Latest / UK Column Radio / The Shocking Venezuela Kidnapping: Geopolitics, Minerals & The Future of Latin America | Fernando Munoz | Silk and Steel

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The Shocking Venezuela Kidnapping: Geopolitics, Minerals & The Future of Latin America | Fernando Munoz | Silk and Steel · UK Column Radio

0:01
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Silk and Steel
0:04
Podcast. I'm your host, Carl Zam.
0:07
Today I have a very special guest, my friend Fernando from
0:11
China. Fernando is a Colombian
0:14
entrepreneur and commentator on world politics and I invited
0:21
Fernando today because I saw he was featured recently on China
0:27
Daily and I believe CGTN. Yes, Fernando, yes.
0:32
CGTN, China Daily and others. Yeah, and on the current crisis
0:38
unfolding in Venezuela. So I my pleasure to introduce
0:43
you Fernando to my audience. But maybe you should do a brief
0:47
intro of yourself because I think you do a better justice
0:50
than than me. Maybe briefly tell people who
0:54
you are and what do you do actually?
0:57
Well, first of all, thank you very much Carl.
0:58
It's it's a pleasure and it's an honour to be with you and those
1:01
of you watching. Thank you for lending me your
1:04
eyes for for a while. My name is Fernando.
1:06
I'm from Colombia. I came to China in the year 2000
1:10
and I started a business of English language training
1:15
centers in the city of Donguan in Guangdong.
1:19
That started in 2000 and four, 2005 and I retired in 2021.
1:26
Basically 2021-2022 with the double reduction that took place
1:31
in which whatever subject that was taught at school could not
1:35
be taught at training centers unless you were a nonprofit.
1:38
So that was a no go for me. And since then I started just
1:44
different endeavours. Basically, I started a website
1:46
called Media Without Means. Media without Means, It's where
1:50
I try to fight misinformation by educating people and talking to
1:54
people about the stories, the other side of the stories,
1:59
namely China. There's a lot of misinformation
2:03
about China. And other than that, I, I
2:07
decided to travel. So I've travelled all over
2:10
China, mainland China and Hainan.
2:13
There's two places that I haven't been to.
2:14
I haven't been to Taiwan, I haven't been to Xinjiang or
2:17
Tibet yet, but every other province have visited more than
2:21
230 cities. And that's since 2022,
2:26
travelling in my RV. And I recently started a new
2:30
endeavour which is to do the same, but this time biking
2:33
around China. So a bit of journalist or, or
2:41
storyteller from the ground, truth teller from the ground.
2:45
And yeah, that's, that's basically it.
2:48
Anything else that you may want to know, you can leave it in the
2:51
comments and make sure to pop in and and and give you the answers
2:54
that you may want. Unless you ask me.
2:57
I you know, originally I thought I would have you on to talk
3:02
about your experience living in China because you are a long
3:05
term China resident and you have been you know all over the
3:09
country. But today I brought you
3:12
particularly because something that happened much closer to
3:16
your country or origin of Columbia.
3:19
In fact, you're the next door neighbor Venezuela.
3:22
Because what happened on January 3rd when U.S. special forces
3:28
went inside the country and kidnap Venezuelan President
3:32
Maduro and now they're going to set him up in some kind of
3:36
kangaroo court in New York. I and, and, and after
3:41
immediately after that, Trump threatened to go after Colombia,
3:47
you know, which is quite surprising to me because
3:52
Colombia, to my understanding, has been the closest US ally in
3:57
Latin America. I mean, the, the I can see the
3:59
only reason that Trump might have a problem with Colombia is
4:05
Colombia have a new leader, have a new president, new president
4:08
Petrol is trying to improve relationship with this neighbor
4:14
with Venezuela and it's trying to pursue a independent foreign
4:18
policy. Of course, that's, that's a
4:19
that's a clearly no, no for US empire.
4:22
You know, they don't care about past history or cooperation or
4:26
friendship, whatever, as long as you deviate from script.
4:29
No, you, you know, you are, you are now persona non grata.
4:34
So please, being a person from the region, you know, This is
4:38
why I have you here. Please tell me your takes on the
4:42
the the the down coding events. When I woke up to the news it
4:48
all, the first word that came to my mind was it was too easy.
4:54
It was too easy and, and and that meant many different things
4:58
in many different spheres. Too easy in the sense that it
5:01
was too easy to go into a sovereign country without pretty
5:05
much no resistance whatsoever, Find the president exactly where
5:10
he was, kidnap him and fly out and take him to to New York.
5:16
That in itself is too easy. So that there's, there's a tons
5:18
of questions that are derived from that.
5:21
Like were there traitors? Were there informants, were
5:25
people paid? Were there?
5:27
I mean, how did that come to happen, right?
5:31
What kind of technology was used in order to to find him or to
5:36
immobilize defense mechanism? I mean, there's a lot of
5:39
questions, as I said, with that little aspect.
5:43
The other part of it was too easy, had to do with the
5:47
international organizations that are supposed to safeguard
5:53
sovereign countries from things like this happening.
5:57
Where was, where is, where was the UN, Where, where was Europe?
6:01
Where were all the leaders condemning this action?
6:05
You, you have Prime Minister, the UK unable to judge what we
6:12
see is, is a violation of international law, is a
6:15
violation of the UN Charter. You, you see Macron also like
6:20
tiptoeing around it. Meloni in Italy, the same thing.
6:23
So that's, that's what I meant when it was too easy.
6:28
There was no international repudiation from Western
6:34
countries, the strong Western countries.
6:37
Obviously many countries around Latin America were really upset,
6:43
upset at this situation, worried about this situation.
6:46
And then you also have the other side of Latin America, the
6:50
elites, the oligarchs that were actually clapping for this and
6:53
asking when are we next? That's situation in Colombia.
6:58
So the, the, the idea of having your president kidnapped, it's,
7:08
it goes back to, I don't know, Panama.
7:11
That was the last time that we saw something similar.
7:14
And at that time the excuse was again, drugs.
7:20
And this is where I think we see the connection to Colombia, as
7:24
you were doing during the the preface to this question, the
7:30
the threats to Maduro were under the excuse of drugs and drug
7:35
cartels, El carte del solo de Los solos, which now they
7:41
they're not using that term in court in New York because they
7:45
accept that that doesn't really exist.
7:47
So let's judge him on some other counts.
7:51
But this is something that they're also using towards
7:54
Colombia. I mean, we've all seen Donald
7:58
Trump call Gustavo Pedro basically a drug trafficker.
8:03
Literally he said he's a drug. He makes, he has factories of
8:08
cocaine in the country he brings cocaine to, to America,
8:14
literally he brings cocaine. He has factories.
8:18
It, it's language matters. You know what I'm saying?
8:21
When you have no proof, when you have no evidence, how do you,
8:25
how do you, how does that stand before journalists, before the
8:31
international community? And The thing is, I'm not going
8:38
to defend here Gustavo Pedro, I'm not going to defend here
8:42
Nicolas Maduro. I'm here to talk about the
8:45
realities on the ground, the situation on the ground, and
8:49
what is an affront to international law and what is
8:55
the real situation. So going back to to what I said
9:00
initially, we see news today of what is taking place with the
9:07
new president, Delci Rodriguez. She is right now meeting with
9:14
the CIA directors in Caracas or the CIA officer in Caracas.
9:19
There are apparently some concessions being given to Trump
9:25
and some oil executives already. So we see that there's there's
9:31
something going on, Trump is going to get something out of
9:34
this. And it was not about drugs in
9:38
that sense. If I connected back to Colombia
9:41
very quickly, we don't have much that America may want, not
9:48
unlike Venezuela, which is the oil and more importantly
9:53
minerals. The whole idea of going after
9:58
Colombia is just noise. There's no reason why Trump
10:02
would go for Pedro. Those are threats that if Trump
10:07
has consultants and, and, and people that he can talk to,
10:12
they'll understand that there's nothing he should do or could do
10:16
in Colombia. Allow me to to explain this.
10:19
If Trump were to do something similar to Pedro in Colombia,
10:24
that automatically would give the presidency to the next left
10:33
president, which is going to be Cepeda.
10:35
We have elections in May of this year and the leading politician
10:41
is Iuan Cepeda, who is also belongs to the same party as
10:45
Gustavo Pedro. He's leading with 30% of the
10:48
vote intention so far. So if he kidnaps Pedro, then
10:54
that becomes the message for the people in Colombia.
10:57
Hey, look at the empire, what they're doing.
10:59
Cepeda wins in a landslide. If he doesn't go after Pedro,
11:05
then Pedro is going to go out in the popular square and say, oh,
11:08
look at me how strong I am, right?
11:11
He did it after he talked to Pedro on the phone and he said,
11:14
like, listen, what Trump is saying.
11:16
It is an honor to talk to President Petro.
11:20
So obviously he's already selling that as all.
11:22
I'm a strong leader, I'm a strong person.
11:24
This is who we are. Both of these moves are going to
11:28
be beneficial for the presidency of Ivan Zepeda.
11:35
When you think, when you think about what can America do,
11:40
there's really very little they can do.
11:41
The second person in those polls is coming 1/2 that.
11:46
It's around 16% of the of the intentional vote.
11:50
His name is Abelardo de Les Prieta.
11:53
He's an American citizen, double nationality, dual nationality,
11:57
and he made his fortune. Basically, he's a lawyer and he
12:02
made his fortune representing paramilitary and drug dealers in
12:06
Colombia. For context, Juan Zepeda's
12:10
father was killed by parallel paramilitary.
12:14
So this, this conflict in Colombia couldn't be any more
12:18
more real and more heated than this.
12:24
And the people are tired. The people are tired of the
12:26
oligarchy that I mean, we would have to talk about a very long
12:30
history to explain the situation in Colombia.
12:33
So why do I speak of both countries at the same time?
12:36
We have a border, and that border is a very complicated
12:39
border. It's a border.
12:40
We are one of the few countries, Colombia, that has revolutionary
12:44
armies in today's day and age. And that revolutionary army is
12:50
long, long forgotten. It's Marxist ideas or it's, it's
12:57
they're, they're not ideologically driven.
12:59
They're basically the ones who control the drug cartels.
13:04
That's what they do. So in the eastern part of
13:07
Colombia, the Prairies and the Amazon, that's where all the
13:10
plantations are and that's what they keep.
13:12
That's that's what they guard. That's where the laboratories
13:14
are. That's where they process the
13:16
cocaine. And that cocaine will go out
13:18
either the Pacific, the Caribbean, and some of it around
13:22
Venezuela. Not a whole lot because they
13:25
don't control that other country, but that's where a lot
13:29
of some of the cocaine actually leaves these plantations.
13:34
And when authorities come knocking at their doors, what
13:39
they do is they cross the border into Venezuela.
13:41
And that's what the right times to attack Maduro and say like,
13:46
oh, you see, you're, you're harvesting.
13:48
You're you're, you're giving them protection.
13:50
You're like, it's a huge border. It's a jungle.
13:53
You you can cross into the jungle and get protection from
13:57
that border. And when things come down, then
14:00
they'll cross back into Colombia.
14:02
Interestingly enough, when January 3rd happened, there was
14:08
a word that they were going to attack all over the place and
14:11
they were coming in hot. So all the leadership of the
14:15
Revolutionary Army crossed the border into Colombia to feel
14:19
safe. Once things come down a little
14:22
bit, they went back into Venezuela.
14:24
So it's a very complicated dynamic.
14:26
We can explore it in many, many angles.
14:28
And well, I'm, I'm here to to try to clarify this.
14:32
There's so much to talk about. Well, thank you because you
14:37
know, just we don't sorry, my my son is here.
14:40
I mean one second, sorry. My eldest has been pestering me
14:46
to go to the beach since this morning and I promised him we
14:49
will go when it's not sung is not too hot and I'd say nothing.
14:54
But kids, they can't wait, you know, like they they have no
14:56
concept of the future. It's like I I tell him let's go
15:00
at 5:00. That means nothing to him.
15:02
He just wants to go now. Is it 5:00 already?
15:06
No, we, we still have, we still have hour, we still have couple.
15:10
Hours actually, yeah, I think in, in the article, I, I
15:14
mentioned something that's key because analysts and and
15:18
research on the ground have information that doesn't get out
15:23
all that much and very little that we know, there's very
15:28
little sources but talking to people on the ground.
15:31
The fact is that America made this decision because they
15:36
needed to get rid of these three very important factors that were
15:42
present in Colombia at the same time. 1 was Chinese, Chinese
15:45
investments and Chinese influence both in oil.
15:48
There's some level of investment in oil, but there's also a lot
15:51
of investment in minerals. These are minerals that the
15:55
Pentagon needs since China is squeezing these rare earths and,
16:00
and who they sell them to and, and how they used so that the
16:05
banana 1 doesn't get them. Well, these minerals in
16:09
Venezuela are quite important. These minerals are in a place
16:13
where it's a little bit of a lawless exploitation of the
16:17
minerals. So it's, it's, it's ripe, it's
16:20
it's prime time to go there and kind of like exploit.
16:26
There's minerals for the benefit of the military industrial
16:29
complex. There's also Iran.
16:33
Iran was, according to the website from the USA Treasury
16:39
Research and paper, Iran was actually manufacturing and
16:44
developing some drones with capabilities that could actually
16:48
reach the United States. Again, this is the voice of the
16:51
United States, but this is kind of like a research that they've
16:55
done. And there was also some military
16:59
expertise and training from Russia.
17:01
So all these three rivals of the United States conflated at one
17:07
point in Venezuela, and they deemed the Pentagon that it was.
17:12
It was time to do something. As I, as I said in the paper,
17:16
the oil is just a distraction. The oil is just a cherry on top.
17:20
The main thing is get rid of the street rivals influence in
17:23
Venezuela and Latin America. So it it actually leads to to
17:31
probably the next question is what's going to happen next.
17:34
We're seeing now oil companies moving into Venezuela.
17:39
There was a big donor, he donated $6,000,000 to Trump's re
17:46
election campaign and he got dibs on investment in Venezuela.
17:54
There's there's many things that need to be determined and and
17:59
all eyes are on Delta Rodriguez the the president right now
18:04
because she is a chavista. She came from the grass roots of
18:13
chavismo, but at the same time, she's on very, very thin ice,
18:18
meaning that if she doesn't acquiesce to what Trump asks of
18:24
her, she'll be in trouble. The violence, the, the attacks,
18:30
there's no reason why they wouldn't come back, right?
18:33
And and do more. And if she does acquiesce, and
18:37
if she does give Trump what he wants, which seems to be the way
18:42
she's going, she's trying to save some kind of face.
18:46
She's trying to do it in a subtle way.
18:51
But then the masses, the the the population are going to see her
18:55
as a sell out that she's actually trying to save her skin
18:58
or trying to save Venezuelan. So however they wrap it up,
19:01
however they present, it is yet to be seen.
19:03
But that seems to be the way that that she's going.
19:08
She's going to give Trump what he wants in terms of oil,
19:12
minerals and others. It's it's very complicated
19:17
because exploitation of minerals and exploitation of oil is far
19:23
away from the cities. And that leaves the question of
19:29
security wide open. There's a reason why a lot of
19:33
these oil investors were saying like, look, it's uninvestable.
19:38
Why is it uninvestable #1 The kind of oil that they're talking
19:42
about is very heavy oil. It's doesn't have the uses that
19:47
you and I would think automatically when we think of
19:49
oil, it's probably good for just asphalt and, and, and pavement
19:54
and whatnot. If you wanted to use it as fuel,
19:57
you would have to mix it. You'd have to mix it with.
20:00
To connect the dot with Iran's sweet oil, if you are able to to
20:07
process and and refine this oil to the level that can be used as
20:11
fuel, then there is money to be made and there is there's a
20:14
future there, but in that sense it's uninvestable as it is now.
20:21
The other aspect is security, as I was telling you, the the
20:25
Revolutionary Army of Colombia goes in and out of Venezuela as
20:29
is if we're their own home. And one of the key strategies
20:34
that they have to destabilize the government in Colombia is to
20:38
blow up pipelines. So they would have no issue
20:42
given the Americans any trouble either at the mineral mines or
20:46
at the oil sites. So that's something that
20:51
Americans are also computing and calculating because it it
20:56
basically means you need to have security there.
20:59
You need to have either American bases, American army men or
21:05
mercenaries to protect their investments the same way that
21:08
they do it in other parts of the world.
21:11
But then that's another change in the equation in terms of
21:15
security for the region. When you have troops on the
21:20
ground in a country like Venezuela, a lot of things
21:24
change. It's it's, it's a 180 in terms
21:26
of security that has all the rival countries concerned and
21:33
the neighboring countries quite concerned as well.
21:38
Yeah, there's a lot of complication and nuances in this
21:43
that most people probably even not aware of outside of the
21:47
region. That's why I'm glad I have you
21:51
here. One thing though about the, the
21:54
oil is there's also the, the, you know, the, the time horizon
22:03
of the investment because these oil infrastructure, they're not
22:06
going to be set up in few days or even couple years.
22:10
This is going to be a multi decade long commitment to, to
22:16
put resource in the ground to, to and you will be decades
22:20
before they get return on their investment.
22:23
And this is where business really not ready to commit to
22:30
that kind of capital investment unless they have absolute
22:34
certainty that they're going to be there long enough for to get
22:40
their their money back. And given the current, not, not
22:44
the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the political situation is
22:47
not only unstable on Venezuelan side, but it's equally unstable
22:52
in United States because we don't really know what's going
22:55
to happen after three years, after Donald Trump is out of the
22:58
office. And, and, and even who knows,
23:02
Donald Trump might not even stay for three years.
23:04
And that what then? You know that there's no way
23:07
that those big oil majors will be able to get recoup their
23:10
investment within three-year time frame.
23:12
That's just too short. And, and, but I, I did talk to a
23:17
Venezuelan, Venezuela based journalist, Diego Sakira.
23:25
He did mention to me that he think the, you know, there's a
23:29
rumor that they're going to reopen the US embassy, that he,
23:33
he think it's probably going to happen.
23:36
And that goes together with the current acting president's
23:41
meeting with the CIA director. Looks like they're trying to
23:44
work out a concession that will allow Trump to declare to the
23:48
public that I won, you know, I won big league and I got this
23:53
all those winning for America. And it's a it's a tough
24:00
situation obviously for for people of Venezuela and the
24:04
government of Venezuela. But there's really, I think
24:09
there's a lot of chatter on the social media.
24:13
I saw these people are angry that this happened.
24:16
And, and after the anger, they're trying to say, why
24:19
didn't China or Russia do more, you know, do more to help in
24:24
Israel. But I think people kind of
24:27
overestimate China sometimes, you know, like in order to
24:33
project military power, even even if China wants to, even for
24:39
to China to project military power to South America, one of
24:43
those continent that's furthest away from China on the globe.
24:47
You know, like California is a lot closer to China than
24:53
Venezuela is. I mean, they're direct flights
24:57
from China to to cities in US to North America.
25:00
There's no. As far as I'm aware, there's not
25:03
really direct. Flights from China.
25:05
To South America, it's too far. And if China, if Chinese Navy
25:10
can deter U.S. Navy in the Caribbean, that
25:14
would have meant the Chinese Navy has the capability to tear
25:18
U.S. Navy off the coast of California
25:20
already because Venezuela is even further away than
25:25
California to China. And a lot like United States,
25:29
China do not maintain hundreds of overseas military bases that
25:33
will keep its military stock and supply.
25:36
So I mean, even if China has the intention, you know, I just
25:40
don't think China has the capability of power projection.
25:44
And this is this is go ahead. When when, when people ask this
25:48
question, they fail to see something that you and I
25:52
understand, but but the world out there does not because
25:56
they're sold the China threat day in and day out.
26:01
China's military is, is for defense only the only outpost
26:06
outside of the border is in Djibouti because they're wanted
26:09
and that's part of the United Nations blue helmets, blah,
26:11
blah, blah. That's that's the only personnel
26:14
that's outside their borders. So to to expect China to go out
26:20
there and and expose themselves in in a way that's against their
26:23
own principles. Go back to 1953, right, The,
26:28
the, the five principles of peaceful coexistence and
26:30
basically we don't interfere in your affairs like we saw about
26:36
that, but hey, we deal whoever's in charge.
26:39
So when when you understand where China comes from in terms
26:44
of it's, it's how China perceives itself around the
26:48
world. They have 0 intention of going
26:53
out there and starting fighting a conflict that it's not in the
26:59
nature, it's not the purpose of their military.
27:03
Do they have the capability? That's that's a different
27:07
question. But it's just not the role of
27:10
the PLA. It's not the role of the Navy is
27:13
not the role of the Air Force. And you'll be a good idea if
27:18
people watching this in the United States begin to
27:20
understand this. They're not all they're there is
27:24
for defence. Our good friend Jerry Gray says
27:27
something wonderful. It says all Chinese heroes die
27:33
defending their mainland. But what about American heroes?
27:35
They all die abroad in lands that don't belong to them and
27:39
taking things that don't belong to them.
27:42
That's the difference between Chinese heroes and American
27:44
heroes. So people asking this question
27:47
are a little bit unaware of the nature of China and its its
27:53
military military and its functions.
27:56
Do they sell equipment? Most likely do I'll use this and
28:01
that. Hey, so does the United States.
28:06
I have a an interesting perspective in term in terms of
28:12
Chinese interests. We see Donald Trump and Marco
28:18
Rubio and leadership in the United States meeting with
28:24
Netanyahu just on the night of New Year's Eve.
28:31
He's a wanted criminal. Why?
28:34
Why haven't they done anything about that?
28:37
We see leadership in the United States meeting with the new
28:41
leader of Syria. A person was wanted just a few
28:45
months ago. So the the change of perception
28:55
is what America does. Do we see China meeting with
29:00
emissaries from Syria? Yes, of course they do.
29:04
And you ask yourself, but but why?
29:06
Why? Because China deals with whoever
29:09
is in charge. They don't go there and meddle
29:12
with your stuff. They don't go and tell you do
29:14
this, do that. Whatever happens in your
29:17
country, OK, Hopefully we we can do business together.
29:22
We can have a relationship after the dust settles.
29:26
That's China. So you cannot expect China to to
29:32
change who they are and go out and defend the country on the
29:35
other end of the world when when they let the chips fall, where
29:40
they fall. And they know that once you go
29:44
down that path of being the world police as America is,
29:50
there's there's no turning back. There's no turning back America,
29:55
even if America wanted to scale down from their military
29:59
presence around the world. What is the lecture?
30:02
What is the reading? What does that say to the world?
30:04
They can't. They just can't.
30:06
The same way that they are exposed with the dollar being
30:10
used as the trade currency of the world.
30:13
They can't walk away from that. That's why you don't see a
30:16
brig's currency. It, it's, it's such a smart,
30:22
moderate and and and pragmatic approach to international
30:27
relations. They won't do things that are
30:29
not conducive to your objectives of 40 fine China and 40 fine the
30:35
global South and and that direct confrontation is not is counter
30:40
to that. Yeah, and people seem to forget
30:45
about the Cuban Missile Crisis. I mean, back in the Cold War,
30:49
when Soviet decided to place missiles on Cuba, United States
30:55
threaten to threaten nuclear war.
30:58
I mean, that almost led to a nuclear exchange.
31:02
You know, that they would US would, you know, blow up the
31:07
world If you know, like, like if someone to place missiles in, in
31:13
places like Cuba or Venezuela. And and that's, that's, you
31:19
know, I, I don't know, I don't know if it's because it's too
31:21
far down the main memory lane or, or, but but that that's a
31:26
fact that the US would try. To that raises that raises a
31:32
very important question, Carl, because we know why they don't
31:36
touch North Korea. We know why they don't touch it.
31:40
So should we looking at should we be looking at other countries
31:46
militarizing and having nukes? Should we start this path?
31:51
And the answer is obviously no. I don't think that that is the
31:54
path, but it does beg the question.
31:59
They'll never touch North Korea and they know why.
32:02
But countries that don't have the capacity to defend
32:06
themselves, countries that are split from within by design,
32:16
don't have the capabilities to defend themselves.
32:18
And, and, and, and in that sense, I would like to get back
32:20
to the oligarchs, the, the, the elites, the society that is
32:25
split in most of Latin American countries from Mexico all the
32:29
way down to Argentina. There is always a right wing
32:34
elite that benefited from the relationship with the United
32:39
States via bribes, via contracts, via favorable export
32:45
treaties or etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
32:49
So there's sides in our countries that are, are, are
32:53
keen to have good relationships with the United States.
32:56
Even in Venezuela there are people say like, OK, if they
33:00
remove sanctions, maybe this is a good thing.
33:03
Maybe he had to go. You know what I mean?
33:06
There's there's people who think like, OK, if this is the price
33:09
to pay, this is the price to pay.
33:10
Maduro had to go. OK, Maduro had to go.
33:12
Maybe we'll have a chance now. So you can understand how some
33:16
people on the ground could think that way, but there's also a
33:22
vast majority of people who have been sold out by those
33:27
oligarchs, sold out by those elites that will not accept it,
33:32
that are they are actually the the, the count father that will
33:35
fight for the sovereignty of their countries.
33:37
We have them in Colombia, we have them in Venezuela, we have
33:40
them in in Mexico. There are forces fighting for
33:45
the sovereignty of the countries and for years and years and
33:51
years, this Don Romo tree, this Monroe dog tree has, has been
33:59
reinvented and reinvented and, and it has different colors and
34:02
different flavors. And is, is what has led to
34:06
Venezuela shaking up with Hugo Chavez and saying that's it.
34:11
You guys are out expropriate, expropriate, expropriate and and
34:16
try to regain some sovereignty. So this explains why you will
34:25
find loud voices applauding and and clapping and celebrating
34:29
what happened in Venezuela. And you have voices in my
34:33
country, for example, that are actually inviting Americans to
34:38
invade us. They want to remove Gustavo
34:41
Pedro at any cost. Elections are in a couple of
34:44
months, so probably that's not going to happen, as I explained
34:46
it already. But for months, for months,
34:49
they've been presidential candidates calling for America
34:53
to invade us. What?
34:55
What do you know what I'm saying?
34:58
So that's the reality on the ground.
35:01
You have these two forces colliding constantly,
35:04
permanently, the left and the right, Reds and Blues going at
35:10
at each other. And in the end, the one that
35:14
loses is the people. The one that loses is the the
35:19
guys who are caught in the middle in our countries via
35:22
violence, in our countries via corruption.
35:27
So a shake up like what Chavez did in Venezuela with all the
35:35
struggles that it brought about is, is is one option is one
35:40
option for a lot of countries. It's it's one option that we
35:44
have come May 2026 in Colombia when we go to the election
35:50
booths and choose our next leader.
35:54
The main thing is when you analyze, when you ask answer the
36:00
when you ask the question, OK, who has a chance to win in
36:03
Colombia? Because we've had a wave of
36:06
right wing presidents winning in Latin America from Malay a few
36:10
years ago. But then it was Chile, then it
36:12
was Bolivia, then it was Ecuador, Honduras, right.
36:14
There's been a wave of of right wing presidents that have won
36:18
over the last year or so. And our elections are coming in
36:22
a couple of months. There is no chance that the
36:27
right will win. And I'll tell you why.
36:29
Petra has been doing a couple of things that are kind of ensuring
36:34
that he wants a beta is going to win same party.
36:38
As I said before #1 he, he redistributed land.
36:46
So he took land from drug dealers, he threw drug
36:49
traffickers. He took land from paramilitary.
36:52
He sent them to court and then distributed to farmers.
36:57
Just he just gave land to farmers.
36:58
That's millions and millions of farmers that are indebted to
37:04
Petro that love him to the end because now they are land
37:09
owners. The other thing that he did
37:12
recently was that he increased the minimum wage by 23%.
37:19
You got to consider that inflation last year was 5%.
37:24
So the minimum wage goes 23, inflation is five.
37:28
And this was done by decree, so it didn't follow the proper
37:33
norms of the country. So that's going to be used
37:37
against Petro in the future, but we'll talk about that in a
37:40
second. What does that do?
37:43
Well, about 15% of the workforce in Colombia earns a minimum
37:49
wage. That's about 10 million people
37:53
now, sorry, not 10 million, about 5 million people.
37:57
That's, that's 5 million votes already.
38:00
Those people, who are they going to vote when this president is
38:04
giving you more money and their families, whoever is eligible to
38:08
vote? So he's done a couple of things
38:11
that are pretty significant, very populist, if we're being
38:15
honest. And the last thing that he did,
38:18
Petro, is that he eliminated toll fees.
38:23
You don't have to pay toll fees anymore.
38:24
This was like a couple of days ago, a couple of weeks ago.
38:28
So all the farmers and all the transportation professionals,
38:33
they are now getting more money in their pockets.
38:36
So again, that's another millions and millions of people
38:40
who he is winning hearts by doing these kinds of things.
38:45
So, so you can see which way the, the, the water is flowing.
38:52
Cepeda is very likely going to be the next president of the of
38:56
Colombia. And what is the next move?
39:01
Talking to experts and researchers on the ground, what
39:04
they expect is a campaign similar to what happened to a
39:08
little illegitimate. Just say that the elections were
39:14
stolen, illegitimate, and that's the campaign that starts.
39:18
And maybe removal at some point is in the cards.
39:22
Who knows? But you can see that that's
39:26
probably what's going to happen because to have another
39:29
left-leaning president in Colombia, a country that has
39:34
coast over the Pacific and the Atlantic, such such an important
39:38
geographical position and some resources that might be of
39:43
interest to some companies in the US, I don't think they can
39:50
have it. I don't think that that that
39:51
they want to have it. They need to have that win as
39:53
well, even if it's just an ideological win, not necessarily
39:56
an economic win. But ideologically they would
39:59
want to prevent more left-leaning presidencies on the
40:04
ground, more populist measures taking place, because then the
40:09
right will never get back in power, at least in Colombia.
40:14
Yeah, I mean, that's what US has been trying to do in Latin
40:18
America for forever, actually trying to foreclose the other
40:23
option as you mentioned. You know, This is why wave of
40:27
regime change that has that took place, you know, most people,
40:33
you know, vividly remember is what happened to Allende in
40:37
Chile. But there's a lot more.
40:40
You know, The funny thing is it's not even, but, but it's not
40:44
even the, the left wing government that's that's been
40:49
prone regime change. You have Noriega, nobody's
40:52
called QC Noriega the finger being a left wing president.
40:56
I mean, they went after him anyway.
40:58
And, and, and, and, you know, but I, there is a difference
41:02
though, because you did mention the operation in Panama at that
41:07
time. I think that was around the time
41:09
I just came to United States. I think.
41:11
So I, I, this, I, I recall this vividly.
41:15
And, and what in Panama that was actually a ground invasion,
41:21
right? I mean, U.S. military went in
41:23
full force. What in, happened in Venezuela
41:26
is a little bit different right now.
41:28
They're doing economic embargo. They're they're seizing all the
41:32
oil tankers that's coming in and out of Venezuela, trying to, you
41:36
know, force a economic collapse to put up additional pressure on
41:40
the Venezuelan government. And then they did the kidnapping
41:44
of Maduro, which is like very Hollywood, you know, like, oh,
41:48
wow, we had this awesome U.S. military doing this big
41:52
successful operation. First.
41:53
They claim nobody was killed, right?
41:57
Like that's, that's what their first claim, they say nobody was
41:59
killed and then now news comes out actually 32 Cuban bodyguards
42:05
of Maduro actually did die trying to defend Maduro.
42:09
So. You know, there were there were
42:11
civilians of military that were killed.
42:13
And then the sorry if I if I, if I caught your train of thought,
42:17
but it just brings back another idea.
42:20
When I said it was too easy, it was too easy.
42:23
So Trump is in this celebratory mode and thinking I might as
42:28
well do it somewhere else. I mean, if it was so easy, just
42:31
just do it somewhere else. They have the sights on
42:35
Greenland. They have the sights on Cuba.
42:38
You have members of Congress telling same bound in Mexico,
42:43
you're next. Same way that they said that to
42:46
Petro. So is this is this whip that
42:50
that we hear all around Latin America and the weeping could
42:57
continue. The weeping could hit Cuba,
43:03
Mexico, I mean, who, who knows who's next?
43:07
So in that sense, that idea that Petro floated out there of the
43:12
Grand Colombia to to to unite several countries in what was
43:19
the Bolivarian dream of the Grand Colombia.
43:21
Not necessarily as one country, but as a union, like the
43:26
European Union, for example. Not necessarily, again, with a
43:31
unique currency, but at least in terms of sovereignty and in
43:35
terms of some kind of cooperation, some kind of
43:40
solidarity that makes them less, makes us these territories less
43:45
weak before the United States, harder to take on.
43:50
So that's an idea that was floated.
43:53
God knows where that's going to go.
43:54
But but something has to be done because we are at the mercy we
43:59
are. Again.
44:00
We can be weeped any minute, and we have.
44:05
We're not North Korea. Yeah, I, I, I mean, Grand
44:11
Colombia might be what's needed, but I think US would definitely
44:16
be very dead set against it because United States was the
44:20
one that separated Panama for Colombia in the 1st.
44:24
Place 19 O3 Yes, 19 O3. I was part of the Monroe, an
44:29
attendment to the Monroe of Dream.
44:32
Yeah, that there's no way United States would allow, you know,
44:36
like a very strategic country like Panama to attach itself
44:41
with a very strategic country like like Venezuela and and then
44:47
add that to Colombia, you know, like these are this you got the
44:50
crown of South America right there.
44:53
And yeah, that that will I mean that would definitely these
44:59
countries combined together definitely have to collect more
45:04
bargaining power vis of the United States.
45:08
That's exactly why US would like to prevent it from happening.
45:11
The question that I that I asked in an interview that I was doing
45:15
with CGTN was listen, the leaders and, and, and the
45:22
presidents and the governments of the countries of this grand
45:24
Colombia idea need to answer the question where, where do they
45:30
stand when America said this is our hemisphere?
45:34
What answer do you give to that question, to that statement?
45:38
How do you respond? Where do you stand on that?
45:41
Do you agree that we are America's backyard?
45:45
How does that sit with you? For a lot of countries, they
45:49
think is fine. For other countries, no.
45:54
And getting back to the question about why China couldn't do
46:00
more, I sometimes ask myself this question more, but not
46:03
militarily, but in terms of influence.
46:08
And how do you get influence? Well, actually changing the
46:12
lives of people on the ground. There's tons of projects that
46:17
China has all over Latin America from the port in Shanghai, in
46:22
Peru that is a automated port working 24 hours a day,
46:27
wonderful Direct Line of trade of trade between Shanghai and
46:31
Peru. And the plans to build that
46:34
railroad into Brazil, crossing the Andes, It would be a
46:39
wonderful thing. But if China were to do more,
46:43
than hearts would change faster. It's so easy to walk the streets
46:49
of Caracas. It's so easy to walk the streets
46:52
of Mexico City or Bogota and hear people say are communist.
46:56
The communists, the communists like they hate China with no
47:02
particular reason. That's just what they've been
47:05
brainwashed to believe. So if China does more to improve
47:12
the lives of our people via investment, via cooperation,
47:16
etcetera, etcetera, then you'd have more people actually
47:24
comparing and coming to, to understand the difference
47:28
between getting whipped or getting helped.
47:30
It's so easy. China now is building highways,
47:35
is being building ports, is built.
47:37
I'm talking about Colombia. There's a Newport called Puerto
47:40
Antoquia in the Pacific. There's talks of a cargo
47:45
railroad from when I went to the Pacific to Santa Marta in the in
47:49
the Caribbean. There's just so much that can be
47:52
done. They're building our our first
47:54
metro in the capital city, Bogota.
47:57
China is doing quite a lot of work in Colombia and that's,
48:03
that's how you gain influence. It's it's a slow it takes a lot
48:09
of convincing and the situation for a lot of politicians back
48:14
home is difficult to maneuver. They don't have too much
48:17
maneuverability or too much a space.
48:20
Only last year did Columbia join assign the Bri to accept some
48:26
Bri projects. President came to Beijing, he
48:30
signed and now we are an official member of the Bri.
48:35
So, so that's, that's the thing when people say China could have
48:39
done more, I kind of feel like, yes, there's so much more that
48:44
we can do. Educational exchanges, man,
48:48
we're, we are so much in need of exchanges.
48:53
For example, the technicians, just to give you an idea, the
48:56
technicians that are going to control, run, operate and
49:00
maintain the subway in Bogota, they're studying in Xi'an.
49:04
They speak better Chinese than me and you right now.
49:08
And for those of For those of you who don't know, Xi'an is the
49:13
place where you go to study how to handle subways.
49:17
Xi'an has a very complicated subway system because whenever
49:21
they dig a tunnel, they find some kind of tomb or some kind
49:26
of relic. Oh God damn it.
49:27
Now we need to protect it. Redesign, go back to the drawing
49:30
board. So they have this ability to to
49:34
to be flexible, to think on the feet and to find solutions,
49:37
technical solutions. That actually that is where
49:40
where people go to study when they want to build subways in
49:43
their countries. So there's dozens of technicians
49:47
from Colombia in Xi'an studying and learning and and going back
49:52
to bring this know how to the country that's we need that
49:57
times 100 in more countries in Latin America.
50:01
And then those hearts begin to change and then those minds
50:05
begin to change. It's it's the way militarily
50:10
forget it. Whoever is listening, whoever is
50:12
asking that question, China is not going to do it.
50:15
Non interference. That's that's China's thing.
50:20
Yeah, I, I agree. And I think I, I'm fairly
50:23
optimistic about the future cooperation between China and
50:28
Latin America because fundamentally China and Latin
50:32
America, they have compatible economies.
50:35
China is a big commodity consumer and Latin America is a
50:40
big commodity producer. And this actually, you know,
50:44
goes back to the US intervention in Venezuela.
50:47
Lot, lot of the thing doesn't actually make sense because if
50:51
you think about it, US is actually a oil producer just as
50:56
Venezuela is currently US is exporter of oil.
51:01
It does not need the Venezuelan oil, which as you mentioned,
51:05
it's harder to process it. Actually it's it's higher,
51:09
higher production cost because we need all these steps of
51:12
refining to actually make it usable as fuel.
51:16
So this is I think a lot of this is might be just conceived in
51:20
Trump's own head. He, he think, oh, he just read,
51:23
oh, Venezuela is has the world's largest reserve of oil.
51:27
We must get our hands on that oil.
51:29
We can't have the Chinese get their hands on that oil.
51:32
But you know, like, like the oil when he didn't meet with oil
51:36
executives, they did paint a different picture for him.
51:40
So which brings me thinking, why didn't they have a a
51:45
consultation before this? You know, you you would think
51:48
you you should have consulted with the oil majors before you
51:52
go and grab more oil. But.
51:55
Because it's not about the oil, as I said, it's not about the
51:58
oil, as I said in my article in China Daily.
52:00
Maybe we can post it in the, in the in the description of the
52:03
video, it was not about the oil. It was about the presence of
52:06
these three very important countries in Venezuela doing
52:11
things together that the Pentagon simply did not like.
52:15
It was not about the drugs either.
52:17
I mean, everybody saw this salami slicing of violation of
52:22
the international law, just blowing up speedboats full of
52:27
cocaine or not, it doesn't matter.
52:29
But that those are extrajudicial killings and the international
52:33
community, just look the other way.
52:36
I postulated an interesting question that didn't go too far
52:40
in in Chinese media. But if it's OK for the United
52:49
States to kill and bomb and blow up speed boats that are bringing
52:54
drugs because they're going to kill Americans, do you reckon
53:01
that China is within its rights to blow up ships and boats and
53:07
whatever that is going to bring weapons to Taiwan that are going
53:12
to kill Chinese people at some point?
53:14
That's the only reason they're in Taiwan. 6767, You know, like,
53:21
if that's OK, then this is also OK.
53:24
If that's OK, this is also OK. Of course, that's immoral.
53:28
That's that's that's the range behavior.
53:33
But then it does make you think that wasn't about drug, it
53:38
wasn't about democracy, correct Mundo if it if it was not about
53:43
drugs, if it was not about freedom, if it was not about
53:46
democracy, because regime change didn't really happen.
53:51
And if it wasn't really about the oil, what was it about
53:56
minerals? And I insist, and I'll die on
53:58
that hill. This, this is the thing that you
54:00
know, you, you mentioned that the US is now creating a
54:04
president. This is what I said when US was
54:07
doing its freedom of navigation patrol in South China Sea.
54:12
I say, well, I mean, just wait until China has built enough
54:16
ships. You know, I look forward to the
54:19
freedom of navigation patrol off the coast of California.
54:24
Well, right now China and Russia, now they're conducting
54:28
joint exercises off the coast of Alaska.
54:31
You know, they're, they're So what, what I think eventually,
54:35
you know, US do need some kind of pushback, especially a leader
54:39
like Trump. You know, Trump is basically
54:40
acting like a bully. He, he will push and push.
54:44
If he sends weakness, he will push further.
54:46
You know, like this is what I, I just can't respect the European
54:51
leadership because they thought they, they will get on the good
54:55
side of Trump if they just do what the US asked, even though
55:00
much of the USUU leadership absolutely despise Trump.
55:05
Yet they are totally bending themselves backwards.
55:11
You, you just passed a resolution that they're going to
55:14
ban Chinese components in critical infrastructure in
55:19
Europe. And this came out just before
55:23
Trump's announcement that he's going to slap additional 10%
55:26
tariff on a bunch of European countries.
55:31
The, the, the deal with Greenland is not reached and he
55:34
will increase the tariff to 25%. It's because Trump is a bully.
55:39
You to, to deal with a bully, you have to stand up to them and
55:43
make them back down. And, and that's what happened
55:45
during the trade war when China says no.
55:47
And then then Trump changed his tune.
55:49
Now he says, oh, she is my a very good friend of mine.
55:54
And, and I, and I think on the, on the issue of Latin America
56:00
cooperation, I'm, I'm optimistic because I see currently the
56:05
Chinese economy is far more, far more complementary with Latin
56:09
American countries than United States is because for decades US
56:15
was the a source of capital investment in, in Latin America.
56:21
But United States don't even do that anymore like US is being
56:25
out competed in, in, in, in, in terms of investment, in terms of
56:31
investment infrastructure, in terms of even people to people
56:34
exchange. I would argue because US right
56:36
now, the only thing that can compete is military
56:41
intervention. You know, the only, only thing
56:43
that could offer is military intervention, regime change,
56:46
whereas China is offering what everyone else wants, which is
56:50
development. So I think This is why I'm more
56:53
optimistic over long term, you know, there will be setbacks,
56:56
there will be, you know, US intervention in the meantime.
56:59
But over a long time horizon, I think, you know, the the China
57:04
and Latin America will move close.
57:06
I mean, you would you just have Scott Carney, the PM of Canada,
57:11
just visited China, Anglo country, you know, Anglo 5I
57:15
country no less. Another strategic alliance.
57:20
Yeah, this is what the Trump policy is, is resulting in is,
57:24
is, is driving more and more people away from the United
57:28
States and, and, and, and that that's, you know, US empire is
57:32
sustained by its so-called alliances.
57:35
And, and right now Trump is completely stomping on that.
57:39
And I think This is why I'm still cautiously optimistic over
57:44
long term. What what makes me very
57:47
optimistic is understanding that in Spanish, for those of you who
57:54
are interested in this topic, we call it patas de Ocado, or the
57:58
last kicks of a drowning man. That's what this feels like.
58:01
It's you. You can see the deolarisation
58:07
really ramping up, picking up speed.
58:13
Basically this, this grab of oil in, in Venezuela, again, not the
58:18
main objective, but one possible breather for the Petro dollar.
58:27
It's, it's, it's what we're seeing.
58:29
We're seeing the, the US losing influence.
58:33
We what we are way behind unfortunately is on soft power.
58:43
We are you and I pretty much on Western social media.
58:49
We can be shut down any minute. We are on YouTube trying to tell
58:54
a story. You get too big, you get shut
58:56
down, you're too small. Nobody wants you to down
58:59
throttle you. So, so there is there is a
59:03
digital environment outside of the control of the United States
59:08
that needs to be globalized, that needs to be embraced by the
59:16
global South and, and, and China has it all.
59:19
China has it all. China has WeChat, China has DOI
59:23
in Xiaohongshu. China has all these things that
59:27
they just need to be flipped to an international community, and
59:35
then we're playing to billions of people on a ground that they
59:40
do not control that. Well, they already did with the
59:43
tik. T.O.K we're lacking.
59:45
Yeah, they already did that with TikTok.
59:46
That's why US, that's why US went after TikTok because they
59:50
realized, oh, wow, wow, wow. There's a tool that we do not
59:54
have complete control over. Got a throttle that we have to
59:58
own that, but yeah. Imagine.
1:00:01
If if you and I were able to speak to, to African countries,
1:00:05
if you and I were able to speak to, to Southeast Asian countries
1:00:10
on platforms that are not controlled by the US, it would
1:00:16
be wonderful because then that misinformation and that, that
1:00:20
thumb on the scale, it would not be present.
1:00:24
That's where I think there's so much more ground to to cover and
1:00:29
it connects to digital sovereignty, to cyber
1:00:33
sovereignty. The issues with Starlink right
1:00:36
in Iran, It's, it's so complex and it's so, so green still that
1:00:43
that this countries in the global S haven't actually
1:00:46
awakened to the necessity of, of creating something, some sort of
1:00:50
alternative. And, and China is ready to lead
1:00:54
in that department with social media, with platforms, with AI,
1:00:59
an AI that is not the ring tearing form of AI.
1:01:04
You can, you can exploit it and, and model it whichever way you
1:01:08
want. And it's, it's, it's free open
1:01:12
source. So there's, there's so much to
1:01:16
do in self power, if you know what I'm saying.
1:01:21
I, I, I don't know when we'll be there yet, when, when we'll get
1:01:25
there. At what point should we just
1:01:28
start having this kind of conversations and, and
1:01:31
broadcasts in, in other platforms?
1:01:34
But for the time being, we're here, and whatever we say or
1:01:37
don't say, it's at the mercy of some algorithm on some guy on a
1:01:43
desk in in Montecito or whatever.
1:01:48
Well, I feel I can talk to you forever, Fernando.
1:01:52
We can just just talk about anything and and there's so many
1:01:56
fascination, fascinating topic. You know, like a lot of the
1:02:00
stuff that you talk about just happened to be my interest as
1:02:03
well. So I look forward to have you
1:02:05
back to my show So. Hey, Carol, thank you so very
1:02:08
much. Yeah, thank you for making your
1:02:10
time to speak to to my audience. If if people want to follow you
1:02:15
on social media or elsewhere, where would they go?
1:02:17
You can follow me on media without means here on YouTube.
1:02:22
Media without means also well in in on X is Medios sin Medios,
1:02:29
which is in Spanish, but media without means is fine.
1:02:31
It's also a website mediawithoutmeans.org.
1:02:34
So hope to see you over there with some of the content that I
1:02:36
put over there. Yeah, people give give Fernando
1:02:40
a like and then follow and leave your comment below to tell us
1:02:45
what you think about our discussion.
1:02:48
You know, about China, about Latin America, Venezuela,
1:02:52
Colombia and United States. And and thanks to everyone for
1:02:57
tuning in. Until next time, bye.
1:03:00
Bye. Two guys, bye, bye.