Latest / Ridiculous History / How Dogs Went Domestic, Part Two: Yes, Dogs Know What You're Thinking

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How Dogs Went Domestic, Part Two: Yes, Dogs Know What You're Thinking · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
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Speaker 1: for tuning in. We are so over the moon to
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Speaker 1: be joined again with our super producer mister Max Williams.
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Speaker 1: He's a wild wolves of love. Yeah, you got three,
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Speaker 1: You got three handsome lone wolves. Here teaming up for
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Speaker 1: part two of How Dogs Went Domestic. They call me
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Speaker 1: Ben Bollen in this part of the world, and you, sir,
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Speaker 1: often go by the sober Kate Noel Brown.
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Speaker 2: 'tis true and I want saw Max Williams drinking a
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Speaker 2: Pina Colada Trader Vicks in His air was perfect.
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Speaker 1: He's got great hair, he really does. That's good. Had
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Speaker 1: hair on it, almost dog like. Oh, we're doing segues.
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Speaker 1: So in part one, we explored the ongoing mystery, the
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Speaker 1: ongoing scientific discourse about how a now extinct version of
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Speaker 1: gray wolves could end up becoming the Great Danes, the
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Speaker 1: Saint Bnad's, the stoutzersund yeah, the bloodhound, uh, the shizoos,
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Speaker 1: the Pomeranians and way to keep it clean with your pronunciation,
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Speaker 1: the Tibetan mastives. Uh. Well, I have a shazoo in
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Speaker 1: my family. Uh, and I just can't believe you.
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Speaker 2: The guy. I just can't believe you had squander an
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Speaker 2: opportunity to say, just to say the dirty way.
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Speaker 1: I have too much respect for him. The only thing
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Speaker 1: I don't like about that dog is that his name
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Speaker 1: is Leo, which is technically a terrible name for a dog.
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Speaker 2: My name is practically Leo in reverse. Yeah, think about it,
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Speaker 2: You're like a Leon. I'm a you know, it's funny.
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Speaker 2: I don't think we're gonna get into this too much today,
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Speaker 2: but it may well be fodder for a third episode
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Speaker 2: maybe down the line. But all of the crazy in
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Speaker 2: breeding that goes into dogs that yield some of these
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Speaker 2: creatures that you know, maybe shouldn't quite exist and that
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Speaker 2: have like some pretty significant challenges. Let's just say, like
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Speaker 2: the humble bulldog that really can't breathe super well.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, nor reproduce that well. This is an excellent setup, Noel.
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Speaker 1: Please tune into part one, where we explore, as three
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Speaker 1: huge fanboys, the story of wolves to Dogs. This is
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Speaker 1: part two. We teased it a little bit, but we're
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Speaker 1: not going to leave you hanging without a dope beat
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Speaker 1: to step two. It's time to talk about domestication. Step two,
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Speaker 1: Step two, step two, Okay, Part two.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and many times in Part one have really thrown
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Speaker 2: my support behind this discussion of domestication. It is an
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Speaker 2: often misunderstood concept.
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Speaker 1: We sort of hinted at some of the early forms.
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Speaker 2: Of domestication that were a little more circumstantial. I believe
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Speaker 2: it was commensial domestication, which is basically just like circumstances
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Speaker 2: that yet yielded some changes, but not with the a
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Speaker 2: the abject intervention of humans quite yet, which is what
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Speaker 2: we're getting to now.
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Speaker 1: That's what I was just sort of throwing around, Yeah,
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Speaker 1: commensal domestication, meaning our earlier exploration, the idea of domestication
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Speaker 1: as a two way streak. Check out our earlier stuff
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Speaker 1: They don't want you to know episode regarding the idea
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Speaker 1: that plants may have domesticated humans. And as we'll see,
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Speaker 1: maybe the wolves turning into dogs had a little bit
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Speaker 1: of a pushback or touch on their human pals as well.
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Speaker 2: The Oxford English Dictionary what a tone defines domestication thusly
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Speaker 2: the process of taming an animal and keeping it as
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Speaker 2: a pet or on a farm. But as we indicated
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Speaker 2: more than once in Part one, That is an incredible
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Speaker 2: oversimplification of the concept because we even had a whole
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Speaker 2: section about like, what's the difference between taming and domesticating,
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Speaker 2: and they're not exactly the same. So I don't know, Oxford,
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Speaker 2: I think we might need a little bit more context here.
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Speaker 1: Yes, swing in a miss oed with all due respect,
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Speaker 1: swing and a miss whiffed on that one. Domestication is
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Speaker 1: not taming. Taming an animal refers to the process of
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Speaker 1: training a non human animal to be comfortable around humans,
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Speaker 1: to follow certain basic commands. This is often done with
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Speaker 1: wild animals to make them more manageable and less aggressive.
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Speaker 1: You can see so many videos of this on your
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Speaker 1: favorite social media platform of choice, your TikTok, your Instagram,
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Speaker 1: your YouTube. We've befriended a wild hip? How told this
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Speaker 1: hip how to leave amongst us?
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Speaker 2: We boas or in the Seminole two thousand's nature documentary
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Speaker 2: by our boy Werner Herzog grizzly Man, wherein that type
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Speaker 2: of thinking, spoiler alert ends up with the humans being
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Speaker 2: brutally devoured eaten by wild bears because they're not super.
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Speaker 1: Good candid for domestication, are they No, they're not old,
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Speaker 1: They're good candidates for taming, and we'll see the difference here.
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Speaker 1: Another good comparison would be the crows that I have
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Speaker 1: befriended in various parts of the world. Like, clearly those
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Speaker 1: guys are wild animals. They're savage af but they are
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Speaker 1: they They are intelligent, and they can work together with
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Speaker 1: humans on certain things, but they are by no means.
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Speaker 2: Domesticated, especially when you raise both arms up like the
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Speaker 2: night king and they just flock to you and do
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Speaker 2: your bidding.
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Speaker 1: Oh that's because I have eggs in my pockets. Oh yeah,
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Speaker 1: I was wondering what that sound was. So this idea
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Speaker 1: of taming an animals, it's not going to change the
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Speaker 1: animal's genetic makeup or its behavior. Instead, it occurs on
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Speaker 1: an individual level. Again as a two way street. You're
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Speaker 1: you're teaching me be one grizzly bear raised as a
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Speaker 1: cub to respond in a non threatened, non threatening way
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Speaker 1: to one human. But if that bear has a cub,
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Speaker 1: that cub is going to be Like my old college
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Speaker 1: roommate said savage.
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Speaker 2: Af absolutely, And like I said, with the Timothy Treadwell example,
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Speaker 2: that was the titular grizzly man.
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Speaker 1: You know, he had really good experiences kicking it with
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Speaker 1: grizzlies in the wild, and he felt that his behavior
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Speaker 1: and the way he was interacting with them was conducive
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Speaker 1: to good like symbiotic relationship with them until the moment
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Speaker 1: that it wasn't. He wasn't exactly training them. He was
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Speaker 1: just sort of like living amongst them, and it seemed
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Speaker 1: like it was going fine until the moment that for
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Speaker 1: whatever reason, that wild instinct kicked in and things went
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Speaker 1: very poorly for the grizzly man. But his acclimating himself
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Speaker 1: I could make himself expressactly. And this also we just
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Speaker 1: have to put the PSA in here, folks. A wild
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Speaker 1: animal being acclimated to human contact can be dangerous for
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Speaker 1: all life forms involved, one hundred percent.
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Speaker 2: And I mean, you know, let's maybe give slight benefit
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Speaker 2: of the doubt to Oxford the folks who find folks
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Speaker 2: over the Oxford English Dictionary taming on a long enough
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Speaker 2: timeline through multiple iterations and generations.
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Speaker 1: I guess is a better word is kind of domestication,
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Speaker 1: you know, can be right?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I love we're going to get eventually
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Speaker 2: into some of the very important qualities that make an
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Speaker 2: animal domesticatable.
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Speaker 1: I'm not I can't wait to get to it. Heart.
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Speaker 1: That just really blew my mind. I'm super excited, all right.
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Speaker 1: So domesticating animals not taming them. Right, you can tame
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Speaker 1: a wolf, you cannot domesticate a wolf. When people attempted
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Speaker 1: to tame wolves or domesticate them over time, they ended
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Speaker 1: up with dogs. So it involves our earlier conversation about
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Speaker 1: artificial the natural selection selective breeding. Just like Gregor Mindel
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Speaker 1: figured out with those peapods over many generations, you can
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Speaker 1: you can kind of decision tree reproduction to have a
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Speaker 1: higher probability of exhibiting traits that you perceive as desirable,
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Speaker 1: which is why domesticating an animal will change its genetic makeup,
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Speaker 1: meaning it changes its physical and behavioral traits. Domesticated animals
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Speaker 1: are often dependent upon humans for their survival. They've adapted
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Speaker 1: to living in close proximity to humans the same way
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Speaker 1: that a hippopotamus has adapted to living around water.
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Speaker 2: Well, and while domesticated animals certainly there is a possibility
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Speaker 2: that they could do okay, if they were to be
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Speaker 2: let's say an indoor outdoor cat, right, it could go feral.
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Speaker 2: They could go feral, or they come back and everything's fine.
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Speaker 2: It just kind of depends on what happens out in
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Speaker 2: the wild.
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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And cats are a special case, perhaps an
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Speaker 1: episode for another day, because oh man, people loved cats.
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Speaker 1: People still love cats, even not counting toxoplasmosis. Gandhi, that's true.
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Speaker 2: You get what I'm saying, though, Ben, Like, is there
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Speaker 2: something that in like, let's say you adopted a cat
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Speaker 2: from being wild, like a cat that was like, you know,
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Speaker 2: born feral, and then you, I guess the term would
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Speaker 2: be trained that cat, and then it were to be
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Speaker 2: released out in the wild. Would it immediately go back
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Speaker 2: to its wild roots or would it retain the kind
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Speaker 2: of training or I guess sort of domestication light that
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Speaker 2: you imparted on it.
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Speaker 1: It's a fascinating question. One one good avenue for us
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Speaker 1: to explore that through would be the case of the pig.
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Speaker 1: A pig is domesticated at least twice throughout human history
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Speaker 1: and spread around the world. But we know well when
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Speaker 1: pigs are released into the wild or when they escape,
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Speaker 1: they can quickly return to their natural behavior. They'll grow hair,
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Speaker 1: they'll grow the tusk starts to resemble more of a
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Speaker 1: wild bore, just so, and reproduce with such The key
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Speaker 1: difference between taming and domesticating animals is, honestly the level
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Speaker 1: of human intervention. You can tame individual animals relatively quickly,
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Speaker 1: depending on the animal and depending on your own vibe
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Speaker 1: check role for initiative. But domestication is, to your point,
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Speaker 1: a long term process. It requires multiple generations, breeding, selection,
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Speaker 1: artificial kind of stuff.
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Speaker 2: Well, that's right, and chance and the cat scenario that
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Speaker 2: I was describing, whether the cat being astray isn't the
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Speaker 2: same as a cat being wild?
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Speaker 1: Right? No, there are Again, I feel like we should
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Speaker 1: make a different episode on the housecat. In general.
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Speaker 2: The house is sort of a special case, isn't it,
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Speaker 2: even even in terms of a lot of the stuff
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Speaker 2: we're talking about here, Yes, very much.
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Speaker 1: So, And maybe we think of it this way. Taming
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Speaker 1: is not to go back too far into my hip
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Speaker 1: hop roots, but taming is an each one, teach one situation. Right,
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Speaker 1: If you make friends with that grizzly bear, it might
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Speaker 1: not be friends with other humans just over the jump.
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Speaker 1: When it reproduces, the creatures it makes will be wild.
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Speaker 1: Domestication is a group effort, and it has serious genetic,
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Speaker 1: physiological and as we'll see today psychological changes to a species.
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Speaker 1: That's right. Let's see.
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Speaker 2: We've got a great line from archaeologist Angela Perry of
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Speaker 2: the University of Nevada in Las Vegas, who commented on
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Speaker 2: the improbability of hunter gatherers abducting and taming wolves, right,
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Speaker 2: which we had already said in the first episode was
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Speaker 2: kind of a debunked more or less debunked version of events.
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Speaker 2: Here this is what she had to say. I don't
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Speaker 2: know that many hunter gatherers would have had the time
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Speaker 2: or patience.
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Speaker 1: To deal with a wolf pup. We kind of talked
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Speaker 1: about that too in part one, and I don't know
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Speaker 1: why they would want to.
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Speaker 2: Sorry, we really did kind of lean pretty heavily into
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Speaker 2: that at that point in history. It would have been
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Speaker 2: massively inconvenient to do any of those things because it
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Speaker 2: would have required so much attention, so much again training,
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Speaker 2: and without the proper knowledge on how to go about
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Speaker 2: these things, you'd have basically like a little predator amongst you.
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Speaker 1: It would also be at that point extremely inconvenient to
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Speaker 1: stay alive as he without without having you know, man's
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Speaker 1: best friend. But thank you to any ancient communities who
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Speaker 1: are somehow alive and listening to podcasts. Thanks for giving
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Speaker 1: us dogs. Domestication gives superpowers in a kind of Faustian bargain.
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Speaker 1: We know that wolves and dogs again can indeed reproduce.
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Speaker 1: You know, this is where you get wolf dogskoi dogs,
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Speaker 1: things like that, coy dogs being coyote and dog wolf
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Speaker 1: dogs being wolves and dogs. But we also know that
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Speaker 1: a domestic dog from the day it is born shows
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Speaker 1: marked differences to every other single kind of canid out there.
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Speaker 2: Sure, and I'm sorry, I keep coming back to this
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Speaker 2: because i know it's different, but I'm getting what your
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Speaker 2: meaning when you're talking about the housecat. Even a quote
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Speaker 2: unquote domesticated housecat when exposed to like prey, well tear
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Speaker 2: that stuff up, you know, like an absolute apex predator,
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Speaker 2: whereas a you know, domesticated dog kind of just once is.
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Speaker 1: Kibbles, you know. Yeah, Well, I mean house cats have
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Speaker 1: it both ways, almost right, m Yeah, again, very different case.
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Speaker 1: They're they're kind of bracketed with an asterisk in the
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Speaker 1: story of domestication. If we're going to dogs, we're gonna
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Speaker 1: look at something like there's this excellent study cooperative communication
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Speaker 1: with humans evolved to emerge early in domestic dogs. Many
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Speaker 1: authors on this you should be able to find it online.
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Speaker 1: The lead author is Professor Hannah Solomon's and she shows
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Speaker 1: us that dogs genetically evolve to interact with humans at
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Speaker 1: a level most other non human animals will simply never reach.
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Speaker 1: Take a dog that's born, take a wolf that's born.
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Speaker 1: The dog puppy is going to naturally be more attracted
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Speaker 1: to humans.
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Speaker 2: And I do have to wonder if that is in
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Speaker 2: some part one of the those sort of I guess
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Speaker 2: perfect storms of evolution, where that original sort of genesis
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Speaker 2: breed of gray wolf that was just a little bit
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Speaker 2: more kind of predisposed to being chill with humans. If
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Speaker 2: that made such a if that made all the difference.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Also, dogs are excellent at vibe checks. Dog puppies
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Speaker 1: will use gestures that humans can understand, verbal and nonverbal.
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Speaker 1: They'll make eye contact. They do something called extended gaze
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Speaker 1: way more often than wolf puppies, like, for instance, uh,
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Speaker 1: you know, the best way to end your life in
16:42
Speaker 1: in an interaction with a gorilla is to make eye contact.
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Speaker 1: It is seen as a challenge. They will mop you
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Speaker 1: you can't do it. But but if you if you
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Speaker 1: make eye contact with a dog, then it sees your
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Speaker 1: soul everywhere, or put your finger out so boopit with
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Speaker 1: its nose.
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Speaker 2: But you know, all along in this conversation, from the
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Speaker 2: very start, we did talk about similarities in the way
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Speaker 2: that early humans and wolves hunted. So I do think
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Speaker 2: that there is sort of a chicken or egg question
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Speaker 2: here where were they domesticatable because they already kind of
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Speaker 2: shared some traits, you know, in the way they communicated
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Speaker 2: with one another and the way they executed their hunts.
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Speaker 2: Just some things that were sort of aligned already with
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Speaker 2: the two species humans and wolves.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Like I was saying in part one, I
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Speaker 1: think the ven diagram is our key piece of the puzzle.
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Speaker 1: If we go to folks like Robert Quinlan, professor of
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Speaker 1: anthropology over at Washington State University, will see the argument
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Speaker 1: that this domestication process, this coevolution occurred because like the
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Speaker 1: rom Com example, wolves and humans already had so much
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Speaker 1: in common. They probably started domesticating each other accidentally in
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Speaker 1: fits and starts. Wolves were scavenging the remains of human kills,
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Speaker 1: and they probably kicked off the domestication process themselves. It
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Speaker 1: probably was not a case of a enterprising human killing
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Speaker 1: a wolf pack and saving the cubs. They would have
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Speaker 1: just eaten the cubs. I think it's tremendously presumptuous for
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Speaker 1: us to assume humans would have had the foresight to say, Hey,
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Speaker 1: let me take the child version of this thing that
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Speaker 1: almost killed me and fall asleep around it. Just roll
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Speaker 1: the dice, see what happens. The wolves probably were probably
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Speaker 1: the initiators one hundred percent. I just wanted to use
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Speaker 1: this as a quick opportunity. I think we've discussed this
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Speaker 1: on this podcast as well as on stuff that I
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Speaker 1: want to know. But the notion of feral children and
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Speaker 1: of the idea of like children being raised by wolves,
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Speaker 1: which has kind of become a bit of a parlance,
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Speaker 1: you know, just like of like a wild child or whatever,
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Speaker 1: pretty much entirely debunked. Right.
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Speaker 2: We do have a case of sisters Amala and Kamala
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Speaker 2: who were found living, you know, rough in the wilderness
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Speaker 2: in India. They were described in scientific writings at the time.
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Speaker 2: I guess, you know, results may vary in terms of
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Speaker 2: how vigilant the science was, but in nineteen twenty six
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Speaker 2: is having been quote unquote.
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Speaker 1: Raised by wolves in the forests of India.
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Speaker 2: But again, much more likely that they were early examples,
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Speaker 2: early documented examples of autism.
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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, we do know that. I'm glad you're bringing
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Speaker 1: this up. We do know there are examples of quote
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Speaker 1: unquote feral children who were taken care of by animals,
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Speaker 1: but those are exceedingly rare. The times that those things
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Speaker 1: may have happened, they gave way to a thousand ships
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Speaker 1: of folklore and mythology like Romulus and Remus. That would
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Speaker 1: be the earliest example, right of humans raised by wolves.
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Speaker 1: And yeah, so it's extremely uncommon for that to occur.
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Speaker 1: We do know that domestic dogs right now are more
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Speaker 1: vigilant than wolves, and they were bred to be increasingly vigilant.
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Speaker 1: This is where we get to, I would say, a
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Speaker 1: morally or ethically gray part of the equation. Domestication does
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Speaker 1: give you superpowers, but it is also a Faustian bargain
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Speaker 1: because were these early humanmans that were breeding dogs to
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Speaker 1: be useful to them? Were they not programming those dogs
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Speaker 1: with more anxiety than the dogs would have had they
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Speaker 1: if they stayed wolves? How are the dogs always like,
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Speaker 1: what's happening?
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Speaker 2: What? Yeah?
21:16
Speaker 1: Whoa? Whoa? Yeah, what's going on? Also, dogs learned a
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Speaker 1: language that wolves don't speak. Dogs bark. Dogs can howl
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Speaker 1: just like a wolf, some of them at least, But
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Speaker 1: wolves don't bark. That's true. They growl and they howl,
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Speaker 1: but I don't think I've ever heard a wolf bark.
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Speaker 1: Seeing them bite, that's yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, their bite
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Speaker 1: is worse than their bark. So we also see that.
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Speaker 1: You know, there's this earlier point raised about domestication as
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Speaker 1: a two way street. You can argue that the wolves
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Speaker 1: evolving to dogs that process, they also evolve to hack
22:02
Speaker 1: human psychology. Sure that the infantile features, the fancy work
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Speaker 1: for it is pedamorphic, the.
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Speaker 2: You know, the the qt eyes that a dog will
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Speaker 2: make looking up at you all forlorn or you know,
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Speaker 2: excited or whatever, like its actually its master's feet. Certainly,
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Speaker 2: things like fetching you know, a stick or whatever, various
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Speaker 2: adaptations that make them more appealing to humans because over
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Speaker 2: time those yielded positive survival based results.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we don't have to just speculate about dogs
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Speaker 1: for this. We can see a pretty fantastic experiment from
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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties that proves this can happen with other
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Speaker 1: things similar to dogs. We know about the Russian scientist
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Speaker 1: Dmitri Belyev, who started he captured a bunch of silver
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Speaker 1: foxes like Richard Gere right, right, he got a bunch
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Speaker 1: of zaddies or whatever whatever you wish you add. These
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Speaker 1: were foxes that would have ordinarily been captured, bread for
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Speaker 1: a bit and then skinned in a fur farm. And
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Speaker 1: he said, what if I what if I try to
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Speaker 1: selectively breed them and make a domestic fox? If I
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Speaker 1: make them tamer over time, over each successive generation. And
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Speaker 1: he did just what the what we think the early
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Speaker 1: humans did. He chose foxes that were bold enough to
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Speaker 1: be around humans, not timid enough to run away, but
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Speaker 1: not too aggressive to instantly bite them in the throat.
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Speaker 1: He chose for tolerance and lo and behold. Over time,
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Speaker 1: these foxes became tamer. However, they also got their floppity
23:59
Speaker 1: ear yep, and the early Q tales, Yeah, yeah, they
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Speaker 1: got They got cuter, they became kawhi. I was about
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Speaker 1: to say the same thing, then, oh, my goodness got
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Speaker 1: of my head. That's amazing.
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Speaker 2: No, but also that I have to ask, though, why
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Speaker 2: don't we hear about domesticated foxes that much? No, I
24:17
Speaker 2: don't know anybody that has a domesticated fox as a pet.
24:19
Speaker 2: This experiment not last.
24:22
Speaker 1: It did last. I will give you the answers, though, uh,
24:26
Speaker 1: first and foremost they're kind of clamped down on. It's
24:31
Speaker 1: a little bit difficult to get one, especially if you
24:35
Speaker 1: want to make a breeding population. Here's what I think.
24:39
Speaker 1: The real answer is, fox urine smells terrible. Really, it's
24:45
Speaker 1: so bad, okay, huh, astonishingly repugnant. I had no idea,
24:52
Speaker 1: and you know that's glad. I'm glad. Don't experience no
24:54
Speaker 1: no fox, just wave taking a picture and go, I'll
24:58
Speaker 1: give it a pass.
24:59
Speaker 2: I can't help though, in talking about this experiment here
25:03
Speaker 2: and thinking about one of our very first Ridiculous History
25:06
Speaker 2: episodes where in Napoleon got absolutely inundated by domesticated bunny
25:12
Speaker 2: rabbits mob who yeah, mobs, you know, like totally almost
25:15
Speaker 2: knocked over his coach and his carriage and all that.
25:18
Speaker 2: Because you'll remember if old school Ridiculous History heads that
25:24
Speaker 2: they were domesticated, therefore they feared no human. In fact,
25:28
Speaker 2: they loved them just so much and just wanted to
25:30
Speaker 2: snuggle up on them, as opposed to a wild hair
25:33
Speaker 2: which would of course run from the humans and give
25:36
Speaker 2: chase and be a much more fun experience for a hunt.
25:40
Speaker 1: Get it wild hair, Yeah, I got it. So this
25:45
Speaker 1: guy when he creates these foxes, he notices the bark boar,
25:51
Speaker 1: and he also notices that they tend to reproduce more often.
25:57
Speaker 1: These foxes indeed had a lot of the same qualities
26:01
Speaker 1: we see in dogs, but none of the same qualities
26:05
Speaker 1: we see in wolves. Retaining these juvenile features to your
26:10
Speaker 1: earlier point, it is evolutionarily advantageous. Look at those eyes.
26:15
Speaker 1: Trust me say the features. I'm rolling around my belly
26:20
Speaker 1: when my cute little tail help me. Love me this
26:24
Speaker 1: it's not manipulation either. It's like behavior that just becomes
26:29
Speaker 1: innate over time because of the positive results that it yields. Right,
26:33
Speaker 1: the dogs are the foxes that can do this, are
26:37
Speaker 1: capable of doing this, They're the ones that are more
26:40
Speaker 1: likely to reproduce. This brings us to another superpower of
26:44
Speaker 1: the dog, a superpower of domestication, facial expressions. If you
26:51
Speaker 1: are in love with dogs and you got a pooch
26:54
Speaker 1: that is very close to you, and you always think,
26:57
Speaker 1: how does this how's this little doggo know what's going
27:01
Speaker 1: on with me? How does this guy read the room. Uh.
27:06
Speaker 1: It turns out it's the ven diagram thing. Again. Wolves
27:09
Speaker 1: and humans use facial cues when they are communicating in
27:14
Speaker 1: their social environment and their cohort.
27:17
Speaker 2: Uh.
27:17
Speaker 1: But the ability to read facial cues in humans is
27:22
Speaker 1: incredibly enhanced in domestic dogs. That's where they do like
27:27
Speaker 1: Gaye alternation. So if you, like, if you've ever seen
27:31
Speaker 1: a dog who is trying to get you to help
27:33
Speaker 1: them solve a problem, they might stare at you and
27:37
Speaker 1: just keep flicking their eyes over this way, like, what's
27:41
Speaker 1: over there? What's going on over there? It's bro, you've
27:48
Speaker 1: got thumbs man, Well, you know it's funny.
27:51
Speaker 2: A minute ago I said that this behavior wasn't necessarily manipulation,
27:55
Speaker 2: but that I don't know.
27:56
Speaker 1: I think to me, that opens up a bigger question.
27:58
Speaker 2: It's almost like, even we as humans, is anything we
28:01
Speaker 2: do towards anybody showing signs of affection, is that ultimately
28:05
Speaker 2: just manipulation to get what we want? If you look
28:08
Speaker 2: at it and dissect it and cut it enough ways,
28:11
Speaker 2: the answer could be yes. So the question then becomes
28:14
Speaker 2: like our dogs, actually, do they care about us?
28:18
Speaker 1: Or are we just a means to an end for them? Right? Yeah,
28:21
Speaker 1: It's a question that plagues all living things. Does altruism exist? Right?
28:28
Speaker 1: So do you want the best for another living thing
28:33
Speaker 1: in the void of reality or do you only do
28:37
Speaker 1: that because you want the best for yourself? You know
28:39
Speaker 1: what I mean? Yeah?
28:40
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you could argue, maybe it's a
28:42
Speaker 2: bit of a nihilist way of looking at it, that
28:44
Speaker 2: any act of kindness is ultimately an act of selfishness
28:47
Speaker 2: because you're doing it to either make yourself feel better
28:50
Speaker 2: or to improve your standing and be seen in a
28:54
Speaker 2: certain way. You know, I don't think that's true. I'm
28:57
Speaker 2: just saying this is getting me thinking about stuff.
28:58
Speaker 1: Like that, that's all Youah, No, I like it. Let's
29:01
Speaker 1: walk a little further down then, because you could argue
29:04
Speaker 1: in that vein that the best contrast to that would
29:07
Speaker 1: be the fact that people sometimes help other folks with
29:13
Speaker 1: no external benefit. A lot of folks who are tuning
29:17
Speaker 1: in tonight, of course you're the best audience in all
29:20
Speaker 1: of podcasting. Yea, You've helped this stranger who may have
29:26
Speaker 1: never met may have never met you, you may never
29:29
Speaker 1: meet them. You felt better, and so optimistic nihilism might
29:35
Speaker 1: argue that you did that because it made you feel good. Still, externally,
29:40
Speaker 1: you have no benefit. You simply helped another thing that
29:44
Speaker 1: exists for sure, And I will say that I think
29:48
Speaker 1: the psychology of the human experience is arguably a little
29:52
Speaker 1: more complex than that of the canine experience.
29:54
Speaker 2: So I think for some people that internal treat is
29:59
Speaker 2: maybe just as power for the dog the external treat.
30:02
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, humans are at a great disadvantage because they're
30:07
Speaker 1: studying themselves. I would love to hear cognition, yeah, thinking
30:12
Speaker 1: about thinking, that's metacognition. I would love to hear from
30:16
Speaker 1: a canine psychologist, from a canine behavioral therapist. Right, why
30:23
Speaker 1: does man fetch? I did see a headline the other day.
30:26
Speaker 2: I did not read past it, but it said that
30:29
Speaker 2: it within a decade or so, we may have technology
30:32
Speaker 2: will allow us to quote unquote speak to our pets.
30:35
Speaker 1: Yes, there are things that are quite controversial now, usually
30:40
Speaker 1: paw pads where the dog can hit can hit a
30:44
Speaker 1: button that will translate to a human noise like walk treat,
30:49
Speaker 1: et cetera. However, it's still pretty dicey because it goes
30:55
Speaker 1: back to the days of chickens and horses counting in carnivals,
31:00
Speaker 1: which parlor trick which was a parlor trick. Absolutely, we're
31:04
Speaker 1: probably going to be able to talk to cetaceans. First.
31:08
Speaker 1: There's some really interesting whale I can't believe I'm saying
31:13
Speaker 1: this on air. Whale translation apps, okay, are are being made,
31:19
Speaker 1: uh bray world, maybe in a positive sense for this,
31:22
Speaker 1: I don't know why not Right at the end, you
31:25
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Right at the end, we'll get
31:27
Speaker 1: some cool stuff. Uh the end of the podcast or
31:30
Speaker 1: the end of the world, you know, nothing else. Yeah,
31:34
Speaker 1: right right at the beginning of the end of the world.
31:36
Speaker 1: I think our podcast is going to go on for
31:38
Speaker 1: a while, onish on that. Yeah, until the end of
31:41
Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, I hope. So, I hope you feel
31:45
Speaker 1: the same way.
31:45
Speaker 2: You know I do.
31:46
Speaker 1: Oh, I very much do. I would love to.
31:48
Speaker 2: I would podcast with you from the deck of the
31:50
Speaker 2: Titanic Ben Oh geez.
31:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, we got to get a violin guy to play too.
31:55
Speaker 1: I can play the violin. I'll be I know, I
31:57
Speaker 1: can be the guy. I could be both guys. So
32:01
Speaker 1: all right, here's the craziest thing. You may be a
32:04
Speaker 1: dog lover, and you've maybe never heard this. We said
32:08
Speaker 1: dogs understand things that other non human animals don't. Dogs
32:13
Speaker 1: understand when you nod, and they understand why you're nodding,
32:18
Speaker 1: and they follow the direction in your face. Dogs are
32:21
Speaker 1: one of the only non human animals that understands what
32:25
Speaker 1: you mean when you point at something. A lot of
32:29
Speaker 1: other primates here us closely primates don't understand pointing. You could.
32:36
Speaker 1: You could be hanging out with a gorilla. Again, no
32:39
Speaker 1: eye contact, be safe. You could point at something and
32:42
Speaker 1: it would just be like this loser, I got fingers too.
32:45
Speaker 2: I think that Coco the gorilla could understand pointing pretty
32:48
Speaker 2: well though, if I'm not mistaken.
32:50
Speaker 1: Ah, Coco can understand hand signals.
32:53
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, picture you know if you're right, though, Ben,
32:57
Speaker 2: the idea of pointing, we think of it as obvious, like, Okay,
33:01
Speaker 2: if I'm pointing my finger out a thing, you should
33:03
Speaker 2: direct your gaze to that. But without that context, maybe
33:07
Speaker 2: it is a little more abstract. Given it credit, they're like,
33:12
Speaker 2: these guys are doing weird stretches. But for whatever reasons,
33:17
Speaker 2: You're right, dogs will direct their gaze in the direction
33:21
Speaker 2: of the point.
33:22
Speaker 1: Yeah. Dogs can read the room, just like most humans
33:26
Speaker 1: who are not on four chan. They walk down the
33:29
Speaker 1: street for that.
33:30
Speaker 2: One yeah, manbit hole, and know we got to get
33:34
Speaker 2: to something called the love hormone. Well, this is I think,
33:38
Speaker 2: really really key in what makes dog goes so incredibly
33:44
Speaker 2: appealing as companions to human beings. The idea that a
33:48
Speaker 2: dog can sense the emotional state of a person and
33:54
Speaker 2: act accordingly or react accordingly.
33:57
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, part of it is the amazing sense of smell,
34:01
Speaker 1: the hyper focus on your nonverbal expressions or body language. Also,
34:08
Speaker 1: domestic dogs and their human pals have something called oxytocin.
34:14
Speaker 1: This is why I don't want to answer pomorphize too much,
34:21
Speaker 1: but this is why when you see cute things, you
34:25
Speaker 1: think they are cute if you are human. When you
34:28
Speaker 1: see like we're describing, right, the big eyes, the big ears,
34:32
Speaker 1: the tiny mouth. Yeah, I mean there's a reason that,
34:41
Speaker 1: you know, depending on who you are.
34:43
Speaker 2: Most people think babies are cute because we're supposed to
34:46
Speaker 2: like love them instantly and want to protect them at
34:49
Speaker 2: all costs. And them being cute and having those doe
34:53
Speaker 2: eyes or whatever. It is a I guess not skill.
34:56
Speaker 2: Well as you call it adaptation, maybe that makes that
35:00
Speaker 2: more likely.
35:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, So your dog friends are so sensitive to everything
35:06
Speaker 1: about you when they see you smile. Get this, They
35:10
Speaker 1: understand that you are happy, and if you do a
35:13
Speaker 1: fake smile, they'll probably know you're faking it. It makes
35:17
Speaker 1: them happy to see you happy, and then it makes
35:21
Speaker 1: you happy to see them happy. You get a feedback loop.
35:25
Speaker 1: Next thing, you know, you have a bro for life.
35:28
Speaker 1: It's a real love fest.
35:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think this is the real
35:31
Speaker 2: crucial feature that makes that bond between a dog and
35:36
Speaker 2: they're human so incredibly strong and so incredibly traumatic when
35:43
Speaker 2: when a beloved dog passes away, because it's like losing
35:46
Speaker 2: a member of the family, it's like losing someone that
35:49
Speaker 2: you actually have an emotional connection with. Because of these
35:52
Speaker 2: exact things that you're describing.
35:54
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, one hundred percent, well said. We know
35:58
Speaker 1: the psychological ass there, We know the adaptations of domestication.
36:05
Speaker 1: They extend to physiological aspects beyond what you would call
36:13
Speaker 1: retention of juvenile traits. Dogs have developed facial musculature in
36:19
Speaker 1: their evolution. It's one of the things they could do
36:24
Speaker 1: is furrow the brow, you know, tilt the head. I'm confused,
36:27
Speaker 1: what's going on? Where is the ball?
36:30
Speaker 2: The term puppy dog ey speaking of like domestication of
36:33
Speaker 2: humans by dogs. That's become a term that is applied
36:37
Speaker 2: to the way humans look at each other, making puppy
36:40
Speaker 2: dog eyes when you want someone to feel a certain way,
36:45
Speaker 2: whether it's a little kid that's trying to get a
36:47
Speaker 2: certain reaction out of their parent. But you're right, then
36:49
Speaker 2: those changes in muscles and actual a development of new
36:53
Speaker 2: muscles and the ability to control them is part of
36:56
Speaker 2: that long game of evolution and domestication.
37:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're right. No, if you we found a
37:04
Speaker 1: fascinating study. If you go to an animal shelter, and
37:10
Speaker 1: you always should, it's it's a fun way to volunteer,
37:13
Speaker 1: you will see that dogs who have puppy dog eyes,
37:18
Speaker 1: who have that stereotypically worried or sad expression as humans
37:24
Speaker 1: experience it, they are adopted more quickly, which again shows
37:29
Speaker 1: us that ancient selective advantage. They are genetically programmed to
37:36
Speaker 1: hack the human mind. Unfortunately, this does come with a
37:41
Speaker 1: bit of a price. Go back to our hippo example.
37:46
Speaker 1: If a hippo as tame as it could be is
37:51
Speaker 1: abused by humans, it's not going to mess with humans
37:56
Speaker 1: again in a non confrontational way. It is going to
38:01
Speaker 1: hate all humans because it will recognize a threat, but
38:05
Speaker 1: a dog amid so many other animals in this wide world,
38:10
Speaker 1: a dog can be abused by one group of humans
38:14
Speaker 1: and then instantly bond with another group of humans, for sure.
38:20
Speaker 2: But then on the flip side of that, I have
38:22
Speaker 2: I had a situation where a girl I was dating
38:26
Speaker 2: at the time lived with, you know, a couple of folks,
38:28
Speaker 2: and one of them had a dog who was a
38:30
Speaker 2: rescue as a pit and hated to me. He had
38:33
Speaker 2: been well, it was more than that, he hated bearded dudes,
38:37
Speaker 2: and they had to put this dog o away every
38:41
Speaker 2: time I came over, and over the course of that relationship,
38:45
Speaker 2: I was able to kind of, you know, earn the
38:49
Speaker 2: dog's trust, but it was very innate, like it was
38:53
Speaker 2: specifically singling out me as a bearded man because they
38:56
Speaker 2: said the person that had him before was a bearded man.
38:59
Speaker 1: Was a real, real pill. Well, you reached a ceasefire, though,
39:05
Speaker 1: what you couldn't do with a with a wild animal
39:07
Speaker 1: with most other animals, right, I got in a situation
39:11
Speaker 1: with a parrot one time, and she's terrifying. Yeah, Well,
39:15
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest with you. As a lover of
39:18
Speaker 1: all animals, I wish that parrot specifically the worst. Yeah,
39:25
Speaker 1: just that one little more bird hate. Come on, man, No,
39:28
Speaker 1: just that one. There's just that one. But also we
39:32
Speaker 1: have to see that there is a higher tendency toward
39:36
Speaker 1: conflict avoidant behavior towards humans on the part of a dog,
39:41
Speaker 1: and there's this increased inclination to want humans to like you,
39:47
Speaker 1: or at least certain humans to your earlier example, perhaps
39:51
Speaker 1: most different from wolves in the psychological aspect. Dogs are
39:56
Speaker 1: a big fan of learning human rules and remembering those
40:01
Speaker 1: rules and following those rules all for the approval and
40:07
Speaker 1: consistent food from the humans. And we are coming right
40:12
Speaker 1: up on I think what will be my favorite part
40:15
Speaker 1: of this entire series. Forgive me, Ben, I've teased it
40:18
Speaker 1: multiple times, but I think it's been clear throughout all
40:21
Speaker 1: of our discussions that there are certain animals that are
40:24
Speaker 1: much more inclined towards domestication. And it's because of certain
40:30
Speaker 1: traits that they kind of innately have just by virtue
40:34
Speaker 1: of being what they are, that makes them more likely
40:37
Speaker 1: candidates for domestication. Yes, more domesticatable. God, I love how
40:43
Speaker 1: ridiculous the English language is. Yeah, it's exceedingly rare to
40:49
Speaker 1: domesticate a non human animal. Lets you know what, let's
40:54
Speaker 1: go right to it. Professor Jared Diamond over at UCLA,
40:59
Speaker 1: probably famous for his book Guns, Germs and Steel. We
41:04
Speaker 1: know it's a little controversial. He is a prominent author
41:08
Speaker 1: in the vein of Mark Kurlansky or our buddy ve
41:11
Speaker 1: All Noah Harari mre that sapiens of course.
41:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, fabulous, fabulous writer, really great way of crystallizing some
41:19
Speaker 2: pretty lofty concepts in a very understandable way.
41:23
Speaker 1: So Professor Diamond, which is such a ridiculously cool name.
41:27
Speaker 2: One, if he's related to Dustin Diamond, if you saved
41:30
Speaker 2: by the bell he was screech.
41:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, he screech has been through it also would be
41:36
Speaker 1: cool to call him doctor Diamond. But no, this is something,
41:40
Speaker 1: as you said, we're both very excited about. According to
41:45
Speaker 1: Professor Diamond, there are six basic criteria for domestica dobility,
41:53
Speaker 1: which again English language, Oh yeah, gotta love it.
41:56
Speaker 2: The first one I think we've we've made really cleared
41:58
Speaker 2: just this in this discussion, and it makes a whole
42:00
Speaker 2: heck of a lot of sense. The animal needs to
42:02
Speaker 2: be able to eat lots of different things and be
42:05
Speaker 2: kind of malleable in that, you know, not needing to
42:09
Speaker 2: have food from a certain type of source every single time,
42:12
Speaker 2: be willing to.
42:13
Speaker 1: Like the early wolves, the pre dog wolves live off
42:17
Speaker 1: of the scraps of humans. Yeah, no, picky eaters. And
42:22
Speaker 1: number two, the animals need to grow up quickly or
42:26
Speaker 1: at least faster than humans and often faster than their
42:31
Speaker 1: wild counterparts. Going back to our example about the the
42:35
Speaker 1: silver or Finnic foxes, think about it. You know again,
42:39
Speaker 1: you're a hunter gatherer, you're classic human, live in your
42:43
Speaker 1: classic human life. There's not really a good return on
42:48
Speaker 1: investment for you to domesticate very long lived animals like
42:54
Speaker 1: a galapago sea turtle. Oh yeah, it wouldn't take or
42:59
Speaker 1: it would just take too damn long. How are you
43:00
Speaker 1: gonna do that? It's gonna be years before they're useful,
43:04
Speaker 1: their reproduction cycle is off. And then also a lot
43:09
Speaker 1: of animals don't like to breed when they feel like
43:12
Speaker 1: they're in jail.
43:13
Speaker 2: Ben I gotta ask really quickly. Just to backtrack, you
43:15
Speaker 2: mentioned tortoises with the long lifespan. Elephants is another thing
43:19
Speaker 2: that the good Doctor Diamond mentioned. So does that mean
43:22
Speaker 2: there was really no such thing? As war elephants like
43:24
Speaker 2: we know them in you know, Roman battle scenarios like
43:30
Speaker 2: illustrations and stuff, because was that a real thing?
43:33
Speaker 1: Great question. Elephants African and Asian are phenomenally intelligent. They
43:40
Speaker 1: are incredibly smart, smarter than dogs if we're being honest.
43:44
Speaker 1: But they are not domesticated. They can be tamed, and
43:50
Speaker 1: they are often forced into interactions in human society in
43:56
Speaker 1: places like Thailand. Gotcha, you know?
43:59
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is more of a training situation, right,
44:02
Speaker 2: you know, like you know now that I think about it,
44:04
Speaker 2: that they often offer like elephant rides at zews. I
44:08
Speaker 2: think I did that when I was a kid. You know,
44:10
Speaker 2: whatever ethics aside on that, but that makes a lot
44:12
Speaker 2: of sense, pained, but not domesticating, that's right, because again,
44:15
Speaker 2: the domestication is the sort of long term version of
44:19
Speaker 2: the taming that requires reproduction over you know, many generations
44:24
Speaker 2: for it to kind of take and to the point
44:26
Speaker 2: of the long lifespan.
44:27
Speaker 1: That is what makes these animals particularly poorly suited to
44:31
Speaker 1: this kind of thing. Also, the third condition, and again
44:35
Speaker 1: this is from Professor Diamond, the animals have to be
44:39
Speaker 1: willing to breed in captivity in close quarters under human supervision.
44:45
Speaker 1: So if you have a bunch of tigers, right, tremendously
44:50
Speaker 1: intelligent animals. I mean, they're not as smart as an
44:53
Speaker 1: elephant maybe, but they are smart cookies. They are boffins.
44:58
Speaker 1: They need a lot if you put them, If you
45:02
Speaker 1: just put them in a tiny, like human sized room
45:05
Speaker 1: and say, okay, live together, have a issue, Yeah, we're good.
45:12
Speaker 2: You know that's true of even just breeding in general
45:15
Speaker 2: in captivity of the certain species. I heard a really
45:17
Speaker 2: great piece on NPR a couple of months ago about
45:20
Speaker 2: how difficult it is to breed eels in captivity, and
45:24
Speaker 2: they are only a handful of folks, companies or what
45:27
Speaker 2: have you that have kind of this proprietary method of
45:31
Speaker 2: farming eels and breeding them in captivity, because they actually
45:34
Speaker 2: typically the largest source of eels you know that we
45:37
Speaker 2: see in things like sushi are fished wild, and there
45:42
Speaker 2: is an overfishing problem with eels because it is so
45:44
Speaker 2: difficult to breed them in captivity.
45:46
Speaker 1: And they have a very sensitive reproductive cycle as well. Yeah,
45:51
Speaker 1: this leads us to what I would call a soft
45:56
Speaker 1: proposition on diamonds, part number four. Noel, tell me what
46:01
Speaker 1: you think about this. The animals have to be quote
46:05
Speaker 1: naturally pleasant.
46:06
Speaker 2: Well, that's an interesting thing because all along we've been
46:09
Speaker 2: talking about sort of the nature of that first I
46:12
Speaker 2: keep calling it sort of the genesis of the dog,
46:15
Speaker 2: that gray wolf species that meet cute, that meet cute.
46:19
Speaker 2: Where they were kind of a little more chill. It
46:21
Speaker 2: would seem that they that particular subs breed or subspecies
46:25
Speaker 2: or whatever you want to call it. It's probably something
46:27
Speaker 2: specific to call it, but I'm not a scientist. So
46:30
Speaker 2: there was something about their constitution or their kind of
46:34
Speaker 2: demeanor that led it to them being a perfect candidate
46:37
Speaker 2: for ultimate domestication. But it's tough because it's like pleasantness,
46:41
Speaker 2: it's very vague. But let's just qualify that a little
46:45
Speaker 2: bit calmness. Natural calmness certain animals that are skittish or
46:51
Speaker 2: easily spooked, for example, that doesn't bode particularly well for domestication.
46:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, so number four is naturally pleasant. Number five called
47:01
Speaker 1: keep your head and your wits about you right when
47:03
Speaker 1: these crazy humans are asking you, you know, to fetch
47:08
Speaker 1: them a ball. The number six is one of the
47:13
Speaker 1: most I think behaviorally important. The animals need to be
47:17
Speaker 1: willing to recognize humans as part of their in group
47:23
Speaker 1: as part of their hierarchy.
47:25
Speaker 2: That's right, And you know even with certain zoo animals,
47:28
Speaker 2: we know that is a thing that doesn't work with
47:31
Speaker 2: certain types of animals, Like I believe in China there
47:34
Speaker 2: is a zoo or maybe this is common practice where
47:37
Speaker 2: in order to raise certain types of pandas, the zoo
47:39
Speaker 2: keepers dress up as pandas themselves, Yeah, in order to
47:42
Speaker 2: handle them correctly. And that may well be like they
47:45
Speaker 2: just don't want them to get too imprinted by humans.
47:49
Speaker 2: So I'm not one hundred percent sure exactly what the
47:51
Speaker 2: endgame there is, but to your point, like, we do
47:54
Speaker 2: know that there are certain animals that are much more
47:58
Speaker 2: likely to be imprinted by humans and other ones that
48:01
Speaker 2: really resist it.
48:03
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, we got a deal on the costumes, thanks
48:07
Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos. And with this, folks, we have so many
48:12
Speaker 1: other questions and bits of ridiculous history to explore. This
48:17
Speaker 1: conversation about dogs has inspired us. We're gonna be making
48:21
Speaker 1: some episodes about dog breeds as well. Please send us
48:26
Speaker 1: your favorites. We will probably also bust some myths about
48:30
Speaker 1: dogs along the way in future episodes. In the meantime,
48:35
Speaker 1: thank you so much for tuning in Big big thanks
48:38
Speaker 1: to our super producer, mister Max Williams, who has been
48:41
Speaker 1: a little bit off mic for this episode. That's okay,
48:45
Speaker 1: we're just getting back from the holidays.
48:46
Speaker 2: We're all getting our sea legs back underneath us. And
48:49
Speaker 2: I think you still sore at us for pointing out
48:51
Speaker 2: the dog stats.
48:52
Speaker 1: I am yeah, okay, dude, okay, all right. I got
48:58
Speaker 1: a way slowly like Homer Simps than another bush ido.
49:01
Speaker 1: But you turned your camera on. That's good.
49:03
Speaker 2: You'd love to see a beautiful faces and the huge
49:06
Speaker 2: thanks to to a producer, Max Williams. Again, if you
49:08
Speaker 2: already said it, I'm sorry I got distracted. Huge thanks
49:11
Speaker 2: to Alex Williams who composed our theme. And by the way,
49:15
Speaker 2: if you do want to reach out to any of
49:17
Speaker 2: the three of us, except for Max because he's off
49:19
Speaker 2: the social media.
49:20
Speaker 1: You can't do so. Ben, How can people find you
49:22
Speaker 1: if they so wish on the internets? Ah? Yes, further
49:26
Speaker 1: into the breach, should you sip the social meds. You
49:30
Speaker 1: can find me calling myself in a burst of creativity
49:32
Speaker 1: at Ben Bullen on Instagram. You can find at Ben
49:36
Speaker 1: Bullen hsw on X. You can also visit benbullin dot
49:41
Speaker 1: com if you want to catch up with high Jinks,
49:43
Speaker 1: Shenanigan's scenarios and adventures, and while you're snarios. While you're
49:50
Speaker 1: up there, why not check out my good pal Noel
49:53
Speaker 1: Brown's social media presence. Noel, are the rumors true? Are
49:58
Speaker 1: you on Instagram?
49:59
Speaker 2: All? Lie?
50:00
Speaker 1: That's that's true. That's the only place I really hang out.
50:01
Speaker 2: You can find me there at how now, Noel Brown
50:04
Speaker 2: and Ben Can I also just thank you for this
50:06
Speaker 2: incredible deep dive on the history of domestication and really
50:10
Speaker 2: just on doggoes in general, really really excellent work on
50:14
Speaker 2: the super in depth research briefs. It so joy to
50:19
Speaker 2: discuss this with you, and I'm happy to be back
50:21
Speaker 2: after a sizeable break. I think we both enjoyed the recharge.
50:24
Speaker 2: But we're back and we're better than ever and excited
50:28
Speaker 2: for a new year.
50:29
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, thanks for saying that, Noll. It does mean
50:31
Speaker 1: the world big thanks of course to Eve's Jeffcoat Chris
50:35
Speaker 1: Frosiotis the Brew Dudes a ridiculous crime? And if you
50:39
Speaker 1: disagree with my palell Nol regarding this episode, please please
50:44
Speaker 1: please always remember we started a complaint department just for you.
50:49
Speaker 1: Twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, anytime
50:53
Speaker 1: of the year. We actually recommend sending it late at night.
50:58
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland at iHeartMedia dot com our official complaint department.
51:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll definitely write you back, no question. We'll see
51:08
Speaker 2: you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
51:17
Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
51:20
Speaker 2: your favorite shows.