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The Zionist Movement in Britain: David Miller and Vanessa Beeley · UK Column Radio

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Hello one, Welcome to the UK column. I'm my host Mike Rubinson joining
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me today. I have Vanessa Billy from Damascus and David Miller. David welcome,
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and Vanessa welcome to the program. We're going to get started off with
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talking about Israel and Zionism and so on. So David, first question on
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my lips at the moment is what is the Zionist movement and what is the
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difference between the Zionist movement and the Zionist lobby. Well, I mean,
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I think that there's been a lot of misunderstanding about what people usually call the
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Israel Lobby and the broader Zionist movement, which is what I tend to buy
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on about quite a lot. And I think it's really very important for us
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to understand what the differences between the Israel Lobby and the Zionist movements. Now,
1:11
the Israel Lobby, you know, easily defined, is all of those
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groups in Western countries in the US, UK, France, or Germany wherever
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else who are engaged in attempting to influence policy, either domestic policy or foreign
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policy in the interests of Zionism or more specifically the regime in occupied partside the
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Zionist regime. So that's the organizations which might be in the political parties like
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for example, Conservative Friends of Israel or Labor Friends of Israel in the UK.
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Or they might be think tags like the new Tanks that there are Key
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Policy Exchange, Henry Jackson Society, etc. Or they might be other kinds
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of lobby and influenced groups like BIKOP for example Britain Israel Communications and Research Center,
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which is there to influence the media in favor of Prosionist and narratives and
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talking points. Now, all these organizations, one can say, are the
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Israel lobby. And we can also note other organizations like the Board of Deputies
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or the Jewish Leadership Council which are all pro Israel organizations or umbrellas. And
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everyone really would admit that those are organizations which are part of a lobby to
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pursue Zionist ideas. But when you talk about then I should say, of
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course, that that is the way in which the Israel lobby is conceptualized by
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almost Everybody's talked about it in the academic literature, in particular, most of
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obviously Meuscheimer and Walton their path breaking book called the Israel Lobby in two thousand
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and five or six or whatever it was, And that's the kind of definition
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that he use. In the US, they have similar kinds of organizations.
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For example, they think tanks like the Foundation for Defensive Democracy or WINNEP or
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a whole range of others, or the ADL, the Anti Defamation League and
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others. Right, But there's something more too, what I would call the
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Zionist movement than just those organizations. And if you look at micham or Walt's
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book, for example, you find that the main Zionist organizations in the US
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are not either not in the index or only covered fleetingly. And I would
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I would try to explain that by giving you an indication of what the Zionist
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movement is and how that relates to the lobby. So the Zionist movement is,
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of course famously a movement set up at the end of the nineteenth century,
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whether or not through an organization called the Zionist Organization, and they had
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big international conferences in Switzerland and in the UK and another place indeed in America
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as well. It much later, and that's that organization became later on in
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the middle part of the last century. The World Zionist Organization. So it's
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telling you something significantly. It's not just that they was a Zionist organization,
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it's that it's now saying that it's a world Zionist organization. Of course,
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they don't have members in every country in the world. They have members in
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roughly forty five countries. But we can come back to that more in more
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detailed later. And associated with the the Zionist movement, the aim of which
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was to set up a Jewish state in the historic territory of Mandate Palestine.
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We're a series of other organizations. So the Zionist Organization is is at the
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top of the world Zionist organization, and it has a number of other organizations
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which are there to help to construct the Zionist settler project. So, for
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example, they have the Jewish National Fund, which is there too to expropriate
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steal by land in Palestine for Jews to settle on at all the Jews.
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And then of course there's the Jewish Agency, which is a mechanism to try
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and secure Jews from outside Palestine and move them to settle to become settler colonists
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in Palestine. And then there of course is not the third organization which makes
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up the four organizations which are at the head of the Zionist movement, the
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Karen Hazod, which was devoted to providing the money for doing all those tasks.
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There's four organizations which are at the peak of the Zionist organization, a
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World Zionist Organization and the Zionist Movement. And they then have affiliate organizations in
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every country in which the Zionist movement is organized. So in order for it
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to be a Jewish state, they created this thing called the movement. They
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created the Jewish state, and then they decided, well, what should we
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do? Should we should we dissolve the Zionist movement or shall we keep it
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going? And of course what they just i to do, as everybody knows,
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but nobody says, is that they decided to keep it going. And
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all of these organizations have been mentioning still exist. In fact, the headquarters
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of these organizations, the four organizations I mentioned are all in the same building
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in King David Street in Jerusalem, which they call National Institution's House, indicating
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that these are the national institutions of the so called State of Israel. And
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of course they have the branches everywhere else. In the UK, there is
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a Jewish National Fund UK which is the you know, the branch, the
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UK branch of the Global Jewish National Fund headquartered in Jerusalem. There is the
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Office for the Jewish Agency. There is an organization called the United Jewish Israel
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Appeal, which is the fund raising organization which is the equivalent, which is
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the UK branch of the Karen Hazard. And of course there is a Zionist
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Federation which is the formal UK affiliate of the World Zionist Organization, and it
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has amongst its members some forty other formally Zionist organizations. Now that all of
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that will give you I tried to be short with my description of it.
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All of that it's formal Zionist movement, which all of which is are formally
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linked to the World Zionist Organization by membership. Now if you look at me,
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Shannon and Walls, but none of that's in there, it simply doesn't
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appear. Now why is that important? Well, it's important because they they
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these parts of the Zionist movement which are of course ally with them, work
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directly with the so called Israel Lobby, are also engaged in pursuing other functions.
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Now I've already mentioned what those functions are, stealing the Palestine land,
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settling people on that land, providing the money to do it. But they,
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but they, but it's part of that. They have to do a
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range of other things in the countries outside Palestine where they operate. And amongst
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the things that they have to do is that they have to radicalize Jewish children
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into believing that they have what they call a birthright to live on stone land
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in Palestine. So that's why they have a whole range of institutions to do
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that. They have nurseries, yes, nurseries that are Zionists schools in the
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UK that Jewish schools, many of them openly identify as being zions schools.
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Truly incredible, should be illegal and it doesn't happen for any other religion,
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but that's the truth. And then they have a whole range of youth groups.
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They have left wing ZIONUS youth groups and right wing ZIONUS youth groups and
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religious ZIONUS youth groups, and these are there to again to indoctrinate Jewish kids
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into believe in that they've got a right to Palestine and that Palestinians are subhuman,
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and they of course take the kids off to their first trips, usually
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to Occupy Palestine when they're really quite young, I mean seven, eight,
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nine, ten, The kids go on free trips to occupy Palestine and the
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purposes of course to indoctrinate them. And then of course later on they have
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have Zionist student groups. The Union of Jeish Students KABAD on Campus, CAMERA
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on campus stand with US has activities on campus, a whole range of different
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Zionist student groups, again which offer free trips to occupied Palestine and which also
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provide a mechanism for students for young kids, young Jewish kids, to be
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both indoctrinated and recruited into roles in occupied Palistine either as settlers or even more
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worryingly, as members of the occupation forces. And that's that. That's provided.
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Those routes are provided by h the Union of Jewish Students, for example,
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which sounds on the surface just like a student body for for Jewish kids,
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it's not. It's a it's a it's a genocidal Zionist organization. So
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that's the other functions of the Zionist movement which are not really part of what
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you would call the Israel lobby. So there's that the Israel lobby part of
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the science movement, but the science movement is quite a lot bigger than that,
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and we have to understand that because there's such a lot more going on
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than just the question of Israel lobby. And so that's quite an incredible description
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that David has just given of an organization that the vast majority of people have
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no concept of the skill of. Yeah, and I think what's kind of
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fascinating is the description that David has given is also very focused on, as
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you said, Jewish youth that can have this kind of aura of credibility and
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acceptability. But to what extent, I guess we have to look at to
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what extent that bleeds out from those Jewish movements into sectors of UK. We're
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focusing on UK, but also US society. To what extent does that and
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then influence the thinking within UK society regarding the Palestinian issue or regarding the history
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of the Palestinian issue. Yes, David, something that you said there that
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I wanted to get some more thoughts on was you said that no other religious
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group has this kind of infrastructure with respect to schools and so on. What
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is the situation, because lots of people in the UK will be looking at
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the Islamic community in the UK and saying, well, they've got their own
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courts and they've got their own educational establishments of some kinds, but what's the
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relative skill of the infrastructure there. So I mean the difference, of course
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is that under UK law, it's perfectly permission to have faith schools, to
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have Muslim schools, Jewish schools, Hindu schools, Sikh schools, and of
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course Catholic and Protestant schools. I mean, I went to what was called
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in Scotland when I was a kid, a non denominee school, which people
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think means any kind of Christian, but no it's not. It's any kind
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of Protestant. And so you know, even though though these are sort of
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secular schools in a way, there's still religious schools in some respects. And
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but of course that's that's the law in the UK. But when we talk
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about Zionist schools, we're not talking about teaching Judaism or observance of Judaism or
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any other examples of other religions. We're talking about commitment to a specific political
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ideology. Now, if we had schools in the UK which claim to be
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sell Aphist or what habits, then we would people would have an issue with
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that. They would say, that's not right, that's not that's a particular
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kind of Islam, which is a political movement. Obviously, yes, that's
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right. But we have got zion schools now in the case of the UK
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that I think are one hundred and seventy Jewish schools in the country. I
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don't know how many of those are are vowedly Zist. It's very difficult to
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tell, but there are current number which are a vowedly scientist. A number
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have been set up by, for example, the United Synagogue, which is
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a synagogue movement which again is a vowedly Zionist. So you see the way
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in which this works that there's as a process by what, by where?
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Where? Why the idea of something being Zionis is represented as being completely normal
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and this is whatever wherevery do you thinks? And of course we know that's
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not true, but that's how they represent it. And this has been allowed
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in our society to flourish as something which is normal and which people don't even
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you know, conceive of it is actually happening so there's about one hundred and
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seventy of these schools. But what the other thing I would say is that
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when you say people don't have any real idea about this, I think that's
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true. But it's the scale of it is way larger than I've already described
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what I've described as effectively the core of the Zionist movement. And Vanessa was
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talking here about how it bleeds into the rest of the society, and I
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think that's a really, very very important question. If I made me say
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a couple of things about how I think that happens, and then we can
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get into particular details. So obviously there are those elements of the lobby which
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are attempting to to persuade, bully, intimidate, in doctrinate or pay for
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other parts of the society to do what they want. And the most obvious
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place that happens, of course, is in Parliament, where as we see
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today, the election is happening today. I don't know for broadcasting this today,
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but the election is on today, and there are some one hundred and
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seventy or one hundred and eighty MPs currently in Parliament, although they're you know,
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they're not technically in Parliament anymore, who have taken money from the the
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Israel lobby, mostly of course from labor friends of Israel and conservative friends of
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Israel, but also from particular zion and store is like Trevor Chen who has
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been the effective head of the Zionist movement in the UK for some twenty or
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thirty years, and many other zion storess whose names have been banging about on
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Twitter or x in the last a few weeks. And that the people who
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are who are in receipt of this money are largely not Jewish, and they
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quite often can become what you might what might be called careers Zionists, so
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they're recruited usually at a young age when they're at university. So the Jewish
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Zionists are recruited effectively at primary secondary school, whereas the non Jewish careers Zionists
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tend to be recruited through the National Union Students and through the student movement.
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And you can see examples of these are all over political life. Luke ay
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Curse is a very famous one who's standing for the seat in North Durham.
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John Woodcock, Lord Walneys is called now the government's advisor and extremism. John
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Mann again, another government advisor who's now in the Lords, and the whole
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range of others Joan Ryan, for example, who was the head of Liberal
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Friends, which all non Jewish careers Zionists who are inculcated into the ideology.
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It was when the help of money say yes quite often, not always.
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I mean, Luk A. Kirsten appears as not I mean, obviously he's
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a he works full time for the Israel Lobby and is paid by the Israel
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Lobby for his work. But I mean he's a famous clip of him on
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on Twitter where he says, you know, I often wondered why they didn't
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take me to Israel in a free trip, and he says that Jeremy Newmark
16:22
of the JLSA said said JLC said to him, but we didn't need to
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take you, that you were already convinced. We only wanted to take the
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people who we needed to convince. And how it works, right, So
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there's the careers Iionists, and that of course is a very important way in
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which Zionis ideas trickle out into the body politic and other parts of society.
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But then there's a whole series of other activities. So I mean I would
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put under one umbrella, for example, intelligence activities, so you know,
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obviously the most carries out activities here, and it was charged in the nineteen
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eighties, for example, of the idea that anti Semitism and antisionism were the
16:56
same, and it was in charge of a process has led to and it
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eventually became the International Holocaust Members Alliance Definition Working Definition of Anti Semitism, lodged
17:07
at the IHRA in twenty sixteen and used as the main weapon against Gremy Corbin
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and against indeed all the Propolestline movement all over the world. The intelligence operation
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of Mossad is really quite interesting and sophisticated, and people don't really have any
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conception of that, and I can tell you some details of that actually want
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to. But the other element of the intelligence operation is especially associated with Unit
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eight to zero zero, which is the signals intelligence unit of the Israeli military
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and the equivalent of GCHQ in the UK or the National Security Agency in the
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US. And one of its strategies in the last twenty years has been to
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invest heavily in its staff or x staff doing tech startups, so that for
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example, in the UK, there are something like four hundred is really X
18:00
startups. Now, these people are people who are engaged in contracts and all
18:07
sorts of tech work which brings them into contact with agencies in the British government
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and with other data which is which might have a potential use to Israeli intelligence.
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Now we don't have clear evidence of the way that that has been directly
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used by theysually regime, but it's perfectly but parent that there are many Israeli
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companies stuffed full of X units. It to zero zero veterans who are working
18:37
directly in contracts where they have access to data which is of national security importance,
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for example with the Foreign Office, where of course the two major and
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other intelligence agencies in the UK based with the Ministry of Defense, with the
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National Health Service, et cetera. And that's of course in addition to all
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of the tech firms who have access to who are who are selling hacking software.
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The the NSL group, of course famously advised by Cherie Blair, celebrate
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a whole range of other companies which we've discussed and exposed on our show Palastandy
19:15
Classified. And that's a really very important element of what you might call a
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broader zion this movement, which is really intelligence operations in this country which are
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having a significant effect. And so that so there's the career of Zionists,
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there's the is really intelligence operatives. And then of course there's a way in
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which this recruitment or into the Zionist ideology then works its way through the political
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system so that people who well not just the political system but the economic,
19:45
political and cultural system of this country, so that later on people who have
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gone through that training end up in significant positions in for example, politics,
19:55
in government, in whitehall, civil servants, in economics and in fine and
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indeed in the cultural industries as well. And that of course has helped along
20:03
by the fact that the Jews are overrepresented in relation to their head their their
20:11
per head of population in the UK, and they did in the US and
20:14
other places too, in economics, in politics and journalism, in the civil
20:22
service. In fact, Jews of massive and of course comparatively Muslims are by
20:30
far the worst in terms of their representation in the population. Of the British
20:34
population has zero point five Jews and it has six point five percent Muslims.
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And so you can see that that when you come to look at the figures
20:44
that the hugest parity there is there. So there's a kind of advantage which
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which Jews have because of historical processes or whatever is the reason which means that
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these zions ideas because of course both Jews overwhelmingly are Zionists. We don't know
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exact figures, it depends how you count them, but between sixty and and
21:04
ninety five percent the ultra Zionist would say ninety five percent, probably somewhere in
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between. So when you have a bad glass duties are by and large average
21:18
wealthier to have higher take home pay than does anyone else, including white people,
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then what you have is an advantaged a level of access to decision making
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for Zionists. And that's what you find time and again. That's partly why
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you find, for example, in the national security and extremism field, neo
21:40
conservative institutions with a high proportion of people who are from a Jewish science background
21:47
pushing forward policies in the UK which are in whose interest, which is in
21:55
Israel's interest as opposed necessarily just clearly British Brittish imperial interests. However, one
22:00
might want to categorize them so that that's part of the other element of the
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power of the Zionis is that is the is this threading through the fabric of
22:11
society of people who have our what should we say, genocide ideology, fundamentally
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racist genocide ideology, who are not fit to be in public service, any
22:22
of them. But nevertheless, we don't have any yet, any real language
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or or a way of discussing that or thinking about that which could lead to
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a process of deiradicalization, Desionization, and the dismantling of the Zionist movement,
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which which we clearly have to do since it's uh shows most science have wanted
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to to make nice with the Palestinians or indeed with anyone else. Vanessa,
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any comments or thoughts on that or questions, No, I mean, I
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think you know, the more that David and I have talked a partners,
22:56
the more you look into it, the more horrifying it actually is, the
23:00
extent to which their reach or the reach of the Zionist movement has expanded into
23:06
every single sector we're focusing on British society. I mean, I keep telling
23:11
people look at the twenty to thirty roadmap between Israel and the UK to fully
23:15
understand the extent of reach that the Zionists have in every single sector of British
23:23
society. And I guess, really, what maybe we need to help people
23:29
understand because you know, they may still be saying, well, okay,
23:33
but you know you can just say this is a tech development partnership. How
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is this going to affect the ordinary person in the UK in the future.
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I mean, for me, it's clear we're being actually infiltrated by as David
23:51
described it, it's a genocidal, supremacist, racist ideology that is incentivizing those
23:59
that control all the decisions that affect our life into either believing in that ideology
24:07
or at least supporting it for their own gain. Let's say so, I
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guess for me, it's an important thing for people to fully understand to what
24:18
extent this is going to affect us. Well, not me, I'm in
24:23
Syria, but I mean the ordinary person in the UK. Let me ask
24:30
you this question and then and then we'll get David's thoughts on it if we
24:33
could. What what are we looking at here? Are we looking at Israel
24:37
as a British project? And in fact, the entire Zionist movement is an
24:47
out growth of British imperialism, or are we looking at a British project which
24:55
is effectively gone, rogan is starting to take over British institutions again. Well,
25:00
you know, I think that's a kind of a circular discussion question because
25:06
it's a very difficult one to answer. I tend to see it that Israel
25:11
was a settler colonial project that was basically sorry, the electricity just came back
25:18
on, that was kind of midwide by the British, but the British were
25:23
heavily incentivized to do so. Then obviously, the entire movement has to a
25:30
large degree been adopted by the United States to further its own neocolonialist agenda in
25:37
the region. And to me sometimes it appears that it was Britain's Frankenstein that
25:45
has turned into an uncontrollable monster, and that the monster to some degree now
25:52
is consuming the society that created it in the first place. That's to a
25:59
lot just agree how I do say it. But at the same time I
26:03
can flip it and say that the ideology of the Zionists is not far from
26:11
the British imperialist ideology. Also, so as I said, it's it's a
26:15
very sort of I'd be really interested in David's point of view on this.
26:19
Okay, So I mean I think that when you when you ask these kind
26:22
of questions, I mean, people tend to ask these questions just in relation
26:26
to Palestine or the influence of science. But I think, you know,
26:32
let's look at the parallels. First of all, what are the parallels that
26:34
happened in other settle of cloneal situations. I think I'm thinking of Algeria,
26:40
or South Africa, of Northern Ireland, Rhodesia, and now of course called
26:45
Zimbabwe, and let's that was Zimbabwe. I mean, let's remember Ian Smith
26:51
declared UDI from Britain uh Universal Declaration of Independence. And of course that's an
26:59
indicator, isn't it that settlers can go rogue. And indeed, I don't
27:03
go further than that. I would say that settlers always go rogue. It's
27:07
the condition of settlers to have separate interests in the than the metropolis. And
27:12
that was the case with they are in jorder and the loyalists in the North
27:15
of Ireland remains the case. That was the case with the Peede noir in
27:19
France. In Algeria, it was the case with the Bores and indeed with
27:25
the white settlers in South Africa, and it's the case in person. So
27:27
that's that's the first thing to say that they always go ro. That's that's
27:32
kind of that's in the dna of the settler, because a settler colonial situation
27:37
has its own material circumstances. But I get a lot of stuff from from
27:41
socialist groups. We'll say, oh, you don't understand the material relations.
27:45
And I would say, and they want because they want me to talk about
27:47
class and say, well, of course, the solution to its real palestine
27:49
is is a socialist revolution in the whole West Asia. And I say,
27:52
well, guys, it's not only about the settler. Colonialism has its own
27:57
material basis, and that in the base say that the interest of the settlers
28:00
diverged from the interests of the metropolis. It's perfectly clear. But that's always
28:03
what happens. But let's let's come to the exactly the precise example. So,
28:11
yes, it was a British project. Yes, there was a lot
28:15
that was lobbying to set that British project up from the Zionist movement, and
28:18
of course the land Pappy's new book on this is out now and you can
28:21
all go and read that, and you can talk about the extent of which
28:23
you know, the Christian Zionists form the Jewish Danists and jack Jewish Sionism and
28:30
all those kind of questions. But I think that that's a longer debate.
28:33
Let's not have that now. But what you see with the creation of the
28:38
state of Israel is that is an almost immediate diversion, that divergence, don't
28:42
you, between the interests of colonial Britain and the interests of the settler colonists.
28:48
And that's why, of course the Higana and indeed the Leffy, the
28:52
Stern Gang and the Argon started to kill British soldiers and hang them with piano
29:00
piano war, and we we trapped their bodies and bombed the Colonial Club in
29:03
London and excavate a copy of Shakespeare's plays and send it as the first ever
29:08
book bomb in the history of terrorism to the brother by mistake of a British
29:14
serviceman. And that divergence was already happening then. And when those when those
29:18
two soldiers are strung up with piano war, there were what is called anti
29:22
Jewish riots in this country, in Glasgow, in in in fact in the
29:29
Gurbels in Glasgow, in the area where my dad dad at that stage lived,
29:32
where there was the Jewish population mainly lived in the goobles. Then they
29:36
moved out later, of course, uh and and so you see that divergence.
29:41
Now, the diversions didn't it wasn't necessarily fundamental divergence, but it did
29:45
mark the views of the ruling class in this country quite notably. That's why,
29:52
of course Margaret Thatcher famously refused to shake when Afaim Began's hand when he
29:56
came to visit uh Downing Street, because he was, in her view,
30:00
a terrorist. And that's These are real things that happened at divergence. But
30:07
the divergence didn't What wasn't a straightforward process. It didn't proceed in one direction.
30:12
Let's remember nineteen fifty six the British collaborated in secret with the French and
30:18
Desionists to invade Suits when and and of course that was a dibacco heralding the
30:26
end of British imperialism, or the British impart to a large degree. But
30:32
then when we come up later we see that there have been continued divergences.
30:37
Although the u UK and the US have been supportive of Israel at the US.
30:41
More so, that's not stopped Mossad from operating against Britain and against the
30:48
interests of Britain. So, for example, when the Mossad ran an operation
30:52
using Palestinian informers to execute Nagilali, the famous Pelstonian cartoonist who's famous for Handela
31:03
the Young the we cartoon boy, he was executed in Kensington in nineteen eighty
31:08
seven, and Thatcher shut down the Mossad settle in London expelled them all.
31:15
Now, who would have thought that that a person of the kind of politics
31:21
of mart Thatcher would have done that. Of course, even later on when
31:26
David Milliband was Foreign Sextrey in the famous incident where the Mossad used forged passports
31:33
fake passport British passports to execute a Custom Brigades commander in Dubai and David Milliband
31:41
expelled. David Milliband, you know, as Zionist, expelled that Mossad as
31:47
a result of that. So you can see that there are ways in which
31:48
their interests are not always similar and sometimes diverge. And even that started really
31:53
very very early. I mean, Mossad had an agent inside the National Security
31:59
Council of in the late nineteen forties, and this was discovered by I think
32:05
by m I five, and the person was removed and the five files now
32:09
declassified, where the MI five case officer writes up the notes says, oh,
32:14
now we understand that that is hostile power in nineteen okay. So this
32:21
is not a straightforward thing, and that that hostility that there was between the
32:24
security establishment and the Zionists has dissipated, yes, to some extent, but
32:30
it hasn't meant that Zionists aren't targeting this country to pursue the interests of Zionism.
32:35
Right, let me finish. I'm sorry I've been going on a bit
32:37
long, but it's necessary, I think, to talk about some of these
32:38
issues. So what does that mean now? Well, I think Vanessa's phrase
32:44
that going rogue is very apt. I mean, what we see with the
32:46
Zionist project is not just an attempt to get a home lan for the Jews
32:51
and then they'll be happy and then everything can go back to normal, as
32:53
if that could have happened after that, et cetera. But I imagine that
32:59
could have happened. That's that's not what they want. They want regional hegemony,
33:01
and they want to do that through the pursuit of Israel to take as
33:07
Manak and Big and talked about it in the late nineteen sixties, ear in
33:10
the nineteen seventies, to take Egypt and part of Lebanon and the West Bank
33:16
and part of Jordan, et cetera, ctera. And of course what they
33:19
want is a wider higemony where they will have a greater Israel, and they
33:22
will become to some extent they already are an imperialist power in their own right.
33:30
And I think that's one thing which people on the left who want to
33:32
say tail doesn't like the dog, don't appreciate that. You know that there
33:37
was a time when Britain was the unrivaled global hegaon and that's not the case
33:42
anymore. So how did that happen? There's a historical process whereby Hegews replace
33:47
each other in the kind of Western process where there's been the UK and in
33:52
the US and the Israel is trying to become a junior imperial power of its
33:58
own and of course, in the context of of bricks and multiplarity, that's
34:02
unlikely to be successful, but that's their aim, and so I think we
34:07
should start to think about this idea that the Teal doesn't work with dog,
34:10
that they must be doing what the Americans want. It's not correct. I
34:15
mean, as we've said, settlers always go rogue, and they and there
34:20
have been few if I might say this, as rogue as as Zionists.
34:23
Yeah, I mean I'd like to I'd like to come back on the early
34:28
two hundred in a few minutes. But before do that, David, what
34:31
I may have asked you this the last time we spoke, but I'd like
34:36
to cover it again. If we didn't cover it, if we have covered
34:38
it before, and that is, how did we get what was the process
34:42
of getting from the point where we had the you know, Massad being expelled
34:46
by Thatcher and Labad? How do we get from that point to the point
34:50
that we are today, where the British government is, you know, totally
34:54
in bed with Zionism. Well, I would say that they're not to necessarily
35:00
totally imbent. There are still elements of the security establishment who are skeptical.
35:06
I mean, I don't know them personally, I couldn't give you their names,
35:08
but I'm convinced that they're you know, they don't speak to me much.
35:14
But I'm convinst that they are. But they're certainly not the dominant fraction
35:19
of the security establishment. How do we get that? Well, I think
35:21
we got there by I mean there was a process whereby if you look back
35:28
at the way in which we now think about political violence, where for political
35:34
elites in this country, in almost every other Western country, the main threat
35:38
that we face in terms of political violence is Islamic extremism and Islamic terrorism or
35:45
Islamism, a word which is simply invented in or a new use. A
35:50
new meaning of it was invented in about nineteen seventy nine nineteen eighty. The
35:54
term Islamist in English had never been used before in the history of the English
36:00
language. Term Islamism used to mean someone who studies Islam, but now it
36:05
means someone who is an advocate of political Islam, which is a uniquely and
36:10
necessarily awful kind threat to civilization, etcetera. Even if it's the case that
36:16
in certain circumstances Brutish and American intelligence might want to use Islamists to pursue their
36:23
own foreign policy agendas, such as as as vaneszaa is only too well in
36:30
Damascus, in Libya, et cetera, in other places. But let's moave
36:35
that to us, saye for one minute. So where did these terms come
36:37
from? Why do we have the term Islamist? Where does the idea of
36:43
Islamic terrorism come from? And it may or may not surprise you to know
36:49
that they come from, effectively, with a little bit of help from the
36:52
CIA. They come from Zionist intellectuals and from the Zionist movement. And let
36:57
me tell you exactly the term is Limbist is invented essentially by some writers,
37:06
some Zionist writers, Bernard Lewis, for example, his mentee Martin Kramer,
37:14
the so called gang of four of Islamophobic Prosionist scholars who are around with And
37:21
you can chart the way in which is this term has been news. We've
37:23
got a page on our website power based on the term Islamism Islamist, and
37:29
you can see exactly who started using it when. Of course, there were
37:31
some French scholars who started to use it around about seventy nine eighty in relation
37:37
to Afghanistan, in relation to the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt, and relation to
37:40
other areas as well. And some of those French scholars, it transpires,
37:45
had some sort of relationship with the CIA, but it's largely from Zionist scholars,
37:52
and in particular, I mean they almost almost almost really incredible. Single
38:00
point of origin of both the question of Islamism and Islamist and indeed Islamic terrorism
38:05
is a conference held in Washington, d C. In nineteen eighty four,
38:09
towards the end of the first regal, the Rigan presidency, and it was
38:16
organized by a think tank called the Jonathan Institute, named after the brother of
38:23
Benjamin Netanyah who and who rather conferenced benjaminaw who himself he edited the book which
38:30
came out of it. And it was there that had a previous conference in
38:31
seventy nine in Jerusalem where the term Islamic terrorism wasn't really used. There was
38:37
a very very brief discussion of it, like a tiny paragraph of one of
38:43
the contributions. In eighty four, you have a whole panel on Islamic terrorism
38:47
chaired by Bernard Lewis and the other three members of the Gang of four forget
38:52
their names exactly, but each one of them more islamor for than the last.
38:57
And that's where the term comes from. And you can see again it's
39:00
on the website the way in which the term Islamic terrorism replaces or Islamic or
39:06
islam Is terrorism in books in English. On that you can do a Google
39:09
end gram on this. Anyone can check out the data replaces other sorts of
39:14
terms. So the term communist terrorism is a term which is used quite regularly
39:19
in books in English from about nineteen forty four, starting I would guess with
39:23
the operation in Grease against the left in Greece, and communis terrorism becomes a
39:31
term which falls out of use in around about nineteen seventy five nineteen eighty,
39:37
at which point the term Irish terrorism becomes much more important. Now then in
39:43
the graph they sort of flow along and they replace each other. But by
39:45
the time you get to the nineteen nineties, the term is limits terrorism and
39:50
Islamic terrorism really massively take off from books and English, and you're seeing a
39:53
change in the way in which we think about postal violence. And that change
39:57
comes not straightforward, not by a decreeving issued by then Israeli government, but
40:05
by a process whereby the zion is conquered the national security infrastructure of the US
40:10
and the UK. And that's why we have today, the kinds of policies
40:14
we have on extremism. That's why we have someone like Lord Walney doing his
40:17
Extremism review just the other day. I mean he's a career Zionist. Or
40:22
why we have the center for what's it called, the Commission for Counting Extremism.
40:28
That's why we have Michael Gove. That's where we have the New Extremism
40:30
Policy. I'll finished on that, the New Extremism Policy introduced by Michael Gove.
40:35
Just a couple of months ago. We did a show on this and
40:37
where does it come from? Well, it starts off life as a report
40:43
by the Policy Exchange set up by Michael Gove, and then the findings from
40:49
this are taken up by the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism and Extremism, who is
40:52
a guy called Lord Showcross, who takes up the post from his other posts,
40:57
it's previous post at the Policy Exchange, and then he gives the report
41:00
to Michael Gove Aloso Exchange, who introduces the more or less straight into into
41:07
law. That's how it works. This is a and who who is at
41:09
the funds of Policy Exchange. Big surprise, it's Zionus family foundations and these
41:15
are the main funders of the of the Policy Exchange, especially it's work on
41:19
Islam, just like it's the main funders of the Henry Jackson Society. So
41:22
what we see here is a process which you operates, you know, below
41:27
everyone's sightline, out of radar contact, but which nevertheless, when you look
41:31
at it actually occurs. Okay, that that that that is spectacular. I
41:39
was gonna go and spit on the eighty two hundred at this point, but
41:43
before we do it, because this raises another question for you, David,
41:46
and that is, if we if we look at so called right wing extremism,
41:53
so called white nationalism, and we go back to the nineteen eighties,
42:00
in the nineteen nineties, even in the early two thousands, anti Semitism was
42:08
a part of that, you know, in however you define anti semitism,
42:13
that was a part of that. And and somehow the right wing has fallen
42:20
in love with Zionism. And I'd be interested if you've got any insight into
42:23
the process by which that happened, and that was it lenked to what we
42:28
just discussed with respective government. I mean, this is the thing when you
42:34
start to look at this stuff. I mean, I mean, I like
42:36
to say this because I'm sure it annoys the Zionist But you know, if
42:38
I hadn't been sacked by the Bristol and being able to spend almost all of
42:44
my time investigating Zionism, I would never have found out half of this stuff.
42:49
But when you start to look, when you start to look at it's
42:52
too extraordinary. I really had no idea of the kind of length, the
42:54
kind of the range, and the depth the power of the zions group.
43:00
I really had no idea. I was really I mean you know that.
43:02
I mean I talked about the Zionist group with quite a lot, but I
43:06
was only in the foothills of understanding. I believe I still am. So
43:09
how does this happen? Yes, the right across the whole of the European
43:15
and abandons antisemitism. Anti Semitism disappears really as a form of racism in this
43:22
period. And they tested take up Zionism with me Tommy Robinson, and she
43:30
had Builders and all of the rest of them who become Judeo files who become
43:37
pro Zionists, not all of them, but quite a lot of them.
43:39
And that's significant, and I think that's part of the reason why we see
43:43
the decline in more or less extinction of anti Semitism as a form of racism
43:49
in the UK today. And I got criticized for saying this by a number
43:52
of people who left, including the SWP, who's only come back was to
43:55
say, but look, look, Victor Robin and hungry and I I give
44:00
you the point, right, you could have that point. But where is
44:02
as you said, as a form of racism in Britain today, where Jews
44:07
are racialized, where the physiognomy is discussed, where they're inherent greed and all
44:13
of the things which are associated with the racialization of Jews doesn't exist anymore.
44:16
And part of the reason for that, I think is that the society has
44:22
moved on and that they and I would say, you know, if you
44:25
look at the definitions of racism in the dictionary, all the definitions have some
44:30
reference to the fact that to be racism, it has to be structural,
44:34
it has to be institutional. There has to be for our structure. And
44:37
you know, the forms of racism we find in society today are racism against
44:39
Muslims, against black people. Yes, of course, as has been the
44:44
case for many years in the seventies and eighties, racism against the Irish,
44:47
and that's because these were state directed projects threated by the police, the counter
44:51
intelligence, the count insurgency industry, the counter terrorism establishment. But the thing
45:00
I found more surprising is to look at the way in which the anti racist
45:05
movement in this country developed. So for most of the period since the nineteen
45:13
forties, the anti racist movement has focused by and large on the question of
45:17
anti fascism when it's dealing with racism, and that, of course has been
45:22
a way of saying that the main problem, even if people didn't believe this,
45:27
the main problem of racism in this country is fascism, and actually it's
45:30
not. The main problem in racism in this country is racism against black people
45:35
and Muslims, directed by enacted by largely the state. Yes, of course
45:39
we've got people on the streets and the street armies, et cetera. But
45:43
this is the state which does that. And I think the focusing of the
45:50
attention on anti fascism allowed there also to be a sort of solidarity of anti
45:55
racisms encompassing the Jews as well. But of course that was done at a
46:00
price, and the price was that we didn't focus on the main forms of
46:05
racism. We didn't focus on institutional racism. There's only really been one major
46:10
anti racist organization in this country as far as im where the Anti Racist Alliance
46:15
led by Mark Wadsworth, which had focused which focused on institutional racism and state
46:21
racism, which of course are the main the main types, and that part
46:23
of the reason for that is the influence of the Zionist movement on the anti
46:28
racist movement. That sounds like an extraordinary thing to say. Let me just
46:31
give you a couple of examples. So one of the earliest anti racists,
46:36
anti fascist groups in this country was a the UH, the forty three group,
46:42
which is a group of largely Jewish ex servicemen coming back from the Second
46:47
World War determined to fight fascism in Britain. Large numbers of them were communists,
46:52
members of the Communist Party of Great Britain specifically UH, and they fought
46:55
fascism on the streets of London. There's a documentary, sorry drama called Ridley
47:00
Road by the BBC on it. I did a review of it. But
47:04
what's unbelievable was unbelievable when I started to research that was that actually what was
47:09
going on here was was that that although they tried to keep Zionism out of
47:14
the organization, it was it was and became a Zionist organization, and such
47:19
such that not only did it allow its members to join the Nagba and to
47:23
fight with the Hagana and indeed with the Argon at the starting gang, but
47:29
it also on block affiliated to the Argon in nineteen forty eight. So this
47:37
this anti fascist group was affiliated to the ergon the Revision as sign is terrorist
47:43
organization. And that when I started to realize that, I started to trace
47:46
through all the other groups which came out of that. So the sixty two
47:50
group, the Group Relations, Educational Trust, Jacob et cetera, et cetera,
47:55
the same people were on a search Light, same people were all in
47:58
these organizations. They they set up a whole range of other groups, which
48:02
I think it's fair to call Zionist anti racist groups, and so in particular
48:08
search Light that it was headed by a guy called Jerry Gable who was the
48:14
director of intelligence for the sixty two group, and his director of finance in
48:17
the sixty two group was a guy called Gerald Ronson, who, of course
48:21
the famous Guinness fraudster who went on to set up the Community Security Trust the
48:25
key organization in this country blurring the distinction between anti Semitism and anti science.
48:30
And so that we have a whole trajectory of Zionist organizations and the trajectory from
48:36
search Light, which was very close to British Intelligence and the special branch is
48:39
that they set up in our organization out of search Light called Hope Not Hate
48:44
currently found a sabotage alternative candidates in the British election, including from especially on
48:50
the left. So that's the whole trajectory of Zionist groups. And sorry started
48:55
to go on, but just briefly, then, how does that affect the
48:58
other anti racist groups that people will know about, the Rock Against Racism,
49:05
Anti Nazi League, Against Fascism, Stand Up to Racism. Well, I
49:08
would say how it affects them is that these groups were compromised by having relationships
49:14
with and indeed having on their governing boards people from the Zionis organizations. So
49:20
for example, search Light had two people Jerry Gable and another guy from such
49:25
Light on the board of the Anti National League from the beginning, and that
49:30
of course meant that they they want they didn't want to focus on structural racism.
49:34
They didn't want to focus on questions. They wanted to focus instead of
49:37
anti fascism, which was not even then the main threat that people of color
49:43
faced in this country. And so that I think is part of an explanation
49:47
for the question you've got. And there's one more thing I would say,
49:51
which is that these far right groups which became which abandoned anti Semitism and took
49:57
up Islamophobia, it wasn't just that they did that because that's what the state
50:00
was doing. It's also because it's what the Zionists were doing and what the
50:04
Zionists wanted them to do. So when you look at the the you know
50:07
who is at the funds Sharfielders in the Netherlands, who is at the funds
50:12
has funded Tommy Robinson, Stephen the actually Lennon who is it? The funded
50:16
Katie Hopkins. And when you look you see it's the Middle East Forum in
50:23
the US, or it's the Shieldman Foundation, or it's the David Horror Fitz
50:28
Freedom Center, of which are It's like, yes, is lamophobic organizations funded
50:32
by the Zionists. And that's that's truly mind bloy when you start to realize
50:37
that the far right, it's being bankrolled by the Zionist movement as well,
50:40
and people will have no idea of that. Really. Wow, well yeah,
50:49
I'm speechless. I think David, please write a book very soon because
50:54
this information is kind of I mean, like you said, I am very
50:59
much at the foothill. You've just possibly elevated me considerably higher just in one
51:06
hour. Please write a book as soon as possible, because this is so
51:10
important for people to understand how they're being manipulated by the Zionist movement. It's
51:19
extraordinary. Okay, Well, well, look we're running at a time,
51:24
but let's before we go, let's talk a little bit more about unid Eity
51:29
two hundred because, as you said, David, Vanessa and I have covered
51:31
this in recent weeks on the UK column News. It's well my point about
51:38
this has been, you know, we have seen the British establishment banning Huawei,
51:46
for example, from taking part in commercial activities in the UK because of
51:52
the risk the national security of Huawei, telecoms kit on five G networks and
52:00
telecoms networks. At the same time, we have you know, Unit fifty
52:06
two hundred back or eighty two hundred packed organizations. We've got checkpoint we've got
52:10
a home, We've got Juniper Network, bunch of networks organization in Oracle,
52:15
which is basically running every government database that's in existence, and these are all
52:22
spawned from the is really equivalent of GHQ, which is all about signals intelligence.
52:29
And if you are a signals intelligence organization and you're spawning commercial organizations which
52:36
are capable of producing which are producing gear which is capable of gathering bulk data,
52:45
which is the whole basis of signals intelligence, it's not a coincidence that
52:49
they are building these types of organizations. So why why are the British people
52:55
not chatting about that and the dangers of that with respect to national security and
53:01
our personal security? In fact, well that's the why question is a difficult
53:09
question, but I mean, look, there aren't there is no equivalent of
53:15
the Zionist penetration of the tech industry. France isn't doing it, Tanzania isn't
53:23
doing it, South Africa is not doing it, Algeria is not doing it.
53:28
The Chinese aren't even doing it. I mean, the idea that Chinese,
53:30
the Chinese Party runs TikTok or is some kind of major threat. I
53:37
mean, it's ridiculous. But that, of course is part of the propaganda,
53:38
isn't it. The threats that we face are from China, from Russia,
53:43
from Iran, not from Israel. We cannot talk about that, we
53:45
cannot mention that, we can't even conceive that that is the case. But
53:49
of course the main threat is from Israel, because it's the one which is,
53:52
you know, empirically speaking active in trying to penetrate our systems. Larry
53:58
Elson, who runs Oracle, who, as you said, runs the databases
54:00
for i mean national security relevant databases for Home Office, the Foreign Office,
54:06
the MD and then the National Health Service. I mean, people have got
54:08
to be out of their minds if they think this is not an actual national
54:12
security problem. Even the national security establishment knows that it's a problem. And
54:16
then you can see that because of course they investigated Patrick Darky are you familiar
54:22
with him, who now owns a large proportion of British telecom and he runs
54:28
of course, like twenty four news in Occupied Palestine, and he bought up
54:35
the French, famous French radical newspaper Liberation, and he appointed as editor to
54:40
that newspaper someone who was a veteran aware any two hundreds yeah, yeah,
54:47
go and say, but they investigated him for national security and of course they
54:52
didn't announce what the reason was, but that's the reason, right, And
54:57
I mean they have they have people in there who can see that this is
55:00
an issue, but obviously there are also people in there saying keep it,
55:04
keep it dark, old boy, we don't want to do this, and
55:07
that allows the penetration. I mean, Elison is a is a fanatical Zionist.
55:12
It was it was wasn't it him who who just happened to have in
55:15
his back pocket a billion dollars to end to you on masks to buy Twitter?
55:21
How I think that's what happened. Yeah, you've got you've got a
55:25
genuine problem. I mean, I see the Scottish Parasti solidarity of trying to
55:29
raise the issue of the company which runs a surveillance technology in Glasgow City city
55:34
center and for the Godish Khana in in Dublin, and that's a really intelligence
55:40
link firm as well. And Authentics, which is the one which is now
55:45
you know, checking the identities of everyone who's got a Twitter account with the
55:50
blue check plus what's the premium plus on Twitter? That's really company? Uh,
55:58
and the idea that this is not a problem, and then the idea
56:01
that that the NSL group which has done all this hacking software, which sells
56:08
it to you know, to the Saudis and to the UEE and to repressive
56:14
governments everywhere, and of course theyse really remain with a with a back door
56:19
into the data gathered by these other countries. When the Saudis are cracking down
56:24
on the dissidence, Israel has a window on what's happening, and we do
56:30
we imagine they're they're not using that window. Well, of course they are.
56:34
I mean, this is absolutely absurd and people have no conception of that,
56:37
and that we do need to raise our game here and properly explain how
56:42
this works and why it's an issue. Mh that that's a thought. I
56:50
agree one hundred percent. I think it's very important for people to understand how
56:53
this infiltration is going to affect our daily lives, whether it's on social media,
57:00
whether it's in the health sector, whether it's in suddenly our personal information
57:07
turns up somewhere in Israel and is being used for nefarious purposes. I think
57:13
it's incredibly important for people to fully understand the extent to which Israel Is.
57:19
You know, are we living in the UK or are we living in little
57:23
Israel? I mean, that's basically what it's coming down to. Now.
57:27
Are our politicians working and representing us or are they representing Israel? Yes?
57:35
And I mean Vanessa, with all these companies that are being incubuted by Israel
57:40
and Israeli intelligent, then of course there are jobs that are dependent on that
57:45
incubation, and so people's loyalty is effectively brought on a much broader basis.
57:52
Yeah. Absolutely, Just one final question, David. You talked about par
57:57
base, and you talked about palistine and declassified. Just tell us a little
58:01
bit more about parbase because it is a fantastic resource and tell us how people
58:07
can find that. Okay. So, in two thousand and four or five,
58:13
as a result of the propaganda over Iraq and also the question of lobbying
58:17
and corporate power in the UK, ME and some colleagues set up a company
58:22
called Public Interest Investigations and it has two projects. One is spin Watch,
58:28
the website spinwatch dot org, which has reporting and reports, and the other
58:32
one is a wiki site called power base which has tens of thousands of pages
58:37
on it, which tries to profile individuals and organizations engaged in public debate and
58:43
show you where they get their money from, who they're linked to, et
58:45
cetera, et cetera. And that's an ongoing project, which you know,
58:51
it is useful. Some of the pages are out of date. It needs
58:52
a lot more investment of research, but it's a useful way of trying to
58:55
keep tabs on some of this pass Underclassify is the TV show which I produce
59:02
and I'm the regular commentator on, which is now produced twice a week.
59:08
It's on Press TV, which is the Iranian government's English language service, and
59:15
which is available the band from YouTube, but which is available on on X,
59:21
on Facebook, on rumbo. Uh. And I think we've got an
59:25
Instagram page as well now, so there is, yes, Telegram channel is
59:30
probably the best one. So yeah, so that's that's there, and it's
59:35
we're p d classified p declassified on Twitter and similar on the other social media
59:40
and you can follow us there. We do investigations twice a week now and
59:46
you know, you get stuff there that you more or less don't get anywhere
59:51
else. Yeah, okay, brilliant. And I think the web addressed for
59:53
parbas is part based on in for isn't it? I think that's it.
59:58
That's right, Okay, Well, well look, I think that's been a
1:00:00
fascinating conversation. David. I would like to repeat this at some point in
1:00:07
the not to this in the future and delve in a little bit deeper.
1:00:10
But I'm going to say thank you both for joining us today. That has
1:00:14
been fascinating. And well I'm just going to end by saying, you know,
1:00:17
when we were looking at the Israeli lobby money that was being paid to
1:00:23
the MPs, I'm sure it was not an exhaustive list, but you know,
1:00:29
you began this program by talking about Conservative Friends of Israel and libor Friends
1:00:34
Visrael. There were other Friends of Visual groups that I'd never heard of.
1:00:37
I hadn't heard of Northern Ireland Friends of Visrael, despite the fact that I
1:00:39
was born and grew up in Northern Ireland, and a whole host of others
1:00:44
that are just pumping, you know, relatively small amounts of money. But
1:00:46
of course it all adds up if you're getting money from disparate groups, and
1:00:52
you know the number of Friends of Israel groups. We don't have Friends of
1:00:54
It League groups that I'm aware of on this kind of skill, so you
1:00:59
know, people, people should be asking these questions, you know. So
1:01:04
look, we're going to leave it there for today. I'm going to say
1:01:06
thank you very much to you both, and we'll see what the what the
1:01:08
response is to this, and and we will we will undoubtedly ask you both
1:01:13
back in the naught to this. In the future the delve a little bit
1:01:16
deeper. So thank you both, thank you, thank you. Thanks mike H