of lower arcanas and the major arcanas, that it brings a deeper sense and deeper message. So I think that is what it creates this deco card to me. It's like, yes, it's like showing all the aspects of life in a symbolic way that you can read it in different manners and according only per card but the association of the cards are alongside or at the bottom of the deck as well. So there is a lot of different ways how you can relate to the cards Amelie: so ⁓ we should talk a little bit about the Thoth deck now. ⁓ in the room and he's saying, please talk about it. ⁓ Lynn: Yes, the Crowley, you said it! Also, if there's any name in the history that makes people go like, ⁓ my god, Alastair Crowley. Famous, furious Alastair Crowley. And ⁓ here was Alastair had the visions or he's made plans of how a card should it was not him actually designing the cards that was also completely not in his hands yeah do you want to go talk about that again Luigi yeah yes it was from Lady Frieda Harris Amelie: That was Frieda Harris. That was Frieda Harris. Lady Frieda Harris. Luigi: Yeah, Lady... Harris, yeah. I guess it's always an interesting and I guess in the climate that we live in nowadays, it's also a bit of a sensitive conversation. My feeling is what we try to do at the best of our abilities, it's never like who gave more to the creation of the deck versus who gave less. I think the flow of life, it's the constant equilibrium, the flux and the reflux and so forth. just say that to say, obviously if we look at any given tarot card or any given deck or any given occult tradition, ⁓ of the esoteric titles of each ⁓ and or minor, there's lots of lords, isn't it? ⁓ we can get more into it later on, but ⁓ with the top deck as well, like Lord of such and such, Lord of such and such. ⁓ Crowley, ⁓ ⁓ already, because he's so famous, at least still is, but was as in is no longer alive. Like he made such an impact on, you know, pop culture every many, many aspects ⁓ the ⁓ scene we experience as readers, as practitioners, as ⁓ witches so forth. ⁓ But you may say the name Alistair Crowley, people will be like, ⁓ yeah, I came across this before. I have a face formulating in front of me versus Lady Frieda Harris. They might not be able even aware of what she looks like. And even with the Smith deck, they might not even be aware of who Pamela is. I think Pamela may have had a bit more of a resurgence in recent years, but I definitely still am to come across more people that bring forward the name of Frida versus the name of Crowley. And for a reason, you know, because Crowley did a lot of ⁓ interesting things. Yeah. Lynn: Stuff. He did things. Luigi: I wasn't trying to say what's a good word for it. Interesting things, old stuff like you said. But yeah, I think because even ⁓ Frida and Pamela, Pixie, whenever they created something, they still had to submit via letter, I suppose. this is what I've done, ⁓ Arthur. is what I've done, Alistair. What do you think of it? And then they will be like, can you change this to that, that to that? So there is constantly a ⁓ feedback isn't it? But I guess One way to look at it is that both Crowley and Waite, they carry the occult knowledge, I suppose, ⁓ maybe because at the time we ⁓ lived heavily and still do now, I suppose to an extent, ⁓ a heavy patriarchal society. So maybe the men had more power and more access to certain volumes of knowledge that maybe women didn't have. ⁓ And the societies they created, even the Golden Dawn Society, Lynn: Hmm. Luigi: It wouldn't necessarily be. I think they had women in it. But you know, if you look even at the founders, the founders are all... Yeah, yeah, yeah, she was, she was. Lynn: Yeah, mean, Pamela Colesmith was part of it. I think Pamela Colesmith was part, and wasn't Frida Harris also part of the Golden Dawn? Yeah, I think they were both part of it, yeah. Luigi: Yeah, yeah, she was part of it. But the whole part... Amelie: about to say Frieda Harris was the one that was kind of pushing to make the deck really. So... Lynn: Yeah, she was pushing it. Luigi: Yeah, yeah, I guess what I still have to say is if you look at the founders of the Golden Dawn, the four men, again, we're talking about the four men. So I guess I'm trying to depict a picture where men are always at the front face of the public or always at the front face of, you know, given field, even in this field, which is occultism, I suppose. So this is for the listeners to realize that I personally and I think all of my peers here in the podcast with me, we're all trying to give power back to the beautiful women that have created such beautiful decks. let's not ⁓ or disrespect or disregard any of the influence ⁓ the genius even if we want to use that word, ⁓ the ⁓ participants, the male creators, the male component of the process gave. ⁓ Lynn: Yeah, absolutely. mean, one wouldn't exist without the other, really. I'm just, yeah, and I think... Luigi: Precisely. Adriana: Yeah, and I think it's giving birth, it's like the male united to feminine, know, they're giving birth to a beautiful thing. So I think it's ⁓ more than competition. And have the skills, you know, the male was the voice, the women were the makers, ⁓ know, creators ⁓ as ⁓ It's beauty, you know, the ⁓ design, drawing, the artistry. Lynn: ⁓ yeah. Adriana: that we have to take in consideration as well. Because I think they go hand in hand and we have to stop probably all the things that happen around us is competing women and men, just trying to integrate what are the skills that both of us are putting on the table ⁓ to things together. But I agree, historically, historically there... Lynn: Yeah, no, there's a lot of competition already. Luigi: Yeah Adriana: Yeah, historically they are trying to minimize the divine feminine, but at their own expenses because, you know, we have things to contribute, you know, and beauty is one of them. Lynn: Mm. Mm. Amelie: When comes to Aleister and Frieda it's very difficult to outshine someone like Aleister because he was just such a character. Let's just say he was just such a character. And he just did so many shocking things. it's quite obvious. It would matter if was a man or a woman, if he was exactly he was, if that person was like him. Lynn: character. Adriana: character. Amelie: they were just, you know, the shock factor was there and it's still there even though we're so used to shock factors and he was that so long ago. It's just hard to kind of like that. Lynn: Mm. Mm. Mm. I find really cool ⁓ the pairing with Crowley and Frieda and with her paintings is that ⁓ he maybe like have directed or directed her, ⁓ it's only her who had the knowledge about sacred geometry and she used so much about that, like with it in there ⁓ her paintings that even like as just on Lookers might not even understand what's going on. But it's just like this ⁓ like thing of how how there's like layers and layers. behind the layers of a card and just pulls you into things. it's like a heart, it's like, or like with a difference, for example, you have like the, the, the Smith deck and you have a still scene or you can imagine like motion in it, but it's a scene and it's kind of frozen in time and you can intuit on that. And then with that sacred geometry that you have in that you, think, notice most in or I maybe in the, in the mages, because there's a lot going on in those and you not like just looking at like a quiet calm scene but there's just so much going on so your eyes go from here to there to there to there you know it's like it's always like a flux in the card and ⁓ might notice something completely different in one reading and that you haven't really noticed that much before or not put so much weight on but it's just you know ⁓ ⁓ Luigi: Yeah, definitely. No, no, no, I agree with what you said completely. And I think when trying to compare, not that we need to compare, but when trying to compare these two beautiful iconic decks, ⁓ guess the best way that you can present them ⁓ to given public, ⁓ I this myth benefits from a level of ⁓ inclusivity introductory power. if that's even a term that I can use, know, like easier access, no necessary knowledge of the higher levels of occultism and esotericism. You can simply rely on the beautiful theatrical images that provides us with, whether perhaps with a tough deck, depending on what trail of life you're ⁓ on, ⁓ know, or whatever path you want to follow. ⁓ you are the the magician or the witch or one that is pursuing is on the pursuit of knowledge, ⁓ the Thoth deck is more like, ⁓ let me see if I can ascend to the bigger, higher, wider the realms of chaos, the realms of questioning, ⁓ the of mystery. And there's beauty in both of them. I think the not flaw, but the only ⁓ fault that we people Lynn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Luigi: fall on or fall in or fall under is that because this introductory fame that the Smith deck ⁓ possesses the more mysterious fame that the Thoth possesses, ⁓ the always gets given the label, at least in my experience, ⁓ for kind of person I came across using the Smith as a simply easy like, there's not really much going on there. And sometimes that ⁓ hurts my feelings I think Pixie put so much in it. And on top of the theatrics, on top of the Shakespearean, the thespian images, you also have the element of synesthesia, isn't it, that she used to create it. So to get to that, like the ten of swords that you showed us at the beginning, to get to that through synesthesia, like what a process, know, what a miracle. Lynn: ⁓ yeah true Mm. Mm. Yeah. Amelie: Maybe you should explain what that is if someone doesn't know. Luigi: That's a very good point, Amelie. ⁓ I mean, I'm not an expert, but my comprehension is that you can see colors through hearing music. That's my basic comprehension of it. Pixie an artist, ⁓ constantly ⁓ To an artist is to be some level always constantly exposed to music. Music is the highest source of inspiration, people say, isn't it? So I guess like... ⁓ Lynn: Hahaha Yeah Luigi: besides the directions received from Arthur, from Edward, from Wait, have to do that all the time, Arthur, Edward, Wait, it can be like a pop song. ⁓ those directions, there is also the divine inspiration ⁓ comes from her natural I suppose. Amelie: you Lynn: absolutely. ⁓ Adriana: But even when you are working with the cards, the decks feel different. The vibration, the frequency when you are reading the cards, it change dramatically from one deck to another. ⁓ of them ⁓ into different frequencies and ⁓ communicate and sometimes the message even in the same card, it the message. Lynn: Yeah, I agree. ⁓ Adriana: I think you have to be like aligned and attuned to the vibration of each deck order to connect with that deck. Amelie: How do you feel, how do you feel, how do you feel that them two differ as in like how, what, what you, you said there is a vibration and there's a difference. How, what's the vibration of the Thoth deck for you and the vibration for this Smiths for you? Adriana: Myself. Yeah, vote. Yes. For me, thing is I'm extremely sensitive to energies, to and it's part of my daily job working energies and vibrations. So sometimes I found the Thoth card too much, too strong. I found that sometimes it's like, it's like ⁓ from me, you know, it's a deck for me, demanding. It's a deck sometimes that... Luigi: Thoth card has taken... Thoth deck has taken Adriana! Amelie: ⁓ dear. Adriana: Yes. sometimes I find a little bit of resistance between the deck and myself because probably it's the Fiero led me myself. It's deck that is demanding a lot of submission that you have to submit to the card to bring the message across. The Wait ⁓ I think the other one found is more pleasant, ⁓ is more like childlike maybe because the images are not abstract, they are your little figurines something like that that make it more like ⁓ connecting to you probably in a more charming soft than the Thoth The Thoth to me, sometimes I have dig, I cannot even open it. Yes, yes, yes. So to me, the thought sometimes I have like some aversion, ⁓ not because of it's because the vibration is quite strong and sometimes is, what can I say? ⁓ Luigi: There's a bit of an innocent, I suppose. That's what you're saying, Adriana. Adriana: working with shadows and darkness as well as the same light with the light. Yeah. It's unfiltered. Yeah. Yeah. That is my personal. Amelie: It's pretty raw. Lynn: How about you, Amelie? Amelie: Yeah. one? ⁓ Lynn: How about you? How do you feel the decks ⁓ the difference energetically? ⁓ Amelie: aesthetically. do prefer with a Thoth deck. I really the layers I find it very interesting in sense of symbolism and it also triggers because there's so many different lines and colours and geometry. sometimes it just triggers like a shape that haven't seen or it's just for that specific reading. I it more difficult with the Smith deck because the ⁓ pictures a scene so quite straightforward and very like human-like, so to say. It's very Yeah, I agree with ⁓ where ⁓ think that the Smith Deck, it being said as an easier or simpler, ⁓ but a lot of symbolism in them as well. I think a lot of people might not see ⁓ because so cleverly kind of hidden, but it's in plain sight. But also you kind of need to know what the different symbols ⁓ stand Well, I feel like the Thoth deck is almost like they've like the Golden Dawn, but they kind of it all. It's kind of like bare it all. Well, things have been a little bit more hidden, I find, with like the Thoth deck It's just there. But we might not be able to see it because we might not have knowledge of all these and lines and things. There are so many books. And I think that's another thing. why people feel like the Thoth deck is a bit daunting because there is a lot of knowledge that you can read a lot of books and there's so much you can learn but you don't have to do it but it's great if you do if you're interested in it and I think it can be a bit daunting for a lot of people. I like both of them but I do prefer the Thoth deck because it's straight to the point and I feel like there's no, it doesn't give you the frills. easier to read for other people with a Smith deck because it kind of like makes you express things Like Adriana said, it's a little bit, it makes me, it can you express things softer. While I find Thoth deck is just raw and straight to the point. So if you're not you might say something a little bit too be too eager and be, you know, and people might find it a little bit scary, but it's not scary. about yourself, Lynn Lynn: Well for me I also prefer the Thoth deck to read but like there's one thing there's one thing about the the Smith deck also that I want to mention because it is like the is the biggest deck or most popular deck in a way ⁓ and because of it being it's also inspired a lot of the or most of the other decks that out there like If you pick up any tarot deck out there, some are really just some of them an artist who's actually made their own ⁓ or their own thing, their own spin, but it's kind of rare. Like most are based off of ⁓ Smith deck with the symbolism. No matter, some go more into depth because they actually know also what they're doing ⁓ and it's just like pretty art basically. just to have that mentioned. it's them and it's really rare to find a deck that is based off of the Thoth deck. I only have one, so far more I'm sure, but I know of one and I have one that is based off the Thoth deck. So this is ⁓ much ⁓ What do appreciate about ⁓ Smith is like what you say, ⁓ it's easier to access to ⁓ and Through that also, I have some of my favorite decks, I'm obviously also more so based off of the Smith deck, but with different vibes, the different energy to them. So I like, I love reading with those. But when I read for others, like, ⁓ if it's on a professional level, I go back to the Thoth deck almost, I think 100%. If I read for friends, I can switch it up. but I do prefer the Thoth deck. But that has been a thing before I got better with the cards. I've grown up with a Thoth deck, my mum had it, and it was the only deck that she had. ⁓ So was very familiar with images, although not so much the symbolism or anything. The images are familiar, very in my life. But I did find them hard, like as a child also, like I did feel this, there's something creepy almost about them and a bit hard to access. And then if you have that suddenly the Smith deck and it's like, ⁓ you know, this is much easier to intuit off in the beginning, I feel, you start out learning. ⁓ my I think my sense or my intuition somehow flipped ⁓ changed because now I feel it for me, the scenes are very in my face. scenes of the Smith, they're quite in my face. ⁓ while with the Thoth, it's that energy and that, that that the card portrays that it's giving off and that I understand, I understand like also where Adriana was coming from, that it's very powerful. But I feel like I tap much better into that than the theater scenes. But that's me personally, because I know some people are amazing. They, they, They pull one, like a Smith deck, then they go completely off of the picture as well. They intuit other things into it as well that isn't necessarily on the image. know, it works. mean, tarot, works with any deck as long as you have a connection to it. I more so a connection to the thought, them to the Smith, if it's between the two of them. Adriana: Mm. Amelie: Does this mean that it's like two against two here? Because I'm not sure which one Luigi prefers but I have a feeling. Lynn: I see, Luigi, what about you? Luigi: So difficult to say preference because my reasoning is a bit more boring and a bit more Capricornian than the reasons that you provided. ⁓ I use mostly the Smith, ⁓ that's because it's the first deck that was ever given to me. And I'm like a duck, know, I ⁓ ⁓ I'm sure that if the first deck that I was given would have been a tough deck, today I will be standing in front of you. Lynn: you Yeah. Luigi: virtually I suppose, but I will be talking about, yeah, the top deck, it's my roots, it's my core, it's my engine. So this is purely like destiny, I suppose. And that's why I try to serve it at the best of my abilities, because think nothing is circumstantial, ⁓ coincidences, everything it's meant to be, within there's room for debate and ⁓ argumentation, cetera. But my friend that introduced me to the realm of tarot, she gifted me with this ⁓ Lynn: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm. Luigi: Radiant Smith deck and he came into my hands and he's still here with me today. not Touchwood. It's not damaged yet. It's not broken. It's not lost. Touchwood, touchwood, touchwood, touchwood. Now talking about it makes me anxious, ⁓ like losing the beauty, ⁓ beautiful ⁓ that I have with it. ⁓ Talking about the loss of it, not talking about it. It's beautiful. So yeah, I think I guess I use more of the Smith than I do the Thoth, but I love the Thoth equally. I think, ⁓ don't know if it's worth mentioning and hopefully will not confuse anyone too much. I think if we, because we know, at least the four of us and many other people beyond the four of us, ⁓ know that tarot is a formula. Like it's many things, you can't summarize but one word that you can use to describe tarot is the formula. So I think so long as you know the formula or you act upon the formula, you could be using a Thoth, you could be using a Smith, you could be using a Briscola for the Italians that are listening, you you could be use any given deck of cards and it wouldn't matter. When I say wouldn't matter simply means that you can still make magic, you can still perform miracles. I think all of you said in your own terms, in your own words, like every individual vibrates differently, every individual channels differently. But probably Given the chance, if they say, what deck do you want to grab? I will always go and grab the Smith. Additionally, ⁓ I think also came into my visions and I still haven't met with Frieda, for example. ⁓ also, was No, you couldn't be there. Amelie remembered that when met in London, we also witnessed her chimney, know, ⁓ Treadwell's bookshop. ⁓ Amelie: Yes. Yes. Luigi: So I've gone there so many times and now I feel every time that I go there, the more I go there, the more I feel the stronger draw or connection or like the music that Pamela listened to to create the deck has been played in that room in front of her chimney, in front of her fireplace there and then. So I think Destiny wanted me to, you know, thrive with this deck. But as a... ⁓ Person that likes to identify as versatile as possible, I like to think that I can just grab any deck and make it work. But that's the one that I have the longevity with. ⁓ thank you! Amelie: think you can. I think you can. do. I don't that it's like, ⁓ because prefer a deck, that that's the only deck you're going to work with. I think has like a connection either with the actual deck that you have or a connection with like what you've seen first. ⁓ I think like to for your mum having the Thoth deck was the first deck that Luigi: Mm-hmm. Amelie: you know, that you've seen, I think that's a big impact specifically when you were a kid. And also being gifted a deck from someone special, that's also a big thing and I think that makes a very big impact on what you kind of prefer. But this doesn't mean that you can't use, I don't know, hundred different decks. Lynn: Yeah. Luigi: Yeah, yeah, no, totally. Adriana: That's my point because did the course, but I didn't finish because I think ⁓ they with Luis Hay, you know, the publisher, they had ⁓ title course where they have like X of very famous title readers and title teachers. And each one them, But surprise, but the Louis Hay is publishing their own deck. sometimes, ⁓ they explain the class with their own deck. ⁓ they're promoting, and it's more like a commercial for me. It was more a commercial thing for them to promote their own deck ⁓ above anyone else. But when you will see their decks, it's exactly the same thing. It's the same. There is no really more explanation. They simplify, maybe they change the image of the person or so on. So for me, these two still the root of both of them because the Thoth is completely the opposite and very different to the other one. But they still power and the synergy and the energy. You can feel with thought, I feel the Alistair's presence. Sometimes it's like feeling his presence here. And if I get a little bit intimidated. But I don't know what you feel about now creating their ⁓ tarot deck. I don't know, probably I'm a classic. I'm respectful of the creation of the people. ⁓ Lynn: Louis. Adriana: I think Luigi should create his own deck because he has a lot of information, lot of symbolism, a lot of things to bring new to people. But as I see now, Lynn: No. Amelie: he has to find his female counterpart to Lynn: see something going on here. Amelie is also creating ⁓ a Luigi, you to jump in there? I you wanted to say something. Adriana: has the female inside of himself as well. as well, too many people creating a lot of decks that are very commercial, in my opinion. Amelie: I'm not that good. Luigi: Yeah, no. Possibly. To that point and to many points that were mentioned just now, I wanted to add a couple of pearls, ⁓ I can call them that humbly. And guys tell me what you think as well. you, Adriana, up ⁓ the conversation the many other decks present in the world, etc. Has anybody come across the transparent tarot deck? ⁓ Lynn: Yes, I've seen it online and I'm so interested and obviously because it's so different, I wanted it. I do not own it yet, but it's a very different way of reading. yeah, that'd be really cool. Amelie: Yes. Luigi: Do not own it. Amelie: It's been in my wishlist forever. Luigi: Yeah, and I don't own it either, it was just making me think about that's a really ⁓ Not to take away from any creator of out there, I'm sure that your decks are all beautiful and fantastic and amazing, but I'm bringing ⁓ in conversation, the Transparent Tower deck, because in there, ⁓ the the wickedly talented Carding, ⁓ she created these transparent where the image is like... Lynn: Hmm. Thank Luigi: get combined with one another and depending on what comes out in a reading you can get millions if not billions of different messages that are being channeled. I think that's a very unique deck out there that I'm aware of at least I'm sure there are more but I thought it was worth mentioning because I don't know how many of you like you said you all came across it none of us probably know own it yet but that's a really unique spin to the tarot formula I suppose. Lynn: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Amelie: Yeah, it's a very, it's also I think because nowadays you can make cards see-through. Back in the day, you know, you had the print on paper, but now you can actually make them see-through. So it's a really cool way of like, ⁓ a different dimension almost. ⁓ it made me think of another deck that I've seen. I don't now who made it, but someone made like Luigi: That's a good point. Lynn: Yeah, you can do it. Luigi: Yeah! Amelie: basically the Smith deck but they made it bigger so it's more square and they filled in the scenes around it, which I find really interesting that you, cause you can see like the scene, but then, you know, they kind of filled in, expanded the actual view so you can see more of like things that going on around. And I find that really interesting ⁓ Maybe not so much from like, I guess it helps because you get a different kind of scene when you're reading it. Luigi: ⁓ yeah! Lynn: so cool, yeah. Luigi: EXPAND Lynn: Mm-hmm. Amelie: I just thought it was like a really fun thing to do just to kind of like go and expand that. yeah. Nope, I was done. Luigi: Then you also... go on, go on. Okay, now I was gonna say I think it might be possible to do it with the Thoth at least with the majors But in this Smith you also get the beautiful versions of the after and the before Tarot. Have you got have you have you guys come across those? Lynn: Mm-hmm. Yes, I own them or versions of them. I think they're probably not the originals, but I have them. no, mean, yeah, but I have them. It's quite funny. It's like with the after, think the fool is like falling down the stoop and stuff. It's really cool to have them lined up next to each other and see what somebody imagined happens in the five of cups where you normally have Luigi: No no no no no they're not Ha Yeah. Lynn: No, in the four, I think it's the four of cups. So where you have the, what if I'm not, but we have like the man standing next to the river. It's a five, right? When he's like all that kind of depressed. Yeah. So the five of cups, he's like standing depressed at the river. And I think in the before there was, I think it's the before where somebody is like drowning in the river and passing him by. And he was like, ⁓ and then in the now he's basically all depressed because I guess he didn't help him. And then in the after, I don't remember what it was, but it's a... HEAL: Yes. Luigi: Yeah, the five of cups. Amelie: That's five, yeah. Lynn: Yeah, it's an interesting... Yeah, I should probably grab them. We will, I mean, we wanted to do episodes where we ⁓ different decks, actually. So that would be a good thing for one of those to just go through the after before, because I have them so I ⁓ visually show you and then we can talk about them. That would be fun. ⁓ so yeah, great. We both let's do that. Amelie: That's so funny, I've never seen that one. Luigi: Now look into it. Amelie: ⁓ that's so funny. Luigi: Yeah, I got them too. Let's make a mental note. ⁓ Amelie: Yeah, that would be really cool. Luigi: and there was something all gone. No, no, no, gone. Lynn: But on the note of like, ⁓ yeah, no, it's just because we're talking different decks that have like a different spin. To I find that the Wild Unknown Tarot, yeah, is also one that has a very different energy to it. And I don't read with it very often, or I have not read with it very often. But like the first reading I did, it just, it did something to my brain. Like I felt it so differently. Luigi: ⁓ yes! ⁓ Lynn: and you have to intuit in a completely different way as well and I don't know what it is but there's something in those cards that is different from the others it's a it's the the wild unknown my version yeah Amelie: Yeah, I have it somewhere as well, but I just haven't used it for so long. HEAL: Jo-Amily, you have very nice cards. Lynn: Yeah, I really like it. Like I have the high priestess. That's the high priestess for example. Yeah, it's a she's a white tiger. Yeah. And I mean, the the majors are one thing because it's all based off of animals. But the the miners also, I feel there's just something ⁓ the energy of like, for example, this is the four of the ones. Luigi: I used the Oracle. HEAL: ⁓ that's beautiful. That's beautiful. Luigi: ⁓ wow! Lynn: just some way of how she uses or how they use colors and also geometry again is just doing something when you have it all like laid out in like a reading it's just yeah it creates something very particular good reminder I want to go back into yes very beautiful HEAL: Yes. Just look at the organic clay. Amelie: Brilliant. I was about to say I really like her art style because it's all by hand and it's not everything is very like jaggedy and very natural and very organic and it just ties everything together I really like that. Lynn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm. It's very shamanic, people feel like, I've heard it's very shamanic. HEAL: Amelie had very interesting takes as well, isn't it, Amelie? You have a few. I remember you told me a few that they were ⁓ quirky. Amelie: Which ones of them? You know what? can, I have, ⁓ have quite a few. I'm very like, I'm not like a tarot, I'm not a tarot collector as in like I collect loads of stuff. But if there's something that I'm really into, I get And sometimes if it's out of print, I try to find it, which is really bad. don't do this, it's a disclaimer because it can get really expensive and frustrating if you can't find it. But it's like I get these, know, like I get really into something. But because we're talking about ⁓ Thoth and the Smith deck, personally ⁓ like, I even have it here, I really like the ⁓ and Earth deck it's, I'm quite sure it's still in print and it's not like super expensive one. Lynn: Yes. Amelie: But the reason why I like it is because it has the kind of depiction like the Smith Deck would have, but also it's kind of based on the Thoth Deck. And I just like, I mean, it's, I guess it's pretty dark as such, but the actual art style, well, the art style is not the same at the Smith Deck, but the depictions are kind of like the same thing, you know. HEAL: Wow. Wow. Lynn: ⁓ okay. Luigi: Fusion Amelie: You've got basically the same kind of depictions, but underneath here, you also have the symbols you would have on the Thoth deck. So it kind of like combines of them in one deck, which I really like because that's something that you don't get in them. I guess you do get the ⁓ different like in the Empress, for example, I guess you get few symbols. HEAL: Mm. Lynn: Mm. Mm. Amelie: But here you really get like all of them just at the bottom. So I really like this deck and it feels a little bit pagan and a little bit medieval somehow. And I like it and it's dark and I really like the colour scheme. But I'm sure that it could be a bit dark for a lot of people. But that's something I like. To me that's like a twofer for me. Lynn: which she grew. HEAL: Okay. Lynn: Luigi, you wanted to say something. Amelie: combined them together. Luigi: There's more wood that I wanted to throw into the fire, if that's okay. ⁓ one, I think is gonna go into a whole rabbit hole that we don't have to go to, but I think it's worth mentioning. So I'll start with the other one instead. ⁓ I think based on our conversations and based on what we know of the history of the decks and our experiences with the decks, decks, ⁓ me please, deities of grammar and speech. Lynn: Yes, go ahead, go ahead. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. HEAL: You Luigi: One thing that I really appreciate, I suppose, about the Thoth and this is going into the realm of speculation, so this is purely speculation ⁓ and a bit of entertainment on my end and hopefully on the end of everybody who listens, but, ⁓ you know, there is theory, there is this rumor that although it's a very inclusive, ⁓ user-friendly deck, the Smith deck, ⁓ There were certain choices that intentionally aimed at hiding the meanings, the deeper esoteric secrets, intentional. And again, this is us speculating about it. Whether what I appreciate about the Thoth Deck, and Amelie, I think you brought this up at some point during your introduction of your relationship with the Thoth Deck and your history with the Thoth Deck. Crowley simply said, them all have the secrets, let them all have the magic and the power and the knowledge. And that's definitely something that I celebrate about the Thoth deck Because there is this whole, what's the lesson, wisdom, teaching, tradition, should the wisdom, should the knowledge go to everyone or should it not? And then ⁓ by not giving to everyone, you create gatekeeping. and exclusivity versus inclusivity. then there is also the question the matter of are people to receive so and so and so and who is it that decides when are they ready and when they're not. But that was just bringing it up. The agency of the Thoth Lynn: Yeah. Yeah, but I feel, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel like the way that I experience people who are reading Tarot, there's this thing with like, if people are not ready for the Thoth, they're not gonna be able to tap into it. Like a lot of witches and others that I know from here, none of them, I know none of them use the Thoth. They're like, yeah, I've used it once, but it's not for me, you know? And I'm like, you know, I'm like, yeah. I get it, get why. But it's, you know, it's like, yeah. speaking of the clandestine kind of symbols, because I ⁓ the ten of swords earlier and there is, ⁓ don't remember exactly what it, you can probably help me out, ⁓ there's this hand gesture that we presume, man who's lying stabbed on the ground is doing. ⁓ And is also, this is something that would most of wouldn't like, ⁓ no. Luigi: Take note. HEAL: Thank Lynn: or even sewn in on that because it's just something that you either know you don't know and see eye off the top of my head for God but it means something like that it's not the end but there's like some I don't remember what the word was do you remember Lucy like it's like of the chest yeah yeah Luigi: Yeah, I don't remember the name of the ⁓ sign because it's something that they use in Hebrew rituals and celebrations and you know, like ⁓ a Hebrew sign. Well, when I say Hebrew, like it's a Jewish, it's something used in the Jewish tradition. The that, like the I suppose, ⁓ the rabbis, use it their ceremonies. Lynn: Mm. Mm. Luigi: I think that having it in the Ten of Swords connects it to one, the Hierophant, and two, to the power of the sun. Because you will see that the Hierophant uses the same hand gesture. And I forget the name of the gesture, because it's a Hebrew name. ⁓ look it up in a sec. But basically, it represents the union between the spiritual realm and the earthly realm. ⁓ And guess underlying... Lynn: Mm. Right. Luigi: wisdom and truth, let's use the word truth of the tarot, is to teach us or to allow us to connect the realms, isn't it? Like we, as the physical vessels, we use the deck and we channel the knowledge and the power and the intuition of the divine realm. So you can say that a tarot reader performing a reading is one of the many beautiful images of balance and equilibrium between the macro and the macrocosm. Lynn: Hmm. How we ⁓ bring some, to maybe it up a little bit, bring up some examples of cards that are very distinctly different, or maybe our favorites or whichever, ⁓ that distinctly between the Thoth and the Smith deck just talk a little bit about those. ⁓ So maybe, yeah, we'll get cards, I guess. Amelie, you have some favorites? ⁓ yeah. Amelie: Which are we choosing? Which ones are we choosing? favourites that would be very different. I mean, we do, the that we spoke about was Lust and Strength. I don't know if you want to go into that. ⁓ HEAL: Yes, yes. Lynn: Yes. I mean, we can all discuss it because, but we can start with that. We'll all discuss it. Because the ⁓ that's easiest. I mean, yeah, yeah. ⁓ I them right in front of me as well. So I got them double up just different versions, you know, of like the different versions of the same. I mean, thing. ⁓ I hope it's art. Amelie: because that's the easiest I've got them. I've got them to here if that's any help. Awesome. Yeah. I'm not sure if we have to censor them. Lynn: There's boobs. But ⁓ mean, one difference obviously is that, but it's a whole system of like ⁓ strength being the eight is strength in the Smith deck and it has the number eight while in the Thoth deck it's called lost and has the number 11 because they did a switch around a switcheroo. We have not talked about the switcheroo, but that is a big topic and we don't ⁓ have get into that. But there's a thing. where the major arcana does not follow the ⁓ in a sequence, yes. And is a point. ⁓ So the Strength card, the eight, we have famously this depiction of a woman, well, there's different interpretations. Is she fighting the lion? Is she taming the lion? Whatever she's doing, but there's a woman. Luigi: Sequence. ⁓ Lynn: in progress with a lion or a beast it seems quite peaceful in ⁓ and not as erotic as you have must say that in the last card the ⁓ I mean here you ⁓ the Babylonian you have the ⁓ beast with the many HEAL: Okay. Lynn: And ⁓ my god, there's so much symbolism in this whole card. I can't even get into it, right? But there's ⁓ much going on in this card. obviously it's outrageously ⁓ or ⁓ anyway. Crowley, yes. But it's the woman who has all the power, know, like in the devil card where it's, you know, I have a very phallic symbolism. Luigi: Very Crowley. HEAL: Mm-hmm. Lynn: But here's this yes, the yes man, but the yes woman, like she is just doing whatever she wants. She's writing life. She's writing, you know, she is the source of all life, sacred and unsacred at the same time. So there's a there's a lot of ⁓ I like a lot of difference. Like you don't like I feel like this one is very, very sweet and tame in comparison. And this one is basically telling you to embrace yourself and be the woman or person that you're meant to be, like naked and unashamed basically, not necessarily literally, but being like naked and unashamed being who you are, having your power, embracing So there's a lot to unpack, but ⁓ you probably also opinions about those too. Luigi: Well, I think by showing them and by also talking about the change that we don't necessarily need to touch into much detail now, ⁓ think that's something that we forgot to mention in all of the discussions that we had. ⁓ of the core differences between this myth and the Thoth, like the Thoth will have a heavy influence which will be Thelima, isn't it? Lynn: Yes, right. Of course Crowley's religion or faith or system, if you will, of course. ⁓ entire, yeah, is in the entire deck, of course. The symbolism his religion. Luigi: An additional layer of beauty for the top is definitely the Philemic Flare. Lynn: Yes, so you have a lot of deities for example, the Thalymic deities that are slightly off of the Egyptian deities. For like Nuit, ⁓ Horus, there's bunch of them. Crowley especially very fond of Nuit. Yeah, ⁓ beautiful. Yeah, was very fond of Nuit, the goddess of night. And ⁓ so she stars in a few the... ⁓ Luigi: Nuit adeit rahur quit. Lynn: cards, most famously maybe in the star card, if I can find it. can show it. ⁓ Luigi: And the first dictate, not, is that, what's the word? ⁓ know, somebody dictate a chapter. The first narrator of the first chapter of the Book of the Law as well. Lynn: mm-hmm yeah something you channel there she is new it she's just wonderful Luigi: She does resemble, I'm not entirely insinuating that they are the same, but she does resemble physically and aesthetically I suppose, to an extent, the Scarlet Woman from the last card. You know, like in the hair, the bodily figure. Lynn: Yeah, ⁓ Luigi: To an extent, to an extent. Lynn: I mean you have the, I mean there's actually some parallels in this I mean is there the posture like you said they both have like in a sense grails you know so they're holding grails or cups Luigi: Yeah, they hold the cup. Amelie: I'm trying to find the universe card as well because I find that is also has also similarities but I wanted to try it. HEAL: For me, is a lot of differences. Is the lovers ones? It changed a lot, you know? Okay, the lovers, I think this, in this one is more a Christian based, you know, mythology that is Adam and Eve and is the, yes, and the serpent and the angel. So it is like the relationship between, Lynn: Yes. ⁓ yes, you can talk about the lovers if you'd like. In the Smith stack, yes. ⁓ Mm. HEAL: the first scene, you know, like the falling from paradise and so on. So obviously if we have like a Christian base that we all have, like a Catholic one, the lovers here is more like taboo, you know, it's more in pain, you know. But with Thoth card first of all, they are not naked, ⁓ like a king and queen, you know. in thought one that is very related to ⁓ Hermetica and other cultures that are not based in Christianity. So, or Egyptian, or ⁓ he used a lot of symbolism from other ⁓ mythologies ⁓ make it the meaning and the sense a bit think there are more sensuality and more eroticism and more sexual liberation in tall scars than in the other. Lynn: mean, have the, ⁓ found the other star card just to, the viewers of our show rather than the listeners. So was like very different energy I feel between Nuit, ⁓ which the thought one with all the ⁓ purples the blues and her just also being like one with universe basically. And then you have the... HEAL: Thank you. Lynn: star card which also has a lot of symbolism in this card but it's a different it's a different feel a different vibe you're getting from them yeah Luigi: intriguing and they're both facing the same direction i never noticed them by having them ⁓ you know next to each other the face yeah cheers yeah Lynn: Well, technically, technically the new age, she's facing upwards and to this side and she's facing downwards. So that kind of in a diagonal opposing, but they're there. The knees are facing the side, like the bodies are facing the same direction. I just I like also that how new it is looking up into the cup that she's emptying and then the star lady is looking down into the cup that she's emptying into the pool. So they're kind of it's like they're. HEAL: Yes. Yeah. Luigi: Yeah, intriguing. Lynn: on different aspects of journey ⁓ or lives. ⁓ HEAL: But we see thought is based a lot on the hermetic laws, know, so as is above, is below and so on, and all the vibration laws and so on, all the seven laws that they have in Hermetica, that obviously it will have, yeah, it will have, it will have a different vision and a different, you know, always like presenting. Amelie: Yeah. Lynn: Hmm. Mm. Amelie: It's called a Thoth Deck Lynn: Yes, it's called the thought stick, yes. Why? HEAL: opposites together. The other one is, yes, I think it's ruling between Hebrew Catholicism, you know, it's more like Christian-oriented. ⁓ Lynn: Mm. Yes, but let's just mention that. Why is called the Thoth Deck Because we talked about why the RWS called RWS because a producer know, and ⁓ or editor, publisher. There we go. Publisher and publisher men and women or the mind and the hand who created it, I guess. ⁓ And while Thoth Deck Yeah, it's not called Crowey. Amelie: actually no there's actually no name to R Lynn: Yeah, yeah, it's just that, it's the Rider-Waite-Smith. And then you have the, yeah, and the Thoth deck, it's just, it's not called the Crowley-Harris deck, it's the Thoth deck. Amelie: I actually didn't even think about this before. Like actually, doesn't have a name. Lynn: Yeah, it uses names of others, yeah. Luigi: Yeah, yeah, it's just the names of the creators. ⁓ Well, obviously we can talk about what we know of Thoth Egyptian deity of ceremonial magic, the giver of the alphabet or scriptures at least, ⁓ the knowledge and the, I if it's okay to say that, like the Egyptian version of Hermes or the version of ⁓ Mercury. Lynn: Mm. Amelie: Knowledge, right? HEAL: Yes. Yes. Lynn: Mm. Mm. Luigi: Also, the name Thoth starting with T, which think something in the mix, in the formula, when you consider the famous book released by the Golden Dawn, book T, know, and tarot starting with the letter T, and obviously day when we explore it, the letter T having several, several layers of meanings. Lynn: Right. Yes. Yes. Luigi: that we can explore in the future. Lynn: ⁓ yeah, there's a lot of tea. Tea? Yeah, it's brewsome. There's a lot of tea postures. Yes, yes. All right. HEAL: Let's have a... Amelie: Mmm, tea I say. HEAL: Let's get a cup of tea. Okay. Luigi: Spill the tea, spill the tea! Amelie: Another, like I have two cards that I find very different. We don't have to go like really deep into them, but I think it's like worth mentioning ⁓ the Temperance card and the Art card because they're like completely different as well. As in like completely different. Lynn: Mm. HEAL: Yes. Yes. Yes. Lynn: Who else? Yes. HEAL: Yeah. Lynn: posture of the main person, but yes, everything else is just, yeah. Amelie: Absolutely. And the Art card is one of my favorite cards as well. I don't know. Is there a reason or not? I don't know if there's a specific reason, but I'm just extremely drawn to it. And there's also like these little spider webs on there in the background, which I really like. And also I find... Lynn: art or temperance. Hmm. I mean it's the alchemist's card, know, as an alchemist, I would say you're kind of an alchemist yourself using elements to create things, know, mean a lot of artists are in there, you know, in a sense. So that would make sense, the creations, yes. Amelie: It is. Luigi: your beautiful creations. Amelie: My creations, it's like when you get lost in the making, in the actual creation, I that's what the art card kind of reminds me of, is like when you're creating something and you're in the middle of it, it's almost like the beginning and the end, but it's like that in between where you get lost and you just like create, it's a very interesting feeling or like not... Lynn: Hmm. Amelie: You can't, I can't describe it with words. Yeah. Lynn: quite sacred. Yeah, it's quite sacred. I've just had this earlier today because I was finishing up a story that I've written and that is one of the things where I'm... Yeah, thank you. I finished the revision steps when I was ready. But I was reading, I was revising it and I was just... was like, this is not... It's not me. Like, it's not me. It's not me who created this. It came through me, maybe. but was not me and like going and revising it I was like going through all the sensation emotions through everything and I'm like like what is this thing it's not I didn't do I didn't make it somebody else I mean you know maybe somebody else did but but so crazy yes it just flows and it comes and it goes but yeah Amelie: amazing when you have that feeling because ⁓ look at something that When you look back at something that you've done, it also like, ⁓ did I create it? Because a lot of things you think like, when you look at things that other people did, you're like, ⁓ this is beautiful. How did they create it? But you can get, ⁓ can detach from that because it's something that someone else created and you're like, ⁓ they must be super talented. ⁓ when that happens to you and you create something and you look at it and you're like, wow, ⁓ Lynn: Mm. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Yes. Amelie: This is amazing, but hold on, I created it. Lynn: Yeah, what happened? Yes, like yeah, yeah, yeah, I've had the same thing. I had the same feeling and going walking afterwards and just going through it. I'm like, what like I was just like, what happened? And I also thought this thing that other artists when you're like, ⁓ my God, you made such amazing thing. And then they're like more like, well, you know, I'm just using a brush and I'm just making some strokes. And this thing came out. But then you actually have this feeling. It's just like, I don't know what happened. ⁓ just happened. ⁓ explain it. ⁓ Amelie: Yeah, I don't think that artists should have to explain how they did it. it doesn't have to be exactly. You just like dive into the rabbit hole and then you come up. Luigi: Huzzah! Lynn: Hassa. No, he's tapping into something. HEAL: ⁓ I don't have a question. Luigi: I know, but if it- Lynn: and you're just tapping into something. HEAL: I have a question, What is the difference? Because in the traditional one is called pages, you know, but in salt they get upgraded to princess or princesses, you know. So what is the difference between obviously in knowing monarchy style, but I think the force change Luigi: Ruffles. HEAL: when it's a print, when it's a page, isn't it? Amelie: I assume pages are the princesses, not the prince- HEAL: Nobody thought he's Prince. Luigi: princesses. So like the pages of the Smith Deck... No, for the pages it's the princesses of the Thoth HEAL: Yes. But what they say here is Prince of Wands. It's not the same that this one. Lynn: ⁓ And the Prince-King-Knight thing is against a whole different conversation. Luigi: of No, no, no, it's not. for the prince, it would be... Well, this is another topic for another episode, So in the way that we've been taught through Tarot Mysticism Academy, the princes of the Thoth will be the equivalent of the kings of the Smith. HEAL: Yes. Amelie: That is another topic. Lynn: Yes, that is a topic. HEAL: because in thought we have princesses and princess. of the king. Yes, that's what by Confucian. Yes, the princess is king and the princesses are the pages. Okay. Luigi: Allegedly. Well, definitely, princesses are the pages. The matter of the princes and the kings, we can discuss it when we feel brave enough and we had a coffee. Amelie: Yes. Lynn: Yes. Amelie: I think we should probably do whole episode of just the Thoth deck and maybe a whole episode of just the RWS at some point because there's just so to talk about and that would be really cool too. Lynn: Hmm. Yes. Yeah. HEAL: Okay, so in total there is no king. Luigi: Yeah. Lynn: Absolutely. Luigi: Well, there is, but not by title. The King is the Prince, they don't give it the title of the King. But if you... Fun fact all of us, including the people that are listening, if you were to go and read about ⁓ Book T, released by the Golden Dawn themselves, they would describe ⁓ knights ⁓ under title of which creates a hell of a lot of confusion. And again, we can discuss it in the future. yeah, Crowley and Frieda, they did not include the ⁓ title of kings to any of their core cards. For good reasons, I guess. Lynn: Alright, cool. Thanks. To round it up or to go... Yeah, you had a question, Luigi. No. Luigi: No question, but I just wanted to bring you to your attention just one little reflection that I hope that I'm sure you guys will be appreciative of. Hopefully the people listening and tuning, they will indulge us. You know when we were talking about our resonance with a particular deck, whether was Thoth or Smith, ⁓ I noticed something that I find very beautiful and equally very uncanny. Lynn: Mm-hmm. Luigi: So we have, as you may, people may know, and obviously as we know, the initial of our names are A, L, A, isn't it? And ⁓ this beautiful image again of equilibrium and balance and harmony. ⁓ each ⁓ is attached to a Thoth and a Smith, and each ⁓ A is attached to a Thoth and a Smith. And additionally, I'm not gonna... Lynn: you True. Luigi: We're not gonna open this right now, but to give everybody a sniff ⁓ this beautiful notion. Like, if we even look at our letters and we take them in consideration to the tarot, there is a beautiful relationship between the letter L and the letter A. Again, hopefully you know what I'm hinting at, ⁓ we can discuss that in the future. ⁓ I couldn't... Lynn: Mm. Mm. Lovely observation, Luigi. Yeah. Luigi: I know I couldn't help myself when I saw it I was like what's going on here because we got LALA but also we got Smith - Smith - Thoth ⁓ Smith - Thoth ⁓ pronunciation. Lynn: Right. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, true, true, true. That is great. Yeah, it's amazing. Great observation. All right. Well, thank you so much. There was there was a lot again for one episode. And as usual, we we have this little tradition. Yes, we have this little tradition that we pull a carton secret in the beginning of the episode. And this time the owner went to Adriana so she will now reveal the card to us and then in plenum all four of us will discuss the card a little bit. So let's see what was today's card Adriana? HEAL: Yeah. Yes. Okay, well, ⁓ yes, well, I drew from the Smith card and it's the four of cups. ⁓ I took it out for the third one, you know. So as you see, there is a lot of difference in between. ⁓ car is always a bit emblematic because Lynn: Mm-hmm. the four of Cups yes. okay. HEAL: it can have different connotations. ⁓ card, the photo of Caps, is related to the high priestess and to cancer. So it's the moon ⁓ the chariot that are related to this card. And so it is like self-contained, it's a lot of water, a lot of emotions. And I think it's what has happened today in our discussion. because it's always like, you can interpret it like he's so self-contained that doesn't need any other thing that whatever they brought to them, to this person here, to this young man here, he doesn't really need, you know, but as well you can interpret it like this person is unsatisfied, stagnant. and unable to receive the gift from the universe. it depends how you interpret the position of this individual, the personality, or if are reading to someone, if there are other cards ⁓ alongside, you determine exactly ⁓ the of the both messages. But as well as you have the moon and the high priestess is very restrictive, very passive, and cancer and in the chariot. is something that's protecting. So it's like an invitation to go deep inside of yourself, you know, despite of the distractions that the ⁓ brings to you, the outside of you, you have to have to take in consideration your compass and your inner truth. However, when you the Thoth card, the photo cards is called luxury. So luxury in this context is probably giving yourself the luxury to choose whatever you want to be. So it opens up another dimension, another sense, another source of interpretation with the salt card, because there is not a human element here. card doesn't limit you ⁓ a character. that you have to identify what is inside of his heart or what is in his mind. Here is giving you just luxury and it's like choice, like the abundance, like is emanating, it's like bringing all this energy and ⁓ and all this luxurious abundance that you can give yourself the choice to, you know. So related to the discussion we have today, each one who has, we're four, so four cups, you know, we have the luxury to choose which deck we like the most. Lynn: true. Yeah. Yeah. HEAL: Yeah, no, maybe we don't want any of them, you know. So it's beautiful to see both approaches, what interpretation they can give you, you know. ⁓ is go towards the individual, you know, the other one is to what is in offer right there. ⁓ yes, I think that ⁓ complement each other, but equally it ⁓ the... Amelie: and sometimes we sit under the tree and we don't know which one to choose. Lynn: Mmm, yeah. HEAL: whatever as you want to feel it, it represents all the individual if it has, you know, it's self-contained, if it's too much water, so too much emotions in there, that it has to deal with that, or it simply go towards those that it's the luxurious, the luxury of choice or the luxury to have plentiness. So it's two different messages from two different decks. I don't want to. Lynn: Yeah, and mean the Smith deck where you see like it's a man sitting under a tree with like three cups in front of him and he's kind of in this crossed arm crossed legs position while a fourth cup is being presented to him by a godly hand, the cloud hand as we have it often in Smith deck. ⁓ I'm saying the cloud hand. While ⁓ in the deck ⁓ you have ⁓ more brighter than these four. HEAL: Yeah. Yes. Lynn: these four cups that are just ⁓ brimming the water, the flow of the water. And the thing is... I mean, we have the number four, right? So the four is like one of the most stable number in the tarot. It brings stability, but at the same time, what stability does, it also brings you a sort of a stagnancy. It's very square. So it's always like this idea is stagnant or is stability something that right now is something that is good for you? Do you need a stability? I mean, if you come from a place where you are like high emotions and everything is just raw, then this card is probably, you know, it would be HEAL: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Lynn: probably like a breather for you like I'm almost meditative or you can just you know if you're having troubles deciding or if you're just having ⁓ just been ⁓ under the tree for too long you know it's maybe telling you to ⁓ up and do something instead of just like sitting there like HEAL: Move on. Yeah. or I will listen invitation, it's invitation. Lynn: So there's a very different... Yeah, but to all of the cars there are different approaches to it and none of them are neither light or shadow. HEAL: is as well an invitation if there is, if you are content that there is too much choice, you can take the time and stay there, you know. So again, you have different ways how to see it, have different ways how to feel it, because if we project what is going on right now in the world, probably it's better to be underneath of the tree and be self-contained on yourself and your soul with your own emotions. yourself, that being distracted by all the things that are presented to you, you know, in the news or social media whatever. So ⁓ probably it's invitation as well to recognize that what you feel, what you think is as valuable as you can take all the time of the world, you know, to be self-contained and do not it. So again, it's another interpretation that you can use it for this card. Lynn: What are your thoughts on the four of Amelie: think we spoke about most of it all. I was just thinking about this whole luxury aspect of like, bit putting it onto the Smith deck. I'm like, actually it's kind of luxury because he gets this cup ⁓ to him, so it is luxury, right? And then I'm like, my is mentally insane ⁓ and but I'm like, what if this is like, this is like in ⁓ heaven, Where this Lynn: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Hmm. You Amelie: where this cup is coming from here. So you're here. Yeah, really? Lynn: I just thinking that, yeah. That fairy tale where it's just like, where it's just the fairy tale or like this tale where you're just like in heaven or whatever and then all like the grilled chicken just flying around and you're not going right in your mouth and ambrosia everywhere and like this, there's like this, I think it's a fairy tale, I don't remember, but there's like, from my childhood, I remember there was story where it's just like you were in heaven and it's like really just these chicken legs coming and being like, Amelie: No, will be... ⁓ yeah. Lynn: You know, you can just eat them cups of like wine and ⁓ know, it's like so it's it's that yes, literally being brought to you ⁓ cup of wine. ⁓ Amelie: I just thinking like, as in, cause I had them next to each other like this and I thought like, this where the water is kept, that's like the luxurious, you know, whatever, water, whatever, but this is where this cloud comes from. So it was here, got some water and then... Yeah, exactly. Lynn: Hmm It just went like a little drone. Transport drone. Yeah. thoughts on your part, Luigi Luigi: fourth cup in Smith contains the four capsules of the Thoth HEAL: Mmm, yeah, yes. So what do you think, Luigi Amelie: Yeah. Yeah! HEAL: the follow up. Luigi: No, I think you covered most of it. think I am overly partial. ⁓ that a good way to say it? Basically, I personally love the photocaps being a highly emotional and highly watery person. I that card, you know, because it's just water is galore. And I can appreciate the awareness that one has to take into account when experiencing the energy of the four of cups because... one of the flaws that I as a person possess, but any person that belongs to the element of water would be an element of idleness, I suppose. ⁓ Maybe even indolence if we want to go there, but we don't have to. ⁓ But yeah, I personally, definitely, exactly, but ⁓ partially You know, even when you think about the number of the card that comes the ⁓ title on, but that's another day. Lynn: Mm. That's a different card though. In the toss. ⁓ Yeah. Luigi: No, I love it. I think whenever I see it, I feel reassured. considering ⁓ of shadow and light, ⁓ if ever the card comes across... ⁓ that's something that I need to interrogate, because I almost gave it a definite feeling or definite value. whenever it comes, I feel reassured without questioning anything. Maybe I should invite some room for questions. But yeah. For the moment, my physical and spiritual experience of the 4o Caps has been a relatively blissful one, to say the least. Lynn: mean that's the thing about interpreting cards like as you as you get ⁓ you unlock your own ⁓ basically or your own way of interpreting them it's I mean it talks through you and through your own language ⁓ so one card means a specific thing for you then it's not always wrong sometimes it might you know but you know it's it's like very likely that you know however the system works but if you if you see the four of cups like that then if you read for a client, then it's also because the client is supposed to hear what you're interpreting with the card. Unless suddenly you get a different inspiration, you know, I mean, it happens because I have my particular cards that have a very personal connection to and and they mean something for me that is not necessarily traditional. And sometimes that works in a reading for another person. This comes up first. And then sometimes not. Sometimes I go in the other direction, you know, so I feel it's just it's just the symbols that HEAL: Hmm. Luigi: Yeah, that's a good point. Lynn: the higher self or consciousness or whatever it is that is actually working through us there, gives ⁓ a language that works through us and through the cards. ⁓ those are the words to ⁓ ⁓ HEAL: But it is a very emotional card. It's a very emotional card anyway. know, so what we do with our emotions or how confident are we dealing with emotions if we're determining exactly how we feel about it. So yes, I think it's a beautiful open card that gives you a lot to ponder and reflect about it. Luigi: Yeah. Amelie: Yes. Lynn: Yeah, I mean, it's a cop. It's cops, right? So, Luigi: Yeah. Lynn: Absolutely. Hmm. Amelie: Yeah, I think it's a good card to end this episode on. HEAL: Yeah. Lynn: It's a good catch to end the episode. Yes. Well, thank you so much for tuning in and ⁓ listening or watching and you in the next rabbit hole. ⁓ ⁓ Luigi: Yeah. HEAL: Bye. Luigi: See you in the next rabbit hole! Amelie: Bye!