Latest / Putting Is Fun / Arnold Palmer Asked John for a Putting Lesson, Ep. 2
Transcript
- speaker-1: Classic John Rooter, you can find your center, be a straight shooter, train yourself to respect the three-footer. Bring out your Scotty or that new fango lab. Your time rollin' puts will surely be fair. Putt, putt, putt, it's just like it seems you can drift away and chill in a dream. Putt with your rose, go soak up the sun-free vitamin D is good for everyone. I'm just spitting facts. Putting is fun. speaker-0: Yes, it is, folks. Brian Manzella and John Ortega with putting is fun from Funnel Golf, Episode 2. Johnny, I'm ⁓ very excited about today's show. So, one of the things you need to know about the two of us is we're both musicians. Ha ha. John wrote that theme song. And one of these days, when we're we're like episode 30 or 40 or something like that. speaker-1: Let's do it. I'm ready. speaker-0: We're gonna do it live. We're gonna do it. I'm gonna buy all you know what I always wanted to buy. I've never bought is one of those queens, you know. It's like a little box that you can kind of like, you know, play play play drums with your hands. You know, always wanted one of those things. And so John will get his little ukulele out. I'll sing ⁓ the harmony and it'd be great. It'd be great. So but I think it's fun, folks. And it wasn't fun for me yesterday. I'm gonna tell you. I I I I tried to have a good attitude about it. Me and my little flirtations with ⁓ langer putting, ⁓ two weeks ago I I decided after one hole of yipping one in from about five feet for par in the first hole I I decided I I was gonna play good. I I just had a feeling if I just putted decent and I putted langer with my Paretti putter, which is, you know, kind of a little more heel shafted than what I used to putt best with when I did that, which was an A blade. Which you know all about, O ping putter, Magganese bronze style. It's got a long grip on it, though. It's got one of those quad tour Garson grips. So it's a good grip for it. You got something to hold on to. And I made everything two rounds ago. But yesterday, boy, I tell you what, the whole round just went bye-bye on the putting when I still had a chance to, you know, shoot around even. And to me, what I think about that, everybody has bad putting rounds after good putting rounds. Everybody has different ways to grip it. probably not as many putters as Johnny has, but everybody who's a real golfer has a bunch of putters. I'd hate to know how many David Toms has. speaker-1: He gets them free though. speaker-0: That helps. I remember one time I I taught him in Dallas. I I I went to work for him for a couple of days. No, no, this might have been Shreeport. Don't remember. But you know, either way, before the big time. And he he w he paid me but he was short. Not he couldn't have wrote me a check or something like that. I said, Well w would you rather what would you rather I'll write you a check for the difference? 'Cause he was you know, throw me some cash, or You could have this putter. So he pulls this putter out and it's a Scotty Cameron pre Mizuno, pre anything, in really pretty good shape. I needed the six hundred dollars. How much would that putter be worth then? speaker-1: Depends on which one, but ⁓ the the kind that he used were usually handmaids. speaker-0: Yeah, it w it was definitely a handmade Scotty from from before any of the his affiliations. speaker-1: Don't know for sure. I'm just shoot shooting from the hip. I would say five grand. Minimum. Yeah, yeah. I'll minimum. I would think. speaker-0: But back to you know, the attitude of the show. And really, I think me and John, we would have never done a show called Putting is Fun. We'd have said, you know, learn to putt something like that. I am totally non-discouraged by the fact that I ruined the chance that you know shoot around even par you you don't you play once every week or you know, three times a month or something like that right now, working on all the stuff we have going on with funnel golf. and full time teaching, y you know, I just think I'll putt better next time. Or I want to explore, you know, the limits of an arm lock grip. You know, what if you if you take a pressy grip, you know, a a non through straight through the grip, and you it he has it so that the automatic offset of a lab putter basically looks like it comes in kind of funny. it makes you be able to hold your hands more normal. So what if you put it on the other side with a putter like a lap putter and then made it bigger and limited it out? I mean if I could get the darn langer grip, not have to put my right hand so far over, I think I could putt like a wizard. I think I could putt like Jake Knapp. speaker-1: Are you talking are you talking about in instead of forward leaning the shaft that you don't have to lean it as much or kind of going back toward the right arm like coocher? speaker-0: So what what for for the folks that don't know what langer putting is, so I'll just take this club and for the folks that are listening, I'll just try to do a good job explaining it's just my little short Zoom lesson club. It's just instead of just gripping it cross handed, I'm gripping it cross-handed, and then I'm I'm gripping down on the club, but it's got a long grip on it, and then I'm taking the part that's left over the toward the end of the grip or the butt of the club, spelled like my speaker-1: Pushing speaker-0: big Italian butt that used to be bigger and push it up against my arm. And I never grasped my arm like Bernhard did, but he put it that way. I just sort of like push it up against my arm and and grab the the putter grip that I have my right hand on with the with the last two fingers of my right hand a little. But but it when you do that, right, you you know, you have all you have to do all kind of crazy things with your left arm so that the shaft isn't leaning forward like People who putt anchored like Bryson, like Matt Coocher used to do when it was on his left arm. That that type of putting, what you need like six degrees of off or whatever. Well, I don't I don't need six degrees of off because I take my left arm and I work it back toward the middle of my work my elbow, let's say my left elbow and work it back toward the middle of my body. If I could just put my damn hands normal and and with you know, split my hands or whatever I would do. and still have something up against my left arm, it would be all over. I'm just telling you right now. And I think putting would be more fun. We could have a new show called Putting is More Fun. But that's just that's the attitude that I think you have when it comes to putting too you wouldn't own so many putters. speaker-1: The reason I have so many putters is w when I was with Byron, I think we talked about Byron a little bit on the last episode. We we always had a bunch of putters laying around, you know, just Tommy Armor's IMG fives, ⁓ designed by Arnold Palmer's. We had the Wizard or was it the Wizard of Sportsman, the the Jack Nicholas ⁓ modeling. Joe Joe. speaker-0: John Byron Butters. George Low Bristol Wizard Six Hundred. speaker-1: Yeah, we had one of those. Paid dearly for that one. speaker-0: Also a sportsman so they had the Bristol version and the Sportsman version. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So we we had a bunch of those things. So I I would just say vintage putters, we probably had a hundred and fifty to two hundred at least that were good ones that were, you know, we paid a lot of money for. And then we had all our putters laying around. So I I was, you know, for almost ten years I have I was around thousands of putters, right? Literally. And then when he and I split, I went to zero or not zero, but just a few putters, right? I I left with nothing. Just I think the putter that I was using at the time. So I went on eBay and I just started buying putters. It was just therapy for me. And so I would just buy cool putters. They didn't have to be expensive. They, you know, like an older ⁓ Ramsey. Anything anything. Anything that looked intriguing. I'm like, I gotta have that, right? So before I knew it, I was probably near 200 or more putters. And I started making a little bit more money teaching. And then I started buying, you know, Camerons and just different putters. I bought a lot of lot of the old John Byron putters. You I was paying Two hundred and fifty, three hundred dollars for a putter that I made that I you know we probably had less than a hundred into it. When people would see who bought it, they go, Aren't you? I'm like, Well yeah, but I just just wanna get one of my kids back, right? Yeah, I just want to get one of my kids back. speaker-0: Just wanted to buy a prodigal son that left home. Wanna kill the fatted calf and buy my putter back. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. In fact, here here's a good one. Arnold Palmer, that guy, right? He's right back here. I don't know if you can see him right here. Can you see him back here? Arnie Arnie. And I got Arnie here. So got two of them on my pedestals. So these pedestals, they're they these are my pride and joy right now. Because when I built the studio, ⁓ this is from my old putting platform, one of the two by fours. And we use this slap board stuff that, you know, this the background's made out of. speaker-0: That's definitely speaker-1: And so this is like a pedestal, excuse me, a two by four. It goes down, there's a base and then that, you know, it's just kind of a put together pedestal. I call them getistools. I love ⁓ These are my getestools. speaker-0: And and and and and also in interestingly, the putters back there, which will change because you have so how many do you have now? Long story short, how many do you have total? Five hundred? speaker-1: No, no, no. I'm I'm down to two hundred. I gave away two hundred and fifty of ⁓ when I when I moved in here to the new place. 'Cause it was my my old place just had putters door. So I got a lot of criticism and they go, Hey, this place is like, you know, looks like a trash bin. I'm like, no, it's got putters. I it's a putting place, right? But you know, I wanted to make this place a little bit cleaner. So I ended up giving up two hundred and fifty putters away and I just ⁓ god. speaker-0: Yeah, they were everywhere. speaker-1: Why did why'd I do that? Why'd I do that? I could have given ⁓ to my friend Steve Carfagna. We couldn't have sold ⁓ for ten bucks a piece. That's a fair amount of money. But there would have been some of them were probably thirty, forty dollar putters. But in any case speaker-0: Over your so over your left shoulder there. Yes. With Arnold from down the line not laying the club down. speaker-1: No. I that's I th I bought that for that reason. That's the steepest steepest new shallow. speaker-0: Tell us about that putter right there, because that sucker is got more air time than Elvis Presley. speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ you know what? Well, I don't wanna I don't know spoil it. I'll tell you when we're off the air. But Sure. And we just like rhyme and do different things just with words and so I you know, that's just it still sticks with me. That's why I like to rhyme and you know speaker-0: No. ⁓ speaker-1: Write a little bit of music. Not I'm not too far in, but this is I'm I'm gonna embark on starting to write songs because I I think it's fun. Just it's just cool. I like to be creative. But this the Taylor made spider the spider, excuse me, this is the one that JT Poston won with yesterday. Yes. And you see that little scoop out of the back? See the scoop, the little high beam scoop? Can you see that right there? Where it's like the relief area? Yes. I usually don't like claiming stuff. You know me, I'm a very humble person. I invented that. And I can I have proof. speaker-0: Yeah. And I know why you invented it, even though you've never told me. One of the John Byron, you know, y y'all's most famous putters was a long neck. And the neck probably weighed too much and you were trying to figure out a way, right? Is that it? speaker-1: Why is that? That's it. And the first one we scooped that I guess then. So the first one we scooped too much out and it bent because it was weak. So James O James O won the US Jr. putting with it. And when he you know arrived at wherever it was, I think it was Connery Forms where they played, ⁓ the putter was bent, so he just eyeballed it back to perfect, you know. But it was the the the t the hossle is still kinda like twisty, but the loft was right. But yeah, so that the high beam we called it, ⁓ so th but this putter right here, the the tailor-made spider, this thing's Kicking ass. I mean, if you look at the guys who've changed to it recently, JT Poston, you got ⁓ obviously Scotty Scheffler a little bit more than a year ago. He's done well with it, you know, going from a quote unquote blade like an answer style putter. Rory. Rory, yeah. Rory, ⁓ Aaron Rye. Aaron Rye, he he I was talking to Kia, the guy that's the tailor made putter guy. ⁓ he told me that they machined a hazel there's like an eighty eight ⁓ two and welded it. Because I asked him, Hey, can you get me like an Aaron Ride putter? And he goes, ⁓ no. So speaker-0: this this podcast will be special enough they'll be throwing putters at you. So so who would who would you what what the what it may be the right word is what or who could be either. What's the godfather of that putter? What what where did that come from? Like all the putter things have been kind of done, but there's some originality in it you know because you designed putters and still do. speaker-1: Hopefully I check. speaker-0: The J two O's, which I s I saw one online and I almost scooped it up. Anyway, you think that w w what what is the mother or father or grandfather of that spider butter? speaker-1: I guess you could be all. Well, it's it's a combination obviously of a ping answer because you have the plumber's neck, right? And then and then you you have the the sight on the top with ⁓ there's a little combo of maybe the Versa putter. You how he had they had the different colors, right? So a little bit of Versa there. And I think the general shape I wouldn't quite say a zebra 'cause it's elongated, but there was a Ben Hogan putter, I think he called it an edge that was kind of a branding iron. So this is you know, so when when and ⁓ myself included. When you wanna come up with something that's like a concept putter, you kinda like a what's out there and you know what's worked, and you'll borrow parts from this one and that one and put ⁓ together and see how it looks and feels. So I'd say it's you know a combination of a little bit of zebra in it. It's got a little, you know, this part right here. It's kinda oval looking, right? Egg shape, right? And then speaker-0: Got the got the famous Taylor made in so. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, that's ⁓ Giran Reif I think was the guy that did those inserts to begin with, or but I ⁓ I think it was, but classic mallet with you know exposed area, which ⁓ you know, th the the only one that comes to mind that was out for a while was the Hogan I think it was called the Hogan Edge. So it it's speaker-0: Yeah, I remember I remember that putter. And my my little story for that insert, and I think I've told you this before, but you know, it's a show. for folks that don't know all of our stories didn't want want to hear ⁓ I was at a tour event with David Toms and he I I knew he had this tailor-made kind of TPM one spaulding tour pro model, but that was just a euphemism for Truett P. Mills, right, who designed the putter, the the famous TPM one. David putter with a lot of TPM ones, and I think that Scotty Cameron putter that I could have got once upon a time from him. I think that was a that was a kind of a TPM one look. Of course, Tad Moore had the, but he's with Taylor made at this point, even though that didn't really go that great. He had this Taylor made T PM one style Rosa putter. Okay. And so I bought one. And I I I think I have the original next door, but I have a ⁓ a later bought but same model in here, the one you could go into a store and buy. So he's on the putting green and he's putting and he takes a break and he's talking to somebody. And I he handed me the putter because he was showing somebody something. And I picked the putter up and I put it in my hands and I went, I have this putter, and this is not the putter. This is not the tail-made putter. This putter looks just like a TPM, ⁓ a Mills putter made by, you know, because at that point TP had passed. David Mills, my buddy in the business who made me one that's over there. But not that model. Should have got that model. Anyway, I go, hey David, this is not a tail-made putter, is it? I've stamped Rosa. It's got the little insert the red version of that one right there that you have or whatever color it was yellow red or one of those two and he goes no no they david mills made this for me and Taylor made stamp roast on the back of it and David had the you know they I don't know if they gave David the insert to put in or they told David what the mill out and they they put it in and he he won some money with that putter. That was a good it was a very good putter so That that insert has been around for quite a while and it I think it does a a good job of of ⁓ you know, getting a kind of grip in the ball. It's it's different. And it they've obviously got better at it. And over your right shoulder is another putter of the moment right there. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. So this is the one that This is a ping putter that Wyndham Clark just recently switched to and I think ⁓ Tony Finow's using it too. It's called the Ping Alley Blue Onset. It's a Scottsdale tech. speaker-0: They have a PLD version of it too, a mill a milled version. But that's the non mill. speaker-1: Yeah, so it's it's it's virtually the same. But speaker-0: So it's a you look at it if you're somebody who's, you know, going to a PGA tour superstore or Roger Dunn or Evan Watts, we have here, which is part of the Roger Dunn network now, and you look at that putter, saw it on TV, right? Because Wyndham Clark, and a a few guys are using it in gals. And it looks like it might be in big quotation marks, zero torque, but it's not. It's a just a face balance putter. But it's different for some kind of way. Have you you've you've hit a couple of parts with it? speaker-1: Yeah, I I hit it ⁓ over at Carfano's shop. I ordered one of these and I wanted it to be here for for this podcast, but it didn't get here in time. So I went and borrowed one from from a shop, the s the little Newport shop where I taught for a while. But yeah, I hit a few putts with it. It's the one with the longer grip. Good. Good. speaker-0: Is you think it's got a counterbalance in the in the back end of the longer grip or no? speaker-1: ⁓ no, but just the grip being as big as it is and heavy as it is, it counterbalances on its own. But yeah, it's yeah, yeah, it's three speaker-0: So I think Wyndham Clark putts with the big grip, doesn't he? speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I I didn't study it too too ⁓ deeply, but ⁓ his p his putting during the CJ Cup, he he gained over twelve strokes on the greens. Yeah, and he wasn't he and he was putting Yeah, yeah, but that's still that's i if you get anywhere near ten, that's amazing and he exceeded that by, you know, a bit. So I mean the last few tournaments, the guys who won, they were pretty close to seven or speaker-0: Crazy stuff. It's over four rounds against speaker-1: or more. Like ⁓ Aaron Rye, I think he was six point nine strokes gain putting with, you know, percentages behind that. And then JT Post and was six point eight with this ⁓ this Taylor made. He just changed to that recently. He was using this some some Cameron. He's an interesting guy to watch putt. And he's the guy, I think we were talking about this on the last show, or you were anyway. How in putting you can do some pretty funky things and be pretty good. speaker-0: Billy Mayfair comes to mind. speaker-1: Yeah, or or or ⁓ Sawayoki. He used to take divots. And and you know, Palmer had his own little thing with his knees together and you know, he couldn't won seven majors missing puts, right? Eight. No seven. Seven? Seven. Yeah. You want Arnold Palmer story? ⁓ maybe. I'll I'll look that one up. But here's here's an Arnold Palmer s story for you. I got two, but ⁓ we we you want the one that's ⁓ speaker-0: Thank you. Watching one eight. speaker-1: I'll give you the one about up at Ohio. This is a good one. So he he used to like pimping putters from me. That means like getting a putter for free. Yeah. 'Cause he he had thousands. He ⁓ he made me look like I have one putter. He had thousands, right? So he comes up and he goes, What do you have for me? I'm like, Well, how about this one? How about that one? He goes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like speaker-0: This is in the days where you're on tour with the John Byron Putters and you're your own tour rep. speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. So he goes up, he goes senior event, senior event up at up at OHI. And so it's just Palmer and me, that's it. Nobody else, right? So he comes up and he gets a putter and he stands up and he starts wiggling it around, hits and putts. He goes, You want to give me a putting lesson? And I said, Well, yeah, well, but ⁓ let me ask you something, Mr. Palmer. How many majors have you won? He said, Seven. I said, Well, I haven't even won my second championship, so why are you gonna listen to me? He looks at he smiles, he goes, speaker-0: Regular van or a senior? speaker-1: You got a good point. And that was the end of that, right? That was the end. No, no. Almost felt like it would have been disrespectful for me to, you know, tell him what to do. If it happened today, I would have said, ⁓ let's let's see if I can't. But but but that maybe, maybe. And the other one, here's another one. It's not a Palmer one, it's ⁓ Tom Weisskopf. So I I gave Tom Weisskopf a putter, and he's, you know, same thing, he's standing up, getting ready to hit a putt. He goes, speaker-0: You don't get to give him a lesson. More street cred. Yeah. More street. speaker-1: You know, can give me some putting tips? I'm like, sure. And then he gets down and looks at the ball and he looks up and he goes, Just don't tell me I have too much wrists I'm like, Okay, I won't Your wrist your wrist action's perfect, Mr. Wy Weisskoff. So it's very so I mean speaker-0: sneaky good putter people people remember him as a great ball striker and and a sort of like underachiever you know because i I I think he won that one major at Trun but he was ⁓ he he he he shot sixty three tied it when Nicholas won the PGA I think in eighty they both shot sixty three the first round Weisskoff and Nicholas speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. He was he was he was amazing. speaker-0: What part did he what putter was he, you know, trying to get from you or got from you back then? Played? speaker-1: He just wanted a Dalehead. He just wanted a Dalehead. He just ⁓ he wanted to try and answer style butter. He actually got one for El Oakington. He yes, he won't he won't he won't ask you for one 'cause he's too I don't know, too embarrassed to ask. I'm like, we'll see. speaker-0: We'll have we'll we'll have him on the show. This will be d this will be a definite ⁓ guest that's we'll have the elk on the show and and and and so it's it's a it's a it's an interesting thing out on tour now, right? Because at a regular event, the amount of individual putters that are leaning up against bags in a perfect little I mean like nobody does food presentation it more carefully than they start with. It's got to be speaker-1: Yeah so so. speaker-0: Way over a hundred and fifty different putters from like if you just counted all the bag. I'm saying I'm saying you go to a tour event, not a not a fancy tour event, just a regular tour event. Right. There'll be like seven or eight companies that have putters and they'll all have like fifteen or twenty putters leaning perfectly in a circle around their bag. It's probably how Eddie Murphy felt when the Bath Girls came out. Different every day. They just could pick whatever one he wants. So it's just like, you know, everybody thinks that these guys, this is full full clubs, you know, they hit full shots and and putters, but this is putting is fun. People think that tour players go through some elaborate putter fitting that you couldn't get if you let's say went to a speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: person who's known for it, like John, and I know better. They are basically walking up to bags and looking at putters. And if something feels good in the hands, that's it. Is that is that pretty much your experience? You got a lot more than me when it comes to that. speaker-1: For the most part, yes. There's cer certain guys that are locked into what they believe is gonna be best for them. Like you probably wouldn't see although Tiger did use a mallet when he almost won the British Open when Molinari beat him, he was using like a heelshaft ⁓ tailor-made mallet. But primarily for years it would be like a guy would be a mallet bot guy or a pla or it would be a blade guy, like all the way blade, like Reuter Bullseyes or eighty eight ⁓ two style or you know, ⁓ T P. Mills, Tad Moore. Or they would be answer style guys and they would either use a ping or they use a Cameron or occasional guy a John Byron answer style. But now there's just you know, there's been such a shift to mallets. So if you look on the tour now, you know, I I haven't really done a count, but just a visual, just quick snapshot, I'd say there's eighty percent mallets now, maybe more, maybe ninety. speaker-0: It's unbelievable. Unbelievable. So when Tiger, you know, he's not that far from you, did did Tiger ever potentially have one of your putters? speaker-1: He did not, but I can tell you a Tiger Woods story. I got funny thing when you get old enough like me, there's you have stories and sometimes you like when you're telling them people go, Man, you're so full of shit. speaker-0: This is a Tiger Woods putting story. speaker-1: I got I got two of them, but I'll just ⁓ do the Roger Dunn's one. So he came he came into Roger Dunn's. I should start out with some kid, black kid, or mostly black kid. Yes. Comes to the Roger Dunn's and one of the ca cashiers calls a club specialist to come up to the counter to take an order. All right. So I go up there and ⁓ so what do you want, kid? And he goes, I want a 33 inch Arnold Palmer. ⁓ it was like the not like a Wilson designed by, but the ⁓ Arnold Palmer Personal that made by Pro Group. I want a 33 inch with ⁓ with a black leather grip. Okay, cool. So what's your name? He says, Tiger Woods. I'm like, ⁓ Tiger Woods, I've heard of you. He goes, Everybody's heard of me, and those who haven't will. He goes, just write up that order. I'm I'm busy, I gotta go. Like he's old was he? He was probably he was probably 13 years old. I'm like, ⁓ okay, kid, okay, you know, he you got a little swag, you know. speaker-0: How speaker-1: But ⁓ so I wasn't like a junior golf guy that you know followed all the junior golfers, but you I I heard of him, you know, and it's like the that was my first encounter with Tiger. Yeah. So there's there's my Tiger Woods or he did use ⁓ like an eighty eight ⁓ two style putter. And to this day I think it's worthwhile for kids to putt with like bullseyes or eighty eight ⁓ twos. I know your your ⁓ cohort Michael Jacobs, he has a bunch of bullseyes, right? And eighty eight ⁓ twos and eighty. speaker-0: Yeah, and and and his you know best up you know coming ⁓ what's the right way to say it. Yeah, and and also you know golfer on the rise, right, is is Pei Chung Chen, but we just call Chen. Yeah, and he has putted a lot with a current Wilson 8802, a current milled Wilson 802, and he he loves to putter it. He gives lots of speaker-1: Like a protege. speaker-0: Chen gives lots of putting lessons in in Michael's putting lab. And ⁓ he he ⁓ he switches between putting with a broomstick at eighty eight ⁓ two. Talk about speaker-1: Polar polar polar opposites, yeah. Yeah, he's a great he's a great kid. He's he's gonna he's he's gonna be on tour not too long from now. That kid is really good. speaker-0: There's no doubt about it. So in episode one, as we're now in episode two, I said I came up with this brilliant. It's just, it's almost like an easy thing to do. Anyone could have done it. The five elements of putting, the five major categories of things that are different, right? The putty, the golfer, and all the things we're gonna talk about, the golfer part of that today. And then the putter. So you got the golfer, the person doing the putting. putty, the putter, what they're putting with, the ball, what they're putting. And I'm telling you, I putted great with the Wilson Ultra. When I went from playing with, you know, balls like a titlist when there was a rubber band ball, you know, this is mid 80s. And and Stan Stopper, who ⁓ won the US Public Lynx and the Division II NCAA championship, and probably was the best player in his era. That didn't play the tour, who tried. I remember when I was working for Stan, and we can tell a million Stan stories, Stan had a repair shop, and I did a lot of golf repair for for him. It was my first job, refinishing wooden clubs for his his old shop with a guy named Buddy Orange, who, you know, is the person that sued the major companies to be able to put an off-course store. Not a green grass store with a PGA pro. They could order from titles and tailor made and ping and all these companies, and you have stores like Roger Dunn and Edwin Watts and PGA Tour Superstores. But anyway, back to Stan. So Stan had this crazy idea ⁓ while I was working for him at Pro Tech the second time. This is in like eighty five. Long story why he would call me Nummy. He would say, ⁓ nummy. ⁓ What kind of ball are you? You playing with that Max Fly, Black Max? I went, yeah. And he said, We're switching to the Ultra. I said, Max Fly is making an ultra? Nah. The Wilson Ultra. They're making a spinny Wilson Ultra? No. He was starting to get annoyed. He didn't get annoyed with me that much. He thought I was like a cartoon character. He said, No, we're going to play with the Wilson Ultra. Which for the folks that don't remember the Wilson Ultra was like the top flight was a two piece ball with a a hard center that had no spin, but it went real far. Went real far, went further than a titles by a lot. Of course, had no idea where the ball was gonna go. speaker-1: Well that's why they put they came up with the one r one ball rule too, right? Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, ⁓ no, I did that in college. Anyway, so this is this is I said I don't wanna I'll I'll never get back to the ball thing. So he convinced me that we were gonna play with the Wilson Ultra. It's ⁓ it's not gonna spin around the green. Yeah, but you know, ⁓ you know it's not gonna spin. Okay, and he was right. I chipped good with that thing. But what I did really well with the Wilson Ultra was I putted that. I had a just gotten like right when all this is going on, because this is I thought eighty-five, but it turns out it's it's not. It's eighty-six, you know. Because why do I know it's eighty-six? Because Nicholas wins the masters with the clay long design response putter, the big putter. And it was aluminum, right? Is it is that right? And if you speaker-1: Aluminum for sure. speaker-0: Putted with that putter with a soft ball. For me, it was a little dead. But now all of a sudden you hit this hard Wilson Ultra and I could putt better with it. So okay, we got the putty, we got the putter, the what you're putting with. Response. The ball, Wilson Ultra, or you know, a Pro V1 left dash, like I'm putting with now. Then you have the putting green, what you're putting on, not just the surface of the green, right? But the subsurface matters, how wet it is, how dry it is, how much they've mowed it, what kind of grass it is, and then all the crazy designed or just Mother Nature undulation undulations. And then the hole. When everybody said, well, the hole's always the same. Bullsh, it's not, because you could have a tour hole that's cut with that really good like titanium blades they use on tour, and then they Paint it perfectly white and the hole looks this big. Or you could you go to Royal Golf Club and Slide out where I played yesterday and the hole was like shrunken a little bit because it was wet and it's starting to get and it's doesn't have a liner. They got golf courses that have the little white liner that looks like you painted it, makes the hole look different. And then depending on how they cut the holes and what they cut the holes with and the dirt under, you know, underneath the greens, the subsurface. The hole itself is different. It it has like a sharp edge or a or a or a soft edge. Greens, you know, you can go up to the hole and read the grain by looking at the hole. So these these five elements that we talked about just for a second at the end of episode one, we're gonna dive into today. And the first one, John, is the golfer. When you're given a putting lesson, do you kinda figure out right away that there's certain things a person can't or can do because it's just the way they're shaped. speaker-1: To some degree, yes. There's certain people that when they stand, they can't bend. And there's just kind of straight up and their arms are like this. And trying to get them to bend, it hurts my back. Or it just it just doesn't look right. So that's when when you look at somebody like that, if especially if they don't have a putter that's long enough, you you want to fit them with a longer putter. So you so you do look at that, and then you also look at I think a lot of times people have a certain amount of waistband. If they have the opportunity to bend, if they're you know malleable people or that you know they they have mobility. Some people will bend more because they can see in the line they can see the line better down low. I mean Nicholas bent a lot. You look at other guys like Mikol Mickelson, he's kind of straight up and you know there's all kinds of different Yeah, you all all different kinds of, you know, people that set up differently. Like Corey Pavin used a thirty five inch putter. He wasn't particularly tall and Mick Valda used a thirty three inch butter because he had longer arms and he bent a little bit more at the waist, right? So you kinda see what what people ⁓ prefer or what they're pre predisposed to do. And you know, sometimes You you suggest, hey, bend more at the waist and they go, ⁓ that that feels a lot better and like, Yeah, it looks a lot lot better too Or they might bend too much at the legs and you go, Bend more at the hips, whatever. speaker-0: So when I was at the l last time I was on the putting green at a tour event, I was standing there with a guy named John Otega and Jake Knapp and Jake's caddy and ⁓ in New Orleans a couple years ago, I'm watching all the best putters in the world putt. And I was fascinated by how much back movement you could just look at the the two shoulder blades rocking just a lot. Way more than let's say, you know, 2014 with in in the David Tom's era, right? You just it it the people on the Nunez tour are not gonna do that. And this group of guys is a pretty athletic group that I play with. They're all were jocks. That's how we kind of know each other. And ⁓ from you know, from the old days, and and and and nobody's way, way out of shape. And everybody can move. And I'm just telling you, they're just not gonna stand there and they're not gonna do the tour rock of the of the rib cage and the shoulder blades like like, you know, Wyndham Clark might do. So you gotta factor that in when you're giving somebody a putting lesson. You know, just what they can do and maybe what they can't do and then also what they won't do. speaker-1: For sure. Yeah, like for instance, the other day I had Michael Block in here in the in the lab. Blocky? Yeah, Blocky. And he was actually party. Yeah. He was actually rocking a little too much. So his head was moving all over the place. So we got him to move a little bit less with the shoulders and I told him, Feel like you're not moving your sternum at all. And he moved it like the right amount, like what you saw out in New Orleans. And he was pretty pretty surprised when I filmed him like, Look, you felt like you didn't move your shoulders at all, right? He moves them a lot, but he's he's an amazing butter. Yeah, it's and going back to I don't know if it was in this show or last show, you see people do some different things like JT Post and I love watching that guy putt. His right arm's really high. I don't know if you can see this, it's like this, and he he kinda does this weird like that, but a lot of rocking in the shoulders, very vertical in his action. And it guy rolls it amazing. You know, so you y y when I when I look at somebody, I can see hey, they're predisposed to do whatever it might be. And I try not to move ⁓ too far away from that. You know, some guys really curve it in a lot. I don't know if David's stroke was like that or if I imagine it look kinda looked like on the follow through David Tom's that is. Look like it speaker-0: He he would he would take it in enough that he would loop it out and it would still come in slightly from the end, so speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So so you see all different kinds of patterns. Like when you look on the Sam Putt lab, the lines that people create, they're not right on top of each other. Jake's aren't. They're not right on top of each other. You know, so there's there's a lot that can be looked at. And if you were somebody that likes making everything just perfect, you could, you know, mess somebody up, I guess you could say, trying to get ⁓ to do something that they don't naturally do. So but when you're going back to you're talking about the the putty, right? The putty and like what what what they're ⁓ prone to do and what you probably want him to do instead. I think, you know, once you get to a tour level, obviously what they're doing is pretty good already. But sometimes, you know, just a little tweak this way or that way, ⁓ can make somebody put a lot better. I mean, like Scheffler is an example. And he he was ⁓ struggling pretty might mightily with the Cameron putter and working with his coach, ⁓ Randy Smith. And he just needed a new new new voice and a new putter. So he got the the the spider putter and Phil Kenyon in his ear and, you know, he's But it's a lot better, arguably, in the last two years than he did ⁓ you know, in the f earlier part of his career. So it just when you get to the the higher levels, it's it's you aren't necessarily, you know, just trashing everything and bringing in a bunch of new concepts. You're just kind of just, you know, maneuvering people a little bit. But with with the average golfer or somebody that's a new golfer, you there there's a lot more that can be done and you know, for their their ⁓ their betterment. speaker-0: So do you think like Jake looks a lot taller when he's playing golf than he is, right? speaker-1: Yeah, 'cause he's skinny. speaker-0: Yeah, because he's skinny and he's got long legs. So do you think that there is a mechanical advantage to being tall, like George Archer and Bob Charles were or ⁓ Howard Twitty, right? You know, thinking of people with good strokes. Because they can they can be fairly erect and bent over. Right. And put normal. Like they can have their arms, they don't have to have their arm. You know, Nicholas bent way over, and I think You know, it's interesting. How much of that did he get from George Lowe? Like if if you went and looked before George Lowe, gave him a putting lesson and gave him that putter and said, What I told you is not gonna work unless you putt with this putter. One day, I hope to beat Mr. Nicholas and ask him how all that went down. But Jack was probably really I mean, they used to list him at five eleven and a half. I don't think he ever got to five eleven once in his life, maybe on his tiptoes. So here's this guy and you know, in his early days was heavy set, you know. Not fat, just you know and and so he would bent way, way over, got his neck parallel to the ground, which I big Don Villevaso used to love. He thought that was the most important thing in putting 'cause your eyes could see it better. But anyway, he had to have his arms all bent to do that. Well, you you get some guy who's six foot three, even if they wanted to putt like Nicholas, their arms would be much longer. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: And and I and I've always thought there was some advantage to being tall to putting. Did have you seen that in your, you know, career of giving people, you know, high end putting lessons? speaker-1: I haven't really thought of it that way, but you know, when when you look at the best putters like in the last, I don't know, twenty years or so, Tiger, he's not exactly short. I think he's over six foot. Mickelson I don't I don't know that Mickelson could be considered a really good putter. He's a streaky putter. But if you look at ⁓ Lauren Roberts, he's you know, on the taller side. So there might be some credence to that observation, but of course there are some guys that aren't particularly tall that were good putters, especially in in in moments. speaker-0: Yep. Foot and a half. speaker-1: Like Rory McElroy is as much as people bag on his putting, they think like th they just remember the putters the putts, excuse me, that he misses that are big putts, right? But I think historically if you look at strokes gain, if you put any any weight into like what what how that ⁓ relates to somebody's putting prowess or lack thereof, he's he's usually in the top twenty, you know, and so there are some guys that aren't particularly tall that are that are pretty good putters, but it seems like today, if you look on tour, the number of guys that are under five ten on tour is you know, pretty small number, pr at least percentage wise. I mean just kind of like thinking through my head, you have McElroy, he's probably right around five nine or five ten. ⁓ a couple of the ⁓ Asian guys that are, you know, Siwoo Kim, he's not particularly tall. He's a pretty good putter. But you know, you're you know, nowadays you just see much more guys that are six foot plus that, you know, they could they putt well. So there might be something to that. I think one of the things that I've found the taller guys seem to create straighter lines than the shorter guys. And he had a thirty five inch putter and he was short, so it's probably gonna curve because he just it just had to, right? So ⁓ speaker-0: So in your lifetime, now we're we're still on the golfer and they they they they have to make a stroke, right? And the stroke is part of the golfer. The stroke has changed more than the swing, in my opinion. If you look at the eighty six masters, as much as the golf swing has changed since the the the To me, the two best masters, right? The the the seventy five masters where where Nicholas and Johnny Miller, my idol still is, and Tom Weisskoff, you know, all the way to the last putt. You look at those golf swings versus Rory winning, you know, last year, let's say, it's changed a bunch. But if you look at the butting strokes, it's changed more to me. So the greens were pretty fast at Augustine. 75 and 86, nothing like they are now. What do you think is the number one reason the stroke, the tour stroke has changed so much in that forty-five years or whatever it is? speaker-1: I would think that for the most part people that take speaker-0: Fifty fifty fifty-one year. Wait, what what kind of math am I doing here? Fifty-one years since the seventy-five math. speaker-1: Wow, how'd that happen? speaker-0: ⁓ no man, we we we get in there. But yeah. Why? What's the what's the factor? speaker-1: What why? I would say the most I would say for the most part, you know, in in putting instruction, there's been a pretty strong emphasis on not having too many moving parts, especially down here. So you don't see too many guys that are doing this. See Snedeker. You see Snedeker and a few guys that have combo where they're a little floaty. Jake's has a little bit of float going back, but even him, like he's he's higher on the side of this and that. So I went away from there. So I think there's been speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: you know, emphasis on taking away that. And then I think the greens are faster, you know, on average. So so I think in the old days people would need a little bit of that little boop to get the ball to the hole. So so I think just the agronomy has been partly responsible and also the focus on, you know, taking away, you know, extra movement, un and unnecessary movement. Those two are probably the the main factors for that. speaker-0: Now, what do you make of the, you know, I know Shamblee. He has some takes now, you know. And I I took him out in a No More Lives podcast on his on his track man take. But you know, he loves to put up the stat. I'm sure you've seen it, you know, because he's not the only person where, you know, it's actually like putting some certain way to look at it statistically, people are not making more putts now. Very slightly less than they made, I don't know, ten or twenty or thirty years ago. D do you you've been around a long time, do you think people putt th the tour players putt better now or not than twenty years ago? Let's not go back, you know, fifty. speaker-1: I think they do. And and here here's why. Yeah, I i I think that the because the greens are so much faster and you know the I don't know that they're putting the pins in any more difficult spots, but just having a faster putting green. I mean when I went out and played golf with you and Bill at Quaker Ridge, I'm I'm used to putting at Costa Mesa. We have like ten on the snip meter at most, right? And we were out there at Quaker Ridge and I was speaker-0: Seems like it to me. speaker-1: I was lost. And I'm usually a pretty good putter. Very good putter. Yes. So I'm I I it was a because I I had putted on greens that were that fast in the in the in the past, but it's been a long time since I've been a regular golfer. And you get on greens that are that s fast and they have some slope like that, it's difficult. It's super difficult. And like I I had an opportunity to putt little bit of Augusta on the par three course when when I caddied for Jake this last year. And The first couple putts I hit on the practice the little tiny practice screen that's right by the first T. The first one I just rifled right off the green thinking I was hitting it soft anyway. And so the second one, second one I even like toned it down and went softer and I hit the hit the edge of the hole and it lipped out and went off the green too. Right. So these guys are putting on like ice. So to be able to putt like statistically nearly the same, I think you have to have more skill. Just ⁓ speaker-0: And the and I think scenes have gotten slopier. What what what will pass for a great renovation or if you're perfect for instance, so about three miles over my right shoulder is Matterie Country Club. Was built in the you know teens or early twenties. Doesn't matter. That's a long time ago. That's a hundred years ago. So Seth Raynor, golf course with his New Orleans-born protege, African-American guy named Joe Bartholomew, built, designed, and built Matterie Country Club. Have no idea what kind of course it was then. By the time I played it when I was 19, 20 years old, it was a tree-lined, boring golf course with pretty flat greens. And then they did two successive Rainer restorations. W the first one didn't come out very good, but the second one, Brian Silva, unbelievable good job. They're so much slopier than the ones I putted on, you know, 40 years ago, the first time I played battery. And and and besides being literally double the speed, you know, double, double. But you know, the They just played the state am there. And ⁓ I don't know what tease they played from on Saturday. I know it was wet, which makes a course like that play a lot easier, but somebody shot 62. So to me, not only are golfers getting better, they're getting better at chipping a lot. I think the biggest change I've seen since the last group of kids that I was teaching that went to play college golf, and the current group I'm teaching to go play college golf. The the the short game is just elevated to a level of, you know, ridiculously better. And putting is is one of those things. They can putt the super slopey Pasa Tiempo type greens that, you know, when I when I first started playing out there years and years ago when I would come to the, you know, Monterey Peninsula every year to work with Ben Doyle, th those greens were baffling and they were probably eights or nines on the stem now. And I'm sure if you went there now it's eleven. And ⁓ I I just can't even imagine how how different that is. Now, do you think the putters adapted to the greens or and the golfers that were adapting to the greens or or the other way around? And and is that the sole reason the green speed that the putter weight just went to completely different and tell everybody w what that is. Like if you had a classic Arnold Palmer. Designed by, you know, from Wilson in the early 60s, or a George Lowe Wizard 600 that Nicholas putted with, or the ⁓ the bullseye that Johnny Miller putted with, or the ping answer that I don't know who was the first person that won with an answer, but I know Babe Hiskey, you know, won a few times with an answer, and Palmer even putted with an answer early on. George putters weighed what total? speaker-1: The the swing weight or excuse me, the head weights were just over 300 grams, maybe 315, and the overall weight was maybe 500 grams, like ⁓ shaft grip, the whole kit and caboodle. Now they're nowadays. Now they're weighing in 550 maybe, sometimes 535 to 5, even like if you get a heavy grip, like those big long grips, it could be 575 grams total. But I think the two things that ⁓ drive that are ⁓ the the MOI. component. So I think that people are starting to realize how important not three putting is. And so if you if you hit a putt off center with like one of these guys, can I bring that in? Boom. Like that. Yep. It's gonna it's gonna have more deflection and more of an energy. speaker-0: So the MOI for the folks that don't know, right? Moment of inertia. Basically, the gulf putting component of this is that when you hit a putt in the sweet spot of any putter, it's the putter's not gonna twist. But if you hit it off the sweet spot, it's gonna twist. And a low MOI putter, which would be what? Like a eighty eight ⁓ two or a bullseye or speaker-1: E even an an answer style putter. They're they're more MOI than than ⁓ you know, that's why that's why they came out. That's he wanted the weight dispersed from the speaker-0: trying to so so it was going toward that, but th the the these especially these, you know, potato mashers, you know, like the like the spiders, they're super high MOI putters, correct? speaker-1: Pretty high, yeah. There some some more so than others, but you know, higher than higher than the putter that I just put up there, the the Clay Long ⁓ answer style. speaker-0: Tw they twist less than off center hit. speaker-1: Yeah. So I think that's the number one reason that ⁓ that the modern players go into a heavier putter and you know the the you know the mallets. And I think the second thing is growing up these games speaker-0: Let me ⁓ but real quick now let me let me ask you this follow up here. Okay. So is the putter being heavier because probably the green speed or whatever, right? Is that influenced? Because nowadays, if you've got some talented little kid putting well, US kids putter, they're light as anything, right? And then they have their first little shoot up. I've got some kids that teach an English turn that ⁓ that gotta get their first full set of clubs, you know, regular clubs. They've had a spider for a couple of years, but let's just say they did let's just say they still had their little kids put their little US kids kids putter. US kids company, kids putter. And now they they go to buy their first putter. It's 350 to 375 gram head. That has something to do with the fact that your strokes look not so risky anymore, right? Because it's a little bit harder to be risky. With the heavy powder, yes or no? speaker-1: I think yes. So I have a couple of kids that are using lab putters because they wanted them. I wouldn't have necessarily said, ⁓ you want to have a lab putter for sure, but labs are they're they're popular right now. And so the you see kids come up with ⁓ spiders, labs, and who knows they'll probably start using the ping if ⁓ Gwendom Clark keeps lighting it up. But ⁓ so I think th th the other part that's I think ⁓ influential on the the the clubs being heavy or the putters rather being heavier. is the golfers are just bigger and stronger. So I think for a for a bigger, stronger golfer, a a a heavier putter feels just better. You know, so like I know one of the things that when we came up with our dale head, our first dale head, the standard ⁓ weight for like an answer putter like just around three hundred to three hundred and five grams. Some of the Scottsdale's were heavier, ⁓ but they they weren't available. And so when we had a three hundred and twenty five to three hundred and ⁓ thirty gram ⁓ putter head, especially if somebody wanted to make it shorter, it felt better. So so there are a lot of guys that want to have thirty-three or thirty-four inch putters. And so if they're using a three hundred and thirty gram head, it kind of feels light. So you give them a three hundred and fifty or three hundred and sixty gram head, it just feels better to them. So I think there's, you know, a number of reasons why the the putters have gotten heavier, starting with the MOI. ⁓ also, you know, the the ⁓ shorter putter length, it feels better if it's heavier, and then the golfers are bigger and stronger. So I think all those things drive why the putters are heavier these days. speaker-0: No doubt about it. So I think what we're gonna do is hold the other parts of the golfer, the first of these five elements for episode three. But you know, you got all the kind of things, just to give you a little folks a little what what what we're gonna talk about. You got not only the stroke, and we're gonna get way more into all the different historic strokes and stuff like that, but you've got the the thinking, right? Thinking, you know. Green reading, right? That that we we're gonna leave that for putting green, but like the thought of of green reading or where you're gonna start or where you're looking, this is all part of the stroke, you know. To me, correct me if you think I I I I've I've got this wrong. We're saying that the stroke has changed a lot because the greens got faster and slopier, and because the greens got faster, then the putters got heavier. And then people who knew new goof knew golfers, right? Because if you got some kid right now, Blades Brown is 19, 20 years ago was 2006. And so he wasn't getting no, you know, ping putter from, you know, the the PLD department when he was five years old. So probably his first regular putter when he was 10 or 11, 12 years old was a 350, you know, gram head putter. So he's not gonna make the same stroke that me and John made or Stan Stopper made that you know we're playing with the lighter putters. So and then I think like John also pointed out, you got to hit it a long way to play tournament golf these days. The golfers are bigger, so they they're they're in a different position at at at address. And all of this first little piece, not even counting the stroke that we're going to get into a lot. Next week and maybe get a little bit into the putter itself, I think has changed putting so dramatically that I think that if you went and got some really good players from the fifties and brought ⁓ brought ⁓ here in a time machine and just watched everybody putting on a on a practice putting green at a tour event, they they wouldn't even know what they were looking at. speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. You know, if you if you if you if you were to bring ⁓ Billy Casper in and watch the way he potted versus what they do today, he he kinda anchored against his leg. He did some some interesting things but yeah, he yeah, he had a pretty big belly. Well I'm working on ⁓ reducing mine myself, but Okay. speaker-0: I'm down ten. I'm down ten. So we got forty more to go. ⁓ man. So ⁓ man, we could talk all day, but we have a podcast for that. So putting is fun. It's just strolling along, folks, and we're hoping you're liking it as much as we love ⁓ presenting it to you. So speaker-1: Classic jar. You can find your center. Respect the three. Straight shooter. Train yourself. speaker-0: Low MOR. Boom. Thanks for listening, folks. See you next time. Next week on Putting is Fun. speaker-1: Your scotty or then you can't lab Your time rollin' puts will surely be fair put put putt It's just like it seems you can drift away and chill in a dream Put with your rose go soak up the sun free vitamin D is good for everyone I'm just spitting facts putting is fun