Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 186. Life Under Roloff - The Jason Tackett Story

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186. Life Under Roloff - The Jason Tackett Story · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:00
Welcome back to the Four Freedom Podcast.
0:02
Listen, we've been working hard to bring lots of content for you
0:06
and we hope you have enjoyed these last couple of weeks of
0:10
our fundamental footprints. We are so excited about looking
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at the future fundamentalism and today is Thursday, September
0:18
11th. We are looking at celebrating
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America today, Patriot Day, Patriotic Day, I believe is what
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it is on the calendar. You know, this was a day that
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will live in infamy in my mind. I was in 7th grade when this day
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happened when I was just a young child and I saw one of the
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towers fall there. And so hopefully you remember
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that a little bit. We don't talk a lot about
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politics on this episode, on this podcast, but we do want to
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share just a couple of things with you and today's interview.
0:50
I have been excited about this and we'll share some more about
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it in a minute. But like I said on my last
0:59
week's episode, this is a special two interview week, two
1:03
different people who have shared their story and we hope you
1:07
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us. Lots of great talk and lots of
2:49
great things there. I am in Tennessee at the time of
2:53
this recording and looking forward to a time of this
2:56
release and spending time some well, quality time.
3:00
I'm with John also at a conference here selling some
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different things and just making some connections.
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And so hopefully you're in the area we can get together.
3:11
Looking forward to Israel coming up.
3:13
I'm just sort of giving some highlights here.
3:15
Some things, if you haven't went to our website, go to our
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website for Freedom Podcast. You can find all these things on
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our website, our all of our episodes, all of our content
3:25
that we put out. There's some resource tabs
3:27
there, some books that you can go to, some different media
3:31
things as you can get. And we are excited about that.
3:35
We're excited about our future fundamentalism coming out next
3:38
week, looking at the future of where fundamental is going.
3:41
And we have an interview that we have worked on, we recorded over
3:45
this last summer. It is going to be most likely
3:50
one of our highest profile guests that we've ever had and
3:54
we're going to next week who that is and who that's going to
3:57
be about. We're also rolling out a new
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that next week as well and hopefully you will be able to
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support that as we go into our holiday season, some gift bundle
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things that you can use for that.
4:14
We are excited about the future of the podcast.
4:16
We're excited about what the Lord is doing, the content that
4:19
he's been giving us, the ideas we are, when I say we are
4:25
scheduled out, we have our schedule almost until the summer
4:29
of 2026 scheduled. And so we have been working
4:33
hard. We've been working diligent.
4:35
I want to thank, thank you for listening.
4:37
This is episode 186. Who would have thought when we
4:41
started this five years ago, when John started this, that we
4:44
would have went 186 episodes. But God has been faithful
4:50
through the ups and downs, through the different changes of
4:53
how to figure out, you know, recording times and John
4:56
stepping away and bringing Brett on.
4:59
It's just been a great time. And so I want to personally
5:02
thank you for listening, for sharing this content, for being
5:07
a faithful listener. Many people share our content on
5:12
our different. I'll put out six or seven posts
5:15
every time it comes out. And a lot of you share it, a lot
5:19
of you like it, comment on it. Those are always great things
5:23
and I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart.
5:26
We don't do this for the money. We do this to help people.
5:29
We do this to be an encouragement to people as they
5:33
go through their journey. I know what it's like personally
5:36
to be on an island, to be stuck with no one to hear, no one to
5:40
listen to. And so I want you to know that
5:44
we are here for you. Our podcast is here for you.
5:48
Me and Brett are real people. We're real pastors.
5:51
We we have real families and we care very deeply about your
5:57
spiritual life and the spiritual life of our churches.
6:00
And so if you ever have a question, comment, concern,
6:04
message me directly, message Brett, reach out to us.
6:08
We would love to handle that. If you have, if your story has
6:11
been impacted and you want to come on, we, we never want to
6:15
get away from people sharing their stories.
6:17
We're going to give content, we're going to give information.
6:22
But the heart of our podcast is you sharing your story and you
6:25
sharing what the Lord has done in your life, whether that's the
6:28
pain, whether that's the trial, whether that's the victories,
6:32
whatever it may be. We want you to come on, we want
6:34
you to share that. And so reach out to us, let us
6:37
know. Maybe we've, we've shared a
6:40
story of a person, an influential figure that you sat
6:45
under, or we're going to share some people that you sat under
6:48
and you want to say, you know that my life has been impacted
6:52
by that person and I want to share how that was impacted.
6:55
Come on, talk to us. We'll line you up and be a great
6:59
time for you to be able to share.
7:01
Today. We've got an interview with the
7:03
guy named Jason Tackett. Jason Tackett, He's a author.
7:06
We were able to be connected through some mutual friends and
7:10
he's going to come on. He's wrote three books through
7:14
with and Sock publishing. He's also a pastor, preacher,
7:19
evangelist, and so a lot of open air evangelism that he does.
7:23
But the interesting thing about Jason, and we're going to talk
7:25
about it in our interview, is he was under Roloff 1 of Roloff
7:29
Holmes. He was under Ruckman and he's
7:32
had a journey in independent fundamental Baptist movement.
7:35
And so we hope you enjoyed this episode.
7:37
We hope you enjoyed this week with two interviews and a
7:41
wonderful time to be together. As always, if you need anything,
7:45
we're here for you and we thank you for listening.
7:48
We value your time and we know this will be a beneficial
7:52
episode today. For freedom set me free, not for
7:55
change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee grace.
7:58
Let the flame down, puffing peace cigars and victory
8:01
justified released. Welcome to the Four Freedom
8:06
Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the
8:09
freedom of the gospel. For everyday Christians.
8:12
With everyday issues. Saved by dress codes, not by
8:16
what I eat. I'm covered in the
8:18
righteousness, washed from head to feet.
8:20
No tally of tradition. No man made code.
8:23
Blood bought my freedom. Now I ride that road.
8:25
They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise.
8:28
But my prey still ascends past the legalist cries.
8:31
Christ plus nothing. That's the real math.
8:33
So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path.
8:36
He sat with sinners. I'm sitting with Saints, sipping
8:39
grace from the bottle. No room for face.
8:41
I like one for liberty. Toast to the king.
8:44
Every ash of sermon. Death has lost its sting.
8:47
For freedom He set me free. Not for change, not for guilt,
8:51
not for Pharisee Grace. Let the flame, Now I'm puffing
8:54
peace, cigars and victory justified released.
8:58
For freedom He set me free. Not for change, not for guilt,
9:01
not for Pharisee grace. Let the flame now I'm puffing
9:05
peace cigars and victory Justified released that grace
9:09
begin now here your. Host James Seyfried and Brett
9:20
Martin welcome back to the podcast.
9:22
Welcome back to an interview today that we've got with Mr.
9:25
Jake, Jason Tackett, and he reached out to us through a
9:30
mutual friend, you guys may know him, John Hollyfield.
9:33
He booked, he roomed with him on a outreach event at the Super
9:37
Bowl and how they got connected. And his publisher reached out to
9:43
me and said, hey, I know you guys have a podcast.
9:46
Would you guys be willing to interview him?
9:47
So at the end of the episode, we're going to sort of talk
9:49
about his writing and his books, but he's had many of years under
9:54
Lester Roloff and we're in our Fundamental Footprint series
9:57
ANYWAYS, and also spent some time under Ruckman.
10:00
And so we want to have him come on and share some personal
10:02
experience with those two individuals and then also spend
10:05
some time talking about his writing.
10:07
And so Jason, welcome to the show.
10:09
Why don't you give our listeners just sort of a brief background
10:11
of who you are, where you came from and how many kids,
10:15
marriage, all that fun stuff and and just sort of give them a
10:18
history of who you are. OK, well, thank you James for
10:22
the invite on here. As far as my background, I am a
10:29
preacher's kid and A and a preacher's grandkid.
10:34
It just kind of ran into ran into the bloodline there for a
10:39
really long while. But, but my background, my
10:43
family was saved really under the influence of the BBFI.
10:53
So how they, they, they in the late 60s and 70s, my grandpa and
10:58
his entire and, and my dad and, and all the siblings were saved
11:04
under related ministries of the, of churches that came out from
11:09
the Bible. This Bible college over there in
11:11
Springfield. And if you're not super familiar
11:15
with that aspect, they are, they are kind of a more liberal wing
11:22
fundamentalism, or at least they were.
11:23
They weren't necessarily as rabid as some of the other front
11:29
fundamentalists, but they were, they were very missionary
11:32
minded. So my father, my grandfather,
11:37
all of them went through Baptist Bible college.
11:40
My grandfather ended up becoming planning the church in Morehead,
11:46
KY that my father, that my father, after I was born,
11:49
actually moved in the late 70s and became the assistant pastor
11:53
there under my grandfather. So I grew up under that realm of
11:58
fundamentalism. So growing up, I was, I was what
12:04
you would call the prototypical preacher's kid.
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I rebelled and I rebelled very, very in very pronounced ways and
12:19
went off into some some very hurtful addictions for many
12:24
years. And I was almost 22 years old in
12:27
1999, where due to a loving family who's constantly reaching
12:36
out to me and trying to bring me to Christ, taking away my
12:44
Christian moniker that I kept saying I had and asking me to
12:47
examine myself. Both my mother, my father and
12:51
some others and some other things that were happening were
12:54
drawing me to want to change my life.
12:58
They recommended that I go down to Roloff's ministry.
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Of course, Roloff had been dead since 1982.
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This is 1999. His assistant pastor, Wiley
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Cameron was the man that was was still heading the realm at that
13:16
time due to the fact that the Lord was already dealing with me
13:21
at that point in time. Shortly after I arrived there, I
13:27
made a profession of faith and, and, and the fact that I was
13:31
wanting to follow the Lord probably changed a lot of my
13:35
view of the place. And I know that there's a lot of
13:38
people that have really bad memories of what they call the
13:43
farm, but, but it was also where I started cutting my teeth in
13:48
ministry. As far as, as far as family
13:50
goes, since being saved, I, I, I had two boys that are now both
13:56
adults Now the one's 22 and one is 1 is 19.
14:02
They're both in college at this point in time.
14:05
I raised them as a single parent after and that would do that
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gets me connected with some of my some of my connections with
14:15
especially the ruckman side of this.
14:17
But but after a short lived marriage, I ended up live
14:22
raising them as say as a single parent.
14:26
I have since married. I married again in 2019 to my
14:32
lovely wife Holly. We now have a two children.
14:36
So besides a 22 year old and a 19 year old, I also now have a 5
14:41
year old that just started kindergarten this week and a
14:44
three-year old girl. I've never had a girl before.
14:47
So it's that's a completely different and that's that's
14:51
where I'm. At so got you.
14:53
Well, great. Thanks for that.
14:54
So. You said you went.
14:56
To Bible Baptist in Springfield, which is now Mission University.
15:01
Marc Milioni is the is that is that the same 1?
15:04
Is that is that the same one we're talking?
15:05
About yeah, I saw that they changed their name now I didn't
15:08
go to BBC by this Bible college. That was my grandfather and my
15:12
father. That was just kind of kind of
15:16
the flavor of fundamentalism that I that I grew up under.
15:20
So my grandfather was very much a fellowship and always so a lot
15:26
of those old time, old time fundamentalist were in and out
15:31
of my grandpa's church when he was still pastor there all, all
15:34
the time. So was that that was that was a
15:38
lot of the strict doctrinal stances were were part of that
15:46
not as rabid as as a some of the later manifestations, but a lot
15:52
of the strict standards as well were kind of instilled,
15:58
especially under my under my grandfather, not as much under
16:01
my father. My father was not a fellowship
16:04
man at all. He was, especially when he when
16:07
he took over his pastor of the church, he was about his local
16:11
church and really didn't affiliate much outside of it,
16:14
which ended up being a great blessing to me later on in life
16:17
is he didn't carry as much of the baggage.
16:21
In that so yeah, Mission University was Mark Milioni the
16:27
the new leader there a couple years ago at a meet up in
16:31
Bourbon and we got to hang out in Bourbon, MO with him and had
16:35
a great time. And so I, I wasn't very familiar
16:38
with with Bible Baptist at all until then and, and now they've
16:42
moved on to Mission University, so.
16:44
Yeah, I saw that they changed their name and that was
16:46
interesting. So maybe it's a kind of a move
16:49
away from from. Yeah, Yeah, I think it is.
16:54
And it's sort of moving more toward the the center position
16:57
and not the far right of of legalism.
17:00
And that the RFP has done a interview with him and the
17:06
Recovering Fundamentals podcast has done an interview with Mark
17:08
Milioni and talking through that transition.
17:11
And it was a really good interview they did.
17:13
And so appreciate that. So tell me about your time
17:17
growing up in the IFB leading into going to roll off.
17:21
You mentioned it a little bit, but want to sort of share that
17:24
and then sort of go into your time with the roll off
17:26
ministries there? Well, like, like I said, I was,
17:30
I, I became the prototypical preacher's child.
17:35
Preacher's kid rebelled and rebelled very early in my life.
17:43
There. There was some some trauma
17:49
specifically related to members of the specific members of the
17:53
church that may have underlined some of my rebellion and kind of
18:00
hatred that that developed in my heart towards the things of God.
18:06
But around 8th grade, I that rebellion started becoming very
18:13
manifest in in drug use things of that nature.
18:18
And that was something I pursued all the way up 7-8 years, I
18:22
guess until, until, until the time of my salvation, my dad
18:28
took over the church. Like I said in 1990 that he, he,
18:36
he was a fundamentalist as far as a lot of the, a lot of the, a
18:42
lot of the things that you would, you would relate to that
18:46
is. But at the same time, he was
18:50
softening and growing on a lot of things throughout those
18:53
years. And so my experience all the way
18:59
through high school, all the way through the early years of
19:02
adulthood was, was just running in that rebellion.
19:05
My family constantly trying to help me and me being resistant
19:13
to that help and just continually to run away from the
19:17
Lord until I think I think it was right around my 21st
19:23
birthday, the Lord started convicting me of my sin.
19:27
Oddly enough, I was sitting in a diner at 3:00 AM and it was a it
19:32
was a fundamentalist truck driver that was passing out,
19:35
passing out tracks about the end times that calls me and a friend
19:40
to start talking about the Bible.
19:41
And he, he reminded me and I was lost at the time, but apparently
19:45
I gave him a Bible all those years ago when we started
19:48
talking about the end times and he was showing that to me
19:51
online. But that's either here or there.
19:55
So I went through months of conviction.
19:58
I remember my mom coming to find me one day when I was at at a
20:05
well, for lack of a better term, my drug dealer's house.
20:08
And she found me there and started asking me questions
20:11
about. If I'm really a Christian and
20:15
that that hit me really hard and I started examining my life in
20:21
about two or three months later, August the 1999 I had already
20:30
decided I wanted to change. I wanted to I wanted to start
20:34
doing something. I was tired of where I was at
20:37
and they suggested the suggested I go down to Roloffs and that's
20:42
how I ended up down there. So and like I said not not too
20:47
many hours after I got there, I would say this when I repented
20:54
and turned to Christ and and have continued ever since.
21:00
Yeah. So tell us about your time in
21:02
the role of homes. I, I grew up listening to Lester
21:04
Roloff. Lots of men that I was under
21:10
were influenced by him. But, you know, at the same time
21:14
didn't really know a lot. I mean, he was, he was, he
21:16
passed away, you know, when I was a young kid.
21:19
So there wasn't a lot of personal interaction with him as
21:22
your time down there. Was there a lot of reference to
21:26
Lesor Rolf? They do a lot of repeated of
21:29
what he was doing. Was there a lot?
21:31
Just sort of tell your time of what it was like while you're
21:34
down there in the home. Well, my I'm like you my but my
21:39
exposure to Lester off goes back very early in my life.
21:43
In fact, I didn't know he would later be my pastor.
21:46
But I remember the Cameron saw Wiley Cameron and his wife
21:51
coming to our church with a group of girls to sing for us,
21:55
and I remember the testimonies they gave.
21:57
I also remember them accidentally running over my
21:59
dad's pine trees when they were trying to maneuver the big bus.
22:03
So I, I, I grew up knowing of Lester Roloff.
22:07
I actually think Lester Roloff was probably the last big tent
22:18
fundamentalist figure in in fundamentalism as a movement.
22:24
And you might be able to think of someone after him, but you
22:26
had everyone from everyone from Jack Isles, Lee Robinson, and
22:31
everybody was rallying around Lester Olaf.
22:35
You also had reformed folks like Rushdoony and others that were
22:38
rallying around him. For those that may not be
22:42
familiar with Lester Olaf, he was very he, he, he was, he was
22:52
about almost building this cultural culture of what he of
22:56
Christianity there on. And that then the farm where
23:00
where you had these homes for men, women, boys, girls became
23:04
that lightning rod of what he was trying to do.
23:07
He it it it was the 70s and when that was happening and I was I
23:12
was not around at that point, but but that culture was still
23:17
the culture I remember stepping into when I moved down there.
23:22
If you can almost call it a homesteading culture almost you
23:25
were when you went there. You worked with your hands six
23:28
days a week. You worked really hard.
23:32
You were growing your own food, making your own bread.
23:36
You know, I mean all all that kind of almost like almost like
23:40
a a type of communal living almost was was the experience he
23:47
lesser off was all about living more naturally as far as some of
23:56
his big works that the people still pass around today is his
23:59
little pamphlet or little booklet food fasting and faith
24:03
about eating Whole Foods and and fasting on a regular basis and
24:09
that being impetus for you growing in faith.
24:12
So that was the culture I stepped into still under Wally
24:15
Cameron in 1999. It was a culture shift for me.
24:23
And as far as Lester Roloff, I, we're, we're going to get into
24:26
Rutman here shortly. And I, and I think there's a
24:29
stark contrast. I would not say that they were
24:32
necessarily outside of the cultural Malay.
24:36
And that was around the place. We're going to grow our own
24:40
food. We're going to live on our own.
24:42
We're going to do all this stuff and outside of those teaching
24:46
surrounding that you he wasn't he wasn't set up as as as a
24:53
singular voice you need to listen to.
24:56
But with that being said, when we woke up in the morning, I was
25:00
staying at the at the home called the lighthouse.
25:03
When you woke up in the morning and went to breakfast, they were
25:06
playing, they'll let the, the, the Oh my goodness, mind that my
25:10
mind just went Blake, the family alter program.
25:13
So you were listening to Lester Roloff when you woke up, you
25:15
were listening to every, every time they were broadcasting
25:18
Lester Roloff. It was just what they did.
25:22
So he loomed large and he kind of set the tone for the kind of
25:29
culture that the, that the place had, self-sustaining,
25:35
homesteading kind of culture. But it did.
25:40
But like I said, there will be a stark difference between him and
25:43
figures that would later come after him as far as holding him
25:48
as as this infallible source. One of the things that has
25:53
always struck me with Lester Wolff is, you know, he did have
25:57
a Bible college that I could tell.
25:58
He may have had a little institute or something, but his
26:01
reach and influence went into these colleges and being able to
26:08
have these influences over these other organizations to get he
26:12
was doing was incredible. Like the way could fundraise and
26:17
bring people in and bring some of these things in was was
26:21
always just fascinating to me to see that how he did.
26:25
That was the last question I sort of want to ask.
26:29
Is the environment that you were around there under lesser loft?
26:32
Was it the typical legalistic environment or had things
26:38
changed? I mean, this is a couple years
26:39
after roll off a data, had things begin changing or was it
26:43
still that, you know, very oppressive nature.
26:48
Yes and no. And like I said first, the
26:52
first, my experience was as someone before I even got there
27:00
was was desirous to turn my life around and serve the Lord.
27:08
I can. I can see like like I've seen
27:11
some of the interviews, some of the things that people put out
27:14
and even ones that I knew of some horrific experiences that
27:19
they had here had that had there.
27:22
And I can see a lot of truth in what they had say.
27:26
I can see that it could create that that had a tendency to
27:32
create an impressive environment for those that had no interest
27:36
at all in following the Lord And, and I so, so it's, it's
27:43
almost, I once compared it to have you ever seen the show
27:46
Lost? And there's a there, there's
27:49
this island there. And you never really figure out
27:52
what the island is. And everybody's having these
27:55
experiences. Some of them are wonderful, life
27:58
changing experiences, but many of them are not.
28:01
And whatever the island happened to have been, it was the most
28:05
significant point in probably all of their lives and it in for
28:09
good or for bad. And that's always kind of the
28:11
analogy I go to there. I can see how some people had
28:24
had some trauma from it. It was.
28:28
And with that being said, brother Cameron, I still hold
28:35
him in very high regard in my own growth as, as, as, as a, as
28:43
a new Christian. He was fundamentalistic, but he
28:49
was also open minded theologically and he was feeding
28:54
me books from Puritans and, and, and things of that nature that
28:58
really helped me to grow and was encouraging me to grow in
29:01
certain aspects. But there were people around him
29:07
that were far more fundamentalistic.
29:09
In fact, that's really one of the, one of the, one of the
29:13
avenues that I got into ruckmanism with was with some of
29:17
the people there that were taking positions, you know, But
29:23
yeah, it, it was fundamentalistic and, and
29:26
legalistic in many ways. You have this idea of the need
29:35
to culturally conform to this standard, this standard, this,
29:39
even if you don't believe it while you're here, you're going
29:42
to do it because this is what Christianity looks like.
29:46
And when you take a heart that does not, when that that does
29:53
not want anything to do with Christ or at least anything to
29:58
do with those those standards and you force it upon them and
30:02
then you enforce those rules, then, then it was a recipe for
30:12
for some very bad experiences to happen.
30:16
If I don't know how else to say that and I know why I was down
30:19
there, I they were sued and I ended up getting somewhat
30:27
involved in that lawsuit as well due to some allegations that
30:30
were made against against the homes at that time.
30:34
And there, there, there, there were some, there were some
30:39
things that even even in those situations that you can look
30:45
back and you said, yeah, those things shouldn't have been
30:47
happening. And and we're not good that they
30:51
did happen. Yeah, absolutely.
30:54
I think it goes back to what we talked about often the the
30:57
preaching of the outward sanctification versus the inward
30:59
sanctification. If as long as you get the
31:02
outside looking right, everything else is going to be
31:04
fine and not necessarily working on the heart and the Lord
31:08
desires for us. And so I know the Roloff homes
31:12
have been open to a lot of scandals and abuse over the year
31:17
or any of that that you ever saw while you were there.
31:20
As far as the abusing of the women and the girls that run the
31:22
home, Were you ever part of any of that?
31:26
Well, like I said, I was involved in a lawsuit that kind
31:30
of did get blown out of proportion a little bit just
31:32
because, well, you have to go back to what happened with roll
31:36
off in the 70s and why he was the big tent figure in
31:40
fundamentalism that he became was because he was the man
31:44
standing up against the state. So he can minister to these
31:48
people, specifically children in need.
31:51
And they had these homes, the Anchor home for boys, the
31:55
Rebecca home for girls that he was trying to run.
31:58
And he refused to do so without with a state, without a state
32:02
license. And that's what had the state
32:05
authorities coming in and all these people from Hiles Anderson
32:08
to Rushdoony all coming to his side and that ended up getting
32:14
the homes closed. So Fast forward to 1999 or 1998
32:20
prior, just prior to us getting me getting there, George W Bush,
32:25
who was going to be running for president, allowed for those
32:29
those homes to open back up. The children's homes, the adult
32:32
homes have been operating all that time.
32:37
So politically, all eyes were up on it and then that was part
32:43
part of it. I will say as far as my
32:46
knowledge in the men's home, what you have you you.
32:54
If you think about the Stanford prison experiment, where where
33:00
the part of the people were. And I can't remember all the,
33:03
the, the points of that, but but the volunteers for that
33:09
experiment, some of them played guards and some of them played
33:13
the prisoners. And, and those that were given
33:15
authority as guards would abuse the prisoners and become abusive
33:21
towards them almost naturally. There's something in the human
33:23
heart I don't have. I did work, I was working in the
33:30
lighthouse at that time that these events happened.
33:34
And I will say that the the model there was enforcement came
33:44
from the people that were in the program as well.
33:48
You would make them leaders and you would make them enforcers.
33:52
And so in that aspect, you almost have something like the
33:59
standard Stanford prison experiment where you are, you
34:03
were allowing for people that shouldn't be in charge to be in
34:10
charge and abuses arise out of that.
34:13
Now, I don't have any direct knowledge out of that in the
34:15
girls home. I did.
34:17
I was affiliated with the girls home when the state closed the
34:22
home in 2000. During all of this that was was
34:27
getting ready to come down upon them.
34:28
In 2000 I helped them remove move the Rebecca girls home
34:33
first the Missouri a little place called Devil's Elbow and
34:38
and then I helped them move to Pace FL where they continued and
34:44
I guess now the people that were over it moved it back to
34:47
Missouri at some point, maybe a 5 or 6 years later, I was over
34:53
their school. So I don't have I but I was
34:55
never a part of their day-to-day management.
34:57
But it would not surprise it. But when I say I hear these
35:01
girls that were involved in those homes say AB and C
35:05
happened, it was not contrary to how the entire system work in my
35:13
experience. And what, what, what got wrapped
35:17
up in that lawsuit was, was just that the, the fellow people in
35:24
the program were enforcing and with a, with a nod and a wink
35:29
from certain people that were managing over, they would
35:35
enforce certain things and certain things would happen
35:38
that, that, that were traumatic. So I, I, I would say a lot of
35:44
that, not all the allegations, but, but I would say there were
35:51
so little truth value in about all of it.
35:53
Yeah, I think it's interesting that you bring up the Stanford
35:56
prison experiment because oftentimes this is what this
35:59
model leads to is a couple of individuals that have been given
36:03
power and that goes to their head.
36:06
And they, you know, for the Stanford prison experiment, it
36:09
was a 12 day or two week experiment that they were going
36:13
to do for two weeks and they had to end it after six days because
36:16
the ones over the guards were just dehumanizing the ones that
36:21
were because they had this author and power that was given
36:26
to them. And so often times this is what
36:29
happens in these small legalistic environments is I'm
36:31
in charge and I'm going to take over and control and you know,
36:35
there's no consequence for me. So roll off.
36:38
And you saw several things there, sort of talk about your
36:42
transition, the years you left Roloff and went to Ruckman and
36:46
and how that looked the transition and and going to
36:49
Rutman. Well, it overlaps a little bit.
36:54
And first of all, the people that I was helping, as well as
37:03
moving the Rebecca home from Corpus Christi to Devil's Elbow,
37:08
Missouri, to Pace, FL. They were graduates of the, SO
37:17
they were over the Rebecca home. They were graduates of PBI.
37:20
That's a Pensacola Bible Institute that that's right in
37:23
school. So I was introduced to it.
37:28
That and of course, the mother of my, the mother of my two
37:34
older boys was, was, was heavily enmeshed in that whole movement.
37:42
The past the pastor from New Orleans, I became by necessity
37:51
close with was also one of a big, a big advocate, a graduate
37:58
of APBI and also also heavily enmeshed in that entire
38:03
movement. So I, I got involved in it
38:10
through those two avenues and while we were in Pace, FL, we're
38:15
just a hop skip and a jump from Bible Baptist Church and, and
38:21
where PBI was where Ruckman was preaching.
38:24
And that's how I ended up attending there for about a
38:28
year. Not because I, I, I it
38:32
immediately. My interactions with, with
38:36
Rachmanism were immediately negative.
38:39
And which I'm glad about because it also helped me to start
38:45
moving away from those kind of ideologies pretty quickly in my
38:50
life, even though I took me a long time to figure out where I
38:53
was going from there. My, my adversity with them was,
39:01
was constant. So.
39:06
So what was your time or interaction?
39:10
I guess I could say with Ruckman himself, was you there while he
39:13
was there or? Well, I had interacted with
39:21
Ruckman on three different occasions. 2 of them were just
39:30
passing and the third one was me attempting to address a
39:41
traumatic. I keep using that word traumatic
39:44
and I think it was a traumatic experience that a young girl had
39:50
via her interaction with other members and other attenders.
39:55
There she was a she was a mixed race young lady and.
40:03
And there was a sense in which the very, my first interaction
40:07
with, with the kind of fundamentalism that tended
40:11
towards overt racism and, and, and very vocal was, was in that
40:21
circle. And I attempted to bring that to
40:26
his attention, that that member of his church in the middle of
40:30
the church was yelled out something very racist to right
40:36
in front of this little girl, to which he simply brushed it off
40:41
and say, yeah, yeah, OK. And just that that I talked to
40:44
him all about 5 minutes and didn't really get much of a
40:48
response to it. And those were my only interact.
40:54
Most of my interactions were with the with the people around
40:59
Ruckman. A lot of the young men there is
41:03
unlike you. You asked the question about
41:05
Roloff and his influence while while while there.
41:11
Roloff had influence while I was there.
41:13
But when it comes to the circles around Peter Ruckman, it was it
41:20
was much more cult like. It was much more Ruckman is the
41:27
one that has almost this infallible interpretation of all
41:31
things and and it was it was a very odd as far as that goes.
41:40
Yeah. So you have that interaction
41:43
there for about a year. What happens after you leave
41:45
Ruckman? Where where do you go?
41:48
You talked about your your first wife is is that when y'all split
41:52
up or or what happened? Now that was that that that was
41:55
a few years later, although that was yeah.
42:05
So that that that was a few years later and had that after I
42:11
left Pace, FL in late, in late 2002, I was actually ordained
42:18
through People's Baptist in Corpus Christi.
42:21
And then a month later and a month later, I ended up moving
42:26
back to Kentucky where I started helping my dad in his church.
42:32
And so that allowed me to say I still was continuously having
42:37
interactions through that, through those relationships that
42:45
continued for many years. But but thankfully under my
42:50
father, that wasn't much of A fellowship man, I was, I was a
42:57
lot less in mesh with that, with those brands of fundamentalism.
43:01
If that answers your question, I can't.
43:02
Remember that was good. So leads up to now you, you've
43:07
published a couple of books. You began writing and talking
43:11
through some things. You've published 3 specific
43:15
books, Addiction of the Addiction and the Gospel, Sex in
43:18
the Gospel and your newest one, Hell in the Gospel.
43:21
So talk through your your journey into writing and how
43:26
this has helped you, leaving legalism, leaving
43:29
fundamentalism, how these these projects of writing have helped
43:33
you. OK, well I have taken a job with
43:40
a which is very odd coming from from roll offs.
43:46
I was told by some of my some of my former cohort there that I
43:52
had joined the enemy. But I I took a job in child
43:54
protection services with which I which I still do today.
43:59
I remember sitting in a training one day and this all kinds of
44:03
hat has to do with my with my move away from from
44:09
fundamentalism and and trying to trying to ground myself more
44:15
biblically from from the enmeshment of all these kind of
44:24
false legalistic standards and things of that nature.
44:28
I began to question a lot of those things that goes all the
44:31
way back to my time at roll off and, and, and some things with
44:36
with Rutman as well as far as the King James only ISM and, and
44:40
things of that nature. And a lot of a lot of that I
44:43
began to question and I wanted to study more for myself.
44:45
So I engaged in this study for many years and I remember
44:51
sitting in a training for, for, for CPS and it was a week long
44:56
training and I wanted to start trying to encapsulate some of
45:02
these things into hopefully to help my children after me.
45:07
And so I started to try to write out why, what I believe and why
45:11
I believe. And my, my thought was this is
45:13
going to be this grand work. And it, and it was the, my first
45:18
book that was self published and I hope no one ever reads it
45:21
because it's bad. But but it also it also helped
45:26
me grow in the in in my writing process.
45:30
The the addiction in the gospel was my next book outside and
45:36
outside of a one I wrote for my father after he died.
45:41
But and that was just something I did self published for the
45:46
sake of my family, so they can have something that was old
45:48
character sketch. But I wrote a word about
45:52
addiction just because I a it was encountering it a lot, not
45:59
only professionally, but also in ministry.
46:02
And I was finding that there were, there were things in, in
46:08
the in the treatment culture that was, that was difficult to
46:16
work through when you were presenting people cry their need
46:20
of Jesus Christ. And also I went through a lot of
46:24
stuff with the with my older boy's mother regarding those
46:28
those same issues. So it was, it was really about
46:33
trying to help people get through, get through that
46:41
treatment language that was moving away from Christ to
46:44
understanding their need of a forgiveness and redemption that
46:49
comes from Christ and Christ alone.
46:52
That was the first one I'd ever published through a publisher
46:55
and I was grateful to Whip and Stock Publishing to be willing
47:00
to work with me and do that. The next one was also what was
47:06
directed more to try and administer to my children.
47:08
How do I talk about how do I talk about sex and human
47:13
sexuality in a way that is that it's not meant to be read by
47:19
children. It's not like a how to book or
47:20
anything. So but but it is it's meant to
47:24
try to work through what the scriptures actually teach and to
47:32
to work through that and everything that our culture is
47:35
teaching to the contrary. And then the most recent one
47:39
came from it was hell in the Gospel.
47:42
It's a third one I did through the publisher and this grew out
47:48
of I, since my oldest son moved out, tried to meet with him once
47:55
a week just to that doesn't always happen and especially
47:58
since he moved an hour away, but but it tries probably still to
48:01
make it happen. And while I was doing that, he's
48:04
been struggling spiritually walking through a lot of things.
48:08
And one of the, one of the issues he keeps coming back to
48:11
is the idea of hell and the idea of a eternal torment and things
48:16
of that nature. And while I was talking to him,
48:20
I, I, I was trying to help reason out and talk through some
48:27
of the, some of his objections. And, and they were, they were
48:32
to, to my, I guess to a secular mind, they were very daunting
48:39
questions. And I wanted to try to do
48:41
something and study them out and they ended up turning into this
48:46
book. And hopefully, hopefully the
48:50
Lord will use it to minister to his questions.
48:53
And that was my main goal. But also, I mean, it was
48:56
ministering to me as I was writing it.
48:59
And that's really about it as far as the writing process.
49:03
That's great. Yeah, we'll definitely link
49:05
those books in our show notes for people to grab a hold of.
49:09
I know that that's going to be some great.
49:10
I've I've got hell in the gospel and I'm looking forward to
49:13
reading it and I hope you, our listeners will will do that as
49:17
well. Sort of last question I've got
49:20
and then open up for any final thoughts is, you know, you're
49:22
you're doing a lot of the open air ministry right now.
49:27
If the the Super Bowl open air evangelism and sort of tell us
49:32
about what that is and what that's looked like.
49:34
I know Ruckman, he was big on the the street signs and St.
49:38
preaching. Has this sort of evolved from
49:40
that or what? What's the the drive for that?
49:44
No, not, not necessarily. And it's funny that you bring it
49:47
up because the very first time I ever St. preached was in Corpus
49:51
Christi and it was with the Bruckman Heights that had that
49:56
had that had been part of that work.
50:00
I remember us going downtown to the to the bars on Saturday
50:06
night in Corpus Christi. We do one week in front of the
50:08
gay bar and then one week in front of the front of the
50:11
regular bar across the street. And it, it was interesting.
50:14
And I remember doing that in New Orleans and Pensacola as well.
50:18
And that was always with the rock nights.
50:20
I was never really huge on doing St. preaching in and of itself.
50:26
I didn't mind to be a part of it.
50:28
I was more interested in trying to have conversations.
50:32
That's actually How I Met John. You mentioned that earlier.
50:36
We we happen to be rooming together when we were at at the
50:41
Super Bowl. And that's the first time in a
50:44
long time I've done any kind of a street preaching open air.
50:48
So that that was a very it. It was nice to be around some
50:53
brethren that were that were a like minded that were that were
51:00
Christ centered and really wanting to really wanting just
51:05
to give the gospel and went and and and tell the lost of their
51:08
need of Christ and and that was grateful for that experience.
51:11
I got involved in that because the pastor of church 30 minutes
51:17
down the road had been involved with with a ministry that does
51:24
does St. preaching at sporting events, sports fan outreach and
51:33
and I would be happy to work with them again at any point in
51:36
time if able. But as far as open air, what my
51:40
goal now. I stepped away from eldership at
51:44
my at my church about 2 1/2 years ago and mostly because I
51:51
was driving 45 minutes to get there and I wasn't able to
51:54
devote the time I needed to do to serve the people there the
51:57
way they needed to be. I wanted to kind of devote my
52:02
life to taking the gospel out. And I do, I do a lot of
52:08
festivals and things and my and, and surrounding areas mostly I'm
52:13
not. Again, I'm not opposed to St.
52:15
preaching, but it's more just trying to talk to people
52:17
one-on-one, engaging conversations and and just
52:22
present the gospel to them and also wanting to focus on trying
52:27
to encourage other Christians in that regard.
52:31
What I'm seeing as I have conversations, especially right
52:34
here in the Bible Belt, and I'm sure down where you're at, it's
52:37
the same. When I do get a chance to give
52:41
people the gospel, almost inevitably, when I share it with
52:46
them, they'll say, I've never heard that before.
52:49
And we're in the Bible Belt and everybody's a Christian here.
52:53
And yet when you share the gospel, no one's heard.
52:56
And I've been encouraging some other pastors as much as I can
53:01
to to, to take that, take the gospel again outside the walls
53:07
of their church. Go to where the lost are.
53:12
Treat them respectfully. Treat them with kindness and ask
53:17
them if you can share Christ with them and and because
53:21
without the faith come without a preacher going, they're never
53:25
going to hear. And and so that's kind of what
53:29
I'm devoting this latter part of my life to doing is just
53:31
studying the writing, but also the taking the gospel out.
53:35
I. Love it.
53:36
I love the what you're doing and with the, the CPA, with the CPS
53:42
service and helping out children.
53:44
It's a, it's a great thing. We're we're commended to do
53:46
that, to take care of the widows and the orphans part of what
53:50
you're doing. And I applaud you for that and
53:53
thank you for your work there. Any final words maybe you got or
53:56
a thought in your heart you want to share?
53:58
Or any final things? Well, I do appreciate your time.
54:04
It was really good to meet you brother.
54:07
It's as far as final thoughts we in this line of thought
54:12
regarding Roloff and and Ruckman and and figures like that.
54:17
I think it's, I think it's so easy to to almost to fall into
54:27
that line where you, you were. You're like the children of
54:29
Israel saying let Moses go up for us and let him tell us what
54:35
we need to believe and what we need to do.
54:38
I think it's important for for us not to receive the word of
54:44
men, but to receive the word of God.
54:47
One of the things that Christ brought forth was you reject the
54:52
word of God because of the traditions of men.
54:55
And we can fall under that. We can follow and fall under
54:59
that so easily. I've seen that in, in, in, in
55:04
these movements where, where nothing is ever questioned and
55:09
God is not sought and his word is not sought as will is not
55:12
sought and it it can. And when that is done, I think
55:17
it's done often to devastating effects that we don't even
55:20
realize. And I'd always encourage people
55:25
to seek God, to seek to seek him through his word and, and, and
55:31
to be alright. The question is this what God's
55:33
word actually teaches and I think that's a really important
55:37
and I'm thankful that a your podcast has been doing that for
55:41
many years. I was actually introduced to
55:43
your podcast back in 2020. So I'll be know when I did get a
55:47
chance to meet John, I'm like, Oh yeah, I've listened to that.
55:50
And I remember your podcast was in the very beginning was, was
55:55
was one of you already at that point in time that was it wasn't
56:01
just ants asking the question is this biblical?
56:03
But but putting up a positive message.
56:07
I remember back very early you was you said, let's walk through
56:11
this portion of Scripture and see what the scriptures actually
56:14
say about our liberty. And hence you have your name for
56:17
freedom for out of Galatians. And so in that vein, I
56:23
appreciate your work, the work that you faithfully been doing
56:26
through the years. And and yeah, that's my final
56:30
word, I guess. We appreciate it and it's always
56:33
good to be able to talk and be able to talk through what we've
56:37
been through and that's we appreciate you coming on today,
56:39
Jason. And I know you got a busy
56:41
schedule, so we won't hold you much longer, but until next
56:44
time, to God, not the pastor. Be the glory.
56:48
Found my new name, found that good grace, found that healing.
56:54
And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning has no
57:00
ending. From that second chance, from my
57:01
best friend, from my forgiveness, from my happiness.
57:03
I've been singing ever since And by my freedom, me all.
57:19
Thanks for listening to the Four Freedom Podcast.
57:23
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57:26
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