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E43 Avoid Robotic AI Branding with Darrell Irwin · Stronger Business Together

• Granger Forson: This is a stronger business together podcast where business owners learn from other owners. No theory, no gurus, real journeys and overcoming real hurdles. Today I'm joined by Darrell Owen who runs creation with an eight. We'll come to that I'm sure. Like any business owner, he's in that middle of building things, fixing things, growing some things that really matters to him. So Darrell, welcome to the podcast. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: No, thanks so much, Granger. Love having conversations with you and even better to stick it online and show everybody the conversations that we had, but absolutely love. Granger Forson: Fantastic. Absolutely. I've been on your podcast twice and now you're on mine twice. Awesome. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. Granger Forson: So let's get on with act one all about your business. So in plain English, what does your business do? Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: So we are a brand marketing agency, so we effectively help people tell stories to engage the right type of client. If you tell the right story, you get the right type of inquiries. So we work really hard on telling a story, answering their questions that provoke the inquiry or the interest to engage. Granger Forson: Fantastic. And I alluded in the intro, why the eight in the name creation? Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: So the name creation really ultimately is about creating. It's about infinite possibilities. So the number eight is symbolic of infinite, the infinite number. So we use that at the heart of what we do. So eight is also, as I've been growing up, I've had an eight on the back of my shirt when I used to play football. Eight's always been like a bit of a theme number in my life. you know, for David Granger Forson: Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Beckham, guess it was seven. For me, it's number eight. when I saw infinite and eight, I just popped the two together and said, Hey, let's start an agency with creation with the number eight in and it's worked. It's, you know, it's made a stand out. So when you're chasing invoices, quite fun. They go, is that creation with an eight? Yeah, that's it. And then stuff. It's got many advantages. Yeah, they remember you. That's the thing is to remember you. Granger Forson: There's the real secret, yeah. Game voices fade. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Right, so, who do you love helping and what are they typically dealing with? Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: So we like working with organizations where they've been trading maybe three to five years. They're successful. They've got a team. They might even have an internal team. But the challenge is that they're probably struggling to communicate who they are. The business has changed somewhat over those three and five years. And the website and the communications don't reflect where they are now. So often we get involved where some of the symptoms that come with it are retention issues. People decide to leave and move on. or ultimately that they can't get clients, they're not getting clicks on the website, know, the basic stuff that we see as symptoms of a digital footprint that's not working for them. So what we do is we go back to the heart of the story and realize, certainly in our purpose playbook journey that we do, that the owner, as however well-meaning they are, may have mission drifted by one or two degrees. So the idea is that we bring alignment to their particular assignment and that hopefully then build the story. in what they wanted to build. Because often you make decisions by circumstance, not conviction. And what we try and do is bring them back to that place of conviction to say, why did you start the business? Who were the people that you wanted to help? And how do you make a difference? So ultimately, we're after purpose-driven owners that really want to make an impact, but maybe lost their way a little bit. They're not chasing the numbers, they're chasing the impact. And as we teach over and over again, if you chase the impact first, the income normally comes afterwards. Granger Forson: Yeah, I fully get that. know, as a business owner, we start off with that original idea, that original spark we get going and customers come along and customers say, can you do this as well? Could you do this? What about this product? What about... And we evolve and change over time as we chase money, as we then build the business, as we take on staff, we then chase other opportunities and we can sort of lose that direction. So you're sort of helping us come back to that original direction, that original focus, that original spark. So speaking of sparks, why did the business start? What was your original spark? Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: So my original spark was quite simple really. was successful in a brand market agency. We had international clients, clients and brands that we've all heard of like Levi's, Virgin Holidays. And then we had a few Stella Artois and then we had a few sort of alcohol companies and then a title end of cigarette companies. And I spent 10 years working hard, fast and furious to get to where I wanted to get and ultimately run an agency in London. And I was given the opportunity with three other people. we'd each get 25 % each to run the agency. And it came to that week where on the week leading up to me signing the papers, it began, began to wrestle with the fact that this wasn't purpose driven. was essentially celebrating brands that were ending people's lives rather than helping their lives or improving their lives. And I realized that for me to say, say goodbye to the type of clients that they're working with, that was never going to happen. I guess I had that crisis of conscience going, well, I had that legacy thing of what do I want to do in life? Do I want to be remembered for just churning out, you know, more things to help people smoke more or more people to drink more. And I just got to the point where this wasn't it for me. And I think at the same time, and it was, I would argue it all happened in about a week, really. I'd been dating a girl as well for about three months on the lead up to this. So that meant me moving to London and she had just come to Bristol. So there was that, what are going to do? You're going to stay, you're going to go. And. We were out in the car one day and she just asked the basic question, you know, there's got to be more to life than what you're up to, you know, and her generally as well. So there's got to be more to life than this. And anyway, long story short, we got, we got back into a conversation. It got me to revisit my Christian faith that I kind of ignored. got 16 and when I did my own thing, and it was probably where that crisis of consciousness was coming from that working on brands, ending people's lives, and I was thinking, well, maybe that's what it is. Maybe these things aren't connecting and maybe I need to revisit this. So one story short, I turned the opportunity down. I sat in the boardroom with like all the other people and just said, I'm not going to do it. And they were like shocked. And then I said, well, I'm going to leave. And they're like, what? You know, they just blown away. And I just said, I'm just going to pursue something else. I'm going to pursue something more meaningful. And I remember what took 10 years to build, I destroyed in 10 minutes, you know, and that was it. You know, then we're back on the train. Granger Forson: Wow, that's real courage. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Yeah, I remember going back on the train thinking, I don't know what I've just done, but I know I've done it for the right reasons. And so it's making that blind decision, blind faith, if you like. And then I would argue within, I think I left about a month later, the company obviously handed me noticing. They actually invited me back when I went freelance to help them to transition to moving the whole operation to London, because it's based in London and Bristol. And at the same time, that girl had that conversation with become a wife. So that's 25 years on it's worth Granger Forson: Brilliant. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: the risk worked. and long story short, were that, that embryonic thought of. I can use my skills, talents, abilities, but maybe I'm using them in the wrong way. How do I help people then led me to stumbling across purpose and beginning to really, really unpack that. And then not only help myself being purpose driven, but help other businesses. And you know what? This was new to me. And the more people I began to speak to, the more people were having this crisis of conscience at some point in their life, whether it was 27, where it's 37, where it's 42, we all get to that point in life where are we doing it for just money or are we doing it for impact? And some of us ignore it and just carry on chasing the money. And some of us go, you know what, actually I'm going to do something different, which is why I do my podcast. Cause it's full of people that made that pivot point that said, you know what, I'm going to do this for purpose rather than for. for profit and yet helps making profit. ultimately the quest is how do I impact people? So I went from working from less purposeful brands to working with purposeful brands. And I love doing it, you know, and we do that in Hungary. We do it in America and we do it in, in the UK as well. And for me, it's, it's been, it's been an adventure and it's almost like the world started to catch up a little bit with the whole purpose thing. And the more people I speak to and the more people I interview. I've all been through that. 27 years Granger Forson: Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: old, that, okay, I'm good at what I do. getting paid for what I'm doing. I'm really successful, but when it comes to the legacy piece, I don't know if I want to do this and that's when change happens. Granger Forson: Well, mine was a bit later than that as mine was 53 when I gave up the corporate Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: I'm sorry. Granger Forson: life and bought a franchise. But actually we had that moment last year. My partner and I, as I said on your podcast, we were driving back from a journey of going to see an exemplar company that I've watched for many years doing the lean stuff that I know. And we had this conversation for five hours in the car and we both said, it's time to do this ourselves. of February this year, that's the Stronger Business Together came together and was launched and it's about bringing in as you say that that purpose and understanding but it took us four years journey of trying to work and understand how to do that to get to the point when we were realized that actually that's what we need to do so yeah we all have those those moments though some of us come a bit later in life. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: It is. It's really interesting when you study it out. mean, like, you know, there's in music, there's this thing called the 27 Club, where people get exceptionally famous. And then they come across that it's hollow or it's empty. And then you got called the 27 Club where drug drugs and drink takes them out early. So you've got, you know, from Kurt Cobain to Amy Winehouse died at the same age died at 27 years old. So I think it is a theme that we we're faced with this question in life. do we, we live it, we let life happen to us. And then it's like, we want to take it by the reins. And I think success, know, success can blind us, you can be really successful. Everyone's going, hey, you're doing brilliant in your job. And you're like, yeah, I am great. But somehow, there's this unanswered question. And I think, like Granger Forson: Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: yourself, Granger, I know that you're certainly more purpose aligned now than you've ever been. And that brings a whole new outlook on life. Granger Forson: Absolutely, absolutely. It really does. brings that getting up in the morning every day, being excited about what you're going to do, very much like yourself and your customers. customers, who do you normally work with? And you talked about multiple countries. How do you delight them? Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: So ultimately we delight them by telling great stories, but ultimately building them out to see how much mileage a story can run. So a story can go on a website, a story can go in an exhibition stand, for example. the latest exhibition, working with a company where they lead in every space tells a story, which is a parking company. And then latest exhibition stand is gonna be a giant book. You know, and it's just to see how these, once you've got the narrative and you've got this story, you can just open it and build it and build it. And I think the light in the client is just making sure that you're communicating regularly, anticipating where they want to go, support where they are going. And ultimately just delivering exceptional work that amplifies the story that we've all decided to tell. And they get great comments and great engagement in their client and ultimately win more business. And I mean, I think for us, what we found is that. That's not restricted to one country. And we've gone to say Hungary with the Hungarian British business Alliance and we picked up business there and they've just began thinking about this purpose thing and storytelling stuff. So it's really good for us. And then obviously in the U S is, you know, there is that ability to scale and grow and chase money, but ultimately they want to do it the right way. And thankfully we're surrounded with some incredible people that, you know, again, want to want to do some great stuff. you know, it, that's how we delight them. It's like, can we amplify your story? Yes. How do we amplify your story? Well, that could be 3d, it could be podcasts, it could be, it could be regular content, can be social media, but it's them understanding that once you have a story, you can tell it in multiple different ways. And I think not everyone realizes they can, you know, and that's also what helps them. Granger Forson: Hmm. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So in order to do that, you've got a team around you. And I know, you through a lot of conversations, you've also built other businesses then off the back of that. you know, what's the business size and shape today and what else have you built around it? Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: So the business, we've got a remote team. We used to have an office and we made a decision to go remote. And funny enough, at the same time, we've ended up working in other countries. So it's kind of worked because ultimately, know, funny enough, the CEO of one particular business came for a podcast, know, came and joined us for a podcast as he was in London and hopped over and that was great. And I think for me, the team is, it seems around about 14 people. Not all of them are core employed. They're a mix of like, you know, full-time team and then contractors and then the odd three arts that supports us. And ultimately we help people get a career. So, you know, people that have never been in the industry, we've trained up so much of our team that we have, I've trained. We gave them an opportunity many years ago and they're still with me. are moving on and that's just the natural cycle of life. And then we got new people Granger Forson: It is indeed. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: coming in. And I think for me, it's like, When someone leaves you like, no, you know, what are doing? You know, and you kind of think, what have I done wrong? But the reality is, you know, for instance, got, you know, people have moving on and there's one particular individual that's been with us for years and years and years. And funnily enough, he's going into the, going into the church of England as a minister, you know, totally different career. Yeah, totally different career. So ultimately exceptionally talented in what he does. So I'm sure he had the best church website, the best church public Granger Forson: Ha Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: place. I guarantee it, but. You know, he's come to that thing where he's enjoyed what he's done. He's made a lot of impact, but he said, this is an itch that I want to scratch and I want to go for it. And I think, you know, I've had to learn that if someone's been with you five years, that's incredible. You know, and Granger Forson: Yeah. Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: generally that's the case. think most people that are with us, some have been five years, some are, some have gone to 10. George who's leaving us was in the charitable set up when we first started and now in the other business in total has been with me about 18 years. So yeah, you know, Granger Forson: Yeah, I think that's fantastic. mean, one of the best managers I've ever had in my life, used to introduce me to the concept of servant leadership, which Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Yeah. Granger Forson: sort of comes from the Christianity type approach. But I think it's a beautiful thing. And he always used to talk about, you're just a shepherd of people for a time. For that time, yes, we need output from those people, but we're there to develop and grow them so they have the opportunity to move on and do more, you know, and that's what being a shepherd's about. And I always used to love that. phrase and that structure that he brought, know, and I carry that with me everywhere I've been, every business I've worked with and every business I now help as a business Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Yeah. Granger Forson: coach. I try to bring that ethos to small business owners as well. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: No, and absolutely. mean, you John Maxwell talks about it a lot. So the leadership, if you heard of John Maxwell, quite famous in the leadership world, you know, Granger Forson: Yep. Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: he talks about developing the leader within you and developing leader around you. But, you know, first and foremost, it's about understanding you that it's not all about you. It's about other people elevating them is Granger Forson: Yeah. Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: about helping them go from where they need from where you find them to where you can take them. And I think when I look back, everybody that's been with us and then has left us have as left to you know, better things. And that's, that's great. You know, it's not like a slight on us. You know, we know what we're about. Some people have moved and become CTOs, know, of large organizations because they prefer to go on the tech route. Other people have left and changed their career completely. They've enjoyed it, but they felt like they want to impact people even more. So I think for Granger Forson: Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: me, for me, it's like the team we have our purpose driven, the people that are in the team are, you know, very, how do you put it? very committed to sort of working with brands and businesses that are shaping the future in a positive sense. And I think anyone that we attract, you know, has to be that way inclined. mean, listen, there's no nothing wrong if someone wants to make as much money as possible and then exit really early, nothing wrong in that, but that's just not us. We're more about how do we, you know, we work with loan, the Marmalade Trust, the Loneliness Trust right away through to, you know, mission-based organization. So for us, it's, we're always reinforcing that life is about impact of people and that's Granger Forson: Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: and those are the team I've got. They're people people I would say. Granger Forson: Yeah, fantastic. the servant leadership stuff was written by Jeff Greenleaf, I believe, you know, and I've read lot of his bits and pieces and articles that he wrote, which was brought together in the Greenleaf Trust and brought the... books together. yeah, very much so. one of our principles at Stronger Business Together is grow your people so they grow your business. know, because business owners, Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Yeah. Granger Forson: can be stuck in that middle thinking we're doing it all, having to do it all. But actually, that's because you've forgotten about the most important people around you. Yes, your people helping you deliver, but they can help you deliver the growth, the opportunity in the business as well. Just untap them. So fantastic. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Yeah, think it's also just just to add quickly that the aspect of when someone does move on and then someone else comes in, they have a different approach in life and might bring new things to the table. And I think that's Granger Forson: Yeah, absolutely. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: and sometimes the way you do things will never change unless the people change and then someone goes, well, if you thought about doing it this way, you know, I didn't think about that. But times and seasons. Granger Forson: Good point, very good point. So let's move on to act two, the journey. We've talked about multiple businesses. So take us through the other businesses and where they came from. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Yeah, so the digital came out as a software company, digital came out of creation. Ultimately, one of my team was offered an extraordinary crazy job for a lot of money. And basically, we made a decision that practically meant you'd have to drive an hour and half there and an hour and a half back. But obviously, the funds were significantly higher than what we could offer. So then what we decided to do is have all about spinning the company out. taking on more technical clients under one roof and set up a company. So that's effectively what we did. So we, me and Andrew's worked together for about four years and then ultimately built out what currently is digital. And then Andrew's ultimately then decided once he started having children, he moved back to Lithuania where he's originally from and just wanted a more simpler life, of a gun for hire than running a company. So. We, you know, we exited, he exited the business and then I bought in someone else called Joe. Another guy, young guy took a great opportunity, contacted me and said, I want to get into social media and marketing, but I'm not so sure, but I need to get a job. And I said, well, if you tried like app design, you know, playing with that. And he goes, well, that seems miles away. And I said, well, there's a platform called bubble. You can build it. It's like building with Lego. Why don't you try it? And we left it. And then I didn't hear from him for like six months. And then randomly he contacted me and said, Hey, Darrell. What you told me to do six months. I've done it. I've done all the courses, done all this. Have you got a project for me? And basically as Andrew's left, then Joe came in. So it was a good seamless transition. Joe and Andrew's worked together for a little bit. now me and Joe worked together quite tightly on a lot of projects. Our creation team do some of the UI, UX stuff. And then Joe does all the build stuff in digital. And then as a result of that, we've picked up a couple of other people to support Joe in delivery. One from a technical perspective and someone else to. to help him from a delivery perspective. And it's worked. So digital really is a natural, almost like a sister company for creation. It's like the brands that want to build technical products, digital build them out, but there's the brand emphasis. And one of the things we help more than anybody is help the people with the creative techie ideas, not to spend all their money on tech, to save it and try and spend it on getting users and building the leanest, cheapest version of their idea in order to get users in. And that's what we do. So. We've heard horror stories, we've had people come to us that spent six figures on an app that doesn't work. Granger Forson: Mmm. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: And a lot of the features are guesswork and you're like, no, you only needed to build one or two and strip it right back. And we've helped people like that. So Innovate UK have contacted us quite a few times What are they called? it'll come later. But it's a government organization that manages all the Innovate UK winners. And one of the things that happens is they didn't tell them what to build and how to build it. So they got the idea and they got the money, but they just don't know what to build and how to build it. So they've been sending people our way and we've been helping them unpack some of their founders, unpack their idea and build it the right way in order to get traction. So that's how digital come about. Two more, humans come about through, humans come about through, I was on the NatWest entrepreneurial hub. and before that was called Entrepreneurial Spark. And one of the guys there essentially oversaw five key areas. So I think it was London, Southampton, Birmingham, Cardiff, and Bristol. And I was in the Bristol hub. And then during the pandemic, we were doing a thing called Humans, which is having human conversations and telling stories. And at the end of basically lockdown, we did it nationally. And I think we had like thousand people on the call, on the Zoom call. When I did a talk, Granger Forson: Wow, well done. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: talk, everybody did a talk. So it's all the hubs came online because we couldn't go anywhere. So at the end of that talk, we were both buzzing about it, me and Ollie and Ollie just said, look, you know, what do you think about turning this into a business? And I thought, well, that's interesting. And then probably about six months previous, we had a conversation about, you a business owner or an entrepreneur? And I settled on that I was an entrepreneur and digital had already been set up. So naturally Ollie approached me with humans with a four in it. So Digital's got a nine in it. Humans now had a four in it. And it kind of like fitted this family. And we launched the business really to help entrepreneurs, business owners be happier, healthier, smarter, and kinder as a leadership, a leadership program. And so we do humans talks, which is people telling stories about their journey so far to inspire and ask questions, but at the same time, feeding them into sort of a leadership program in terms of not losing themselves in the entrepreneurial journey because Ultimately, what people life's great on Instagram or life's great on LinkedIn, but behind the scenes, they're crying, having slept for two days. And interesting Granger Forson: Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: enough, what humans does, certainly the community where people are more honest, they're going actually have the worst month ever. Um, I don't know how to get out of this. If you've got an idea and that's kind of, we support people that way or they're super successful. They've got great clients and then one of their clients decides to move on. And it's like, what do we do now? We've, we're staffed up to the Hill and we haven't got a client and we kind of work with. organizations, both on a startup and entrepreneur's perspective. And then Ollie often goes on a one-to-one or to the, the SLT to educate them, to help them keep going through tough times, but also plan for the future. So that's humans. And that came out of me being on entrepreneurial, thing I was on it for about five years. And then obviously when Ollie then got me involved in business, it was like, probably not the best for me to be on the same course because he was going to leave. and, and so we left it there. And the very last one. It's a film company called Truling Studios. And this is all about telling stories of hope. The idea is, that most people watching TV shows or series or films, and there's not really a great message in there. You know, it's quite depressing. It's got so arty. Some of the subjects are like, what are you talking about? And then ultimately a lot of the films your kids can't even watch. And funny enough, Ryan Gosling, who's just done a film called Project Hail Mary. It's based on the book. brilliant film, I can't recommend it highly enough. But he literally, Granger Forson: Yeah, I loved it. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: he got involved with that project because he said, I wanted to make a film that me and my family could sit and watch together. So that was a five year project for him to bring that to fruition. And that's also where we are with Trubing Films is how do we tell stories of hope, address real life subjects, but ultimately inspire people to get out there and do something about it. And that's ultimately what we've done. So we've got Two projects on the go at the moment. One of them is a TV show called The Chaplain. We filmed eight sizzle reels, about five, six minutes long of each character. We're in the process of editing them. And then we're do a launch at the ICC in Wales and invite everybody we can to try and get the series signed up. So that'd be amazing. And then the other project is we're looking to do a football documentary and we're still in talks. We're still trying to get it happening. So whether it goes this season, it'd be amazing, but it might be next season. But the idea is that watch out, Wrexham, someone else is coming. Granger Forson: Wow, mean, so many different things you're doing. You must have so many different balls in the air juggling everything trying to do that. You know, you're a serial entrepreneur trying to make things happen. What have you learned about yourself when things get hard, when it gets tough in running a business and multiple businesses? What do you do? Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Well, one of the biggest things I did was just before the pandemic, I moved out of the city. I moved into the countryside. And I think when I, when I was in the city, I felt like it was always on. So like literally fully charged. You feel like, you know, like when you, mobile phone goes near a radio and it makes that noise. And it kind of felt like that living in the city. I was like always on and it just, I couldn't switch off. And when we moved out to the countryside, it was like, well, once I shut my laptop or turn the computer off, I'm in a completely different environment and world. And I think probably the biggest thing I did, I didn't know at the time, but I just knew I needed to do it. But in setting multiple businesses up at the minute I switch off, I'm somewhere else. And that, and that for me is the only reason really you can keep going because you're charged. You're in a different environment. You can go out for a walk in the countryside. It's quiet and, it just lets you think and relax and stuff. I think, yes, I still go to London. Yes, I still go to the city. I do enjoy it, but I had this. Contrast which is quite big that actually really helps sustain me for the journey I can't recommend moving to the country highly enough if you're in entrepreneurship because you can Literally reconnect the nature you can go out for a walk you can go and sit and watch a river or whatever to gather your thoughts and I think that's that's Granger Forson: Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: That's what's helped me the most. think just being in a different environment Granger Forson: No, that's totally agree. Totally agree. And my business partner also, my life partner, know, she and I built this business together. We do exactly that. We go for at least two walks a day. We're not necessarily in the countryside like you are. I've been to your amazing place. But, you know, we go walking in nature. We make sure that there lots of trees around us. We're going down by the river. We're having those conversations when we're out and about because it's so important. You need that. That way of just, even though you're still working, just disconnecting from the world while you're thinking and debating and just sometimes just as you say, switching off for that. I mean, I'm interested in business and the growth. You've got these four businesses. What would you do tomorrow if you lost all of your current leads? What would you do for the next 30 days to try and rebuild? Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: I think I would just talk to people. think I've built a very good network of people around me that when I do come up against a, you know, a wall, if you like, or feel like, or which way I find the more conversations you have, the luckier you get conversations, create opportunities. Granger Forson: Mmm. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: And I think that's for me, it's like, you know, if you're not having enough conversation with strangers, I think that's a big clue to the fact that you're not growing. and that's why a network. So You know, when you're going, I've done all this work. I wonder where I'm going to get the next job from. And then you're trying to think of where you're not having enough conversations with strangers. You know, your mom used to say, Hey, don't talk to strangers in business. You have to. Simple as that. Granger Forson: Fantastic. Conversation with strangers. I totally agree. You've got four businesses. There must be so many things that sap the energy from your business at times. What have you removed or outsourced or changed to actually bring energy back into your business? Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: I have a very good, I, you know, I've got a good accountant in the fact that understands multiple businesses and what we're trying to build long-term. had a brilliant accountant for years. and, and now we've transferred into more of a, a group focus and the group setting. and they've, they've really helped me look at, look at life a little bit differently in terms of how you build that way. They're very heavily involved in R and D, which is why we discovered them in the first place. R &D has enabled us, for example, to continue to innovate, but also begin to allow us to get kickbacks to be able to keep developing. So that R &D scheme that the government have in place has been brilliant for us. So that's how we started. And then obviously, because we've got creation, we've got digital, we're now working together in very different fields. It was like, yeah, we need to build more of a group structure for where we want to go taking you forward. Certainly outsourcing sort of like the financial stuff. I mean, we still do a bit ourselves, but that's, that's, that's helped massively because it, you know, there is a lot out there, the complexities of R and D and how it's claimed and the reports we were aware of it. do it every year and we submit, but a lot has changed and they're experts in that. do it for a lot of companies. So once we put R and D at the heart of what we do, then the other stuff would then form around it. So certainly creation and digital, they do a lot of R and D work. always have. And I think, you know, the other businesses will look to explore what we can do because we're always innovating. just, people don't realize that the government encourage it. and, and, Granger Forson: Yeah. Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: and, and so I think what we're doing now is trying to build, yes, I'm trying to build a group, but the heart of the group is that continued commitment to disrupt and learning and stuff. So yeah, outsourcing the finance has been really good. I've also now understood the power recruitment, you know, of outsource recruitment recently, to scale the way we We are, I think I have a great network of people, but ultimately, you know, when you want to scale up page, you need a decent recruiter alongside us. So we've got someone like that now. They're in my network and then they're already, they're already working. They put an ad out and we got crazy amount of applications quite quickly. And, and that's great, you know, to manage that process, to bring it through. I think finance and recruitment are often the two areas that we kind of try and keep in house, but I think you all. And having the right people for the right stage of where your business is at is really important. And I think not everyone will want a recruiter immediately. you go, well, I don't need one. But recruitment in the right place at the right time could be your absolute best ally. And I think for me, I'm learning that now. So yeah, if I'm going to build multiple companies, I've got to learn how to recruit and get the right people in place. We've got great people. Granger Forson: Yep. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: We want to grow those great people. Granger Forson: Absolutely. When you read the biographies of lots of sort of bigger businesses and biggest business owners, they always talk about the two things that they became. They thought they started off being creative or they started off being an accountant or they started off running stores and actually they turned out to be recruiters is their main skill that they learned to bring in place because actually you've got to find that really top talent to help the business grow. talent within the business to help it sustain and then the younger talent to bring that forwards and yeah they definitely there's a real trend in that understanding that that's what you become as you become bigger businesses so fantastic well yeah Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: No, it's a really good point. Really good point. mean, for me, the growth, the recruitment journey, you know, we've effectively made people, as in training them up, them and gave them a career. And I think where we're at now, that's finding it harder and harder due to what we're trying to achieve. We've still got it. We've always got, we've always kind of got this theme running for a business. No one works alone. So one person's working with someone else always. That's how it's worked. you know, and we, and that's how we want to scale. But I think where we are now is we need those, we need those people where know where those people are, you know, so. Granger Forson: Yeah. Well, time's running out. Daryl, we always have these great conversations. Let's move on to Act Three now, our hurdle round. At The Stronger Business Together, we believe in growth through challenge. Life is full of challenges. And the purpose of this is to have a conversation around a challenge in the business. So what have you picked today for us to have a conversation about? Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: I want to, I want to pick up the conversation about using AI to amplify your business strategically. So what I'm finding at the moment is A lot of people are using AI to, you know, smash a flyer out or create a logo of such. And unless you've got those sort of like design principles or understand storytelling, I think I'm finding a lot, you'll see it on LinkedIn, a lot of images now that are generated. or lot of flyrs that are generated. And I'm saying it's almost got to the point where it feels like your LinkedIn feed is flooded with clip art. And for me, it's almost like people are using AI to get stuff done quicker, but no one really wants to consume it. I said this statement, it's like, everyone wants to create using AI, but no one wants to consume it. And I think no Granger Forson: Ha Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: one wants to consume it. It's that it doesn't have any emotion in it. It doesn't have any storytelling in it. And ultimately Granger Forson: Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: you're going to put yourself in it. And so that if you're Granger Forson: Okay. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: to write a blog on chat GPT and, and you prompt it once or twice and go, Oh, I've done a blog. It's going to read very differently. If you write it most yourself and then look to sharpen it out with a lot of stats and stuff. I think it's almost like, I want to help businesses understand the place of AI that it's not the all at all. That's ultimately. Granger Forson: Yeah. Okay. So it's this sort of how do we embrace AI technology within our business without looking like everybody else does? Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Yeah, absolutely. Granger Forson: Because that's what it's going to build that sort of base level that everything looks the same, which you're seeing, as you say, in flyers and things that are coming out now. They'll go, that was AI generated. Okay. So let's talk about your business creation in a moment. Today, how do you use AI within your business? Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Well, the first thing at the moment, I've done a close on 200 podcasts. I've written countless, I don't know how many blogs now, at least 500 blogs over the course of the year. I've written a book, for example. So one of the things I'm doing now is ultimately creating a second brain, which is an AI, an AI term, but it's a second brain that we're building out. So it effectively creates a structure of communication that fits within the way that we look at. And we've already compared it to Claude and we've already compared it to chat GPT and we've asked the same questions and what we're getting out is certainly a hundred percent better using what we've done as a second brain. that's one of the things Granger Forson: Absolutely. Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: that ultimately it's giving people the philosophies and thought process to what we're writing. So if we write something, we can run it through that IA and go, does it reflect the philosophy that we are on? It might bring changes and change it out. So that's, that's one of the things that we're doing now. I think for me, I feel that people are using the AI tools like Claude or like chat GPT. They're trying the different things like image generation or writing content and copy, but they don't really understand the power of prompting and having a conversation. And we almost like they go on prompt free. I'm done now because it saved them time. didn't have to, but if you spent two hours, even though you might've spent six in the past, but spent two hours, your result would be infinitely better. And I think. People see AI as a shortcut to get the job done and unfortunately you still got a lot of work in. Granger Forson: Absolutely. think in any technology change, that's always been the same. I was talking to someone recently about, he remembered when typewriters were replaced by Microsoft Word, you know, but before then even Microsoft Word, there was lots of actually different word processing units, et cetera, that existed. know, only became, Word became the de facto because everybody started using it more and more and therefore became the standard. But then... How much time is wasted in Microsoft Word? People picking fonts and changing this paragraph structure and just adjusting the gaps between lines, et cetera. mean, it's phenomenal. We all do that. While we think that we're being more productive, actually what we're doing is we're wasting more time. Now technology removes roles and changes things. but it can become a massive time waster. And it's the same with AI. Even now, there are articles talking about some of the big companies are actually going to restrict the access to some of their developers, et cetera, to the technology because they're costing too much money. They're even saying, it cheaper now to have somebody in a contact center than using AI because the models are becoming too expensive? So there's always this adoption curve, et cetera, within it. But let's think about our business because that's the question we're asking about you and embracing AI within that. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Yeah. So I would, would, I would argue that embracing AI as a research tool. It's fantastic. using, using someone like Claude as a way of, you know, prompting and understanding the type of documents that you want to put together as a rough outline. think it's great. I think it works. And that's how we often use things. So like, for example, you know, I'll use Claude. If I've got a particular shoot and I'm going to brief it rightly, I use Claude say that this is all the back stuff that I've already prepared. I'm going to present a document Granger Forson: Yes. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: that we've already prepared, shot list and that, how do we do it? Put that in, organizes it all. And then we work through it to make sure it's very clear and we can brief the client. for me, that's how we use it. Granger Forson: Absolutely. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Sharpen up the documents. Granger Forson: So, and exactly that's how we see AI within our business, strong business together. So we start from the point of view, which is interesting because I've seen a number of people that are successful with AI is everything's a process. So understanding the process that we go through and where are the points that we can speed up using AI and where are bits where we still need the right decision-making that we need to take place for what we're doing. So for instance, you've talked about standard documents. So I think it's vital that businesses first of all, create that brain. You've talked about it already, that knowledge bank. You keep that locked away within your environment, whatever that environment is, because there are lots of different ways of creating that. And there are even things like Obsidian that's coming out now, which sort of helps. AIs build these sort of knowledge brain bank things, but you've got it locked away. You control that. You can have AI update it. And then it references that way of working. So if it's, need to do a shoot, reference that material, come back with 20 questions, answer that questions, create the briefing document, then together as a team, as an individual, whatever, we read through that document, update it. And then we learn more. We feed that back into the brain. So. It's a way of speeding up rather than having to spend an hour typing into a document. It's done instantly for us. So there are places where these things can speed up. But if we're thinking about the creative side that you're talking about, there's going to be that opportunity where we can stand out and be different. Because when everybody's the same, so clip art came out, everyone started using clip art, didn't they? Canva came out. Everybody was doing Canva. You could say, that's a Canva thing. That's a Canva thing. Where you can stand out in creation is that ability to say, this is your voice. This is how your voice comes alive. Now, there'll be sections within that where the AI will be useful to you to speed things up, to gather huge amounts of data together, because you could have a huge conversation with a client. You could capture that all in AI. AI could summarize that and turn it into a briefing document that another AI could help you then. show the client the voice story that you're building. So it's about speeding up key points in your process rather than replacing the creativeness of it. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Yeah, I agree. And I think what you'll find is that, you know, we are creators at heart. So what you'll find is the story aspect of things is the thing that gets lost. You know, if you, if you get anything written, it hasn't got storytelling in it. And I think what we do is we've got these four pillars of brand, which is belief belong best and beyond. And that structure doesn't exist. It does exist in our second brain, but it is a structure that based on years of experience and knowledge and understanding of what creates the link between people and a brand and wanting to identify with it. know, belief, you know, people got to believe in what you're telling. So again, these, these ARM ways don't understand how to do that. They didn't have to create belief. It's just factual information and hopefully it does that. So Granger Forson: Yes. Yes. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: you can maybe craft your mission, vision and values, but do you understand it in the context of engaging somebody, how you can help them and take them on the journey? So belief is a person. Yeah. Granger Forson: And good design, whether that's a logo, whether that's a pamphlet, whether that's a website, evokes emotion in people. If you get it right, people feel emotionally moved, whatever that means, because it depends on your story and the business you are, but they feel emotion from that. As you say, AI at this moment in time, who knows what the future will bring when the models get really, really big, but then they're going be hugely expensive. AI can't create that emotion structure. It can just be a copy, an average of five million versions that it's looked at. Where today, even today, even when you've got different brand agencies, you can feel the difference, can't you? I mean, you as a designer, you could look at something and go, wow, that really sparks something where someone else has done it doesn't. And it's that nuance that human brain can bring. So where AI can... give you 20 options, you can then work with it to adjust and to improve and develop and bring the emotion to it. And that's the real point of design is it brings emotion. It's not just the words on the page. It's not just the image. It's the emotion that brings out. And I think that's where really great businesses will be able to do it faster using AI, but they'll still have that emotional impact where everybody else just doing themselves. will get lost, get stuck, won't see the impact, will get fed up that AI doesn't actually help them deliver the new clients that they want. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: I think it's this way. mean, you're like, if you look at someone that's generating a fly with AI, then they generate a second and the third and the fourth. There's no theme there. And so already there's no consistent storytelling. So it gets you out of a hole, but it doesn't build this narrative that you're telling. And I think, you know, I was an art director, so I wasn't a graphic designer, was an art director. So a graphic designer designed stuff graphically to make it look nice. Why is that green? Because it looks nice. Yeah, that's also the main focus. Does it look pleasing to the eye? That's why I'm going to do it. With an art director is saying, well, what's the meaning behind this? Why are you doing it? So it's always a, yeah, if it's green, but why it's green, there's got to be a purpose behind it being green. it because you want to demonstrate the sustainable development goals? What is the meaning behind it? It can't just look nice. So that's where I sit. So there's a lot of graphic designers that go, it's helped me. It's got this whatever. Because I'm an art director, he's always looking for the meaning of something to communicate the concept. That's the key part of what you do. That means I come in at it from the point of view that every single thing that is presented must mean something or drive a decision or amplify a point of the business. So it's about building empathy before demonstrating value. And I think that's what Granger Forson: Yes. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: I'm not seeing with these flyers. It doesn't do that. Granger Forson: Absolutely. And I think that's the difference that you talked about, about building the story of the companies you work from. But then also that's the evolution of maybe your story in creation, which is the evolution of the story against AI. Not as in negative, we don't do AI, but it's AI can't create this. AI can't make this happen. AI can't do this. And here's some case studies. This business never grew. these clients of ours did because we can articulate that story. Yes, we use AI to speed up parts of our processes and take out the drudgery. Nobody wants to sit there and type up notes from a meeting. Yeah, take out the drudgery and can do the analysis because it can read through all of those notes and come up with those key things for us because we've got the brain that helps us sift through all of those notes to find those key elements. which we can then compare against our own thoughts and see if they're the same. So we can do that quicker. So instead of spending two weeks before we go back to the client, we could be turned around in a week or we could turn around in a day. So we're still delivering the same value, but we can deliver that value faster because the aspects of the drudgery of the role can be eliminated or sped up significantly by using AI. And that's the story that you can then start to show and understand. So people go, OK, so it's not instant, but it's two weeks rather than two months. And that's the Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Yeah. Granger Forson: power that you can then bring. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: You before even we even got online, you say, Oh, you turn your podcast around quickly, or we use AI to edit the three different cameras. So it drops it in the time and then we watch it through and just tweak these, you know, the images based on the conversation. You know, yeah, Granger Forson: Absolutely, and that's what I do as well. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: but before you used to manually do that, you used to take ages. So that's why I work. So I'm saying, Granger Forson: Yeah, absolutely. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: I think AI will aid you creatively and it will get you out of hold, but ultimately doesn't have the principles of storytelling in a way that, you know, in a way that is consistent with brand agencies, you know, you've got brand agencies that are out there, they're trying to do things more purposeful, but we've got methodologies that other people haven't, and some people say, so Granger Forson: Yes. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: have we. But the reality is, I know that our methodology brings a result that amplifies empathy, that means the gateway to add in value. And at the moment, people are just going value, value, value, value, and there's no, well, do I even want it? There's no conversation like And I think that's where people that understand brand really, and people that understand, you know, design and the way it should work, design should amplify the empathy piece. It should be good to look at, but still, as you said, spark that emotion that go, I want to find out more about it. that's that, that, that, that's, that's hit me there. I need this or I want this in my mind. Granger Forson: And just take that back to the very beginning of the conversation. You talked about who do you work with? You talk about with business owners that have been going a few years, have started to lose their way. Guess what? They're just going to use AI now. They're still going to lose their way. They're still going to lose that voice and that understanding because they don't have, we'll put it, your AI brain. They don't have your knowledge and capability. All they have is, make this product, I make this service. I'm going to use AI to speed things up. or replace things, make things cheaper, they will get lost in the same structure as they do today. Just like everybody got lost by spending hours working through Word documents and not using it in a fast and efficient way, there's too much there. So that will happen. Absolutely. It's already starting to happen today. You can see it in the world of AI. And what you will have is that ability to bring that skill, that knowledge backed up with AI to make it faster, better, cheaper, but still that huge amount of value which no one else can do because you have that understanding and that's the difference that will take place in the future. There'll be people that think they use AI, there people that have an understanding and then use AI to speed up and they will be the winners, ultimately. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Yeah. You know, AI is about, it's as good as what's put in to what comes out. Ultimately, that's what it is. Like Granger Forson: Yeah, like any computer. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: energy beer, what you put in and what you put out. So, so my point is this is a tool. You might Granger Forson: Yeah. Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: have a better, you might find a better strap line just going for a walk in the countryside, then generating 15 different options through Claude or ChatGPT. You know, that's the bottom line. You go in and go, ah, that's what it is. Cause I, know, I do like it, you know, like I compete, might try it and go, no, they're all rubbish. This is nowhere near what, and because obviously you use it more and it's building the picture of you individually of how you think and how you work. It's still, it's, know, it's still nowhere near what, what it's, what your human brain can come up with. I think it can support you a hundred percent. But as I said before, people don't want to consume it. Granger Forson: Yeah. And that'll mean that you will move up the value chain really, rather than having services in the past of, just build a flyer to actually, you've got those beautiful services already, but it's that, you know, building that Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: It's where you are on the journey. Granger Forson: story and understanding that, and you'll be moving up that value chain to take people up to a much higher level so they can use AI and you can use AI to speed things up, to take away the drudgery. But actually we can spend that more important time on that really important thinking. of what will actually work, what will inspire humans to put their hand up and say, yes, I'd like to work with you. I'd like your services. I'd like to buy from you. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Yeah. And as I said, it's where you are. If you're starting out and you need to get going, it's where you are on the journey. But I think if you're running a five million pound agency, just like investment, if I've got a hundred pounds to invest, I might do it online, but I've got a million pound investing. I want to speak to a human. And that's the reality is, Granger Forson: Yes. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: know, if I've got a hundred quid to spend, I might buy a suit in next, but if I've got a thousand dependency, I'm going to go and see a tailor. That's just generally it. And I think where I think the advantage of AI is for people that we've experienced is their experience will trump what AI is spitting out to ultimately help improve the results of it. But it just amplifies the human experience becomes more costly. And then we start here on AI, because that's the cheap option. And I think some people think, no, that's going to be the most expensive option, and then no one will use it. We go back to humans. Granger Forson: Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: So I think the concept of I can write a blog on AI, great, good. But if I really want a crafty piece of writing, I'm still going to use a human person. And I think it just basically amplifies the cost for using humans, which ultimately will present its own flavor. And she said, if you use a human to do a flyer, it's going to look a lot different than this AI stuff. And it will look unique. And which ultimately what brand is about is about telling stories that capture people's attention. And I think for me, I don't think you, as a designer, need to fear it. think we're looking to build tools that help start up start, but certainly not to replace Granger Forson: Yes. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: certainly not to replace brand in its entirety. It's, you know, my, the second brain that we're building has got stuff in it that, as I said, we we've been using as tools, they're unique, which produces better result, but ultimately we want to help start up stop. But at some point Granger Forson: Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: they're going to want to go through the proper process, if you like the full process with us to get a much better result. I think Coca-Cola ain't going to be using AI for everything. They're going to be employing designers for years. They use AI maybe to get stuff out through the door, but it's almost gimmicky. We built this with AI and it's like, I don't care. You really know what to do. Yeah, the Odyssey's coming out, Christopher Nolan, Granger Forson: It's starting to happen definitely, Yeah. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: an absolutely incredible piece of work. People are to go and watch that because it's done by a human. Yeah, it's filming and trickery and all that. But at end of the day, wasn't someone prompting the hell out of it and go, here we go, watch that. People want to see the craft. They want to Granger Forson: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: know how it's done. And I think for creativities, I never forget the craft. I said, I've been in an industry that died overnight. And it was between print and artwork. So you artwork, and then you would shoot on the camera, and then you'd put it on film, and then that film would make plates. And there's a whole film section where people used to spot it out and. shoot it on camera and lay it on the plate to create the image. And that industry went when the map came out and started going straight to it. And for me, industry's changed. The way we build will change, but ultimately it still needs a human driving it. Otherwise people won't care. People won't... Granger Forson: Yes. Yep. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: this book was written by A. Great, I'm gonna read it. Granger Forson: And I think it was Walt Disney when he was making one of the rides in Disneyland and they had the animatronics. And he said to his designers, he said, no, need three more articulations in that neck. they said, oh, Walt, that's going to cost us a huge amount of money and people won't notice. He said, people feel authenticity. And that's what it will Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Now skip. Granger Forson: always be. you will always know the difference between AI and non-AI. Now, doesn't mean it hasn't been drawn by AI, but behind it is the human thinking, the human activity. brilliant. Well, Daryl, we've got to the end now. We're running out of time on this one. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Awesome. Granger Forson: So let's go to our wrap up and close. Thank you for that great debate. So what did you hear yourself today that maybe surprised you? Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: Ooh, that's an interesting one. What surprised me? I think it's just good to reflect how passionate I feel about, you know, creativity and keeping it human. I think for me, as I said, when I reflect back, it's almost like becoming an advocate, not anti-AI, because I'm not, but AI has its place. And I always remember this one particular thing. I'd spent the day on a Mac trying to come up with this piece of advert, and I was using fonts, I was using colors, and it was dry. creative director saw me out the corner of his eye. And he come up to me with a pad and a pen and he goes, go outside and just think about it and draw it up first. That's a tool, not the tool. And it just stuck with me. And that's where we are with AI. Use your brain, don't let it think for you. You can use your second brain, but just use your brain and go and think, go and walk it through. Think about how a human will wanna be interacted with. And so. I guess what's come out of today is I'm more passionate about it. So maybe that's a new talk that I need to put together. Granger Forson: Brilliant. So Darrell, finally, how can people find out more about you and follow more of your journey? Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: So if you wanna follow my journey, you can find out a lot on my LinkedIn, which is Darrell Irwin, know, LinkedIn slash Darrell Irwin. So I normally post what I'm up to. Yesterday we were driving in the Jeep through the countryside at the Belmont estate, which is quite fun. So you'll see that on there. In terms of finding me, you can find me on creation.co.uk C-R-E-A-I-O-N.co.uk. So that's where I'm at. The digital is DI9. ital.co.uk and then humans is hum4ns.co.uk. So there's a number theme and True Loom is a bit simpler, trueloomfilms.com. So that's where you can find all that. And then lastly, if you haven't, I know we love podcasts, Granger, but my podcast is the Purpose People podcast and you can listen to Granger and me having a decent conversation on there. So that's pretty much where I hang out. I love doing podcasts, Granger Forson: Fantastic. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: love what you do, but if you want to find out a little bit about. actually what I do is a day job, you'll see it on those websites. Granger Forson: Well, Daryl, thank you so much for your open honesty today. It's been a fantastic conversation. I've really enjoyed it. And I know our audience will get an awful lot from it. Thank you. Darrell Irwin – Cre8ion: No, Granger, keep up the good work. I really love the fact that you're giving businesses the opportunity to share their narrative and their story. And you're helping a lot of people get to where they need to get to. So thanks once again for the invite. And I look forward to seeing some more stories and even bring you back for a third time. Granger Forson: Thanks for spending your time with us today. We're on a mission to make business owners stronger together. 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