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The Superpowers and Value That Grandparents Bring To Children · Raising Daughters

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Hello friends, Dr. Tim Jordan back here with you with
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: a brand new podcast. Thank you so much as always
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: for stopping by and I have an interesting topic for
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  Speaker 1: you today. I'm going to talk to an author and
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: a therapist and his latest book is about grandparenting and
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: since my wife and I are the grandparents of five
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  Speaker 1: grandchildren and we were just in Chicago a for four
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  Speaker 1: days watching two of them while their parents had a
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  Speaker 1: little vacation. We got totally immersed in it once again.
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  Speaker 1: And I think sometimes we don't spend enough time talking
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  Speaker 1: about the value of grandparents and the role that they
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  Speaker 1: can play in your children's lives. So I have a
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  Speaker 1: guest today. His book is called The Art and Science
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  Speaker 1: of Parenting and Grandparenting. And his name is Kenneth Barish. No, Barish. Sorry, Barish. B-A-R-I-S-H.
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  Speaker 1: And I'll I'll mention the name of the book off
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  Speaker 1: and on as we talk about this, but thanks so
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  Speaker 1: much for joining us.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for inviting me, Tim. I'm happy to
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  Speaker 2: be here.
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  Speaker 1: And you have some grandchildren of your own, sounds like.
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  Speaker 2: I have two grandchildren of my own, yes. Two boys,
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  Speaker 2: 12 and 9, and we see them pretty often. It
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  Speaker 2: would be better if they lived right next door, but
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  Speaker 2: they live in Virginia and I'm here in New York,
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  Speaker 2: so we have to travel or they have to travel.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, we do for two of our other families as well.
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  Speaker 1: I think sometimes grandparents have superpowers that parents don't have.
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  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean we're better than them. It just means
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  Speaker 1: we have a unique position where we can be with
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  Speaker 1: their kids maybe in a different way. But do you
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  Speaker 1: agree with that?
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. We are insulated from the daily hassles, right? As parents,
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  Speaker 2: we have to get kids up. get them to school,
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  Speaker 2: make sure that we have all of these things that
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  Speaker 2: we have to do and get them to do. And
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  Speaker 2: it creates a certain amount of friction in every family.
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  Speaker 2: And we're one step removed from that. We have more
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  Speaker 2: freedom just to be a supportive, encouraging, enthusiastic person in
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  Speaker 2: their lives. And we can be helpful to their parents.
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  Speaker 2: So I think of grandparenting as a win-win-win it's a
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  Speaker 2: win for our grandchildren because they get us and they
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  Speaker 2: get this special time with us it's a win for
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  Speaker 2: the parents because we take some of the stress and
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  Speaker 2: pressure off of them which allows them to be more
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  Speaker 2: patient when they're with their children and of course it's
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  Speaker 2: a win for us because we get all this new
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  Speaker 2: joy and pleasure and meaning in our lives it's a
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  Speaker 2: win for everybody.
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  Speaker 1: I think it's so nice. One of the things I
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  Speaker 1: talk to parents about a lot, and I work with
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  Speaker 1: girls I counsel and all that a lot, is how
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  Speaker 1: stressed they are about their futures. And there's so much
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  Speaker 1: undue pressure today about having it all figured out and
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  Speaker 1: straight A's and top college and club teams and travel team,
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  Speaker 1: all those things. And I think from our position as grandparents,
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  Speaker 1: it's like, I don't care about your report card. I
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  Speaker 1: don't care where you go to college. It's not my
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  Speaker 1: My focus, and I don't want it to be their
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  Speaker 1: parents' focus either, but I think it's easier for us
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  Speaker 1: to sort of step back and not have that be
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  Speaker 1: at the top of the list. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: And again, that's a really good example of how it's
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  Speaker 2: a win for everybody. Because we get that time with
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  Speaker 2: our grandkids where they don't have that pressure and stress.
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  Speaker 2: Where I live, it's crazy. The stress on high school kids.
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  Speaker 2: Just what you said, there is pressure to excel in everything.
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  Speaker 2: You not only have to be an A student or
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  Speaker 2: an A plus student, you have to be a star athlete.
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  Speaker 2: You have to be a star musician. You have to
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  Speaker 2: be doing everything. And kids feel a kind of relentless pressure.
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  Speaker 2: Parents say, we don't like it this way, but we're
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  Speaker 2: all caught up in it. Every sports coach feels that
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  Speaker 2: his kids should devote themselves, dedicate themselves to the team.
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  Speaker 2: Every teacher feels that every kid should devote themselves to
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  Speaker 2: their class. And it just adds up to... Actually, it's
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  Speaker 2: a big cause of the rise of anxiety and depression
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  Speaker 2: in kids. You know, another way that grandparenting is good,
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  Speaker 2: there's research on this. Around the world, in communities where...
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  Speaker 2: grandparents spend more time with their grandkids, they are healthier
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  Speaker 2: and happier and probably live longer. Now, it's a little
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  Speaker 2: bit hard to figure out cause and effect there. But
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  Speaker 2: it's good for us.
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  Speaker 1: But if it makes them happier and it relieves stress
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  Speaker 1: in their parents, that would sort of make sense, right? Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I also think, like we've been talking about, I think
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  Speaker 1: so much of their lives and parents' lives because of
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  Speaker 1: it is so future-focused about everything is about, you do
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  Speaker 1: this because you want to get a college scholarship or
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  Speaker 1: you want to look at an application, all those kinds
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  Speaker 1: of things for us. I think as a grandparent, I
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  Speaker 1: think it's easier for us perhaps to be more in
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  Speaker 1: the moment. I think that's a really huge gift for kids.
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  Speaker 2: I agree. People sometimes ask me, what's the most important
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  Speaker 2: thing you've learned as a grandparent? And what's the first
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  Speaker 2: advice you would give new grandparents? And my advice is
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  Speaker 2: on both those questions, have fun, have fun with them.
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  Speaker 2: And we have that opportunity to just play with them,
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  Speaker 2: which again is good for them and good for us. It's,
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  Speaker 2: as you say, it's in the moment, but kids benefit
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  Speaker 2: so much from them. When parents and grandparents are able
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  Speaker 2: to play with enthusiasm with their kids from a very
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  Speaker 2: early age, I'm talking about patty cake, right? And then
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  Speaker 2: throwing a baseball or uh, uh, volleyball around, um, kids
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  Speaker 2: are happier and they develop social skills and self self-confidence.
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  Speaker 2: So fun and play is actually, um, an important nutrient
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  Speaker 2: for their emotional health.
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  Speaker 1: We're talking with Kenneth Barish, B-A-R-I-S-H. He's the author of
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  Speaker 1: a new book, The Art and Science of Parenting and Grandparenting.
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  Speaker 1: And today we're focusing mostly on the, on the grandparenting
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  Speaker 1: part of that, um, I also think you mentioned the
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  Speaker 1: value of play. I also think there's not enough time
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  Speaker 1: these days for kids to have self-directed play. You look
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  Speaker 1: like you're probably my age-ish. And I think in my day,
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  Speaker 1: we were out and about. Like we were never home.
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  Speaker 1: We were out in the street. Nobody was watching over
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  Speaker 1: us all the time. So we could guide our own play.
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  Speaker 1: We would pick teams. We'd figure out our arguments and
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  Speaker 1: who starts and all that stuff. And so I think
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  Speaker 1: there's a huge value that grandparents can bring perhaps because
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  Speaker 1: since maybe we can be more patient and in the moment,
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  Speaker 1: that we can follow their lead.
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  Speaker 2: Right. And we're not always teaching skills. We're not always
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  Speaker 2: trying to make sure they're learning this skill so that
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  Speaker 2: they will be able to make this team or do
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  Speaker 2: well in this tryout, and everything is organized. I think
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  Speaker 2: you're right about that. And certainly there has been a
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  Speaker 2: decline in just independent play for lots of reasons. Some
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  Speaker 2: of our colleagues make a very big deal out about
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  Speaker 2: this as an independent play, as an alternative to screens.
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  Speaker 2: And I think there's some truth in it. But I
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  Speaker 2: think the play that we do with our kids is
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  Speaker 2: even more important. Because every moment of playful interaction, it
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  Speaker 2: builds our relationship and it creates enjoyment And they also learn.
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  Speaker 2: They learn how to make accommodations. They learn how to
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  Speaker 2: make friends and be friends from the way we're playing
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  Speaker 2: with them. If I could go on a little bit
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  Speaker 2: more about this. Play, there's new neuroscience research in the
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  Speaker 2: last 20 years on this. It seems that all mammals play.
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  Speaker 2: And some neuroscientists feel that play is a basic emotional instinct.
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  Speaker 2: in mammals, and it evolved to help us learn the
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  Speaker 2: social skills that we need as adults. So it's something
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  Speaker 2: that all kids enjoy. My grandkids, when we'd go to
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  Speaker 2: their house or they would come here, the first thing
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  Speaker 2: they ask when they wake up in the morning, Ma, Pa,
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  Speaker 2: can you play with us? Let's play. And all kinds
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  Speaker 2: of play. So we don't recognize enough the value of it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. The other thing I think that maybe we have
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  Speaker 1: perhaps more time for than their parents, maybe, is just
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  Speaker 1: time to explore the world, be out in nature. I
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  Speaker 1: just had this thought in my head. Our oldest grandchild
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  Speaker 1: or grandson, when he was maybe four years old or so,
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  Speaker 1: I took him down to the garden and we were
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  Speaker 1: planting tomato plants And also some seats. And so I
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  Speaker 1: wanted to put, of course, put him in rows, because
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  Speaker 1: that's what you're supposed to do. And he, on the
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  Speaker 1: other hand, was putting him in circles. And my first
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  Speaker 1: instinct was to teach him, no, no, you're supposed to
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  Speaker 1: put those in a line. I thought, well, why? Let
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  Speaker 1: him put them in circles. And I think maybe that's
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  Speaker 1: probably true of a lot of grandparents is that it
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  Speaker 1: frees us up from having to do things the right
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  Speaker 1: way and let them sort of do it their way.
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  Speaker 2: And their way is creative. So maybe if he puts
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  Speaker 2: them in circles, I don't know a lot about planting,
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  Speaker 2: but maybe if he puts them in circles, he'll discover something.
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  Speaker 2: And when we're trying to teach them the right way,
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  Speaker 2: we may cut that off. Again, there's really good research
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  Speaker 2: on this. One thing that kids do from the moment
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  Speaker 2: they learn to talk until they go to school is
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  Speaker 2: they're constantly asking questions. Constantly. In one study, the kids
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  Speaker 2: would ask 60 questions an hour. And these questions are
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  Speaker 2: not like, can I do this? Or will you buy
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  Speaker 2: me this? It's, what is that? Why is this? How
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  Speaker 2: is this? There's this instinctive curiosity. What happens when they
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  Speaker 2: go to school is it gets unfortunately shut down because
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  Speaker 2: kids then are focused on getting the right answer rather
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  Speaker 2: than asking more questions. And again, that's what we can do.
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  Speaker 2: We can... Take an interest in their questions. I have
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  Speaker 2: a little motto, which is, as parents, and especially grandparents,
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  Speaker 2: our enthusiastic interest in their interest is the surest way
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  Speaker 2: to engage any young child, and actually even a teenager,
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  Speaker 2: in some form of meaningful dialogue or interaction. Take an
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  Speaker 2: interest in their interests. And if he wants to plant
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  Speaker 2: them in circles.
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  Speaker 1: yeah and now there's an expression i i talk to
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  Speaker 1: parents about a lot too and like my cam counselors
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  Speaker 1: because they're not grandparents but but you know they're with
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  Speaker 1: kids for a week or a weekend is when they
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  Speaker 1: want to ask those questions when they want to connect
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  Speaker 1: that you can in some way shape or form give
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  Speaker 1: them the the sense of take all the time you
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  Speaker 1: need yeah i'm not gonna i'm not gonna rush you
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  Speaker 1: like we got to get going it's more like that's
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  Speaker 1: okay we have to we have we have Time.
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  Speaker 2: That's why even very enthusiastic good teachers sometimes don't do
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  Speaker 2: that because they feel they don't have the time because
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  Speaker 2: they have a lesson that they have to teach. And
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  Speaker 2: there's not as much time for exploration, for questions and
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  Speaker 2: pursuing the questions.
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  Speaker 1: I think also there's a lot of value in stories.
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  Speaker 1: um we all my kids love to be read too
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  Speaker 1: they love i also like i think they like a
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  Speaker 1: lot um just you telling stories without a book i
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  Speaker 1: think they're both valuable but i think i think sometimes
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  Speaker 1: that's that's a role for grandparents is to is to
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  Speaker 1: uh read and or just tell.
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  Speaker 2: Stories it's a great role for grandparents and for parents
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  Speaker 2: when they have the time um so um I have
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  Speaker 2: two favorite examples of that. One's personal and one's a book.
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  Speaker 2: Kids love to hear stories about our lives. When my daughter,
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  Speaker 2: this goes back to being a parent, my daughter was
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  Speaker 2: about three years old. Her son was born. And it
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  Speaker 2: became time for the new baby to sleep in her room,
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  Speaker 2: which was now going to be the children's room in
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  Speaker 2: our apartment. And she said to me, I don't want
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  Speaker 2: my baby brother sleeping in my room. So I'm a
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  Speaker 2: child therapist. I said, okay, I got this. This is
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  Speaker 2: a piece of cake. And I said to her, well,
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  Speaker 2: I can understand your feelings. This used to be your room.
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  Speaker 2: Now it's the children's room. And mommy, daddy have to
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  Speaker 2: give so much time to the baby that we don't
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  Speaker 2: have as much time for you. And then my daughter
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  Speaker 2: said to me, in a way that she still speaks
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  Speaker 2: like this, she said, well, that's okay. But I still
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  Speaker 2: don't want my baby brother sleeping in my room. I
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  Speaker 2: didn't know what to say. So I said, let me
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  Speaker 2: tell you a story about when Daddy was a little boy.
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  Speaker 2: I slept in the same room as Uncle Bob and
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  Speaker 2: Uncle Steve, my brothers. And her eyes weren't like this.
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  Speaker 2: Before I told the story, she was listening with polite attention.
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  Speaker 2: When I told the story, she was listening with rapt attention.
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  Speaker 2: And then every night, tell me a story about when
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  Speaker 2: you were a little boy. Tell me a story about
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  Speaker 2: when you were a little boy. So really, that confirms
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  Speaker 2: what you were trying to say.
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  Speaker 1: And that's how we pass on family traditions and family
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  Speaker 1: values and things. It's one thing to talk about values.
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  Speaker 1: It's another thing to tell a story. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: There is one of my favorite books for children. I
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  Speaker 2: don't know if it's easily available anymore. It's a book
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  Speaker 2: called My Grandmother's Cookie Jar. And it's a story of
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  Speaker 2: a young girl whose Native American parents sit with her
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  Speaker 2: every night and eat cookies and tell a story. And
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  Speaker 2: they tell a story about their Indian people of long ago.
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  Speaker 2: And of course, this is so moving and meaningful to
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  Speaker 2: this young girl. And then the grandmother dies, and the
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  Speaker 2: grandfather consoles her, consoles the child, says, listen, when you
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  Speaker 2: are grown, and you have children of your own, you
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  Speaker 2: will tell grandma's stories. And that's how our Indian spirit
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  Speaker 2: and our Indian people will live on.
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  Speaker 1: That's beautiful.
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  Speaker 2: The girl says, I will tell grandma's stories.
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  Speaker 1: That's awesome.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Um, I, um, Oh, I just had a thought and
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  Speaker 1: I lost it. Oh, um, my, one of my daughter-in-laws for, um,
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  Speaker 1: my birthday, uh, last year gave me a, actually it
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: was for, it was for Christmas. She gave me a,
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  Speaker 1: I'm not sure what you would call it, like a
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  Speaker 1: subscription or whatever, but there's a thing called story worth. Yeah. It's, and, uh,
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  Speaker 1: So every week they send me like a prompt, like
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: describe your family home or what was your favorite memory
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  Speaker 1: or your biggest frustration growing up. And so you type
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  Speaker 1: this on the computer into their platform and it compiles
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  Speaker 1: like a storybook that eventually all of my kids and
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  Speaker 1: the grandkids can read.
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  Speaker 2: It's a great thing. And I'm a little disappointed in myself.
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  Speaker 2: So my wife did this. We were given the same gift.
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  Speaker 2: And my wife was diligent about it. And I found
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  Speaker 2: it hard to find the time because I was busy
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  Speaker 2: writing a book. But it was great. So my wife
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  Speaker 2: did this and they compiled the stories. Again, it's a
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  Speaker 2: meaningful project. It's a meaningful project for the grandkids. But
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  Speaker 2: it was also meaningful for my wife to do this.
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  Speaker 2: It's how... This goes back to the win, win, win.
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  Speaker 2: Everybody wins from this. We benefit from telling the stories.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So any of you who, it's called StoryWorth. I
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: have no investment in it or anything, but I thought
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: it was a great idea. At some point, at first
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I was busy and I don't know, I kept forgetting.
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  Speaker 1: But then now I found a way to sort of
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  Speaker 1: make myself every week write whatever the prompt is. Because
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  Speaker 1: I think it's a great gift for them.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's terrific. It's a great project.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: We're talking to Kenneth Barish. He's the author of a
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  Speaker 1: new book called The Art and Science of Parenting and Grandparenting.
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  Speaker 1: We're talking about mostly the grandparenting part. I think it
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  Speaker 1: was in your book I read about a concept you
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: call Undercover Agents for Kindness. Am I remembering correctly?
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  Speaker 2: It's not my concept, but it is a program, yes.
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  Speaker 2: Talk about that. It was a program that was developed
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: in school by a teacher. who was one of the
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  Speaker 2: crises we have in our country. We have a mental
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: health crisis in children and adolescents, but we also have
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  Speaker 2: a crisis of a lack of kindness. Do you know
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: that we use the word I in all the publications
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: that are published? We use the word I far more
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  Speaker 2: often than we used to, and we use the word
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  Speaker 2: we less. Even in song lyrics, the songs when you
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: and I were growing up were about we. And the
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  Speaker 2: songs of the 2000s are about I. And there are
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  Speaker 2: also more hostility in those songs. So what this teacher
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: did is he gave each student a task to do
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  Speaker 2: something kind to another student so that it wasn't some
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  Speaker 2: kind gesture. It was not something that they asked for.
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  Speaker 2: It was undercover. And it turns out that it grew.
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  Speaker 2: Kids liked receiving the kindness and kids liked giving the kindness.
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  Speaker 2: and kindness spread. So the people who received the kindness
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  Speaker 2: then gave more kindness, and that was just a remarkable change,
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  Speaker 2: that when we can promote kindness, and we should in
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  Speaker 2: our families, we should talk You know, as psychologists, we
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  Speaker 2: get caught up sometimes in talking about kids' feelings. We
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  Speaker 2: also have to talk about other people's feelings. And when
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: kids can take into account other people's feelings. So this
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  Speaker 2: program or programs like it just change the atmosphere of
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: a school. And if a kid comes in and feels
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: mean or is acting mean, the other kids are more
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  Speaker 2: likely to say, oh, she might have had a bad morning.
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  Speaker 2: Let me do something nice for her. And that changes
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  Speaker 2: the whole atmosphere of the school.
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  Speaker 1: I would bet too that just the act of looking
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: for other people's acts of kindness would cause them to
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  Speaker 1: see more of it and also to see it probably
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  Speaker 1: in places they wouldn't have normally seen it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. It can be a game changer. It's really a
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  Speaker 2: game changer. The There was an experiment years ago. Martin
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Seligman did an experiment with his college students. And he
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: gave them all a certain amount of money. And he
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: told half the students, just go out and spend this
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: on yourself. Go buy something you haven't had a chance
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: to buy. Go someplace you haven't had a chance.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: To go to.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: And he told the other half of the students, spend
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: this money on somebody else. Do something for somebody else.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: And then he had them keep a journal. over the
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: course of the next month. And everybody, their mood went
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: up immediately. But the kids who had spent the money
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: on somebody else, their mood kept going up. And if
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: you spent the money on yourself, you had a little
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: bit of happiness and you went back down to where
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: you were. But doing something for others had a more
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: lasting effect. And one of the students said to Seligman,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: This has changed my life. Nice.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: It's not like we can't use more of that in
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: the world today, right? And that's just in a grade school. Yeah.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Just in the culture.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. As I said, this research, they did a Google
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: search of all the publications that had been published in,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: I forget the exact years that this was done. It
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: was done by Robert Putnam. And there was... an increase
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: in the word I. So we are becoming more of
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: an I society rather than a we society.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I just bought a book yesterday. I haven't read it yet,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: but it's on my Kindle. It's called Lyrics. And it's
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: a story of every song that Paul McCartney ever wrote
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: and where the lyrics came from. Really?
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: That book I'm definitely going to buy. It's called Lyrics.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: It's only about two years old, right? I've got a
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: bunch of books in the Beatles because they're my favorite group.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: But this one I hadn't seen before because it's only
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: been out for a year or two, I think. So
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: I'm going to look for the eyes in there.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: So speaking of the Beatles, my daughter, the lullaby that
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: my daughter sang to our grandkids was Let It Be.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: There's some great lullabies. There's some great lullabies to sing
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: to your kids. Summertime by Gershwin is a lullaby. Sweet
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Baby James by James Taylor is a lullaby.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: I remember years ago, this thought just popped in my head.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: I was on a bus. I don't remember where I
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: was going. I saw this little boy who seemed very,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: quote unquote, hyper. He was running up and down the aisles.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: I could see the looks on people's faces like somebody
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: get control of that wild kid, right? And he was
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: there with his grandfather. And I'll never forget his grandfather
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: had sat down and he just let him run for
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: a little bit, didn't scold him. And after a little while,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: the boy sort of walked over and he sat down
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: by his grandfather. He was able to sit quietly for
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: the rest of the bus ride. There's something about, I think,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: grandparents' presence that sometimes is just their presence alone is
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: a huge gift.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: And it's a calm presence. Mm-hmm. And because the parents,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: even if they wanted to do that, would be too
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: anxious and stressed. Is this boy going to get into trouble?
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: What are other people going to think? They're anxious. And
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: even if they try to do it, their anxiety is communicated.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: But we can be a calm presence. This is like
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: the most tried and true role for grandparents, to just
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: sit with our kids, play quiet games. play chess and checkers,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: just be with them.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: And I think that's true. I totally agree with every kid,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: with every grandparent. And I also think a lot about
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: kids who don't have a dad in their life or
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: a mom in their life, a parent who's not present
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: because a divorce or because they're working all the time
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: or they travel a lot. And so having grandparents around
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: to sort of fill in those gaps to just be
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: with them in that kind of way is a huge gift.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: And, you know, I think we don't pay enough attention
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: to how our kids look up to us. Kids really
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: have a look up to us in a way that
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: we don't remember. We are like gods to them, right?
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: And being in the presence of someone they really admire
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: is just so calming for them, is so good for them,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: and also helps them find that meaning and purpose, which
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: is another thing that you you write about or talk about.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: We're talking to Kenneth Barish, B-A-R-I-S-H. His new book is
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: called The Art and Science of Parenting and Grandparenting. Before
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: we close, any other thoughts or observations about grandparents you
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: think would be good to touch on?
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have one.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Well, I have a couple.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: When we have discussions with them, we have to spend
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: more time listening than we usually do.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Listening to their concerns. We spend too much time arguing
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: with kids, especially parents do. But a better way to
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: have a discussion is first to say, so what are
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: you concerned about? Let me hear your concerns. And let
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: me tell you my concerns. This is a much better
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: way to have a conversation with kids. They feel they
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: know we've listened to them. Now they're willing to listen
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: to us. And the second point I would make is
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: it's so important to tell them that we're proud of them.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Pride is different than ordinary praise. We're not praising kids
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: for getting an A or scoring a goal. When we're
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: proud of them, it's more about character. It's more about
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: who they are. So it's not about scoring a goal.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: It's about the effort that they put in It's not
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: about the grade they got. It's about the effort. And
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: it's about kindness. So when we see them acting with kindness,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: we should let them know that we're proud of them.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: There's just something different, deeper, about the feeling that someone
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: is proud of us. So if I had to give
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: a final bit of advice to parents and grandparents, let
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: your children know that you're proud of them. for every
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: kindness and effort that they put in.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's really beautiful. I think it's because
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: what it says is I see you. I mean, I
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: get you. I see you. I love you. I love
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: who you are. That's why it's a lot deeper than
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: great job on scoring that goal or blocking the shot
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: or whatever. It's not bad to say that, but it's like,
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: especially in our role as a different kind of, support
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: i think they i think they really value us and
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: what grandparents bring so if you hear it from that
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: person i think it's even probably more meaningful.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah because they look up to us right yeah it
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: all fits together because they look up to us our
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: pride is um uh is one of the most important
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: the words i'm proud of you are some of the
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: most important we can say.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: So how can my listeners find you and your book.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Well I can find the book on Amazon I think
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: it's the place where everybody goes I wish I could
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: say go to your local bookstore but I don't know
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: if the local bookstore is going to carry it they
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: can find me on my website which is kennethbarish.com and
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: I'd be happy to hear from any listeners send me
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: a note through the website.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: You know it's interesting and a little disturbing we closed
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: down our office recently like a week ago actually And
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: so I was getting rid of books, which is really
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: difficult for me to do because I love to read.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: I love books. And we called Goodwill and we said,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: I have some books and we have a couple of bookshelves.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: And they said, we won't take the bookshelves. And I said, well,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: why not? I said, they're actually in good shape. They said,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: people don't read anymore. And I went, oh, my God,
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: what are we coming to?
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: This is really, Tim, this is such a disturbing crisis.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Not only are they not reading, they're not writing anymore.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: And there are articles almost every day that students are
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: having AI write for them. And you know as a writer,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: and I know as a writer, when you write, you're thinking.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: And somebody else writes it for you. But when you're writing, well,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: did I say that exactly the right way? Is that
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: really what I meant? Or wait, maybe I should consider this.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: Those are things that go into writing. That's really thinking.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: Kids are losing it. And kids are not reading as much.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: High school English teachers are signing fewer books, if any.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: And I think this is all because of screens. They've
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: lost the attention span. They can look at a screen.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: They think they're learning something, but they're scrolling on a screen.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: My son is a college professor. I told him that
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: my book on political dialogue, I thought maybe college teachers
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: would be interested in assigning this book. And he said
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: to me, Dad, I've got bad news for you. College
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: students no longer read books.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, God.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: And I was just aghast, aghast. But they're in college.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: But yes, reading and writing are declining. And I can't
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: see how it's not going to be very detrimental.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Well, hopefully people will read your book, The Art and
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Science of Parenting and Grandparenting. Thank you so much for
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: for coming on Raising Daughters. I really appreciate everything that
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: you offered today and also what you offered in your book.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: So thanks so much for being on.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me, Tim.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Well, that was an interesting conversation. I hope you enjoyed it.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: And I hope that your kids get a chance to
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: enjoy their grandparents. With the way that parents move about
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: with their jobs and things these days, I think sometimes
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: it's harder, like two of our three kids live in
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: different cities. So it's not as easy to connect with grandkids.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Hopefully you can make the effort and or they can
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: make the effort to connect, be together as best you can,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: because that relationship with a grandma or a grandpa is special.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: It just is for all the reasons we laid out
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: on this podcast. I will put Kenneth Barish's email address
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: on my show notes. So just go to my website, www.drtimjordan.com.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: click on the podcast page, and you'll see. Hello, friends. Dr.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Tim Jordan back here with you with a brand new podcast.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, as always, for stopping by. And
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: I have an interesting topic for you today. I'm going
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: to talk to an author and a therapist, and his
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: latest book is about grandparenting. And since my wife and
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: I are the grandparents of five grandchildren, and we were
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: just in Chicago for four days watching two of them
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: while their parents had a little vacation. We got totally
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: immersed in it once again. And I think sometimes we
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: don't spend enough time talking about the value of grandparents
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: and the role that they can play in your children's lives.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: So I have a guest today. His book is called
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: The Art and Science of Parenting and Grandparenting. And his
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: name is Kenneth Barish. No, Barish. Sorry, Barish. B-A-R-I-S-H. I'll
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: mention the name of the book often on as we
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: talk about this, but thanks so much for joining us.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for inviting me, Tim. I'm happy to
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: be here.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: And you have some grandchildren of your own, sounds like.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: I have two grandchildren of my own, yes. Two boys,
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: 12 and 9. And we see them pretty often. It
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: would be better if they lived right next door, but...
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: But they live in Virginia and I'm here in New York,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: so we have to travel or they have to travel.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we do for two of our other families as well.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes grandparents have superpowers that parents don't have.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean we're better than them. It just means
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: we have a unique position where we can be with
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: their kids maybe in a different way. But do you
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: agree with that? Absolutely.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: We are insulated from the daily hassles. right? As parents,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: we have to get kids up, get them to school,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: make sure that we have all of these things that
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: we have to do and get them to do. And
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: it creates a certain amount of friction in every family.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: And we're one step removed from that. We have more
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: freedom just to be a supportive, encouraging, enthusiastic person in
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: their lives. And we can be helpful to their parents.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: So I think of grandparenting as a win-win-win. It's a
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: win for our grandchildren because they get us and they
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: get this special time with us. It's a win for
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: the parents because we take some of the stress and
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: pressure off of them, which allows them to be more
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: patient when they're with their children. And of course it's
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: a win for us because we get all this new
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: joy and pleasure and meaning in our lives. It's a
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: win for everybody.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: I think it's so nice. One of the things I
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: talk to parents about a lot, and I work with
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: the girls I counsel and all that a lot, is
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: how stressed they are about their futures. And there's so
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: much undue pressure today about having it all figured out
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: and straight A's and top college and club teams and
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: travel teams, all those things. And I think from our
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: position as grandparents, it's like, I don't care about your
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: report cards. I don't care where you go to college.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: It's not my focus. I don't want it to be
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: their parents' focus either. But I think it's easier for
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: us to sort of step back and not have that
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: be at the top of the list.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. And again, that's a really good example of how
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: it's a win for everybody. Because we get that time
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: with our grandkids where they don't have that pressure and stress.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Where I live, it's crazy. The stress on high school kids...
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Just what you said, there is pressure to excel in everything.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: You not only have to be an A student or
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: an A plus student, you have to be a star athlete.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: You have to be a star musician. You have to
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: be doing everything. And kids feel a kind of relentless pressure.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Parents say, we don't like it this way, but we're
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: all caught up in it. Every sports coach feels that
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: his kids should devote themselves, dedicate themselves to the team.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Every teacher feels that every kid should devote themselves to
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: their class. And it just adds up to... Actually, it's
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: a big cause of the rise of anxiety and depression
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: in kids. You know, another way that grandparenting is good,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: there's research on this around the world in communities where...
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: grandparents spend more time with their grandkids, they are healthier
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: and happier and probably live longer. Now, it's a little
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: bit hard to figure out cause and effect there. But
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: it's good for us.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: But if it makes them happier and it relieves stress
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: in their parents, that would sort of make sense, right? Yeah.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: I also think, like we've been talking about, I think
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: so much of their lives and parents' lives because of
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: it is so future-focused about everything is about, you do
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: this because you want to get a college scholarship or
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: you want to look at an application, all those kinds
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: of things for us. I think as a grandparent, I
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: think it's easier for us perhaps to be more in
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: the moment. I think that's a really huge gift for kids.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: I agree. People sometimes ask me, what's the most important
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: thing you've learned as a grandparent? And what's the first
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: advice you would give new grandparents? And my advice is
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: on both those questions, have fun, have fun with them.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: And we have that opportunity to just play with them,
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: which again is good for them and good for us. It's,
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: as you say, it's in the moment, but kids benefit
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: so much from them. When parents and grandparents are able
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: to play with enthusiasm with their kids from a very
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: early age, I'm talking about patty cake, right? And then
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: throwing a baseball or uh, uh, volleyball around, um, kids
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: are happier and they develop social skills and self, self-confidence.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: So fun and play is actually, um, an important nutrient
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: for their emotional health.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: We're talking with Kenneth Barish, B-A-R-I-S-H. He's the author of
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: a new book, The Art and Science of Parenting and Grandparenting.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: And today we're focusing mostly on the, on the grandparenting
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: part of that, um, I also think you mentioned the
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: value of play. I also think there's not enough time
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: these days for kids to have self-directed play. You look
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: like you're probably my age-ish, and I think in my day,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: we were out and about like we were never home.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: We were out in the street. Nobody was watching over
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: us all the time, so we could guide our own play.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: We would pick teams. We'd figure out our arguments and
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: who starts and all that stuff. And so I think
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: there's a huge value that grandparents can bring, perhaps because
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: since maybe we can be more patient and in the moment,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: that we can follow their lead.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Right. And we're not always teaching skills. We're not always
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: trying to make sure. they're learning this skill so that
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: they will be able to make this team and, uh, or, uh,
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: have do well in this tryout, which is, and everything
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: is organized. I think you're right about that. Um, and,
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: and it, it certainly, there has been a decline in
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: just independent play for, for lots of reasons. Uh, um, some,
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: some of our colleagues make a very big deal out
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: about this, um, as an all, uh, independent play as, um,
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: an alternative to screens. And I think there's some truth
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: in it. But I think the play that we do
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: with our kids is even more important. Because every moment
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: of playful interaction, it builds our relationship, and it creates enjoyment.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: And they also learn. They learn how to make accommodations.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: They learn how to make friends and be friends from
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: the way we're playing with them. If I could go
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: on a little bit more about this play, there's new
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: neuroscience research in the last 20 years on this. It
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: seems that all mammals play. And some neuroscientists feel that
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: play is a basic emotional instinct in mammals. And it
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: evolved to help us learn the social skills that we
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: need as adults. And so it's something that all kids enjoy.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: My grandkids, when we'd go to their house or they
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: would come here, the first thing they ask when they
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: wake up in the morning, Ma, Pa, can you play
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: with us? Let's play. And all kinds of play. So
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: we don't recognize enough the value of it.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: The other thing I think that maybe we have perhaps
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: more time for than their parents do Um, maybe it's
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: just a time to explore the world, be out in nature. I,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: I just had this thought in my head, my oldest
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: grand child or grandson, when he was maybe four years
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: old or so, I took him down to the garden
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: and we were planting, uh, tomato plants and, and also
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: some seeds. And so I wanted to put, of course,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: put them in rows because that's what you're supposed to do.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: And he, on the other hand was putting it in circles.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: And my first instinct was to teach him, no, no,
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: you're supposed to put those in a line. I thought, well, why?
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Let him put them in circles. And I think maybe
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: that's probably true of a lot of grandparents is that
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: it frees us up from having to do things the
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: right way and let them sort of do it their way.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: And their way is creative. So maybe if he puts
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: them in circles, I don't know a lot about planting,
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: but maybe if he puts them in circles, he'll discover something.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: And when we when we're trying to teach them the
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: right way, we may cut that off. Again, there's really
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: good research on this. One thing that kids do from
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: the moment they learn to talk until they go to
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: school is they're constantly asking questions. Constantly. In one study,
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: the kids would ask 60 questions an hour. And these
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: questions are not like, can I do this? Or will
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: you buy me this? It's what is that? Why is this?
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: How is this? There's this instinctive curiosity. What happens when
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: they go to school is it gets unfortunately shut down
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: because kids then are focused on getting the right answer
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: rather than asking more questions. And again, that's what we
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: can do. We can take an interest in their questions.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: I have a little motto, which is, as parents, and
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: especially grandparents, our enthusiastic interest in their interest is the
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: surest way to engage any young child, and actually even
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: a teenager, in some form of meaningful dialogue or interaction.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Take an interest in their interests. And if he wants
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: to plant them in circles, he can plant them in circles.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And there's an expression I talk to parents about
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: a lot too, like my cam counselors, because they're not grandparents,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: but they're with kids for a week or a weekend,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: is when they want to ask those questions, when they
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: want to connect, that you can in some way, shape,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: or form, give them the sense of take all the
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: time you need. I'm not going to rush you like
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: we got to get going. It's more like, that's okay.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: We have time. We have time.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: That's why even very enthusiastic good teachers sometimes don't do
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: that because they feel they don't have the time because
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: they have a lesson that they have to teach. And
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: there's not as much time for exploration, for questions and
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: pursuing the questions.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: I think also there's a lot of value in stories.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: My kids love to be read too. They love I
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: also like, I think they like a lot just you
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: telling stories without a book. I think they're both valuable.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: But I think sometimes that's a role for grandparents is
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: to read and or just tell stories.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: It's a great role for grandparents and for parents when
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: they have the time. So I have two favorite examples
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: of that. One's personal and one's a book. Kids love
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: to hear stories about our lives. When my daughter, this
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: goes back to being a parent, my daughter was about
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: three years old. Her son was born. And it became
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: time for the new baby to sleep in her room,
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: which was now going to be the children's room in
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: our apartment. And she said to me, I don't want
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: my baby brother sleeping in my room. So I'm a
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: child therapist. I said, okay, I got this. This is
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: a piece of cake. And I said to her, well,
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: I can understand your feelings. This used to be your room.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: Now it's the children's room. And mommy, daddy have to
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: give so much time to the baby that we don't
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: have as much time for you. And then my daughter
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: said to me, in a way that she still speaks
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: like this, she said, well, that's okay. But I still
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: don't want my baby brother sleeping in my room. I
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: didn't know what to say. So I said, let me
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: tell you a story about when Daddy was a little boy.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: I slept in the same room as Uncle Bob and
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: Uncle Steve, my brothers. And her eyes weren't like this.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: Before I told the story, she was listening with polite attention.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: When I told the story, she was listening with rapt attention.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: attention and then every night tell me a story about
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: when you were a little boy tell me a story
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: about when you were a little boy so really that
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: is confirms what you were trying to say.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: And that's how we pass on family traditions and family
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: values and things it's one thing to talk about values
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: it's another thing to tell a story.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: There is a one of my favorite books for children
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it's easily available anymore. It's a
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: book called My Grandmother's Cookie Jar. And it's a story
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: of a young girl whose Native American parents sit with
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: her every night and eat cookies and tell a story.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: And they tell a story about their Indian people of
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: long ago. And of course, this is so moving and
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: meaningful to this young girl. And then the grandmother dies,
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: and the grandfather consoles her, consoles the child, says, listen,
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: when you are grown, and you have children of your own,
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: you will tell grandma's stories. And that's how our Indian
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: spirit and our Indian people will live on.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: That's beautiful.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: The girl says, I will tell grandma's stories.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: Ha ha ha. That's awesome. One of my daughter-in-laws for
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: my birthday last year gave me a... Actually, it was
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: for Christmas. She gave me a... I'm not sure what
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: you would call it, like a subscription or whatever, but
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: there's a thing called StoryWorth.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: And so every week they send me like a prompt,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: like describe your family home or what was your favorite
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: memory or your biggest frustration growing up. And so you
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: type this into... on the computer into their platform. And
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: then it compiles like a storybook that eventually all of
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: my kids and the grandkids can read.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: It's a it's a great thing. And, uh, a, I'm
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: a little disappointed in myself. So my wife did this.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: We had, we were given the same gift and my
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: wife was diligent about it. And I found it hard
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: to find the time because I was busy writing a book. Um,
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: But it was great. So my wife did this and
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: they compiled the stories. Again, it's a meaningful project. It's
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: a meaningful project for the grandkids, but it was also
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: meaningful for my wife to do this. This goes back
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: to the win-win-win. Everybody wins from this. We benefit from
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: telling the stories. Yeah.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: So any of you who... It's called StoryWorth. I have
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: no investment in it or anything, but I thought it
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: was a great idea. At some point, at first I
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: was busy and I don't know, I kept forgetting, but
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: then now I've found a way to sort of make
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: myself every week write whatever the prompt is. I think
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: it's a great gift for them.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: I think it's terrific. It's a great project.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: We're talking to Kenneth Barish. He's the author of a
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: new book called The Art and Science of Parenting and Grandparenting.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: We're talking about mostly the grandparenting part. I think it
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: was in your book I read about a concept you
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: call Undercover Agents for Kindness. Am I remembering correctly?
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: It's not my concept, but it is a program, yes.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: Talk about that. It was a program that was developed
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: in school by a teacher who was one of the
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: crises we have in our country. We have a mental
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: health crisis in children and adolescents, but we also have
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: a crisis of a lack of kindness. Do you know
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: that we use the word I in all the publications
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: that are published? We use the word I far more
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: often than we used to. And we use the word
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: we less. Even in song lyrics. The songs when you
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: and I were growing up were about we. And the
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: songs of the 2000s are about I. And there are
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: also more hostility in those songs. So what this teacher
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: did is he gave each student a task to do
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: something kind to another student. So that it wasn't some
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: kind gesture. It was not something that they asked for.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: It was undercover. And it turns out that it grew.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: Kids liked receiving the kindness. And kids liked giving the kindness.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: And kindness spread. So the people who received the kindness
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: then gave more kindness. And that was just a remarkable change.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: That when we can promote kindness, and we should in
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: our families, we should talk. You know, as psychologists, we
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: get caught up sometimes in talking about kids' feelings. We
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: also have to talk about other people's feelings. And when
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: kids can take into account other people's feelings. So this
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: program or programs like it just change the atmosphere of
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: a school. And if a kid comes in and feels
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: mean or is acting mean, the other kids are more
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: likely to say, oh, she might have had a bad morning.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: Let me do something nice for her. And that changes
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: the whole atmosphere of the school.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: I would bet, too, that just the act of looking
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: for other people's acts of kindness would cause them to
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: see more of it and also to see it probably
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: in places they wouldn't have normally seen it.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It can be a game changer.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: It's really a game changer. There was an experiment years ago.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: Martin Seligman did an experiment with his college students. And
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: he gave them all a certain amount of money. And
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: he told half the students, just go out and spend
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: this on yourself. Go buy something you haven't had a
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: chance to buy. Go someplace you haven't had a chance
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: to go to. And he told the other half of
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: the students, spend this money on somebody else. Do something
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: for somebody else. And then he had them keep a
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: journal over the course of the next month. And everybody...
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: Their mood went up immediately. It felt a little better.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: But the kids who had spent the money on somebody else,
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: their mood kept going up. And if you spent the
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: money on yourself, you had a little bit of happiness
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: and you went back down to where you were. But
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: doing something for others had a more lasting effect. And
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: one of the students said to Seligman, this has changed
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: my life.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: Hmm.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: It's not like we can't use more of that in
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: the world today, right? Not just in a grade school,
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: but just in the culture.
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. As I said, this research, they did a Google
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: search of all the publications that had been published in,
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: I forget the exact years that this was done. It
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: was done by Robert Putnam. And there was an increase
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: in the word I.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: Hmm.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: So we are becoming more of an I society rather
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: than a we society.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: I just bought a book yesterday. I haven't read it yet,
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: but it's on my Kindle. It's called Lyrics. And it's
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: a story of every song that Paul McCartney ever wrote
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: and where the lyrics came from. Really?
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: That book I'm definitely going to buy.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: It's called Lyrics. It's only about two years old. I've
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: got a bunch of books in the Beatles because they're
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: my favorite group, but This one I hadn't seen before
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: because it's only been out for a year or two,
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: I think. So I'm going to look for the eyes
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: in there.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: So speaking of the Beatles, my daughter, the lullaby that
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: my daughter sang to our grandkids was Let It Be.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: There's some great lullabies. There's some great lullabies to sing
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: to your kids. Summertime. by Gershwin is a lullaby. Sweet
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Baby James by James Taylor is a lullaby.
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember years ago, this thought just popped in
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: my head. I was on a bus. I don't remember
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: where I was going. And I saw this little boy
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: who seemed very, quote unquote, hyper. He was running up
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: and down the aisles. And I could see the looks
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: on people's faces, like somebody get control of that wild kid, right?
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: And he was there with his grandfather. And I'll never
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: forget his grandfather had sat down and he just let
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: him run for a little bit, didn't scold him. And
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: after a little while, the boy sort of walked over
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: and he sat down by his grandfather. He was able
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: to sit quietly for the rest of the bus ride.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: There's something about, I think, grandparents' presence that sometimes is
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: just their presence alone is a huge gift.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: And it's a calm presence. Mm-hmm. And because the parents,
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: even if they wanted to do that, would be too
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: anxious and stressed. Is this boy going to get into trouble?
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: What are other people going to think? They're anxious. And
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: even if they try to do it, their anxiety is communicated.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: But we can be a calm presence. This is like
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: the most tried and true role for grandparents, to just
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: sit with our kids, play quiet games. play chess and checkers,
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: just be with them.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: And I think that's true. I totally agree with every kid,
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: with every grandparent. And I also think a lot about
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: kids who don't have a dad in their life or
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: a mom in their life, a parent who's not present
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: because a divorce or because they're working all the time
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: or they travel a lot. And so having grandparents around
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: to sort of fill in those gaps to just be
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: with them in that kind of way is a huge gift.
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: And, you know, I think we don't pay enough attention
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: to how our kids look up to us. Kids really
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: have a look up to us in a way that
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: we don't remember. We are like gods to them, right?
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: And being in the presence of someone they really admire
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: is just so calming for them, is so good for them,
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: and also helps them find that meaning and purpose, which
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: is another thing that you you write about or talk about.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: We're talking to Kenneth Barish, B-A-R-I-S-H. His new book is
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: called The Art and Science of Parenting and Grandparenting. Before
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: we close, any other thoughts or observations about grandparents you
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: think would be good to touch on?
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have one.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: Well, I have a couple.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: When we have discussions with them, we have to spend
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: more time listening than we usually do. Listening to their concerns.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: We spend too much time arguing with kids, especially parents do.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: But a better way to have a discussion is first
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: to say, so what are you concerned about? Let me
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: hear your concerns. And let me tell you my concerns.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: This is a much better way to have a conversation
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: with kids. They know we've listened to them, and now
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: they're willing to listen to us. And the second point
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: I would make is, It's so important to tell them
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: that we're proud of them. Pride is different than ordinary praise.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: We're not praising kids for getting an A or scoring
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: a goal. When we're proud of them, it's more about character.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: It's more about who they are. So it's not about
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: scoring a goal. It's about the effort that they put in.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: It's not about the grade they got. It's about the effort,
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: and it's about kindness. So when we see them acting
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: with kindness, we should let them know that we're proud
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: of them. There's just something different, deeper, about the feeling
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: that someone is proud of us. So if I had
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: to give a final bit of advice to parents and grandparents,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: let your children know that you're proud of them for
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: every kindness and effort that they put.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's really beautiful. I think it's because
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: what it says is I see you. I mean, I
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: get you. I see you. I love you. I love
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: who you are. That's why it's a lot deeper than
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: great job on scoring that goal or blocking the shot
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: or whatever. It's not bad to say that, but it's like,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: especially in our role as a different kind of support,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: I think they really value us. and what grandparents bring.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: So if you hear it from that person, I think
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: it's even probably more meaningful.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they look up to us, right? It all
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: fits together because they look up to us. Our pride
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: is one of the most important. The words I'm proud
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: of you are some of the most important we can say.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: So how can my listeners find you and your book?
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: Well I can find the book on Amazon I think
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: it's the place where everybody goes I wish I could
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: say go to your local bookstore but I don't know
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: if the local bookstore is going to carry it they
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: can find me on my website which is kennethbarish.com and
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: I'd be happy to hear from any listeners send me
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: a note through the website.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: You know it's interesting and a little disturbing we closed
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: down our office recently like a week ago actually And
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: so I was getting rid of books, which is really
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: difficult for me to do because I love to read.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: I love books. And we called Goodwill and we said,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: I have some books and we have a couple of bookshelves.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: And they said, we won't take the bookshelves. And I said, well,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: why not? I said, they're actually in good shape. They said,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: people don't read anymore. And I went, oh, my God,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: what are we coming to?
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: This is really, Tim, this is such a disturbing crisis.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: Not only are they not reading, they're not writing. And
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: it articles almost every day that students are having AI
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: write for them. And you know as a writer, and
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: I know as a writer, when you write, you're thinking.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: And somebody else writes it for you. But when you're writing, well,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: did I say that exactly the right way? Is that
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: really what I meant? Or wait, maybe I should consider this.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: Those are things that go into writing. That's really thinking.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: Kids are losing it. And kids are not reading as much.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: High school English teachers are signing fewer books, if any.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: And I think this is all because of screens. They've
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: lost the attention span. They can look at a screen.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: They think they're learning something, but they're scrolling on a screen.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: My son is a college professor. I told him that
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: my book on political dialogue, I thought maybe college teachers
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: would be interested in assigning this book. And he said
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: to me, Dad, I've got bad news for you. College
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: students no longer read books.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: Oh, God.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: And I was just aghast, aghast. But they're in college.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: But yes, reading and writing are declining. And I can't
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: see how it's not going to be very detrimental.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: Well, hopefully people will read your book, The Art and
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: Science of Parenting and Grandparenting. Thank you so much for
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: for coming on Raising Daughters. I really appreciate everything that
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: you offered today and also what you offered in your book.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: So thanks so much for being on.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me, Tim.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: Well, that was an interesting conversation. I hope you enjoyed it.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: And I hope that your kids get a chance to
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: enjoy their grandparents. With the way that parents move about
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: with their jobs and things these days, I think sometimes
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: it's harder. Like two of our three kids live in
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: different cities, so it's not as easy to connect with grandkids.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: Hopefully you can make the effort and or they can
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: make the effort to connect, be together as best you
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: can because that relationship with a grandma or a grandpa
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: is special. It just is for all the reasons we
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: laid out on this podcast. I will put Kenneth Barish's
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: email address on my show notes, so just go to
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: my website www.drtimjordan.com Click on the podcast page and you'll
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: see the show notes. And in the show notes, there'll
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: be information about how to get a hold of Kenneth
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: Barish and also the name of his book. Thank you
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: so much for being here every week. I'm getting close.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: I think I'm only four podcasts away from number 400.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: I think this was 396. And so I appreciate the
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: people who have stuck with us for 396 episodes today.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: And I appreciate you passing these on to people who
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: you think might like them. I'll be back here as
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: always in a week with a brand new topic and
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: a brand new podcast. Thank you so much for stopping by.